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WickedSteel
09-18-2011, 09:33 PM
I know I will get flamed for this and ripped up and down but I'm saying it anyway.

A lot of you are going on about how the Steelers are "back to form" and that last week was just a "off day".

I'm here to say that there was nothing impressive at all out there today. The Seahawks are BAD, really bad. They have little in the way of offense and even less in the way of defense.

Mendy and Redman broke some runs today but they got stuffed quite a bit too. Mendy was dancing around in the backfield a lot, looking for a hole that wasn't provided by the O line. The Steelers were inside the 10 twice and came away with 3 points. They continue to struggle near the goal line and have no answers for it.

Ben got beat up again today. I didn't watch last week's game but from what I have heard, Ben was destroyed handily by the Ravens. He goes from one of the best defenses in the league to one of the worst and continues to get pounded. Your $100 million QB should not be taking that abuse. He is one blindside sack away from another concussion or major injury that could end his season or career.

Sure, the D got a shutout but it is Seattle that we are talking about! It is extremely difficult to shut out any NFL teams but it is far from being really impressive. I mean, we're talking about Tavaris Jackson and Golden Tate here! I'll give them props but it was nothing earth shattering.

Receivers looked good today in spite of Ben throwing numerous high balls their way. Wallace's impressive finger tip catch and Ward's tip toe catch were especially impressive. Sanders also had a good game again and Brown was visible.

The whole point is that Seattle is NOT Baltimore. Baltimore is a contender and Seattle is not. If Flacco could carve up the secondary like that, how are they going to stop Brady when he comes to town? He may well set the single game passing record against us! They will also have to face Shaub and a new Matt Hasselbeck, not to mention the Titans' front 7 which will likely be in Ben's grill all day.

The Steelers have MAJOR issues right now and it doesn't look good. Maybe they will find ways to fix them but then again, maybe not. They will have serious problems against contender teams if they can't find ways to correct their shortcomings. The "explosive offense" that was supposed to take pressure off an aging D is not looking very good right now. The O line was a concern all through the off season and it is rearing it's ugly head already just two games in.

ETL
09-18-2011, 09:49 PM
Wicked - basically this was a no-win game for the Steelers. If we win like we did - we basically did what we were supposed to do but it proved nothing. If we win by a slim margin, then people would still find us to be weak. If we lost, then the sky was falling.

tony hipchest
09-18-2011, 09:53 PM
oh well.

some people will never be happy.

on to the colts.

beating them will be insignificant as well. :rolleyes:

big pig
09-18-2011, 10:06 PM
I have to agree a little, but then the Ravens go and loose to the Titans, go figure. They still got a W, They never got in a real rythem

WickedSteel
09-18-2011, 10:07 PM
That's the point. The Steelers were supposed to at least CONTEND with Baltimore and they got smoked. The Steelers are always expected to beat bottom feeders but that won't win championships.

From what I see, going all the way back to last season, the Steelers will struggle against teams with great pass rushes and against teams with great O lines and passing games.

Even if the Steelers beat the Manningless Colts next week, some will crow about how they are back on track and beating "good" teams. The wins mean nothing unless they are against contender teams.

You can see what great teams do to bottom feeders and how they play against other great teams. Just look at the Pats. Totally blow out the Fins and then roll over the Bolts as well.

Sure the main reason for last week's debacle was the turnovers but there was no offense out there.

They need to find a way to fix these problems fast. I don't care if they need to find a FA O lineman or what, just fix it or Ben will end up on the shelf possibly forever.

Fire Arians
09-18-2011, 10:11 PM
all of our issues won't be fixed in 1 week. team just looks rusty and needs to get on the same page, they should by midseason.

we will have to look better than we did today to beat the texans, but i'll worry about the colts for now. they are 0-2 and probably feel like they have nothing to lose, those are the kind of teams that could give you trouble if you look past them.

davidtrout
09-18-2011, 10:11 PM
A lot of you are going on about how the Steelers are "back to form" and that last week was just a "off day"

Really? I'm not going to sift back through every thread, but I don't recall anyone saying that.

I'm here to say that there was nothing impressive at all out there today

Really? Nothing at all? Not a single thing? Shutout? No turnovers? Double time of possession? Crossing midfield only once? No? Natta, zilch, zippo?

The whole point is that Seattle is NOT Baltimore. Baltimore is a contender and Seattle is not.

Well, there's some news.

The Steelers have MAJOR issues right now and it doesn't look good.

What exactly do you want? All they can do is work toward executing their game plan each given week. They did that pretty well today, I thought. You can say it was just Seattle, but Seattle was the only team they played today. What else could they do? Next week is a new team and the only team that matters right now. No matter how hard you may wish it, the Steelers CAN NOT beat the Ravens, or Patriots, or Packers, or Texans, or '85 Bears, or '72 Dolphins this week. So, you're just going to have to wait a while to be impressed.

drizze99
09-18-2011, 10:35 PM
Today's win was not all that impressive at all. 24-0 over the Seahawks? We should have beat them 48-0. I wanted to see a team impose their will on them but it felt like we were in cruise control doing enough to win. I wanted to see us beat down the Hawks like the Ravens beat us down. This win is NOTHING to brag about. I refuse to get that "warm & fuzzy" feeling and think that we're back in business. Tomlin and staff still should have concerns on both sides of the ball.

I really hate how we never seem to take advantage of situations. For example, today we knew going to into the game that the right side of the center had rookies. Both guard and tackle are rookies and we make them look like heroes. I would have blitzed my ass off to that side of the ball. Exploit your opponents weakness. To me, that was a glaring weakness.

tony hipchest
09-18-2011, 10:38 PM
What exactly do you want? All they can do is work toward executing their game plan each given week. They did that pretty well today, I thought. You can say it was just Seattle, but Seattle was the only team they played today. What else could they do? Next week is a new team and the only team that matters right now. No matter how hard you may wish it, the Steelers CAN NOT beat the Ravens, or Patriots, or Packers, or Texans, or '85 Bears, or '72 Dolphins this week. So, you're just going to have to wait a while to be impressed.

:applaudit: well said, mr trout.

i think some people are hoping for, or waiting for a single win that will erase the horrible pain and humiliation they feel from losing last week to the ravens.

but theres not a single game that can do that, and mike tomlin acknowledged as much in his post game presser.

ultimately we're fans of a team where the superbowl is the standard. we could go undefeated for the rest of the regular season and it wouldnt mean jack squat towards erasing the week one loss, if we didnt win it all.

JustinM
09-18-2011, 10:39 PM
[I]No matter how hard you may wish it, the Steelers CAN NOT beat the Ravens, or Patriots, or Packers, or Texans, or '85 Bears, or '72 Dolphins this week. So, you're just going to have to wait a while to be impressed.

I want a win against the '72 Dolphins by next week!

Atlanta Dan
09-18-2011, 10:45 PM
They held a NFL team scoreless and covered a 14 point spread

Could they have played better - yes - but you could say that about every team that won today

MACH1
09-18-2011, 10:46 PM
:applaudit: well said, mr trout.

i think some people are hoping for, or waiting for a single win that will erase the horrible pain and humiliation they feel from losing last week to the ravens.

but theres not a single game that can do that, and mike tomlin acknowledged as much in his post game presser.

ultimately we're fans of a team where the superbowl is the standard. we could go undefeated for the rest of the regular season and it wouldnt mean jack squat towards erasing the week one loss, if we didnt win it all.

Sure there is.
We can return the favor next time.
:helmet:

Atlanta Dan
09-18-2011, 10:49 PM
You can see what great teams do to bottom feeders and how they play against other great teams. Just look at the Pats. Totally blow out the Fins and then roll over the Bolts as well..

Maybe we should wait until they play the games in January before we call the Patriots "great"?

Walk me through what the Patriots have accomplished since beating San Diego in the AFC championship game in January 2008

As Ed. B,. of the P-G wrote today, nobody wins the Super Bowl in September

http://plus.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/pro-sports/steelers

And by saying we should note how the Pats play against "other great teams" are you calling the Chargers a great team?:toofunny:

Sixburgher
09-18-2011, 10:53 PM
Maybe we should wait until they play the games in January before we call the Patriots "great"?

Walk me through what the Patriots have accomplished since beating San Diego in the AFC championship game in January 2008

As Ed. B,. of the P-G wrote today, nobody wins the Super Bowl in September

http://plus.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/pro-sports/steelers

And by saying we should note how the Pats play against "other great teams" are you calling the Chargers a great team?:toofunny:

As someone here recently and very astutely pointed out, the Patriots are as deeply in the heads of many Steeler fans as the Steelers have been in the heads of many Ravens fans.

Fire Arians
09-18-2011, 11:11 PM
As someone here recently and very astutely pointed out, the Patriots are as deeply in the heads of many Steeler fans as the Steelers have been in the heads of many Ravens fans.

at least the ravens fans can cling onto the fact that we usually split the season with them. the patriots are a team we NEVER beat, unless brady isn't playing. that one time we beat a team led by him it didn't matter. early in the season and they came back to smoke us when it mattered most (AFCCG)

yeah i'll admit it, the pats are definitely in my head.

Sixburgher
09-18-2011, 11:13 PM
at least the ravens fans can cling onto the fact that we usually split the season with them. the patriots are a team we NEVER beat, unless brady isn't playing. that one time we beat a team led by him it didn't matter. early in the season and they came back to smoke us when it mattered most (AFCCG)

yeah i'll admit it, the pats are definitely in my head.

When's the last time the Ravens beat us in game that "really mattered", in other words, a playoff game?

Fire Arians
09-18-2011, 11:16 PM
When's the last time the Ravens beat us in game that "really mattered", in other words, a playoff game?

I don't know, but I'm sure a lot more recently than the last time we even won a less meaningful game against the pats. When was the last time we beat a brady-led team? I was still in the military when it happened, so im guessing a long time ago (not gonna look up the exact date).

and all division games are important. sure we have their number in the playoffs but at least they can say they win games vs us once in a while. we can't say the same about the patriots and brady

Sixburgher
09-18-2011, 11:20 PM
I don't know, but I'm sure a lot more recently than the last time we even won a less meaningful game against the pats. When was the last time we beat a brady-led team? I was still in the military when it happened, so im guessing a long time ago (not gonna look up the exact date).

and all division games are important. sure we have their number in the playoffs but at least they can say they win games vs us once in a while. we can't say the same about the patriots and brady

Try never. They're 0-3 against us in the postseason. And we don't play the Pats twice a season either. Before last season, we hadn't played the Patriots with Brady since 2007. And before that, we hadn't played them since 2005, and we gave them that game on that stupid lateral attempt by Randle El.

GMU Steeler
09-18-2011, 11:21 PM
When's the last time the Ravens beat us in game that "really mattered", in other words, a playoff game?

I am almost positive they've never beaten us in a playoff game. Thing is when they usually beat us it's either early on the season like this and last year or really late in the season when we're resting our starters. Their fans make a lot of noises about how we never blow them out like they have us this year for example and in 2006 both games but that's ignoring the fact that we have a 60% winning percentage against them and that's not even mentioning the fact we've beaten them twice in the playoffs.

Fire Arians
09-18-2011, 11:21 PM
Try never. They're 0-3 against us in the postseason. And we don't play the Pats twice a season either.

that's a good thing because that'd be 2 automatic losses for us

difference between the pats-steelers and steelers-ravens matchups is the ravens win some of them, and when they lose usually play well enough to keep it close. we usually are on the wrong side of an ass raping with a baseball bat wrapped with barbed wire when facing the patriots

Navy86
09-18-2011, 11:23 PM
So, we lose to the Pats...a couple of other games maybe...don't care. Get into the Playoffs and take it from there. The bottom line is we won the game we were supposed to, and we'll win some others we are supposed to. I'm fine w/ that. I'm not going to go into the fetal position and start sucking my thumb because we aren't perfect. I sure as heck am going to enjoy the win, though, and yes, we are back to form...the form of winning and that is what matters.

Sixburgher
09-18-2011, 11:28 PM
that's a good thing because that'd be 2 automatic losses for us

difference between the pats-steelers and steelers-ravens matchups is the ravens win some of them, and when they lose usually play well enough to keep it close. we usually are on the wrong side of an ass raping with a baseball bat wrapped with barbed wire when facing the patriots

Yeah, you're right. They're definitely in your head.

Moose
09-18-2011, 11:36 PM
Exactly Wicked ! I'm glad we got the win, a win is good anyway you get it, but I'd like to see a good performance and some good rhythm. I just don't feel comfortable with this team yet. They were lucky on interceptions, which Ben would have had 2 if not for the dropping by Seattle, they couldn't score from the 1yrd line on 1st down....which I'm almost positive that Ben could have punched it in on 2 or 3 tries. But instead we come away with NO points. Wallace was the only player that looked 'pumped' out there. There just doesn't seem like there is any determination, emotion, rhythm or whatever out there on the field. Just going thru the motions...so to speak. There should have been at least another 14+ points scored. Hopefully they find their mojo within the next few weeks, because I could see a team with a mediocre defense putting it to them like the ratbirds did. GO STEELER's.

steeltheone
09-19-2011, 12:34 AM
Great job Steelers...I think we all know Seattle is horrid but we will take it!

Danny136200
09-19-2011, 12:50 AM
I know I will get flamed for this and ripped up and down but I'm saying it anyway.

A lot of you are going on about how the Steelers are "back to form" and that last week was just a "off day".

I'm here to say that there was nothing impressive at all out there today. The Seahawks are BAD, really bad. They have little in the way of offense and even less in the way of defense.

Mendy and Redman broke some runs today but they got stuffed quite a bit too. Mendy was dancing around in the backfield a lot, looking for a hole that wasn't provided by the O line. The Steelers were inside the 10 twice and came away with 3 points. They continue to struggle near the goal line and have no answers for it.

Ben got beat up again today. I didn't watch last week's game but from what I have heard, Ben was destroyed handily by the Ravens. He goes from one of the best defenses in the league to one of the worst and continues to get pounded. Your $100 million QB should not be taking that abuse. He is one blindside sack away from another concussion or major injury that could end his season or career.

Sure, the D got a shutout but it is Seattle that we are talking about! It is extremely difficult to shut out any NFL teams but it is far from being really impressive. I mean, we're talking about Tavaris Jackson and Golden Tate here! I'll give them props but it was nothing earth shattering.

Receivers looked good today in spite of Ben throwing numerous high balls their way. Wallace's impressive finger tip catch and Ward's tip toe catch were especially impressive. Sanders also had a good game again and Brown was visible.

The whole point is that Seattle is NOT Baltimore. Baltimore is a contender and Seattle is not. If Flacco could carve up the secondary like that, how are they going to stop Brady when he comes to town? He may well set the single game passing record against us! They will also have to face Shaub and a new Matt Hasselbeck, not to mention the Titans' front 7 which will likely be in Ben's grill all day.

The Steelers have MAJOR issues right now and it doesn't look good. Maybe they will find ways to fix them but then again, maybe not. They will have serious problems against contender teams if they can't find ways to correct their shortcomings. The "explosive offense" that was supposed to take pressure off an aging D is not looking very good right now. The O line was a concern all through the off season and it is rearing it's ugly head already just two games in.

Dude, Ben got sacked twice, and only got hit three times, wanna compare that to last week? I just tink that you are fixated on the Ravens game last week, we did our job.

tony hipchest
09-19-2011, 01:34 AM
its a shame the steelers have to play a full slate of 16 regular season games w/o giving the fans the instant gratification they so deserve, with a superbowl game in september.

we all better start apologizing for having to play the manningless colts, now.

DanRooney
09-19-2011, 01:49 AM
We all knew this before the game, though it was great that our D shut out the Seahawks offense.

Our real victory was Baltimore losing to Tennessee. That was absolutely huge for us.

LVSteelersfan
09-19-2011, 01:52 AM
We beat a terrible team by shutting them out. They got across the 50 yard line one time. What do you people want? I realize the red zone stuff still sucks but it has for years because of a terrible O-line. The Ravens got beat by a crap team today. So we are now tied for the lead with everyone else in the division. Winning the division is the most important part and it only took one week to get back to a first place tie. Baltimore has the tie breaker right now, but that could easily change by the time we play them in our next matchup. I am keeping the faith until we are completely done. The Patriots and Texans could easily kill us but that is not a given either. I think we are better than some are willing to give them credit for but not as good as we should be. One game at a time. If we beat the Colts you know it will be reported that it is only because Manning is not there. But who cares. A win is a win on the way to becoming a playoff team no matter how bad the teams we play are. We have a lot of crap teams on the schedule this year.

tanda10506
09-19-2011, 02:02 AM
I don't think the Steelers are "back to form" just yet, but they played pretty well and got back to winning. We should beat the Manningless Colts and back to back wins against any team will give you confidence. As far as saying that there was nothing impressive, there was, it's just not deemed impressive because it's against the Seahawks. Anytime you shut out an NFL team that's impressive, Lynch is a good RB and he had no success today, and the offense played pretty well. 22/30, 298 yards, a touchdown and no picks, that's pretty good passing. Mendenhall and Redman played well. Overall, I'm still worried about our O line a lot, Foster had a great block and it seemed like they are getting better run blocking, but the pass blocking is still horrible. The only reason we weren't getting hurried and sacked more is because Seattle isn't that good, if that was the Jets or Ravens Ben would have been running a lot more. It's possible that the line will improve the more they play, and Gilbert played well, the more he plays he might turn into a solid point on the line like Pouncey is now. Another thing I'm still worried about is the lack of pass rush. Polamalu looks to have his timing back, Gay played pretty well and Taylor has been playing well so far, if we can get some pass rush from our heavily payed outside backers that are known for getting pass rush, then we will play much better against passing teams. It still didn't seem like the team was playing with any passion/intesnsity, even the announcers mentioned that. I know it's hard to get pumped up for the Seahawks, but this team has to get back to playing "pumped up" football where everyone is flying around cracking heads and making plays. All that said, I'm pretty happy about today's game. We missed a few opportunities but overall we handled the game the way we should and made progress.

tony hipchest
09-19-2011, 02:04 AM
We all knew this before the game, though it was great that our D shut out the Seahawks offense.

Our real victory was Baltimore losing to Tennessee. That was absolutely huge for us.

when you say "our" and "us" in this context, are you referring to the players or the fans (or do you consider them one in the same)?

because the REAL (meaning things that really happen in the real world according to people tapped into reality) victory for the team and players was beating the seahawks.

DanRooney
09-19-2011, 02:09 AM
when you say "our" and "us" in this context, are you referring to the players or the fans (or do you consider them one in the same)?

because the REAL (meaning things that really happen in the real world according to people tapped into reality) victory for the team and players was beating the seahawks.

Right the Ravens losing to the Titans was meaningless. We should have rooted for them to win. Go Ravens? :tt: I guess REAL people like you do that.

ZoneBlitzer
09-19-2011, 02:09 AM
I know I will get flamed for this and ripped up and down but I'm saying it anyway.

A lot of you are going on about how the Steelers are "back to form" and that last week was just a "off day".

I'm here to say that there was nothing impressive at all out there today. The Seahawks are BAD, really bad. They have little in the way of offense and even less in the way of defense.

Mendy and Redman broke some runs today but they got stuffed quite a bit too. Mendy was dancing around in the backfield a lot, looking for a hole that wasn't provided by the O line. The Steelers were inside the 10 twice and came away with 3 points. They continue to struggle near the goal line and have no answers for it.

Ben got beat up again today. I didn't watch last week's game but from what I have heard, Ben was destroyed handily by the Ravens. He goes from one of the best defenses in the league to one of the worst and continues to get pounded. Your $100 million QB should not be taking that abuse. He is one blindside sack away from another concussion or major injury that could end his season or career.

Sure, the D got a shutout but it is Seattle that we are talking about! It is extremely difficult to shut out any NFL teams but it is far from being really impressive. I mean, we're talking about Tavaris Jackson and Golden Tate here! I'll give them props but it was nothing earth shattering.

Receivers looked good today in spite of Ben throwing numerous high balls their way. Wallace's impressive finger tip catch and Ward's tip toe catch were especially impressive. Sanders also had a good game again and Brown was visible.

The whole point is that Seattle is NOT Baltimore. Baltimore is a contender and Seattle is not. If Flacco could carve up the secondary like that, how are they going to stop Brady when he comes to town? He may well set the single game passing record against us! They will also have to face Shaub and a new Matt Hasselbeck, not to mention the Titans' front 7 which will likely be in Ben's grill all day.

The Steelers have MAJOR issues right now and it doesn't look good. Maybe they will find ways to fix them but then again, maybe not. They will have serious problems against contender teams if they can't find ways to correct their shortcomings. The "explosive offense" that was supposed to take pressure off an aging D is not looking very good right now. The O line was a concern all through the off season and it is rearing it's ugly head already just two games in.

Wow. I couldn't agree any more. Very well said. If the Steelers offense doesn't pick up the pace, it's going to be a tough year and an early out in the playoffs. The offense needs to be explosive and they need to be able to finish drives and put up major points. 24 points against Seattle is pedestrian.

Steelersfan87
09-19-2011, 04:11 AM
When are the Steelers ever "in form" in week 2? They always take time throughout the season to get the kinks out of their gameplan and progress. Steelers fans are such god damn whiners, I swear to god.

pancake
09-19-2011, 05:40 AM
:applaudit: well said, mr trout.

i think some people are hoping for, or waiting for a single win that will erase the horrible pain and humiliation they feel from losing last week to the ravens.

but theres not a single game that can do that, and mike tomlin acknowledged as much in his post game presser.

ultimately we're fans of a team where the superbowl is the standard. we could go undefeated for the rest of the regular season and it wouldnt mean jack squat towards erasing the week one loss, if we didnt win it all.

I think you hit the nail on the head. :thumbsup:

I also love seeing ratbirds lose. We are not as bad as we showed week 1

pete74
09-19-2011, 06:43 AM
When are the Steelers ever "in form" in week 2? They always take time throughout the season to get the kinks out of their gameplan and progress. Steelers fans are such god damn whiners, I swear to god.

Go check out any nfl team forum and you will notice the same thing. All people are saying is don't get overly excited about this win. Once we start beating teams in our division we can start looking towards the future.

Rick5895
09-19-2011, 07:45 AM
I don't think the Steelers are "back to form" just yet, but they played pretty well and got back to winning. We should beat the Manningless Colts and back to back wins against any team will give you confidence. As far as saying that there was nothing impressive, there was, it's just not deemed impressive because it's against the Seahawks. Anytime you shut out an NFL team that's impressive, Lynch is a good RB and he had no success today, and the offense played pretty well. 22/30, 298 yards, a touchdown and no picks, that's pretty good passing. Mendenhall and Redman played well. Overall, I'm still worried about our O line a lot, Foster had a great block and it seemed like they are getting better run blocking, but the pass blocking is still horrible. The only reason we weren't getting hurried and sacked more is because Seattle isn't that good, if that was the Jets or Ravens Ben would have been running a lot more. It's possible that the line will improve the more they play, and Gilbert played well, the more he plays he might turn into a solid point on the line like Pouncey is now. Another thing I'm still worried about is the lack of pass rush. Polamalu looks to have his timing back, Gay played pretty well and Taylor has been playing well so far, if we can get some pass rush from our heavily payed outside backers that are known for getting pass rush, then we will play much better against passing teams. It still didn't seem like the team was playing with any passion/intesnsity, even the announcers mentioned that. I know it's hard to get pumped up for the Seahawks, but this team has to get back to playing "pumped up" football where everyone is flying around cracking heads and making plays. All that said, I'm pretty happy about today's game. We missed a few opportunities but overall we handled the game the way we should and made progress.

You are right the Steelers aren't back to form, but it's week two, so as others point out, I would rather be playing the best football going into the playoffs. They shut out a team they should beat. So thats a good start. I do disagree with you on a couple of points, our run blocing was not good, if it was we would have had 14 points instead of 3 on two goal to go possessions inside the 5. I thought our pass protection was better, but you say if we played the Ravens or Jets Ben would be running a lot more, perhaps he would have, but, we played the Seahawks today and not the Jets or Ravens. IMO by the time we play Ratbirds again our OL will be better.
Our non existant pass rush from the backers in the 1st half was due largely infact to them being in coverage. I think the defensive game plan was focused on keeping Jackson in the pocket . which was done. When pressure was needed in the second half the result was 5 sacks.

As with you I am happy we had a shutout, because this is the NFL and that is hard to do, and I am happy we shut down the run. Overall a good effort that hopefully starts a long winning streak.

:tt04:

Steelerfreak58
09-19-2011, 10:58 AM
It was a win over a crappy team but it was a win none the less. The first and one step closer to the playoffs and that is all that matters.

grward
09-19-2011, 11:42 AM
Seattle may not be the greatest team but they are a PROFESSIONAL team. Give the Steelers credit for doing what they were supposed to do ... walk away with a W. That is the bottom line here. We've lost many games over the years to these bottom tier teams, but not yesterday. Yesterday they did what the should have ... WON the game. If you are going to berate them for winning then maybe you should strap on your helmet and pads and go show them how its done.

gloydfan
09-19-2011, 12:14 PM
24 - 0 W sounds good to me. Sure beats losing... as long as they make the playoffs anything can happen. Doesn't matter as much how you start, but how you finish.

Atlanta Dan
09-19-2011, 12:49 PM
when you say "our" and "us" in this context, are you referring to the players or the fans (or do you consider them one in the same)?.

When the Steelers win "we" win and when the Steelers lose "they" lose:chuckle:

TRH
09-19-2011, 02:26 PM
in a general sense, you are right.

My first and only real thought after the game was that while we beat Seattle soundly, it certainly didn't prove anything to me. Seattle is so awful they are likely one of the worst 2 or 3 in the league. Its surprising to me to see so much excitement around these parts after this "win".
Don't get me wrong, i'm glad we won the game, but i have a hunch the next time we play a contender, its not going to go like this did. If it would, i'd be pleasantly surprised, but i doubt it.
We need to be beating Patriot teams, Raven teams, Saints teams, etc. Not much here to be excited about at this point. And the Colts looked like anything but "elite" this week w/out Manning. I'm not sure how impressive a win there would be right now either.

Fire Arians
09-19-2011, 02:48 PM
in a general sense, you are right.

My first and only real thought after the game was that while we beat Seattle soundly, it certainly didn't prove anything to me. Seattle is so awful they are likely one of the worst 2 or 3 in the league. Its surprising to me to see so much excitement around these parts after this "win".
Don't get me wrong, i'm glad we won the game, but i have a hunch the next time we play a contender, its not going to go like this did. If it would, i'd be pleasantly surprised, but i doubt it.
We need to be beating Patriot teams, Raven teams, Saints teams, etc. Not much here to be excited about at this point. And the Colts looked like anything but "elite" this week w/out Manning. I'm not sure how impressive a win there would be right now either.

i agree with you to some extent, but to be a playoff team, you also have to win the easy games. i'll take this win. we will get a better guage of where we stand after playing the texans, but for now, the team needs to focus on indy

WickedSteel
09-19-2011, 05:51 PM
I hope, and I think he will, that Tomlin continues to remind the players that this win doesn't mean squat in the scheme of things. He was right to talk about the "stench" of the Ravens game lingering for a long time.

They opened the season against a bitter rival with MAJOR division implications and they stink it up BAD. The division always comes down to the wire and they coughed one up right off the bat.

The explosive offense wasn't there. The vicious defense wasn't there. The only thing that was there was the special teams, aka Antonio Brown.

Ben will get destroyed out there against great defensive teams if things don't get shored up soon. The secondary will continue to get lit up against good passing teams because the pass rushers can't get any pressure anymore.

What I am trying to say is that until the Steelers beat a quality opponent (Texans, Patriots, Ravens), they have nothing to be happy or excited about. Sure they can build confidence on these bottom feeders but you don't play bottom feeders come playoff time.

This was supposed to be an explosive offense this season with burners like Wallace, Brown, and Sanders carving up secondaries and Mendenhall and Redman pounding it down teams' throats week in and week out. Instead, as I expected, the O line can't keep defenders off Ben long enough to let those guys get open and they are even having a hard time opening holes for the run game. Ben is getting pounded time and time again and nearly had his season and possibly career ended yesterday.

To top it off, the veteran D that was number 2 in the league last year, looked tired and uninterested against Baltimore. The secondary remains the problem that it has been for years now and in a league that loves to pass, that spells trouble. It used to be that the Steeler pass rushers were constantly in the face of the opposing QB, forcing him to rush passes and getting sacks on him. This took a lot of pressure off of the secondary and masked their ineptitude. Now teams have invested heavily in their offensive lines and the pass rushers have a hard time getting to the QB. He is able to sit in the pocket and pick apart guys like McFadden and Gay and the like.

IMO, the two most important areas to focus on in today's NFL is the O line and the secondary. The Steelers have refused to address these areas in recent years. They have a $100 million QB and they continue to let him take a beating behind a suspect O line. They can't utilize their weapons because Ben doesn't have the time to find them.

On the flip side, they have a very pedestrian secondary that gets exposed more and more every year and they refuse to address that as well. I'm sorry but this so called "all world" linebacker corps is not getting the job done. They are getting old and are becoming less and less effective at pressure. It is time to invest in a more balanced D instead of only worrying about stuffing the run with the front 7. It is a pass happy league now and secondary is key.

Until they defeat a quality opponent and look good doing it, I'm not going to feel too confident about their chances at number 7. Sure, I'm hoping that it all comes together just as much as the next guy but it isn't looking great so far.

Sixburgher
09-19-2011, 06:01 PM
That settles it, then. Time to forfeit the rest of the season and for me to find a high ledge to jump off.

WickedSteel
09-19-2011, 06:12 PM
Keep laughing. I'm getting tired of all the homers accusing others that have genuine concerns of getting ready to end it all because of a loss.

ANYTHING can happen and I hope that they end up 15-1 with another SB ring but as of now, they have issues, that is what I am saying.

Kudos on the win but they still need to realize that it means nothing in the scheme of things. They have many things to work on and a win against the worst team in football shouldn't be putting smiles on anyone's face.

steelerjim58
09-19-2011, 06:48 PM
That settles it, then. Time to forfeit the rest of the season and for me to find a high ledge to jump off.

Look, I am as big a Steelers fan as you will find. I believe that they will make the playoffs, but as the team is made up now it would take a miracle for them to beat the patriots. The only thing that might slow down the patriots offense is terrible weather. Our offense hasnt shown that they can put up 30 plus points regularly and I believe that is what it takes to be a great team in todays NFL.

Sixburgher
09-19-2011, 06:52 PM
Look, I am as big a Steelers fan as you will find. I believe that they will make the playoffs, but as the team is made up now it would take a miracle for them to beat the patriots. The only thing that might slow down the patriots offense is terrible weather. Our offense hasnt shown that they can put up 30 plus points regularly and I believe that is what it takes to be a great team in todays NFL.

This post pretty much underscores my earlier comments about the Patriots being so deeply embedded in the psyche of so many Steelers fans that it's just about reached the point of being pathetic. There are 31 other teams in the league besides the Patriots. Bottom line is they haven't won a postseason game in four years and a Super Bowl in seven. I'm tired of hearing about the damn Patriots.

davidtrout
09-19-2011, 06:56 PM
Keep laughing. I'm getting tired of all the homers accusing others that have genuine concerns of getting ready to end it all because of a loss.

ANYTHING can happen and I hope that they end up 15-1 with another SB ring but as of now, they have issues, that is what I am saying.

Kudos on the win but they still need to realize that it means nothing in the scheme of things. They have many things to work on and a win against the worst team in football shouldn't be putting smiles on anyone's face.

I don't think anyone is laughing. Well, maybe some are, but that's fine. What I'm wondering is; what makes you think you're the only one who's noticed this? That makes two long rants in this thread directed at the very people who agree with you, to an extent. Just because we're not all overreacting and throwing in the towel doesn't mean we aren't just as concerned.

Again, I ask, what do you want? What do you want us to do about it? What do you want the Steelers to do about it? Just because you fell for the preseason hype of some "highpowered" offense, which turned out to be nothing more than talk, and others didn't is no reason to jump up and down screaming.

The team we have is the team we have. I think they can win a lot of games and we'll see what happens in January, but I don't think anything is going to come easy. It never does.

You don't like the OL? Welcome aboard, this train is packed. You want them to invest a lot of money and picks on DBs? I don't agree with that simply because of the rule changes that are making DBs irrelevant. But even if you're right, they can't do anything about it now. Relax, enjoy the season, we're all on the same side here. Mostly.

Geesh!

tony hipchest
09-19-2011, 07:06 PM
They opened the season against a bitter rival with MAJOR division implications and they stink it up BAD. The division always comes down to the wire and they coughed one up right off the bat.


What I am trying to say is that until the Steelers beat a quality opponent (Texans, Patriots, Ravens), they have nothing to be happy or excited about. Sure they can build confidence on these bottom feeders but you don't play bottom feeders come playoff time.

.

you dont think they already know this? its week 2 man. lighten up.

btaylor179
09-19-2011, 07:13 PM
i agree we didn't really look that good against the seahawks.....we shoulda beat them by 42.....its early but im kinda scared

tony hipchest
09-19-2011, 07:17 PM
i agree we didn't really look that good against the seahawks.....we shoulda beat them by 42.....its early but im kinda scared

people are just gonna have to come to grips with the fact that we are just not as good as the detroit lions.

never will be, so might as well quit fussing about it, and move on.

:coffee:

steelerjim58
09-19-2011, 07:21 PM
This post pretty much underscores my earlier comments about the Patriots being so deeply embedded in the psyche of so many Steelers fans that it's just about reached the point of being pathetic. There are 31 other teams in the league besides the Patriots. Bottom line is they haven't won a postseason game in four years and a Super Bowl in seven. I'm tired of hearing about the damn Patriots.


It is called being a realist. If you think anything other than injuries, weather or a freakish game like against the Jets in the playoffs will stop this patriots offense, you just are not paying attention.

WickedSteel
09-19-2011, 08:07 PM
What I can't really understand is why the Steelers can't adapt to what the NFL has become.

Teams like the Pats, Saints, Packers and Colts are running these spread offenses with quick screens and slants to the receivers and let them do the rest. The Steelers have the speed and talent on the field to do this yet Arians still calls plays that have Ben sitting in the pocket for 4-5 seconds just waiting to be decked. Sure, Brady, Rodgers, Manning and Brees have good offensive lines but they are not as good as they seem. What sets those teams apart is their game plan. They are set on the QB getting rid of the ball quickly which keeps the pressure off of him. I thought that Ben and Arians were working on him getting rid of the ball more quickly this year? These fly routes that Wallace runs are great IF Ben has time to sit in the pocket and wait for him to get free. Sadly, that isn't the case. Perhaps it is time to adapt and start finding these guys on crossing routes and allow them to get some YAC.

Look, there are a lot of things that frustrate me about this team and I am sure I am not the only one.

The refusal to fix the O line.

The refusal to fix the secondary.

Arians' play calling at times.

Mendy's ballet in the backfield.

Ben floating too many passes.

The pass rusher's inability to, well, get a pass rush.

Sure, other teams have strengths and weaknesses but usually their strengths outweigh their weaknesses.

The Pats' D isn't the greatest but their great O line and high powered offense more than make up for it.

The Colts have been much the same way for years, basically out shooting their opponents.

The Packers' run D isn't the greatest but their explosive offense makes up for that in a big way.

The Saints have little in the way of a run game but their spread offense where Brees distributes the ball all around makes up for it.

On the flip side, some teams have shutdown defenses that help them overcome their weak offenses.

The Bears, Ravens, and Jets come to mind.

The Steelers used to be in that category but in recent years, the D has been quite porous at times while the offense continues to struggle.

The Steelers don't need to be GREAT in either area, just good in both. If they could reach a good balance in which the offense takes some pressure off the D and the D is able to make stops and give the offense a chance, they would surely be a contender.

As of now, I predict these teams in the AFC playoffs:

AFC East champion Patriots

AFC North champion Ravens

AFC West champion Chargers

AFC South champion Texans

Wildcard teams Steelers and Jets (possibly Raiders)

Out of all those teams, I see the Steelers struggling against ALL of them if things don't improve. A Pats match up speaks for itself. The Ravens D is better right now and they have a better O line. The Chargers offense could cause serious problems for the Steeler D. The Texans offense is the same way, full of weapons. The Jets D is better than the Steelers and would be in Bens' face all day. The Raiders are the true wildcard. You never know what Raiders team will show up but they have the talent and the toughness to beat the Steelers too.

Now before some of you blow your stacks and claim that I have already signed the Steelers off this year, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that the Steelers have shown little in the first two games that show me that they are ready to defend their AFC champions title. Other teams continue to add pieces and improve year after year, while the Steelers keep plodding along with the status quo. I realize that status quo has brought them 2 more SB rings in the past 6 years and one more trip but they are running out of time with their aging team. It's time to start fixing these holes and building the next dynasty. Thanks for the great memories guys but it is time to move on.

Steelersfan87
09-19-2011, 08:17 PM
You are such a god damn overreactive, overexaggerating whiner. Did you just start watching football? Do you think anybody cares whether or not an athletic sports team that you have nothing to do with has shown you enough? Just be quiet and watch the games.

Sixburgher
09-19-2011, 08:42 PM
It is called being a realist. If you think anything other than injuries, weather or a freakish game like against the Jets in the playoffs will stop this patriots offense, you just are not paying attention.

They've lost 3 straight postseason games. They haven't won a title in seven years. That's reality. Stop swallowing the ESPN hype.

Atlanta Dan
09-19-2011, 08:44 PM
They've lost 3 straight postseason games. They haven't won a title in seven years. That's reality. Stop swallowing the ESPN hype.

So they are clearly due to win?:noidea:

davidtrout
09-19-2011, 08:47 PM
You are such a god damn overreactive, overexaggerating whiner. Did you just start watching football? Do you think anybody cares whether or not an athletic sports team that you have nothing to do with has shown you enough? Just be quiet and watch the games.

Well put. :thumbsup:

Sixburgher
09-19-2011, 08:47 PM
So they are clearly due to win?:noidea:

Giving up 400+ yards to the likes of Chad Henne? Have my doubts.

Atlanta Dan
09-19-2011, 08:54 PM
Giving up 400+ yards to the likes of Chad Henne? Have my doubts.

You and I agree:drink:

Pats have the Steelers number - unfortunately for New England you play more than one team in the playoffs

Pats since 2004 in playoffs

2005 - Denver road loss
2006 - Cough up 21-3 lead to Indy
2007 - 19-0 (not)
2009 - smacked around at home by Ravens
2010 - home loss to Jets

That's a lot of "freakish" games

Sixburgher
09-19-2011, 08:58 PM
You and I agree:drink:

Pats have the Steelers number - unfortunately for New England you play more than one team in the playoffs

Pats since 2004 in playoffs

2005 - Denver road loss
2006 - Cough up 21-3 lead to Indy
2007 - 19-0 (not)
2009 - smacked around at home by Ravens
2010 - home loss to Jets

That's a lot of "freakish" games

:drink:

Agreed. And it also seems to me that until very recently, the Roethlisberger-led Steelers had the Flacco-led Ravens number as well. Things can change. Those results you posted also illustrate why they play the games.

WickedSteel
09-19-2011, 09:11 PM
Sure, call me a whiner but nothing that I have stated isn't true is it? Didn't think so.

I have watched every Steeler game for the past 15 years. I have seen the best of the best and the worst of the worst. The trend that I have seen recently is the bad O line and the bad secondary and that spells trouble in today's NFL, that is a FACT.

I thought that maybe the first game was just a bad showing and that they would recover and get back on track. Sure they beat the Seahawks but it was anything but dominating.

Again, we will see when they play the Texans and Pats and Ravens again if they have what it takes.

ricardisimo
09-20-2011, 12:46 AM
Why is everyone taking as a given that the Texans are for realsies? Because they beat Indy and Miami? So far as I can tell, we only have three "real" games on our schedule: Baltimore twice and the Cheats. I'd like to win at least one of those and go 14-2. :applaudit: :tt03:

MACH1
09-20-2011, 12:50 AM
Why is everyone taking as a given that the Texans are for realsies? Because they beat Indy and Miami? So far as I can tell, we only have three "real" games on our schedule: Baltimore twice and the Cheats. I'd like to win at least one of those and go 14-2. :applaudit: :tt03:

They could same the same. Who have the Steelers beat?

The lowly suckhawks.

:noidea:

Fire Arians
09-20-2011, 12:52 AM
spending your 1st round draft choice on a center last year and a 2nd round draft pick this year isn't investing in the OL?

spending picks 3 & 4 are not investing in the secondary? re-signing troy polamalu and ike taylor to new contracts isn't investing in the secondary?

FO has addressed the issue the best they could imo.

Fire Arians
09-20-2011, 12:56 AM
Why is everyone taking as a given that the Texans are for realsies? Because they beat Indy and Miami? So far as I can tell, we only have three "real" games on our schedule: Baltimore twice and the Cheats. I'd like to win at least one of those and go 14-2. :applaudit: :tt03:

their offense is potent and they had some offseason upgrades on their D. wouldn't surprise me if they were one of the top afc teams. starting 2-0 is better than what we can say

tony hipchest
09-20-2011, 01:04 AM
Sure, call me a whiner but nothing that I have stated isn't true is it? Didn't think so.

I have watched every Steeler game for the past 15 years. I have seen the best of the best and the worst of the worst. The trend that I have seen recently is the bad O line and the bad secondary and that spells trouble in today's NFL, that is a FACT.

I thought that maybe the first game was just a bad showing and that they would recover and get back on track. Sure they beat the Seahawks but it was anything but dominating.

Again, we will see when they play the Texans and Pats and Ravens again if they have what it takes.so like youve watched every game since their appearance in sb XXX? you mean youve watched them make it to the AFCC game once every 2 years and play in 4 sb's?

did you watch every game of the lions 0-16 season during that time? how bout the 1-15 colts, panthers, dolphins, or patriots (in '92) during that same period? im not really sure you know about the worst of the worst.

perhaps if you watched every steelers game between the lean years of 1980-1994 you wouldnt have such a spoiled sense of entitlement.

here is a FACT for you- no secondary with a healthy troy polamalu in the lineup is a bad secondary. not to mention ike taylor.

'nuff said.

Steelersfan87
09-20-2011, 01:25 AM
Sure, call me a whiner but nothing that I have stated isn't true is it? Didn't think so.

Actually you've said multiple things are are far from objectively "true", and, oddly, merely answering your own rhetorical question doesn't make it so. Just because an idea is repeated numerous times doesn't mean that that idea eventually becomes true.

steelerjim58
09-20-2011, 01:31 AM
So a simple question for all you experts. How many of you would honestly bet that the Steelers hold the patriots to less than 30 pts. when they play?

MACH1
09-20-2011, 01:42 AM
so like youve watched every game since their appearance in sb XXX? you mean youve watched them make it to the AFCC game once every 2 years and play in 4 sb's?

did you watch every game of the lions 0-16 season during that time? how bout the 1-15 colts, panthers, dolphins, or patriots (in '92) during that same period? im not really sure you know about the worst of the worst.

perhaps if you watched every steelers game between the lean years of 1980-1994 you wouldnt have such a spoiled sense of entitlement.

here is a FACT for you- no secondary with a healthy troy polamalu in the lineup is a bad secondary. not to mention ike taylor.

'nuff said.

I have those years mentally blocked. :chuckle:

tony hipchest
09-20-2011, 01:50 AM
lost in all the "the seahawks arent worthy enough opponents for week 2 to count as a legitimate win" nonsense is the fact that just 4 meaningful games ago, they were knocking the defending SB champions out of the playoffs.

the saints got seahawked just like the ravens seahawked us. thats why you dont take any opponent lightly and think your mouth or reputation can get you through a game. sometimes they bring that little extra something to pull out a win.

good thing the titans seahawked the ravens right back.

tony hipchest
09-20-2011, 01:53 AM
I have those years mentally blocked. :chuckle:

lol you mean you dont wanna remember malone, bradshaws shredded arm, passing on marino in the draft only to get beat by him in a champ game the following year, and brister?

hater.

Rick5895
09-20-2011, 06:17 AM
So a simple question for all you experts. How many of you would honestly bet that the Steelers hold the patriots to less than 30 pts. when they play?

As I am no expert I will take a stab at your question anyway. I don't expect the Steelers to hold the Cheatriots under 30. They are a team (when Brady plays) that simply has our number. Most NFL teams have that one team they struggle with and for us it the Pats.

My biggest concerns with our squad this season were OL and secondary. I think, though, that the OL will improve and actually become solid by seasons end. What concerns me about the secondary or should I say overall pass coverage is our inability to cover TE's. The patriots have very good , athletic , fast TE's, and the damage done to us by the Ratbirds in the passing game was primarily done by the TE's. That falls more on the LB's and safeties than the corners.

All that being said, our schedule matches up well for us, and I see us being no worse than 12 - 4. (LOsses vs NE, at HOU and maybe one other in there.)

TRH
09-20-2011, 08:06 AM
What I can't really understand is why the Steelers can't adapt to what the NFL has become.

Teams like the Pats, Saints, Packers and Colts are running these spread offenses with quick screens and slants to the receivers and let them do the rest. The Steelers have the speed and talent on the field to do this yet Arians still calls plays that have Ben sitting in the pocket for 4-5 seconds just waiting to be decked. Sure, Brady, Rodgers, Manning and Brees have good offensive lines but they are not as good as they seem. What sets those teams apart is their game plan. They are set on the QB getting rid of the ball quickly which keeps the pressure off of him. I thought that Ben and Arians were working on him getting rid of the ball more quickly this year? These fly routes that Wallace runs are great IF Ben has time to sit in the pocket and wait for him to get free. Sadly, that isn't the case. Perhaps it is time to adapt and start finding these guys on crossing routes and allow them to get some YAC.

Look, there are a lot of things that frustrate me about this team and I am sure I am not the only one.

The refusal to fix the O line.

The refusal to fix the secondary.

Arians' play calling at times.

Mendy's ballet in the backfield.

Ben floating too many passes.

The pass rusher's inability to, well, get a pass rush.

Sure, other teams have strengths and weaknesses but usually their strengths outweigh their weaknesses.

The Pats' D isn't the greatest but their great O line and high powered offense more than make up for it.

The Colts have been much the same way for years, basically out shooting their opponents.

The Packers' run D isn't the greatest but their explosive offense makes up for that in a big way.

The Saints have little in the way of a run game but their spread offense where Brees distributes the ball all around makes up for it.

On the flip side, some teams have shutdown defenses that help them overcome their weak offenses.

The Bears, Ravens, and Jets come to mind.

The Steelers used to be in that category but in recent years, the D has been quite porous at times while the offense continues to struggle.

The Steelers don't need to be GREAT in either area, just good in both. If they could reach a good balance in which the offense takes some pressure off the D and the D is able to make stops and give the offense a chance, they would surely be a contender.

As of now, I predict these teams in the AFC playoffs:

AFC East champion Patriots

AFC North champion Ravens

AFC West champion Chargers

AFC South champion Texans

Wildcard teams Steelers and Jets (possibly Raiders)

Out of all those teams, I see the Steelers struggling against ALL of them if things don't improve. A Pats match up speaks for itself. The Ravens D is better right now and they have a better O line. The Chargers offense could cause serious problems for the Steeler D. The Texans offense is the same way, full of weapons. The Jets D is better than the Steelers and would be in Bens' face all day. The Raiders are the true wildcard. You never know what Raiders team will show up but they have the talent and the toughness to beat the Steelers too.

Now before some of you blow your stacks and claim that I have already signed the Steelers off this year, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that the Steelers have shown little in the first two games that show me that they are ready to defend their AFC champions title. Other teams continue to add pieces and improve year after year, while the Steelers keep plodding along with the status quo. I realize that status quo has brought them 2 more SB rings in the past 6 years and one more trip but they are running out of time with their aging team. It's time to start fixing these holes and building the next dynasty. Thanks for the great memories guys but it is time to move on.


Ben has 4 or 5 seconds in the pocket?? When? What are you watching? He's LUCKY if he gets ONE second.

Atlanta Dan
09-20-2011, 08:53 AM
their offense is potent and they had some offseason upgrades on their D. wouldn't surprise me if they were one of the top afc teams. starting 2-0 is better than what we can say

Texans should win their division - whether they are anything more than the best team in a bad division will start to be answered after they play at New Orleans and against the Steelers at home the next 2 weeks

Steelers will be getting points in Houston

steelerjim58
09-20-2011, 05:55 PM
As I am no expert I will take a stab at your question anyway. I don't expect the Steelers to hold the Cheatriots under 30. They are a team (when Brady plays) that simply has our number. Most NFL teams have that one team they struggle with and for us it the Pats.

My biggest concerns with our squad this season were OL and secondary. I think, though, that the OL will improve and actually become solid by seasons end. What concerns me about the secondary or should I say overall pass coverage is our inability to cover TE's. The patriots have very good , athletic , fast TE's, and the damage done to us by the Ratbirds in the passing game was primarily done by the TE's. That falls more on the LB's and safeties than the corners.

All that being said, our schedule matches up well for us, and I see us being no worse than 12 - 4. (LOsses vs NE, at HOU and maybe one other in there.)

That question was meant for the individuals who seem to think my opinions were based on what I have heard on ESPN. When all I am trying to say is that the way the league is set up right now, you have to be able to put up points if you are going to win it all. The days of being able to win with a great defense are gone. There is no way the 2000 Ravens even make the playoffs today. They went ,what was it 6-7 games without a offensive td.

MACH1
09-20-2011, 06:17 PM
lol you mean you dont wanna remember malone, bradshaws shredded arm, passing on marino in the draft only to get beat by him in a champ game the following year, and brister?

hater.

Ohhhh......The memories. :chuckle:

Fire Arians
09-20-2011, 06:51 PM
man i liked bubby brister. brister to lipps was money :P

harrison'samonster
09-20-2011, 07:31 PM
24-0 is pretty impressive for an NFL game.

I agree that there are some things this team needs to get better at. The O-line needs to come together, but they have a long season to do that.

Also, I think Rick5895 hit it right on about covering the TE's being trouble for our linebackers. Rice hurt us too with his receptions. I think somebody else mentioned that our lack of pass-rush early on against the Seahawks had to do with our linebackers covering against the pass. And it seemed to work.

This win was a big step in the right direction.

WickedSteel
09-20-2011, 08:57 PM
Teams like the Pats, Saints and Packers beat the Steelers by spreading them out. They love to go 5 wide and spread everything out and take guys out of pass rushing situations. Casey, Diesel and Smith are not great pass rushers, they are great run stoppers. When teams spread the Steeler D out, it takes their strength, their linebackers, out of pass rushing situations. Then the other team loves to dink and dunk it up the field with slants and screens to RBs and TEs and eat up clock en route to scoring. The Steeler D is simply not equipped to handle those situations very well.

Go back and look over the years at how many times the Steelers have sacked Brady, Manning and Brees. They can't seem to get pressure on these types of QBs and if you don't rattle them they will pick you apart.

We will see the true test in the Texans game. We will see if Ike can cover A. Johnson one and one and if anyone can cover Daniels.

The D shouldn't be this big of an issue but the ineptness of the offense right now makes it really important.

For the record, I fully expect the Pats to hang at LEAST 35 on the Steelers when they play with 41 not being out of the question. Brady should have at least 3 TDs and 350+ yards against this D and his jersey will probably be clean as a whistle.

tony hipchest
09-20-2011, 09:34 PM
For the record, I fully expect the Pats to hang at LEAST 35 on the Steelers when they play with 41 not being out of the question. Brady should have at least 3 TDs and 350+ yards against this D and his jersey will probably be clean as a whistle.

:cookie:

well good for brady. He is football God. that will push him 1 step closer to breaking marinos passing record and record tying 4th sb win. :applaudit:

in the meantime he could break his leg, so for the time being, i will just worry about the colts.

you feel free to keep getting yourself all worked up about it if it makes you feel better, though.

that probably makes you the "bigger" fan. :drink:

Atlanta Dan
09-20-2011, 09:41 PM
Go back and look over the years at how many times the Steelers have sacked Brady, Manning and Brees. They can't seem to get pressure on these types of QBs and if you don't rattle them they will pick you apart.

Steelers 21- Colts 18 - January 15. 2006

First downs 21 15
Rush-yards-TDs 42-112-1 14-58-1
Comp-Att-Yd-TD-INT 14-24-197-2-1 22-38-290-1-0
Sacked-yards 2-14 5-43
Net pass yards 183 247
Total yards 295 305
Fumbles-lost 1-1 1-0
Turnovers 2 0
Penalties-yards 2-8 9-67

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200601150clt.htm

WickedSteel
09-20-2011, 09:48 PM
Ah yes, the infamous playoff game where Peyton "had some issues with protection".

Whoopee, one example of a freak game.

Atlanta Dan
09-20-2011, 09:59 PM
Ah yes, the infamous playoff game where Peyton "had some issues with protection".

Whoopee, one example of a freak game.

You use "freak" quite a bit

So how many "freakish" events have conspired for the Steelers to have won 2 Super Bowls since Tom Terrific last won one, for the sainted Peyton Manning to have played in and won less Super Bowls than Roethlisberger, and for the great Drew Brees to have played in one Super Bowl in his career - just wondering:noidea:

Steelers must be doing something right

If you enjoy looking around corners for something bad to happen you must be a joy to watch the game with

Ed.B. of the P-G sums up the downside of your approach to the season

Ed: Don't Wish the Season Away

There's an email below that I would say is typical of many fans and those in the media who want to determine whether the Steelers truly are capable of getting to the playoffs and another Super Bowl or not. I will quote, "Let's see how the squad looks in 6-8 weeks.''

It reminds me of something my mother always said to me when I would complain on a school week Tuesday that I wish it were Friday already. "Don't wish your life away,'' she would respond.

Let's not wait two more months to determine whether this team is a championship contender. They play the games now, they charge admission, they put them all on television, we talk and write about them for six days before they play another. I can't wait 6-8 weeks, and don't want to....

Look forward to this Sunday, and 6-8 weeks from now, you can enjoy those games as well.

http://plus.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/pro-sports/steelers

Keep on flaming:drink:

tony hipchest
09-20-2011, 10:06 PM
Ah yes, the infamous playoff game where Peyton "had some issues with protection".

Whoopee, one example of a freak game.i guess its just a freak accident that the steelers have gone to 3 superbowls since dick lebeau devised that gameplan (in his 2nd year back as steelers DC).

if the saints and patriots and colts, are so great of constantly whipping the ass of the best defensive coordinator in the game, they should have no problem beating all the other scrubs and winning the superbowl every year. :noidea:

DanRooney
09-20-2011, 10:19 PM
Going to 3 SBs on the past 6 years is the answer for everything

WickedSteel
09-20-2011, 10:44 PM
Hey, the Bills went to 4 SBs in a row.........:noidea:

Atlanta Dan
09-20-2011, 10:50 PM
Hey, the Bills went to 4 SBs in a row.........:noidea:

Of course they always lost

Not so with this group of Steelers:chuckle:

tony hipchest
09-20-2011, 10:54 PM
Going to 3 SBs on the past 6 years is the answer for everythingno. according to some, being captain obvious and rehashing 3 year old talking points, or being completely wrong about everything, is the answer to everything.

:laughing:

you guys act like you had a ****ing epiphany. LOL

go back into the corner and suck your thumbs because we have the patriots on the schedule this year.

some people's NFL penis envy is SO embarrassing. :headshake:

WickedSteel
09-20-2011, 11:00 PM
no. according to some, being captain obvious and rehashing 3 year old talking points, or being completely wrong about everything, is the answer to everything.

:laughing:

you guys act like you had a ****ing epiphany. LOL

go back into the corner and suck your thumbs because we have the patriots on the schedule this year.

some people's NFL penis envy is SO embarrassing. :headshake:

Wellllllll, Brady IS the biggest **ck in the league.:chuckle:

tony hipchest
09-20-2011, 11:08 PM
Wellllllll, Brady IS the biggest **ck in the league.:chuckle:yep.

and he also has 900+ yards in his 1st 2 games and is well on way to shatter dan marino's passing record (just like he did marino's/mannings td record).

if the past is any indication, there isnt much ANY team can do to stop it.

doesnt mean we have to harp on it every day and constantly try to pound the obvious into fellow steelerfans heads.

the game is yet to be played. i will wait and see how it unfolds when we get there.

IN THE MEANTIME... i will enjoy watching MY TEAM win games and improve.

:drink:

lasvegasguy
09-20-2011, 11:24 PM
that's a good thing because that'd be 2 automatic losses for us

difference between the pats-steelers and steelers-ravens matchups is the ravens win some of them, and when they lose usually play well enough to keep it close. we usually are on the wrong side of an ass raping with a baseball bat wrapped with barbed wire when facing the patriots

Too funny but yet so true. I am hoping at some point we man up and play this team but I am probably only dreaming. The Pats will beat us by at least 30 this year I am sure.

tony hipchest
09-20-2011, 11:31 PM
Too funny but yet so true. I am hoping at some point we man up and play this team but I am probably only dreaming. The Pats will beat us by at least 30 this year I am sure.

"sometimes you gotta walk into a fight with your fists up and your chin out.

if you enter the ring like a pu$$y, you're sure to get knocked the **** out."



-someone who didnt act like a pu$$y and get knocked the **** out.

a9z8F4fgj6Q

i really wish you guys would quit snivling like a bunch a little scared sissies. its unbecoming of our proud franchise. :helmet:

:tt02: man up!

DanRooney
09-20-2011, 11:39 PM
no. according to some, being captain obvious and rehashing 3 year old talking points, or being completely wrong about everything, is the answer to everything.

:laughing:

you guys act like you had a ****ing epiphany. LOL

go back into the corner and suck your thumbs because we have the patriots on the schedule this year.

some people's NFL penis envy is SO embarrassing. :headshake:

Being obvious is stating that we'be been to 3 SBs in the past 6 years to everything that's wrong with this team.

Captain obvious? So Ward being slow and should not be in every down is obvious or wrong? It can't be obvious because you argue with everything I say with no substance. I honestly think you are a 16 year old with the way you freak out like a little bitch lol

tony hipchest
09-20-2011, 11:47 PM
Being obvious is stating that we'be been to 3 SBs in the past 6 years to everything that's wrong with this team.

Captain obvious? So Ward being slow and should not be in every down is obvious or wrong? It can't be obvious because you argue with everything I say with no substance. I honestly think you are a 16 year old with the way you freak out like a little bitch loldo you ever stop crying like a little pu$$y and whining about the steelers like a little bitch?

or am i just being too captain obvious? lol

"ward being slow...." :toofunny: of course that is obvious. he's been saying it himself for years. its like a 10 year old running joke (as he has compiled and beaten just about EVERY steeler wr record)

only idiots think he needs to be benched.

welcome to the program, newb. :tt03:

WickedSteel
09-21-2011, 12:01 AM
Whatever. I will look forward to watching every game this season and for seasons to come (except maybe the Pats ones).

I am just stating my opinion that AS OF NOW the Steelers do not look like a contender. I have seen the lowlights from last week's game and it was UGLY. Ben was getting crushed time and again, plays were getting blown up in the backfield, guys were having the ball taken away from them before they even had it, Troy couldn't even cover a TE. Once Ben had been creamed enough times, he started getting nervous and throwing up horrible INTs that would make O'Donnell proud.

The Steelers had it handed to them in week 1 by a contender, a world class defense and an improving offense. The Seahawks don't deserve to sniff the jocks of the Ravens so beating them is meaningless at this point.

Many a talented college QB has been ruined by throwing them behind a swiss cheese O line in the NFL and getting them destroyed week in and week out. When Ben came into the league the Steeler O line was one of the best in the league. He was able to grow and mature into an NFL caliber QB with little pressure in his face on a weekly basis. He got himself a $100 million contract and now the FO is allowing him to become a tackling dummy each and every game? It doesn't make sense to me. YES Ben holds on to the ball too long SOMETIMES, but most of the time he barely has enough time to look up from receiving the snap before someone is in his grill.

THAT is the real kicker right there. I know that the Rooneys have traditionally built through the draft and are not ones to spend big money of FAs but maybe that line of thinking needs to stop. Holes need fixed and finishing near the top every season doesn't insure high quality draft picks. The goal of the organization isn't to simply finish NEAR the top, it is to finish ON TOP. They have a solid team but some key areas need addressed before number 7 is in the case. There were several quality DBs that were free agents this year. PASS. Ike is OK but McFadden is like Mr. Glass out there every year and at times can't cover his shadow. Gay is, well, Gay.

I know that the Rooneys don't spend tons of money loading up teams for an all or nothing run like the Jets and Eagles but a few minor acquisitions here and there will go a long way in building a championship team. As I have stated before, IMO the two most key areas of any football team (in today's league) are the O line and the secondary and that just happens to be where the Steelers are the weakest.

finesward
09-21-2011, 12:07 AM
Exactly Wicked ! I'm glad we got the win, a win is good anyway you get it, but I'd like to see a good performance and some good rhythm. I just don't feel comfortable with this team yet. They were lucky on interceptions, which Ben would have had 2 if not for the dropping by Seattle, they couldn't score from the 1yrd line on 1st down....which I'm almost positive that Ben could have punched it in on 2 or 3 tries. But instead we come away with NO points. Wallace was the only player that looked 'pumped' out there. There just doesn't seem like there is any determination, emotion, rhythm or whatever out there on the field. Just going thru the motions...so to speak. There should have been at least another 14+ points scored. Hopefully they find their mojo within the next few weeks, because I could see a team with a mediocre defense putting it to them like the ratbirds did. GO STEELER's.

When have you ever really felt comfortable with this team? It's not a steelers game unless there is some uncertainty. We are not the pats. We are not methodical on offense and make enough plays on defense to win. We are just the opposite. Usually the defense keeps it within reach and tries to give Ben a chance to win the game. It's turnovers penalties and sacks that almost always makes steeler games so close.

Sixburgher
09-21-2011, 12:07 AM
The Steelers had it handed to them in week 1 by a contender, a world class defense and an improving offense.

Who promptly turned around, got punched in the mouth and had their lunch money taken by the Titans. Whatever indeed.

finesward
09-21-2011, 12:14 AM
Whatever. I will look forward to watching every game this season and for seasons to come (except maybe the Pats ones).

I am just stating my opinion that AS OF NOW the Steelers do not look like a contender. I have seen the lowlights from last week's game and it was UGLY. Ben was getting crushed time and again, plays were getting blown up in the backfield, guys were having the ball taken away from them before they even had it, Troy couldn't even cover a TE. Once Ben had been creamed enough times, he started getting nervous and throwing up horrible INTs that would make O'Donnell proud.

The Steelers had it handed to them in week 1 by a contender, a world class defense and an improving offense. The Seahawks don't deserve to sniff the jocks of the Ravens so beating them is meaningless at this point.

Many a talented college QB has been ruined by throwing them behind a swiss cheese O line in the NFL and getting them destroyed week in and week out. When Ben came into the league the Steeler O line was one of the best in the league. He was able to grow and mature into an NFL caliber QB with little pressure in his face on a weekly basis. He got himself a $100 million contract and now the FO is allowing him to become a tackling dummy each and every game? It doesn't make sense to me. YES Ben holds on to the ball too long SOMETIMES, but most of the time he barely has enough time to look up from receiving the snap before someone is in his grill.

THAT is the real kicker right there. I know that the Rooneys have traditionally built through the draft and are not ones to spend big money of FAs but maybe that line of thinking needs to stop. Holes need fixed and finishing near the top every season doesn't insure high quality draft picks. The goal of the organization isn't to simply finish NEAR the top, it is to finish ON TOP. They have a solid team but some key areas need addressed before number 7 is in the case. There were several quality DBs that were free agents this year. PASS. Ike is OK but McFadden is like Mr. Glass out there every year and at times can't cover his shadow. Gay is, well, Gay.

I know that the Rooneys don't spend tons of money loading up teams for an all or nothing run like the Jets and Eagles but a few minor acquisitions here and there will go a long way in building a championship team. As I have stated before, IMO the two most key areas of any football team (in today's league) are the O line and the secondary and that just happens to be where the Steelers are the weakest.

And yet here we are one year removed from the sb with 2 rings in the past 6 years with the same weakness. Explain how that is possible in todays league. I mean it is the two key areas. We should be near the top of the draftboard according to you. I'll tell ya how. Franchise qb and a top 5 defense. Oldie but goodies. Even in todays pass happy league.

MACH1
09-21-2011, 12:15 AM
Whatever. I will look forward to watching every game this season and for seasons to come (except maybe the Pats ones).



Why not? You'd have the best of both worlds. Watching the Steelers while slobbering on toms* nut sack.

tony hipchest
09-21-2011, 12:15 AM
I know that the Rooneys don't spend tons of money loading up teams for an all or nothing run like the Jets and Eagles but a few minor acquisitions here and there will go a long way in building a championship team. As I have stated before, IMO the two most key areas of any football team (in today's league) are the O line and the secondary and that just happens to be where the Steelers are the weakest.

you mean like ryan clark and flozell adams?

nobody cares what your opinion is of the most key areas of any football team are. who the **** are you???? :blah:

the most key areas of any football team are the qb's and edge pass rushers.

just shut up and be glad the steelers are no longer trying to win SB's with tommy maddox or mike tonczac (because thats what type of QB you get when you pay OL top dollar).

you act like you have a revolutionary formula for #WINNING but the steelers have been there, done that.

i simply aint buying into the "wisdom" you and danclooney are trying to shed.

Why not? You'd have the best of both worlds. Watching the Steelers while slobbering on toms* nut sack.
:chuckle: :thumbsup:

WickedSteel
09-21-2011, 12:19 AM
Really? They lost by 13 points and turned the ball over only 3 times. The Steelers turned the ball over 7 times and lost by 4 TDs!!! The Ravens loss hardly equates to them being punched in the mouth. More like someone tied their shoe laces together for a quick laugh.

The Steelers went toe to toe for the heavy weight championship against the Ravens and got knocked the fugh out in the first round. Then they got a consolation fight against an 80 year old, washed up former contender in the Seahawks.

No my friend, a Steeler win against a bottom feeder and a Raven loss to a mediocre team does not mean everything is right in the world again.

tony hipchest
09-21-2011, 12:21 AM
No my friend, a Steeler win against a bottom feeder and a Raven loss to a mediocre team does not mean everything is right in the world again.

:shout: - PANIC!!!

Sixburgher
09-21-2011, 12:26 AM
Really? They lost by 13 points and turned the ball over only 3 times. The Steelers turned the ball over 7 times and lost by 4 TDs!!! The Ravens loss hardly equates to them being punched in the mouth. More like someone tied their shoe laces together for a quick laugh.

The Steelers went toe to toe for the heavy weight championship against the Ravens and got knocked the fugh out in the first round. Then they got a consolation fight against an 80 year old, washed up former contender in the Seahawks.

No my friend, a Steeler win against a bottom feeder and a Raven loss to a mediocre team does not mean everything is right in the world again.

Uh, the "bottom feeder" the Steelers beat had a better record last year than the "mediocre" team the mighty contending Ravens just lost to, and whose "world class defense" got torched by an over the hill Hasselbeck.

Do everyone a favor and come in off the ledge already, friend.

finesward
09-21-2011, 12:32 AM
Really? They lost by 13 points and turned the ball over only 3 times. The Steelers turned the ball over 7 times and lost by 4 TDs!!! The Ravens loss hardly equates to them being punched in the mouth. More like someone tied their shoe laces together for a quick laugh.i

The Steelers went toe to toe for the heavy weight championship against the Ravens and got knocked the fugh out in the first round. Then they got a consolation fight against an 80 year old, washed up former contender in the Seahawks.

No my friend, a Steeler win against a bottom feeder and a Raven loss to a mediocre team does not mean everything is right in the world again.

We went toe to toe with gb while the rats were fuming about losing another huge game to us. Playing balt in balt week1 was A setup for a let down. A real contender with a world class defense and improving offense wouldn't fall flat against an equally pathetic tenn team. Tenn had more to play for just as balt had last week against us.

And your math doesn't do you any favors 3 turnovers loss by nearly 2 tds is pretty close to more than 6 turnovers loss by 4 tds. They gave up similar points per turnover as we did. So why are they a contender and we arent? A loss is a loss is a loss in this league

WickedSteel
09-21-2011, 12:33 AM
Scuse me but when they won the first SB Faneca was still there and the O line was in top form. Most of the defense was 6 years younger too there hotshot.

You say that a great QB is one of the most important things in the game today? How the **ck do you expect ANY QB to be successful if he is being gang tackled on every damn snap??? Edge pass rushers? Don't think so..

Out of the recent SB champions, only the Steelers and the Giants had good defenses with good pass rushers.

Pats? Nope. Unstoppable offense won them theirs.

Saints? Nope. See above.

Colts? Nope. See above.

Packers? Little better but not great.

You see a pattern here? All these teams have explosive, spread offenses with great O lines and great QBs. They could give a **it less about spending a bunch on great defensive players because they don't need them. They will light your a** up and still beat you if you hang 30 on them.

I hate it as much as the next guy but this is the NFL now. Goodell got what he wanted and now we have games every week with 500 yards trough the air and scoring galore. That doesn't bode well for an aging defense and an inept offense. For God's sake look at the Bills! Even they have the offense clicking. Freaking Cam Newton is throwing for 400 yards every week! Chad freaking Henne hung over 400 on the Pats! Matt Hasselbeck torched the Ravens for over 350 last week!

All of that and Ben couldn't top 300 against the Seahawks with ONE TD and Mendy barely got over 60 yards with ONE TD? The offense goes in spurts and sputters and it is partly the O line and partly Arians. The era of **** it back and let it fly is upon us and the Steelers are still lost in the 70s.

finesward
09-21-2011, 12:34 AM
Uh, the "bottom feeder" the Steelers beat had a better record last year than the "mediocre" team the mighty contending Ravens just lost to, and whose "world class defense" got torched by an over the hill Hasselbeck.

Do everyone a favor and come in off the ledge already, friend.

Hold it down six. I'm going to bed.

Sixburgher
09-21-2011, 12:40 AM
And your math doesn't do you any favors 3 turnovers loss by nearly 2 tds is pretty close to more than 6 turnovers loss by 4 tds. They gave up similar points per turnover as we did. So why are they a contender and we arent?

Hey, when Warren Sapp says it's over, it's over. :sofunny:

Riddle_Of_Steel
09-21-2011, 12:41 AM
I don't know, but I'm sure a lot more recently than the last time we even won a less meaningful game against the pats. When was the last time we beat a brady-led team?

Ask and you shall receive.....we beat them 34-21 during the 2004 regular season, ending their 21-game winning streak since winning the SB the year before. We won by abandoning the "drop back and cover" defense and just rushing Brady like he is any other QB, and when you rush Brady and put even a little bit of pressure on him-- he IS just like any other QB.

It was how the Giants beat them in the SB in 2007 as well. If there is any game where Lebeau should not abandon the pass rush in favor of dropping everybody back, it is against the Pats.

Most of us fans have known for a while the way to beat Brady is to play press coverage and rush the sh1t out of him. When he starts getting hit-- his game goes from best to worst. He is not Big Ben, he is just lucky he has a top-rated Oline that can give him years back there to think about where he is gonna throw. Unfortunately though, whenver we play them, we always revert to a Nickel package and expect Woodley and Harrison to cover tight ends and the speedy Danny Woodhead, instead of just rushing them and punching Brady in the mouth. But then again, I am no coach, and Dick lebeau's undewear probably knows more about football than I do.

finesward
09-21-2011, 12:48 AM
Scuse me but when they won the first SB Faneca was still there and the O line was in top form. Most of the defense was 6 years younger too there hotshot.

You say that a great QB is one of the most important things in the game today? How the **ck do you expect ANY QB to be successful if he is being gang tackled on every damn snap??? Edge pass rushers? Don't think so..

Out of the recent SB champions, only the Steelers and the Giants had good defenses with good pass rushers.

Pats? Nope. Unstoppable offense won them theirs.

Saints? Nope. See above.

Colts? Nope. See above.

Packers? Little better but not great.
I
You see a pattern here? All these teams have explosive, spread offenses with great O lines and great QBs. They could give a **it less about spending a bunch on great defensive players because they don't need them. They will light your a** up and still beat you if you hang 30 on them.

I hate it as much as the next guy but this is the NFL now. Goodell got what he wanted and now we have games every week with 500 yards trough the air and scoring galore. That doesn't bode well for an aging defense and an inept offense. For God's sake look at the Bills! Even they have the offense clicking. Freaking Cam Newton is throwing for 400 yards every week! Chad freaking Henne hung over 400 on the Pats! Matt Hasselbeck torched the Ravens for over 350 last week!

All of that and Ben couldn't top 300 against the Seahawks with ONE TD and Mendy barely got over 60 yards with ONE TD? The offense goes in spurts and sputters and it is partly the O line and partly Arians. The era of **** it back and let it fly is upon us and the Steelers are still lost in the 70s.
As long as the 21st century version of the 70s steelers team makes it to the sb and comes within the final drive of winning I'm cool with that. Win some lose some. You want. Great offense u r going to sacrifice having a great defense

To counter poor pass pro u typically run the ball well which our line has shown they can do in spurts. This is a new line give it some time. I thought they did pretty well last year. Considering all the injuries it could be much much worse than it is.

Last time pats won any impt game they had one of the best defenses in the nfl. I'm not sold on air Brady till they win a game that matters

Manning had a freak of a edge rusher who gave him all those short fields to work with during his sb year. Saints weren't exactly slouched on defense either.

tony hipchest
09-21-2011, 12:51 AM
Out of the recent SB champions, only the Steelers and the Giants had good defenses with good pass rushers.

Pats? Nope. Unstoppable offense won them theirs.

Saints? Nope. See above.

Colts? Nope. See above.

Packers? Little better but not great.

.so what youre saying is that 3 of the last 6 (50%) of superbowl champions had dominant edge pass rushers?

i rest my case.

as for the rest, you are absolutely clueless.

the patriots won their 1st sb with an unknown 2nd year qb and rb a. smith. it was their opponent who was the unstoppable "greatest show on turf". as for their other 2 wins, the panthers and eagles stood in there toe to toe. it was the pats defense and special teams that made the difference.

saints won with a team that lead the league in defensive td's scored and takeaways. their special teams secured an onside kick.

colts beat the bears with a dominant running game and late interception.

green bay won with a clay mathews turnover and 2 intercedptions, which isnt suprising being that one of the leagues greatest defensive minds is their DC.

as for the rest, you can argue with me, but you cant argue with the NFL. qb's get paid more than left tackles (franchise tag values being the standard) and until wacky al davis artificially inflated the price of asomugha, DE's get paid more than CB's.

safeties have one of the lowest tag values, so what the hell does that say about your absurd secondary theory? :tap:

MACH1
09-21-2011, 01:02 AM
the patriots won their 1st sb with an unknown 2nd year qb and rb a. smith. it was their opponent who was the unstoppable "greatest show on turf". as for their other 2 wins, the panthers and eagles stood in there toe to toe. it was the pats defense and special teams that made the difference.

You forgot the most important part.

http://rlv.zcache.com/the_patriots_gameplan_cheat_hat-p148385887994704336tdto_152.jpg

DanRooney
09-21-2011, 01:35 AM
The offense is pretty shaky to way the least, but most of it is due to our terrible play at RG and LT.

solardave
09-21-2011, 04:28 AM
Maybe we should wait until they play the games in January before we call the Patriots "great"?

Walk me through what the Patriots have accomplished since beating San Diego in the AFC championship game in January 2008

As Ed. B,. of the P-G wrote today, nobody wins the Super Bowl in September

http://plus.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/pro-sports/steelers

And by saying we should note how the Pats play against "other great teams" are you calling the Chargers a great team?:toofunny:


We might as well call the chargers a great team. They get picked to go to the SB every year and fall flat on their face. I think yesterday (while we didn't play a great game as a team) some of the individual efforts were great.% sacks,under 200 total yards, time of possession dominance. Wallace played pretty good and Hines while not blocking was making toe tap catches. Heath had some pretty good blocks and Gilbert held his own most of the game. I think we should keep Foster in for one more week in place of Kemo. My knock on Kemo is his temper which he can't control resulting in Stupid penalties.

Atlanta Dan
09-21-2011, 08:02 AM
Out of the recent SB champions, only the Steelers and the Giants had good defenses with good pass rushers.

Pats? Nope. Unstoppable offense won them theirs.

Packers? Little better but not great.

You see a pattern here? All these teams have explosive, spread offenses with great O lines and great QBs. They could give a **it less about spending a bunch on great defensive players because they don't need them. They will light your a** up and still beat you if you hang 30 on them.

Yep - the Pats and Packers won with offense but mediocre defense

2001 Patriots
Scored 371 points (23.2/g), 6th of 31 in the NFL.
Allowed 272 points (17.0/g), 6th
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/2001.htm

2003 Patriots
Scored 348 points (21.8/g), 12th of 32 in the NFL.
Allowed 238 points (14.9/g), 1st
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/2003.htm

2004 Patriots
Scored 437 points (27.3/g), 4th of 32 in the NFL.
Allowed 260 points (16.2/g), 2nd
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/2004.htm

2010 Packers
Scored 388 points (24.2/g), 10th of 32 in the NFL.
Allowed 240 points (15.0/g), 2nd.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/gnb/2010.htm

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but not to their own facts

Keep on flaming:drink:

effyou515
09-21-2011, 09:27 AM
We went toe to toe with gb while the rats were fuming about losing another huge game to us. Playing balt in balt week1 was A setup for a let down. A real contender with a world class defense and improving offense wouldn't fall flat against an equally pathetic tenn team. Tenn had more to play for just as balt had last week against us.

And your math doesn't do you any favors 3 turnovers loss by nearly 2 tds is pretty close to more than 6 turnovers loss by 4 tds. They gave up similar points per turnover as we did. So why are they a contender and we arent? A loss is a loss is a loss in this league

what i high lighted in bold letters is what i think of the Ravans / Steelers game. the only thing the Ravens coaching staff and veteran players thought this offseason was game planning and beating the Steelers in the first game.


well they got their pay back and fell flat on their face in the tennessee game.:sofunny:

cloppbeast
09-21-2011, 10:55 AM
Really? They lost by 13 points and turned the ball over only 3 times. The Steelers turned the ball over 7 times and lost by 4 TDs!!! The Ravens loss hardly equates to them being punched in the mouth. More like someone tied their shoe laces together for a quick laugh.

The Steelers went toe to toe for the heavy weight championship against the Ravens and got knocked the fugh out in the first round. Then they got a consolation fight against an 80 year old, washed up former contender in the Seahawks.

No my friend, a Steeler win against a bottom feeder and a Raven loss to a mediocre team does not mean everything is right in the world again.

A dose of common sense.

If the Steelers make the playoffs, it will be because of their schedule not because they actually deserve it. That's the way I see it now.

Of course, they could get better, but I highly doubt it for a mutlitude of reasons.

The o-line stinks.

Mendenhall ain't that good, and the Steelers won't put Redman in for whatever reason. They won't run the ball consistently against quality competition.

Ben is overrated, face it. He is to stupid or inaccurate to make quick throws which his o-line requires. Plus, the new enforcement of the 'within the grasp' rule will hurt him tremendously when he isn't playing the Seahawks. So, he won't be able to play guirilla football as much this season. Without having much of a brain, I don't see him having much success this year. It's time for the real Big Ben to stand up.

The lone bright spot for the offense is Mike Wallace. But he can't do it by himself. Hines sucks, face it. The Steelers need to put Sanders on the field; he's much better. Even if 88 gets playing time, though, 2 good WRs with a crappy QB, crappy o-line, and crappy running game doesn't make an explosive offense.

On defense, they'll stop the run, but that's about it. Ike Taylor can cover one WR pretty well, but most teams have more than one. Which means somebody will always be open.

The blue-print has been produced by Belichek, and it seems as though Harbaugh has found a copy as well. If won't be long before other coaches to figure it out, if they haven't already. Granted, some teams just don't have the personel to beat the Steelers even with the proper game-plan. The Steelers will beat the Seahawks, the Bengals, the Colts, the Browns, the Chiefs mostly because those teams suck. Pittsburgh should be glad they have a soft schedule this year, because they need it.

ricardisimo
09-21-2011, 11:04 AM
A dose of common sense.

If the Steelers make the playoffs, it will be because of their schedule not because they actually deserve it. That's the way I see it now.

Of course, they could get better, but I highly doubt it for a mutlitude of reasons.

The o-line stinks.

Mendenhall ain't that good, and the Steelers won't put Redman in for whatever reason. They won't run the ball consistently against quality competition.

Ben is overrated, face it. He is to stupid or inaccurate to make quick throws which his o-line requires. Plus, the new enforcement of the 'within the grasp' rule will hurt him tremendously when he isn't playing the Seahawks. So, he won't be able to play guirilla football as much this season. Without having much of a brain, I don't see him having much success this year. It's time for the real Big Ben to stand up.

The lone bright spot for the offense is Mike Wallace. But he can't do it by himself. Hines sucks, face it. The Steelers need to put Sanders on the field; he's much better. Even if 88 gets playing time, though, 2 good WRs with a crappy QB, crappy o-line, and crappy running game doesn't make an explosive offense.

On defense, they'll stop the run, but that's about it. Ike Taylor can cover one WR pretty well, but most teams have more than one. Which means somebody will always be open.

The blue-print has been produced by Belichek, and it seems as though Harbaugh has found a copy as well. If won't be long before other coaches to figure it out, if they haven't already. Granted, some teams just don't have the personel to beat the Steelers even with the proper game-plan. The Steelers will beat the Seahawks, the Bengals, the Colts, the Browns, the Chiefs mostly because those teams suck. Pittsburgh should be glad they have a soft schedule this year, because they need it.
So tell us what you really think. Don't hold back.

Belichick might want to revamp that blueprint, by the way. I'm sure you've seen posted here more than once his record since their last SB win, if not someone will be happy to oblige, I'm sure.

cloppbeast
09-21-2011, 11:18 AM
So tell us what you really think. Don't hold back.

I rarely hold back. It just so happens this time I have a pretty extreme view, with respect to most posters on this forum.

I just don't think we're any good this year, sadly enough.

Belichick might want to revamp that blueprint, by the way. I'm sure you've seen posted here more than once his record since their last SB win, if not someone will be happy to oblige, I'm sure.

The blue-print to beat the Steelers, of course. His record against other competition is kind of irrelevent with regard to what I said.

What is Belichick's record against the Steelers?

tanda10506
09-21-2011, 11:32 AM
A dose of common sense.

If the Steelers make the playoffs, it will be because of their schedule not because they actually deserve it. That's the way I see it now.

Of course, they could get better, but I highly doubt it for a mutlitude of reasons.

The o-line stinks.

Mendenhall ain't that good, and the Steelers won't put Redman in for whatever reason. They won't run the ball consistently against quality competition.

Ben is overrated, face it. He is to stupid or inaccurate to make quick throws which his o-line requires. Plus, the new enforcement of the 'within the grasp' rule will hurt him tremendously when he isn't playing the Seahawks. So, he won't be able to play guirilla football as much this season. Without having much of a brain, I don't see him having much success this year. It's time for the real Big Ben to stand up.

The lone bright spot for the offense is Mike Wallace. But he can't do it by himself. Hines sucks, face it. The Steelers need to put Sanders on the field; he's much better. Even if 88 gets playing time, though, 2 good WRs with a crappy QB, crappy o-line, and crappy running game doesn't make an explosive offense.

On defense, they'll stop the run, but that's about it. Ike Taylor can cover one WR pretty well, but most teams have more than one. Which means somebody will always be open.

The blue-print has been produced by Belichek, and it seems as though Harbaugh has found a copy as well. If won't be long before other coaches to figure it out, if they haven't already. Granted, some teams just don't have the personel to beat the Steelers even with the proper game-plan. The Steelers will beat the Seahawks, the Bengals, the Colts, the Browns, the Chiefs mostly because those teams suck. Pittsburgh should be glad they have a soft schedule this year, because they need it.

So Big Ben is crappy and stupid and Hines Ward sucks and Mendenhall is not very good? :rofl: Sure am glad your not in the FO.

Steel Peon
09-21-2011, 11:43 AM
I'll just quote myself from a different forum on how I feel about the Seasucks game:

So far it seems like the general consensus has the Steelers amongt the living, but not yet the strong. Shutting out any team is something to be happy about, if only the opponent looked like it wasn't playing grabass all day. The Seasucks have fallen a treacherous distance into the basement of ineptitude, that is, if they were even trying at all, which that feeble effort sure didn't look like. Hell, I thought that guy in charge of payroll forgot to direct deposit all of the Seahag's checks, so they all decided to strike. Even Pete Carroll looked like he couldn't give a **** less about getting anally raped after getting his balls ripped off.........they looked like Madden set on "pussdweeb easy." This was the team that beat the Saints in the playoffs?

I'm also completely on board with the "a win is a win" crowd, and for me it's much more of a relief than anything. It's like finding out that a lump on your balls is just an ingrown hair, and now you ain't gots to say farewell to one of your boys.......that was just an example, btw.......an impotent Steeler team doesn't stack up to losing a testicle........for me, at least.

Without driveling on to excess about the matter, I'll wrap my ramblings up by extending Ben major credit for getting railed hard enough to make every Steeler fan across America stop breathing for a split second, and then getting back at it so fast that hardly anyone can believe it.......helluva sequence of events there dude. Wallace did great, Hines made another Hall of Fame catch, Ike shut his side of the field down, and no one really sucked.......it was an ok day. This game signals the end of constipation, but I'll breath easier when I don't have to use so damn much toilet paper.

You'd think I'd feel a lot better, especially after having my Colon cleansed and all. Get it?.......my Colon got flushed.......you know.......nevermind. Anyone tired of me using my health problems for Steeler analogies yet?

MasterOfPuppets
09-21-2011, 11:49 AM
A dose of common sense.

If the Steelers make the playoffs, it will be because of their schedule not because they actually deserve it. That's the way I see it now.

Of course, they could get better, but I highly doubt it for a mutlitude of reasons.

The o-line stinks.

Mendenhall ain't that good, and the Steelers won't put Redman in for whatever reason. They won't run the ball consistently against quality competition.

Ben is overrated, face it. He is to stupid or inaccurate to make quick throws which his o-line requires. Plus, the new enforcement of the 'within the grasp' rule will hurt him tremendously when he isn't playing the Seahawks. So, he won't be able to play guirilla football as much this season. Without having much of a brain, I don't see him having much success this year. It's time for the real Big Ben to stand up.

The lone bright spot for the offense is Mike Wallace. But he can't do it by himself. Hines sucks, face it. The Steelers need to put Sanders on the field; he's much better. Even if 88 gets playing time, though, 2 good WRs with a crappy QB, crappy o-line, and crappy running game doesn't make an explosive offense.

On defense, they'll stop the run, but that's about it. Ike Taylor can cover one WR pretty well, but most teams have more than one. Which means somebody will always be open.

The blue-print has been produced by Belichek, and it seems as though Harbaugh has found a copy as well. If won't be long before other coaches to figure it out, if they haven't already. Granted, some teams just don't have the personel to beat the Steelers even with the proper game-plan. The Steelers will beat the Seahawks, the Bengals, the Colts, the Browns, the Chiefs mostly because those teams suck. Pittsburgh should be glad they have a soft schedule this year, because they need it.
may i ask what is the difference between now , and last years 12 - 4 team that made the superbowl ? :noidea:
was ben smarter and made quick throws ?
did the oline not stink ?
was mendenhall pretty good and shared time equally with redman ?
did they have a better cornerback to compliment ike ?
did belicheat release his blueprint just a few weeks ago ?

FanSince72
09-21-2011, 12:14 PM
I know I will get flamed for this and ripped up and down but I'm saying it anyway.

A lot of you are going on about how the Steelers are "back to form" and that last week was just a "off day".

I'm here to say that there was nothing impressive at all out there today. The Seahawks are BAD, really bad. They have little in the way of offense and even less in the way of defense.

Mendy and Redman broke some runs today but they got stuffed quite a bit too. Mendy was dancing around in the backfield a lot, looking for a hole that wasn't provided by the O line. The Steelers were inside the 10 twice and came away with 3 points. They continue to struggle near the goal line and have no answers for it.

Ben got beat up again today. I didn't watch last week's game but from what I have heard, Ben was destroyed handily by the Ravens. He goes from one of the best defenses in the league to one of the worst and continues to get pounded. Your $100 million QB should not be taking that abuse. He is one blindside sack away from another concussion or major injury that could end his season or career.

Sure, the D got a shutout but it is Seattle that we are talking about! It is extremely difficult to shut out any NFL teams but it is far from being really impressive. I mean, we're talking about Tavaris Jackson and Golden Tate here! I'll give them props but it was nothing earth shattering.

Receivers looked good today in spite of Ben throwing numerous high balls their way. Wallace's impressive finger tip catch and Ward's tip toe catch were especially impressive. Sanders also had a good game again and Brown was visible.

The whole point is that Seattle is NOT Baltimore. Baltimore is a contender and Seattle is not. If Flacco could carve up the secondary like that, how are they going to stop Brady when he comes to town? He may well set the single game passing record against us! They will also have to face Shaub and a new Matt Hasselbeck, not to mention the Titans' front 7 which will likely be in Ben's grill all day.

The Steelers have MAJOR issues right now and it doesn't look good. Maybe they will find ways to fix them but then again, maybe not. They will have serious problems against contender teams if they can't find ways to correct their shortcomings. The "explosive offense" that was supposed to take pressure off an aging D is not looking very good right now. The O line was a concern all through the off season and it is rearing it's ugly head already just two games in.

All I saw against Seattle was the "other" extreme.

Against Baltimore, we were extremely bad and against Seattle we were extremely good (or at least efficient).

Neither game is any true example of what we're about this year and until we can rack up some "W's" against solid opponents, we still won't know.

Next week is Indy without Manning. Granted it's in their house but come on, if we don't beat the crap out of them we'll know even less about this year's Steelers.

In all honesty, judging by our schedule, it won't be until late October/early November until we can get a true sense of where we're at and even then we might not really know for sure. This is one of those years where we may never really get a chance to truly gauge this team until playoff time.

And quite frankly, as long as there IS a "playoff time" I really don't care all that much about how we rank because at that point, we'd just have to be good enough to win 3 or 4 games in a row.

steeltheone
09-21-2011, 12:14 PM
The biggest problem is we rode the old guys to long...and they make to much money which hurts the cap for us to afford better OL...The fact we made the SuperBowl last year was great but if we had gone to New England we would never have went...Thanks Jets!

cloppbeast
09-21-2011, 12:15 PM
may i ask what is the difference between now , and last years 12 - 4 team that made the superbowl ?

Not much has changed with the Steelers, and that's the problem.They're essentially the same team a year older, with a worse offensive line, a rule change which will hurt their dumbass quarterback, and nobody really new to help their weaknesses from last year.

I didn't want to imply that they absolutely suck. They're a slightly above average team, in my opinion. But they aren't elite this season. Coming off a Super Bowl season with high expectations, Steelers fans will probably be dissappointed this season,

steelfury02
09-21-2011, 12:18 PM
Uh oh - are we going to have to start rallying around the "their too old" or "let's win one for Ward" theme?

Look - I think what is frustrating for a lot of people is that Green Bay was in some ways the NFC version of New England and we were 1 less turnover away from probably conquering that type of team. Despite our worst effort - we still only lost by 6.

My guess is we will at the least give New England a great game this time around. This group of guys knows how to handle a team that beat them bad the last time around - it is one thing you can't measure, that helps us in rematches...and that's heart.

I'm confident we will avenge our loss against Bmore and probably secure the division when all is said and done. We just have "that" team on the back of our minds all the time. We won't keep getting lucky and avoiding them in the playoffs. That combined with the SB that got away - we are all aching to make a final stand . . .(que Rocky music)

kirklandrules
09-21-2011, 12:40 PM
Wow, I'm just surprised this many negative people still exist. Thought they all bumped themselves off after week 1. Guess we'll have to wait for another loss or two just to shake off the tough ones that refuse to just let go and end it all. Afterall, 14-2 or 13-3 is just too big a burden to carry on.

Call me crazy, but I'm glad the Steelers are 1-1 and not 0-2. I'm encouraged they beat a bad Seahawks team 24-0 (taking care of business is taking care of business). Is there more tune up work to do? Yes. But this team has shown us they aren't so bad they are going to lose games they should win and that they have enough pride to move on from a bad game. Can't wait to see how they improve when they play the Colts.

cloppbeast
09-21-2011, 12:58 PM
Call me crazy, but I'm glad the Steelers are 1-1 and not 0-2. I'm encouraged they beat a bad Seahawks team 24-0 (taking care of business is taking care of business).

I'm also very happy they shut out an offense commanded by Tavaris Jackson. lol. However, taking care of business against Andrew Luck's future team doesn't get me all that excited.

kirklandrules
09-21-2011, 01:05 PM
However, taking care of business against Andrew Luck's future team doesn't get me all that excited.

Then don't watch the game. :noidea:

DanRooney
09-21-2011, 01:07 PM
Im pretty sure the Ravens game was our worst effort in recent memory.

cloppbeast
09-21-2011, 01:15 PM
Then don't watch the game. :noidea:

lol. great response.

I didn't know we were discussing whether or not I should watch the game. I thought we were discussing whether or not we should be excited about a win agaisnt the Seahawks.

I must have posted in the wrong thread.

Atlanta Dan
09-21-2011, 01:17 PM
A dose of common sense.

If the Steelers make the playoffs, it will be because of their schedule not because they actually deserve it. That's the way I see it now.

Of course, they could get better, but I highly doubt it for a mutlitude of reasons.

Thanks for sharing - now that I know how the season will turn out i can spend my Sundays through February doing something other than watching the games

:drink:

tanda10506
09-21-2011, 01:25 PM
Not much has changed with the Steelers, and that's the problem.They're essentially the same team a year older, with a worse offensive line, a rule change which will hurt their dumbass quarterback

Now Ben is a dumbass on top of being crappy? Have you watched the Steelers much the last 6 years?

cloppbeast
09-21-2011, 01:29 PM
Thanks for sharing - now that I know how the season will turn out i can spend my Sundays through February doing something other than watching the games

:drink:

lol. Sorry for sharing my opinion. I suppose I should just do what everybody else does and say the Steelers "came out flat" or some other stupid cliche that doesn't mean anything.

Of course, my opinion could be wrong, just as yours could be. That's why they play. We make prediction to see if they come true. Hopefully mine is wrong.

cloppbeast
09-21-2011, 01:38 PM
Now Ben is a dumbass on top of being crappy? Have you watched the Steelers much the last 6 years?

I don't think Ben sucks, although that's the word I used previously. I should change it.

I just don't think he's as good as everybody else thinks. He's probably a top-10 QB, maybe just outside.

And yes, he is a dumbass. Anybody who's potentially worth $100 million dollars and a) rides a crotch rocket without a helmet, b) not one year following one sexual assalt charge, fornicates with an underage college girl, who was 'DTF', in a bathroom with a guard watching the door or c) hasn't learned how to get rid of the ball before getting pounded by 300 lb linemen 50 times a year, as far as I'm concerned, such a person is a dumbass.

kirklandrules
09-21-2011, 01:59 PM
lol. great response.

I didn't know we were discussing whether or not I should watch the game. I thought we were discussing whether or not we should be excited about a win agaisnt the Seahawks.

I must have posted in the wrong thread.

My bad ... I'm posting between meetings and took your response to be about the upcoming game. I've heard some gabbing about the Colts stinking it up this year without Manning, then drafting Luck as Mannings future replacement.

I agree that basically winning against a bad Seahawks team doesn't produce a ton of excitement. But I'm still glad they handled their business and are 1-1. A few years ago, the Patriots blistered the Steelers early in the season, then the Steelers lost to the lowly Raiders (in a game they were projected to win easily). So, not repeating that scene and showing improvement sure is a plus.

tanda10506
09-21-2011, 02:05 PM
I don't think Ben sucks, although that's the word I used previously. I should change it.

I just don't think he's as good as everybody else thinks. He's probably a top-10 QB, maybe just outside.

And yes, he is a dumbass. Anybody who's potentially worth $100 million dollars and a) rides a crotch rocket without a helmet, b) not one year following one sexual assalt charge, fornicates with an underage college girl, who was 'DTF', in a bathroom with a guard watching the door or c) hasn't learned how to get rid of the ball before getting pounded by 300 lb linemen 50 times a year, as far as I'm concerned, such a person is a dumbass.

You didnt say he sucked, you said Ward sucked and Ben was "crappy". Ben is underrated by most non Steeler fans, and most NFL experts have him in the top 5 since he wins ALMOST all the important games and has no offensive line whatsoever. Point c that you made I don't think is his fault, usually he is lucky to get 2 seconds to throw and most of the passing plays that we run take longer then 2 seconds to develop. As far as points a and b, I didn't realise you were referring to off the field actions too, so in that case, I would agree with you, although I don't think he will have those problems in the future.

cloppbeast
09-21-2011, 02:09 PM
My bad ... I'm posting between meetings and took your response to be about the upcoming game. I've heard some gabbing about the Colts stinking it up this year without Manning, then drafting Luck as Mannings future replacement.

That would be a good idea for Indy in my opinion.

I agree that basically winning against a bad Seahawks team doesn't produce a ton of excitement. But I'm still glad they handled their business and are 1-1. A few years ago, the Patriots blistered the Steelers early in the season, then the Steelers lost to the lowly Raiders (in a game they were projected to win easily). So, not repeating that scene and showing improvement sure is a plus.

I'm glad they won, but I expected it. I hope they get something figured out soon. Offensively, they need to learn how to run the ball, first and foremost. They will need to face the fact Ben isn't the type of quarterback to take control of a game and win it. He needs a running game to be successful.

Steelersfan87
09-21-2011, 03:14 PM
lol. Sorry for sharing my opinion. I suppose I should just do what everybody else does and say the Steelers "came out flat" or some other stupid cliche that doesn't mean anything.

Of course, my opinion could be wrong, just as yours could be. That's why they play. We make prediction to see if they come true. Hopefully mine is wrong.

Most people use their eyes and their brains, not their asses, to formulate coherent observations.

cloppbeast
09-21-2011, 04:24 PM
Ben is underrated by most non Steeler fans, and most NFL experts have him in the top 5 since he wins ALMOST all the important games and has no offensive line whatsoever

No offensive line? I guess a little hyperbole never hurt anybody.

I am extremely reluctant to give him much credit for winning "most" of the important games he's been in during his carreer. If Alex Smith played alongside one of the lowest scoring defenses year in and year out, he would probably also win many of the important games he plays as well.

When a quarterback only needs to score between 10 and 20 points to win, I won't give him much credit for winning. Sorry.

Point c that you made I don't think is his fault, usually he is lucky to get 2 seconds to throw and most of the passing plays that we run take longer then 2 seconds to develop.

The facts disagree with you on this matter. I'll try to find them later this evening for you.

Simply put, he doesn't get sacked 50 times a season with less than 2 seconds to throw. Most of his sacks come after about 10 pump fakes and running around like a chicken with his head cut off refusing to throw the ball away.

As far as points a and b, I didn't realise you were referring to off the field actions too, so in that case, I would agree with you, although I don't think he will have those problems in the future.

Fair enough. Off the field issues still say something about his decision making ability in general. But, perhaps I'm just passing personal judgement. My bad.

ETL
09-21-2011, 06:43 PM
God, I didn't know that one person's neurotic babbling can last 14 pages....

To the pessamists (wicked, rooney, etc...) - statistically, in the end, there is a good chance that you will be proven right. Why? Because only 1 team will win the SB and that means that 31 out of 32 teams and their fans have some basis for griping. So gripe on, go kick your dog and tell us, "I told you so" and blah, blah, blah, ... (wow, what a miserable existence)

To the optimists - i'm with you and we are all stupid because there is a 96.8% chance that our beloved Steelers will either not make the playoffs or lose the last game. But we will eternally hope and cling on to that 3.2%. It is that 3.2% that makes me watch every sunday, that makes me celebrate wins over lousy opponents like the seahags - no matter what anyone else says and that makes me root for old fogies like Hines Ward and Aaron Smith. Sure, we're on the wrong end of the statistics but its a lot more fun being on this end than the other.

tanda10506
09-21-2011, 06:54 PM
They will need to face the fact Ben isn't the type of quarterback to take control of a game and win it. He needs a running game to be successful.

I am starting to wonder if you are serious. Ben has took control and won many games for us. We do need a better running game, but Ben has won us many games.

steelerjim58
09-21-2011, 07:14 PM
I am starting to wonder if you are serious. Ben has took control and won many games for us. We do need a better running game, but Ben has won us many games.

This individual either is not really a Steelers fan or just does not know football. In either case it just is not worth the energy to respond to him.

cloppbeast
09-22-2011, 09:02 AM
God, I didn't know that one person's neurotic babbling can last 14 pages....

To the pessamists (wicked, rooney, etc...) - statistically, in the end, there is a good chance that you will be proven right. Why? Because only 1 team will win the SB and that means that 31 out of 32 teams and their fans have some basis for griping. So gripe on, go kick your dog and tell us, "I told you so" and blah, blah, blah, ... (wow, what a miserable existence)

I'm not really griping. I don't derive my happiness from whether or not the Steelers win. It's a game.

I don't think they're going to win, so on a forum where we share our opinions, I share mine. This means I have a miserable existence? lol.

Perhaps we should change the name of this forum from Steelers Fever to the Steelers Conformity. The slogan could be: "Where all posters thinks the Steelers are going to win the Super Bowl every season because it makes us feel good!"

cloppbeast
09-22-2011, 09:06 AM
I am starting to wonder if you are serious. Ben has took control and won many games for us. We do need a better running game, but Ben has won us many games.

What game then? If it's supposedly "many", it shouldn't be hard to find just one.

What is the Steelers record when Ben throws more than 30 times?

22-24.

What is the Steelers record when Ben throws 30 times or less?

66-8.

Enough said. He's a glorified, lummix version, of Trent Dilfer.

cloppbeast
09-22-2011, 09:57 AM
This individual either is not really a Steelers fan or just does not know football. In either case it just is not worth the energy to respond to him.

:blah:

I don't have the same opinion as you, therefore I am either either not a "real" Steelers fan, or I don't know football.

I'm not following your reasoning. Do tell. Explain how it is not possible for a "real" Steeler's fan to come to a different conclusion than you about Ben; or why any person who knows anything about football would have to come to the same conclusion as you about Ben.

finesward
09-22-2011, 11:16 AM
What game then? If it's supposedly "many", it shouldn't be hard to find just one.

What is the Steelers record when Ben throws more than 30 times?

22-24.

What is the Steelers record when Ben throws 30 times or less?

66-8.

Enough said. He's a glorified, lummix version, of Trent Dilfer.

He has 17 fourth quarter comebacks and 21 game winning drives in 6 seasons including a super bowl come from behind victory. You must have a really bad memory.

Brett Cottrell
09-22-2011, 11:20 AM
oh well.

some people will never be happy.

on to the colts.

beating them will be insignificant as well. :rolleyes:

Come on, ol' Hoss, beating the Colts is never insignificant, because that which is fun is never insignificant!

steelerjim58
09-22-2011, 02:59 PM
He has 17 fourth quarter comebacks and 21 game winning drives in 6 seasons including a super bowl come from behind victory. You must have a really bad memory.

What so many do not seem to get, is that with no other changes other than who is the qb, if you were to put either brady or Manning in this offense, they would either be sacked 60 plus times or would see their completeion percentage drop considerably due to how many times they would have to throw the ball away.

cloppbeast
09-22-2011, 03:44 PM
What so many do not seem to get, is that with no other changes other than who is the qb, if you were to put either brady or Manning in this offense, they would either be sacked 60 plus times or would see their completeion percentage drop considerably due to how many times they would have to throw the ball away.

This ridiculous hypothetical never gets applied both ways. When you go on and on about Ben's two Super Bowls, you never mention he's had one of the most dominant defenses of all time. Yet of course, you'll use the situational excuses to downgrade those whom you want to downgrade. Selective logic at its best.

Clearly you didn't watch many of the Colts' games last year. They had an equally bad, if not worse, offensive line than Ben's. Which explains why they used their first 2 draft picks on offensive tackes.

Kerry Collins has already taken 5 sacks against teams not known for their front seven, putting him on pace for 40 on the season. Once the Colts start playing better defenses, the pace will surely increase, starting this week with the Steelers.

Manning, on the other hand, only took 16 sacks last year, despite having a lack-luster offensive line. He knows how to get rid of the damn ball!

In almost half as many seasons, Ben has already taken 50 more sacks than Manning. You think this is solely because he has a worse offensive line?

How about Tom Brady? During his record breaking season, he attempted 578 passes taking 21 sacks. The very next season, Matt Cassell, utilizing the same offensive line, took 47 sacks on 510 attempts. And Matt Cassell, by the way, is a half decent starting quarterback.

Instead of just arbitrarily and subjectively comparing situations to come to whatever conclusion you want, perhaps you should just look at the facts. Comparing how different quarterbacks handle the same situation, you should see the quarterback throwing the ball has a lot more to do with it than the offensive line protecting him.

Your arbitrary hypotheticals are ridiculous. If you really think Tom Brady wouldn't do better on the Steelers than Ben, then I'm glad you aren't running the Steelers.

effyou515
09-22-2011, 03:57 PM
i would be more worried about this Steelers team if they would of just beat the Seahawks instead of dominated the seahawks like they did.

effyou515
09-22-2011, 03:59 PM
i hope the Stealers didn't lose the ability win ugly this year like they did in games in the past.

steelerjim58
09-22-2011, 10:27 PM
This ridiculous hypothetical never gets applied both ways. When you go on and on about Ben's two Super Bowls, you never mention he's had one of the most dominant defenses of all time. Yet of course, you'll use the situational excuses to downgrade those whom you want to downgrade. Selective logic at its best.

Clearly you didn't watch many of the Colts' games last year. They had an equally bad, if not worse, offensive line than Ben's. Which explains why they used their first 2 draft picks on offensive tackes.

Kerry Collins has already taken 5 sacks against teams not known for their front seven, putting him on pace for 40 on the season. Once the Colts start playing better defenses, the pace will surely increase, starting this week with the Steelers.

Manning, on the other hand, only took 16 sacks last year, despite having a lack-luster offensive line. He knows how to get rid of the damn ball!



.

In almost half as many seasons, Ben has already taken 50 more sacks than Manning. You think this is solely because he has a worse offensive line?

How about Tom Brady? During his record breaking season, he attempted 578 passes taking 21 sacks. The very next season, Matt Cassell, utilizing the same offensive line, took 47 sacks on 510 attempts. And Matt Cassell, by the way, is a half decent starting quarterback.

Instead of just arbitrarily and subjectively comparing situations to come to whatever conclusion you want, perhaps you should just look at the facts. Comparing how different quarterbacks handle the same situation, you should see the quarterback throwing the ball has a lot more to do with it than the offensive line protecting him.

Your arbitrary hypotheticals are ridiculous. If you really think Tom Brady wouldn't do better on the Steelers than Ben, then I'm glad you aren't running the Steelers.

You are a long winded one arent you. And you certainly like to look up stats. Brady has had possibly the greatest protection ever given a qb. Add to that the fact that the patriots dink and dunk like no other team, of course his sack numbers would be low. As for Manning, he has had very good protection also. Granted he will throw the ball away in a heartbeat. And still, if you think with nothing else changing brady would put up any where near the numbers he is in new england if he were with the Steelers, you are an idiot.

And with that, allow me to take the low road here, F*** you.

tony hipchest
09-22-2011, 10:48 PM
And with that, allow me to take the low road here, F*** you.:laughing: allow me to take an even lower road here and laugh. :applaudit:

this constant patriot nut guzzling that has recently infected this board is quite sickenning. :puke:

all these raven and patriot frontrunners need to do the rest of us a big favor, hang up their fan card for the year, and call it a season.

WickedSteel
09-22-2011, 10:48 PM
You are a long winded one arent you. And you certainly like to look up stats. Brady has had possibly the greatest protection ever given a qb. Add to that the fact that the patriots dink and dunk like no other team, of course his sack numbers would be low. As for Manning, he has had very good protection also. Granted he will throw the ball away in a heartbeat. And still, if you think with nothing else changing brady would put up any where near the numbers he is in new england if he were with the Steelers, you are an idiot.

And with that, allow me to take the low road here, F*** you.

Lovely.

You bring up the point that some of us are trying to make. Brady, Manning and Brees have game plans in place that have them getting rid of the ball in a hurry to keep pressure off of them. They spread defenses out and force LBs to cover RBs and TEs as well as safeties covering WRs. They then proceed to dink and dunk and keep backing defenses up. The more a defense starts getting picked apart, the more they back off blitzing and pressuring and instead keep dropping into coverage. This then allows the offense to start catching them off guard with some runs here and there. They basically use the pass to set up the run which is opposite to what most teams do. Add to the fact that dropping into coverage constantly and chasing receivers all over the field, wears down defenses in a hurry.

We all know that the Steelers have a porous O line that is always in flux. What gets me is that the game plan never changes. They have speedy receivers that can run quick slants and screens and RBs that can catch passes out of the backfield yet they continue to have Ben drop back and wait, looking for those 60 yard bombs down the field. It just seems like thing could be done to counteract the poor O line play but nothing changes.

The NFL has changed whether we like it or not and to be competitive the Steelers need to adapt. That doesn't mean that they can't have an effective running game, it just means that scoring points is at a premium in the NFL now. The rules have been changed to encourage more passing and more scoring because Goodell thinks that is what fans want to see. THAT is why I have a hard time understanding why the Steelers keep avoiding addressing the O line and secondary issues. In fact, I say screw the secondary because the way the rules are, they aren't allowed to play football anyway. No, just load up on offense and outscore your opponent every week.

It's no coincidence that the Steelers won their two recent SBs by going with a more pass happy attack. That is why the Pats, Saints, Packers and Colts have all won recently too. Teams like the Ravens and Jets who are run first offenses haven't made it there have they? That is because you need to score points to win these games. You simply aren't going to be able to beat the Saints, Packers, Pats and Colts with a 10-3 or 13-10 score. They will score points on you and you need to score in order to win.

With the aging defense that the Steelers have, the offense needs to have long, successful drives to take the pressure off of them. It doesn't matter if you run the ball or dink and dunk pass it up the field, sustained drives to keep the defense fresh are important.

Look, we aren't saying that the Steelers suck and I will root for them till the day I die even through the inevitable 6-10 and 5-11 seasons to come. We are simply stating areas that the Steelers need to improve in or adapt in to keep their competitiveness in a changing game. Basically, if they don't have a good O line, find ways for Ben to get rid of the ball earlier and keep him from getting pounded. I was under the impression that Arians and Ben were working on this in training camp but have yet to see it in a game.

ricardisimo
09-22-2011, 11:58 PM
:laughing: allow me to take an even lower road here and laugh. :applaudit:

this constant patriot nut guzzling that has recently infected this board is quite sickenning. :puke:

all these raven and patriot frontrunners need to do the rest of us a big favor, hang up their fan card for the year, and call it a season.
Tom Brady is hawt and you know it. :love:
http://i55.tinypic.com/2dhgylk.jpg

tony hipchest
09-23-2011, 12:27 AM
Tom Brady is hawt and you know it. :love:
]

he will be much hawter at the end of the season with all of dan marino's records to go along with his 4 shiny superbowl rings. :rolleyes:

i can already see some of our membership turning up on other boards with cute screen names such as" WickedPatriot" and "BobKraft" :cheer:

WickedSteel
09-23-2011, 12:35 AM
What the hell are you talking about??? I think Tom Brady is a dick of the highest level. I despise him and Rivers more than any other QBs because of their sideline tirades and arrogant behavior.

I want the Steelers to succeed. I want Ben to have 3 rings just like Brady and shut up the haters. I want the Steelers to play their brand of defensive football and shut teams down.

I am simply laying out the blueprint for what makes teams like the Pats and Packers successful. No nut guzzling here, just pointing things out. THIS is the NFL today and to be successful, you need key areas addressed. As of now the Steelers have not addressed those areas.

We'll see how things go in Indy Sunday night and go from there. Honestly, if the Steelers can't rush for 120+ yards against them and if Ben gets dumped over and over by Freeny and Mathis, it will spell a long season for the Steelers. I also expect them to score at least 28 against Indy. Anything less will not look good against a very mediocre defense.

ricardisimo
09-23-2011, 12:39 AM
What the hell are you talking about??? I think Tom Brady is a dick of the highest level. I despise him and Rivers more than any other QBs because of their sideline tirades and arrogant behavior.

I want the Steelers to succeed. I want Ben to have 3 rings just like Brady and shut up the haters. I want the Steelers to play their brand of defensive football and shut teams down.

I am simply laying out the blueprint for what makes teams like the Pats and Packers successful. No nut guzzling here, just pointing things out. THIS is the NFL today and to be successful, you need key areas addressed. As of now the Steelers have not addressed those areas.

We'll see how things go in Indy Sunday night and go from there. Honestly, if the Steelers can't rush for 120+ yards against them and if Ben gets dumped over and over by Freeny and Mathis, it will spell a long season for the Steelers. I also expect them to score at least 28 against Indy. Anything less will not look good against a very mediocre defense.
But you're missing a very important and very basic point: the Steelers own the blueprint for success in the NFL over the past decade if not the past four decades. Not the Cheats. Not Indy. Not the Packers. The Steelers.

MACH1
09-23-2011, 01:05 AM
he will be much hawter at the end of the season with all of dan marino's records to go along with his 4 shiny superbowl rings. :rolleyes:

i can already see some of our membership turning up on other boards with cute screen names such as" WickedPatriot" and "BobKraft" :cheer:

TomsWadGobbler

Steelersfan87
09-23-2011, 01:06 AM
I'm pretty sure drafting a new starting center and tackle in the past two years qualifies as addressing the offensive line.

WickedSteel
09-23-2011, 01:15 AM
But you're missing a very important and very basic point: the Steelers own the blueprint for success in the NFL over the past decade if not the past four decades. Not the Cheats. Not Indy. Not the Packers. The Steelers.

Well the NFL has changed even since 08 when they won last. Golden boy QBs and the receivers they throw to can't be touched and defensive players are scared to even make a tackle now for fear of having to send a check to the NFL.

I just saw an article about how there has been more scoring in the first two game than ever before and that QBs have thrown for a record number of passing yard so far. THIS is want Goodell want whether we like it or not. Old school smash mouth football is a thing of the past. The NFL wants 51-45 scores and QBs throwing for 500 yards a game. Goodell has decided that intimidating defensive teams with bruising running games are boring and implemented rules to make them non competitive in today's game.

There are a myriad of issues right now and I for one would like the FO to change something if things don't improve in the next two games. I don't care if it means firing Arians or shaking things up a bit, if the current formula continues to struggle it's time to get back on track before the rest of the league leaves them in the dust.

tony hipchest
09-23-2011, 01:30 AM
I just saw an article about how there has been more scoring in the first two game than ever before and that QBs have thrown for a record number of passing yard so far. .that has very little to do with goodell or rule changes.

those in the know predicted this well before the season even began. the lack of offseason conditioning and ota's coupled with changeover in coaching staffs + inexperienced rookies would have experienced offenses going "no huddle" and leaving defenses gassed and confused.

so by reading that article you really didnt tap into a wealth of knowledge, you just allowed yourself to become further confused of what is really going on.

wait till december and watch how the tides turn.

Steeldude
09-23-2011, 01:31 AM
The NFL wants 51-45 scores and QBs throwing for 500 yards a game. Goodell has decided that intimidating defensive teams with bruising running games are boring and implemented rules to make them non competitive in today's game

which is why i only watch the steelers.

other games are so boring.

finesward
09-23-2011, 07:45 AM
This ridiculous hypothetical never gets applied both ways. When you go on and on about Ben's two Super Bowls, you never mention he's had one of the most dominant defenses of all time. Yet of course, you'll use the situational excuses to downgrade those whom you want to downgrade. Selective logic at its best.

Clearly you didn't watch many of the Colts' games last year. They had an equally bad, if not worse, offensive line than Ben's. Which explains why they used their first 2 draft picks on offensive tackes.

Kerry Collins has already taken 5 sacks against teams not known for their front seven, putting him on pace for 40 on the season. Once the Colts start playing better defenses, the pace will surely increase, starting this week with the Steelers.

Manning, on the other hand, only took 16 sacks last year, despite having a lack-luster offensive line. He knows how to get rid of the damn ball!

In almost half as many seasons, Ben has already taken 50 more sacks than Manning. You think this is solely because he has a worse offensive line?

How about Tom Brady? During his record breaking season, he attempted 578 passes taking 21 sacks. The very next season, Matt Cassell, utilizing the same offensive line, took 47 sacks on 510 attempts. And Matt Cassell, by the way, is a half decent starting quarterback.

Instead of just arbitrarily and subjectively comparing situations to come to whatever conclusion you want, perhaps you should just look at the facts. Comparing how different quarterbacks handle the same situation, you should see the quarterback throwing the ball has a lot more to do with it than the offensive line protecting him.

Your arbitrary hypotheticals are ridiculous. If you really think Tom Brady wouldn't do better on the Steelers than Ben, then I'm glad you aren't running the Steelers.

Care to reply to my post? You don't remember any of the fourth quarter comevacks and game winning drives Ben has under his belt? Since u like to look at facts check out hiscareer completion percentage avg yards per completion qb rating etc. He's right up there with some of the greats. They let him play his style of football. Sacks are a part of it.

cloppbeast
09-23-2011, 08:19 AM
Brady has had possibly the greatest protection ever given a qb.

Then why did Matt Cassell take 47 sacks with the same offensive line Brady consistently takes 20 with?

There, one sentence. Does that meet your attention span requirments?

cloppbeast
09-23-2011, 08:35 AM
:laughing: allow me to take an even lower road here and laugh. :applaudit:

He made a very witty insult, so I can understand why you would think it funny.

Telling somebody "**** You", how brilliant! I wish I would have thought of that one first. lol

cloppbeast
09-23-2011, 08:42 AM
Care to reply to my post? You don't remember any of the fourth quarter comevacks and game winning drives Ben has under his belt?

I did reply to your post. Weren't you the guy who said Manning or Brady would take 60 sacks if they played on the Steelers? I debunked that ridiculous assertion.

As far as Ben's comebacks, I give him credit. He's got ice in his vains, I give him that.

Since u like to look at facts check out hiscareer completion percentage avg yards per completion qb rating etc. He's right up there with some of the greats. They let him play his style of football. Sacks are a part of it.

Those stats overlook his biggest weakness, taking sacks. If sacks counted as attempts, or if sack yards lost came off of his average per completion, his stats wouldn't look nearly as good. Whoever invented those statistics did Ben a favor when they didn't account for sacks.

cloppbeast
09-23-2011, 08:52 AM
Lovely.

You bring up the point that some of us are trying to make. Brady, Manning and Brees have game plans in place that have them getting rid of the ball in a hurry to keep pressure off of them. They spread defenses out and force LBs to cover RBs and TEs as well as safeties covering WRs. They then proceed to dink and dunk and keep backing defenses up. The more a defense starts getting picked apart, the more they back off blitzing and pressuring and instead keep dropping into coverage. This then allows the offense to start catching them off guard with some runs here and there. They basically use the pass to set up the run which is opposite to what most teams do. Add to the fact that dropping into coverage constantly and chasing receivers all over the field, wears down defenses in a hurry.

We all know that the Steelers have a porous O line that is always in flux. What gets me is that the game plan never changes. They have speedy receivers that can run quick slants and screens and RBs that can catch passes out of the backfield yet they continue to have Ben drop back and wait, looking for those 60 yard bombs down the field. It just seems like thing could be done to counteract the poor O line play but nothing changes.

The NFL has changed whether we like it or not and to be competitive the Steelers need to adapt. That doesn't mean that they can't have an effective running game, it just means that scoring points is at a premium in the NFL now. The rules have been changed to encourage more passing and more scoring because Goodell thinks that is what fans want to see. THAT is why I have a hard time understanding why the Steelers keep avoiding addressing the O line and secondary issues. In fact, I say screw the secondary because the way the rules are, they aren't allowed to play football anyway. No, just load up on offense and outscore your opponent every week.

It's no coincidence that the Steelers won their two recent SBs by going with a more pass happy attack. That is why the Pats, Saints, Packers and Colts have all won recently too. Teams like the Ravens and Jets who are run first offenses haven't made it there have they? That is because you need to score points to win these games. You simply aren't going to be able to beat the Saints, Packers, Pats and Colts with a 10-3 or 13-10 score. They will score points on you and you need to score in order to win.

With the aging defense that the Steelers have, the offense needs to have long, successful drives to take the pressure off of them. It doesn't matter if you run the ball or dink and dunk pass it up the field, sustained drives to keep the defense fresh are important.

Look, we aren't saying that the Steelers suck and I will root for them till the day I die even through the inevitable 6-10 and 5-11 seasons to come. We are simply stating areas that the Steelers need to improve in or adapt in to keep their competitiveness in a changing game. Basically, if they don't have a good O line, find ways for Ben to get rid of the ball earlier and keep him from getting pounded. I was under the impression that Arians and Ben were working on this in training camp but have yet to see it in a game.

I agree Ben would benefit from a system which took advantage of a defense's weakness and was designed to get rid of the ball quickly, at least when it comes to taking sacks. But, I still don't think Ben would do well in such a system. I also don't think an objective analysis would find any system in which Ben would do better than Brady, Manning, or Rodgers, including ours.

Cassell took 47 sacks in the same system Brady takes 20. Collins is on pace to take 40 sacks in the same system Manning takes less than 20. You should see, then, it's not all about the system.

The Steelers system makes quarterbacks more prone to take sacks, but that doesn't necessarily mean Ben would take significantly less sacks in a west cost system. He'd probably still pump fake about 10 times before each throw. The west coast offensive certainly is not Ben's forte, I think you would agree.

You guys seem to underrate a quarterback's role in taking sacks.

Rick5895
09-23-2011, 10:09 AM
I agree Ben would benefit from a system which took advantage of a defense's weakness and was designed to get rid of the ball quickly, at least when it comes to taking sacks. But, I still don't think Ben would do well in such a system. I also don't think an objective analysis would find any system in which Ben would do better than Brady, Manning, or Rodgers, including ours.

Cassell took 47 sacks in the same system Brady takes 20. Collins is on pace to take 40 sacks in the same system Manning takes less than 20. You should see, then, it's not all about the system.

The Steelers system makes quarterbacks more prone to take sacks, but that doesn't necessarily mean Ben would take significantly less sacks in a west cost system. He'd probably still pump fake about 10 times before each throw. The west coast offensive certainly is not Ben's forte, I think you would agree.

You guys seem to underrate a quarterback's role in taking sacks.

I agree with what you are saying with respect to Collins and Cassel to a point. However, both teams have to take the reigns in when it comes to those QB's, Manning typically goes to the line with 3 or 4 plays and is basically an OC on the field. Brady is similiar. Collins is unable to do that right now because of his limited time in the Colts complex offense. Cassel is just horrible. I don't think your intent is to say those two (Collins and cassel) are in the same league as Ben but thats the way it comes across. I notice that when the Steelers go "no huddle" and Ben is calling his plays from the line the sacks go down and the tempo increases.
IMO the Steelers should use the no huddle more and IMO our scoring would go up and sacks would be down.

steelfury02
09-23-2011, 10:28 AM
As we all know with the defensive line starters and their capable backups- this team doesn't throw them into the fire regardless of potential - they have their system and they know when they will feel comfortable enough putting a supposedly unproven guy in (although in my mind - Hood has more than proven himself with last season's performance)

I'll take that same stance with the no-huddle. Ben and Bruce said the young receivers and young offensive linemen need to get with the program before they feel comfortable enough to employ it more often. If I get up early and often on teams, I'd take a stab at trying it at least 1 or 2 series a game. The flip side to this is that while they might not be clicking enough now to take it out for a spin, maybe this will be a better recipe for later in the year when some teams aren't expecting it out of them.

Something about this team not showing all their cards. That's a speculative statement, but we tend to take it to another level when the chips are down . . .

My concern is with teams recent success exploiting tricky dick lebeau's defense - he has one heck of a legacy as a player and a coach - just hoping he has some tricks up his sleeve.

cloppbeast
09-23-2011, 10:38 AM
I don't think your intent is to say those two (Collins and cassel) are in the same league as Ben but thats the way it comes across.

If that's the way it came off, I appologize. I didn't bring up Cassell and Collins to compare with Ben. I only brought them up in response to the whole "it's the system" argument.

Manning and Brady are less products of their systems as their systems are products of them. To say Brady and Manning are only good because they have good coaching and a good offensive line is a very ignorant statement. For one thing, Manning hasn't even had a great offensive line throughout his whole carreer. Secondly, if that were the case, we would see their backups perform just as admirably. Not so.

And, TBH, I don't think Ben would do much better in either the Colts system or the Patriots system than Collins or Cassell. His skillset fits the Martz style of football almost exclusively. He doesn't have the well-rounded quarterback ability to do well in a west-coast system, IMO.

I notice that when the Steelers go "no huddle" and Ben is calling his plays from the line the sacks go down and the tempo increases.
IMO the Steelers should use the no huddle more and IMO our scoring would go up and sacks would be down.

I agree; Ben does much better in the no huddle, and he takes less sacks. It seems BA hinders him. But, I don't know how well Ben would do if he ran an offense exclusively from the no-huddle. I would have to see it. It's certainly possible the no-huddle only works as a change of pace because the defense hadn't prepared for it. Maybe that's why the coaching staff doesn't let him do it; or maybe the coaching staff just wants controll of the offense. :noidea:

The no-huddle has looked terrible recently though. On the final drive in the SB and against the Ravens week 1, it took 20 seconds to get the play off! Perhaps the new young WRs can't grasp it. So, IDK.......

finesward
09-23-2011, 11:41 AM
I did reply to your post. Weren't you the guy who said Manning or Brady would take 60 sacks if they played on the Steelers? I debunked that ridiculous assertion.

As far as Ben's comebacks, I give him credit. He's got ice in his vains, I give him that.



Those stats overlook his biggest weakness, taking sacks. If sacks counted as attempts, or if sack yards lost came off of his average per completion, his stats wouldn't look nearly as good. Whoever invented those statistics did Ben a favor when they didn't account for sacks.

No I wasn't that guy. I'm the guy that debunked your comparison of Ben to Trent Dilfer. You said to another poster name 1 game ben won for us, then used pass attempts per game and win-loss comparisons to prove your point. If anything Ben has shown he can put up big time yards through the air (the 09 GB game comes to mind) but like your stats show thats not usually good for our defense.

This is old but proves my point about where ben will eventually rank when him and balls deep brady are retired:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=3401
Ben Roethlisberger already having 15 legit comebacks in five seasons is pretty impressive. If he can stay healthy and the Steelers continue their winning ways, he could be a threat to challenge the record holder (which is Elway, should be Marino, probably will be Peyton) some day. In the 2008 Steelers media guide, they list Ben as having 13 game-winning drives in the 4th QT/OT (12 reg. season, 1 postseason). Yet in the press release for Super Bowl 43, they say Roethlisberger had 5 during the 2008 season for a total of 17. Either they forgot to count the postseason one they had in the media guide, or they donít want to count the postseason. With his drive against Arizona, Ben has 19 overall 4th quarter wins and 15 comebacks.

As good of a QB I think he is, he does make some really bad decisions with the ball sometimes. From last year always trying to flick the ball away when getting sacked to this year at balt just throwing the ball to whoever to get it, that's one downside to having him behind center. So I can concede that part to ya

cloppbeast
09-23-2011, 01:06 PM
No I wasn't that guy. I'm the guy that debunked your comparison of Ben to Trent Dilfer. You said to another poster name 1 game ben won for us, then used pass attempts per game and win-loss comparisons to prove your point.

The point I made, which wasn't debunked BTW, was Ben's MO, winning, has more to do with the team he plays for than his quarterback skill. Anybody who objectively looks at his numbers will come to the same conclusion.

Sure, he probably has one a few games for us. But more often, his team has won the game for him. Which is exactly why the Steelers have just under 90% winning percentage when Ben throws the ball less than 30 times, but a winning percentage under 50% when he throws the ball more than 30 times.

If he was supposedly the elite quarterback you propose, why does his team benefit from not letting him air it out?

your stats show thats not usually good for our defense.

You're getting the cart before the horse. The defense doesn't give up points when Ben throws, Ben throws when the defense gives up points. You mix up the causal relationship, a common error when reading statistics.

If anything Ben has shown he can put up big time yards through the air (the 09 GB game comes to mind) but like your stats show thats not usually good for our defense.

He showed he can put up big yards through the air, but he doesn't do it consistently. How did his next game go against Green Bay?

This is old but proves my point about where ben will eventually rank when him and balls deep brady are retired:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=3401

Lucky Ben has a defense which can keep him team in the game so he can squeeze out a fourth quarter drive to win 17-13. lol.

Take that Tom Brady and all your League MVPs, your Super Bowl MVP, your TD record and shove it up your ass. lol.

Disregarding the sarcasm, I do give Ben credit for his clutchness. He seems to find ways to win tight games; the games are only tight because he plays on the Steelers. But that doesn't even make him remotely better than Tom Brady. If you haven't noticed, handsome also finds ways to win tight games. Perhaps you missed his 3 game winning 4rth quarter Super Bowl drives.

Also, Tom Brady does good enough in the first 3 quarters that he doesn't need a comeback in the 4th quarter to win as often. He also doesn't need his defense to hold his opponent to 17 points to win most games.

Steelersfan87
09-23-2011, 01:27 PM
The point I made, which wasn't debunked BTW, was Ben's MO, winning, has more to do with the team he plays for than his quarterback skill. Anybody who objectively looks at his numbers will come to the same conclusion.

Sure, he probably has one a few games for us. But more often, his team has won the game for him. Which is exactly why the Steelers have just under 90% winning percentage when Ben throws the ball less than 30 times, but a winning percentage under 50% when he throws the ball more than 30 times.

If he was supposedly the elite quarterback you propose, why does his team benefit from not letting him air it out?

Nice leap in logic there. Just because a quarterback doesn't throw 45 times a game yet the team still wins doesn't mean that he's not an elite talent. He doesn't throw as often as some others because it's not necessary for him to do so unless his team is losing (which is why, the more he throws, the more likely his team is to lose; though I would assume this applies almost universally to all quarterbacks). Another factor in him having less throws is because he tends to throw the ball deeper, and his receivers get more YAC than the average team. Obviously the more yards you get per throw, the less throws you will be able to make within a 100 yard field.

cloppbeast
09-23-2011, 01:41 PM
Nice leap in logic there. Just because a quarterback doesn't throw 45 times a game yet the team still wins doesn't mean that he's not an elite talent.

Maybe you need to rethink your logic....

I didn't claim he sucked because he plays on a good team.

I down-played the significance of his wins, because ya'll are the ones claiming he's awesome due to his winning percentage. I pointed out his winning percentage has less to do with him and more to do with his team.

A quarterback isn't bad simply because he played on a good team, but he also isn't a great quarterback just because he won on a good team.

That was my logic.

Another factor in him having less throws is because he tends to throw the ball deeper, and his receivers get more YAC than the average team. Obviously the more yards you get per throw, the less throws you will be able to make within a 100 yard field.

To see if this thought is correct, I doubt it, but perhaps you should look at his yards per game compared to that of true elite quarterbacks.

Steelersfan87
09-23-2011, 01:58 PM
Why are you associating me with the arguments of other people? I never said that you claimed that he sucked. I'm also not part of "ya'll". I'm responding to a specific section of a specific post that you made. Obviously anybody that plays on a quality team is going to benefit from playing on a quality team. But being on a quality team also contributes to the fact that he doesn't have to put up "elite quarterback numbers" on a game-to-game basis, and it is a false assumption to claim that because he doesn't consistently produce those numbers, that he is not an elite quarterback talent.

Roethlisberger's average yards per game through this point of his career is consistent with Tom Brady's through the equivalent portion of his career, by the way. He currently has the 14th most yards per game in NFL history for QBs in their first 7 seasons, and his YPG has generally increased over the more recent seasons.

cloppbeast
09-23-2011, 02:30 PM
Why are you associating me with the arguments of other people?

Sorry for the presumption; but in my defense, you did interject into a discussion I had with someone else and erroneously called me illogical. You seemed to take my opposititions side, so I stereotyped. Forgive me.

I'm responding to a specific section of a specific post that you made.

My specific post responsed to a guy saying Ben was awesome because he wins. My post should only be evaluated within that scope. My only intent was to counter his argument.

He might win, but he wins because of his team. So don't say he's a great quarterback because he wins. That was my point. It is valid. Just move on.

Obviously anybody that plays on a quality team is going to benefit from playing on a quality team.

Tom Brady also benefits from a good team. So does Ben. This is a strawman.

But being on a quality team also contributes to the fact that he doesn't have to put up "elite quarterback numbers" on a game-to-game basis, and it is a false assumption to claim that because he doesn't consistently produce those numbers, that he is not an elite quarterback talent.

False assumption? I made no assumption. WTF are talking about?

I didn't even talk about numbers, anyway. I watch Ben play. I watch other quarterback's play. I observe how they run their offenses. Ben doesn't run his offense as efficiently as other quarterback. This has little to do with his stats.

Roethlisberger's average yards per game through this point of his career is consistent with Tom Brady's through the equivalent portion of his career, by the way. He currently has the 14th most yards per game in NFL history for QBs in their first 7 seasons, and his YPG has generally increased over the more recent seasons.

14th!? Impressive. lol. Who were the 14 who were better? How many quarterbacks who played during the modern era played 7 seasons starting from year one anyway? I doubt many.

Ben has thrown for more than 4,000 yards once in his career. Aside from that, he's been pretty pedestrian, throwing for over 3,500 yards one other season. In 8 seasons, he's only thrown for more than 3,500 yards twice. Wow. Impressive. Sounds elite to me. lol.

Tom Brady has thrown less than 3,500 yards just once.

Looks like you forgot to throw the grenade after you pulled the pin. Kind of blew up in your face there.

I must admit, Ben could have had a good yardage season last year had he used his brain in the off-season. But it comes with the terrotory. It's part of the whole package with this clown. With Brady, one doesn't need to worry what stupid decision he'll make next.

finesward
09-23-2011, 02:44 PM
Maybe you need to rethink your logic....

I didn't claim he sucked because he plays on a good team.

I down-played the significance of his wins, because ya'll are the ones claiming he's awesome due to his winning percentage. I pointed out his winning percentage has less to do with him and more to do with his team.

A quarterback isn't bad simply because he played on a good team, but he also isn't a great quarterback just because he won on a good team.

That was my logic.



To see if this thought is correct, I doubt it, but perhaps you should look at his yards per game compared to that of true elite quarterbacks.

Awesome, great, elite, good...whatever label you want to throw at him or whatever ranking you want to place him at or whichever QB you want to compare him to, please refresh your memory as to what it was like BEFORE him with a consistently good defense and kordell, or tommy gun manning the QB position. You cant discredit the guy because he throws accurately, has a high completion percentage and can make big plays by playing a different style than the "elite" qb's. I'd rather have a QB that can win games while having a great defense, than hinge my entire team on one guy (like the pats) We have seen that we can win without ben last season. Doesn't it make more sense to have a great team vs. having an elite QB?

We all saw what happened to the pats without brady and currently what the colts are like without manning.

As far to the rest of what you've said, doden's gray has my proxy. Nobody is saying ben is awesome (please show me post where that was said btw) Nobody is saying he is a better QB than Brady... You said he was more like a trent dilfer, i'm saying he has been a qb that has won games for us (with the 4th q comebacks and game winning drives) even if he contributed to them being down to begin with it shouldn't discredit that he found a way to win those ugly games. Wins matter, and he's a winner. The 09 season how many of those losses were on ben and how many were on the defense that blew 4th quarter lead after 4th quarter lead?

cloppbeast
09-23-2011, 03:20 PM
Awesome, great, elite, good...whatever label you want to throw at him or whatever ranking you want to place him at or whichever QB you want to compare him to, please refresh your memory as to what it was like BEFORE him with a consistently good defense and kordell, or tommy gun manning the QB position.

Ok. Fair enough. I admit, Ben is better than Kordell, Kent Grahm, Mike Tomzak, Neil O'Donnell. and Tommy Maddox.

You cant discredit the guy because he throws accurately, has a high completion percentage and can make big plays by playing a different style than the "elite" qb's.

I don't discredit the guy for making plays in a different style. I discredit him for not being as good as other quarterbacks. I don't think I've even commented on his "style."

Although, check out his haircut here. Very classy:

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/157046/BEN-ROETHLISBERGER-HAIRCUT.jpg

I'd rather have a QB that can win games while having a great defense, than hinge my entire team on one guy (like the pats)

Me too. But I'd prefer brains rather than brawn from a quarterback in general.

We have seen that we can win without ben last season. Doesn't it make more sense to have a great team vs. having an elite QB?

Yes. But we don't need to pay our quarterback like he's Tom Brady, though. Do we?

You said he was more like a trent dilfer,

He is better than Dilfer; I was being hyperbolic. He's in the same mold, though.

Wins matter, and he's a winner.

So is Bruce Arians, and William Gay..........

steelerjim58
09-23-2011, 04:04 PM
To the individual who said we have seen we can win without Ben last year, do you honestly believe that the Steelers finish above .500 if he were out the entire year?

If the Steelers commit to a passing game like the Saints. patriots and Packers, Ben will put up numbers that equal any qb in the league.

cloppbeast
09-23-2011, 04:11 PM
To the individual who said we have seen we can win without Ben last year, do you honestly believe that the Steelers finish above .500 if he were out the entire year?

Absolutely not. He's the best quarterback on the team, and Batch ain't that good.

If the Steelers commit to a passing game like the Saints. patriots and Packers, Ben will put up numbers that equal any qb in the league.

And the Steelers wouldn't win, either.

Kanata-Steeler
09-23-2011, 04:23 PM
Absolutely not. He's the best quarterback on the team, and Batch ain't that good.



And the Steelers wouldn't win, either.

Ok whatever, please explain the utter smokin' from the Ravens where your Hero -Ben caused 5, or 6 of all those turnovers, 3 or 4 of which led directly to 7 points each for the Ravens to pump 'da score.
BEN LOST THAT GAME !, hello ?!
The days of "iLoveBen.com" are long over my friend.
GET OVER IT already lmao. Ben becomes (for the freekin' MONEY we paid him ?!) what Bradshaw and Montana achieved, else he lets the "D" do it for him. Thats his final course, and gratitude with and/or from the Steelers' history-wise.
And btw, once again, Batch won the 1st 3 of 4 games last year, when we needed that the most !,
... whereas Ben scrued up the next 2 after. If it wasn't for our Steelers "D" we would NOT have even played in any SB's -case closed. it's just a no-brainer now, and I'm so bored of hearing how Ben is the best QB on the team. ANY qb is only as good as his team that "deservedley" back's him thru' thick n thin.
get it thru u're heads plz.
"Smash-Mouth" football NEVER fades, simply 'cause it's smash mouth and it's football babies.

I'm just waitin' for the re-match with the Ranevs, Sun, 11/06, now that will be somethin' to behold as well.
I want VENGENCE for that one. I want a reverse score.

Beating the SeaHags (this year) don't mean squat, and it definitely does NOT make Ben the best QB, in fact, it never did, and never will. yawn.
:tt:

davidtrout
09-23-2011, 05:41 PM
Ok whatever, please explain the utter smokin' from the Ravens where your Hero -Ben caused 5, or 6 of all those turnovers, 3 or 4 of which led directly to 7 points each for the Ravens to pump 'da score.
BEN LOST THAT GAME !, hello ?!
The days of "iLoveBen.com" are long over my friend.
GET OVER IT already lmao. Ben becomes (for the freekin' MONEY we paid him ?!) what Bradshaw and Montana achieved, else he lets the "D" do it for him. Thats his final course, and gratitude with and/or from the Steelers' history-wise.
And btw, once again, Batch won the 1st 3 of 4 games last year, when we needed that the most !,
... whereas Ben scrued up the next 2 after. If it wasn't for our Steelers "D" we would NOT have even played in any SB's -case closed. it's just a no-brainer now, and I'm so bored of hearing how Ben is the best QB on the team. ANY qb is only as good as his team that "deservedley" back's him thru' thick n thin.
get it thru u're heads plz.
"Smash-Mouth" football NEVER fades, simply 'cause it's smash mouth and it's football babies.

I'm just waitin' for the re-match with the Ranevs, Sun, 11/06, now that will be somethin' to behold as well.
I want VENGENCE for that one. I want a reverse score.

Beating the SeaHags (this year) don't mean squat, and it definitely does NOT make Ben the best QB, in fact, it never did, and never will. yawn.
:tt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

Steelersfan87
09-23-2011, 06:10 PM
My specific post responsed to a guy saying Ben was awesome because he wins. My post should only be evaluated within that scope. My only intent was to counter his argument.

Actually, that's a load of shit. I'm responding to claims and insinuations that you made. That's irrelevant to whether or not you were responding to somebody Else. You insinuated that, because when Ben throws the ball 31 times or more the team loses at a far higher percent (and that, "therefore", according to you, that means that "his team won the game for him" as though the QB is separate from the team) than when he throws 30 times or less, he is not an elite QB. You explicitly state, in the form of a question, that Ben is not an elite QB because, according to you, the team benefits from "not letting him air it out". What you conveniently fail to account for is that the ratio of the offense that is made up of passes is a false indicator of how important a QB is to a team, or how good said QB is.

He might win, but he wins because of his team. So don't say he's a great quarterback because he wins. That was my point. It is valid. Just move on.

Everybody is on a team, and therefore wins because of his team when he does win. Just move on.

[QUOTE=cloppbeast;945990]Tom Brady also benefits from a good team. So does Ben. This is a strawman.[/qoute]

You dolt, I didn't state this to disagree with you in any way. This is hardly a strawmen, as I was simply making a statement of fact. The point being that quarterbacks tend to win more when they're on better teams. I wasn't disagreeing with you that the team's winning percentage with Roethlisberger under center necessarily means that he's an elite quarterback.

[QUOTE=cloppbeast;945990]False assumption? I made no assumption. WTF are talking about?

I didn't even talk about numbers, anyway. I watch Ben play. I watch other quarterback's play. I observe how they run their offenses. Ben doesn't run his offense as efficiently as other quarterback. This has little to do with his stats.

You were the one that brought up the stats about him throwing 30 or 31 passes. You imply that elite quarterbacks should be able to throw the ball 35-40 times a game and win consistently, and you assume that Roethlisberger can't do this because he doesn't. Yet you fail to account for the fact that the team has such a poor record when Roethlisberger throws that many passes is primarily due to the fact that he throws more when the team is already losing. Him throwing more is not what causes the team to lose, it's a byproduct of the team having already fallen behind (which, oddly, often means that he's losing because of the team, instead of the team winning him games).

14th!? Impressive. lol. Who were the 14 who were better? How many quarterbacks who played during the modern era played 7 seasons starting from year one anyway? I doubt many.

Among those ahead of him are Carson Palmer and Drew Bledsoe. YPG doesn't necessarily mean much, which I took you to be implying when you asked me to compare his YPG to "true elite QBs", unless you'd like to backpedal from that. And since the stat that we're talking about is not a cumulative one, it matters not how early the player started playing in his career. If anything, it would most likely have a negative affect on his career YPG to have been starting since the 3rd game of his career, as compared to players like Steve Young and Aaron Rodgers, who had time to mature and develop before they were thrown into the fire.

Ben has thrown for more than 4,000 yards once in his career. Aside from that, he's been pretty pedestrian, throwing for over 3,500 yards one other season. In 8 seasons, he's only thrown for more than 3,500 yards twice. Wow. Impressive. Sounds elite to me. lol.

He would have easily thrown for 4,000 yards last year if he didn't miss 4 games. Regardless, using a statistic like that to determine whether or QB is elite is myopic at best. There's a difference between a player with elite talent and a player that puts up numbers that are generally accepted as those an elite player would produce.

Tom Brady has thrown less than 3,500 yards just once.


That's what happens when you throw 500 to 600 times a year. Notice that his YPA is almost consistently lower as well.

Looks like you forgot to throw the grenade after you pulled the pin. Kind of blew up in your face there.

Yeah, when you completely ignore the context of applicable statistics and specific team dynamics. There's no denying that Roethlisberger is generally one of the more unconventional quarterbacks in recent times, making it difficult to compare at times.

DanRooney
09-23-2011, 06:20 PM
Really? A Charlie Batch is better than Ben post? lol...

You guys are complaining about the wrong people on the team.

SteelCityMom
09-23-2011, 06:23 PM
Ok whatever, please explain the utter smokin' from the Ravens where your Hero -Ben caused 5, or 6 of all those turnovers, 3 or 4 of which led directly to 7 points each for the Ravens to pump 'da score.
BEN LOST THAT GAME !, hello ?!
The days of "iLoveBen.com" are long over my friend.
GET OVER IT already lmao. Ben becomes (for the freekin' MONEY we paid him ?!) what Bradshaw and Montana achieved, else he lets the "D" do it for him. Thats his final course, and gratitude with and/or from the Steelers' history-wise.
And btw, once again, Batch won the 1st 3 of 4 games last year, when we needed that the most !,
... whereas Ben scrued up the next 2 after. If it wasn't for our Steelers "D" we would NOT have even played in any SB's -case closed. it's just a no-brainer now, and I'm so bored of hearing how Ben is the best QB on the team. ANY qb is only as good as his team that "deservedley" back's him thru' thick n thin.
get it thru u're heads plz.
"Smash-Mouth" football NEVER fades, simply 'cause it's smash mouth and it's football babies.

I'm just waitin' for the re-match with the Ranevs, Sun, 11/06, now that will be somethin' to behold as well.
I want VENGENCE for that one. I want a reverse score.

Beating the SeaHags (this year) don't mean squat, and it definitely does NOT make Ben the best QB, in fact, it never did, and never will. yawn.
:tt:

You probably should have read clopps other posts in this thread before going on this rant...just sayin', you might not have made this post directed at him. :wink02:

To everyone else...I've been busy for a couple of days, and haven't kept up on all comments on all threads, but wherever this ridiculous idea came from that we all have to have the same opinion on Ben, or the Steelers in general is NOT true. People shouldn't be flamed for having a different opinion on something, if that opinion is presented respectfully. This forum should be all about being able to share and debate your thoughts on the Steelers (or anything else for that matter), and not following some kind of groupthink. In the end we all (for the most part lol) want the Steelers to do well...no reason for all the in house hatred.

/rant and Go Steelers!!! :tt03:

steelerjim58
09-23-2011, 06:30 PM
Wow, one thing this discussion proves is how far apart people can be on the same subject. Some people seem to think Ben is just a run of the mill qb. Others think he is one of the best in the league. I personally think he is one of the best. In the final analysis it is nothing more than debate.

cloppbeast
09-23-2011, 07:50 PM
What you conveniently fail to account for is that the ratio of the offense that is made up of passes is a false indicator of how important a QB is to a team, or how good said QB is.

Well, then, what stat do I need to find in order to show you Ben is not the major reason the Steelers win?

I thought I could point to the fact his team has a higher winning percentage when he doesn't throw that much. I thought this shows his team, particularly his defense carries him, not vise-versa. Perhaps not. What else can I do to show you?

Could I point to the fact he is 21-27 in games in which his defense gives up 20 or more points?

You were the one that brought up the stats about him throwing 30 or 31 passes. You imply that elite quarterbacks should be able to throw the ball 35-40 times a game and win consistently

That's not what I was implying at all....... sorry you took it that way.

and you assume that Roethlisberger can't do this because he doesn't.

I've watched him fail at doing it more than he's succeeded, so I know he doesn't do it that well.

Yet you fail to account for the fact that the team has such a poor record when Roethlisberger throws that many passes is primarily due to the fact that he throws more when the team is already losing. Him throwing more is not what causes the team to lose, it's a byproduct of the team having already fallen behind (which, oddly, often means that he's losing because of the team, instead of the team winning him games).

I agree with you. His team runs the ball well, his defense holds, he doesn't have to pass that much. He's a product of a system that doesn't need an elite quarterback to win. He isn't elite quarterback, and the team still wins.

When his defense gives up a few points, he's a loser not a winner. He wins because of his defense. His team went 3-1 without him last year beating two 10-win teams and the 1-seed of the NFC. Ben is not that important.....

Among those ahead of him are Carson Palmer and Drew Bledsoe. YPG doesn't necessarily mean much

I agree.

So why did you bring it up? lol

If anything, it would most likely have a negative affect on his career YPG to have been starting since the 3rd game of his career, as compared to players like Steve Young and Aaron Rodgers, who had time to mature and develop before they were thrown into the fire.

Fair enough. But as you stated before, this stat " doesn't necessarily mean much".

He would have easily thrown for 4,000 yards last year if he didn't miss 4 games. Regardless, using a statistic like that to determine whether or QB is elite is myopic at best.

Again, I ask, why did you bring it up? just to dismiss it when it blew up in your face?

There's a difference between a player with elite talent and a player that puts up numbers that are generally accepted as those an elite player would produce.

I agree. John Elway was equal the quarterback of Marino, maybe only slightly worse. But Marino's stats are much better. It's more about quality input for victories IMO.

I don't know if you've heard of the new QBR (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/6833215/explaining-statistics-total-quarterback-rating) stat, but I think most accurately measures quarterback play. Read about it, see what you think.

cloppbeast
09-23-2011, 07:52 PM
Really? A Charlie Batch is better than Ben post? lol...

You guys are complaining about the wrong people on the team.

I did a lot of complaining about a lot of different people. Seems they only took offense when I said Ben isn't good enough to carry this team......

DanRooney
09-23-2011, 07:55 PM
I did a lot of complaining about a lot of different people. Seems they only took offense when I said Ben isn't good enough to carry this team......

How many QBs are 'good enough' to carry teams by themselves? Peyton, Brady, Brees and Rodgers probably. The rest I'm not so sure about.

cubanstogie
09-23-2011, 07:58 PM
considering we have the worst o line in the league and allegedly the worst o coordinator in the league Ben would have to be elite in order to have the record he has. We certainly haven't had a RB carry the team since Bettis.

Atlanta Dan
09-23-2011, 08:00 PM
We certainly haven't had a RB carry the team since Bettis.

Other than John Kuhn of course

cloppbeast
09-23-2011, 09:28 PM
How many QBs are 'good enough' to carry teams by themselves? Peyton, Brady, Brees and Rodgers probably. The rest I'm not so sure about.

There are about 8 or 10 better equipped than Ben.

cubanstogie
09-23-2011, 09:39 PM
There are about 8 or 10 better equipped than Ben.

everyone entitled to their own opinion, but in the last few years I have heard people mention guys like Palmer, Schaub, McNabb, Cassel, and even David Garrard are better than Ben. Forgot Romo and Eli as well. My personal opinion is there are mayber 4 to 5 max better equipped than Ben. Rivers isn't one of them, he would be killed with our line. Rivers has had more Talent than Ben has year in and year out and hasn't done squat to get the recognition he has got, except throw for a ton of yardage. I think if Ben had time to throw he could carry the offense as well as the upper tier QB's.

cloppbeast
09-23-2011, 09:42 PM
considering we have the worst o line in the league and allegedly the worst o coordinator in the league

:blah:Two thirds of the NFL has allegedly the worst o coordinator in the league.

Ben would have to be elite in order to have the record he has.

I'm not buying it. Elite quarterbacks leave no room to blame the OC because they make their OC's look good.

cloppbeast
09-23-2011, 09:46 PM
everyone entitled to their own opinion, but in the last few years I have heard people mention guys like Palmer, Schaub, McNabb, Cassel, and even David Garrard are better than Ben. Forgot Romo and Eli as well. My personal opinion is there are mayber 4 to 5 max better equipped than Ben. Rivers isn't one of them, he would be killed with our line. Rivers has had more Talent than Ben has year in and year out and hasn't done squat to get the recognition he has got, except throw for a ton of yardage. I think if Ben had time to throw he could carry the offense as well as the upper tier QB's.

Rodgers
Brady
Manning (assuming a new neck)
Rivers
Ryan
Romo
Freeman

Possibly even Bradford and Stafford. I'd like to see Bradford with a few more weapons around him, and I'd have to see Stafford stay healthy for a whole season.

cubanstogie
09-23-2011, 09:49 PM
:blah:Two thirds of the NFL has allegedly the worst o coordinator in the league.



I'm not buying it. Elite quarterbacks leave no room to blame the OC because they make their OC's look good.

my point was more pointed to the Arians haters. I just don't know how the Steelers could win 2 of 3 SB's they were in, in the last six years with a terrible line, terrible OC and a non elite QB. Something there has to give.

cubanstogie
09-23-2011, 09:53 PM
Rodgers
Brady
Manning (assuming a new neck)
Rivers
Ryan
Romo
Freeman

Possibly even Bradford and Stafford. I'd like to see Bradford with a few more weapons around him, and I'd have to see Stafford stay healthy for a whole season.

Romo and Freeman are a stretch. I admit I don't like Rivers, or the fact that he is one dimensional so I wouldn't pick him over Ben. But I am probably in the minority.

cloppbeast
09-23-2011, 09:54 PM
Romo and Freeman are a stretch. I admit I don't like Rivers, or the fact that he is one dimensional so I wouldn't pick him over Ben. But I am probably in the minority.

What do you mean by one-dimensional?

tanda10506
09-23-2011, 09:57 PM
Lots of opinions on here and thats fine but the fact is Ben does carry the team and wins games for us, sorry but thats the way it is. No QB can single handedly carry a team, if Brady and Manning had our o line they would be half as good. I dont consider Brees quite on the level of those 3 and Rodgers sure as hell isnt. Rodgers might end up the best ever, he looks good, but he hadnt won a playoff game till last year and he is 2-14 in close games, he still has some proving to do. On the same note, with the colts or pats defense we wouldnt win as much. To say 8-10 are better "equipped" then Ben is dilusional. Our team is probably good enough to win 9 games with Batch but we wont beat good teams or go to the playoffs let alone win in the playoffs without Ben.

cubanstogie
09-23-2011, 09:57 PM
What do you mean by one-dimensional?

I mean he is zero threat to take off and run or even scramble. I really don't recall even seeing him throw on the run. If Ben couldn't run or sramble I wouldn't be happy with him either.

tanda10506
09-23-2011, 10:05 PM
There are about 8 or 10 better equipped than Ben.

Rodgers
Brady
Manning (assuming a new neck)
Rivers
Ryan
Romo
Freeman

Possibly even Bradford and Stafford. I'd like to see Bradford with a few more weapons around him, and I'd have to see Stafford stay healthy for a whole season.

:toofunny: Lmao 2nd year Freeman, Ryan, and choke-o Romo?? You sir are clearly ignorant. This the first time I have insulted anybody on this forum, that should so you how ridiculous your statements are. Freeman and Romo lol go join a fantasy league and stop stirring stuff up with your complete stupidity.

Wallace108
09-23-2011, 10:16 PM
To everyone else...I've been busy for a couple of days, and haven't kept up on all comments on all threads, but wherever this ridiculous idea came from that we all have to have the same opinion on Ben, or the Steelers in general is NOT true. People shouldn't be flamed for having a different opinion on something, if that opinion is presented respectfully. This forum should be all about being able to share and debate your thoughts on the Steelers (or anything else for that matter), and not following some kind of groupthink. In the end we all (for the most part lol) want the Steelers to do well...no reason for all the in house hatred.

/rant and Go Steelers!!! :tt03:

:applaudit:

It's probably a good thing we won last week, or else we'd really be at each other's throats. :chuckle:

PhantomJB93
09-23-2011, 10:16 PM
That's what always pisses me off, I have no problem when people say Ben is only 6th-8th best in the league but when people start saying things like Romo, Schaub, Freeman, Ryan, Flacco should be above him, that's when it gets ridiculous. Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, even Vick if last year wasn't a fluke I won't really argue, but when you start saying Josh Freeman or Tony Romo are better, that's where I have to draw the line.

cloppbeast
09-23-2011, 11:58 PM
Lots of opinions on here and thats fine but the fact is Ben does carry the team and wins games for us, sorry but thats the way it is.

Ok. I get it. lol

My view is an opinion; you're view is a fact......

Nice verbal slight of hand. You should write speeches for Obama.

Rodgers might end up the best ever, he looks good, but he hadnt won a playoff game till last year and he is 2-14 in close games, he still has some proving to do.

:doh:

Our team is probably good enough to win 9 games with Batch but we wont beat good teams or go to the playoffs let alone win in the playoffs without Ben.

So......in other words, to make a long story short: he's better than Batch. That should get him in Canton.

cloppbeast
09-24-2011, 12:03 AM
I mean he is zero threat to take off and run or even scramble. I really don't recall even seeing him throw on the run. If Ben couldn't run or sramble I wouldn't be happy with him either.

The threat to run is a bit overrated, in my opinion. Dan Marino, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady had no threat to run and one could make the argument these are the three best QBs of all time.

cloppbeast
09-24-2011, 12:11 AM
This the first time I have insulted anybody on this forum, that should so you how ridiculous your statements are.

Not really.

The most ridiculous statements on a forum are insults.

Further, that you would result to an insult because I had a unconventional opinion, before even asking for my reasoning - that's kind of ridiculous too, actually.

tony hipchest
09-24-2011, 12:30 AM
Not really.

The most ridiculous statements on a forum are insults.

Further, that you would result to an insult because I had a unconventional opinion, before even asking for my reasoning - that's kind of ridiculous too, actually.

not really. the most rediculous statements on this forum is defending a bungle who is caught in a sting operation by the feds for the trafficking and distribution of illegal drugs and then apologizing for him as if he had been picked on for puffing on a jay at a party.

thats not unconventional. thats straight up wacky and looney :screwy:

sometimes bullshit that absurd doesnt even justify an opportunity for reasoning. im afraid the flushing of your own "credibility" down the toilet is your own doing.

the trainwreck is still fun to witness, though. carry on. :popcorn:

tanda10506
09-24-2011, 01:07 AM
Ok. I get it. lol

My view is an opinion; you're view is a fact......

Nice verbal slight of hand. You should write speeches for Obama.

So......in other words, to make a long story short: he's better than Batch. That should get him in Canton.

My view isn't a fact because it's my view, it's a fact because it's what happens on the actual football field.You have a major disconnect from PERSONAL stats and what actually happens on the football field to the point that it makes me question if you actually watch any of the games. I told you Ben carries the team and wins games for us, it's a fact because THAT'S WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS! As far as your "expression" on my Rodgers comments, that to is fact. It is a fact that he has lost almost every close game he has been in, it is a fact that he's lost all previous playoff games until last year. You can argue that he's throwing the most accurate in football, some would say Brady is, and since there is nothing to prove that either way it is an opinion, but it's a fact, the record shows, he loses close games and has only won playoff games one year. Again, that's what actually happens on the field. As for the "long story short", being better then Batch does not make you a hall of famer. I've given you facts and I don't want to justify Ben going into the hall of fame on opinion because that would obviously confuse you, so I will use fact again, 2 SB wins, 3 SB appearances, consistently in the playoffs, and plenty of 4th quarter come backs and game winning drives, one of them in the SB. Your clearly not going to change your opinion, and that's absolutely fine, but the claims your making contradict fact and that's why you are running into so much resistance. Trying to put Ben at a level lower then the opinion of most Steeler fans is one thing, but when you try to put him lower then the facts show he is, after all he's done (not single handedly I know) to get us 2 SB's, beat the Ravens almost every time, and go to a 3rd SB: that's nonsense, it's disrespect, and it's not based on what ACTUALLY HAPPENS, and it's not going to fly with people who actually watch what happens on the field.

Rick5895
09-24-2011, 07:00 AM
Ok. I get it. lol

My view is an opinion; you're view is a fact......

Nice verbal slight of hand. You should write speeches for Obama.



:doh:



So......in other words, to make a long story short: he's better than Batch. That should get him in Canton.


Sir, that statement from you that you are accusing tando of is exactly what have been doing on this thread for the past number of pages. You have "hijacked" this thread and tried to force your opinion down everyones throat as if its the gospel. While at times you have made some valid arguments, that validity gets lost in the sheer arrogance of your posts.
This is a news flash for you, YOU are not right because you continue to argue , these are opinions and when comparing QB's from different teams you are comparing apples to oranges.
Ben is right for this team right now,, He is a tough hard nosed QB that does whatever it takes to win a game, and sometimes that doesn't just rely on his arm. He will make a block that's needed, dive headfirst to get the extra yard, and for me thats what separates him from the majority. I certainly don't think Ben is the best QB in the NFL but he's certainly a guy I want on my team. You can quote all then stats you want, they don't tell the whole story, unless of course you are playing in a Fantasy league or on your xbox or PS3 playing Madden.
Enough of this, I am looking forward to the game Sunday night, which , hopefully sees us adding win number 2 in a convincing fashion.

:tt04:

Atlanta Dan
09-24-2011, 07:48 AM
Rodgers
Brady
Manning (assuming a new neck)
Rivers
Ryan
Romo
Freeman

Possibly even Bradford and Stafford. I'd like to see Bradford with a few more weapons around him, and I'd have to see Stafford stay healthy for a whole season.

Romo? - how many big games has that guy won (we all know how many he has lost)

I have seen Ryan - three years - no playoff wins

solardave
09-24-2011, 08:40 AM
:blah:Two thirds of the NFL has allegedly the worst o coordinator in the league.



I'm not buying it. Elite quarterbacks leave no room to blame the OC because they make their OC's look good.

The fact that you call (won't ever get to the big game cause I can't get the the NFCCG) Romo an elite QB tells us all that you don't know what you're talking about.

cloppbeast
09-24-2011, 09:15 AM
You have "hijacked" this thread and tried to force your opinion down everyones throat as if its the gospel. While at times you have made some valid arguments, that validity gets lost in the sheer arrogance of your posts.

I have hijacked this thread? lol

I made one comment about Ben not being good enough to carry this team of senior citizens, and I received a fire-storm as if I has blasphemed.

In any event, I have made numerous valid arguments and only heard a one or two in return - although I have received multiple personal insults.

This is a news flash for you, YOU are not right because you continue to argue

Does that mean the Ben apologists are right because they continue to argue? I'm not responding to my own posts....


He will make a block that's needed, dive headfirst to get the extra yard, and for me thats what separates him from the majority.

Great! We have a quarterback who can block! Yet, we don't have any lineman that can block. Perhaps we could try him out at right guard. lol

cloppbeast
09-24-2011, 09:16 AM
The fact that you call (won't ever get to the big game cause I can't get the the NFCCG) Romo an elite QB tells us all that you don't know what you're talking about.

When did I call Romo an elite quarterback, again?

cloppbeast
09-24-2011, 09:16 AM
Romo? - how many big games has that guy won (we all know how many he has lost)

I have seen Ryan - three years - no playoff wins

That's a pretty myopic way to look at it, IMO.

tanda10506
09-24-2011, 09:43 AM
That's a pretty myopic way to look at it, IMO.

No, it's a realistic way to look at it. Romo is a loser, his fantasy stats a few years ago does not save him from that. If I was going into the playoffs or any big game, Romo would be the very last QB in the NFL, he actually finds a way to lose, some even question if he's bought off it's so bad. Ryan is a good passer, not up to Ben's quality, but he doesn't win any big games, none. AGAIN, that's what seperates opinion from fact, the fact is Romo finds a way to lose games and Ryan hasn't won any of any significance, therefore they are not on Ben's level. Freeman is to young to even compare to Romo, playing well one year and watching the preseason on the couch does not make you a good NFL QB. To use a boxing analogy, Ben is a heavyweight champion, twice for that matter, and the people your comparing him to are guys fighting in junior leagues and local gyms. Could some of those guys look good and possibly rise up and win some and even be better then Ben one day, yes, but for now they are local fighters who want what Ben has, that is the ability to win games and championships.

cloppbeast
09-24-2011, 09:45 AM
My view isn't a fact because it's my view, it's a fact because it's what happens on the actual football field.You have a major disconnect from PERSONAL stats and what actually happens on the football field to the point that it makes me question if you actually watch any of the games. I told you Ben carries the team and wins games for us, it's a fact because THAT'S WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS

I guess perception is reality. We have nothing further to discuss then. It's a fact that Ben carries the Steelers. That's a fact. It's a fact because you say so......

As far as your "expression" on my Rodgers comments, that to is fact. It is a fact that he has lost almost every close game he has been in, it is a fact that he's lost all previous playoff games until last year.

You can set whatever parameters you want. If he needs to win some more close games to prove his good, fair enough. I just think it's ridiculous, and deserves another.....

:doh:

Dude's got about 4 Pro-bowls, a Super Bowl, and a Super Bowl MVP, and you need to see more? Does he need to cure cancer too? lol

Again, that's what actually happens on the field. As for the "long story short", being better then Batch does not make you a hall of famer. I've given you facts and I don't want to justify Ben going into the hall of fame on opinion because that would obviously confuse you, so I will use fact again, 2 SB wins, 3 SB appearances, consistently in the playoffs, and plenty of 4th quarter come backs and game winning drives, one of them in the SB.

So, in other words, he's going to the HOF because he got drafted by the Steelers. Great.

Your clearly not going to change your opinion, and that's absolutely fine, but the claims your making contradict fact and that's why you are running into so much resistance.

Do you think I would run into as much resistance in a Ravens forum?

Obviously not.....

I'm not running into resistance because I "contradict fact", it's because I'm arguing with a bunch of homers who think anybody who doesn't share their opinion is an idiot.

Trying to put Ben at a level lower then the opinion of most Steeler fans is one thing, but when you try to put him lower then the facts show he is,

How good the facts show he is, is solely a matter of opinion.....except your opinion, which is a fact. lol

This is ALL a matter of opinion. Who is the best quarterback is completely opinion.

Ben went to 3 Super Bowls and won 2. This is a fact. It is also a fact that he consistently takes 50 sacks a season. It's also a fact that he isn't as efficient in the red-zone compared to other quarterbacks. It's also a fact he has orchestrated a bunch of 4th quarter comebacks.

These are all facts. When you evaluate these facts to determine where he ranks among his peers - that is an opinion.

You think he's good because he wins close games 17-14, and because he wins Super Bowls, and because he orchestrates comebacks. Those are the facts you use to come to your conclusion.

Other than his clutchness, I'm not impressed with the above facts - not as much as you, anyway. This doesn't mean your view is based on facts and mine isn't. It means we interpreted the facts differently.

I just wish you could respect my view for what it is: a different interpretation of the facts.

But no, it won't happen. Your interpretation is fact. I get it.



BTW, don't bother responding if you're either going to insult me again, or claim your view is superior because it's based on fact. I will not reply, and you will have just wasted your time.

after all he's done (not single handedly I know) to get us 2 SB's, beat the Ravens almost every time, and go to a 3rd SB: that's nonsense, it's disrespect, and it's not based on what ACTUALLY HAPPENS, and it's not going to fly with people who actually watch what happens on the field.

I watch what happens on the field as well.

cloppbeast
09-24-2011, 09:51 AM
Duplicate

cloppbeast
09-24-2011, 10:09 AM
Duplicate

finesward
09-24-2011, 11:17 AM
Great, we all get it now. Your not impressed with the QB of your supposed favorite team...not because he loses games, no it's because he doesn't win them the same way tom brady, rodgers, romo (pffftt....lol) etc... do. You have the right to your opinion, the same right mendy had to express his opinion about osama's death, and we all know how well that worked out for him. You can have an unpopular opinion around here, but don't expect people to buy into it, especially a bunch of steeler fans. :hatsoff:

cloppbeast
09-24-2011, 11:39 AM
You can have an unpopular opinion around here, but don't expect people to buy into it, especially a bunch of steeler fans. :hatsoff:

Are Steelers fans more hard-headed than other teams'?

I don't expect anybody to buy into it, nor do I care. I enjoy discussing this stuff. I don't understand why people get all mad at me on here. I'm not flaming, nor trolling. I just would like to have a discussion. If any other poster on here doesn't wish to have a discussion, then don't. But don't keep talking to me if you're just going to insult me (not you specifically finesward).

That's the culture we live in, sadly. We insult each other for differences in opinion, for better or worse.

finesward
09-24-2011, 12:23 PM
Hard headed? Maybe, but if it's about Ben, being that he is the QB of their team I would say definitely. Talk to a Ravens fan about Ben being overrated and I'm sure you would get many more who would agree. My point being that just because we think our QB is good and your not impressed doesn't make us homers or make you a hater. We differ in opinion although yours will always be the more unpopular one in this forum as long as he keeps winning. :noidea: Now if he starts putting up more stinkers like he did in week 1, well then you might get a few more on your side. Lets hope that doesn't happen. :tt03:

finesward
09-24-2011, 12:25 PM
And one last thing....

Shut the **** up donny your out of your element!

Atlanta Dan
09-24-2011, 12:33 PM
That's a pretty myopic way to look at it, IMO.

Because I disagree with your opinion I am myopic?

Got it:wave:

DanRooney
09-24-2011, 12:50 PM
Rodgers
Brady
Manning (assuming a new neck)
Rivers
Ryan
Romo
Freeman

Possibly even Bradford and Stafford. I'd like to see Bradford with a few more weapons around him, and I'd have to see Stafford stay healthy for a whole season.

Ryan? Absolutely 100 percent wrong. Have you watched the Falcons? Mularkey has installed the same run, run, pass, punt philosophy in the Cowher tenure. Turner carries that offense. Their D is also pretty solid.

cloppbeast
09-24-2011, 01:26 PM
And one last thing....

Shut the **** up donny your out of your element!

"Oh come on Donny! They were threatening castration! Are we going to split hairs here?"

cloppbeast
09-24-2011, 01:35 PM
Because I disagree with your opinion I am myopic?

Got it:wave:

I didn't say you were myopic.

I said:

"That's a pretty myopic way to look at it, IMO."

I did not flat out call you myopic. I said that in my opinion, your reasoning is myopic.

Your view is myopic in my opinion because you discount Ryan and Romo solely because they haven't won as many playoff games. You fail to consider everything else that goes into winning a playoff game which is out of the quarterback's control. Teams win without good quarterback play, and a quarterback can play a great game and still lose. So wins and losses aren't the end all be all you propose. The Steelers don't win solely because of Ben, and the Cowboys don't lose solely because of Romo. So, it's illogical to assume Ben is better than Romo solely because Ben's team has won play off games.

cloppbeast
09-24-2011, 01:41 PM
Ryan? Absolutely 100 percent wrong. Have you watched the Falcons? Mularkey has installed the same run, run, pass, punt philosophy in the Cowher tenure. Turner carries that offense. Their D is also pretty solid.

100% ! That's a lot of percent.

tanda10506
09-24-2011, 01:53 PM
I guess perception is reality. We have nothing further to discuss then. It's a fact that Ben carries the Steelers. That's a fact. It's a fact because you say so......



You can set whatever parameters you want. If he needs to win some more close games to prove his good, fair enough. I just think it's ridiculous, and deserves another.....

:doh:

Dude's got about 4 Pro-bowls, a Super Bowl, and a Super Bowl MVP, and you need to see more? Does he need to cure cancer too? lol



So, in other words, he's going to the HOF because he got drafted by the Steelers. Great.



Do you think I would run into as much resistance in a Ravens forum?

Obviously not.....

I'm not running into resistance because I "contradict fact", it's because I'm arguing with a bunch of homers who think anybody who doesn't share their opinion is an idiot.



How good the facts show he is, is solely a matter of opinion.....except your opinion, which is a fact. lol

This is ALL a matter of opinion. Who is the best quarterback is completely opinion.

Ben went to 3 Super Bowls and won 2. This is a fact. It is also a fact that he consistently takes 50 sacks a season. It's also a fact that he isn't as efficient in the red-zone compared to other quarterbacks. It's also a fact he has orchestrated a bunch of 4th quarter comebacks.

These are all facts. When you evaluate these facts to determine where he ranks among his peers - that is an opinion.

You think he's good because he wins close games 17-14, and because he wins Super Bowls, and because he orchestrates comebacks. Those are the facts you use to come to your conclusion.

Other than his clutchness, I'm not impressed with the above facts - not as much as you, anyway. This doesn't mean your view is based on facts and mine isn't. It means we interpreted the facts differently.

I just wish you could respect my view for what it is: a different interpretation of the facts.

But no, it won't happen. Your interpretation is fact. I get it.



BTW, don't bother responding if you're either going to insult me again, or claim your view is superior because it's based on fact. I will not reply, and you will have just wasted your time.



I watch what happens on the field as well.

You still cant grasp reality, fact from opinion, when I just layed it out so easily for you. I have some comments for what you have said, but I will keep them to myself since you cant even understand the basics of reality, let alone anything about football. To clarify what I am saying, your comprehension of things is so poor, that I cant logically discuss football with you because you dont comprehend the basics of a conversation, like what makes something a fact or an opinion, let alone ANYTHING to do with football. Enjoy your fantasy league.

ricardisimo
09-24-2011, 02:01 PM
I didn't say you were myopic.

I said:

"That's a pretty myopic way to look at it, IMO."

I did not flat out call you myopic. I said that in my opinion, your reasoning is myopic.

Your view is myopic in my opinion because you discount Ryan and Romo solely because they haven't won as many playoff games. You fail to consider everything else that goes into winning a playoff game which is out of the quarterback's control. Teams win without good quarterback play, and a quarterback can play a great game and still lose. So wins and losses aren't the end all be all you propose. The Steelers don't win solely because of Ben, and the Cowboys don't lose solely because of Romo. So, it's illogical to assume Ben is better than Romo solely because Ben's team has won play off games.
But it's safe to assume, at this point in his career, that Romo is a big-game choker. Whether he does or does not "carry" his team to the big games, he certainly is the one who loses them. That's a big difference with Ben. And Rivers is fast approaching that territory as well.

Atlanta Dan
09-24-2011, 02:08 PM
I didn't say you were myopic.

I said:

"That's a pretty myopic way to look at it, IMO."

I did not flat out call you myopic. I said that in my opinion, your reasoning is myopic.

Your view is myopic in my opinion because you discount Ryan and Romo solely because they haven't won as many playoff games. You fail to consider everything else that goes into winning a playoff game which is out of the quarterback's control. Teams win without good quarterback play, and a quarterback can play a great game and still lose. So wins and losses aren't the end all be all you propose. The Steelers don't win solely because of Ben, and the Cowboys don't lose solely because of Romo. So, it's illogical to assume Ben is better than Romo solely because Ben's team has won play off games.

What is your measure - which QB you would date if you were a woman?

Walk me through your metrics for the superiority of Romo or Ryan

Steelersfan87
09-24-2011, 03:18 PM
Wow, this thread moves way too damn fast for me to keep up. :doh:

cloppbeast
09-24-2011, 03:27 PM
But it's safe to assume, at this point in his career, that Romo is a big-game choker. Whether he does or does not "carry" his team to the big games, he certainly is the one who loses them. That's a big difference with Ben. And Rivers is fast approaching that territory as well.

Ben's team has carried him through at least 3 playoff wins, a benefit few quarterbacks have received. If winning Super Bowls was based solely on quarterback play, Ben would certainly have no more than one SB, and maybe not any.

An no, I don't agree Romo is a big-game choker. He's played 4 play-off games and choked in one of them, unless you're going to blame him for his first play-off loss against Seattle when he bobbled the ball as a place holder. (I don't blame him. That was just poor coaching. There's a reason starting quarterbacks don't serve as place-holders. He should have never even been in on that play. He put his team in position to win as quarterback, perhaps choked as the place-holder. Maybe they needed a new place holder....:noidea:)

cloppbeast
09-24-2011, 03:28 PM
What is your measure - which QB you would date if you were a woman?

Walk me through your metrics for the superiority of Romo or Ryan

If I were a woman, I would probably go out with Romo over Ryan. Romo has a rugged Favre-esk 5-day beard, but a boyish charm. Ryan looks like a giraffe.

What about you?

ricardisimo
09-24-2011, 03:41 PM
Ben's team has carried him through at least 3 playoff wins, a benefit few quarterbacks have received. If winning Super Bowls was based solely on quarterback play, Ben would certainly have no more than one SB, and maybe not any.

An no, I don't agree Romo is a big-game choker. He's played 4 play-off games and choked in one of them, unless you're going to blame him for his first play-off loss against Seattle when he bobbled the ball as a place holder. (I don't blame him. That was just poor coaching. There's a reason starting quarterbacks don't serve as place-holders. He should have never even been in on that play. He put his team in position to win as quarterback, perhaps choked as the place-holder. Maybe they needed a new place holder....:noidea:)
He blew the Giants game in 2007, and he blew the Vikings game a few years ago. He's also lost several late-season win-and-you're-in games, as I recall. I despise the Cowboys though, and so I honestly haven't paid that much attention to them. I'm giddy as a schoolgirl whenever Jerry Jones spends tons of money on a player only to have them not pan out.

cloppbeast
09-24-2011, 03:51 PM
He blew the Giants game in 2007, and he blew the Vikings game a few years ago.

He did blow the Giants game. The Vikings game was a team effort. It was pretty much a blow-out from the beginning - not really a choke.

He's also lost several late-season win-and-you're-in games, as I recall.

He's won a few of them as well.

Fire Arians
09-24-2011, 05:02 PM
dallas sucks

harrison'samonster
09-24-2011, 06:26 PM
And one last thing....

Shut the **** up donny your out of your element!

Over the Line!

ricardisimo
09-24-2011, 06:34 PM
Over the Line!
It's a movie quote, dude (and I do mean dude).

harrison'samonster
09-24-2011, 06:37 PM
no, that's what John Goodman yells when a guy from the other team goes over the line. then he pulls out a gun and tells him he's entering a world of pain.

A world of pain.

Fire Arians
09-24-2011, 06:39 PM
nobody ****s with the jesus

harrison'samonster
09-24-2011, 06:42 PM
eight year olds, dude

ricardisimo
09-24-2011, 07:00 PM
The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh. I sure hope he makes the finals.

cloppbeast
09-25-2011, 09:00 AM
Is this your homework Larry?

davidtrout
09-25-2011, 11:47 AM
Anybody need a toe? I can get you a toe.

SteelCityMom
09-25-2011, 06:18 PM
This thread has definitely run it's course...I'm glad to see it ended the way the Dude would have wanted it to though. :chuckle: