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View Full Version : offender fined for low hit on big bens knee


tony hipchest
09-22-2011, 12:26 AM
http://www.steelersdepot.com/2011/09/raheem-brock-fined-for-hit-on-roethlisberger/

rodger goodell apologized in advance and offered to blow raheem brock for free at the next players/owners meetings, with the caveat that he doesnt spit.

Danny136200
09-22-2011, 01:49 AM
http://www.steelersdepot.com/2011/09/raheem-brock-fined-for-hit-on-roethlisberger/

rodger goodell apologized in advance and offered to blow raheem brock for free at the next players/owners meetings, with the caveat that he doesnt spit.
I do not think that Brock should have been fined, it did seem like he was tripped and fell into Ben.

Steel_Bus_24
09-22-2011, 02:23 AM
I would say the player who dove at Bens knees in the early part of the 2nd Half was more fine worthy, but really Goodell can take all his new fines/Rules and shove it

ricardisimo
09-22-2011, 02:44 AM
I would say the player who dove at Bens knees in the early part of the 2nd Half was more fine worthy, but really Goodell can take all his new fines/Rules and shove it
No, Arians and Tomlin should be fined for that one. The game was out of hand already, and all they had to do was hand the ball off and/or max protect. Instead they passed more in the 2nd half than in the first, went empty backfield numerous times, dangling their $100M QB to the Fates, and still only scored 7 points in the half.

Rather than "remove the stench" from the Ravens game, they exposed way too much of their gameplan, and Arians showed just how incompetent he really is. He so wants to be Belichick. It's just sad.

DanRooney
09-22-2011, 03:41 AM
Brock could have avoided the collision with the knees. He takes an extra lunge at the end after being tripped.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2011/09/proof-raheem-brock-deserved-to-be-fined-for-hit-on-ben-roethlisberger/

It's really a 50/50 call. I know it was probably just habit for him to keep driving towards to QB. But by the looks of the last link, it could have been avoided.

solardave
09-22-2011, 04:53 AM
I do not think that Brock should have been fined, it did seem like he was tripped and fell into Ben.

Are you out of your mind? Go back and watch it again. He wrapped his arm around Ben's right leg and took him down. THAT'S intent!!!!:banging:

BIGNASTY91
09-22-2011, 05:44 AM
Are you out of your mind? Go back and watch it again. He wrapped his arm around Ben's right leg and took him down. THAT'S intent!!!!:banging:

I agree!! Thats what i was screaming and had me so pissed when i was watching it and the announcers were trying to play it off as a trip. Sure he was tripped but what happened after that was what brought the fine! Classless! :tt03:

tony hipchest
09-22-2011, 10:03 AM
just to square things up and make goodell feel better he decided to also fine an opponent of tom brady-

AdamSchefter Adam Schefter
NFL handed out matching $15,000 fines -- one to Raheem Brock for hit on Ben Roethlisberger, other to Antonio Garay for hit on Tom Brady.


what a pudwhacker.

truesteelerfan
09-22-2011, 10:57 AM
Yes, I know it's Ben...and support anything to keep him healthy...BUT I still think its a stupid fine- QB's are football players too, and sometimes they're going to get hit...Its a football game, not some flag pulling contest. Too much is done to protect one player's position...why even have them own team colored jerseys instead of just red ones....Ask Harrison's feelings on it after his fines from last year that were unnecessary because he touched a QB

Wallace108
09-22-2011, 11:11 AM
Brock could have avoided the collision with the knees. He takes an extra lunge at the end after being tripped.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2011/09/proof-raheem-brock-deserved-to-be-fined-for-hit-on-ben-roethlisberger/

It's really a 50/50 call. I know it was probably just habit for him to keep driving towards to QB. But by the looks of the last link, it could have been avoided.
I get what steelersdepot is trying to say, but Brock didn't purposely target Ben's knee. That's just where he ended up after getting tripped and still trying to make a play. It's no different than what happened with Troy in your very own sig. Troy didn't target the running back's ankles, but after getting hit and still trying to make a play, that's where he ended up.

In Brock's case, the hit deserved a flag. Hitting a QB in the knees is a penalty, regardless of why you do it. But it didn't deserve a fine.

Are you out of your mind? Go back and watch it again. He wrapped his arm around Ben's right leg and took him down. THAT'S intent!!!!:banging:

If the roles were reversed and it had been James Harrison who made the same play after getting tripped, and then got fined for it, I'm willing to bet the arguments here would be much different. :chuckle:

Danny136200
09-22-2011, 11:58 AM
Are you out of your mind? Go back and watch it again. He wrapped his arm around Ben's right leg and took him down. THAT'S intent!!!!:banging:

no, I am not, but thanks for your concern. When Gilbert was beat, he extended his leg, and tripped up Brock, which he fell onto Ben's knee. Since he technically did hit the QB below the knee, then yes it should be a penalty, but it should not be a fine.

If this happen to James Harrison, you guys would be in an uproar.

cloppbeast
09-22-2011, 12:05 PM
If this happen to James Harrison, you guys would be in an uproar.

You wouldn't suggest that posters on this forum aren't objective would you? Please say it isn't so!

The next thing you know, you'll be running around here saying Ben isn't the best quarterback of all time. How ridiculous! lol

Steelersfan87
09-22-2011, 12:12 PM
It's interesting that Brock's forward motion after his knee hits the ground accelerates more rapidly toward Ben's legs. His arms also aim to wrap rather than to brace his body for the fall. This is enough evidence to suggest intent, regardless of whether or not he was tripped (which he was). The contact could have been avoided, and the hit merits the discipline he received, as would have Harrison or Woodley or any other Steeler that did the same thing.

cloppbeast
09-22-2011, 12:23 PM
It's interesting that Brock's forward motion after his knee hits the ground accelerates more rapidly toward Ben's legs. His arms also aim to wrap rather than to brace his body for the fall.

Of course he intended to tackle Ben; tackling a QB though, isn't illegal. Did he intend to tackle Ben at his knees? No, he was tripped.

This is enough evidence to suggest intent, regardless of whether or not he was tripped (which he was).

His intent was to tackle, period. He was tripped into Ben's knees. But, he didn't intend to tackle Ben at his knees.

The contact could have been avoided, and the hit merits the discipline he received, as would have Harrison or Woodley or any other Steeler that did the same thing.

And I'm sure the mood would differ around here in such case.

Fire Arians
09-22-2011, 12:24 PM
no, I am not, but thanks for your concern. When Gilbert was beat, he extended his leg, and tripped up Brock, which he fell onto Ben's knee. Since he technically did hit the QB below the knee, then yes it should be a penalty, but it should not be a fine.

If this happen to James Harrison, you guys would be in an uproar.

james harrison wouldn't do something this dirty, he would just rip someones head off.

brock actually lunged into ben if you look at this gif, didn't wrap in order to drive his shoulder into the knee as much as possible. this was an attempt to injure. dirty ass play. cant blame him too much though, the only chance seattle would have at beating us is to knock our quarterback out of the game. though doubtful that would even work for them, they have to score points first.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/ben_brock_animated.gif

Wallace108
09-22-2011, 12:50 PM
It's interesting that Brock's forward motion after his knee hits the ground accelerates more rapidly toward Ben's legs. His arms also aim to wrap rather than to brace his body for the fall. This is enough evidence to suggest intent, regardless of whether or not he was tripped (which he was). The contact could have been avoided, and the hit merits the discipline he received, as would have Harrison or Woodley or any other Steeler that did the same thing.

brock actually lunged into ben if you look at this gif, didn't wrap in order to drive his shoulder into the knee as much as possible. this was an attempt to injure. dirty ass play.

So if a player is running as hard as he can trying to make a tackle, and he gets tripped and is falling, he's supposed to just fall down and not try to make a play?

this was an attempt to injure.
Come on, FA, do you honestly believe that? Had he not been tripped, do you think he still would have went for Ben's knees because he had a free shot at him? I seriously doubt it. And in the split second it took from the time he got tripped to the time he hit Ben, I don't think he thought to himself, "Hell, since I got tripped and I'm going to the ground, I might as well try to injure Roethlisberger and take him out of the game."

Fire Arians
09-22-2011, 12:52 PM
looked like a dirty play to me, he could have made a better attempt to wrap the legs rather than lunge into ben low going shoulder first

cloppbeast
09-22-2011, 12:53 PM
this was an attempt to injure.

Did you have an issue with Harrison admitting he tries to hurt his opponents, after the Browns game last year?

Fire Arians
09-22-2011, 01:59 PM
Did you have an issue with Harrison admitting he tries to hurt his opponents, after the Browns game last year?

attempting to hurt and injure is two things.

hurt = you might get your bell run but you can shake it off and get back in the game
injure = can't play for weeks, months, or season's over

when's the last time you seen james dive at someone's knees? he mans up and takes his target head-on. that's not cheap if someone gets injured by that, it just means they aren't tough enough to handle james

i never complain about head-on collisions, but diving at the knees doesn't sit well with me

Steelersfan87
09-22-2011, 02:14 PM
The point isn't that he tried to tackle him. The point is that he continued to make an effort to contact him after he was tripped, and after the ball was released, and he hit Roethlisberger at the knee. Because he continued to attempt to make contact, you cannot use the argument that he was tripped to justify the incident. Was he aiming for the knee, or did he intend to cause an actual injury? I don't know that and won't try to speculate, and I'm not going to assume that what happened was his goal. But that is not even relevant. What is relevant is that he purposefully, and not accidentally, hit Ben, and where he hit him was in an area that results in a penalty and a fine. Period.

Steelersfan87
09-22-2011, 02:21 PM
By the way, Doug Legursky was fined $10,000 for his clipping penalty, which I'm fine with.

Wallace108
09-23-2011, 02:56 AM
The point isn't that he tried to tackle him. The point is that he continued to make an effort to contact him after he was tripped, and after the ball was released, and he hit Roethlisberger at the knee.
Of course he made an effort to tackle Ben after he was tripped. You can't expect a player to just fall to the ground and stay there until the play is over. And the reason he hit Ben in the knee is because he was tripped and was falling. Had he not been tripped, it would have been a perfectly legal tackle (I'm assuming).

Because he continued to attempt to make contact, you cannot use the argument that he was tripped to justify the incident.
Again, what was he supposed to do ... fall to the ground and lie there until the ref blows the whistle? :noidea:
Had he not been tripped and just dove at Ben's knees, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. But that isn't what happened. Gilbert got burned on the play and stuck out his leg to trip him. Had he not been tripped, it would have been a clean hit. So at the very least, Gilbert is just as responsible as Brock. Unless, of course, you expect him to just fall to the ground and remain there until the play is over.

Was he aiming for the knee, or did he intend to cause an actual injury? I don't know that and won't try to speculate, and I'm not going to assume that what happened was his goal.
I'll speculate ... had Gilbert not tripped him, it would have been a clean hit. To assume that he purposely aimed at Ben's knee, you'd have to conclude that he consciously made that decision in a split second after being tripped.

What is relevant is that he purposefully, and not accidentally, hit Ben, and where he hit him was in an area that results in a penalty and a fine. Period.
I agree that he purposely hit Ben. That's what he's supposed to do. The argument is whether or not he purposely targeted Ben's knee. And I say no. But whether it was intentional or not, if you hit a QB in the knees, it's going to draw a flag. And rightfully so. But if it isn't intentional, is it worthy of a fine? According to you and Goodell, I guess it is.

By the way, Doug Legursky was fined $10,000 for his clipping penalty, which I'm fine with.
Just out of curiosity ... were you fine with all of Harrison's fines last season?

solardave
09-23-2011, 04:14 AM
no, I am not, but thanks for your concern. When Gilbert was beat, he extended his leg, and tripped up Brock, which he fell onto Ben's knee. Since he technically did hit the QB below the knee, then yes it should be a penalty, but it should not be a fine.

If this happen to James Harrison, you guys would be in an uproar.

There's a difference in being blocked into the QB and falling,then lunging into him. Plus if you watch it again he wraps his arm around Ben's leg and twists him to the ground.
Shouldn't be a fine? BS. If Harrison did it I'd say it was a dumb move.(James, pay the fine) I said his hit on Massaqua (or however it is spelled) was deserving of a fine.

Ask yourself this. If that were Brady would Brock be fined? I say fined and possibly suspended.

ricardisimo
09-23-2011, 04:20 AM
Dude could have grabbed Ben, but launched himself instead. Fine-worthy. And yes, if Harrison launched himself at a guy's knees like this, fine him too.

solardave
09-23-2011, 04:24 AM
Of course he made an effort to tackle Ben after he was tripped. You can't expect a player to just fall to the ground and stay there until the play is over. And the reason he hit Ben in the knee is because he was tripped and was falling. Had he not been tripped, it would have been a perfectly legal tackle (I'm assuming).


Again, what was he supposed to do ... fall to the ground and lie there until the ref blows the whistle? :noidea:
Had he not been tripped and just dove at Ben's knees, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. But that isn't what happened. Gilbert got burned on the play and stuck out his leg to trip him. Had he not been tripped, it would have been a clean hit. So at the very least, Gilbert is just as responsible as Brock. Unless, of course, you expect him to just fall to the ground and remain there until the play is over.


I'll speculate ... had Gilbert not tripped him, it would have been a clean hit. To assume that he purposely aimed at Ben's knee, you'd have to conclude that he consciously made that decision in a split second after being tripped.


I agree that he purposely hit Ben. That's what he's supposed to do. The argument is whether or not he purposely targeted Ben's knee. And I say no. But whether it was intentional or not, if you hit a QB in the knees, it's going to draw a flag. And rightfully so. But if it isn't intentional, is it worthy of a fine? According to you and Goodell, I guess it is.


Just out of curiosity ... were you fine with all of Harrison's fines last season?

Regardless of what Gilbert did. Throw a flag his way too. Fine him too. Brock's job is to get the QB on the ground. I agree if he isn't tripped it is probably a clean hit. Here's where I have a problem. If he had enough time to lunge at Ben' knee he had enough time to get up high and make a legal tackle. A lot of non Steeler fans say Harrison is dirty. How often do you see him taken to the ground by no less than a horse collar tackle (that isn't called)? Do you see him lunge at the QB's knees? Oh yeah because no flag was thrown it would be a fine. Of coarse it's James Harrison.

OX1947
09-23-2011, 04:30 AM
UGH, I wish Paul Tagliabue was still commissioner.

Danny136200
09-23-2011, 10:25 AM
There's a difference in being blocked into the QB and falling,then lunging into him. Plus if you watch it again he wraps his arm around Ben's leg and twists him to the ground.
Shouldn't be a fine? BS. If Harrison did it I'd say it was a dumb move.(James, pay the fine) I said his hit on Massaqua (or however it is spelled) was deserving of a fine.

Ask yourself this. If that were Brady would Brock be fined? I say fined and possibly suspended.
No, it shouldn't be a fine, because it was not intentional that he hit his knee. a player is not going to stop trying on a play because he was tripped, which Gilbert did. Brock also did not twist ben's leg when he crashed into him, he merely just laed there, watch it again. When someone is tripped, you will fall forward.

And if that were Brady, I would make the same argument (which someone was fined for hitting queen Brady the same way this week).

cloppbeast
09-23-2011, 10:30 AM
attempting to hurt and injure is two things.

hurt = you might get your bell run but you can shake it off and get back in the game
injure = can't play for weeks, months, or season's over

fair enough

when's the last time you seen james dive at someone's knees?

He tackled one of the Titans TEs low the first game of the 2010 season. I remember the Titans fans making a big stink about it.

he mans up and takes his target head-on. that's not cheap if someone gets injured by that, it just means they aren't tough enough to handle james

I don't recall him ever getting tripped into a QBs legs either.

Fire Arians
09-23-2011, 12:36 PM
fair enough



He tackled one of the Titans TEs low the first game of the 2010 season. I remember the Titans fans making a big stink about it.



I don't recall him ever getting tripped into a QBs legs either.

I don't remember the hit on the TE, but I'm sure it wasn't when the TE's back was facing him or hitting him on the side of the knee. If the defender is coming head on and low, he should see it coming and get ready for it. I'm sure most TE's are bigger than harrison, and in my years of playing football, I'll tell you it's never wise to try to take a bigger man head-on, you'll get manhandled if you don't get lower than him.

i guess we agree to disagree then, no amount of swaying is going to change my opinion. If I seen harrison do the same thing to a QB, I would say the same thing, that it's dirty and he should get fined also.

Steelersfan87
09-23-2011, 12:48 PM
Of course he made an effort to tackle Ben after he was tripped. You can't expect a player to just fall to the ground and stay there until the play is over. And the reason he hit Ben in the knee is because he was tripped and was falling. Had he not been tripped, it would have been a perfectly legal tackle (I'm assuming).

If a player is going to hit a quarterback in the knees, then you DO expect him to "just fall to the ground and stay there" instead of making an illegal hit. It doesn't matter that he was 'tripped' because he was still under control enough to avoid the collision with the knee after the 'trip'. He is still responsible for where he hits the quarterback. Besides, that 'trip' is unconvincing, anyway. Gilbert whiffs trying to block right when Brock spins the opposite way, so his upper body moves left, but he maintains position with his lower half. It's not like he stuck his leg up 2 feet off the ground.

Again, what was he supposed to do ... fall to the ground and lie there until the ref blows the whistle? :noidea:

He's supposed to not hit a quarterback in the knee, regardless of what action he has to take to make that happen.

Had he not been tripped and just dove at Ben's knees, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. But that isn't what happened. Gilbert got burned on the play and stuck out his leg to trip him. Had he not been tripped, it would have been a clean hit. So at the very least, Gilbert is just as responsible as Brock. Unless, of course, you expect him to just fall to the ground and remain there until the play is over.

Obviously when the league looked at the play, they decided that what happened with Gilbert did not constitute as a trip by the league rule. If it was a trip, he would have been fined too. He was trying to maintain his original position, and he was entitled to do that.

I'll speculate ... had Gilbert not tripped him, it would have been a clean hit. To assume that he purposely aimed at Ben's knee, you'd have to conclude that he consciously made that decision in a split second after being tripped.

Had he not tripped over Gilbert's leg, is it likely that he doesn't hit the knee? Possibly, but that is irrelevant, because he did trip over Gilbert's leg. It doesn't matter whether a defender consciously decides to hit a player illegally. I'm willing to bet that 99% of all illegal hits are not intentional.

I agree that he purposely hit Ben. That's what he's supposed to do. The argument is whether or not he purposely targeted Ben's knee. And I say no. But whether it was intentional or not, if you hit a QB in the knees, it's going to draw a flag. And rightfully so. But if it isn't intentional, is it worthy of a fine? According to you and Goodell, I guess it is.

That's not what he's supposed to do when his only chance of actually making contact is an illegal hit. Obviously he hurt his own team by doing what you feel he was supposed to do, so it doesn't sound like it was that great of an idea after all. I'm not arguing whether or not a fine is 'worthy'. I'm saying that by the precedent set over the last few years, that hit was going to merit a fine.

Just out of curiosity ... were you fine with all of Harrison's fines last season?

I don't recall all of them, but I believe my opinion varied based on the hit.

No, it shouldn't be a fine, because it was not intentional that he hit his knee. a player is not going to stop trying on a play because he was tripped, which Gilbert did. Brock also did not twist ben's leg when he crashed into him, he merely just laed there, watch it again. When someone is tripped, you will fall forward.

The intent doesn't matter. He was under control enough that he was able to lunge forward off of his knee, rendering the fact that he tripped over somebody's leg irrelevant.

stb_steeler
09-23-2011, 02:26 PM
Look familiar?......................
http://i456.photobucket.com/albums/qq286/psychostats/Bengals/palmer060110.jpg

solardave
09-23-2011, 03:29 PM
UGH, I wish Paul Tagliabue was still commissioner.

AMEN!!!

solardave
09-23-2011, 03:38 PM
attempting to hurt and injure is two things.

hurt = you might get your bell run but you can shake it off and get back in the game
injure = can't play for weeks, months, or season's over

when's the last time you seen james dive at someone's knees? he mans up and takes his target head-on. that's not cheap if someone gets injured by that, it just means they aren't tough enough to handle james

i never complain about head-on collisions, but diving at the knees doesn't sit well with me

I agree and let's take it one step further. Pay attention to James after a sack or tackle. Most of the time he'll extend a hand to help the opponent up or pat him on the back. He makes no bones about his territory and dishing out punishment but I also believe he has a lot of respect for his peers. Go back and watch Von Olhafen's reaction after he hit Palmer. He was visibly upset and immediately called for help. Looked to me like Brock didn't give a sh..t about whether or not he caused injury.

Steelersfan87
09-23-2011, 04:43 PM
Look familiar?......................
http://i456.photobucket.com/albums/qq286/psychostats/Bengals/palmer060110.jpg

This was BBK (Before Brady's Knee), so you can't compare.

Wallace108
09-23-2011, 10:02 PM
If a player is going to hit a quarterback in the knees, then you DO expect him to "just fall to the ground and stay there" instead of making an illegal hit.
I've watched a lot of football, but I don't recall ever seeing a player fall to the ground and just stay there out of fear of making an illegal hit.

IIt doesn't matter that he was 'tripped' because he was still under control enough to avoid the collision with the knee after the 'trip'.
Have you ever tripped (or been tripped) and fell to the ground? It happens fast, and you don't have time to think. I'm sure you've watched that play in slow motion, as I have, and it gives you a different perspective. We can analyze it frame by frame and try to determine whether he could have avoided the collision. But as the play happened, in real time, at full speed, I'm sure avoiding the collision never entered his mind.

He is still responsible for where he hits the quarterback.
I agree, to a point, and that's why I feel the flag was justified. But I don't think the fine was justified. I think fines should be reserved for things done with malicious intent. I don't think there was any malicious intent on the play.

Besides, that 'trip' is unconvincing, anyway. Gilbert whiffs trying to block right when Brock spins the opposite way, so his upper body moves left, but he maintains position with his lower half. It's not like he stuck his leg up 2 feet off the ground.
All of your other arguments are good arguments and worthy of debate. But I don't think there's any debate on whether or not Gilbert tripped him and caused him to fall.

He's supposed to not hit a quarterback in the knee, regardless of what action he has to take to make that happen.
I agree with you in theory, but I don't think it works in reality. In the time between being tripped and hitting Ben, Brock didn't have much opportunity for rational thought.

Obviously when the league looked at the play, they decided that what happened with Gilbert did not constitute as a trip by the league rule. If it was a trip, he would have been fined too. He was trying to maintain his original position, and he was entitled to do that.
I'm not so sure they fined him because they believe he wasn't tripped. If anything, I think the league would agree with your other argument ... that even if he was tripped, he still has to maintain control.

IHad he not tripped over Gilbert's leg, is it likely that he doesn't hit the knee? Possibly, but that is irrelevant, because he did trip over Gilbert's leg.
Wait, was he tripped or was he not tripped?

It doesn't matter whether a defender consciously decides to hit a player illegally. I'm willing to bet that 99% of all illegal hits are not intentional.
I completely agree with you here. And whether it's intentional or not, an illegal hit still deserves a penalty. But I don't think they should be fined on top of it if it wasn't intentional.

I'm not arguing whether or not a fine is 'worthy'. I'm saying that by the precedent set over the last few years, that hit was going to merit a fine.
You could be right. My take though is that had he not been tripped and just dove at Ben's knees, it would deserve a fine. But since he was tripped, it removes some of the responsibility from him. The question is whether or not he could have avoided the contact after being tripped. And that's what's debatable. Apparently, the league agrees with you, and not me. But the league isn't always right. :wink02:

Steel4ever95
09-24-2011, 01:59 PM
I was just surprised the refs threw a flag, Ben never seems to get those calls for him.

TRH
09-25-2011, 01:21 PM
Hell, you can't :
1. hit a QB low
2. you can't hit them high either
3. you can't hit them too hard or thats an automatic penalty and/or fine
4. and if you're name's Brady, don't even THINK about touching him or its a likely flag
5. Can't hook them. Trip them. Or facemask them.

Can someone tell me what you can do nowadays? We're very close to a reality of a modern day QB wearing a flag and thats the only way he can be touched, while the rest of the game remains a "tackle" game of sorts. Don't laugh. When it happens, everyone will be saying "its been headed that way for quite a few years now........."