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mesaSteeler
12-12-2011, 06:03 AM
Will James Harrison be suspended? Is the NFL out to get the Steelers?
Monday, 12 December 2011 00:30
Written by Bob Smizik
http://communityvoices.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/sports/bob-smiziks-blog/31120-will-james-harrision-be-suspended-is-the-nfl-out-to-get-the-steelers

Two related issues today:

* Will James Harrison be suspended by the NFL?

* Is the league out to get the Steelers?

Harrison does not deserve a suspension for the helmet-to-helmet hit on Cleveland quarterback Colt McCoy Thursday. If the league feels a fine is in order, and it probably will, it should be a whopper, considering Harrisonís past history.

As for a suspension, there has been such a lack of transparency by the NFL on disciplinary issues that itís hard to figure what it will do. But the circumstances of the play must be taken into consideration.

It looked like McCoy was going to run with the ball and Harrison thought he was fair game. Thatís not an excuse but it can be considered mitigating circumstances. Harrison chose to launch himself and the consequences of that were a helmet-to-helmet hit. He will probably pay the price for his recklessness.

But heís been on good behavior for more than a year. A suspension is not warranted, particularly because of the confusion on the play.

If, however, Harrison is suspended that does not mean the league is out to get the Steelers. That's a charge regularly thrown around Pittsburgh and on this blog. Itís a serious charge with little or no foundation.

Answer this question: What possible motivation would the NFL have to be out to get the Steelers?

The Steelers are a premier franchise. They draw viewers, they draw fans to visiting stadiums. People regularly accuse MLB of catering to the Yankees and Red Sox. The Steelers are the NFL equivalent of the Yankees and Red Sox.

Thereís no reason for the NFL to be out to get the Steelers or any team. No sports league more values its integrity than the NFL. The best way to destroy that integrity is to be deliberately unfair to any team or teams.

Lastly, the notion that Roger Goodell is behind this attempt to get the Steelers is beyond preposterous. Goodell, if anything, is indebted to the Rooney family, which backed him when he was seeking the commissionerís job.

No owner -- and the owners are Goodell's boss -- would stand for unfair treatment of another team. If they did, they might be next.

Finally . . . the belief the refs are under orders from Goodell to hurt the Steelers chances of victory is equally without merit.

The Steelers are 16th in the league in penalties and 12th in penalty yards. Those numbers should end any discussion of officiating discrimination.

If the league is out to get the Steelers, what is it doing to the 15 teams that have drawn more penalties?

Sure there are calls that go against the Steelers. There are calls that go against all teams. Good, bad or indifferent, the officials are human. They make mistakes -- just like the players.

Give it up, Pittsburgh. The Steelers are a cherished NFL franchise. It would be stupid to deliberately plot against them.

(What Smizik doesn't realize is that Godell is stupid! (and arragoent and ignorant, etx. Note the misspelling of Goodell was deliberate. Then again Smizk isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer either. After all he thinks Airhead is a good OC. - mesa)

Steelerindc
12-12-2011, 06:52 AM
Word on the street is that James Harrison will be suspended for a game or two. So we know he will be suspended now it's all about how long now.

Is the NFL out to get the Steelers, I don't like to feed into conspiracy theories but I can only compare it to the NBA and Dennis Rodman. It seemed like the refs in the NBA was always looking for something to suspend him for. Anything he would do warranted him a fine or suspension and it was b/c throughout his career he built a reputation for certain behavior.

The Steelers aren't Dennis Rodman but they have a reputation of hard hitting. The NFL are fining players for hard hitting, not illegal hits for the most part.

If you hit someone hard it can be clean but if it looks bad the refs are going to flag you. That's just the way it is now.

steelfury02
12-12-2011, 08:02 AM
and the flip side to that is Jordan who never, never, never got called for traveling because the way he played the game pushed the limits and was spectacular. I remember plenty of discussion from 1991 to 1998 that the refs tended to favor Jordan and he was almost 99/100 times also able to draw a foul driving to the basket, no matter how little contact was made on him

I def think teams and players earn reputations and are part of what shapes the trends of any league. We all know some how some way the Steelers are always involved in big games, make spectacular plays or are victims of flukey plays, put hard hits on opponents and get hit apretty darn hard too. That's what happens when you are a storied franchise that wins and wins and wins with plenty of hall of fame caliber to pro bowl caliber players that fill your roster - you are going to constantly be part of what is trending.

Right now, for me, Mike Wallace put it best - because of our successes and because of our defense's hard hitting reputation in a changing league - The Steelers are "Public Enemy #1" and I do believe because of who we are, certain situations are going to be amplified - whether good or bad.

I.E. - nobody is going to make a huge fuss if a Browns OLB gets fined or suspended but, when James Harrison of THE Pittsburgh Steelers get suspended - its huge news Smizik has it right - we are, along with Green Bay, the equivalent of Yankees/Red Sox. We're one of the premier teams so everything that happens, good or bad, is heavily focused on by the rest of the teams and their fans.

Stu Pidasso
12-12-2011, 08:02 AM
So, Mr. Smizik, think about this about the flags situtaion:

Say a team gets 10 false start penalties. Not really game changing.
Then the Steelers get ONE pass interference call in the end zone late in the game that gives someone a chance to score and win.

Your logic fails.

4xSBChamps
12-12-2011, 09:10 AM
If you hit someone hard it can be clean but if it looks bad the refs are going to flag you. That's just the way it is now.

if the League can muddy the water enough, and blur the definite lines of reality, they can do & get-away with whatever-the-F they want, and make a story where none exists:
if the sheeple continue buying the product, don't expect Ms. Goodell to change her modus-operandi

and the flip side to that is Jordan who never, never, never got called for traveling because the way he played the game pushed the limits and was spectacular...

the NBA bastardized the game & prostituted themselves out to TV when they allowed the rules of the game to be ignored so that Jordan could fly through the air, tongue-out, and dunk the ball, running-over opponents while doing-so:
Jordan would have difficulty scoring 25 points in a game, if it were officiated by WPIAL referees who followed the letter-of-the-law, as-written basketball rule-book, calling such things as traveling, palming, pivot-foot violations, etc.

the NFL is doing the same by becoming a pass-and-tab League, just so that retired QBs & WRs can sit-around a desk on various TV networks, and talk gushingly about the current crop of QBs & WRs:
don't buy the hype!

Whodis
12-12-2011, 09:58 AM
Anyone that watched the game would know that McCoy was scrambling (he had run for a first down a few plays before). Whats the difference between that or hits Vick takes out of the pocket? He will get suspended and there is nothing anyone can do about it. The owners and coaches have stayed silent so why should we care?

ESPN is on a major witch hunt. Try to watch or listen to any show and tell me anyone is taking a neutral stance?

Steel_Bus_24
12-12-2011, 10:38 AM
Bullshit they are to out to get the Steelers........specifically they're out to stop us from hitting hard

Its BS pure an simple, the fffing refs throw the damm flag on anything that looks too violent to them

They don't want tough hard hitting defenses ruining their Fantansy Football/Nerd demographic who like watching numbers go up and down more then the actual game

steelfury02
12-12-2011, 10:43 AM
best medicine for a lot of things would be for us to win the Lombardi with this group and watch them get up on the podium and state in spite of the league's best efforts - you'll never get rid of defense in Pittsburgh

wera176
12-12-2011, 11:28 AM
Regardless of what happens, I'm still PO'd at Harrison: he KNOWS better, he knew it was the QB, he did NOT have to hit him that high he had him dead to rights and could have wrapped him or heck drive his shoulder through him. It's like you tell your kids NOT to do something and then they do it right in front of you. It no longer matters if it really was a bad thing or not...

The hit deserved the flag (dem da rulez) and I won't be upset at a fine. A suspension is too much imo. First offense this season and was between the whistles. But James, PLEASE use your head to think with brother!

And yes, the NFL is ruining the game...

rich4eagle
12-12-2011, 11:38 AM
I do not think he should be suspended but he will. I do think the NFL makes the Steelers the road kill on their quest for a league where players should wear skirts which is what they want

He should be fined and fined minimally.

My reasoning is Harrsion plays 100% at all times and he was coming to stop McCoy full speed and McCoy was setting up to pass, which he did, so the right way to defend in this bang bang play was to come it high.
McCoy jumped show how could Harrsion position a high tackle or pass knockdown precisely.. If a player hits a stationary target helmet to helmet, it is completely avoidable, but a runner coming right at you who may throw or run is just not easy to judge what parts of both bodies will contact.

I have never seen a ball carrier fined for lowering his helmet into a defensive player while running the ball. In this case McCoy was a runner, and the penalty should be adjusted as such.

Whodis
12-12-2011, 12:04 PM
on the other thread is the Lewis hit on Hines...

Clark got a bigger fine

4xSBChamps
12-12-2011, 12:05 PM
I have never seen a ball carrier fined for lowering his helmet into a defensive player while running the ball.

If-so, Larry Csonka would be having his pension checks sent to Ms. Goodell's office indefinitely

soulkitchen
12-12-2011, 12:08 PM
Thereís no reason for the NFL to be out to get the Steelers or any team. No sports league more values its integrity than the NFL. The best way to destroy that integrity is to be deliberately unfair to any team or teams.




I'm not too sure about this comment. Realize that this is the same NFL (commish) that destroyed the spygate tapes, told vick to not sign with buffalo or cincinnati, and disciplines players (for both on the field and off the field issues) based on media outcry as opposed to any set standard or past practice.

I think Harrison may get the coals poured to him on this one.

4xSBChamps
12-12-2011, 12:28 PM
I'm not too sure about this comment. Realize that this is the same NFL (commish) that destroyed the spygate tapes, told vick to not sign with buffalo or cincinnati, and disciplines players (for both on the field and off the field issues) based on media outcry as opposed to any set standard or past practice.

I think Harrison may get the coals poured to him on this one.

as-far-as 'the League, valuing it's integrity', this is the same league that allowed Jones in Dallas to sell several hundreds (THOUSANDS?) of tickets to the Super Bowl, for seats that never existed

Fire Arians
12-12-2011, 12:49 PM
goodell isn't out to get us, he's just trying to transform our team into a pansy squad like the patriots

also people bring up good points about offensive players not getting fined for helmet hits. they don't, you know, unless their name is hines ward

RichardCullinanForever
12-12-2011, 01:02 PM
And the other thing that is scary, all of the NFL fans and sportswriters are on the same page with Goodell, it's almost like he has brainwashed everyone into thinking that this is how football should be played. I don't understand all of this, fines AND then suspensions. I understand that they are trying to protect players, fine. But when the game is happening at a very rapid speed, shit happens, isn't the 15 yard penalty and an automatic first down enough of a penalty? I mean, what defensive players WANTS to give up 15 yards. I mean, a lot of the time, giving a team 'free' yardage results in points on the board. I think that is enough incentive in itself to help prevent hits, of course they will never be entirely extinguished, but a reduction is progress. But of course the NFL wants to see them stop immediately, and they just don't see how it's possible that they continue to happen.

steelfury02
12-12-2011, 01:42 PM
if the players were smart they would have pushed to get Goodell fired before agreeing to anything before end to lockout

4xSBChamps
12-12-2011, 01:44 PM
if the players were smart...

we seem to have found the problem here

steelfury02
12-12-2011, 01:56 PM
lol yup - which way did he go George, which way did he go?

Steelersfan87
12-12-2011, 02:00 PM
The players have no say as to who the commissioner is. He's subservient only to the owners.

steelfury02
12-12-2011, 04:05 PM
they most certainly have the power to negotiate that caveat through the owners

We don't sign A. unless you vote to supplant B.

Anyways, was saying it out of emotion - we can thank the Steelers ownership, who were among Goodell's biggest supporters for installing him

steelersfan77
12-12-2011, 04:13 PM
Defense, do not change the way you play just because you're getting fined and NFL is trying to go soft.

On the otherhand hit hard, real hard but by the new rules. James you could've blown him up no matter what even if you went low.

I was critisized for saying I thought the hit on Ben was cheap but others said it was okay because he was out of the pocket. So I guess I'm wrong.

James who cares about a concuss quarterback. If Brady does that and gets out of the pocket end his career and take his follow through knee and remove it out of the back of his leg. Please!

Afterall hitting a quarterback like that is okay right?

Chadmagic
12-12-2011, 05:14 PM
if the players were smart they would have pushed to get Goodell fired before agreeing to anything before end to lockout

Amen to this! I wondered the same thing. If I was a player, this would definitely have been a talking point in the lock out. This pansy ass way of playing is something that has been ongoing for a few seasons now. And a lot of the players see it and speak out about it. It is TACKLE football after all. If you don't want the QB to get hit, put a flag on his hip and call it a day. I would actually prefer it if they would do that. Get rid of the stupid miscalled penalties and just take the refs out of that decision making process all together.

Pull the flag and its a sack. End of discussion.

Chadmagic
12-12-2011, 05:19 PM
The players have no say as to who the commissioner is. He's subservient only to the owners.

The owners are subservient to the ticket holders and television viewers. THAT IS US!!! Don't buy tix or watch games! That will change the league back in a heartbeat. Remember the best way to get what you want, is to hit them in the pocket book.

steelfury02
12-12-2011, 05:36 PM
unfortunately what a lot of people already know is that billionaires tend not to give a crap or are given any incentive to give a crap about the little guys so while you are correct, I think we are past the point of no return - especially because of the prominence of technology and reporting of medical advancement in understanding concussions

Not saying I don't agree with protecting players because I do - just don't agree with the inconsistency in disciplining it - which I think most fans would agree with

Atlanta Dan
12-12-2011, 05:55 PM
Not a lot of contrition coming from Mr. Harrison:chuckle:

Pro Bowl linebacker James Harrison said he doesn't think he will be suspended by the National Football League for his penalized hit on Browns quarterback Colt McCoy and isn't going to worry about the possibility....

"I don't think it's suspension-worthy," Harrison said after practice. "I don't think it's worthy of anything, but that's just my own personal thoughts."...

The NFL said Harrison's hit was illegal because he violated a rule "that prohibits defensive players from using their helmet against a passer who is in a defenseless posture, including by "forcibly hitting the passer's head or neck area with the helmet or facemask."

"They didn't even call helmet-to-helmet; they called roughing the passer," Harrison said. "He took off running with it and, at the last second, he like chuck-and-ducked.

"He tucked the ball and made like he was about to run. So I was going to tackle him."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11346/1196399-100.stm

Whodis
12-12-2011, 06:07 PM
if the players were smart they would have pushed to get Goodell fired before agreeing to anything before end to lockout

Didn't the Steelers vote against the agreement because of that?

Goldsteel86
12-12-2011, 06:17 PM
Regardless of what happens, I'm still PO'd at Harrison: he KNOWS better, he knew it was the QB, he did NOT have to hit him that high he had him dead to rights and could have wrapped him or heck drive his shoulder through him. It's like you tell your kids NOT to do something and then they do it right in front of you. It no longer matters if it really was a bad thing or not...

The hit deserved the flag (dem da rulez) and I won't be upset at a fine. A suspension is too much imo. First offense this season and was between the whistles. But James, PLEASE use your head to think with brother!

And yes, the NFL is ruining the game...

This still is the game of football isn't it? Players wear pads and helmets for protection don't they? McCoy was wearing a helmet and shoulder pads wasn't he? I would say you should be "PO'd" if Harrison pulled a Ron Artest, if he chased Colt McCoy with a baseball bat, if he hit him in the face with a hockey stick, then I say be "PO'd" at him. Now Roethlisberger has been intentionally hit low a few times this season, isn't that against the rules? I believe so, how many suspensions were levied for that infraction, hmmmmm let me help you none!!!!! Ummm last year Ngata, no matter how you look at it broke Ben's nose, no not on a tackle, not on a sack, but a hand between the face mask miraculously to the nose, was there a fine, was there even a penalty, answer once again is NO!!!!! Bottom line, if you are not going to penalize the others for their "aggressive" play, don't penalize Harrison!!!

FanSince72
12-12-2011, 06:26 PM
Not a lot of contrition coming from Mr. Harrison:chuckle:

Pro Bowl linebacker James Harrison said he doesn't think he will be suspended by the National Football League for his penalized hit on Browns quarterback Colt McCoy and isn't going to worry about the possibility....

"I don't think it's suspension-worthy," Harrison said after practice. "I don't think it's worthy of anything, but that's just my own personal thoughts."...

The NFL said Harrison's hit was illegal because he violated a rule "that prohibits defensive players from using their helmet against a passer who is in a defenseless posture, including by "forcibly hitting the passer's head or neck area with the helmet or facemask."

"They didn't even call helmet-to-helmet; they called roughing the passer," Harrison said. "He took off running with it and, at the last second, he like chuck-and-ducked.

"He tucked the ball and made like he was about to run. So I was going to tackle him."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11346/1196399-100.stm

I agree with Harrison.

To me, it was a big hit but it was done legally and it's part of the game.

Fire Arians
12-12-2011, 06:49 PM
mendenhall should have chucked the ball right before gocong hit him in the helmet, maybe that woulda gave us an extra set of downs to work with lol.

Boomer
12-12-2011, 09:17 PM
The retards on ESPN seem awful confident that James will be suspended tomorrow morning. Almost a smirk on that jerk Adam Schefter when he said it. ESPN can rot in hell.

Yehoodi
12-12-2011, 09:29 PM
I agree with Harrison.

To me, it was a big hit but it was done legally and it's part of the game.

First off, I did not see McCoy "duck" . . .

Second, you can correct me if I am wrong, but one can not make contact to the head of a runner as the lead of the tackle . . . It is not like Harrison's arms were wrapping around McCoy and then there was incidental helmit contact . . . indeed and to the contrary, Harrison's arms were down by his side and came up at McCoy's chest as the crown of his helmit hit McCoy's facemask . . . this would have drawn a flag even against a runner . . .

Boomer
12-12-2011, 09:31 PM
First off, I did not see McCoy "duck" . . .

Second, you can correct me if I am wrong, but one can not make contact to the head of a runner as the lead of the tackle . . . It is not like Harrison's arms were wrapping around McCoy and then there was incidental helmit contact . . . indeed and to the contrary, Harrison's arms were down by his side and came up at McCoy's chest as the crown of his helmit hit McCoy's facemask . . . this would have drawn a flag even against a runner . . .

I don't think this is true. A runner can be hit anywhere I thought.

ravens4life
12-12-2011, 09:32 PM
James Harrison deserves to be suspended. In addition to all of his helmet to helmet hits before, he should have known that this one would bring harsher consequences. You don't see Ray Lewis or Terrell Suggs making stupid hits like this. The only person in the NFL thats worse is Suh.

Boomer
12-12-2011, 09:37 PM
James Harrison deserves to be suspended. In addition to all of his helmet to helmet hits before, he should have known that this one would bring harsher consequences. You don't see Ray Lewis or Terrell Suggs making stupid hits like this. The only person in the NFL thats worse is Suh.

Oh really raturd4life?? Watch much football??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmyhcozGRr4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFuoY0Tw-VI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-I4h0s2jnU

Seems like he's aiming for the head an awful lot to me...

therocksteeler
12-12-2011, 09:44 PM
James Harrison deserves to be suspended. In addition to all of his helmet to helmet hits before, he should have known that this one would bring harsher consequences. You don't see Ray Lewis or Terrell Suggs making stupid hits like this. The only person in the NFL thats worse is Suh.

Ratbirds!!! :rocket:

Get that one win streak and they think they are a cowboy.......geeesh!

TRH
12-12-2011, 09:45 PM
James Harrison deserves to be suspended. In addition to all of his helmet to helmet hits before, he should have known that this one would bring harsher consequences. You don't see Ray Lewis or Terrell Suggs making stupid hits like this. The only person in the NFL thats worse is Suh.

Actually, Lewis made a helmet-to-helmet hit this year in the 1st Steeler-Ravens game and wasn't even flagged for it. I couldn't believe it (OK, yes, maybe i do believe it...)

Yehoodi
12-12-2011, 09:46 PM
I don't think this is true. A runner can be hit anywhere I thought.

you may be correct, but something tells me that you can't . . . surely a QB has more protection that a runner, but will and should be deemed a runner once he starts to "run" with the ball . . . however, when he goes back to being a QB he should get his protection back . . . and I do think that the refs will give the players some leeway if the players do not have time to react in time if a QB runs and "looks" like he is going to run and then throws the ball . . . but if the the guy is behind the line of scrimmage and he is the QB in name, you run the risk if you take a run at him . . .

in this particular case McCoy did start to run foward but then runs parallel to the line of scrimmage and Harrison made contact, and to me, whether he could react or not in time to a "runner", he was none the less running towards the QB, who was still behind the LOS, and thus could throw the ball, and in that case there is really no need to try to smoke the the guy with the crown of the helmit to the facemask . . . he could of easily came foward put his helmit off center and make a monster tackle just as easily . . . shoulder right into McCloy's chest and landed to the side with McCoy . . .

there are certain times when it is obvious that unnecessary force (and in this case I believe illegal force) is used . . . it is kind of like our Vince Wilfolk, who on many occasions does not mind getting a cheap shot it, hit a Washington Redskin this past Sunday . . . it was a screen pass the the guy slipped, fell to the ground, and clearly was not going to be able to get up by the time Wilfolk got to him, and instead of mearly touching him down with two hands (as 90% of the NFL does), Wilfork (who was behind the player on the ground) came up behind and hit him really hard in the middle part of his back . . . it is "techically" a legal hit but unnecessary and correctly drew a 15 yard flag for unnecessary roughness . . .

my two cents . . .

Steelersfan87
12-12-2011, 09:46 PM
This still is the game of football isn't it? Players wear pads and helmets for protection don't they? McCoy was wearing a helmet and shoulder pads wasn't he? I would say you should be "PO'd" if Harrison pulled a Ron Artest, if he chased Colt McCoy with a baseball bat, if he hit him in the face with a hockey stick, then I say be "PO'd" at him. Now Roethlisberger has been intentionally hit low a few times this season, isn't that against the rules? I believe so, how many suspensions were levied for that infraction, hmmmmm let me help you none!!!!! Ummm last year Ngata, no matter how you look at it broke Ben's nose, no not on a tackle, not on a sack, but a hand between the face mask miraculously to the nose, was there a fine, was there even a penalty, answer once again is NO!!!!! Bottom line, if you are not going to penalize the others for their "aggressive" play, don't penalize Harrison!!!

Ngata was fined $15,000.

Boomer
12-12-2011, 09:46 PM
James Harrison deserves to be suspended. In addition to all of his helmet to helmet hits before, he should have known that this one would bring harsher consequences. You don't see Ray Lewis or Terrell Suggs making stupid hits like this. The only person in the NFL thats worse is Suh.

Who let the trash in here anyway...:noidea:

TRH
12-12-2011, 09:48 PM
One of my issues is...the hit was clearly not intentional (even thought it ended up being a helmet-to-helmet)...it was "bang-bang".
But since the media is clamoring for a suspension (you'd think the media would NOT be jumping all over this as no one wants the new brand of sissified football, thats very clear...), he's no doubt going to get one. My guess is one game and 100K fine. The league has been caving to almost all media outcrys this year and last.

Boomer
12-12-2011, 09:49 PM
you may be correct, but something tells me that you can't . . . surely a QB has more protection that a runner, but will and should be deemed a runner once he starts to "run" with the ball . . . however, when he goes back to being a QB he should get his protection back . . . and I do think that the refs will give the players some leeway if the players do not have time to react in time if a QB runs and "looks" like he is going to run and then throws the ball . . . but if the the guy is behind the line of scrimmage and he is the QB in name, you run the risk if you take a run at him . . .

in this particular case McCoy did start to run foward but then runs parallel to the line of scrimmage and Harrison made contact, and to me, whether he could react or not in time to a "runner", he was none the less running towards the QB, who was still behind the LOS, and thus could throw the ball, and in that case there is really no need to try to smoke the the guy with the crown of the helmit to the facemask . . . he could of easily came foward put his helmit off center and make a monster tackle just as easily . . . shoulder right into McCloy's chest and landed to the side with McCoy . . .

there are certain times when it is obvious that unnecessary force (and in this case I believe illegal force) is used . . . it is kind of like our Vince Wilfolk, who on many occasions does not mind getting a cheap shot it, hit a Washington Redskin this past Sunday . . . it was a screen pass the the guy slipped, fell to the ground, and clearly was not going to be able to get up by the time Wilfolk got to him, and instead of mearly touching him down with two hands (as 90% of the NFL does), Wilfork (who was behind the player on the ground) came up behind and hit him really hard in the middle part of his back . . . it is "techically" a legal hit but unnecessary and correctly drew a 15 yard flag for unnecessary roughness . . .

my two cents . . .

A QB that "looks" like is is running but then throws the ball ALWAYS has to be behind the line of scrimmage...otherwise he can't throw the ball...

Yehoodi
12-12-2011, 09:51 PM
Actually, Lewis made a helmet-to-helmet hit this year in the 1st Steeler-Ravens game and wasn't even flagged for it. I couldn't believe it (OK, yes, maybe i do believe it...)

I assume you are referring to a the hit on Ward?

The difference between the two is that Lewis is trying to and in the process of making a tackle on Ward and there is incidental contact with the helmits, the KEY difference is that Lewis has his arms out and in the process of wrapping up Ward with is arms when the helmit contact was made . . .

there is a difference when the lead portion of the "tackle" is with the helmit as opposed to the arms . . . just as there is a difference between touching a guy down and ramming into his back (see my Wilfork comments in the eariler post)

Boomer
12-12-2011, 09:52 PM
One of my issues is...the hit was clearly not intentional (even thought it ended up being a helmet-to-helmet)...it was "bang-bang".
But since the media is clamoring for a suspension (you'd think the media would NOT be jumping all over this as no one wants the new brand of sissified football, thats very clear...), he's no doubt going to get one. My guess is one game and 100K fine. The league has been caving to almost all media outcrys this year and last.

I think the people who are begging for a suspension and the ones who are looking to get in better with the NFL. There's something in it for themselves so they sell out. I sure don't remember any of these idiots insisting on suspending anyone else who's had helmet to helmet hits this year.

Boomer
12-12-2011, 09:54 PM
I assume you are referring to a the hit on Ward?

The difference between the two is that Lewis is trying to and in the process of making a tackle on Ward and there is incidental contact with the helmits, the KEY difference is that Lewis has his arms out and in the process of wrapping up Ward with is arms when the helmit contact was made . . .

there is a difference when the lead portion of the "tackle" is with the helmit as opposed to the arms . . . just as there is a difference between touching a guy down and ramming into his back (see my Wilfork comments in the eariler post)

Really? that's not what I see at all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmyhcozGRr4

Yehoodi
12-12-2011, 09:55 PM
A QB that "looks" like is is running but then throws the ball ALWAYS has to be behind the line of scrimmage...otherwise he can't throw the ball...

exactly, and that is the point . . . when the QB is behind the LOS and runs there is risk that he might still pass the ball and thus be deemed a QB, and a defender needs to be on the look out for this and willing to accept the ruling of the QB is later deemed to be a QB, it best to be save to think of him as a QB till he crosses the LOS. . .

once he crosses the LOS and can't throw the ball and thus can not possible be deemed a QB, he can only be a runner and one can have more of a free reign with his tackles. . .

Boomer
12-12-2011, 10:01 PM
exactly, and that is the point . . . when the QB is behind the LOS and runs there is risk that he might still pass the ball and thus be deemed a QB, and a defender needs to be on the look out for this and willing to accept the ruling of the QB is later deemed to be a QB, it best to be save to think of him as a QB till he crosses the LOS. . .

once he crosses the LOS and can't throw the ball and thus can not possible be deemed a QB, he can only be a runner and one can have more of a free reign with his tackles. . .

I guess I didn't understand this part of your statement then:
"and I do think that the refs will give the players some leeway if the players do not have time to react in time if a QB runs and "looks" like he is going to run and then throws the ball"

Why would the refs be giving leeway if the defense has to wait till the QB crosses the LOS? I would assume that they would be giving leeway to a player hitting the QB who takes off running behind the LOS and then throws the ball at the last second...oh wait, they DON'T give leeway, at least not to the STEELERS

Yehoodi
12-12-2011, 10:01 PM
Really? that's not what I see at all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmyhcozGRr4

at the 06/07 portion of the video Lewis has his arms out and in an arc getting ready to close on Ward . . . is there something that I am not seeing . . .

whereas Harrison's arms are down by his side and come up straight and at McCoy's chest, the video below at 1:00-1:05 shows it best . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfFW-Yezv0k

Boomer for me I see a difference when a player leads with the helmit and not in combination with the arms . . . it kind of like when a DB launches at a players and becomes like a missile - arms down by the side and head first . . .which for me is a different then a player approaching a players lowers the head and arms outstretched like a claws of a crab . . . which is what I see Ray Lewis doing . . .

Boomer
12-12-2011, 10:04 PM
at the 06/07 portion of the video Lewis has his arms out and in an arc getting ready to close on Ward . . . is there something that I am not seeing . . .

whereas Harrison's arms are down by his side and come up straight and at McCoy's chest, the video below at 1:00-1:05 shows it best . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfFW-Yezv0k

Boomer for me I see a difference when a player leads with the helmit and not in combination with the arms . . . it kind of like when a DB launches at a players and becomes like a missile - arms down by the side and head first . . .which for me is a different then a player approaching a players lowers the head and arms outstretched like a claws of a crab . . . which is what I see Ray Lewis doing . . .

Lewis lowers his head and hits Hines in the helmet. Oh sure he half way tries to reach for him but his arms never even touch Hines at all. But his helmet sure does. Look, I'm OK with hits like that. But the NFL should be fair about it, and they are not. Not even close.

Yehoodi
12-12-2011, 10:09 PM
I guess I didn't understand this part of your statement then:
"and I do think that the refs will give the players some leeway if the players do not have time to react in time if a QB runs and "looks" like he is going to run and then throws the ball"

Why would the refs be giving leeway if the defense has to wait till the QB crosses the LOS? I would assume that they would be giving leeway to a player hitting the QB who takes off running behind the LOS and then throws the ball at the last second...oh wait, they DON'T give leeway, at least not to the STEELERS

for example if the QB is running and husling towards the sideline to get out of bounds to avoid a sack (and was behind the LOS) and the defender is chasing him and at the last minute turns and tries to make a throw . . . or if the play is 3rd and 1 and the QB does a boot leg and is making a run to the sideline to make the first down and a defender is chasing him/approaching him and an inch before crossing the LOS he throws the ball and then gets hit . . .I can see the refs having some sympathy for the defender, but McCoy was not on a nake bootleg on 3rd and 1.

but when the QB is runnning paralel to the LOS his is still in the process (and mind set) to throw . . .

Sadly, I think Vick falls under the catagory that refs think is more a runner than a passer and does not get the calls that other QBs would get . . .

its late here and time for me to sign off, i'll check in tomorrow . . .

Sixburgher
12-12-2011, 10:12 PM
James Harrison deserves to be suspended. In addition to all of his helmet to helmet hits before, he should have known that this one would bring harsher consequences. You don't see Ray Lewis or Terrell Suggs making stupid hits like this.

Yeah, they only put bounties on opposing players that Goodell doesn't do shit about. Real class acts. :coffee:

OX1947
12-12-2011, 10:45 PM
The NFL and the commissioner can suck my (bleep). Maybe he should go put pads on and run 100 miles an hour and then stop and try stuff.

VegasStlrFan
12-12-2011, 10:56 PM
James Harrison deserves to be suspended. In addition to all of his helmet to helmet hits before, he should have known that this one would bring harsher consequences. You don't see Ray Lewis or Terrell Suggs making stupid hits like this. The only person in the NFL thats worse is Suh.

I have seen some stupid comments on this forum over the years, but this takes the cake...:doh: you should pull your head out of your ass!

Steelersfan87
12-12-2011, 11:03 PM
Can anybody even think of another helmet to helmet hit Harrison was flagged or fined for besides the most recent on on McCoy and the one in game 5 on Massaquoi last year?

QCbeauBlak
12-12-2011, 11:36 PM
Can anybody even think of another helmet to helmet hit Harrison was flagged or fined for besides the most recent on on McCoy and the one in game 5 on Massaquoi last year?

THIS!!! That's my point I tried to make earlier. They say he is a repeat offender. I'd like someone to list every helmet to helmet penalty he has had in the last 3 years. I do not remember James getting one this year before last week. How long does it take before the "repeat offender" gets thrown out? Is it the viciousness of his hits? I do not believe in conspiracies at all but I really do not understand this at all. If he gets suspended or fined, okay, we can deal, but please list all his helmet to helmet hits and compare them to other players in this league.. Suspending a player for an "in-play" call is unprecedented!!

Boomer
12-13-2011, 05:31 AM
THIS!!! That's my point I tried to make earlier. They say he is a repeat offender. I'd like someone to list every helmet to helmet penalty he has had in the last 3 years. I do not remember James getting one this year before last week. How long does it take before the "repeat offender" gets thrown out? Is it the viciousness of his hits? I do not believe in conspiracies at all but I really do not understand this at all. If he gets suspended or fined, okay, we can deal, but please list all his helmet to helmet hits and compare them to other players in this league.. Suspending a player for an "in-play" call is unprecedented!!

Same as suspending a player for 6 games without ever being arrested. Roger Retard has a different set of rules for the Steelers. It's not fair and it looks like he is trying to influence the outcome of games. I guess the Steelers won't stick to the script so he has to punish them.

Boomer
12-13-2011, 05:32 AM
The NFL and the commissioner can suck my (bleep). Maybe he should go put pads on and run 100 miles an hour and then stop and try stuff.

Or he could go play in traffic. I'd be OK with that! :tt04:

Whodis
12-13-2011, 06:21 AM
for example if the QB is running and husling towards the sideline to get out of bounds to avoid a sack (and was behind the LOS) and the defender is chasing him and at the last minute turns and tries to make a throw . . . or if the play is 3rd and 1 and the QB does a boot leg and is making a run to the sideline to make the first down and a defender is chasing him/approaching him and an inch before crossing the LOS he throws the ball and then gets hit . . .I can see the refs having some sympathy for the defender, but McCoy was not on a nake bootleg on 3rd and 1.

but when the QB is runnning paralel to the LOS his is still in the process (and mind set) to throw . . .

Sadly, I think Vick falls under the catagory that refs think is more a runner than a passer and does not get the calls that other QBs would get . . .

its late here and time for me to sign off, i'll check in tomorrow . . .

The problem with the rules is that they are used inconstantly. If I quarterback scrambled 2 or 3 times in a drive you assume he is going to do it again. He throws and ducks, now we are calling him defenseless?

Same can be said for low hits on a QB. I see it weekly in our games and it's safe to say maybe 1 out of 3 are called. Officiating in the NFL sucks to a point it will cost a team a game.

Lastly, it's shameful to have one of the toughest guys to ever play hockey as your avatar and cry about a quarterback that took a hard hit.

defence
12-13-2011, 07:53 AM
I have seen some stupid comments on this forum over the years, but this takes the cake...:doh: you should pull your head out of your ass!

Very well said vegas!! This coming from a guy who roots for the dirtiest team in football!! Bounties on players; never punished. Ngata deliberate punch breaking bens nose; nothing. Take vegas advice and pull your head out of your ass for real!!

steelfury02
12-13-2011, 08:47 AM
ah yes, the self-righteous Ravens fan - what a sight to behold

its ok everyone, pity the Ravens fan, for half their heart lays with Colts history, and half their mind belongs in Cleveland

LOL

get outta here with your 2nd rate team . . .

Yehoodi
12-15-2011, 09:03 AM
The problem with the rules is that they are used inconstantly. If I quarterback scrambled 2 or 3 times in a drive you assume he is going to do it again. He throws and ducks, now we are calling him defenseless?

Same can be said for low hits on a QB. I see it weekly in our games and it's safe to say maybe 1 out of 3 are called. Officiating in the NFL sucks to a point it will cost a team a game.

Lastly, it's shameful to have one of the toughest guys to ever play hockey as your avatar and cry about a quarterback that took a hard hit.

Whodis, I do agree with you that the low hits on the QB, the QB/RB anaylsis, the QB dive (timing of), and late hit out of bounds are all tricky to call and to a degree it based somewhat on reputation . . . (interestingly one of the "don't hit the QB cause he is going out of bounds" was when Tedy B. held up on K. Stewart in that late 90's playoff game, and Stewart faked going out of bounds then run up the sideline)

so yes it is not perfect, but none the less we do have the protection, and if there area few cases here and there where "it should not have been called" or cause a defender to hold up when he would otherwise not, then I will take as we gain the benefit of the safety of the players . . .i will take take that every day of the week and twice on Sundays . . .

Interestingly, that you bring up Bobby Orr . . . one of things that can be prevented with rules regarding sports safety is the reduction in season ending and perhaps career ending injuries . . . if you remember Orr only played nine season (winning the Norris trophy 8 times), and retire at the age of 28 and played his last full season as the age of 27!!, WELL within his prime . . . sadly do to in part low hits, his knees gave out and the sport lost one of its brightest stars at the age of 27 . . .

and my Pats team lost Brady in 2008 to a low hit to the knee . . .

you can stil be tough and have hart hits, but it the hits that could cause permanent damage or season/career ending that need to be curtailed, you still have many many more different knds of hits outside of the ones that are made illegal . . . and for me i for one enjoy and support a sport that can still be tough and agreesive but yet thin out the hits that can result in permanent damage . . .

look at your own Penquins and Crosby and his concussions, hockey and Pitt is missing out on a great player . . .

Yehoodi
12-15-2011, 09:15 AM
Lewis lowers his head and hits Hines in the helmet. Oh sure he half way tries to reach for him but his arms never even touch Hines at all. But his helmet sure does. Look, I'm OK with hits like that. But the NFL should be fair about it, and they are not. Not even close.

as a mention above in the post to whodis, it is tough to judge some of this hits . . .

but for me i look at Lewis coming to make a play and tackle and his helmet "happens" to make contact with Ward, whereas Harrison's point of contact, thrust of his moving (if you will), was towards McCoys head . . .Harrisons arms were not in a tackling position . ..

Speaking of Lewis and the consistency of the refs, Harrison's hit was just like Lewis hit on Chad O., with the thrust of the hit towards the head and the arms out in front as opposed to a wrapping action . . . and in the Lewis hit, he it was flag and find . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttcp0HdNGrY&feature=related

so the nfl is consistent, in the Lewis/Chad O. and Harrison hits the impedus of the "tackle" was contact to the head, and the Lewis/Ward hit the impedus was a wrapping motion with the arms . . .

you may disagree but there is a difference between coming at a player head first with arms out front (or down by side) and coming head first with the arms outstretch in a wrapping motion, the later is one trying the make a tackle with the arms and top of body, the former is a player trying to make a "tackle" by cold c*cking the guy with a hit to the head with the arms not being used to make the "tackle" . . . and if the former is taken out of the game than no problem by me . . .

to me the difference can be seen . . .

Kanata-Steeler
12-15-2011, 09:34 AM
Re: Will James Harrison be suspended? Is the NFL out to get the Steelers?
Yes,
and,
Yes
to both questions.