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View Full Version : Your stand on illegal hits and laying up on defenseless reciever or QB?


steelersfan77
12-16-2011, 06:44 PM
Those are truly the only two options, correct? It's not the spearing that's the problem or leading with your helmet, When it comes down to it it's hitting a defenseless offensive player right?

I started looking at the Ryan Clark play where he knocked the snout of of Ed Dickson of the ravens. First thing that was obvious was that it was a penalty. In 2011 that's a penalty. Clark not only left his feet running at full speed with his head down (spearing) but he also hit a defenseless reciever. He also made contact with alot of his shoulder but still spearing nonetheless. Dickson was just turning his head as Clark made contact on what looked to be a streak down the field with safety help over the top. Obviously Clark had help over the top and he's probably the hardest hitting safety in the league. At times I don't think he cares about his own self and safety.

I guess I was wondering how Clark could've hit him more proper. Not left his feet? Even if he doesn't leave his feet and hits him at full speed it's still hitting a defenseless reciever. Even if he doesn't make helmet to helmet contact he's still hitting a defenseless reciever. He timed the play perfectly after reading Flacco and had a full head of steam as he commited to the contact. His timing was impeccable. How could he have played that better?

My brother and I talked about this for a while last night. We came to the conclusion that Clark should've just layed up and that would've negated any penalty, fine or harm to the offensive player. It would've been at least a 30 yard completion. Later that night during the Jacksonville/Atlanta game Matt Ryan tried to fit a pass into a reciever under safety help and as the ball arrived the defender layed up and took the punishment with a helmet to the chest. In my mind a strong safety in the NFL would've layed some wood there that would've make Ronnie Lott proud.

That leads me to believe the only thing you can do is lay up and take the puninshment instead of dishing it out.

What do you guys think?

Fire Arians
12-16-2011, 06:51 PM
clark penalty and fine was bullshit, that was a legal hit. he targeted the ball and led with the shoulder. dickson cringed before the hit, lowering his head, and even then, there was little contact with the face mask of the receiver. I don't know if you can get any more textbook than that play for separating the receiver from the ball. they NEED to let defenders do this. It's not like he went all brandon merriweather on his ass and launched into him with the intent of taking his head off. his target was the football.

the harrison hit on mccoy was illegal all the way and should have been a penalty and fine. what I DON'T agree on is a suspension for a play that happened so quickly, and being james first fineable offense this entire year. the league overreacted on that. suspensions shouldn't happen unless fouls are flagrant, or after the play. suh's stomp or wilfork's eye gouge can't be compared to harrison just trying to make a play

steelersfan77
12-16-2011, 07:01 PM
clark penalty and fine was bullshit, that was a legal hit. he targeted the ball and led with the shoulder. dickson cringed before the hit, lowering his head, and even then, there was little contact with the face mask of the receiver. I don't know if you can get any more textbook than that play for separating the receiver from the ball. they NEED to let defenders do this. It's not like he went all brandon merriweather on his ass and launched into him with the intent of taking his head off. his target was the football.

the harrison hit on mccoy was illegal all the way and should have been a penalty and fine. what I DON'T agree on is a suspension for a play that happened so quickly, and being james first fineable offense this entire year. the league overreacted on that. suspensions shouldn't happen unless fouls are flagrant, or after the play. suh's stomp or wilfork's eye gouge can't be compared to harrison just trying to make a play

I don't want to argue whether that was an illegal hit or not. He was still hitting a defenseless reciever right? Even with alot of shoulder contact and some helmet to helmet contact he still hit a defenseless reciever. He was making contact at full speed with the intent to seperate man from ball. He did that but even with the most text book tackle at full speed the hit would've still looked like a train wreck. Clark had to do that regardless, Dickson outweighs him by a good bit in size and he wanted to break the play up.

I'm starting to think that no matter how he tackled him, textbook or not, with that much speed and force it's going to look worse than what it may be in full speed or slow mo. It's going to make a ref reach for the yellow out of pure panic for the safety of the reciever.

I truly can't think of what else he could've done any different than laying up. In that situation he takes the pain and doesn't seperate the ball.

Help me. I'm a little confused right now.

Bayz101
12-16-2011, 08:01 PM
It looked to me as if Clark was attempting to dislodge the ball from the receivers hands, using his helmet. However, that didn't happen, and Clark make some serious contact. Unfortunately, it was an illegal hit of today's standards, even if it was incidental. Which we don't know for sure.

Steelersfan87
12-16-2011, 08:31 PM
Incidental helmet to helmet contact is a real grey area. In matters in which it ultimately comes to nothing, you'd think, "why the hell was that a penalty"? But when it's incidental and both guys suffer severe concussions, I'm more liable to think "there should be rules to seriously discourage players from even being in the position to hit helmets in that way (like on a receiver running across the middle of the field). Ultimately, I respect the notion of trying to reduce the number of concussions by penalizing actions that lead to those concussions. But I also feel that it's implemented and enforced haphazardly and inconsistently. I really don't have a conclusive answer as to my opinion on the subject. However, I tend to think the well-being of other people is paramount to the 'sanctity' of the violent nature of a game.

MasterOfPuppets
12-16-2011, 09:45 PM
90% of these hits that used to be appladed would now result in fines and suspensions...

RkS2PTuZeoA

Bayz101
12-16-2011, 10:22 PM
90% of these hits that used to be appladed would now result in fines and suspensions...

RkS2PTuZeoA

I got a lot of enjoyment out of that video. Goodell needs to die. Now.

SoCalFan
12-17-2011, 12:41 AM
THATS FOOTBALL!!! Loved the vid! Seriously, the No Fun League is in jeapordy of losing alot of fans! Just put all QBs in bright orange jerseys and call them touch only!

Bayz101
12-17-2011, 01:43 AM
THATS FOOTBALL!!! Loved the vid! Seriously, the No Fun League is in jeapordy of losing alot of fans! Just put all QBs in bright orange jerseys and call them touch only!

I don't see today's players changing the way they play very much, to be honest. Even the next generation of players will likely be in hot water, because I just don't see a complete overhaul of the way football is played working out. Even College is tougher and more lenient right now.

The fines and suspensions will just keep coming and coming, and sooner or later, some changes will be made. I hope football seen in that video makes a long term appearance, and soon.

#1LambertFan
12-17-2011, 07:18 AM
2008 was when I played my last play for Jacksonville U. Throughout high school and the 2 years I played college ball you were taught to hit with your head to the opposing players head and wrap up. It was the most sure way to tackle and the only way coaches would be happy. I didn't play any defense in college but I was a fullback that got 10+ carries a game and I have taken my fair share of these hits Nd can personally attest to the fact that those hits don't worry you. It's when you take a hit to the knees and lose feeling in your legs is when you worry about your wellbeing.

Goldsteel86
12-17-2011, 07:54 AM
The game I played growing up was called FOOTBALL, as a very smart high school football coach once told us "The Game of Football is Nothing Short of a Controlled War", we all know War is Hell!!!!! The NFL has gotten real, I mean real soft, the question I have to ask is this, the hits weren't an issue during Rozelle's tenure, they weren't an issue with Tagliabue, why all of the sudden are they such a big issue with Goodell? Now I get the concussion issue, however, concussions have always been a part of football, no matter what you do they will not be avoided, sort of like torn, ACL's, MCL' s etc.... So what does Goodell do next, no tackling below the waist? :banging::mad:

#1LambertFan
12-17-2011, 08:03 AM
The game I played growing up was called FOOTBALL, as a very smart high school football coach once told us "The Game of Football is Nothing Short of a Controlled War", we all know War is Hell!!!!! The NFL has gotten real, I mean real soft, the question I have to ask is this, the hits weren't an issue during Rozelle's tenure, they weren't an issue with Tagliabue, why all of the sudden are they such a big issue with Goodell? Now I get the concussion issue, however, concussions have always been a part of football, no matter what you do they will not be avoided, sort of like torn, ACL's, MCL' s etc.... So what does Goodell do next, no tackling below the waist? :banging::mad:

No tackling at all. He wants basketball scores

FanSince72
12-17-2011, 09:59 AM
What's needed are more refs like Ben Dreith who knew when someone was giving someone else "the business down there".

Since many cases of helmet-to-helmet contact are judgement calls, I think there needs to be better judgement. A good ref knows the difference between incidental contact and headhunting and that judgement needs to be part of the call or no-call. Right now, the ref's hands are tied by the way the rules are written as well as by the hysteria about concussions, so that ANY helmet contact is automatically called out when in many cases helmet-to-helmet contact is in the form of a glancing blow or simply a rebound from contacting a players pads and is clearly not an attempt to injure.

Many times when a law (or rule) is the subject of a "crackdown" extreme enforcement is the result and every single little thing is put under a microscope and even the slightest infraction is treated as a major offense. Once all the hoopla dies down, things become more forgiving but that takes time. And for players such as Harrison who ramp up the rhetoric and publicly protest the enforcement, it takes even longer.

It shouldn't be that way, but there's always a difference between what should be and what is.

4xSBChamps
12-17-2011, 12:25 PM
90% of these hits that used to be appladed would now result in fines and suspensions...

RkS2PTuZeoA

I got a lot of enjoyment out of that video. Goodell needs to die. Now.

the (once) great sport of Professional Football should-not be run by a woman

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y272/Glensgages/football/MikeCurtiscreamsRomanGabriel.jpg

that's MY stand on the state of the NFL at this point in-time

stb_steeler
12-17-2011, 12:40 PM
Theres less penalties and fines in womans football
http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss327/natedogg313/Lingerie-Football-League_3.jpg

4xSBChamps
12-17-2011, 01:29 PM
http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss327/natedogg313/Lingerie-Football-League_3.jpg

Ms. Goodell would fine the girl in the center of the picture, with the Pink band around her thigh, for a 'uniform violation' (it appears the rest of the team is wearing Black), then give the band to Marcia

BengalDestroyer
12-17-2011, 02:06 PM
My thoughts - If you don't want to get hit, don't play football. If you want to be a commissioner of a sports league that involves no hitting, go to the NBA or the MLS or MLB, stay the f*&$! out of football.

Goodell is destroying everything great about this league. He is making it harder and harder for me to watch pro football.

Ryan Clark and James Harrison are not dirty football players. They are great football players.
Richard Seymour and Ray Lewis are dirty, scum bag players. But they are not Steelers (that's another story)
Ndamukung Suh is just dumb and immature. I would not consider him dirty, over aggressive and dumb? sure

jjpro11
12-17-2011, 02:15 PM
the NFL sucks.. every game is marred by horrible and inconsistent officiating. they are turning it into an arena football/flag football type of game with all the rules. it's going to continue to get worse with new rules being introduced each year.

Steelersfan87
12-17-2011, 02:43 PM
The game I played growing up was called FOOTBALL, as a very smart high school football coach once told us "The Game of Football is Nothing Short of a Controlled War", we all know War is Hell!!!!! The NFL has gotten real, I mean real soft, the question I have to ask is this, the hits weren't an issue during Rozelle's tenure, they weren't an issue with Tagliabue, why all of the sudden are they such a big issue with Goodell? Now I get the concussion issue, however, concussions have always been a part of football, no matter what you do they will not be avoided, sort of like torn, ACL's, MCL' s etc.... So what does Goodell do next, no tackling below the waist? :banging::mad:

You obviously don't "get" the "concussion issue" if you don't understand why concussions are treated differently now than they were 10, 20, 30 years ago. What the league is doing, at the core, is important, and necessary. It's not being implemented smoothly and obviously plenty of people have various forms of disagreements with it, but with what science has told us about concussions and the effects of concussions, it is a moral imperative for there to be some sort of system in place to prevent and discourage the actions that lead to concussions. That sentiment is one that I fully support.

And Ryan Clark hits guys in the head way too often. Maybe he's not a "dirty player" necessarily, but then again, maybe he is. Just because he's a Steeler doesn't mean he's perfect.

Bayz101
12-17-2011, 02:46 PM
You obviously don't "get" the "concussion issue" if you don't understand why concussions are treated differently now than they were 10, 20, 30 years ago. What the league is doing, at the core, is important, and necessary. It's not being implemented smoothly and obviously plenty of people have various forms of disagreements with it, but with what science has told us about concussions and the effects of concussions, it is a moral imperative for there to be some sort of system in place to prevent and discourage the actions that lead to concussions. That sentiment is one that I fully support.

And Ryan Clark hits guys in the head way too often. Maybe he's not a "dirty player" necessarily, but then again, maybe he is. Just because he's a Steeler doesn't mean he's perfect.

Goodell? Is that you???

:chuckle:

Steelersfan87
12-17-2011, 03:14 PM
You people can't be serious. Is it seriously more important for people to be able to hit each other in the head without being flagged, fined, or suspended than it is for the people who get hit in the head to be able to feed and bathe themselves later on in life?

Bayz101
12-17-2011, 03:29 PM
You people can't be serious. Is it seriously more important for people to be able to hit each other in the head without being flagged, fined, or suspended than it is for the people who get hit in the head to be able to feed and bathe themselves later on in life?

Listen, Roger. We just want football back. Good old, hard hitting football! If someone is constantly going for the head, hit his ass right back! You know what your risking when you go out on the gridiron! Just like Nascar racers know they could die at any given moment. It's a risk you take, and your being payed damn well to do so!

Black N' Yellow
12-17-2011, 04:33 PM
Dodens is right... I'm all for hard hitting football and the occasional accidental helmet-to-helmet is fine. But deliberately headhunting and not trying to avoid using the head in hits is wrong with what we now know about head injuries.

Its just a game in the end. Is having your brain falling apart when you're 70 really worth it?

steelersfan77
12-17-2011, 05:14 PM
If a player is worried about head injurys and concussions why does he play football? I'll say this everytime there is a hit to the helmet there is a swelling of the brain even if it's ever so slightly. We were on the argument earlier about the rules of being able to hit a running back helmet to helmet without fines or penalites simply because the runner knows what he's up against and he's not defenseless. That's ridiculous because everytime he takes a shot to the helmet he's getting his bell rung. Guarantee it. Everytime.

Maybe the league is trying to get rid of football players for something else. The CFL is a league that is a lot softer. Go play there McCoy.

It's either get rid of helmet to helmet contact all together or have better rules to enforce it. Right now they're junk.

Steelersfan87
12-17-2011, 06:50 PM
I don't have a problem with not being allowed to hit a defenseless player in the head, and I question the moral compass of the person who does. This is an issue beyond common workplace hazards. With what we know about concussions today, we are in the process of reevaluating what we are permitted to ask another human being to do. Players themselves need to be made more aware of how a concussion will impact their brain functionality for the rest of their lives, because I'm convinced that if not the majority, then a healthy minority of players don't even understand what a concussion is, and it's pretty obvious that most fans don't either. Maybe if they did, they wouldn't be so callous and cold blooded and seemingly ignorant of the fact that they're talking about the lives of other human beings.

steelersfan77
12-17-2011, 07:29 PM
What is a concussion?

A concussion is a type of traumatic brain injury that is caused by a blow to the head or body, a fall, or another injury that jars or shakes the brain inside the skull. Although there may be cuts or bruises on the head or face, there may be no other visible signs of a brain injury.

You don't have to pass out (lose consciousness) to have a concussion. Some people will have obvious symptoms of a concussion, such as passing out or forgetting what happened right before the injury. But other people won't. With rest, most people fully recover from a concussion. Some people recover within a few hours. Other people take a few weeks to recover.

In rare cases concussions cause more serious problems. Repeated concussions or a severe concussion may require surgery or lead to long-lasting problems with movement, learning, or speaking. Because of the small chance of permanent brain problems, it is important to contact a doctor if you or someone you know has symptoms of a concussion.

What causes a concussion?

Your brain is a soft organ that is surrounded by spinal fluid and protected by your hard skull. Normally, the fluid around your brain acts like a cushion that keeps your brain from banging into your skull. But if your head or your body is hit hard, your brain can crash into your skull and be injured.

There are many ways to get a concussion. Some common ways include fights, falls, playground injuries, car crashes, and bike accidents. Concussions can also happen while participating in any sport or activity such as football, boxing, hockey, soccer, skiing, or snowboarding.

What are the symptoms?

It is not always easy to know if someone has a concussion. You don't have to pass out (lose consciousness) to have a concussion.

Symptoms of a concussion range from mild to severe and can last for hours, days, weeks, or even months. If you notice any symptoms of a concussion, contact your doctor.

Symptoms of a concussion fit into four main categories:

Thinking and remembering
Not thinking clearly
Feeling slowed down
Not being able to concentrate
Not being able to remember new information
Physical
Headache
Fuzzy or blurry vision
Nausea and vomiting
Dizziness
Sensitivity to light or noise
Balance problems
Feeling tired or having no energy
Emotional and mood
Easily upset or angered
Sad
Nervous or anxious
More emotional
Sleep
Sleeping more than usual
Sleeping less than usual
Having a hard time falling asleep

From reading this I further understand more about what a concussion is.

If a football player doesn't want to suffer this disorder, whether temporary or prolonged, don't play the game of football. It's bound to happen. Go find another profession.

Since football has been around defender's have weighed themselves by how much their feared on the gridiron. Whether that's a lineman, linebacker or safety looking to ring your bell or a cornerback that's feared enough not be thrown at. I don't buy the fact that there are players or fans that are hoping to see another player become concuss. I don't believe that there are football players out there who intentionally try to hurt another player. Helmets and bodies just collide. That's the way it. If you can't see that as a fan of the game or a player you're just being ignorant.

I made the argument in another post about the collisions between a running back and linebacker. The difference between helmet to helmet contact with a defenseless player and one that is not. A wide reciever who just recieves a pass and has his bell rung is defenseless and helmet to helmet contact is probably going to make the player concuss. The player is probably going to get and show signs of not knowing where he is. Correct? So they're trying to get rid of it in the NFL.

Let's get back to the running back. He's not considered defenseless by NFL rules and so helmet to helmet contact is allowed. What do you think happens to those players brains when a running back and linebacker meet in a hole at high levels of speed and make helmet to helmet contact? There are definetly concussion symptoms going on there. Helmets meet with each other, bells are ringing, paint is being swapped and brains inside a skull are shaking. Players are probably getting up woosy and show signs of concussion like symptoms. But that's okay with the NFL.

What's the difference between the two?

QCbeauBlak
12-17-2011, 07:45 PM
What is a concussion?

Let's get back to the running back.

What's the difference between the two?

This is where I have a problem. There have been these studies about players suffering later in life. I am curious what percentage of these players are quarterbacks and receivers? You cannot preach player safety and only protect two positions on the field. I played offensive tackle through high school and one year of college ball. I have suffered 2 concussions from on-coming outside linebackers. What about me? If I were in the NFL who gives a sh*t about me? Like stated above, you don't have to be knocked out to have a concussion.

QCbeauBlak
12-17-2011, 07:48 PM
Also, one huge element of the game used to be 1.) A defender separating the ball from the receiver and 2.) Having a quarterback who is smart enough not to get his receiver killed. You cannot give bad quarterbacks a pass for making horrible decisions, setting his guy up to get laid out. Why should the defender be punished?

4xSBChamps
12-17-2011, 07:54 PM
Also, one huge element of the game used to be 1.) A defender separating the ball from the receiver and 2.) Having a quarterback who is smart enough not to get his receiver killed. You cannot give bad quarterbacks a pass for making horrible decisions, setting his guy up to get laid out. Why should the defender be punished?

when this came-up last year, I saw a round-table discussion on ESPN, featuring 4-6 former League QB, who said that only 5 present day QB are smart-enough to NOT lead their intended receivers into harm's way:
despite all of the fantasy-crap stats, and outrageous QB ratings, this panel said a vast majority were as-much to blame for injuries to receivers as defenders

if John Unitas put John Mackey into a vulnerable position, does anybody doubt Mackey would've smacked Unitas in the ensuing huddle?

Bayz101
12-17-2011, 07:59 PM
when this came-up last year, I saw a round-table discussion on ESPN, featuring 4-6 former League QB, who said that only 5 present day QB are smart-enough to NOT lead their intended receivers into harm's way:
despite all of the fantasy-crap stats, and outrageous QB ratings, this panel said a vast majority were as-much to blame for injuries to receivers as defenders

if John Unitas put John Mackey into a vulnerable position, does anybody doubt Mackey would've smacked Unitas in the ensuing huddle?

Bottom line is: Football's a dangerous sport. If your not tough, don't play. It's hard enough for a quarterback to be aware of the time he's taking to throw, setting his feet, squaring his shoulders, griping the ball, releasing it correctly and hitting his receivers.

Steelersfan87
12-17-2011, 10:50 PM
I don't understand why people keep talking about the players being afraid and this and that. This has nothing to do with what the players think, it's about the league trying to protect the players from situations that have a high risk of resulting in a concussion. Suffering a concussion has nothing to do with toughness. There is a profound difference between a brain injury and any other kind of injury, and I don't think that's still being appreciated enough. Yet for all the complaints that the NFL is turning into flag football, nobody ever mentions how runners and defenders and linemen are not protected as defenseless players, they'd rather just point that out as hypocrisy instead of the NFL not over-policing the game. The objective of the defenseless player initiative is to protect players that are not in a position to avoid a concussive hit, unlike runners and defenders and linemen, who are looking forward and around them and see where the pressure is coming from. Wide receivers are trying to run the proper route, get open, and secure the football, while quarterbacks are either surveying the field and trying to throw a guy open or trying to escape pressure. So, the nature of their field awareness is different, and that's why they're protected differently. As far as concussion go with respect to those suffered from multiple dull blows experienced over the course of years, which was the case for Mike Webster, I really don't know what the NFL could even do about that, except to completely change the game. Would you rather have that, or would you rather the slightly altered game that we have now with defenseless player rules?