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View Full Version : Is Ben really an elite qb or a good qb?


Rush58
12-19-2011, 11:27 PM
ben's overall numbers are good but not great. O production is still in the low 20s (ppg) when ben was playing great. i'm just not buying elite.

my elite list is:

brady
brees
rodgers

good qbs
ben
eli
rivers
romo (barely)
ryan


average qbs
sanchez
flacco
alex smith

jjpro11
12-19-2011, 11:29 PM
if you're basing that on his whole career, then fine.. i don't agree, but it's your opinion.. just don't rush to judgement based off this one game playing with a bad ankle. yeah, he played like shit.. it was his worst game since week 1.. but he had plenty of great games in between.

btw, Peyton Manning is elite as long as his neck holds up.

tanda10506
12-19-2011, 11:30 PM
Not to be rude, but every few weeks/months there is a post like this questioning Ben. Yes, he is an elite QB, he's proved it time and time again. Like I said I'm not trying to be rude, but defending an excellent QB who wins us games and championships for us.

rocckbottomxmen
12-19-2011, 11:30 PM
r u kidding me....the difference between Ben and those others is they have an oc who knows how to call plays. oh and did I mention they have an oline. With all that said isn't qb's measured by winning in this league. I cannot believe some of the stuff that's posted here

Fire Arians
12-19-2011, 11:30 PM
Yes he is. With all his injuries qbs like Brady would have beem sitting out since last week

TRH
12-19-2011, 11:32 PM
i hate the word "elite". Ben is a great leader, a general with above average position skills. Unfortunately, he's paired with a foolish, idiot offensive coordinator.
Best thing for Ben would be to get to start working w/a new one. And soon.

BBCC
12-19-2011, 11:32 PM
Ben on any team makes that team, a playoff team.

BLACK_AND_YELLOW
12-19-2011, 11:32 PM
ben's overall numbers are good but not great. O production is still in the low 20s (ppg) when ben was playing great. i'm just not buying elite.

my elite list is:

brady
brees
rodgers

good qbs
ben
eli
rivers
romo (barely)
ryan


average qbs
sanchez
flacco
alex smith

last time i check them 3 elite QBs you wrote down haa a o-line to help them out

jjpro11
12-19-2011, 11:33 PM
i hate the word "elite". Ben is a great leader, a general with above average position skills. Unfortunately, he's paired with a foolish, idiot offensive coordinator.
Best thing for Ben would be to get to start working w/a new one. And soon.

a consistently solid oline wouldn't hurt either.. i thought the oline played well in the first half, but they absolutely fell apart in the second half.

Rush58
12-19-2011, 11:36 PM
ben is good at what he does but i don't see him torching a team such as the browns or bills. to me, ben is a more consistent eli manning when healthy. eli is also a good qb but still way too inaccurate.

lipps83
12-19-2011, 11:37 PM
I think Ben is an elite skilled QB with just above average QB smarts that is handicapped by the worst offensive coordinator in any level of football from pee wee to the pros.

TRH
12-19-2011, 11:39 PM
a consistently solid oline wouldn't hurt either.. i thought the oline played well in the first half, but they absolutely fell apart in the second half.


true.
Starks was blatantly exposed tonight. He's been solid....but this guy figured out how to beat him. And beat him badly. Instead of just trying to get through him, he danced, moved quickly back and forth, and danced and turned him right around. Almost every...single...time. Fancy footwork. I was watching this and the 49er just put on a clinic.

rocckbottomxmen
12-19-2011, 11:39 PM
ben is good at what he does but i don't see him torching a team such as the browns or bills. to me, ben is a more consistent eli manning when healthy. eli is also a good qb but still way too inaccurate.

Thats because he has Arians......Do you not consider the 05 super run him torching the competition

Curtain_of_Steel
12-19-2011, 11:40 PM
Elite without a doubt

High ankle sprain on one foot
Bad foot on the other side.

Oline that basically quit and couldnt block for sh!t

Granted Ben made some poor decisions, but so has Brady, Manning, Brees.

stb_steeler
12-19-2011, 11:42 PM
AGAIN with the elite thread...geeeezus

Polamalu43
12-19-2011, 11:42 PM
ben's overall numbers are good but not great. O production is still in the low 20s (ppg) when ben was playing great. i'm just not buying elite.

my elite list is:

brady
brees
rodgers

good qbs
ben
eli
rivers
romo (barely)
ryan


average qbs
sanchez
flacco
alex smith


HAHA, really? dude is Elite no doubt.. Please take She-Li Manning off this list dude is garbage! dont ever compare him to big ben

madtowndrunkard
12-19-2011, 11:42 PM
As for tonight Ben was BAD... no doubt about it. I'm not ready to judge his entire career on tonight. I'll just say Ben probably lost the game for us tonight with his BAD performance.

I'd still say he's a GREAT QB over all.... he just killed us tonight....with help from our HORRIBLE O-line. Bruce Arians can also share the blame.

It felt like Bill Cowher just kicked our ass. Harbough knows what he's doing.

TRH
12-19-2011, 11:46 PM
AGAIN with the elite thread...geeeezus

I hear ya.
I'm up for petitioning the moderator to delete any threads that are titled "is Ben an elite QB?" immediately.
How many threads like that have there been? About 45 in the last year? :tombstone

ZoneBlitzer
12-19-2011, 11:47 PM
At one point, I thought he was elite. But now, I think he's regressing. I'm not happy with the interceptions (re: the SB), the fumbles and the injuries from his style of play. If you're in double digits for INTs for the year, you got a problem. He's just too careless with the ball at times. Sure his gunslinger ways has produced results, but there's a downside to that and I think we are starting to see that. Take a look at Favre late in his career - I think Ben will head in the same direction producing inopportune turnovers at key times. It's time to get an insurance policy and draft a QB to replace him. Start looking now because mark my words, Ben will suffer a season-ending injury in the not too distant future.

TRH
12-19-2011, 11:54 PM
At one point, I thought he was elite. But now, I think he's regressing. I'm not happy with the interceptions (re: the SB), the fumbles and the injuries from his style of play. If you're in double digits for INTs for the year, you got a problem. He's just too careless with the ball at times. Sure his gunslinger ways has produced results, but there's a downside to that and I think we are starting to see that. Take a look at Favre late in his career - I think Ben will head in the same direction producing inopportune turnovers at key times. It's time to get an insurance policy and draft a QB to replace him. Start looking now because mark my words, Ben will suffer a season-ending injury in the not too distant future.


also when Rogers and Brady play on a national stage, they tend to elevate their game and look like Superman.
Ben, since the Super Bowl of '09, has played poorly on national stage games......in fact, "dumbing" down his games big time.

Rush58
12-19-2011, 11:57 PM
we can't blame everything on arians. ben is too blame too. he's not the greatest at reading d(s) and anticipating the coverage as brady, and brees. this is big in the redzone.

stb_steeler
12-19-2011, 11:59 PM
I hear ya.
I'm up for petitioning the moderator to delete any threads that are titled "is Ben an elite QB?" immediately.
How many threads like that have there been? About 45 in the last year? :tombstone

Maybe more lol.....what gets me the most is, its not brought up until he loses!

Rush58
12-20-2011, 12:17 AM
stb, but i bet most threads are either the two polar ends. ben's best game this season against the pats and we still only scored in the early 20s. how many points do u believe brees or rodgers would have score were they inserted in that game? that's all i'm saying.

ZoneBlitzer
12-20-2011, 12:22 AM
stb, but i bet most threads are either the two polar ends. ben's best game this season against the pats and we still only scored in the early 20s. how many points do u believe brees or rodgers would have score were they inserted in that game? that's all i'm saying.

Precisely. The fact that the Pats were still in that game was unacceptable. This offense has struggled all season long. It is not a very good offense. When it produces turnovers versus points, it's even worse. They look good for spells until they stall and when they stall, it is bloody ugly to watch. It is throwback football of the worst kind, total ineptitude. And for some reason, it's ok with MT.

stb_steeler
12-20-2011, 12:28 AM
stb, but i bet most threads are either the two polar ends. ben's best game this season against the pats and we still only scored in the early 20s. how many points do u believe brees or rodgers would have score were they inserted in that game? that's all i'm saying.

I understand what your saying, but answer me this...how long would Brees and Rodgers last with this Oline?
Ive come to a conclusion that this isnt a good year, i get that much. But i bet most of you havent been around long enough to remember the really bad years of never winning anything. Have we come to expect every single year the Steelers are gonna stomp other teams all season long?....

Bayz101
12-20-2011, 12:57 AM
As far as i'm concerned, he has two superbowls. That's more than a lot of "Elite" quarterback's could say right now. As a matter of fact, only one of your listed "Elite" QB's have more superbowls then Ben.

tony hipchest
12-20-2011, 01:03 AM
ben's overall numbers are good but not great. O production is still in the low 20s (ppg) when ben was playing great. i'm just not buying elite.

my elite list is:



i could really care less. ben is the steelers qb, therefore the qb i root for.

i dont care if hines and harrison is on anyones "dirtiest players" list. i couldnt give 2 shits if people think polamalu isnt adefensive mvp.

**** em.

JCPsteelers
12-20-2011, 01:07 AM
The offense has a very glaring weakness: The offensive line is not very good. We can't really run the ball anymore and the pass protection can be shaky at times. I think the offense is a little bit above average but it definitely isn't elite.

QCbeauBlak
12-20-2011, 01:12 AM
Yup, sure up the o-line, you will see completely different results. btw, where did all this "elite" talk come from? Back in the 90's I never really remember hearing that term. Today's QB's are so different and possess different skill sets that it is harder to compare them. Ben gets us to the playoffs and that's all that matters to me. Management and coaches have to take care of the rest. But yeah, with this offensive line I can't see us going anywhere. Then again, I said that about our o-line last December...

Sixburgher
12-20-2011, 01:15 AM
stb, but i bet most threads are either the two polar ends. ben's best game this season against the pats and we still only scored in the early 20s. how many points do u believe brees or rodgers would have score were they inserted in that game? that's all i'm saying.

The mighty Brady only managed 17 that game. How'd (a completely healthy) Rodgers do against KC? Brees got completely shit on by one of the worst teams in the league in the form of the Rams not too long ago as well. Just sayin'.

tony hipchest
12-20-2011, 01:17 AM
lost in all this (for those who havent been paying attention to the REST of the league this season) is that the 49ers are a pretty damn good defense.

ive seen a totally healthy ben lay stinkers just as big as tonights game, in the past.

alot of steelerfans just pay attention to what the steelers are doing and not the rest of the nfl.

Bayz101
12-20-2011, 01:19 AM
lost in all this (for those who havent been paying attention to the REST of the league this season) is that the 49ers are a pretty damn good defense.

ive seen a totally healthy ben lay stinkers just as big as tonights game, in the past.

alot of steelerfans just pay attention to what the steelers are doing and not the rest of the nfl.

and then a lot of them pay attention to what we do bad, and vanish when we're successful.

DanRooney
12-20-2011, 02:00 AM
This team rides Ben. Now our D isn't elite but good.

plenewken
12-20-2011, 05:51 AM
I wrote several weeks ago that the Steelers will lose in SFO. Last night's game was not a surprise for me, regardless of Ben's physical condition.
SFO is a very good team with an excellent defense and we rarely play well on the West Coast.

Darkstorm05
12-20-2011, 06:40 AM
Big Ben quote this morning...

"It's their call to say yes or no. I'll go out and play at five percent.

No "Elite" QB would play knowing he's too hurt to play right. Ben has the talent, but he really needs properly coached on his decision making. Being tough and shaking off some rattling hits on the field...good. Being tough and refusing to sit on the bench when you really should be watching from a wheelchair...bad.

Twentyvalve
12-20-2011, 07:02 AM
Nope, the 49's adjusted and adapted, the Steelers line did not.


a consistently solid oline wouldn't hurt either.. i thought the oline played well in the first half, but they absolutely fell apart in the second half.

3rdandlong
12-20-2011, 07:05 AM
Ben is not an elite QB. I would say he's low on the good scale. Yes, he has a shitty offensive line. But he also misses a lot of throws. How many times des he miss Wallace deep? I don't have confidence that he can make the deep throw, do you? He also forces the ball too many times, resulting in interceptions.

kirklandrules
12-20-2011, 07:07 AM
Big Ben quote this morning...

"It's their call to say yes or no. I'll go out and play at five percent.

No "Elite" QB would play knowing he's too hurt to play right. Ben has the talent, but he really needs properly coached on his decision making. Being tough and shaking off some rattling hits on the field...good. Being tough and refusing to sit on the bench when you really should be watching from a wheelchair...bad.

There are very few "elite" pro athletes that choose not to play. Almost every one has to be told not to play. And if Ben had just sat the pine every time he was hurt, do you know how many games the Steelers would have lost? The guy plays hurt and usually plays well. I think he had a bad game and not sure how much the ankle had to do with it. His two first half picks were the type of picks he's had all year ... throwing into double coverage or overthrowing his receiver.

The good thing in this loss is that Ben's teammate see him, yet again, willing to play no matter how much pain he's in. The only thing better than seeing your leader never give up, is seeing him never give up and winning (which has happened more often than not).

Eztarget
12-20-2011, 07:25 AM
This has to be one of the stupidest posts ever.

Guy wins on guts and has won 2 Superbowls and been to three. Seriously just ask a MOD to delete your account you add nothing here.

TRH
12-20-2011, 07:45 AM
This has to be one of the stupidest posts ever.

Guy wins on guts and has won 2 Superbowls and been to three. Seriously just ask a MOD to delete your account you add nothing here.


+ 1.
I'm losing additional brain cells continuing to read posts from morons.

vinny600
12-20-2011, 08:15 AM
This has to be one of the stupidest posts ever.


I totally agree. After all Ben has accomplished how can any sane individual ask this question. 30 other quarterbacks in this league would play far worse than Ben behind this O-line (Aaron Rogers the exception, but I don't think he'd be as good as Ben). There is not another QB that could take the beating he takes and still succeed. I mentioned Rogers because he is elusive like Ben but I don't think he would survive as long as Ben has. And I mean success in the broad perspective, not talking about last night. If they ever gave Ben some protection he would be scary good IMO,

StylCurtainXL
12-20-2011, 10:58 AM
Big Ben quote this morning...

"It's their call to say yes or no. I'll go out and play at five percent.

No "Elite" QB would play knowing he's too hurt to play right. Ben has the talent, but he really needs properly coached on his decision making. Being tough and shaking off some rattling hits on the field...good. Being tough and refusing to sit on the bench when you really should be watching from a wheelchair...bad.

Bullcrap, every great QB wants be on the field. That is just sheer bull. I can't see any of those others saying, 'nah I think I'll just rest here on the bench, good luck guys!'

Darkstorm05
12-20-2011, 12:15 PM
Bullcrap, every great QB wants be on the field. That is just sheer bull. I can't see any of those others saying, 'nah I think I'll just rest here on the bench, good luck guys!'


Where's Manning at these days? He opted to get healthy and throw in the towel on the season for the long term good of his own health, and the team. Manning 100% next year was more important to them than 75% of Manning trying to etch out some wins this season. The Colts have been getting hammered without him, but he's doing what he thought best, and getting healthy.

When Brady had a partial ACL/MCL tear in the pre-season, they immediately placed him on IR, no questions asked. They never officially stated just how bad it was, but maybe he could have made it back in time for seasons end. Maybe by the playoffs, at least if it was just a partial. But 100% Brady for the next season was deemed more important than risking him on the field.

When the NFC championship game was on the line, what was this guy doing?

http://moretalk.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/nfc-championship-foot_heyb.jpg?w=512&h=425

Whodis
12-20-2011, 12:39 PM
So are we comparing the Ben that can't walk? Holy shit, he hasn't had a 100 yd rusher in how long? The category he's in sucks! Here is my opinion.... When the game is on the line, there is no one I want more then Ben. The last time I checked the AFC North has quite a few teams in the top on defense.

4xSBChamps
12-20-2011, 01:57 PM
when you watch him play, it's hard to compare him to the all-time greats, or even today's 'fantasy-stat' driven pass-n-tab QBs, because he isn't about numbers, except W's:
at the bare-minimum, he is a very-good QB who is best when the game matters, with the ability to extend plays which result in long gains via pass (not by running, ala Vick or Tebow), and he has an incredibly high threshold of pain, which makes all the other players in the huddle better

his style is almost in it's own category (against his contemporaries), and he would've fit-in perfectly in the 1960's & 1970's

stb_steeler
12-20-2011, 02:34 PM
Bullcrap, every great QB wants be on the field. That is just sheer bull. I can't see any of those others saying, 'nah I think I'll just rest here on the bench, good luck guys!'

Ahh Cutler ring a bell?

theplatypus
12-20-2011, 03:09 PM
Ahh Cutler ring a bell?


Torn MCL ring a bell?

4xSBChamps
12-20-2011, 03:14 PM
the fact that the words 'great QB' and 'Cutler' are mentioned in the same sentence proves the watered-down quality of today's NFL field-generals, and alerts me to sell my stocks

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y272/Glensgages/TV%20shows/Fonziejumpingtheshark.jpg

then end is near!!!

Bayz101
12-20-2011, 11:26 PM
the fact that the words 'great QB' and 'Cutler' are mentioned in the same sentence proves the watered-down quality of today's NFL field-generals, and alerts me to sell my stocks

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y272/Glensgages/TV%20shows/Fonziejumpingtheshark.jpg

then end is near!!!

:chuckle:

OX1947
12-20-2011, 11:49 PM
Big Ben is an elite QB who sometimes plays like Tony Romo.

pitt0wns
12-21-2011, 12:04 AM
Big Ben is in the top 5

He is never 100% which sucks - always injured.

Riddle_Of_Steel
12-21-2011, 12:34 AM
Nice double-post....

[removed]

Riddle_Of_Steel
12-21-2011, 12:36 AM
Okay, time to squash this brainless thread flat once and for all....

stb, but i bet most threads are either the two polar ends. ben's best game this season against the pats and we still only scored in the early 20s. how many points do u believe brees or rodgers would have score were they inserted in that game? that's all i'm saying.

Neither Brees nor Rodgers would have made it through the first half of the game.

For years now, we have been hearing this myth about how the sacks are Ben's fault and that a pure pocket passer like Brady or Brees (who was nothing during his time in SD) would take this team to the moon.

So.....lets see how some other passers have faired behind our Oline the last few years, shall we?

* Charlie Batch managed to survive for ONE SINGLE PLAY behind our Oline in 2009 when he had to replace Ben during that KC overtime loss and them left with a broken wrist and IR for the rest of the season.

* Keep in mind as well, Charlie Batch also spent some time on IR in 2007, not coincidentally, playing behind that same Steelers Oline again. I don't recall what it was that time-- a neck injury I think.

* Byron Leftoversandwich has yet to survive 4 quarters of preseason football behind our Oline. In two preseasons behind our pass protection, he landed hisself on IR by the end of preseason week 2 both times.

* Dennis Dixon lasted a whole whopping 2 games behind our Oline before he ended up on IR in 2010. And keep in mind-- his scrambling ability was supposed to be one of his strong selling points....

Big Ben is the ONLY NFL QB that stands a chance of not only surviving, but thriving behind the mess we call an offensive line.

In all of Brees, Rodgers, and Manning's SB wins, they were never supported by any less than the 12th ranked run game and three of the league's best protection schemes. Ben was supported by the worst Oline and 23rd ranked run game when we won SB XLIII.

He is also the ONLY NFL QB that would have the guts and the moxy to come out and play a game on a broken foot, broken thumb, high ankle sprain, concussion, etc.

I rest my case. No further comments, your honor....

Bayz101
12-21-2011, 01:36 AM
Okay, time to squash this brainless thread flat once and for all....

stb, but i bet most threads are either the two polar ends. ben's best game this season against the pats and we still only scored in the early 20s. how many points do u believe brees or rodgers would have score were they inserted in that game? that's all i'm saying.

Neither Brees nor Rodgers would have made it through the first half of the game.

For years now, we have been hearing this myth about how the sacks are Ben's fault and that a pure pocket passer like Brady or Brees (who was nothing during his time in SD) would take this team to the moon.

So.....lets see how some other passers have faired behind our Oline the last few years, shall we?

* Charlie Batch managed to survive for ONE SINGLE PLAY behind our Oline in 2009 when he had to replace Ben during that KC overtime loss and them left with a broken wrist and IR for the rest of the season.

* Keep in mind as well, Charlie Batch also spent some time on IR in 2007, not coincidentally, playing behind that same Steelers Oline again. I don't recall what it was that time-- a neck injury I think.

* Byron Leftoversandwich has yet to survive 4 quarters of preseason football behind our Oline. In two preseasons behind our pass protection, he landed hisself on IR by the end of preseason week 2 both times.

* Dennis Dixon lasted a whole whopping 2 games behind our Oline before he ended up on IR in 2010. And keep in mind-- his scrambling ability was supposed to be one of his strong selling points....

Big Ben is the ONLY NFL QB that stands a chance of not only surviving, but thriving behind the mess we call an offensive line.

In all of Brees, Rodgers, and Manning's SB wins, they were never supported by any less than the 12th ranked run game and three of the league's best protection schemes. Ben was supported by the worst Oline and 23rd ranked run game when we won SB XLIII.

He is also the ONLY NFL QB that would have the guts and the moxy to come out and play a game on a broken foot, broken thumb, high ankle sprain, concussion, etc.

I rest my case. No further comments, your honor....

Court adjourned :smashy:

plenewken
12-21-2011, 05:48 AM
In all of Brees, Rodgers, and Manning's SB wins, they were never supported by any less than the 12th ranked run game and three of the league's best protection schemes. Ben was supported by the worst Oline and 23rd ranked run game when we won SB XLIII.

He is also the ONLY NFL QB that would have the guts and the moxy to come out and play a game on a broken foot, broken thumb, high ankle sprain, concussion, etc.

I rest my case. No further comments, your honor....

Ben's 3 Superbowl games didn't convince me that he capable of making a difference on his own in the big games. The 3 QBs he faced had much higher numbers.

He was putrid against Seattle and he certainly did everything he could to lose the game.
Against the Cardinals, let's just say he did was he was supposed to do at the end but he wasn't stellar either.
His last Superbowl against GB was far from being convincing against an average defense.

I don't think Ben will ever be MVP in a Superbowl.

I don't care if he has the guts to play injured, what matters is the result and Monday night, he was incapable of playing the way he plays. There are no points for bravery in football.

Bottom line, he's the #5 QB in the league but clearly the 4 ahead of him (Rodgers, Brady, Brees and P. Manning) are more exciting to watch and more productive too.

Hines0wnz
12-21-2011, 11:21 AM
ben's overall numbers are good but not great. O production is still in the low 20s (ppg) when ben was playing great. i'm just not buying elite.



You dont need to light up the scoreboard when you have a dominant defense.

Brady and Rodgers have elite numbers because their offense masks their respective teams' league low defenses.

Sorry, but numbers alone do not equal elite. I'd consider Eli Manning elite because of the mess his team is and he still puts up very good numbers. If the Giants D would show up more often he probably wouldnt be asked to throw so much and have less INTs.

Hines0wnz
12-21-2011, 11:23 AM
Bottom line, he's the #5 QB in the league but clearly the 4 ahead of him (Rodgers, Brady, Brees and P. Manning) are more exciting to watch and more productive too.

You must be a FF fanboy.

theplatypus
12-21-2011, 11:37 AM
Okay, time to squash this brainless thread flat once and for all....

stb, but i bet most threads are either the two polar ends. ben's best game this season against the pats and we still only scored in the early 20s. how many points do u believe brees or rodgers would have score were they inserted in that game? that's all i'm saying.

Neither Brees nor Rodgers would have made it through the first half of the game.

For years now, we have been hearing this myth about how the sacks are Ben's fault and that a pure pocket passer like Brady or Brees (who was nothing during his time in SD) would take this team to the moon.

So.....lets see how some other passers have faired behind our Oline the last few years, shall we?

* Charlie Batch managed to survive for ONE SINGLE PLAY behind our Oline in 2009 when he had to replace Ben during that KC overtime loss and them left with a broken wrist and IR for the rest of the season.

* Keep in mind as well, Charlie Batch also spent some time on IR in 2007, not coincidentally, playing behind that same Steelers Oline again. I don't recall what it was that time-- a neck injury I think.

* Byron Leftoversandwich has yet to survive 4 quarters of preseason football behind our Oline. In two preseasons behind our pass protection, he landed hisself on IR by the end of preseason week 2 both times.

* Dennis Dixon lasted a whole whopping 2 games behind our Oline before he ended up on IR in 2010. And keep in mind-- his scrambling ability was supposed to be one of his strong selling points....

Big Ben is the ONLY NFL QB that stands a chance of not only surviving, but thriving behind the mess we call an offensive line.

In all of Brees, Rodgers, and Manning's SB wins, they were never supported by any less than the 12th ranked run game and three of the league's best protection schemes. Ben was supported by the worst Oline and 23rd ranked run game when we won SB XLIII.

He is also the ONLY NFL QB that would have the guts and the moxy to come out and play a game on a broken foot, broken thumb, high ankle sprain, concussion, etc.

I rest my case. No further comments, your honor....

You're leaving out the one major thing the elite quarterbacks do and Ben does not, GET RID OF THE FOOTBALL. Even Alex freaking Smith was getting rid of the ball in ~3 seconds while our own hobbled #7 was hanging onto the ball, doing pump fakes, and forcing the ball. You would think after 8 years as a starter he wouldn't be making the same rookie mistakes like we saw on Monday.

pete74
12-21-2011, 12:13 PM
my views are Ben is a great QB. i dont consider him as good as Rodgers, Brady, Manning and Brees but he is close. everyone talks about his oline and yes they do suck but Rodgers played behind one just as bad last year as did other Qb's on my list in years prior. Ben is freaking awesome but he's a different Qb then the Aaron Rodger types. all that matters to me is that he wins us games and he does exactly that so end of story

Darkstorm05
12-21-2011, 12:42 PM
The whole thing is also a big matter of perspective. IMO, the current crop of NFL QBs isn't so hot. Realistically, the only "Elite" ones are Brady, Manning and "Whoever won last years SB". Everyone was big on Brees after their SB, but what has he done lately? Rodgers is "It" this year, but what has he really done? 2 good seasons, then a SB win, and he's "Elite"? No thanks. Lets see where he is in 5 years first.

Out of that bunch, Manning and Brady are in decline. Who comes next? Rivers, Eli, etc? Major drop off in talent. IMO, Ben would be up there if he had been coached well in years past. He's too set in his ways to make the leap now, though. Someone should have explained to him the difference between scrambling to extend a play, and eating a sack on a hopeless down. The two don't have to come in a package set. Early on he should have tasted the bench when he bucked the system on this. I think he would be well beyond great if he had been developed that way.

But now it is what it is. Yes, he's a great QB...the best Steelers QB since Bradshaw...no arguing against it. I'm glad to have him on the team, but this "Nobody else could play behind our line so he must be the best ever" business doesn't hold water, either. If you take healthy Manning and healthy Ben and plug them into each of the other 31 teams for a game, Manning is going to lift his teams higher. That takes nothing away from Ben or what he does for our team... when he's healthy, anyway.

pete74
12-21-2011, 01:51 PM
The whole thing is also a big matter of perspective. IMO, the current crop of NFL QBs isn't so hot. Realistically, the only "Elite" ones are Brady, Manning and "Whoever won last years SB". Everyone was big on Brees after their SB, but what has he done lately? Rodgers is "It" this year, but what has he really done? 2 good seasons, then a SB win, and he's "Elite"? No thanks. Lets see where he is in 5 years first.

Out of that bunch, Manning and Brady are in decline. Who comes next? Rivers, Eli, etc? Major drop off in talent. IMO, Ben would be up there if he had been coached well in years past. He's too set in his ways to make the leap now, though. Someone should have explained to him the difference between scrambling to extend a play, and eating a sack on a hopeless down. The two don't have to come in a package set. Early on he should have tasted the bench when he bucked the system on this. I think he would be well beyond great if he had been developed that way.

But now it is what it is. Yes, he's a great QB...the best Steelers QB since Bradshaw...no arguing against it. I'm glad to have him on the team, but this "Nobody else could play behind our line so he must be the best ever" business doesn't hold water, either. If you take healthy Manning and healthy Ben and plug them into each of the other 31 teams for a game, Manning is going to lift his teams higher. That takes nothing away from Ben or what he does for our team... when he's healthy, anyway.

what has Brees done lately? do you watch football? he is on pace to crush Marino's passing record. Ben has 3856 yards this season with 21td's and 14int's. Brees has 4780 yards with 37td's and 11int's. he also has a 11-3 record. im not comparing but i cant say how you can say brees hasnt done anything
as for rodgers he has the higest qb rating ever thru his carear. no qb has ever started with such a high rating. he is the best of the best in my mind

Hines0wnz
12-21-2011, 02:13 PM
You're leaving out the one major thing the elite quarterbacks do and Ben does not, GET RID OF THE FOOTBALL. Even Alex freaking Smith was getting rid of the ball in ~3 seconds while our own hobbled #7 was hanging onto the ball, doing pump fakes, and forcing the ball. You would think after 8 years as a starter he wouldn't be making the same rookie mistakes like we saw on Monday.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_urdfNnOw5M/TfRxQACTRJI/AAAAAAAAAFc/LuPlWjXvxP0/s1600/1307865286832.jpg

Tim Tebow and Kyle Orton are elite now ? :thumbsup:

FanSince72
12-21-2011, 02:15 PM
The whole thing is also a big matter of perspective. IMO, the current crop of NFL QBs isn't so hot. Realistically, the only "Elite" ones are Brady, Manning and "Whoever won last years SB". Everyone was big on Brees after their SB, but what has he done lately? Rodgers is "It" this year, but what has he really done? 2 good seasons, then a SB win, and he's "Elite"? No thanks. Lets see where he is in 5 years first.

Out of that bunch, Manning and Brady are in decline. Who comes next? Rivers, Eli, etc? Major drop off in talent. IMO, Ben would be up there if he had been coached well in years past. He's too set in his ways to make the leap now, though. Someone should have explained to him the difference between scrambling to extend a play, and eating a sack on a hopeless down. The two don't have to come in a package set. Early on he should have tasted the bench when he bucked the system on this. I think he would be well beyond great if he had been developed that way.

But now it is what it is. Yes, he's a great QB...the best Steelers QB since Bradshaw...no arguing against it. I'm glad to have him on the team, but this "Nobody else could play behind our line so he must be the best ever" business doesn't hold water, either. If you take healthy Manning and healthy Ben and plug them into each of the other 31 teams for a game, Manning is going to lift his teams higher. That takes nothing away from Ben or what he does for our team... when he's healthy, anyway.


You raise some good points and I agree with much of what you wrote.

I think that if you're talking about "elite" in terms of stats and records, then Brady has to top that list because he has the hardware to go with it. Manning, Brees and Rodgers each have 1 SB win and right now that puts them all in the "even-a-blind-squirrel-finds-an-acorn" category.

As far as Ben goes, he really doesn't have a category. He's a one-off and is unique to this team and is essentially a sandlot player at heart. He reminds me so much of Bradshaw in that respect because Bradshaw's stats are quite average (even less than that in some cases), but he as well as Ben are gamers and that counts more in my book than a bunch of gaudy numbers.

Manning, Brady, Rodgers and to a lesser extent Brees are all "system players" in that they work well in their respective systems and are called upon to basically oversee those systems. Ben's strength is his imagination and I doubt that he'd work well at all in a system because it would bore him to death. In fact that's what I saw against San Fransisco -- a guy who knew he was limited to being a pocket-passer and was frustrated by the fact that he couldn't move around and have the kind of fun he likes to have.

Some people might prefer a more organized game plan or a specific identity but not me. I like this team the way it is with Ben because he makes the game fun and I never know what to expect. So from an entertainment point of view, Ben doesn't disappoint and there's no one else in the league I'd rather have with the ball (when healthy) with the game on the line and minutes left to go.

Ben may not be "elite" by whatever statistical standards are used these days to describe such things, but I know that I wouldn't trade him for all the stats in the world.

plenewken
12-21-2011, 02:18 PM
You must be a FF fanboy.

No, I can read stats and rankings. Ben is ranked #8 as we speak, with a mediocre 91.5 rating, 21 TD, 14 INT, and 38 sacks.

FanSince72
12-21-2011, 02:21 PM
No, I can read stats and rankings. Ben is ranked #8 as we speak, with a mediocre 91.5 rating, 21 TD, 14 INT, and 38 sacks.

Well, just remember that Bradshaw's career ranking was a shade above 88 and he won 4 Super Bowls in six years.

Which only goes to prove that Mark Twain was right.

Hines0wnz
12-21-2011, 02:26 PM
No, I can read stats and rankings. Ben is ranked #8 as we speak, with a mediocre 91.5 rating, 21 TD, 14 INT, and 38 sacks.

Taking out Brady, Brees and Rodgers....you really think Stafford (no playoff games), Romo (playoff choker), Eli (better than his team record shows) and Phillip Rivers (hot & cold) are better than Ben?

Sorry dude, but being an elite QB is more than sexy stats.

Darkstorm05
12-21-2011, 02:28 PM
what has Brees done lately? do you watch football? he is on pace to crush Marino's passing record. Ben has 3856 yards this season with 21td's and 14int's. Brees has 4780 yards with 37td's and 11int's. he also has a 11-3 record. im not comparing but i cant say how you can say brees hasnt done anything
as for rodgers he has the higest qb rating ever thru his carear. no qb has ever started with such a high rating. he is the best of the best in my mind

Again, what have those stats earned him? A beatdown from the Seahawks? prior to that SB what was he doing? How long was it before the Saints could get out of last place in their division? And really, the point, where's his media coverage last year? If GB doesn't make the SB, do you really think Aaron Rodgers will be all over TV, commercials, etc., next season? Unlikely.

Any given year Brady and Manning are the media stars, plus last years SB winning QB. Yea, Rodgers has had great stats his first few seasons, but lets not punch his HoF card yet. If he stinks it up next year, will he still be the best ever? How about the year after? Just saying he needs to keep it up a few more eyars before he'll deserve the hype.

plenewken
12-21-2011, 02:28 PM
Well, just remember that Bradshaw's career ranking was a shade above 88 and he won 4 Super Bowls in six years.

Which only goes to prove that Mark Twain was right.

Bradshaw would be a back-up by today's standards.

Hines0wnz
12-21-2011, 02:35 PM
as for rodgers he has the higest qb rating ever thru his carear. no qb has ever started with such a high rating. he is the best of the best in my mind


Well heck, let's just cancel the last 2 weeks of the season and playoffs and give Green Bay the trophy then because its obvious no other team deserves to take the same field as Aaron Rodgers. :nw:

theplatypus
12-21-2011, 02:41 PM
Well heck, let's just cancel the last 2 weeks of the season and playoffs and give Green Bay the trophy then because its obvious no other team deserves to take the same field as Aaron Rodgers. :nw:




Oh my lord what a drama queen

4xSBChamps
12-21-2011, 02:47 PM
No, I can read stats and rankings. Ben is ranked #8 as we speak, with a mediocre 91.5 rating, 21 TD, 14 INT, and 38 sacks.

Bradshaw would be a back-up by today's standards.

this reminds me of the opening scene from 'Days of Thunder'

"... Helluva-statistician ya got there, Harry

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y272/Glensgages/movies/DaysofThunder-pit-road.jpg

... he know ANYTHING about quarterbacks?"

plenewken
12-21-2011, 02:48 PM
Taking out Brady, Brees and Rodgers....you really think Stafford (no playoff games), Romo (playoff choker), Eli (better than his team record shows) and Phillip Rivers (hot & cold) are better than Ben?

Sorry dude, but being an elite QB is more than sexy stats.

Dude, I'm just telling you what the rankings are. You don't like it, fine, but that's the way it is.
Being a QB is also putting points on the board with his offense and he's not getting it done, despite having arguably one of the best group of WRs in the league.

As for Rodgers vs. Ben, that's for Darkstorm, Rodgers is head and shoulders above everyone now and he also outplayed Ben in the Superbowl, despite a lack of experience in big games.
The guy is also sacked very often, almost as often as Ben, but he also scores more TDs than Ben, almost twice as much and he doesn't have Ben's group of receivers.
Ben has had great years, like #2 in 2007 and #3 in 2005, but he also stunk up the joint with #21 in 2006 and #24 in 2008.
#5 is very good IMO, nothing to be ashamed of.
Sorry for not drinking the Roethlisberger kool-aid, but I don't like the way he's been playing since Arians became OC.

Darkstorm05
12-21-2011, 02:55 PM
As for Rodgers vs. Ben, that's for Darkstorm, Rodgers is head and shoulders above everyone now and he also outplayed Ben in the Superbowl, despite a lack of experience in big games.



None of that is in question...key being, "now". If Brady has an off season and tanks a year into the crapper, nobody is going to mind as he's put up enough victory in the past decade to smooth a bump like that over. If Rodgers tanks a single season right now...well, that's a full quarter of his career to this point. Ever see clips of a horse biting it on the stretch in a big race? Check Youtube if not. Nobody throws that horse a parade because he rocked all contenders on the first two turns. When Rodgers has at least another 3 full seasons sticking to the trend he sets now, then I'll move him up a few pegs.

Hines0wnz
12-21-2011, 02:56 PM
Oh my lord what a drama queen

I'm not the one defending other teams' QBs against ours but if you need to call me names to defend your position so be it. But you need to own the fact you want to leg hump Rodgers, Brady or Brees. http://www.discussanything.com/forums/images/smilies/leghump.gif

Hines0wnz
12-21-2011, 03:12 PM
Dude, I'm just telling you what the rankings are. You don't like it, fine, but that's the way it is.
Being a QB is also putting points on the board with his offense and he's not getting it done, despite having arguably one of the best group of WRs in the league.

I dont care as much about stats except for 1: wins. And there is only ONE starting QB with a higher winning% than Ben right now, its Tom Brady. And all-time, only 3 QBs rank above him as far as winning%: Montana, Staubach and Brady. Pretty lofty company if you ask me. Dont get me wrong though (I'm not a Big Ben kool-aid drinker either), Ben frustrates me too but that is who he is and until you accept that is who he is then you will continue to have this issue of QB envy. I dont have it because I think Ben is the perfect QB for this team.

plenewken
12-22-2011, 06:40 AM
I dont care as much about stats except for 1: wins. And there is only ONE starting QB with a higher winning% than Ben right now, its Tom Brady. And all-time, only 3 QBs rank above him as far as winning%: Montana, Staubach and Brady. Pretty lofty company if you ask me. Dont get me wrong though (I'm not a Big Ben kool-aid drinker either), Ben frustrates me too but that is who he is and until you accept that is who he is then you will continue to have this issue of QB envy. I dont have it because I think Ben is the perfect QB for this team.

What you said makes perfect sense. I guess my frustration with Ben has more to do with the fact that his winning % has more to do with the Steelers defense than his ability to secure the W when he's on the field.
I know, it's not only him, and it's also the OC, the OL, the RB, the WRs etc..... but he's paid very big bucks to get the job done and very objectively, I don't see $100M worth of offensive points and Wow factor out of the guy.
I'm also a hockey fan and I will spare you the comparison between Ben and the Penguins superstars in terms of individual contribution.
Take it easy.

LayingTheWoodley56
12-22-2011, 10:33 AM
It's hard to quantify Ben. Does he light up teams routinely for 400 yards and 4 touchdowns, a la Rodgers, Brees and Brady? To be honest, no he does not. He has had his games like that over the years, but he's not a gimme to put up huge numbers against inferior opponents (like his 200-yard day vs. the Jags this year.) He is definitely capable of having bad games, and y'all can put that on Arians as much as you want. That being said, there is not a QB in the league I would take over him, and I mean that. People want to judge you on your rings if you have zero (look at Marino), but if you have a couple of them behind good defenses and good teams that gets brushed off to the side and they focus on all the things that you don't do. Ben is a top 5 quarterback in this league, without a doubt, he has led us to three Super Bowls with two victories, and he plays just about every Sunday for the past 8 years if he is capable of walking and throwing. His career is filled with iconic moments. I am actually going to start a thread right now listing them.

Hines0wnz
12-22-2011, 11:41 AM
What you said makes perfect sense. I guess my frustration with Ben has more to do with the fact that his winning % has more to do with the Steelers defense than his ability to secure the W when he's on the field.
I know, it's not only him, and it's also the OC, the OL, the RB, the WRs etc..... but he's paid very big bucks to get the job done and very objectively, I don't see $100M worth of offensive points and Wow factor out of the guy.


Okay, now we are seeing more or less eye to eye.

The identity of the Steelers has always been defense since their dominate era in the 1970s and it will never change. Because of that, the offense does not need to be dynamic because typically the D will set up the O to have easy scores or at least opportunity for easy scores. To be honest, with such a consistently good D, I'm not certain that Rodgers, Brees, Brady or the Mannings would have much better numbers than Ben if they were the Steelers' starting QB. Those guys are asked to do more because their teams' D cant defend against 7th grade cheerleaders!

There are many Steeler fans with Jeromis Bettis/Cowher hangovers of power running and great defense but that is not who this team is anymore. Those Cowher teams had average QBs at best. How do you make up for an average QB? You have a punishing running game and play lights out defense. Now that is no longer the norm. We have a great QB and a great D so the balance of the offense has shifted because the skill set of the QB has changed. Why else draft Wallace, Sanders and Brown if there is no confidence in Ben's abilities to throw? Just need to keep him from getting pounded which is a combination of his desire to make a play and an average at best O-line.

The best point I can make about Ben is the game against the Patsies this year. He was asked to dink n dunk ala Brady to control the clock and move the ball. He did it and it was a dream to watch. :thumbsup: