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View Full Version : Why Big Beg Isn't given Elite Status


BlaZeQuietly
12-31-2011, 01:28 AM
By now we all know who the elite QBs are

RODGES
BREES
BRADY

in that order, and P. Manning if he's playing.

Big Ben is put on the level as Romo, Eli and Rivers.

I don't necessarily disagree with that analogy.
Every time Big Ben looks like he could join the Elite club he slips up.
Yeah he has 2 rings, which is more than rogers, and more than Breese and more than Manning. He just doesn't put up the numbers though. He turns the ball over to often and has those bad games, for instance last years superbowl. He really hasn't lived up to his Mr. Clutch label lately. Don't get me wrong, I love watching him play, hes my favorite player in all of sports, but he's just not elite status and never will be, luckily the steelers don't need him to be because they actually have a defense, and some other big play makers.

Sixburgher
12-31-2011, 01:47 AM
He turns the ball over to often and has those bad games, for instance last years superbowl. He really hasn't lived up to his Mr. Clutch label lately.

And when's the last time Brady lived up to the "elite" and "clutch" labels that have been ascribed to him in a postseason game? It's been a while. QUITE a while.

OX1947
12-31-2011, 01:59 AM
Had Big Ben won last February, he would have been a first ballot hall of famer. So, if Big Ben wins one more super bowl, Hall of Fame is bigger then Elite. Not a chance a 3 time SB winning starting QB isnt a first ballot hall of famer.

BlaZeQuietly
12-31-2011, 02:02 AM
Brady 36 TD 11 INT
Roethlisberger 21TD 14 INT

Brady 4,897 passing yards
Roethlisberger 3,865 passing yards



Mathew Stafford 36 TD 14 INT 4,518 passing yards

Brady, yeah not so clutch, but the stats say it all.

BIG BEN is a GREAT Quarterback and fits in great with the steelers, but he is NOT elite and unfortunately I don't think hes going to be around as long as brady breese or rodgers because ben relies on running around and extending plays and he takes a lot of big hits, as he gets older hes not going to be able to do that,
these other guys are pocket passers, they get rid of the ball fast, and they can keep playing with that style for a long time, Ben, as good as he is will probably only be our QB for another 5 years unless he can change the way he plays, which he won't. I think he has another SB or 2 in him though.

PhantomJB93
12-31-2011, 02:08 AM
Stafford and Brady are really bad comparisons, at least stat wise. They can both easily throw 50 passes a game just because of their offensive schemes. Ben is lucky to throw 30. More passes=more yards=more TDs.

And I agree as a strict passer Ben isn't on their level, but his play-extending ability is what puts him there. Not many can do what he can and it more than makes up for his lack of stats/laser accuracy. Ben is like a top 7-8 pocket passer but a top 5 overall QB easy. There's more to the position now than just standing back and throwing a perfect pass from the pocket in under 3 seconds.

Sixburgher
12-31-2011, 02:09 AM
Brady 36 TD 11 INT
Roethlisberger 21TD 14 INT

Brady 4,897 passing yards
Roethlisberger 3,865 passing yards



Mathew Stafford 36 TD 14 INT 4,518 passing yards

Brady, yeah not so clutch, but the stats say it all.

BIG BEN is a GREAT Quarterback and fits in great with the steelers, but he is NOT elite and unfortunately I don't think hes going to be around as long as brady breese or rodgers because ben relies on running around and extending plays and he takes a lot of big hits, as he gets older hes not going to be able to do that,
these other guys are pocket passers, they get rid of the ball fast, and they can keep playing with that style for a long time, Ben, as good as he is will probably only be our QB for another 5 years unless he can change the way he plays, which he won't. I think he has another SB or 2 in him though.

And Roethlisberger has 100+ fewer attempts than both Brady and Stafford . Statistics are misleading unless you look at the entire picture. Elway stuck around for 16 seasons playing a very similar style to the way Roethlisberger plays.

tony hipchest
12-31-2011, 02:14 AM
"elite" is nothing more than a catchphrase popularized in conjunction with the rise of fantasy football.

back in the day there were 3, maybe 4, elite qb's every decade. nowadays theres a new qb crowned as elite every single year.

hell, p. rivers and m. vick have gone from elite to non-elite, back to elite again, in a single year.

BlaZeQuietly
12-31-2011, 02:19 AM
"elite" is nothing more than a catchphrase popularized in conjunction with the rise of fantasy football.

back in the day there were 3, maybe 4, elite qb's every decade. nowadays theres a new qb crowned as elite every single year.

hell, p. rivers and m. vick have gone from elite to non-elite, back to elite again, in a single year.

Kind of makes me wonder if some of these people are taking performance enhancing substances, the NFL currently does not test for them I don't think. This whole 3 people having a shot at Marios record reminds me of McGwire, Sosa and Bonds all crushing the HR record around the same time, turns out they were all on rhoids. I know a lot of the "year of the QB" thing has to do with the new rules, but really, looks at some of these players, they look like john cena.

tony hipchest
12-31-2011, 02:29 AM
tom brady is definitely on 'rhoids. he's so puckered up and constantly on the" injury" report, the Tucks rule was named after him.

Bayz101
12-31-2011, 02:41 AM
Your numbers can be through the roof, but the rings are all that matters.

Danny136200
12-31-2011, 02:50 AM
Kind of makes me wonder if some of these people are taking performance enhancing substances, the NFL currently does not test for them I don't think. This whole 3 people having a shot at Marios record reminds me of McGwire, Sosa and Bonds all crushing the HR record around the same time, turns out they were all on rhoids. I know a lot of the "year of the QB" thing has to do with the new rules, but really, looks at some of these players, they look like john cena.

I do not think that many of the top players are taking PEDs in my opinion. I do believe that this whole chasing of Marino's record is just a change in the philosophy of the game that started this decade. Teams are just passing it more and teams have more capable QBs that can throw the ball effectively. What Marino did was simply AMAZING given when he did it. Now, i am just surprised that Brees did not break the record three years ago ( I do believe he was about 15 yards short of the record that year). Add that to the rule changes that have come in the past 10 years favoring the passing offense, and you will see that is entirely capable that three players have a shot of passing marino. But what Marino did should never be discounted; over 5,000 yards passing back then? Before I was even born? I just imagine what he will be like if he was playing in this day and age.

jjpro11
12-31-2011, 04:14 AM
they're putting up video game-like stats all because of the rules.. that doesn't mean they aren't great QBs.. these guys are doing it better than their peers who play with the same set of rules... but the numbers are inflated even more so because of the rules.. by the end of the decade, when Goodell makes it illegal for QBs to be hit at all and receivers to be hit until they come down with the football and make a football move, the stats of today will pale in comparison.

BLACK_AND_YELLOW
12-31-2011, 05:37 AM
last time i check those Elite Qbs you wrote down are not running for there life every sunday if Ben had a great line or just a GOOD line he would be doing great and no QB is on top of there game if there not atleast 90% and last time i check he still one of the best clutch QBs in the NFL cause how has Tom Brady been doing in the postseason lately??? cause Tom has not done noting in the post season since Big Ben came in the NFL thats a fact and Numbers Dont mean Noting cause ill take WINS over numbers.

Please Someone Remove This Pointless Thread lol

#1LambertFan
12-31-2011, 07:53 AM
Brady 36 TD 11 INT
Roethlisberger 21TD 14 INT

Brady 4,897 passing yards
Roethlisberger 3,865 passing yards



Mathew Stafford 36 TD 14 INT 4,518 passing yards

Brady, yeah not so clutch, but the stats say it all.

BIG BEN is a GREAT Quarterback and fits in great with the steelers, but he is NOT elite and unfortunately I don't think hes going to be around as long as brady breese or rodgers because ben relies on running around and extending plays and he takes a lot of big hits, as he gets older hes not going to be able to do that,
these other guys are pocket passers, they get rid of the ball fast, and they can keep playing with that style for a long time, Ben, as good as he is will probably only be our QB for another 5 years unless he can change the way he plays, which he won't. I think he has another SB or 2 in him though.

Look to the Titans or Patriots game for pocket Ben. He can play that style just as well as those "elite" QB's and a few years down the line he may be forced to do that later in his career and maybe he will then be considered a part of that group

steelfury02
12-31-2011, 08:16 AM
pretty good chance Brees or Rodgers might tie Ben with # of SB rings - just hope it isn't against us

at this point, with this group of guys - I think I'd rather lose in the playoffs then make it to the SB and lose again

If we want #7 - by the love of everyone holy we need to get all hands on deck and have an offense that scores in the red zone (and I think at this time - at least kills the clock, keeps the opposing QB on the sidelines and does NOT TURN IT OVER) and get our pass rush back.

Another big concern is what we have drafted for v. what the league is turning in to. I'm not going to speculate too much on this because our Steelers are known draft gurus - and I tend to like/appreciate 75% of the guys they pick up. - but I think on defense, Timmons and the Farrior/Foote group are the biggest liability. Timmons is a solid starter - but look what he is asked to do on a regular basis now and look how gassed we look at the opposite backer - they are having to drop back and cover 15 - 20 yards down field more than ever. Clark has even said it - he leads the team in tackles for a reason - the line (obviously injuries and suspensions are a factor, duh) and the next level are not getting the push plus what offenses do in general now asks them to do more now than ever.

Go ahead and throw the tomatoes - but to me, if Timmons wants to become more valuable - he needs to learn to play outside - especially with Harrison's age / issues and Woodley being a slow starter. We need him to be a utility guy IMHO and I get so tired of the defense dropping off so significantly when 1 guy is out

harrison'samonster
12-31-2011, 10:10 AM
categorizing players as "elite" really won't get fans too far. Just because one player is put into this group doesn't give him any more worth. And comparing statistics for each player is just a starting point. It's already been mentioned in this thread, stats can be misleading especially if your not looking at the whole picture.

In reality, Roethlisberger has been as good or better than the other quarterbacks with the "elite" status.

Curtain_of_Steel
12-31-2011, 10:43 AM
Ben is on the level of Romo? LOL

When was the last time you seen Ben choke it up on anything?

You guys are so worried about status's your life must be full of phony crap. He won't 2 SB's, and was in a 3rd. Most years we ar ein the playoffs thanks to Ben and he competes for a probowl spot.
You mention Manning? Sat out all year with an injured neck? That he got from what? Sleeping on a bad pillow?
Mannings attitude was one of the worse cry babies up till the day after we beat him in the AFC championchip game when he came out and blamed his OLINE. After that interveiw hie daddy and agent grabbed him around the sack and straighten him out and he overnight grew Bens attitude towards his players, and started shouldering the blame as opposed to finger pointing. Manning is only elite because they molded him and he puts up big numbers. Those days are gone, as no matter what happens, his WR's are aged, and if he gets traded, no one has an OLINE to protect him. He won't last. Hopefully the Jets trade for him, that would be a great ending to that organization and Rex Ryan, not to mention putting out Sanchez to the streets.

Who cares about elite status, show me the rings.

Ben has amassed Steeler records in a short career that has 5-7 plus years at least left. He will continually be a 3800 plus yard passer. Hopefully add another SB or 2. Luckily the AFC shows no sign of gaining in strenght, and that means we should remain near the top each year. Flacco will resign with the Ravens, securing the choker will forever hold that team down.

skinart82
12-31-2011, 11:04 AM
You can have your "elite," I'll take Ben!

Bill Cowher's Jaw
12-31-2011, 12:29 PM
Ben is sorta on the fence of this "elite or not elite" bullshit that everybody loves to talk about. He's kinda in his own group. I'd group the QBs like this:

The Elite
Rodgers
Brees
Brady

Sometimes Elite But Sometimes Will Cause You To Rip Your Hair Out Of Your Head
Ben

Has The Tangible Skills To Be Elite But Lack The Intangibles
Eli
Romo
Rivers

Could Be Elite Someday If They Keep It Up
Stafford
Newton

Will Never Be Elite But Can Be Serviceable
Ryan
Flacco
Vick
Dalton
Alex Smith
Schaub
Freeman
Tebow
Cutler
Cassel
Matt Moore

You're Going Nowhere With These Guys
Sanchez
Fitzpatrick
Kolb
Palmer

You're REALLY Going Nowhere With These Guys
Colt McCoy
Blaine Gabbert
Sam Bradford
Rex Grossman

QCbeauBlak
12-31-2011, 12:40 PM
I think that the way Mike Martz drew up his offense was really a game changer back in the Kurt Warner/Marshall Faulk days. I had never seen so many screens in my life. Notice just how many receiving yards Tomlinson was getting in SD while everyone was saying Rivers was elite (whatever that means). Shoot, Ray Rice accounts for probably a third of Flacco's passing yards. Today a lot of teams are completely replacing the run game with these very effective plays. I'd be curious to see a comparison of the play calls of Brees vs. Marino? Not taking anything away from Brees because good lord, he is great QB. He moves around the pocket so fast and gets the ball out of his hand and on target better than anyone in the game.

StainlessStill
12-31-2011, 01:10 PM
I'm over this retarded conversation anymore. Okay, is Ben elite or not? I'm glad stats and fantasy football junkies go by how many touchdown pass's are thrown and how many interceptions are thrown that make you elite. Take a look at Tom Brady's sitdown interview with Chris Berman tomorrow. He even admits he throws the ball 4 yards and Wes Welker takes it 25 yards downfield, a stat Brady is aware of that adds up in his total yardage.

The way I look at it, Ben has made some unbelievably incredible plays over his career and is simply a menace for defense's to stop. (if you want to talk about yards downfield, Ben is actually one of the best passers EVER in YPA.) He won't put up the numbers that Rodgers or Brady will because he's simply not allowed to just yet, but in the next several seasons, he COULD.

I'm done comparing him to the others. Ben Roethlisberger is elite to the Pittsburgh Steelers. Frankly, that's all I give a shit about.

Stu Pidasso
12-31-2011, 01:11 PM
Frankly, I don't care. It's w's that matter....

Whodis
12-31-2011, 01:32 PM
I know Ben can win games and that says more about a Steeler quarterback then I can say in my lifetime (just missed Bradshaw). I believe he is better with running game and a good OC.

MasterOfPuppets
12-31-2011, 05:52 PM
By now we all know who the elite QBs are

RODGES
BREES
BRADY

in that order, and P. Manning if he's playing.

Big Ben is put on the level as Romo, Eli and Rivers.

I don't necessarily disagree with that analogy.
Every time Big Ben looks like he could join the Elite club he slips up.
Yeah he has 2 rings, which is more than rogers, and more than Breese and more than Manning. He just doesn't put up the numbers though. He turns the ball over to often and has those bad games, for instance last years superbowl. He really hasn't lived up to his Mr. Clutch label lately. Don't get me wrong, I love watching him play, hes my favorite player in all of sports, but he's just not elite status and never will be, luckily the steelers don't need him to be because they actually have a defense, and some other big play makers.
ask yourself this...if you put your "elite" guys in a steeler uniform WITH the shitty olines and WITH arians as OC , would any of them do any better than ben ?
my answer...
brady and manning - HELL NO ..they fold like cheap tents under pressure
brees - doubt he'd be any better
rodgers - maybe. he's played with not so great protection at times.

Bayz101
12-31-2011, 06:04 PM
ask yourself this...if you put your "elite" guys in a steeler uniform WITH the shitty olines and WITH arians as OC , would any of them do any better than ben ?
my answer...
brady and manning - HELL NO ..they fold like cheap tents under pressure
brees - doubt he'd be any better
rodgers - maybe. he's played with not so great protection at times.

Brady and Manning wouldn't last a game. Brees? I highly doubt it. He's barely 6 foot tall he needs all the protection he can get. Rodgers? Maybe. He's a good quarterback who sat behind a legend for a good portion of his career.

sharkweek
12-31-2011, 06:40 PM
Ben has the potential to be elite and put up monster numbers year in and out, he has just never been in an offense that allowed him to be.

whether its 5TD games, 500+ yard games, or even perfect passer rating games, he's had them all, including the super clutch drives to close out games when it counts most

but yeah, whether it was the earlier years with a conservative run-oriented Cowher towards the twilight of his coaching career, or now with an inept Arians, he really has never been "unleashed", at least not for an entire season

I'm hoping that we can maybe see some of his true potential now that we have arguably the best WR crops in the league, but we're still lacking pieces. Again, I have no faith in Arians to be more than just adequate on a regular basis, and our OL on a good day simply is average at best, if not clearly sub-par. Sure, Ben's unwillingness to give up on a play doesn't help, but I'm sure many of his sacks and injuries have been because of that OL

But that being said, I'd rather have a team that wins Superbowls rather than one that lights up the scoreboard only in the regular season. Tom Brady hasn't been winning Supebowls ever since he started having record setting seasons. And for as good as Peyton Manning is, its obvious that he's too much of a piece of the puzzle, and without him the Colts are absolutely dreadful. Its quite obvious that its better to have a complete team than to put all your eggs in the basket that makes the QB look the best.

Bayz101
12-31-2011, 06:58 PM
Ben has the potential to be elite and put up monster numbers year in and out, he has just never been in an offense that allowed him to be.

whether its 5TD games, 500+ yard games, or even perfect passer rating games, he's had them all, including the super clutch drives to close out games when it counts most

but yeah, whether it was the earlier years with a conservative run-oriented Cowher towards the twilight of his coaching career, or now with an inept Arians, he really has never been "unleashed", at least not for an entire season

I'm hoping that we can maybe see some of his true potential now that we have arguably the best WR crops in the league, but we're still lacking pieces. Again, I have no faith in Arians to be more than just adequate on a regular basis, and our OL on a good day simply is average at best, if not clearly sub-par. Sure, Ben's unwillingness to give up on a play doesn't help, but I'm sure many of his sacks and injuries have been because of that OL

But that being said, I'd rather have a team that wins Superbowls rather than one that lights up the scoreboard only in the regular season. Tom Brady hasn't been winning Supebowls ever since he started having record setting seasons. And for as good as Peyton Manning is, its obvious that he's too much of a piece of the puzzle, and without him the Colts are absolutely dreadful. Its quite obvious that its better to have a complete team than to put all your eggs in the basket that makes the QB look the best.

As long as we keep winning rings, i'm sure both parties will be happy. You have to think if this team keeps up it's pace he'll have a fist full of rings by the time he retires, haha. Look at my signature.

steelcity1974
01-01-2012, 02:36 AM
Ben is better than at least 25 other starters. Wtf is elite? Brady, Bree's, Rogers, and manning? Fine...Ben has more rings that three of them. As a fan...who gives a f?

FanSince72
01-01-2012, 10:51 AM
I'm over this retarded conversation anymore. Okay, is Ben elite or not? I'm glad stats and fantasy football junkies go by how many touchdown pass's are thrown and how many interceptions are thrown that make you elite. Take a look at Tom Brady's sitdown interview with Chris Berman tomorrow. He even admits he throws the ball 4 yards and Wes Welker takes it 25 yards downfield, a stat Brady is aware of that adds up in his total yardage.

The way I look at it, Ben has made some unbelievably incredible plays over his career and is simply a menace for defense's to stop. (if you want to talk about yards downfield, Ben is actually one of the best passers EVER in YPA.) He won't put up the numbers that Rodgers or Brady will because he's simply not allowed to just yet, but in the next several seasons, he COULD.

I'm done comparing him to the others. Ben Roethlisberger is elite to the Pittsburgh Steelers. Frankly, that's all I give a shit about.


Thank you! :applaudit:

Ben does not and probably never will have the "stats" that everyone seems so concerned about but so far he's got some hardware and I have no reason to believe there won't be more shoved into the trophy case by the time he hangs it up.

Like I've said before, Bradshaw's "elite" stats suck even worse than Ben's but he (like Ben) got it done when it had to be done and that's all that matters.

4xSBChamps
01-01-2012, 02:00 PM
even in the 'Bradshaw era' 30+ years ago in Steeler history, the team has never-been QB-centric, as-were Staubach's Crygirls, Stabler's Raiders, or-even the he-never-won-anthing/but-he-had-great-stats-doing-it Chargers under Fouts:
today, the way the rules are written, why draft a half-dozen Offensive Linemen, teach them to block in-unison, and practice running-plays until the cows come-home, when you can get 5 sumo-wrestlers, teach them to hold, draft 4 guys who run like the wind unmolested, and have a 6'4" guy chuck the ball downfield, hoping for a catch or a PI call?

for all of the hype, the Steelers are still a defense-first team

because elite-status is given by other people, their opinions, and 'feelings' dictate what they decide, and Roethlisberger's off-field incidents will cloud their judgement, but they can't take-away the fact that he wins games:
considering our Divisional rivals' punishing style of play and the climate the team must play-in 11 of the 16 game season, Roethlisberger's skill-set is the perfect combination for this team

can you really imagine the Steelers playing a West-Coast, pitch-and-catch type game in November or December playing at-home, or in Baltimore, Cleveland, or Cincinnati, with Brees, Marsha, Rogers, or either of the Mannings at the helm?

TRH
01-01-2012, 04:09 PM
I'm over this retarded conversation anymore. Okay, is Ben elite or not? I'm glad stats and fantasy football junkies go by how many touchdown pass's are thrown and how many interceptions are thrown that make you elite. Take a look at Tom Brady's sitdown interview with Chris Berman tomorrow. He even admits he throws the ball 4 yards and Wes Welker takes it 25 yards downfield, a stat Brady is aware of that adds up in his total yardage.

The way I look at it, Ben has made some unbelievably incredible plays over his career and is simply a menace for defense's to stop. (if you want to talk about yards downfield, Ben is actually one of the best passers EVER in YPA.) He won't put up the numbers that Rodgers or Brady will because he's simply not allowed to just yet, but in the next several seasons, he COULD.

I'm done comparing him to the others. Ben Roethlisberger is elite to the Pittsburgh Steelers. Frankly, that's all I give a shit about.

+1.
How MANY times have we seen basically this same exact thread over and over and over? 100? 200? A million? It sure seems like it.
Ben's a premium QB, period.

Kanata-Steeler
01-01-2012, 04:26 PM
WHY ARE THESE "ELITE" THREAD ALWAYS ASKED THOUSANDS OF TIMES HERE ?
i dunno, but I swear it's been answered to death, many different ways.
-yawn.