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SteelerEmpire
01-10-2012, 12:58 AM
Ok A-hole. Your the #1 scientist, so where's your "proff ". 'Definitive proff' that all scientists need before they make a statement ??? Like I thought, you don't have definitive proff. What a joke of an opinion here from such an "esteemed scientist "...

Article:

Physicist Stephen Hawking believes there is no afterlife, and that the concept of heaven is a "fairy story" for people who fear death.

LINK: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-20063168-503543.html?tag=re1.channel

theplatypus
01-10-2012, 04:18 AM
Oh noes Stephen Hawking has an opinion, a belief that's different than yours. Just a heads up you might want to look into just what a theoretical physicist does.

Steelboy84
01-10-2012, 05:01 PM
Oh noes Stephen Hawking has an opinion, a belief that's different than yours. Just a heads up you might want to look into just what a theoretical physicist does.



lmao

SteelerEmpire
01-10-2012, 10:08 PM
Oh noes Stephen Hawking has an opinion, a belief that's different than yours. Just a heads up you might want to look into just what a theoretical physicist does.

Lol. Yes I do... I have a degree in it... lol. I know that the concept of God is basically an "untestable" concept if your for proving it or disproving it. If a theory cannot be tested with experimentation or observation it's "outside" of science. We can only currently observe things and conduct experiments inside the universe. But God is said to have created the universe and therefore can exist outside of the universe. Since he's outside of the universe, he cannot be observed, and is therefore outside of physics as we know it. I'm familiar with the details of Hawkings particular theory here and it attempts to measure what cannot be measured.... but he makes a nice try though.

ricardisimo
01-11-2012, 03:18 AM
I like that he put to rest once and for all this widely circulated theory from the religious folks that he was a believer. You can all stop with that nonsense now.

Where's his "proff"? Did you really just ask where his proof is? No... I mean, really? :huh:?

Just curious: How do you know that god is outside of the universe?

hicksfan
01-11-2012, 11:19 AM
Lol. Yes I do... I have a degree in it... lol. I know that the concept of God is basically an "untestable" concept if your for proving it or disproving it. If a theory cannot be tested with experimentation or observation it's "outside" of science. We can only currently observe things and conduct experiments inside the universe. But God is said to have created the universe and therefore can exist outside of the universe. Since he's outside of the universe, he cannot be observed, and is therefore outside of physics as we know it. I'm familiar with the details of Hawkings particular theory here and it attempts to measure what cannot be measured.... but he makes a nice try though.

how does that logic not apply to the flying spaghetti monster as well?

A God who kept tinkering with the universe was absurd; a God who interfered with human freedom and creativity was tyrant. If God is seen as a self in a world of his own, an ego that relates to a thought, a cause separate from its effect. he becomes a being, not Being itself. An omnipotent, all‐knowing tyrant is not so different from earthly dictators who make everything and everybody mere cogs in the machine which they controlled. An atheism that rejects such a God is amply justified. – Karen Armstrong


the burden of proof falls upon the believer. simple enough.

BleedPurple
01-11-2012, 04:51 PM
Lol. Yes I do... I have a degree in it... lol. I know that the concept of God is basically an "untestable" concept if your for proving it or disproving it. If a theory cannot be tested with experimentation or observation it's "outside" of science. We can only currently observe things and conduct experiments inside the universe. But God is said to have created the universe and therefore can exist outside of the universe. Since he's outside of the universe, he cannot be observed, and is therefore outside of physics as we know it. I'm familiar with the details of Hawkings particular theory here and it attempts to measure what cannot be measured.... but he makes a nice try though.

Based on the way you write and the things you say, and that you think proff is a word (seriously, I thought you were making fun of a typo in the article, but I skimmed it and even googled "hawking proff" to no avail) even as a lowly engineer, I can see your degree in theoretical physics was obtained a) on the internet or b) at an all day workshop at the local hotel ballroom.

MasterOfPuppets
01-11-2012, 06:16 PM
I like that he put to rest once and for all this widely circulated theory from the religious folks that he was a believer. You can all stop with that nonsense now.

Where's his "proff"? Did you really just ask where his proof is? No... I mean, really? :huh:?

Just curious: How do you know that god is outside of the universe?
the burning bush said so ...:nana:

theplatypus
01-11-2012, 06:55 PM
Based on the way you write and the things you say, and that you think proff is a word (seriously, I thought you were making fun of a typo in the article, but I skimmed it and even googled "hawking proff" to no avail) even as a lowly engineer, I can see your degree in theoretical physics was obtained a) on the internet or b) at a an all day workshop at the local hotel ballroom.

ouch!

ricardisimo
01-11-2012, 08:16 PM
Based on the way you write and the things you say, and that you think proff is a word (seriously, I thought you were making fun of a typo in the article, but I skimmed it and even googled "hawking proff" to no avail) even as a lowly engineer, I can see your degree in theoretical physics was obtained a) on the internet or b) at a an all day workshop at the local hotel ballroom.
Hey, English may or may not be his second language, he was in a hurry, whatever. Shit happens. I still want to know how he is able to posit as fact that god is "outside the universe", and therefore not observable.

Mind you, once he answers that question, we can tackle the question of whether or not Mr. Hawking himself believes that we can receive information from, or arrive at conclusions about things outside of our observable universe. That will be step two. :wink02:

harrison'samonster
01-11-2012, 09:22 PM
actually I've heard that gravity is a force coming from another universe, and we only feel the after-affects in this universe.

So it's possible that God is an outside force.

SteelerEmpire
01-12-2012, 01:52 AM
Based on the way you write and the things you say, and that you think proff is a word (seriously, I thought you were making fun of a typo in the article, but I skimmed it and even googled "hawking proff" to no avail) even as a lowly engineer, I can see your degree in theoretical physics was obtained a) on the internet or b) at an all day workshop at the local hotel ballroom.

Lol. You seem like another Ravens fan trying to out-do a Steelers fan... that's about it. And you impress no one on here but yourself and the uneducated with attempts at slick remarks. Nice try also... Oh yea. I have over 60 patents... engineer.... And ricardo. I said "can", not "does" exist outside the universe (according to what the definition of God is supposed to be). And I don't like to get in these discussions because the laymen never understands them. I'm Jewish so I would more than likely have a better understanding than most about "God" as every word of the old and new testament was written by Jews and you can't "really" understand it's meaning unless you know the Hebrew language. I'm just wondering why you feel the need to take up for Hawking ? As that's the only motive I can see for such a response other than if your another atheist ? Are you guys ? Not trying to be funny or evil, just asking ?

BleedPurple
01-12-2012, 03:21 AM
Lol. You seem like another Ravens fan trying to out-do a Steelers fan... that's about it. And you impress no one on here but yourself and the uneducated with attempts at slick remarks. Nice try also... Oh yea. I have over 60 patents... engineer.... And ricardo. I said "can", not "does" exist outside the universe (according to what the definition of God is supposed to be). And I don't like to get in these discussions because the laymen never understands them. I'm Jewish so I would more than likely have a better understanding than most about "God" as every word of the old and new testament was written by Jews and you can't "really" understand it's meaning unless you know the Hebrew language. I'm just wondering why you feel the need to take up for Hawking ? As that's the only motive I can see for such a response other than if your another atheist ? Are you guys ? Not trying to be funny or evil, just asking ?

You can't spell, but I am supposed to believe you have developed patents and are a theological scholar. You aren't a theological scholar? Oh, then you are a laymen, the same as Ricardo and myself on the subject. Wait, you misused the word laymen because you are a condescending ass who only feels good about himself when puffing up on an internet board?

K then, have fun, I'm out of this discussion.

P.S. I won't even ask for one example of anything you have patented because I want to save you the trouble of drumming up an excuse. :chuckle: :wave:

hicksfan
01-12-2012, 09:15 AM
Lol. You seem like another Ravens fan trying to out-do a Steelers fan... that's about it. And you impress no one on here but yourself and the uneducated with attempts at slick remarks. Nice try also... Oh yea. I have over 60 patents... engineer.... And ricardo. I said "can", not "does" exist outside the universe (according to what the definition of God is supposed to be). And I don't like to get in these discussions because the laymen never understands them. I'm Jewish so I would more than likely have a better understanding than most about "God" as every word of the old and new testament was written by Jews and you can't "really" understand it's meaning unless you know the Hebrew language. I'm just wondering why you feel the need to take up for Hawking ? As that's the only motive I can see for such a response other than if your another atheist ? Are you guys ? Not trying to be funny or evil, just asking ?

quite a bit was copied from sumeria and babylon, no? the epic of gilgamesh had the flood story way before noah. the mosaic law was largely copied from the code of hammurabi. not much, if anything, is truly original in religion. it evolves, like everything. your conceit on the subject is arguably laughable. atheist only means disbelief in a personal, intentional god. spinoza's god, for example, still makes perfect sense. einstein himself was fond of the notion. joseph campbell once remarked that the disparity between the religious and the atheist is that the religious cannot see their story as anything other than literal, historical fact and the atheist does not appreciate the allegory/metaphor that the mythology contains. hawking's assessment is grounded in logic, the idea of afterlife is a supposition. again, the burden of proof is upon the believer. as steven jay gould once said "in science, fact can only mean confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent. i suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms."

SteelerEmpire
01-12-2012, 01:56 PM
You can't spell, but I am supposed to believe you have developed patents and are a theological scholar. You aren't a theological scholar? Oh, then you are a laymen, the same as Ricardo and myself on the subject. Wait, you misused the word laymen because you are a condescending ass who only feels good about himself when puffing up on an internet board?

K then, have fun, I'm out of this discussion.

P.S. I won't even ask for one example of anything you have patented because I want to save you the trouble of drumming up an excuse. :chuckle: :wave:

Ok then BleedPurple. I stll don't know what point you were trying to make other than the "attempt " at personal attacks. Understandable coming form someone who seems to be 12 ys old. But it's all good...

ricardisimo
01-12-2012, 02:49 PM
Lol. You seem like another Ravens fan trying to out-do a Steelers fan... that's about it. And you impress no one on here but yourself and the uneducated with attempts at slick remarks. Nice try also... Oh yea. I have over 60 patents... engineer.... And ricardo. I said "can", not "does" exist outside the universe (according to what the definition of God is supposed to be). And I don't like to get in these discussions because the laymen never understands them. I'm Jewish so I would more than likely have a better understanding than most about "God" as every word of the old and new testament was written by Jews and you can't "really" understand it's meaning unless you know the Hebrew language. I'm just wondering why you feel the need to take up for Hawking ? As that's the only motive I can see for such a response other than if your another atheist ? Are you guys ? Not trying to be funny or evil, just asking ?
Hmmm... You made all sorts of leaps of logic there. Carpenters create houses, they do most of it from inside. They are still completely observable whether they are inside or out. Besides, you assume "can", and then proceed to:
Since he's outside of the universe, he cannot be observed, and is therefore outside of physics as we know it.
That's a monumental leap. What does "supposed to be" mean regarding your definition of god? I didn't know that god was "supposed to be" anything. If god obeys rules and abides by definitions dreamed up by little monkeys floating on a rock through space, then god is not the master, which by your definition of god means that god is actually not god. Rather, some other rule-maker and definer is god... you, conveniently enough. Doesn't that work out nicely?

We need not get into the judeo-centrism. Not only is there nothing in this world for Jews or Christians to be proud of, and not only is much of their tradition "borrowed", as hicksfan points out, but Hebrew (unlike Yiddish) stands in relation to Jews exactly as Latin stands to Spaniards, Italians and the French. It's a revived language, with all the pitfalls that this brings to any linguist of any background.

And of course the Old and New Testaments are just ugly, horrifying documents written by ugly, horrifying men. That's another story.

Hawking, on the other hand, writes quite beautifully, and while his topics tend to reside on the periphery of theoretical physics, with many dangers and much contention from his colleagues (and let's face it, he's almost certainly wrong on all sorts of things, just as Newton and Einstein before him are proving to be wrong); despite all of this, he has a disciplined mind and attempts to restrict himself to the basic rules of scientific method and discourse.

SteelerEmpire
01-13-2012, 11:47 PM
Hmmm... You made all sorts of leaps of logic there. Carpenters create houses, they do most of it from inside. They are still completely observable whether they are inside or out. Besides, you assume "can", and then proceed to:

That's a monumental leap. What does "supposed to be" mean regarding your definition of god? I didn't know that god was "supposed to be" anything. If god obeys rules and abides by definitions dreamed up by little monkeys floating on a rock through space, then god is not the master, which by your definition of god means that god is actually not god. Rather, some other rule-maker and definer is god... you, conveniently enough. Doesn't that work out nicely?

We need not get into the judeo-centrism. Not only is there nothing in this world for Jews or Christians to be proud of, and not only is much of their tradition "borrowed", as hicksfan points out, but Hebrew (unlike Yiddish) stands in relation to Jews exactly as Latin stands to Spaniards, Italians and the French. It's a revived language, with all the pitfalls that this brings to any linguist of any background.

And of course the Old and New Testaments are just ugly, horrifying documents written by ugly, horrifying men. That's another story.

Hawking, on the other hand, writes quite beautifully, and while his topics tend to reside on the periphery of theoretical physics, with many dangers and much contention from his colleagues (and let's face it, he's almost certainly wrong on all sorts of things, just as Newton and Einstein before him are proving to be wrong); despite all of this, he has a disciplined mind and attempts to restrict himself to the basic rules of scientific method and discourse.

Way ahead of you bro. I'm not judging you for "any" of your beliefs. But I did know I would get this kind of response before I posted this. If whatever you believe in works for YOU. Then who am I to challenge it. Good luck to you, and God bless you bro...!

ricardisimo
01-14-2012, 12:01 PM
Way ahead of you bro. I'm not judging you for "any" of your beliefs. But I did know I would get this kind of response before I posted this. If whatever you believe in works for YOU. Then who am I to challenge it. Good luck to you, and God bless you bro...!
:drink:

hicksfan
01-16-2012, 09:07 AM
Way ahead of you bro. I'm not judging you for "any" of your beliefs. But I did know I would get this kind of response before I posted this. If whatever you believe in works for YOU. Then who am I to challenge it. Good luck to you, and God bless you bro...!

why, then, did you call hawking an "A-hole" for his views and call his opinion a joke?

SteelerEmpire
01-16-2012, 09:54 PM
why, then, did you call hawking an "A-hole" for his views and call his opinion a joke?

To stay in the tradition of a forum message board... for conversation. Like I said above, I knew I would get certain types of responses. It was all about killing boredom. If Hawking dies and wakes up in hell that's the result of his life's path he chose by rejecting a creator. If he dies and simply ceases to exist, then he was right. Either way it's his life and he can select whatever path he deems so fit. Maybe "A-hole" was a strong word, but you might know what I mean. But anyway, the math of his theory still doesn't prove, or disprove, the existence of a creator... and that's the main point I was trying to make. But the discussion went off topic a bit due to the "board troll"... lol. Outside of that, I say one can "believe" whatever they are most comfortable with.

hicksfan
01-17-2012, 01:44 PM
To stay in the tradition of a forum message board... for conversation. Like I said above, I knew I would get certain types of responses. It was all about killing boredom. If Hawking dies and wakes up in hell that's the result of his life's path he chose by rejecting a creator. If he dies and simply ceases to exist, then he was right. Either way it's his life and he can select whatever path he deems so fit. Maybe "A-hole" was a strong word, but you might know what I mean. But anyway, the math of his theory still doesn't prove, or disprove, the existence of a creator... and that's the main point I was trying to make. But the discussion went off topic a bit due to the "board troll"... lol. Outside of that, I say one can "believe" whatever they are most comfortable with.

how do you disprove something that's asserted without proof? why should one have to? seems it should just as easily be dismissed without such. again, to me the burden of proof is upon the believer. why is that such an odd concept?

harrison'samonster
01-17-2012, 05:13 PM
Life is too short to wait for proof of God existing. Find yourself a good church and decide for yourself though, it will only take one hour of the week.

SteelerEmpire
01-18-2012, 12:51 AM
how do you disprove something that's asserted without proof? why should one have to? seems it should just as easily be dismissed without such. again, to me the burden of proof is upon the believer. why is that such an odd concept?

Lol. My friend. It's NOT a "proff" he provides.... lol. Just a theory...

tony hipchest
01-18-2012, 01:01 AM
Life is too short to wait for proof of God existing. Find yourself a good church and decide for yourself though, it will only take one hour of the week.

hell, i would recommend actually reading the bible one hour per week above that.

its actually a pretty good book and is more revealing each time its read.

the entire compilation of books is pretty cool considering the history and context in which it was compiled.


like most things, people will only get out of it, what they put into it. religion is no different.

relying on scientific experts to prove religion and vice versa is pretty much a futile exersize.

we all live in the same world.

hicksfan
01-18-2012, 09:09 AM
Life is too short to wait for proof of God existing. Find yourself a good church and decide for yourself though, it will only take one hour of the week.

or, as bill hicks once said "take a massive amount of mushrooms, sit in a field and just go 'show me' ".

religions have built-in defense mechanisms. anything that questions a belief, no matter how logical the argument, is a product of satan just by the very fact you question a belief. you have to find ways to work around that to find truth.

hicksfan
01-18-2012, 09:15 AM
hell, i would recommend actually reading the bible one hour per week above that.

its actually a pretty good book and is more revealing each time its read.

the entire compilation of books is pretty cool considering the history and context in which it was compiled.


like most things, people will only get out of it, what they put into it. religion is no different.

relying on scientific experts to prove religion and vice versa is pretty much a futile exersize.

we all live in the same world.

the bible, for the most part, is a book of mythology and tribal laws. it explains natural phenomenon and morality plays (however outdated some/most are) to the uneducated. i recently bought r. l. crumb's illustrated book of genesis after reading joseph campbell's "the power of myth" (which is a fabulous read, btw). i started to notice little nuances that i had glossed over previously, namely little things like supposedly we didn't have the seasons until after the flood... god's way of making it harder for us to survive. man realizes he is not pure and has to rationalize his primal origin/instincts and why our existence hinges on sustainability in an inclement environment and our suffering that accompanies. we romanticize a purer existence and rationalize that we fell from grace somehow. the origin of religion is from the rituals associated with life feeding on life, a completely uncomfortable realization. in some way we must appease whatever provides us life so that we may live another day.

many tenets no longer apply to our culture, such as etiquette towards owning slaves, bride prices and foods to avoid. yet some hold that it's the alpha and omega in relative terms of "so it is, so it's always been" and we know that isn't exactly true or all encompassing. there's a comfort factor involved in having a reference with "all of the answers" for those that eschew choices and developing decision making skills based on what's relative at that point in time. man has always had a way of coming up with an answer or a rationalization even if we eventually find that initial answer was the furthest thing from the truth (for example, sickness equated to demonic possession) and mythology is a form of that answering questions man previously had no real good answer for.

i appreciate the metaphors and understand the thrust of the mythology, but looking at it from a literal/historical perspective there's little truth to be found at all. do you know how many attributes of "the son of god" came from ancient's stories about the sun of god? most all of it. the origin of the cross itself comes from the solar calendar the ancients referenced. not to mention the virgin birth, crucifixion and ressurection all came from the sun's precession through the sky.

hicksfan
01-18-2012, 11:18 AM
Lol. My friend. It's NOT a "proff" he provides.... lol. Just a theory...

nice dodge, but the question is still relative - how you disprove something that's asserted without proof? and do you really believe eternal suffering awaits anyone who questions god's infinite love?

harrison'samonster
01-18-2012, 03:24 PM
nice dodge, but the question is still relative - how you disprove something that's asserted without proof? and do you really believe eternal suffering awaits anyone who questions god's infinite love?

Everybody at some point is going to question if God exists because it's not something that can be proven or disproved.

And Tony, I agree that reading the Bible is something I need to do more often, maybe now that the Steelers season is over I can get back to reading more!

ricardisimo
01-18-2012, 03:51 PM
The issue with many of us on the dark side of the force is Christians specifically (and believers generally) enforcing their views of the world on others. Whether or not one believes in god is irrelevant to the larger discussions that follow, because those discussions have bearing on the real world and real peoples' lives. At that point we have every right to question sources, logic, motivations, etc.

But again, the issue is not whether SteelerEmpire, you or anyone else has a right to believe, and certainly not whether Prof. Hawking is an "A-hole" for not believing. When school curriculum comes up, or marriage and family laws based on Islam or Christianity or Satanism... then it's fair game.

harrison'samonster
01-18-2012, 08:41 PM
I distrust anybody who wants to push religiously based laws, the leaders of the religious conservatives are liars like every other politician.

I guess I get concerned when I hear somebody say that they would need proof before believing in a God because it's possible they want to believe but just can't without the proof. That person just isn't going to get a satisfying answer when they ask for proof of God's existence, because it doesn't exist.

And why do you get to be the dark side of the force? That's not fair. The dark side is so much cooler.

hicksfan
01-19-2012, 09:13 AM
I guess I get concerned when I hear somebody say that they would need proof before believing in a God because it's possible they want to believe but just can't without the proof. That person just isn't going to get a satisfying answer when they ask for proof of God's existence, because it doesn't exist.

that wasn't my implication, my point is it's not up to "unbeliever" to disprove something. it's up to the believer to prove. do you believe in unicorns? i highly doubt it. why should you or i have to prove they don't exist or else it's considered plausible? it's up to the person that believes unicorns exist to prove they do. it's a logical fallacy that one should have to disprove something asserted without proof. dude was asking where hawking's proof was, hence my question.

UF-Steeler
01-19-2012, 11:44 AM
Interestingly enough, the series Curiosity on Discovery premiered its first show with the question Did God create the universe? It was pretty much Stephen Hawking presenting his theory as to why he believes God did not create the universe. He had a pretty compelling argument, but again, it cannot be proved at this time.

I try to stay out of religious debates, however, I feel that questioning something is a good thing. What's wrong with trying to come up with another reason for why something is created or whether or not something exists? This leads to me to agree with one thing Hawking said during the show: humans try to justify and find a reason why something would happen. What better way to attribute a reason for a happening than to say a higher power created it or caused it to happen.

The topic obviously allows for endless arguments back and forth. In addition, I think the OP created the thread with a comment that was not thoroughly thought out.

ricardisimo
01-19-2012, 04:42 PM
Interestingly enough, the series Curiosity on Discovery premiered its first show with the question Did God create the universe? It was pretty much Stephen Hawking presenting his theory as to why he believes God did not create the universe. He had a pretty compelling argument, but again, it cannot be proved at this time.

I try to stay out of religious debates, however, I feel that questioning something is a good thing. What's wrong with trying to come up with another reason for why something is created or whether or not something exists? This leads to me to agree with one thing Hawking said during the show: humans try to justify and find a reason why something would happen. What better way to attribute a reason for a happening than to say a higher power created it or caused it to happen.

The topic obviously allows for endless arguments back and forth. In addition, I think the OP created the thread with a comment that was not thoroughly thought out.
I would tend to agree. It was more than a tad inflammatory, but then he didn't seem to care for some of the flames.

harrison'samonster
01-19-2012, 05:14 PM
that wasn't my implication, my point is it's not up to "unbeliever" to disprove something. it's up to the believer to prove. do you believe in unicorns? i highly doubt it. why should you or i have to prove they don't exist or else it's considered plausible? it's up to the person that believes unicorns exist to prove they do. it's a logical fallacy that one should have to disprove something asserted without proof. dude was asking where hawking's proof was, hence my question.

Sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying. Your logic is correct, the burden of proof is on the believer. No, I'm sorry to say I don't believe in Unicorns. Wouldn't they be beautiful though? But they would kill Tim Curry I'm led to believe, which wouldn't be so good.

ricardisimo
01-19-2012, 06:03 PM
Sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying. Your logic is correct, the burden of proof is on the believer. No, I'm sorry to say I don't believe in Unicorns. Wouldn't they be beautiful though? But they would kill Tim Curry I'm led to believe, which wouldn't be so good.
Referencing one of my all-time faves, I must admit. Ah, Mia Sara... [pitter-patter, pitter-patter...]

harrison'samonster
01-19-2012, 06:50 PM
Referencing one of my all-time faves, I must admit. Ah, Mia Sara... [pitter-patter, pitter-patter...]

That is a great movie! I haven't seen it in years though.

harrison'samonster
01-19-2012, 06:57 PM
Interestingly enough, the series Curiosity on Discovery premiered its first show with the question Did God create the universe? It was pretty much Stephen Hawking presenting his theory as to why he believes God did not create the universe. He had a pretty compelling argument, but again, it cannot be proved at this time.

I try to stay out of religious debates, however, I feel that questioning something is a good thing. What's wrong with trying to come up with another reason for why something is created or whether or not something exists? This leads to me to agree with one thing Hawking said during the show: humans try to justify and find a reason why something would happen. What better way to attribute a reason for a happening than to say a higher power created it or caused it to happen.

The topic obviously allows for endless arguments back and forth. In addition, I think the OP created the thread with a comment that was not thoroughly thought out.

I agree it's good to question and that this topic allows for endless arguments. At what point though does a person say to themselves that there's not enough evidence to support the existence of God and then stop believing or decide that God can't exist?

At what point does evidence that God doesn't exist (for example similar themes in different mythologies, the horrible nature of humans, and the fact that the earth isn't the center of the universe) make a person say to themselves it's not rational or worth their time if it isn't proven?

There is no proof that God exists, and we'll all pass on without proof.

hicksfan
01-23-2012, 11:26 AM
I agree it's good to question and that this topic allows for endless arguments. At what point though does a person say to themselves that there's not enough evidence to support the existence of God and then stop believing or decide that God can't exist?

At what point does evidence that God doesn't exist (for example similar themes in different mythologies, the horrible nature of humans, and the fact that the earth isn't the center of the universe) make a person say to themselves it's not rational or worth their time if it isn't proven?

There is no proof that God exists, and we'll all pass on without proof.

i think the crux of it comes down to whether or not a person believes god is intentional or indifferent and i do notice that the two often get muddled. god can be viewed in a host of ways, the universe itself is composed of energy condensed to a slow vibration. can that collective of energy be viewed as god? absolutely, yet that view of god is that of an indifferent "god" that everything is a part of. those that want to assert god is intentional have to prove the intention. to push the idea that god is a man with a beard passing judgement creating man in his image is an intentional form of god and obviously more proof is required to affirm that assessment as much as he/she/it's existence. i'm waiting for someone to rationalize why god has to clip his nails and explain why he has butt hair.

FanSince72
01-23-2012, 12:10 PM
The way I see it is like this:

Whether it was the chicken or the egg that came first is irrelevant since SOMETHING had to have put either one there in the first place. So in that sense, I believe that there is a Creator or at least a creative entity at the beginning of it all. Of course, just where that THAT came from is anyone's guess.

But I do NOT believe that there is an invisible man living in the clouds who watches over my everyday life, nor do I subscribe to any religion - primarily because religions are man-made and as such tend to be more political than spiritual.

I do believe we all have some essence that animates us ( a soul, for lack of a better term) that gives us our personality and I couldn't begin to guess where that comes from or how it works - I simply accept that it exists.

But as far as heaven goes, there may very well be a place that our souls go after we die but I think that going "there" intact is not likely. The reason I believe this is because everything else in the universe is in some way recycled and in some way becomes a part of something else. So I can't see why a soul would be any different and as such I believe that my soul will one day become a part (large or small) of one or many other future souls.

I believe there is an abundance of life in the universe and that humanity is just a part of that life and is no more special than anything else out there. So whatever happens to us after we die, it will be the same (or very similar) for all life, not just humanity.

ricardisimo
01-23-2012, 10:25 PM
Mmmm... not so much. People forget that our understanding of the universe is restricted by our capacity for understanding. So, if we can't visualize eleven dimensions, there's no understanding it. And if we can't think of a universe without causation, than there's no understanding such a universe.

The thing to realize is that people make themselves god with this maneuver; I can't imagine a world without a First Cause, therefore there must be a First Cause. Hence, my need to understand the world is so important, that my very need creates God.

But who says we need to understand the world? And if we do need to understand it, why are we allowed to take shortcuts? Why shouldn't we be obliged to do it the hard way, AKA science?

Besides, contrary to popular opinion, god does not get around the problems of causality. If god exists because something needed to create the universe, than something need to exist to create god.

FanSince72
02-01-2012, 12:33 PM
Mmmm... not so much. People forget that our understanding of the universe is restricted by our capacity for understanding. So, if we can't visualize eleven dimensions, there's no understanding it. And if we can't think of a universe without causation, than there's no understanding such a universe.

The thing to realize is that people make themselves god with this maneuver; I can't imagine a world without a First Cause, therefore there must be a First Cause. Hence, my need to understand the world is so important, that my very need creates God.

But who says we need to understand the world? And if we do need to understand it, why are we allowed to take shortcuts? Why shouldn't we be obliged to do it the hard way, AKA science?

Besides, contrary to popular opinion, god does not get around the problems of causality. If god exists because something needed to create the universe, than something need to exist to create god.

Well, we may not agree on Offensive Coordinators but I'd say we see things pretty similarly on this particular issue.

Great post!

JPPT1974
02-01-2012, 06:36 PM
Well we can respect on how Steve Hawking version of heaven is. We can always agree to disagree.

Sneak
02-01-2012, 11:22 PM
Atheism is basicly the same as having a religous faith. One thing isnt more based in "science" than the other. God cannot possible be disproven, nor can he(or any other such creature, such as flying monsters made of pasta) be proven.

The only responsible stance on such a subject, if we are talking PROOF and not FAITH (faith is a whole other ballgame) is agnostisism. Accepting that god MAY exist, but choosing not to take a definite stance on the subject untill such a time that proof may present itself.

If we're talking faith, well.. The Atheists "faith" is obviously that there ISNT a god.. Dont really see the difference between that and organised religion. Guess the perk is that you get to have less pain in the ass rules to live by? :)

ricardisimo
02-02-2012, 04:12 AM
Atheism is basicly the same as having a religous faith. One thing isnt more based in "science" than the other. God cannot possible be disproven, nor can he(or any other such creature, such as flying monsters made of pasta) be proven.

The only responsible stance on such a subject, if we are talking PROOF and not FAITH (faith is a whole other ballgame) is agnostisism. Accepting that god MAY exist, but choosing not to take a definite stance on the subject untill such a time that proof may present itself.

If we're talking faith, well.. The Atheists "faith" is obviously that there ISNT a god.. Dont really see the difference between that and organised religion. Guess the perk is that you get to have less pain in the ass rules to live by? :)
"Atheist" is mainly what believers call us, because it matters to them what we are (mostly for the purposes of burning us at the stake). I don't believe in unicorns either, but no one has given me a name because of that, and certainly I don't call myself antiunicornian because of my stance. Once we change the word "god" to "unicorn", that argument is laid bare; My stance on unicorns (and yours as well, no doubt) is not faith, nor is my stance on mind-powered levitation, or on the fairies in the thread title.

There is no need to prove the things we do not believe, nor even hypothesize. Hypotheses require proof. Arguments require proof. The onus is always on the person making the argument, because there is an argument being made. The list of things that even believers do not believe is endless, and it would be fruitless and pointless to ask them to prove those things, rather than to prove what they do believe.

However, because we live in a world so dominated by believers, there are indeed times when one must become what Sartre termed a "postulatory atheist". I postulate that there is no god. Do I plan any meaningful facet of my life around this fact? No, but issues of faith do come up often enough in public policy debates in this country that I have to play this card from time-to-time, if only for purposes of positioning myself in the public debate.

And once again, that is the key: intrusions by religion into the public realm make religion fair game by its critics. Holding cherished beliefs is fine, both in your hearts and at your churches. But as soon as you try to alter my child's school curriculum because of it, or deny women access to contraception, then I will gleefully point out what a useless, backwoods crock of superstition it really is.

Sneak
02-02-2012, 11:23 AM
Well, living in Sweden, bible-bashers isnt really a big problem. There's the odd one, but nothing that impacts daily life the way (I imagine) it does in the states, and for that matter most parts of the world.

My basic point is simply this: We dont know. And there is no proof of, nor any way to disprove the existance of a god. Or anything else which we cannot percieve with our senses.

Thats the limitation of science. Thats a limitation that has to be recogniced. Because by definition, stating that there ISNT a god is just as problematic as stating that there IS one.

I know alot of "Atheists" who state with 100 percent certainty that there ISNT a god.

A definition from Wikipedia: "Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities."

My position as an Agnostic is that in itself is making an argument, an argument that requires proof. As an agnostic I do not state that there isnt a god, simply that I've never seen proof of a god.

Steelboy84
02-02-2012, 04:45 PM
Atheism is basicly the same as having a religous faith. One thing isnt more based in "science" than the other. God cannot possible be disproven, nor can he(or any other such creature, such as flying monsters made of pasta) be proven.

The only responsible stance on such a subject, if we are talking PROOF and not FAITH (faith is a whole other ballgame) is agnostisism. Accepting that god MAY exist, but choosing not to take a definite stance on the subject untill such a time that proof may present itself.

If we're talking faith, well.. The Atheists "faith" is obviously that there ISNT a god.. Dont really see the difference between that and organised religion. Guess the perk is that you get to have less pain in the ass rules to live by? :)


:banging: :banging: :banging:

Sneak
02-02-2012, 11:39 PM
:banging: :banging: :banging:

Good argument, bro. :thumbsup:

FanSince72
02-03-2012, 10:22 AM
The proper term for people such as myself is: "Deist".

Deism is basically belief in a God or Creator that made the universe (and thus the earth) but has since remained indifferent to it. I don't discount a "Creator" because as I've said, something had to have gotten everything started. But given the enormity of the universe (or Multiverse, if you believe in the existence of more than one) I just don't believe something that could be responsible for the existence of something so enormous would be so interested in our little speck in the galaxy as to watch over the daily activities of its inhabitants.

One of the interesting things about Deism is that many (if not most) of the founders of this nation were Deists and actively opposed organized religion. Benjamin Franklin was famously quoted as saying that "Lighthouses were more useful than churches", and I suppose that's why there was such a strong sentiment back then to keep religion and government as far apart from each other as possible.

That hasn't worked out as well as they may have wished, but their reasoning was sound.

hicksfan
03-02-2012, 11:28 AM
Atheism is basicly the same as having a religous faith. One thing isnt more based in "science" than the other. God cannot possible be disproven, nor can he(or any other such creature, such as flying monsters made of pasta) be proven.

The only responsible stance on such a subject, if we are talking PROOF and not FAITH (faith is a whole other ballgame) is agnostisism. Accepting that god MAY exist, but choosing not to take a definite stance on the subject untill such a time that proof may present itself.

If we're talking faith, well.. The Atheists "faith" is obviously that there ISNT a god.. Dont really see the difference between that and organised religion. Guess the perk is that you get to have less pain in the ass rules to live by? :)

that's kinda like calling bald a hair color. and again, the burden of proof is upon the believer. how would one go about "disproving" unicorns or leprechauns? the idea of agnosticism being the only responsible stance is laughable at best. arguably, agnosticism is for those that really don't put a whole lot of thought into the issue. everyone is atheistic to 99.9999% of the gods ever made, some people just go one god further. when "believers" start to realize why they dismiss all the other gods ever made, they should then understand why their god is dismissed as easily.

Blackout
03-04-2012, 07:47 PM
The issue with many of us on the dark side of the force is Christians specifically (and believers generally) enforcing their views of the world on other..

That goes for non-believers as well though.

BTW:
http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/

Got a rebuttal to it:

A very articulate, joyful 12-year old with a fatal disease speaks about his faith. I know many adults who don't speak this well or have this sort of grasp on life.

http://www.godvine.com/The-Inspirational-Story-of-Garvan-Byrne-a-Must-See-731.html

hicksfan
03-05-2012, 09:07 AM
That goes for non-believers as well though.

really? how many atheists have burned a believer at the stake in the course of history?

harrison'samonster
03-05-2012, 02:27 PM
well if I can remember right, a bunch of the top Nazis weren't religious, and they killed 6 million Jews.

Blackout
03-05-2012, 07:07 PM
really? how many atheists have burned a believer at the stake in the course of history?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag
http://youtu.be/YFlx55OANg8

Also the 20 million Christians were killed by the communists...

hicksfan
03-06-2012, 09:16 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag
http://youtu.be/YFlx55OANg8

Also the 20 million Christians were killed by the communists...

wow, that requires a huge leap of faith to automatically connect atheism with communism. communism is an economic/political system vs. atheism's focus on theology. what other straws are you going to grasp for?

Christian Snyder
03-06-2012, 06:19 PM
wow, that requires a huge leap of faith to automatically connect atheism with communism. communism is an economic/political system vs. atheism's focus on theology. what other straws are you going to grasp for? Communism isn't athiest? You could have fooled me. Karl Marx (the founder of communism btw) has plenty of NEGATIVE things to say about religion. see here: http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/7084.Karl_Marx


"“Religion is the Opiate of the Masses.” "

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.” "

“The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness.” "

"“Die Religion...ist das Opium des Volkes” "

"“The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.” "

"“Religion is the impotence of the human mind to deal with occurrences it cannot understand.” "


Wikipedia page for USSR:

"In Soviet law, the "freedom to hold religious services" was constitutionally guaranteed, although the ruling Communist Party regarded religion as incompatible with the Marxist spirit of scientific materialism.[129] In practice, the Soviet system subscribed to a narrow interpretation of this right, and in fact utilized a range of official measures to discourage religion and curb the activities of religious groups.[129]"

Christian Snyder
03-06-2012, 06:31 PM
Also, grab a book about Christian martyrs once, about 60% of the names and stories listed are from COMMUNIST NATIONS (i.e Russia, China, N. Korea, etc.) They not only discourage religion, they kill religious people!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Soviet_Union

Christian Snyder
03-06-2012, 06:41 PM
really? how many atheists have burned a believer at the stake in the course of history? Plenty, just instead they prefer the more "humane" electric chair or AK-47. Remember, when communism became prevelant, fire was so yesterday. I think that was actually Lenin's exact words as he cooked up torture methods on his I-phone....wait a minute!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians


Just stating the facts.

hicksfan
03-07-2012, 11:22 AM
Question:
What's the difference between atheism and anti-theism? Aren't all atheists also anti-theists?

Answer:
Atheism and anti-theism so often occur together at the same time and in the same person that it's understandable if many people fail to realize that they aren't the same. Making note of the difference is important, however, because not every atheist is anti-theistic and even those who are, aren't anti-theistic all the time. Atheism is simply the absence of belief in gods;anti-theism is a conscious and deliberate opposition to theism. Many atheists are also anti-theists, but not all.

When defined broadly as simply the absence of belief in gods, atheism covers territory that isn't quite compatible with anti-theism. People who are indifferent to the existence of alleged gods are atheists because they don't believe in the existence of any gods, but at the same time this indifference prevents them from being anti-theists as well. To a degree, this describes many if not most atheists because there are plenty of alleged gods they simply don't care about and, therefore, also don't care enough to attack belief in such gods. Atheistic indifference towards not only theism but also religion is relatively common and would probably be standard if religious theists weren't so active in proselytizing and expecting privileges for themselves, their beliefs, and their institutions.

When defined narrowly as denying the existence of gods, the compatibility between atheism and anti-theism may appear more likely. If a person cares enough to deny that gods exist, then perhaps they care enough to attack belief in gods as well — but not always. Lots of people will deny that elves or fairies exist, but how many of these same people also attack belief in such creatures? If we want to limit ourselves to just religious contexts, we can say the same about angels: there are far more people who reject angels than who reject gods, but how many nonbelievers in angels attack the belief in angels? How many a-angel-ists are also anti-angel-ists? Of course, we also don't have people proselytizing on behalf of elves, fairies, or angels very much and we certainly don't have believers arguing that they and their beliefs should be privileged very much. It's thus only to be expected that most of those who deny the existence of such beings are also relatively indifferent towards those who do believe.

Anti-theism requires more than either merely disbelieving in gods or even denying the existence of gods. Anti-theism requires a couple of specific and additional beliefs: first, that theism is harmful to the believer, harmful to society, harmful to politics, harmful, to culture, etc.; second, that theism can and should be countered in order to reduce the harm it causes. If a person believes these things, then they will likely be an anti-theist who works against theism by arguing that it be abandoned, promoting alternatives, or perhaps even supporting measures to suppress it.

hicksfan
03-07-2012, 11:24 AM
Communism isn't athiest? You could have fooled me. Karl Marx (the founder of communism btw) has plenty of NEGATIVE things to say about religion. see here: http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/7084.Karl_Marx

i think communism falls more into anti-theism much more than atheism. see the post above explaining the difference. it's been my experience that it's easier to herd cats than it is to get a group of atheists together.

Christian Snyder
03-07-2012, 05:53 PM
Atheism is basicly the same as having a religous faith. One thing isnt more based in "science" than the other. God cannot possible be disproven, nor can he(or any other such creature, such as flying monsters made of pasta) be proven.

The only responsible stance on such a subject, if we are talking PROOF and not FAITH (faith is a whole other ballgame) is agnostisism. Accepting that god MAY exist, but choosing not to take a definite stance on the subject untill such a time that proof may present itself.

If we're talking faith, well.. The Atheists "faith" is obviously that there ISNT a god.. Dont really see the difference between that and organised religion. Guess the perk is that you get to have less pain in the ass rules to live by? :) What I don't get about agnostics is, if you never stand for any deity, what deity is going to stand for you? If you believe that there may be a God, but refuse to believe in any religion, you'll end up in hell anyway in the end if there actually is one. I may be 14, but I'm not too young to understand that simple fact.

This is my analogy on agnosticism: You're certain that this one certain tree might fall, and if it actually does fall, you know where it is going to fall; So, you decide to stand in that spot and wait too see if it falls. One day, the tree falls just as you said it might and it kills you..... What did standing there waiting to see if the tree is actually going to fall accomplish you?

Christian Snyder
03-07-2012, 06:01 PM
The proper term for people such as myself is: "Deist".

Deism is basically belief in a God or Creator that made the universe (and thus the earth) but has since remained indifferent to it. I don't discount a "Creator" because as I've said, something had to have gotten everything started. But given the enormity of the universe (or Multiverse, if you believe in the existence of more than one) I just don't believe something that could be responsible for the existence of something so enormous would be so interested in our little speck in the galaxy as to watch over the daily activities of its inhabitants.

One of the interesting things about Deism is that many (if not most) of the founders of this nation were Deists and actively opposed organized religion. Benjamin Franklin was famously quoted as saying that "Lighthouses were more useful than churches", and I suppose that's why there was such a strong sentiment back then to keep religion and government as far apart from each other as possible.

That hasn't worked out as well as they may have wished, but their reasoning was sound. Why wouldn't he be interested in our every day life? Since God is omnipotent (everywhere), why wouldn't he want to intervene in certain things in our lives? Certainly he doesn't intervene everywhere, but he intervenes in certain places. Considering that we are the most intelligent beings in the world, and the only beings with free will, why wouldn't God intervene here and there? If we truly are God's creation, then why wouldn't he care for us as a Father cares after his children?

I'm very interested in debating any deists or agnostics as I want to see what you truly believe.

SteelerEmpire
03-07-2012, 06:36 PM
well if I can remember right, a bunch of the top Nazis weren't religious, and they killed 6 million Jews.

So was Joseph Stalin; that did't go well either.

But I do respect whatever a person believe's in because their's something right and wrong about every belief.

But If I may say something about the Jews, our belief works for "us". We've been through hell and back over the centuries and are still doing pretty good considering. Now to us, God works. I'll just leave with this quote from Mark Twain:

The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed; and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other people have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?”

- Mark Twain
(“Concerning The Jews,” Harper’s Magazine, 1899
see The Complete Essays of Mark Twain, Doubleday [1963] pg. 249)

-----------------
"What is the secret of his immortality?" .... for us, God.

Christian Snyder
03-07-2012, 06:41 PM
So was Joseph Stalin; that did't go well either.

But I do respect whatever a person believe's in because their's something right and wrong about every belief.

But If I may say something about the Jews, our belief works for "us". We've been through hell and back over the centuries and are still doing pretty good considering. Now to us, God works. I'll just leave with this quote from Mark Twain:

The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed; and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other people have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?”

- Mark Twain
(“Concerning The Jews,” Harper’s Magazine, 1899
see The Complete Essays of Mark Twain, Doubleday [1963] pg. 249)

-----------------
"What is the secret of his immortality?" .... for us, God. There is only something wrong with every belief because man has perverted the truth. There is a concrete set of beliefs and morals that are true but mankind over the decades has distanced itself from those values. We, as a country, have never been so far away from those values as we are today.

SteelerEmpire
03-07-2012, 06:46 PM
There is only something wrong with every belief because man has perverted the truth. There is a concrete set of beliefs and morals that are true but mankind over the decades has distanced itself from those values. We, as a country, have never been so far away from those values as we are today.

Very true.

ricardisimo
03-08-2012, 02:46 AM
So was Joseph Stalin; that did't go well either.

But I do respect whatever a person believe's in because their's something right and wrong about every belief.

But If I may say something about the Jews, our belief works for "us". We've been through hell and back over the centuries and are still doing pretty good considering. Now to us, God works. I'll just leave with this quote from Mark Twain:

The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed; and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other people have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?”

- Mark Twain
(“Concerning The Jews,” Harper’s Magazine, 1899
see The Complete Essays of Mark Twain, Doubleday [1963] pg. 249)

-----------------
"What is the secret of his immortality?" .... for us, God.
:rolleyes:

hicksfan
03-08-2012, 11:09 AM
"What is the secret of his immortality?" .... for us, God.

and shirking military duty.

Christian Snyder
03-10-2012, 01:57 PM
:rolleyes: What is there to mock? If you look at Jewish history it is filled with miracles. The state of Israel is clearly blessed by God, whether you look at the fertility of the land compared to neighboring nations or their stunning military victories. Whether it be their war for independence, Yom Kippur war, or War of Attrition they have showed that they're truly blessed.

ricardisimo
03-12-2012, 02:15 AM
What is there to mock? If you look at Jewish history it is filled with miracles. The state of Israel is clearly blessed by God, whether you look at the fertility of the land compared to neighboring nations or their stunning military victories. Whether it be their war for independence, Yom Kippur war, or War of Attrition they have showed that they're truly blessed.
Yes, the six million Jews murdered in the Holocaust clearly demonstrate how much god loves his people. The tens (or hundreds) of thousands murdered during the Inquisition makes crystal clear that they are Chosen. Their pretty much non-stop persecution throughout the entire world outside of certain large cities in North America just makes his adoration for them that much more absolute.

Only a religious mind is able to invert reality to the point where one can look at the evidence and interpret it as "god's love". Clearly he loves his people. The only way he could love them more is if they were all dead.

Hence... :rolleyes:

MasterOfPuppets
03-12-2012, 02:44 AM
Only a religious mind is able to invert reality to the point where one can look at the evidence and interpret it as "god's love". Clearly he loves his people. The only way he could love them more is if they were all dead.

Hence... :rolleyes:
you godless heathen !!!... one day my god shall smite thee from the heavens !!! then i will take thee's charred ashes and fertilize thyn garden.. :mad:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_0b7FYyknq-Y/S2ZGP_5a54I/AAAAAAAAAoc/WkN77Ia9mKM/s400/zeus.jpg

MasterOfPuppets
03-12-2012, 02:59 AM
Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian


10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

Christian Snyder
03-12-2012, 06:44 PM
Yes, the six million Jews murdered in the Holocaust clearly demonstrate how much god loves his people. The tens (or hundreds) of thousands murdered during the Inquisition makes crystal clear that they are Chosen. Their pretty much non-stop persecution throughout the entire world outside of certain large cities in North America just makes his adoration for them that much more absolute.

Only a religious mind is able to invert reality to the point where one can look at the evidence and interpret it as "god's love". Clearly he loves his people. The only way he could love them more is if they were all dead.

Hence... :rolleyes: How else would have they created the nation of Israel? If not for fear of another Holocoaust or similar event they would've likely never sought for their own nation again. IMO the Holocaust was Satan's attempt to destroy them.

If they aren't God's people then why are they so hated? What other race of people is hated so much for doing so little? I agree they aren't all saints but then again in the Bible they weren't always good either. God punished them many times throughout the Bible. The Bible says that "you shall be hated of all men for my names sake".

We can argue this until the Sun turns blue, but we all will learn someday.

SteelerEmpire
03-12-2012, 09:58 PM
If you research, one of the main reasons for the persecution is because Jews had began to out-perform the respective general society in the sciences, business, etc... Those societies begun to resent this, thus the persecution. Actually, the Jews "bettered" all of those societies because of this aspect, but still; persecution.

Also. If you equate the murdering of our people as a reason to argue in the opposite direction, then you don't totally understand what's going on. Reference my above quote for this: the Egyptians, Rome, Nazi Germany, etc... If they had a string of proportionate tragedies befall their population to what the Jews had to theirs, they would cease to exist (Nazi Germany), lose all their power (Rome), or be broken down to a 3td world country (Egypt). The Jews have to live in this world as well and are not immortals; they have their fair share of problems as well. But, to be much, much less than 1% of the worlds total population, I think we've showed much more than average resilience and more than average contributions to civilization.

Look at the killing fields in Cambodia, the slaughter of European vs. European over the centuries, the epidemic of slavery and wars in Africa (since slavery) that an estimated 600 million people died as a result. Were all caught up in this mix here on Earth, and all have our turn at tragedy.

But if any "single" creed of people knows science, it's the Jews; but do we reject the existence of God ? No. Do we attempt to recruit people and/or campaign that our way is the right and only way ? No. Your "belief " is your "belief ". If it works for you, embrace it. But if you asked me if Judaism "works" for Jews more than it does't work for Jews, I'd have to say that yes: Judaism works for Jews.

ricardisimo
03-13-2012, 03:54 AM
How else would have they created the nation of Israel? If not for fear of another Holocoaust or similar event they would've likely never sought for their own nation again. IMO the Holocaust was Satan's attempt to destroy them.

If they aren't God's people then why are they so hated? What other race of people is hated so much for doing so little? I agree they aren't all saints but then again in the Bible they weren't always good either. God punished them many times throughout the Bible. The Bible says that "you shall be hated of all men for my names sake".

We can argue this until the Sun turns blue, but we all will learn someday.
Wait a second... you're actually claiming here that God himself somehow pushed for the creation of the state of Israel? And you're actually claiming that being hated is the mark of God's people? Newsflash: Muslims and homosexuals are therefore God's chosen people.

And no. Some of us will never learn. That's the point to religion is to stop asking questions and stop looking for answers.

ricardisimo
03-13-2012, 04:11 AM
If you research, one of the main reasons for the persecution is because Jews had began to out-perform the respective general society in the sciences, business, etc... Those societies begun to resent this, thus the persecution. Actually, the Jews "bettered" all of those societies because of this aspect, but still; persecution.

Also. If you equate the murdering of our people as a reason to argue in the opposite direction, then you don't totally understand what's going on. Reference my above quote for this: the Egyptians, Rome, Nazi Germany, etc... If they had a string of proportionate tragedies befall their population to what the Jews had to theirs, they would cease to exist (Nazi Germany), lose all their power (Rome), or be broken down to a 3td world country (Egypt). The Jews have to live in this world as well and are not immortals; they have their fair share of problems as well. But, to be much, much less than 1% of the worlds total population, I think we've showed much more than average resilience and more than average contributions to civilization.

Look at the killing fields in Cambodia, the slaughter of European vs. European over the centuries, the epidemic of slavery and wars in Africa (since slavery) that an estimated 600 million people died as a result. Were all caught up in this mix here on Earth, and all have our turn at tragedy.

But if any "single" creed of people knows science, it's the Jews; but do we reject the existence of God ? No. Do we attempt to recruit people and/or campaign that our way is the right and only way ? No. Your "belief " is your "belief ". If it works for you, embrace it. But if you asked me if Judaism "works" for Jews more than it does't work for Jews, I'd have to say that yes: Judaism works for Jews.
A lot of revisionist history here. Jews have done well culturally and economically in large North American cities, and that's about it. In Russia they've always been poor and they've always been despised. Within academic circles the past hundred+ years Jews have made major inroads in Europe, and they were still largely reviled. In the US they have done well in most regards, and yet they are still hated in major chunks of the nation. In other words, there is no sociological formula to explain this, as you seem to suggest.

There is a religious one: Christians hate (or at least strongly mistrust) Jews and they always will. Such is Christian brotherly love and tolerance.

As far as Jews knowing science... huh? Why? All Jews? No Jews reject the existence of God? Chomsky, Zinn, Abbie Hoffman etc. are not Jews, I guess. :noidea: I'm not even sure how to approach claims like this. It's pointless and stupid to talk about "the Jews" as though they were monotone and monolithic. That you count yourself among them and still spew this tripe is an insult.

Bayz101
03-13-2012, 04:25 AM
I find it hard to take Hawking seriously in any way. Hell, I can't help but laugh at the funny faces he makes. Wait, am I saying this out loud?

:chuckle:

zn7-fVtT16k

SteelerEmpire
03-13-2012, 11:25 AM
A lot of revisionist history here. Jews have done well culturally and economically in large North American cities, and that's about it.

What ? I just have to laugh at that one.

As far as Jews knowing science... huh? Why? All Jews? No Jews reject the existence of God? Chomsky, Zinn, Abbie Hoffman etc. are not Jews, I guess. I'm not even sure how to approach claims like this. It's pointless and stupid to talk about "the Jews" as though they were monotone and monolithic. That you count yourself among them and still spew this tripe is an insult.

Of course I don't mean "every single Jew"; that's elementary. Lol.

ricardisimo
03-19-2012, 03:38 AM
What ? I just have to laugh at that one.

Laugh away. You made the claim that
If you research, one of the main reasons for the persecution is because Jews had began to out-perform the respective general society in the sciences, business, etc...
I pointed out that in Russia, for example, Jews were always poor, almost exclusively ghetto or shtetl dwellers. And yet they were despised. So much for your resentment theory. Although they began to take great economic strides by the high Middle Ages, they were already reviled by the early Christians for centuries beforehand for their supposed "deicide".

Of course I don't mean "every single Jew"; that's elementary. Lol.

Nothing's elementary with the amount of cultural self-adulation you seem to enjoy, bordering on auto-eroticism. "We Jews are so great, and now let me explain to all of you why We Jews are so great." Whatever. It's old. When Christians engage in that sort of boosting, we all know what's up immediately. And of course Muslims aren't even allowed to consider talking like that or they risk getting deported.

None of this has anything whatsoever to do with Stephen Hawking's assessment of the afterlife. Or does it? I'm at a loss.

mikegrimey
03-27-2012, 07:23 PM
One doesn't need an iq like Hawking to recognize heaven as a fairy tale...

SteelerEmpire
03-27-2012, 08:52 PM
I pointed out that in Russia, for example, Jews were always poor, almost exclusively ghetto or shtetl dwellers.


Was not almost all Russians ? In addition, whatever a particular society "allowed" them to do, they usually excelled in. And didn't Karl Marx (a Jew and most popular proponent of Socialism) even have the biggest hand at changing the entire Russian economy (to Socialism) ? And what about in other parts of the world ?


Nothing's elementary with the amount of cultural self-adulation you seem to enjoy, bordering on auto-eroticism. "We Jews are so great, and now let me explain to all of you why We Jews are so great." Whatever. It's old. When Christians engage in that sort of boosting, we all know what's up immediately. And of course Muslims aren't even allowed to consider talking like that or they risk getting deported.


No. I just disagreed with a statement that you made earlier, and presented a counter argument. So I don't call it "boasting".


None of this has anything whatsoever to do with Stephen Hawking's assessment of the afterlife. Or does it? I'm at a loss.

Good Idea. Back to Hawking.

SteelersinCA
03-27-2012, 11:17 PM
How else would have they created the nation of Israel? If not for fear of another Holocoaust or similar event they would've likely never sought for their own nation again. IMO the Holocaust was Satan's attempt to destroy them.

If they aren't God's people then why are they so hated? What other race of people is hated so much for doing so little? I agree they aren't all saints but then again in the Bible they weren't always good either. God punished them many times throughout the Bible. The Bible says that "you shall be hated of all men for my names sake".

We can argue this until the Sun turns blue, but we all will learn someday.

If the Jews are the chosen people, why are you Christian???

MasterOfPuppets
03-28-2012, 02:35 PM
If the Jews are the chosen people, why are you Christian???
hmmm :scratchchin: very thought provoking question.... if jews are the chosen people , then it only stands to reason their religious practices should be the proper way to worship... where can i get me one of them funny lil hats ?

MACH1
03-28-2012, 04:15 PM
hmmm :scratchchin: very thought provoking question.... if jews are the chosen people , then it only stands to reason their religious practices should be the proper way to worship... where can i get me one of them funny lil hats ?

http://images.productwiki.com/upload/images/propeller_beanie_hat.jpg

tony hipchest
03-28-2012, 08:59 PM
http://images.productwiki.com/upload/images/propeller_beanie_hat.jpg

:laughing: :party: :scholar: :propeller:

SteelerEmpire
03-29-2012, 06:48 AM
hmmm :scratchchin: very thought provoking question.... if jews are the chosen people , then it only stands to reason their religious practices should be the proper way to worship... where can i get me one of them funny lil hats ?

Yea. And I guess Christianity and Islam originated from the planet "Kolob"... and possibly someone else: (lol)

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/13228682.jpg

SteelersinCA
03-30-2012, 12:03 AM
hmmm :scratchchin: very thought provoking question.... if jews are the chosen people , then it only stands to reason their religious practices should be the proper way to worship... where can i get me one of them funny lil hats ?

I'm from the government, I'm here to help.

Vis
05-23-2012, 08:53 PM
Welcome to the bronze age

Fire Haley
05-30-2012, 11:35 AM
I agree with Vis.

Virgin sacrifices are a must if you expect to appease any gods.

steelax04
05-30-2012, 11:39 AM
I agree with Vis.

Virgin sacrifices are a must if you expect to appease any gods.

...and Killer is back! :chuckle:

Vincent
05-30-2012, 12:03 PM
I agree with Vis.

Don't toy with his emotions.

tony hipchest
05-30-2012, 12:20 PM
damn, a Killer AND Vincent sighting on the same day.

maybe the Mayans were correct. :scratchchin:

Vincent
05-30-2012, 12:39 PM
damn, a Killer AND Vincent sighting on the same day.

maybe the Mayans were correct. :scratchchin:

It ain't December.

tony hipchest
05-30-2012, 12:48 PM
It ain't December.thats okay... i aint mayan. :tt03:

ricardisimo
05-30-2012, 01:24 PM
I agree with Vis.

Virgin sacrifices are a must if you expect to appease any gods.
You weren't paying attention during Cabin in the Woods. The Virgin is the only one allowed to live.

Fire Haley
05-30-2012, 05:49 PM
You heathens sure haven't changed - is Mesa still running the propaganda copy&past regime?

Bayz101
05-30-2012, 05:50 PM
You heathens sure haven't changed - is Mesa still running the propaganda copy&past regime?

:rofl:

Welcome back, Killer.

Fire Haley
05-30-2012, 05:51 PM
damn, a Killer AND Vincent sighting on the same day.

he's my scout - I send him in to confuse and deceive