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California-Steel
01-10-2012, 02:44 PM
All you Dick Lebeau has to go people are a bit crazy. The man produces the number 1 or in the top 5 defences every year and you guys say he has to retire and the game has passed him by.

I guess you don't watch other games and don't know what the number 2 and below defences look like. Guess you never seen what giving up 250+ yards a game average looks like. Guess you never seen running back consistantly get 150+ yards on a team.

You guys see a team lose 4 games in a season and feel like that is crap. Guess you never watched Cleavaland and other lose 8, 9, 10, or ever 16 games in Detroits case a few years ago.

All I have to say is IDIOTS!!! No team will win them all or keep every team from moving the ball and scoring. You all seem like the D should not let anyone score ever or even complete a pass, or run for over 1 yard.

We lost, we got TEBOWED. Our D did not have a good game. But that number 1 D bailed out the O all season long by keeping others out of the endzone as best they could. Put the offensive numbers we did on any other team with a D not in the top 5 and we are 8-8 if not worse.

Wake up so called football fans, Coach Lebeau is a Damn good coach with a Damn good scheam that got copied across the league by just about everyone. We lose a game without our starting Saftey, some patch work DB's, a backup NT, and a back up DE and you want to say it is the coach that has let the game pass him by. A coach with the number 1 D in the league.:noidea:

All I can say is be carefull what you wish for. You just might get it.

theplatypus
01-10-2012, 02:46 PM
:drink:

FanSince72
01-10-2012, 02:54 PM
I believe that LeBeau is a great person, a great mentor and a great example of how a man should carry himself through life.

As far as coaching goes, no one can argue with his success in the past but no matter how good a person is at something, they eventually reach a point where they begin to lose a step and that is where I feel LeBeau is now.

When you wrote: "Our D did not have a good game", ask yourself how many times you've said that in the last few seasons. Three or four years ago I can hardly remember ever saying that other than once or twice in a season. But in the last few seasons, I've been saying that once or twice a month and that tells me that something is not what it used to be.

LeBeau has been either playing or coaching football for over 60 years and I don't care how great anyone is, EVERYONE burns out sooner or later and I think that's what's happening with LeBeau. That's not an attack on him and it's not an attack on his record or on the work he's done.

It's just reality.

Rockonsteel
01-10-2012, 02:57 PM
All you Dick Lebeau has to go people are a bit crazy. The man produces the number 1 or in the top 5 defences every year and you guys say he has to retire and the game has passed him by.

I guess you don't watch other games and don't know what the number 2 and below defences look like. Guess you never seen what giving up 250+ yards a game average looks like. Guess you never seen running back consistantly get 150+ yards on a team.

You guys see a team lose 4 games in a season and feel like that is crap. Guess you never watched Cleavaland and other lose 8, 9, 10, or ever 16 games in Detroits case a few years ago.

All I have to say is IDIOTS!!! No team will win them all or keep every team from moving the ball and scoring. You all seem like the D should not let anyone score ever or even complete a pass, or run for over 1 yard.

We lost, we got TEBOWED. Our D did not have a good game. But that number 1 D bailed out the O all season long by keeping others out of the endzone as best they could. Put the offensive numbers we did on any other team with a D not in the top 5 and we are 8-8 if not worse.

Wake up so called football fans, Coach Lebeau is a Damn good coach with a Damn good scheam that got copied across the league by just about everyone. We lose a game without our starting Saftey, some patch work DB's, a backup NT, and a back up DE and you want to say it is the coach that has let the game pass him by. A coach with the number 1 D in the league.:noidea:

All I can say is be carefull what you wish for. You just might get it.

That was a pretty well done rant. I agree with most of it. The D has slipped a notch or two though. True, they had the #1 ranked scoring and yardage D, but we were also DEAD last in turnovers, and were pretty bad at getting to the QB, with the understanding that JH and Wood were hurt a large part of the year.

I'm not calling for LeBeau's head, but I do wonder if it's time for him to retire and get a fresh take on things.

But, even with that being the case, if this offense could consistently put up 25-30 pts a game, this team would be truly lethal. unfortunately, the D is gonna give up some stuff. A consistent, high scoring offense, would go a long way to take some pressure off the D. They played right into the Broncos hand by settling for FGs and not putting that game out of reach early.

I am calling...no I'm SCREAMING for Bruce Arians head on a platter!!!

NOW SOMEBODY GO AND BRING IT TO ME!!!!

Rockon

StainlessStill
01-10-2012, 03:05 PM
I think the ironic thing about what happened Sunday was that wasn't the defense we whipped together that LeBeau is known for. I literally had to check the coaching depth chart to see if the name "Tim Lewis" had crept up along anywhere. LeBeau had the right mindset but the entire make-up of the defense we wanted to attack with was QUICKLY debunked and thwarted early.

I'll never truly understand on how and why we didn't make adjustments to go back to the defense LeBeau is known for. Disguising the defensive alignment and using zone coverage behind a blitzing, aggressive bunch up front to force the QB into making quick throws into coverage. This Steelers coaching staff is the WORST at making adjustments. That must change.

Fire Arians
01-10-2012, 03:07 PM
What the #2 and #3 defenses look like, like the ravens 49ers or texans? They are all playing better defense than us

Curtain_of_Steel
01-10-2012, 03:12 PM
I have no issues with DL... He can stay as long as he wants. But we do need to get more creative on the blitz, as it apparent we will not get what we think is a holding call on our linebackers.

Something has to change if we the calls dont come our way.

LVSteelersfan
01-10-2012, 03:27 PM
The Broncos schooled James Harrison. He did not hold containment on his side. They took advantage of his overagressive tendencies and it worked to perfection. Tebow blew past him more than once. But I am still pissed that we got the score tied and Arian's pathetic offensive plan could not get us the game winning field goal at the end. That stupid empty backfield set that they kept running with a gimpy QB had me screaming at Arians the whole game. IDIOT. LeBeau is probably going to need to retire soon due to age but I have nothing against him. He just got totally outcoached by the Denver coaches. That happens.

FanSince72
01-10-2012, 03:37 PM
That was a pretty well done rant. I agree with most of it. The D has slipped a notch or two though. True, they had the #1 ranked scoring and yardage D, but we were also DEAD last in turnovers, and were pretty bad at getting to the QB, with the understanding that JH and Wood were hurt a large part of the year.

I'm not calling for LeBeau's head, but I do wonder if it's time for him to retire and get a fresh take on things.

But, even with that being the case, if this offense could consistently put up 25-30 pts a game, this team would be truly lethal. unfortunately, the D is gonna give up some stuff. A consistent, high scoring offense, would go a long way to take some pressure off the D. They played right into the Broncos hand by settling for FGs and not putting that game out of reach early.

I am calling...no I'm SCREAMING for Bruce Arians head on a platter!!!

NOW SOMEBODY GO AND BRING IT TO ME!!!!

Rockon

As offensive coordinators go, I think we could do a lot better than Arians.

But in fairness, he's not the reason why we can't get a team off the field on a 3rd and 12.
And if we can't get a team off the field, then we can't put our offense out there and if we can't put the offense out there, we can't score points.

SoCalFan
01-10-2012, 03:42 PM
I agree! With all the injuries and having some older players, there is only so much the man can do, hes not the one on the field playing! Now his counterpart on offense, Ha,ha, the two men should trade first names!!!

plenewken
01-10-2012, 03:43 PM
What the #2 and #3 defenses look like, like the ravens 49ers or texans? They are all playing better defense than us

The "Steel Curtain" has been history for several years now.

Does this mean that Dick LeBeau should be fired? No, but I don't want the Steelers to adopt the same complacency as PennState with Joe Paterno. It's time to react IMO.

This being said the problem is much more severe with the Offense and I do hope that we'll have a new OC soon.

ricardisimo
01-10-2012, 03:54 PM
What the #2 and #3 defenses look like, like the ravens 49ers or texans? They are all playing better defense than us
No, they are not. For some reason, in the eyes of several of you, Lebeau is the only DC in the league who played a soft schedule. I've already discussed the 49ers and Ravens D elsewhere, so what about the Texans?Well, they went up against some mighty, mighty offensive juggernauts this year, like the Colts (twice), Jacksonville (twice), Tennessee (twice), Cleveland, Miami, TB and Oakland... and they lost a few of those games. They lost almost every single game against really good offenses, like Carolina and New Orleans.

What's with you people? Why the love for other teams? It's time for everyone to take several steps backwards and say to yourselves:
OK, this last loss was tough to take, and I'm just really upset about it. I'm completely wrong about Dick Lebeau, and I admit it. My Steelers have spoiled me, and I expect a Lombardi after every season now. It's time to start looking forward to the draft and the endless possibilities for next season.

There. Was that so hard? :thumbsup:

FanSince72
01-10-2012, 05:26 PM
Or you could just say this:

"Dick LeBeau is a living legend, but it's time to face reality.

Even Johnny Carson knew when it was time to quit and it's time for Dick to do the same and let someone else take a crack at it."


There.
That's just as easy to say.

tanda10506
01-10-2012, 05:53 PM
What exactly do you expect to get from LeBeau's replacement? The game plan was great, make a horrible passer beat Ike Taylor and Troy Polamalu while containing the run. It would have worked if not for Taylor all game and Mundy also from time to time. LeBeau changed to beat Brady and it worked, he changed to beat Tebow and if Ike doesn't get flogged all day it probably works and that's with half the defense being second string players mind you. I don't agree we were the #1 defense, but we were good. And that's with major injuries all year, Timmons playing 3 different positions, Farrior being too old and slow to cover anybody, and Aaron Smith holding us back the first 4 games. When the offense can at least carry their own weight and don't put the defense in screwed up positions game after game, possession after possession, then we'll start legitimately seeing what LeBeau has left. You want to get rid of a coach get rid of Arians, then again that goes without saying lol.

Whodis
01-10-2012, 05:59 PM
That was a pretty well done rant. I agree with most of it. The D has slipped a notch or two though. True, they had the #1 ranked scoring and yardage D, but we were also DEAD last in turnovers, and were pretty bad at getting to the QB, with the understanding that JH and Wood were hurt a large part of the year.

I'm not calling for LeBeau's head, but I do wonder if it's time for him to retire and get a fresh take on things.

But, even with that being the case, if this offense could consistently put up 25-30 pts a game, this team would be truly lethal. unfortunately, the D is gonna give up some stuff. A consistent, high scoring offense, would go a long way to take some pressure off the D. They played right into the Broncos hand by settling for FGs and not putting that game out of reach early.

I am calling...no I'm SCREAMING for Bruce Arians head on a platter!!!

NOW SOMEBODY GO AND BRING IT TO ME!!!!

Rockon

I don't need to post it because you said it... The defense has turned vanilla, but the offense has been under achieving for years!

ricardisimo
01-10-2012, 06:09 PM
Or you could just say this:
"Dick LeBeau is a living legend, but it's time to face reality.

Even Johnny Carson knew when it was time to quit and it's time for Dick to do the same and let someone else take a crack at it."There.
That's just as easy to say.
Yes, you're right. #1 overall in yards and points means it's time to hang it up. Oh, no no... wait. That's wrong. I meant to say "one bad showing at a particularly bad time means it's time to hang it up." In fact, everyone on the team should hang it up. Let's start over fresh.
:rolleyes:

tony hipchest
01-10-2012, 07:49 PM
No, they are not. For some reason, in the eyes of several of you, Lebeau is the only DC in the league who played a soft schedule. I've already discussed the 49ers and Ravens D elsewhere, so what about the Texans?Well, they went up against some mighty, mighty offensive juggernauts this year, like the Colts (twice), Jacksonville (twice), Tennessee (twice), Cleveland, Miami, TB and Oakland... and they lost a few of those games. They lost almost every single game against really good offenses, like Carolina and New Orleans.

:like you, i have pointed this out several times as well. and the obvious has been ignored multiple times by the exact same people who keep beating the "baltimore/san fransico/houston are superior defenses" and "the game has passed lebeau by" drum.

:coffee:

this point wont be addressed because those ignoring it know it CANT be addressed w/o immediately shooting down their "take".


lalalalalalalala!

FanSince72
01-10-2012, 08:07 PM
Yes, you're right. #1 overall in yards and points means it's time to hang it up. Oh, no no... wait. That's wrong. I meant to say "one bad showing at a particularly bad time means it's time to hang it up." In fact, everyone on the team should hang it up. Let's start over fresh.
:rolleyes:

Unlike many here, I have no problem looking at reality.

The fact is that the "Zone Blitz" is a dinosaur, our pass rush is nowhere near what it used to be and we have a secondary that leaks like a sieve.

And that's not from just "one bad showing at a particularly bad time" but that's what it's been like for that last few seasons. There was a time when I'd see us have a team in a third and long situation and I could almost guarantee the next play would be a punt. But in these last couple of seasons, I cringe at a third and long because most of the time it ends up not just in a first down, but a first down after a 20 or 30 yard gain.

I don't know what you're looking at but I'm seeing a defense that no longer bothers other teams and one that is not adapting to the pass-first / pass-quick offenses that are now becoming the norm. The image of knuckle-dragging, quarterback beating defenses is becoming a thing of the past and they're being replaced by pass-oriented defenses with an emphasis on speed and agility instead of brute force.

For the last three years we've desperately needed better CB's and Safeties, but instead we groom a new crop of linebackers and pass-rushers as if we're in some kind of time warp.

Aren't you tired of worrying that a team starting on their own10-yard-line trailing us by 5-points with less than two-minutes to go is no guarantee of a win? Aren't you tired of watching some second-rate QB move that team down-field as if there was no one else out there?

I am.

The name, "Pittsburgh Steelers" used to conjure an image an impenetrable defense where other teams were lucky to score field goals. But lately that name brings to mind images of missed tackles, blitzes that arrive too late, cornerbacks who couldn't keep someone from throwing a ball of paper into a wastebasket and who give up passing yards in groups of ten and first downs as if they're door prizes.

It can't all be about injuries or lack of talent so there must be more to it than that.
And if the lack of production of our offense can be laid at the feet of Bruce Arians, then the inability of our defense to stop a team from turning what should be a cakewalk into a nail-biter ought to be laid at the feet of Dick LeBeau.

tony hipchest
01-10-2012, 08:22 PM
The fact is that the "Zone Blitz" is a dinosaur, our pass rush is nowhere near what it used to be and we have a secondary that leaks like a sieve.


.

:doh: this is SO FAR from fact it isnt even funny. lebeaus zone blitz scheme principles, has led the league in defense in 5 of the past 11 years, won 2 championships out of 3 sb appearances and has more than HALF the league adopting the 3-4 defense as its base!!!!

holy shit, i cant beleive some of the crap people will come up with to defend arians.

There was a time when I'd see us have a team in a third and long situation and I could almost guarantee the next play would be a punt. But in these last couple of seasons, I cringe at a third and long because most of the time it ends up not just in a first down, but a first down after a 20 or 30 yard gain.
definitely gonna take some statistical analysis (much like ALL coaches above a HS level do in preparation) to back up this claim

MACH1
01-10-2012, 08:28 PM
Unlike many here, I have no problem looking at reality.

The fact is that the "Zone Blitz" is a dinosaur, our pass rush is nowhere near what it used to be and we have a secondary that leaks like a sieve.

And that's not from just "one bad showing at a particularly bad time" but that's what it's been like for that last few seasons. There was a time when I'd see us have a team in a third and long situation and I could almost guarantee the next play would be a punt. But in these last couple of seasons, I cringe at a third and long because most of the time it ends up not just in a first down, but a first down after a 20 or 30 yard gain.

I don't know what you're looking at but I'm seeing a defense that no longer bothers other teams and one that is not adapting to the pass-first / pass-quick offenses that are now becoming the norm. The image of knuckle-dragging, quarterback beating defenses is becoming a thing of the past and they're being replaced by pass-oriented defenses with an emphasis on speed and agility instead of brute force.

For the last three years we've desperately needed better CB's and Safeties, but instead we groom a new crop of linebackers and pass-rushers as if we're in some kind of time warp.

Aren't you tired of worrying that a team starting on their own10-yard-line trailing us by 5-points with less than two-minutes to go is no guarantee of a win? Aren't you tired of watching some second-rate QB move that team down-field as if there was no one else out there?

I am.

The name, "Pittsburgh Steelers" used to conjure an image an impenetrable defense where other teams were lucky to score field goals. But lately that name brings to mind images of missed tackles, blitzes that arrive too late, cornerbacks who couldn't keep someone from throwing a ball of paper into a wastebasket and who give up passing yards in groups of ten and first downs as if they're door prizes.

It can't all be about injuries or lack of talent so there must be more to it than that.
And if the lack of production of our offense can be laid at the feet of Bruce Arians, then the inability of our defense to stop a team from turning what should be a cakewalk into a nail-biter ought to be laid at the feet of Dick LeBeau.

And I cringe when it's third and one with a 5 wide empty backfield and the receivers all run 20-30 yd patterns.

Atlanta Dan
01-10-2012, 09:03 PM
It can't all be about injuries or lack of talent so there must be more to it than that.
.

How about the rules changes?:noidea: - if 2 QBs break a passing yardage record that has been around since 1984 in the same season consider the possibility that with today's flag football rules no defense is going to shut down a team like the Steelers of several years ago or the 2000 Ravens - it would be like expecting to see a pitchers' duel every game during baseball's steroid era. Relative to the rest of the league the Steeler D had a prety fair year

Which gets back to why Arians does not get a pass - the offense has consistently underperformed relative to the rest of the league during his 5 years as OC while the defense has consistently outperformed relative to the rest of the league during that same period.

Offensive ranking

2011 Points - 21 Yards - 17
2010 Points - 12 Yards - 14
2009 Points - 12 Yards - 7
2008 Points - 20 Yards - 22
2007 Points - 9 Yards - 17

Defensive ranking

2011 Points - 1 Yards - 1
2010 Points - 1 Yards - 2
2009 Points - 12 Yards - 5
2008 Points - 1 Yards - 2
2007 Points - 2 Yards - 1

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/

Sorry the past season apparently fell short of your expectations because an injury ravaged team only went 12 - 4.

Ed. B. of the P-G sums up that perspective better than me

what should be the fans biggest takeaway from the season?

Ed Bouchette: Did you enjoy watching it? That's about all you can expect. You cannot bring the hardware home every year, even though there is a good portion of Steelers fans who don't believe that.

http://plus.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/pro-sports/steelers/114321-ed-bouchettes-steelers-chat-transcript-11012

:drink:

desTROY43
01-10-2012, 10:23 PM
The blame can't all be put on LeBeau. There's only so much a coach can do to work around injuries. When you have a couple of your anchors go out of the game due to an injury, that changes the whole game plan. It's 50 50, the coach calls the plays and the players have to execute it to make it work. I put much of the blame on the FO for not having the quality back ups to fill in when needed. Keep LeBeau, he's still worthy of coaching a good defense, I do agree on dumping Arians, that should be priority # 2 , O-line being priority #1. Two tight ends lined up in the backfield with your back? obvious run play.

defence
01-10-2012, 11:02 PM
How about the rules changes?:noidea: - if 2 QBs break a passing yardage record that has been around since 1984 in the same season consider the possibility that with today's flag football rules no defense is going to shut down a team like the Steelers of several years ago or the 2000 Ravens - it would be like expecting to see a pitchers' duel every game during baseball's steroid era. Relative to the rest of the league the Steeler D had a prety fair year

Which gets back to why Arians does not get a pass - the offense has consistently underperformed relative to the rest of the league during his 5 years as OC while the defense has consistently outperformed relative to the rest of the league during that same period.

Offensive ranking

2011 Points - 21 Yards - 17
2010 Points - 12 Yards - 14
2009 Points - 12 Yards - 7
2008 Points - 20 Yards - 22
2007 Points - 9 Yards - 17

Defensive ranking

2011 Points - 1 Yards - 1
2010 Points - 1 Yards - 2
2009 Points - 12 Yards - 5
2008 Points - 1 Yards - 2
2007 Points - 2 Yards - 1

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/

Sorry the past season apparently fell short of your expectations because an injury ravaged team only went 12 - 4.

Ed. B. of the P-G sums up that perspective better than me

what should be the fans biggest takeaway from the season?

Ed Bouchette: Did you enjoy watching it? That's about all you can expect. You cannot bring the hardware home every year, even though there is a good portion of Steelers fans who don't believe that.

http://plus.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/pro-sports/steelers/114321-ed-bouchettes-steelers-chat-transcript-11012

:drink:

Very well said!! Ariens should be fired immediately!! With all the talent we have on offence; there is absolutely no excuse for these numbers!! With that said; i still believe Tomlin needs to put his stamp on this team and get rid of both!! As i have stated in other posts; Lebau is a legend and we all need to appreciate everything the man has done but like others i believe the game has passed him by!! I am not big on stats; but this d just has not played situational d all year!! Couldn't get off the field too many times!! Couldn't get sacks when they really needed them or picks!! I do understand the players have to execute; but he has to be accountable and this is the nfl!! His denver playcalling was horrible!! As some experts put it "arrogant" Taylor got burned for 204 passing yards not including the pass interference!! When was he gonna get him some help and change his scheme??? But i would be sooooo happy if we just get rid of ariens; i can live with lebau as he is a fighter and will learn from this!!!

MasterOfPuppets
01-10-2012, 11:08 PM
I believe that LeBeau is a great person, a great mentor and a great example of how a man should carry himself through life.

As far as coaching goes, no one can argue with his success in the past but no matter how good a person is at something, they eventually reach a point where they begin to lose a step and that is where I feel LeBeau is now.

When you wrote: "Our D did not have a good game", ask yourself how many times you've said that in the last few seasons. Three or four years ago I can hardly remember ever saying that other than once or twice in a season. But in the last few seasons, I've been saying that once or twice a month and that tells me that something is not what it used to be.

LeBeau has been either playing or coaching football for over 60 years and I don't care how great anyone is, EVERYONE burns out sooner or later and I think that's what's happening with LeBeau. That's not an attack on him and it's not an attack on his record or on the work he's done.

It's just reality.
would you like to tell us who's defense is better ? more consistent ? sure they've shit the bed a few times over the years , but what team hasn't ? bruce arians offense sucks 10 to 12 games a year. lebeau's D might suck 3 or 4 games a year ..:noidea:

tony hipchest
01-10-2012, 11:14 PM
what should be the fans biggest takeaway from the season?

Ed Bouchette: Did you enjoy watching it? That's about all you can expect. You cannot bring the hardware home every year, even though there is a good portion of Steelers fans who don't believe that.

http://plus.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/pro-sports/steelers/114321-ed-bouchettes-steelers-chat-transcript-11012

:drink:

ed, also dropped this little nugget of an opinion-

Steel Curtain Rising: Which Steeler gave you the biggest positive surpirse, and which was the biggest disappointment of 2011?

Ed Bouchette: Antonio Brown had to be the biggest, leaping from No. 4 receiver to team MVP.

Biggest disappointment collectively had to be the lack of points on offense and the running game.


overall, i am pleased with the defensive effort this season. i sure woulda liked to see the final game completed with a healthy woodley, hampton, keisel and clark on the field as they represent more than a third of the starting unit.

theres also a lingering silence about casey hamptons injury. i gotta wonder if it was caused by a "legal" chop block, to begin the game (much like in the ravens opener).

after the opener, hampton and the team didnt hold their tongue. yet this year theres nothing but silence. did james harrison speak for the team with a "legal" hit of his own? unwritten code of the league says that these matters usually get settled on the field. :noidea:

tony hipchest
01-10-2012, 11:21 PM
would you like to tell us who's defense is better ? more consistent ? sure they've shit the bed a few times over the years , but what team hasn't ? bruce arians offense sucks 10 to 12 games a year. lebeau's D might suck 3 or 4 games a year ..:noidea:i brought this up after the horrible 09 season when we missed the playoffs after the SB and went on that wretched 5 game slide.

excluding defensive scores and special team points (fg's) our defense prevented the opponents offense from scoring more than 2 TD's in 12 of the 16 games.

our offense failed to score more than 2 TD's in 12 of the 16 games.

a bruce arians offense is only capable of putting up more than 4 offensive td's in a single game about once every 2 years.

:hunch:

since then, qb's such as brees, brady, rivers, manning, stafford, rodgers, smith etc, are shattering their own records and personal bests while our very own ben is in the same league as flacco and the bungles rookie red rifle in terms of td's thrown vs int's.... :noidea:

MasterOfPuppets
01-10-2012, 11:32 PM
i brought this up after the horrible 09 season when we missed the playoffs after the SB and went on that wretched 5 game slide.

excluding defensive scores and special team points (fg's) our defense prevented the opponents offense from scoring more than 2 TD's in 12 of the 16 games.

our offense failed to score more than 2 TD's in 12 of the 16 games.

a bruce arians offense is only capable of putting up more than 4 offensive td's in a single game about once every 2 years.

:hunch:

since then, qb's such as brees, brady, rivers, manning, stafford, rodgers, smith etc, are shattering their own records and personal bests while our very own ben is in the same league as flacco and the bungles rookie red rifle in terms of td's thrown vs int's.... :noidea:
not to mention with the receiving corp upgrades to boot... they still can't put TD'S on the board...:doh:

LayingTheWoodley56
01-10-2012, 11:53 PM
Amen brotha couldn't have said it better these people are nuts indeed perfect thread title

tony hipchest
01-10-2012, 11:55 PM
not to mention with the receiving corp upgrades to boot... they still can't put TD'S on the board...:doh:

in 2001 (with kordell stewart at QB) the steelers were 7th in points scored and 7th in total yards/game. (defensively 1st in ypg and 3rd in ppg).

in 2005 (1st year with NEW OC) the steelers were 9th in points scored and 15th in yards/game. (defensively 4th in ypg and 3rd in ppg).

anyone notice a disturbing trend here? despite the rule changes that heavilly favor the offense our defense has remained constant over a decade while our offense is actually regressing despite a mature "elite" franchise qb.

California-Steel
01-11-2012, 03:53 AM
:banging:How can anyone make the statement that the game has passed someone by when they are consistantly ranked 5 or better out of 32. So the game has not passed 31 other coaches by when we are ranked number 1.

You really don't see how stupid that sounds to make that statement? Man your D is ranked number one. You keep people out of the endzone and you don't give up many yards. But the game has passed you by. HOW!!! WTF!!! Do you even think, or just spew whatever crap comes to mind.

Same D with an O that can put up 21 on average may (no gurantee people) have gotten us to the second round. Green Bay and New England have the 31 and 32 D's in the league but yet they both had better records than us. Why? They can put the ball in the endzone more times than their D lets other in the endzone.

When you say the game passed someone by it would mean that what they do does not work. Uhmmm I hate to tell you this but when you are the number 1 anything then what you are doing is working and nothing has passed you by.

IDIOTS!!! :banging:

ricardisimo
01-11-2012, 04:44 AM
Unlike many here, I have no problem looking at reality.

The fact is that the "Zone Blitz" is a dinosaur, our pass rush is nowhere near what it used to be and we have a secondary that leaks like a sieve.

And that's not from just "one bad showing at a particularly bad time" but that's what it's been like for that last few seasons. There was a time when I'd see us have a team in a third and long situation and I could almost guarantee the next play would be a punt. But in these last couple of seasons, I cringe at a third and long because most of the time it ends up not just in a first down, but a first down after a 20 or 30 yard gain.

I don't know what you're looking at but I'm seeing a defense that no longer bothers other teams and one that is not adapting to the pass-first / pass-quick offenses that are now becoming the norm. The image of knuckle-dragging, quarterback beating defenses is becoming a thing of the past and they're being replaced by pass-oriented defenses with an emphasis on speed and agility instead of brute force.

For the last three years we've desperately needed better CB's and Safeties, but instead we groom a new crop of linebackers and pass-rushers as if we're in some kind of time warp.

Aren't you tired of worrying that a team starting on their own10-yard-line trailing us by 5-points with less than two-minutes to go is no guarantee of a win? Aren't you tired of watching some second-rate QB move that team down-field as if there was no one else out there?

I am.

The name, "Pittsburgh Steelers" used to conjure an image an impenetrable defense where other teams were lucky to score field goals. But lately that name brings to mind images of missed tackles, blitzes that arrive too late, cornerbacks who couldn't keep someone from throwing a ball of paper into a wastebasket and who give up passing yards in groups of ten and first downs as if they're door prizes.

It can't all be about injuries or lack of talent so there must be more to it than that.
And if the lack of production of our offense can be laid at the feet of Bruce Arians, then the inability of our defense to stop a team from turning what should be a cakewalk into a nail-biter ought to be laid at the feet of Dick LeBeau.
I don't even know where to begin with this. Defense is so, so unbelievably far from being the main problem on this team that I feel dirty having wasted so much ink (even virtual ink) on defending Dick Lebeau and his "vanilla" zone blitz. That you would judge this D not by its own merits but rather by a misguided mythic rewriting of Pittsburgh defenses past is just misguided.

The '78 Steelers, arguably the greatest team ever and our greatest defense, still lost games, still gave up 24 points to Houston and KC and 31 to Dallas, and still let Archie Manning throw for 344 yards. Other teams do get paid to show up and play. They don't have a Steelers clause that says they can take the Steelers game off because we're so scary. And you know what? They never have had that clause. Weird, huh?

Bill Cowher's defenses were no better than Dick Lebeau's defenses of late. Some were significantly worse. There is one significant difference: Cowher had the rather pleasant habit of grinding the game out once he had even a 3-point lead, keeping his D off the field entirely, something I'd like to see more of. But this has nothing whatsoever to do with Dick Lebeau and his zone blitz (about which you are completely and utterly misguided, by the way). Sorry.

FanSince72
01-11-2012, 10:12 AM
I don't even know where to begin with this. Defense is so, so unbelievably far from being the main problem on this team that I feel dirty having wasted so much ink (even virtual ink) on defending Dick Lebeau and his "vanilla" zone blitz. That you would judge this D not by its own merits but rather by a misguided mythic rewriting of Pittsburgh defenses past is just misguided.

The '78 Steelers, arguably the greatest team ever and our greatest defense, still lost games, still gave up 24 points to Houston and KC and 31 to Dallas, and still let Archie Manning throw for 344 yards. Other teams do get paid to show up and play. They don't have a Steelers clause that says they can take the Steelers game off because we're so scary. And you know what? They never have had that clause. Weird, huh?

Bill Cowher's defenses were no better than Dick Lebeau's defenses of late. Some were significantly worse. There is one significant difference: Cowher had the rather pleasant habit of grinding the game out once he had even a 3-point lead, keeping his D off the field entirely, something I'd like to see more of. But this has nothing whatsoever to do with Dick Lebeau and his zone blitz (about which you are completely and utterly misguided, by the way). Sorry.

No mythology here.

I'm just tired of watching teams walk up and down the field on us because they saw something in LeBeau's game plan that demonstrated an obvious workaround and we just sit there and let them work around it.

How many years is it going to take, for example, before LeBeau gets up one morning and realizes that we need better CB's and a better secondary plan overall?

Yet year after year we get more linebackers.
Lebeau's defenses are OK, but they also tend to be predictable. If we play a soft schedule we get by with it, but when we play stronger teams, or teams that run unconventional offenses, that predictability becomes a weakness.

As far as "Zone Blitz" goes, you're taking that phrase way too literally. All I mean by that is to use it as a reference to a defensive scheme that at one time represented a true innovation in football but is now something that has been analyzed and copied to the point where it doesn't mean anything anymore -- it's just "LeBeau's defense".
It's become more of a cliche than a truly effective scheme and one that can work from time to time but lacks "newness" and seems to be relied upon to cover weaknesses elsewhere (like in the secondary).

This also isn't about defending Arians either.
I've said that we can do a lot better than Arians and I meant that. The only reason I bring him up is that everyone wants to throw him under the bus when the offense doesn't produce yet when the defense mails it in, there are five thousand reasons why that's true and none of them involve LeBeau.

I know he's a god, but come on.

And please stop with all of the statistical bullshit.
Statistics can be made to say anything you want them to say (politicians have known that for years) and that doesn't change the fact that we suck on third down and we struggle to get teams off the field. If you can't see that, then you're just not looking.

As defenses go, we're certainly not bad, but we lack innovation, we suffer against teams that don't use traditional drop-back passing, we can't seem to stop simple screen passes and blitzing does little when the ball goes from snap to release in less than two seconds (which is fast becoming the "new normal").

I'd like to see us change things around and become a little less front line / linebacker oriented and more quick play / pass oriented. But when we can't even address the obvious problems like a lousy secondary, what kind of innovation can we expect? I don't think LeBeau is blind to what needs to be done, it's just that the changes we really need to make will take a couple of years and at 73, I just think LeBeau finds it easier to stay the course rather than commit to addressing our problems and perhaps re-designing a defense for a more modern game.

I just don't think he's up to it and maybe it's time to find someone who has the inclination to look at things differently and has the time to experiment.

stb_steeler
01-11-2012, 11:40 AM
I think the ironic thing about what happened Sunday was that wasn't the defense we whipped together that LeBeau is known for. I literally had to check the coaching depth chart to see if the name "Tim Lewis" had crept up along anywhere. LeBeau had the right mindset but the entire make-up of the defense we wanted to attack with was QUICKLY debunked and thwarted early.

I'll never truly understand on how and why we didn't make adjustments to go back to the defense LeBeau is known for. Disguising the defensive alignment and using zone coverage behind a blitzing, aggressive bunch up front to force the QB into making quick throws into coverage. This Steelers coaching staff is the WORST at making adjustments. That must change.

I'll never understand why we cant do man to man coverages more....Do they think that is not needed for most teams...I dont get it.

ricardisimo
01-11-2012, 01:13 PM
No mythology here.

I'm just tired of watching teams walk up and down the field on us because they saw something in LeBeau's game plan that demonstrated an obvious workaround and we just sit there and let them work around it.

How many years is it going to take, for example, before LeBeau gets up one morning and realizes that we need better CB's and a better secondary plan overall?

Yet year after year we get more linebackers.
Lebeau's defenses are OK, but they also tend to be predictable. If we play a soft schedule we get by with it, but when we play stronger teams, or teams that run unconventional offenses, that predictability becomes a weakness.

As far as "Zone Blitz" goes, you're taking that phrase way too literally. All I mean by that is to use it as a reference to a defensive scheme that at one time represented a true innovation in football but is now something that has been analyzed and copied to the point where it doesn't mean anything anymore -- it's just "LeBeau's defense".
It's become more of a cliche than a truly effective scheme and one that can work from time to time but lacks "newness" and seems to be relied upon to cover weaknesses elsewhere (like in the secondary).

This also isn't about defending Arians either.
I've said that we can do a lot better than Arians and I meant that. The only reason I bring him up is that everyone wants to throw him under the bus when the offense doesn't produce yet when the defense mails it in, there are five thousand reasons why that's true and none of them involve LeBeau.

I know he's a god, but come on.

And please stop with all of the statistical bullshit.
Statistics can be made to say anything you want them to say (politicians have known that for years) and that doesn't change the fact that we suck on third down and we struggle to get teams off the field. If you can't see that, then you're just not looking.

As defenses go, we're certainly not bad, but we lack innovation, we suffer against teams that don't use traditional drop-back passing, we can't seem to stop simple screen passes and blitzing does little when the ball goes from snap to release in less than two seconds (which is fast becoming the "new normal").

I'd like to see us change things around and become a little less front line / linebacker oriented and more quick play / pass oriented. But when we can't even address the obvious problems like a lousy secondary, what kind of innovation can we expect? I don't think LeBeau is blind to what needs to be done, it's just that the changes we really need to make will take a couple of years and at 73, I just think LeBeau finds it easier to stay the course rather than commit to addressing our problems and perhaps re-designing a defense for a more modern game.

I just don't think he's up to it and maybe it's time to find someone who has the inclination to look at things differently and has the time to experiment.

"Walk up and down the field on us"? When? What are you talking about? The defense lost one game for us this year (I still say this last one was a joint effort.) It happens. The NFL permits other teams t win. It's in the rulebook. So, other than the second Baltimore game, when did this happen.

FanSince72
01-11-2012, 02:18 PM
"Walk up and down the field on us"? When? What are you talking about? The defense lost one game for us this year (I still say this last one was a joint effort.) It happens. The NFL permits other teams t win. It's in the rulebook. So, other than the second Baltimore game, when did this happen.

Look, I'm probably not explaining myself as well as I could and right now I really don't feel like trying to figure that out. I still think that our D has become predictable and in some cases stale, but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

What I'm trying to say in a general sense is that I don't want to see LeBeau turn into someone like Noll who in my opinion stayed way too long and was basically mailing it in by the time he quit.

That happened because Cope anointed him "Emperor" , the fan base agreed and after that, no one had the guts to tell him that it might be time to move on and we all sat around waiting for him to make that decision himself. That detracted a lot from what Noll accomplished and the same thing can happen with LeBeau.

Sixburgher
01-11-2012, 02:42 PM
What I'm trying to say in a general sense is that I don't want to see LeBeau turn into someone like Noll who in my opinion stayed way too long and was basically mailing it in by the time he quit.

That happened because Cope anointed him "Emperor" , the fan base agreed and after that, no one had the guts to tell him that it might be time to move on and we all sat around waiting for him to make that decision himself. That detracted a lot from what Noll accomplished and the same thing can happen with LeBeau.

I thought the 1984 and 1989 seasons were two of Noll's better coaching jobs, personally. Getting that 1984 squad to a conference championship and that 1989 squad within a whisker of another was nothing short of brilliant coaching. The fact is, outside of a few future hall of fame holdovers from the 70s dynasty at the end of their rope, the majority of the rosters of the Steelers teams throughout the 1980s were wall to wall mediocrity at best.

Kanata-Steeler
01-11-2012, 04:34 PM
Comon' now, Chuck Noll delivered 4 Rings in what?, 5 seasons (2 back-to-back = 4 !!!)
So, I personally, couldn't give give a rat's-petoby what Chuck did before, OR After that crowning-NFL never-to-be-repeated achievment !!!
I would SALUTE that guy's excrement -no matter where it dropped !!!

ricardisimo
01-11-2012, 04:54 PM
Look, I'm probably not explaining myself as well as I could and right now I really don't feel like trying to figure that out. I still think that our D has become predictable and in some cases stale, but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

What I'm trying to say in a general sense is that I don't want to see LeBeau turn into someone like Noll who in my opinion stayed way too long and was basically mailing it in by the time he quit.

That happened because Cope anointed him "Emperor" , the fan base agreed and after that, no one had the guts to tell him that it might be time to move on and we all sat around waiting for him to make that decision himself. That detracted a lot from what Noll accomplished and the same thing can happen with LeBeau.
So let it happen. His defense is indeed very, very predictable. I predicted it would be #1 this year and I was right. :applaudit: All the other teams kept expecting him to trick them, the way Bruce Arians does on offense, but he fooled them with his predictability. Tricky Dick!

What you are saying makes no sense. If the D this year was even just mediocre, then yeah, we could have this discussion. But it was the number one defense in the entire national football league, both in terms of yards and points. I'll ask you again: do the Steelers strike you as the type of team that punishes success? Does Dick Lebeau strike you as the type of coach who thinks that finishing #1 overall is a sign that he's lost a step?

What was predictable, other than his success yet again? I just don't get where you are coming from. :noidea:

California-Steel
01-11-2012, 05:05 PM
Conversation:

Dad: Son what's wrong with your report card?

Son: What do you mean Dad?

Dad: You seem to be letting school pass you by.

Son: Why do you say that Dad?

Dad: Well you seem to be getting the same grades every year. I don't see you improving like the other kids.

Son: Sorry Dad, I'll try to do better next time.

Dad: Yeah you do that. I am not going to stand for these same old A+ grades anymore. Your friend went from a D to a C+. He made improvements and is doing things.

Son: Walks off scratching his head wondering if that is really his Dad.

You people are really NUTS!!! Think about the comment "the game has passed you by". I guess there really are dumb people in the world. WOW! :noidea:

Christian Snyder
01-11-2012, 06:29 PM
I like Dick LeBeau and will be very sad to see him retire when he does. He is probably the best d-coordinator in the NFL. I don't understand why people complain about being the #1 defense in the NFL???? Is there something better than #1 that I'm not aware of???

ricardisimo
01-11-2012, 06:32 PM
I like Dick LeBeau and will be very sad to see him retire when he does. He is probably the best d-coordinator in the NFL. I don't understand why people complain about being the #1 defense in the NFL???? Is there something better than #1 that I'm not aware of???
Yes. Being "unpredictable". You know, like sucking one year, then being good the next, then mediocre, then sucking again. That's true greatness.

I think Bruce Arians sets the bar. Lebeau will never measure up.

tony hipchest
01-11-2012, 08:07 PM
i predict dick lebeau will run the same 3-4 defense next year.

i predict about half the teams will run the 3-4.

i predict the other half will run the 4-3.

i predict the patriots will make their 2 record setting TE's a focal point of their offense again.

i predict drew brees and aaron rogers will throw for a ton of yards with about 70% accuracy.

i predict the steelers will not utilize a true fullback.

i predict ben will throw atleast 1 boneheaded int or lose a fumble in every game.

i predict ben will get sacked atleast twice in every single game.

wow. it seems every team in the whole league is predictable, especially the great ones.

the reason they (and dick lebeau) are so predictable is because they keep doing WHAT WORKS and leads to SUCCESS! :dang:

who wouldve ever guessed? maybe lebeau should take a page from arians book and trick the league by unleashing the unpredictable 1-6-4 defense. nobody will see it coming! :muhaha:

ShutDown24
01-11-2012, 09:07 PM
I find it hard to believe anyone would even think about relieving LeBeau. Thinking that he is "the problem" is more than a little delusional.

FanSince72
01-11-2012, 11:38 PM
So let it happen. His defense is indeed very, very predictable. I predicted it would be #1 this year and I was right. :applaudit: All the other teams kept expecting him to trick them, the way Bruce Arians does on offense, but he fooled them with his predictability. Tricky Dick!

What you are saying makes no sense. If the D this year was even just mediocre, then yeah, we could have this discussion. But it was the number one defense in the entire national football league, both in terms of yards and points. I'll ask you again: do the Steelers strike you as the type of team that punishes success? Does Dick Lebeau strike you as the type of coach who thinks that finishing #1 overall is a sign that he's lost a step?

What was predictable, other than his success yet again? I just don't get where you are coming from. :noidea:


In the forty years I've been watching this team, I've seen plenty of years where we had a great defense -- a Number One Defense -- and for me, this just wasn't one of them and frankly I've been a bit underwhelmed for the last couple of seasons as well.

Statistically, we may be number one, but statistics are just numbers and they can mean a lot of different things.
Like for example if I step onto the first tee of a golf course with three PGA Tour pros; "statistically" I'm the fourth best golfer in that foursome.

Really?

The numbers can say whatever they want, but I'm not feeling it and I'm not seeing it.
Defend LeBeau all you want, but I think he's losing a step.

ricardisimo
01-12-2012, 12:54 AM
In the forty years I've been watching this team, I've seen plenty of years where we had a great defense -- a Number One Defense -- and for me, this just wasn't one of them and frankly I've been a bit underwhelmed for the last couple of seasons as well.

Statistically, we may be number one, but statistics are just numbers and they can mean a lot of different things.
Like for example if I step onto the first tee of a golf course with three PGA Tour pros; "statistically" I'm the fourth best golfer in that foursome.

Really?

The numbers can say whatever they want, but I'm not feeling it and I'm not seeing it.
Defend LeBeau all you want, but I think he's losing a step.
Wow. I don't know what to say. You are clearly either just ****ing with us all or you don't even get basic mathematics. If you shoot 16 holes with the top 31 PGA Tour and at the end of those 16 holes you have the lowest score... guess what! You're the best golfer there! Congratulations! There's no way to spin that. Those numbers don't lie. No one is that lucky. One hole, possibly. Two holes? Forget it. Sixteen? Are you on drugs?

I'm dropping this discussion with you, because I don't even think you're taking it seriously. And you shouldn't be, quite honestly. The idea of getting rid of Dick Lebeau at this point of his career after what his defense did this season is just a joke. A bad one, but a joke all the same.

I think we can all assume that like many, you over-reacted to a tough loss. Whatever. You'll get over it. We all will.

FanSince72
01-12-2012, 11:39 AM
Wow. I don't know what to say. You are clearly either just ****ing with us all or you don't even get basic mathematics. If you shoot 16 holes with the top 31 PGA Tour and at the end of those 16 holes you have the lowest score... guess what! You're the best golfer there! Congratulations! There's no way to spin that. Those numbers don't lie. No one is that lucky. One hole, possibly. Two holes? Forget it. Sixteen? Are you on drugs?

I'm dropping this discussion with you, because I don't even think you're taking it seriously. And you shouldn't be, quite honestly. The idea of getting rid of Dick Lebeau at this point of his career after what his defense did this season is just a joke. A bad one, but a joke all the same.

I think we can all assume that like many, you over-reacted to a tough loss. Whatever. You'll get over it. We all will.

Yeah, you're probably right.

I think losing to Denver may have had more of an effect on me than I thought (or wanted to believe) and I'm probably more pissed-off than I really want to admit.

ShutDown24
01-13-2012, 03:36 AM
How is the game "catching up" to Dick LeBeau's schemes??? The Steelers only allowed 14.2 points per game this season. Throw out all the 'yards against' stats that this defense also led the league in if you want, but at the end of the day - this team allowed the fewest points per game in the league. In fact, they allowed fewer points per game than the top ranked defenses over the previous two seasons as well. Fewer than the 2010 #1 Ranked Pittsburgh Steelers and fewer than the 2009 #1 Ranked New York Jets. That 2008 Steelers defense, which is largely believed to be one of the greatest defenses of all time, allowed 13.9 points per game. Only a hair less than this years squad. I just don't see any type of argument here.

FanSince72
01-13-2012, 10:12 AM
How is the game "catching up" to Dick LeBeau's schemes??? The Steelers only allowed 14.2 points per game this season. Throw out all the 'yards against' stats that this defense also led the league in if you want, but at the end of the day - this team allowed the fewest points per game in the league. In fact, they allowed fewer points per game than the top ranked defenses over the previous two seasons as well. Fewer than the 2010 #1 Ranked Pittsburgh Steelers and fewer than the 2009 #1 Ranked New York Jets. That 2008 Steelers defense, which is largely believed to be one of the greatest defenses of all time, allowed 13.9 points per game. Only a hair less than this years squad. I just don't see any type of argument here.

I really don't want to wind this up again, but I'll say this:

I know what the numbers mean and yes, strictly from THAT point of view we were #1.

But a few people I know, for example, said to me near the end of the season that they were surprised to hear that we had the #1 defense and I know exactly why they felt that way and I was surprised to hear that as well because from what I watched all year, I didn't see it.

I'm not a big fan of statistics because they can be misleading. Statistics only show an overall result and they don't reflect the game-by-game struggles that I saw. For example the way we struggled against teams like Indy and Cleveland.
Against Cleveland, for example, we were fighting to the last second to try to stop them from scoring and winning the game on last minute plays and they almost pulled it off twice. To me, we shouldn't have been in that position and I saw things like that all season.

As I say, overall the numbers look good, but from a situational point of view - game by game - I saw us struggling defensively against teams that we should have been handling easily (like in 2008) instead of being backed up down the field and forced to defend against teams that we should have easily taken care of.

I didn't feel confident with the defense as I have in the past. I think we've gotten sloppy and I think that we are not using players the way we should be using them.
For instance, we still don't seem to really know what to do with Polamalu. For a guy with as much talent and speed as he has, he often seems to be in the wrong place. Yes, it's fun to watch him come flying in from somewhere to help on a tackle, but why was he so far away to begin with? I think his talents could be put to better use. We also have a secondary that even in 2008 was barely able to hold things together and when we come across a team that sees that and can plan against it, we sometimes end up looking like a high school team.

Yes we've still won, but many of the wins seemed more to be in the "didn't lose" category and that's what I'm talking about. I still think we're not adapting as well as we should (and certainly can) to the changing league and though we may not have completely broken down, we're definitely starting to show signs of wear.

I know we can make the changes necessary and the game we played against New England is a perfect example of that and one that really made me feel good about our D and its ability to adapt to a situation. But that ended up being just for one game and we spent the rest of the season playing our usual D and there were more than a few times where it almost cost us big time. To me it's the subtle things and those will eventually become major things if we don't take the time to address them now.

I know that most people will read this and tell me I'm nuts or that I don't know what I'm talking about and how we had the best defense in the league, but that same defense - when it really counted - got embarrassed by a second-rate QB giving up more yards to him than we did to any other team in the league and our Number One Defense is now watching the playoffs from a sofa.

So whether it's 14.2 or 13.9 or whatever other statistical "proof" you or anyone else can come up with, the fact remains that none of that is worth a spit in the ocean right now.

In my humble opinion, of course! :noidea: