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View Full Version : P-G- Holmes was a problem "ready to explode."


Atlanta Dan
06-28-2006, 09:15 AM
I am linking to an article in today's Post-Gazette in which Ken Herock, former personnel director for several NFL teams, is quoted as saying he counseled Santonio Holmes in preparation for the draft and saw trouble coming:

"I had an impression of the kid, where he was from, such a tough area, but soon as he told me he had three kids I knew it was going to be a problem," Herock said. "He was dirt poor, all of a sudden he's got a little money, you get a little rambunctious.

Herock further states he thinks Holmes won't have any more off-field problems:

"He's smart enough to know. He's going to change. He's smart enough to realize, 'This is going to kill me. I got to stop.' I think he will mature. This will stop. I don't think it will be a habitual thing."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06179/701601-66.stm

I guess we should be glad Holmes "rambunctious" nature did not result in a knife or gun fight in which someone got killed.

The more I read the less I like this draft decision by the Steelers.

BlackNGold203
06-28-2006, 09:46 AM
I dunno...jury is still out on this one....I'm EXTREMELY curious to see how these contract negotiations go....

HometownGal
06-28-2006, 09:51 AM
I'm going to give the kid a chance before passing judgment on him, but thus far, it seems like he has some maturity and ego conflicts. Hopefully, when the season starts, The Chin will give him the Cowher brand of counseling - get it together or take a hike. :cool:

nicesteel4life
06-28-2006, 10:03 AM
Truly think things will work out. Remeber your dealing with a POOR KID that had 3 children before getting through College. Not so sure if it's a EGO problem as much as a I beat the world attitude, the Miami thing might have been a little. I know from starting my life out very low middle class and having a child on the way before high school was a tremendos strain. Now add to that just getting Picked in the 1st rd Draft!... Yeah I would of been a little crazy at first thinking I was untouchable, but reality slips in. Special near home in Florida. Alot of people probably down played him his whole life, sorta like I showed you all Attitude. The Fathers day situation...We will never know it completely, and as i said before that whole story could be twisted and atleast he was seeing his son earlier for Fathers Day. I truly feel he will get it together. Dont worry Steelers Faithfulls, He will be a force and Black N Gold FANS will be wearing #10 again with PRIDE!

83-Steelers-43
06-28-2006, 10:55 AM
I have to question Mr. Herock's comments....

He states reasons why it's inevitable that Holmes will be a problem, but then he goes on to state "I don't think it will be a habitual thing". So what is it? Last I recall he still has three kids. He's still young. He's still going to be making large amounts of money compared to before. He still came from a bad upbringing. So what makes Mr. Herock think Holmes is going to change?

In my opinion, the signs are not good. Hopefully he can turn himself around and get his head on straight, but I have seen this situation many of times and it normally ends in disaster. Holmes has a ton of proving to do in these next few months in order to convince me that he will start acting like a Pittsburgh Steeler.

PisnNapalm
06-28-2006, 11:56 AM
Here's hoping Holmes realizes that the brass ring can be taken away more quickly than it was given.

LambertLunatic
06-28-2006, 01:18 PM
I have a friend who caught his wife sleeping with another man. My friend didn't get physical, but he did yell and curse at her. His wife then asked for AND RECEIVED a Protection From Abuse order against him. He was unable to go into his own home until his hearing, because he yelled at her. The system is meant to protect women (some of whom really need protection), but it presumes a man's guilt regardless of circumstances. I do not condone hitting a woman, but being accused of "laying his hands" on a woman does not constitute guilt. The fact that he left the house and then later returned WHILE THE POLICE WERE THERE doesn't sound like he really hit her. It sounds more like they got into an argument and he said that he was leaving. When she tried blocking the door, he "laid his hands on her" , pulled her away from the door, and left. This may or may not be what happened, but in light of the ease in which a woman can get a guy arrested, we really should consider the possibility that he's innocent.

OX1947
06-28-2006, 01:25 PM
freakin morons. Can't these idiots learn from society about relationships and all this bullcrap with girls. Three kids before your 22. And even more, these idiot athletes who get married knowing that they will be banging every thing in site on the road. I would never get married while i am playing, I would do what Troy Aikman did and have my days and then after retirement, find the one you want.....

Livinginthe past
06-28-2006, 02:12 PM
I find it odd that people are so willingly to believe that the woman in question here, the mother of one of Santonio's children no less, is some crazed money grabber who submits false reports to the police.

Pretty much everything I have heard about Holmes so far would make me side with the woman in this case.

I believe in restraining a woman if she is out of control and physically attacking me, I dont believe in putting her on the floor if she is doing something as harmless as blocking my exit from a room.

From the police reports I remember that her clothes were torn.

I dont care what day of the year it is, fathers day or not, one of the fundamental rules of being a man is that you don't use physical force against a woman unless given no other option.

I also happen to think that the articles excusing of Holmes behaviour thus far as 'expected' to be greatly insulting to those who are in a lower income bracket - real class isn't shown in your bank balance.

NM

Stillers#1
06-28-2006, 02:25 PM
I still honestly think that the jury is still out on Holmes. I have friends who have emade the same mistakes this guy has, that don't make them a bad person. If anything, he needs our support even more now than he did as a normal rookie. I just can't wait to see this guy prove you all wrong.

Black@Gold Forever32
06-28-2006, 02:30 PM
I still honestly think that the jury is still out on Holmes. I have friends who have emade the same mistakes this guy has, that don't make them a bad person. If anything, he needs our support even more now than he did as a normal rookie. I just can't wait to see this guy prove you all wrong.

Good post and I agree. We don't know all the details regarding Santonio Holmes recent arrest since we were not there. But he has been arrested twice. So thats two strikes. In my opinion a third strike and he is out.

Haiku_Dirtt
06-28-2006, 03:50 PM
Amazing that we have two players simultaneously in the news at the opposite ends of the spectrum. Larry Foote is in court to assume responsibilty and Holmes is in court because he lacks it.

Personally I wouldn't accuse Ken Herock of insulting people in lower income brackets. Unlike me, when I ripped into Holmes a couple weeks ago, he had face time with Santonio. Herock has a fiduciary duty to recognize and qualify the socioeconomics factors as well as the athleticism of the player he counsels.

The hyper-sensationlism of the 'Gangsta' mentality is an impressionable 800lb. guerilla for players like Holmes. The neighborhood influence is what I'm guessing Herock was alluding.

"Add it up -- no money, poor family background, three kids already -- something's going to happen." Sounds like a generalization but statistics don't come from the sky. Think about it. You live your whole life with little spare change then BOOM here's a million dollars after taxes in your bank account.

I might be going out on a limb here but I'm betting he's thinking Escalade and NOT 529 College Savings Plans for his 3 kids. And Bling.

Two outcomes: Holmes signs an incentive-laden low ball contract or that will be his STRIKE 3.

Oh. And for the sake of being repetitious my favorite college tailback for the last 2 years is a Titan.

Livinginthe past
06-28-2006, 04:10 PM
The excuse related to his sudden increase in spending power may wash when it comes to back-chatting police officers.

When it comes to assaulting a woman, I couldnt give a fig about anyones fiduciary responsibilities to socioeconomic factors.

I think its a cop out.

NM

SteelersWyo
06-28-2006, 04:14 PM
Although Holmes' situation is a little different than Randy Moss' when he came out of college Moss was passed on until about the 21nd round becuase of the reputation he had. He did not turn out too bad. Had some trouble, but was one of the best WRs in the league. Let's wait a bit and see what happens.

Haiku_Dirtt
06-28-2006, 04:29 PM
The excuse related to his sudden increase in spending power may wash when it comes to back-chatting police officers.

When it comes to assaulting a woman, I couldnt give a fig about anyones fiduciary responsibilities to socioeconomic factors.

I think its a cop out.

NM

Assaulting women is a weakness.

But my comments were about Ken Herock as an NFL counselor and his "Add it up" comments in the article which is - as to my post - separate to the assualt charges. If my comments about Herock are interpreted as an excuse for Holmes choking and slapping his son's mother then I should clarify that.

Even if his son's mother starts getting physical with him he should just turn and walk out the door. If you can't handle walking away after getting b**ch-slapped by a woman then how in the hell are you going to make it the NFL. Like I said. It's a weakness.

nicesteel4life
06-28-2006, 04:32 PM
Although Holmes' situation is a little different than Randy Moss' when he came out of college Moss was passed on until about the 21nd round becuase of the reputation he had. He did not turn out too bad. Had some trouble, but was one of the best WRs in the league. Let's wait a bit and see what happens.

EXACTLY.....He aint the first bad seed. And he could be alot worse.
I just get sick of his Babies Momma as being brought up as the Victim, we live in America. I thought we were Innocent till proven guilty? Dont ya think it odd, nothing has been said about her since. NOT A PEEP.

Believe me I am in no way saying it's proper to strike a woman. I just dont hold faith in alot of domestic disturbances when it wasent seen. He came back. Dont ya think if he would of beat the shit out of her when he seen the cops there he would of comeback, COMON

SteelerFanInCA
06-28-2006, 04:33 PM
I still honestly think that the jury is still out on Holmes. I have friends who have emade the same mistakes this guy has, that don't make them a bad person. If anything, he needs our support even more now than he did as a normal rookie. I just can't wait to see this guy prove you all wrong.
I hope so. Here's to proving us all wrong. :toast:


Hopefully that guy can get his shit together. I'm trying not to be too judgmental on this guy just yet. I'm definitley looking forward to seeing this guy play as well.

Hopefully that "ready to explode" part actually happens on the field.

Livinginthe past
06-28-2006, 04:50 PM
Assaulting women is a weakness.

But my comments were about Ken Herock as an NFL counselor and his "Add it up" comments in the article which is - as to my post - separate to the assualt charges. If my comments about Herock are interpreted as an excuse for Holmes choking and slapping his son's mother then I should clarify that.

Even if his son's mother starts getting physical with him he should just turn and walk out the door. If you can't handle walking away after getting b**ch-slapped by a woman then how in the hell are you going to make it the NFL. Like I said. It's a weakness.

Thanks for the clarification Haiku.

NM

Atlanta Dan
06-28-2006, 04:57 PM
EXACTLY.....He aint the first bad seed. And he could be alot worse.
I just get sick of his Babies Momma as being brought up as the Victim, we live in America. I thought we were Innocent till proven guilty? Dont ya think it odd, nothing has been said about her since. NOT A PEEP.

Believe me I am in no way saying it's proper to strike a woman. I just dont hold faith in alot of domestic disturbances when it wasent seen. He came back. Dont ya think if he would of beat the shit out of her when he seen the cops there he would of comeback, COMON

You can make just as compelling an argument that he came back to finish what he started as to say he came back because he did not do anything wrong. It is not as if he can disappear for a year and hope the law gets tired of looking for him.

Bottom line for me is that someone in their early 20s with three kids by 2 different women (neither of whom you have married or are even living with) who just had a run-in with the Miami Beach PD is more likely to be up to no good than your typical young man.

As far as not a peep out of the woman, it appears logical to assume both the prosecutors and the attorney representing her personally have told her to be quiet for now.

I bleed Black & Gold but my loyalty does not extend to rationalizing domestic violence. This guy has dug himself a huge hole in terms of what the Steelers expect from their players.

CantStop85
06-28-2006, 05:32 PM
we live in America. I thought we were Innocent till proven guilty?
That applies only in the court of law...we are now in the court of public opinion.

tony hipchest
06-28-2006, 05:48 PM
I bleed Black & Gold but my loyalty does not extend to rationalizing domestic violence. This guy has dug himself a huge hole in terms of what the Steelers expect from their players. what we paid to get him, and being that hes a primadonna wr, i expected a top 5 wr within 5 years. im thinking the steelers org. and players will give him a slightly bigger benefit of the doubt than the fans will. he may be kaput as far as living up to the fans hopes. he wasnt gonna do much as it was even if he had a squeaky clean image. im just glad the steelers hedged their bets with the pick of w. reid. now if he screws up i will worry. otherwise im looking at him to work his ass off to beat holmes on the depth chart.

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
06-28-2006, 05:53 PM
Im sure the FO is going to let him know what they expect....
He needs money to support his three children and the 3 mothers of each child soooo.. He abetter start acting like a steeler

SteelProven
06-28-2006, 09:18 PM
So is the guy saying any body with a bad backround has the potential to explode. This is so stereotypical it's making me sick. He might as well called S. Holmes a "Ghetto Thug". He must need some serious "PR" to air out some rookie.

clevestinks
06-28-2006, 09:26 PM
Sorry folks I wont be so quick to give him a second chance. He apologized for the domestic violence, doesnt that usually mean that you were in the wrong?? If this women is telling the truth, how would you feel if it were your mother, sister, daughter or someone else close to you. I feel like a man who beats a women is not a man at all!

SteelShooter
06-28-2006, 09:30 PM
The excuse related to his sudden increase in spending power may wash when it comes to back-chatting police officers.

When it comes to assaulting a woman, I couldnt give a fig about anyones fiduciary responsibilities to socioeconomic factors.

I think its a cop out.

NM


I agree LITP. This is, I believe, a perfect example of what we see quite a bit of in todays society.

I can have an attitude, or ignore rules/laws, or I can simply be a menace to society in general. But that's okay! Simply because...........it's someone else's fault, not mine! Either I grew up with no father and my mother was drunk, or I have this particular background, or even look at this Britney Spears thing I heard about on TV where she attempted to explain driving around with her child in her lap because "I'm country and we always drove with children on our laps." What hogwash! I grew up in the sticks of coastal Texas, very similar to the environment she grew up in, in Louisiana (I was raised very close to the LA/TX border, and have quite a bit of Cajun blood running through my veins). I remember seeing this also....but I am responsible enough to know better now.

Arrrrgh! This mentality is so very frustrating................

Black@Gold Forever32
06-28-2006, 09:40 PM
Sorry folks I wont be so quick to give him a second chance. He apologized for the domestic violence, doesnt that usually mean that you were in the wrong?? If this women is telling the truth, how would you feel if it were your mother, sister, daughter or someone else close to you. I feel like a man who beats a women is not a man at all!

Trust me I can't stand men that hit women. I agree with you Cleve, any man that hits a women isn't a man. But when its all said it done Santonio is going to be paid to produce and help win football games....Not to be a model citizen or a decent human being. I liked Holmes before these recent arrests. But these arrests have me thinking different now.

I also don't know all the details regarding this recent arrest. So I can't pass full judgement on Santonio. But like I said one of the sad side of pro sports is Santonio isn't paid to be a good guy but to produce and help win football games. I take pride that the Steelers put some much stock into character and usually avoid turds. But its looking like Santonio fits the turd label.

We shall see though. He has two strikes and I say three strikes and your out. So if there is a third strike. The Steelers should say bye bye to Santonio Holmes.

redst3
06-29-2006, 11:51 AM
I find it odd that people are so willingly to believe that the woman in question here, the mother of one of Santonio's children no less, is some crazed money grabber who submits false reports to the police.

Pretty much everything I have heard about Holmes so far would make me side with the woman in this case.

NM


Kind of reminds me of Corey Dillon.

redst3
06-29-2006, 11:53 AM
We can talk all day about this cat. He sounds like a problem to me. I hope they rid themselves of him.

Livinginthe past
06-29-2006, 04:59 PM
Kind of reminds me of Corey Dillon.

You want to remind me again when Corey Dillon was arrested for assaulting a woman?

Or do you mean 'kind of' as in 'not at all' ?

NM

SteelersWyo
06-29-2006, 07:25 PM
Last first round WR I can remember the Steelers taking was Plaxico. Not a big head ache in a legal sense, but he sucked on the field. Hope that doesn't happen again. Hines was what 3rd round? And how has he turned out?

SteelCzar76
06-29-2006, 07:34 PM
BOTTOM LINE,...they're is only one Truth here,...IF YOU WERE NOT THERE, YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. He did'nt apologize for commiting any crime, (He plead not guilty),... he was apologizing for the way that recent events have dishonored himself and this organization. He could be the Antichrist himself,...or he could just be having a Major lesson from ON HIGH right now. But whom,.. outside of the party's directly involved TRUELY knows. There is always at least two sides to every story,.....but the practical and great man realizes,....the TRUTH is usually somewhere in the middle. If he is found to have assaulted a woman,...he is not a Man,...and should be punished accordingly. But until that is proven,...bashing him like he's guilty is an ASSumption. "Nuff Said"


"Hail Caesar,....Hail the Black and Gold"

SteelersWyo
06-29-2006, 07:40 PM
How may other defense attorneys are there on this board. WOW!!

tony hipchest
06-29-2006, 07:42 PM
Last first round WR I can remember the Steelers taking was Plaxico. Not a big head ache in a legal sense, but he sucked on the field. Hope that doesn't happen again. Hines was what 3rd round? And how has he turned out?the cowher era 1st round wr picks have produced the great plexico, troy edwards, and charles johnson.

i had hopes holmes career numbers as a steeler would surpass all the 3 combined. not too sure now though.

now im just hoping hes not koren robinson with less talent.

clevestinks
06-29-2006, 08:14 PM
BOTTOM LINE,...they're is only one Truth here,...IF YOU WERE NOT THERE, YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. He did'nt apologize for commiting any crime, (He plead not guilty),... he was apologizing for the way that recent events have dishonored himself and this organization. He could be the Antichrist himself,...or he could just be having a Major lesson from ON HIGH right now. But whom,.. outside of the party's directly involved TRUELY knows. There is always at least two sides to every story,.....but the practical and great man realizes,....the TRUTH is usually somewhere in the middle. If he is found to have assaulted a woman,...he is not a Man,...and should be punished accordingly. But until that is proven,...bashing him like he's guilty is an ASSumption. "Nuff Said"


"Hail Caesar,....Hail the Black and Gold"

I said I`ll let him have his day in court. But he did apologize for the recent embarrassing events yes. He also never said that it isnt true, or that it did not happen. I hope he is innocent, BUT we always are quick to bash other teams players after arrest. And just because he is one of ours makes him no better than anyone else. Also IF he is found innocent, like every other high profile athlete that gets off, do we ASSume that it didn`t happen?????? Or is it another case of $$$ and fame walks??? I love the Steelers, but just because a player is a Steeler, doesn`t make him golden. I only hope that Holmes doesn`t follow the other OSU wide receivers before him, Galloway, Boston, Carter, Glenn just to name a few. OSU doesnt have the greatest track record.

SteelCzar76
06-29-2006, 10:00 PM
Cleve,
I'am by no means "Co signing" Santonio because of his potential value to this franchise. I'm simply stating that his innocence or guilt in any of these matters are PURE speculation, and or OPINION at this point on the part of the general population. Doe's it look bad ?,...YES,...but looks are very often decieving. How many people here have at times had things happen that were completly blown out of proportion ? And how many other's were really just (for lack of better words),...THE villan. What i'm saying is don't let emotion cloud objectivity. There is a time for both piety and mercilessness,...as the situation dictates. But one must be as close as they can be to certainty,...before you choose either course of action. But then again,...this is,.. as stated earlier,...a forum of public OPINION.


"Hail Caesar,....Hail the Black and Gold"

MNsteelers
06-30-2006, 09:38 AM
Trust me I can't stand men that hit women. I agree with you Cleve, any man that hits a women isn't a man. But when its all said it done Santonio is going to be paid to produce and help win football games....Not to be a model citizen or a decent human being. I liked Holmes before these recent arrests. But these arrests have me thinking different now.

I also don't know all the details regarding this recent arrest. So I can't pass full judgement on Santonio. But like I said one of the sad side of pro sports is Santonio isn't paid to be a good guy but to produce and help win football games. I take pride that the Steelers put some much stock into character and usually avoid turds. But its looking like Santonio fits the turd label.

We shall see though. He has two strikes and I say three strikes and your out. So if there is a third strike. The Steelers should say bye bye to Santonio Holmes.

Not to slam on anyone, but I think we're being a bit dramatic about all of this. Just like anyone else, I don't condone hitting a woman. I'm not particularly big on hitting a guy, but it's happened. But the situation at hand is making us assume the absolute worst.

1. Even the cops in Miami Beach said Holmes' arrest down there was basically nothing. It was a big event down there, and there were hundreds of thousands of people around. The police said they were on a "no-BS" policy, meaning they were taking people in for ANYTHING even remotely out of line. Does that sound like a situation where we need to bring in the "he's a product of his system" argument? No, it just sounds like he probably said something he shouldn't have, and got his slap on the wrist. That charge is consummate to a ticket for jaywalking or not having your seat belt on.

2. He isn't being paid yet. You guys keep harping on him for "making all this money" when in reality, he's not. He probably has a few bucks from his agent, but if you think after all this he is going to A. have a lucrative contract in comparison to his peers B. have any endorsement deals C. have enough money left to burn after the mothers of his kids take him to Child Support Cleaners, you're not thinking clearly. More than likely, he's going to be the poorest guy in the NFL.

And no, I'm not crying for him, or offering to pass around a collection plate, all I'm saying is he's not nearly as well off as you might think.

3. The police report I read basically said there was some pushing and shoving going on, and it was a situation where the police have to assume the worst. Following protocol, they have to take him in, just to make absolute sure the female is going to be safe. Should it have happened? No, absolutely not, but that doesn't make him a criminal. It just signifies he had a bad argument with someone involved in his life, and it got out of hand to the point outside intervention was necessary.

So let's not make comparisons to Randy Moss just yet. I'm worried, as any fan of any team who has a player with a few run-ins with the law would be, but my point is we are probably taking this a bit more extreme than it needs to be. Let's give this equal scrutiny to the level of the wrong-doing. These aren't even gross misdemeanor charges. Let's not throw him under the bus just yet.

nicesteel4life
06-30-2006, 11:00 AM
Been saying the SAME...So many people want to BASH. What do they have in the closet? Both Situations have been blown way out of the relm. Come Back Steelers Faithfull, dont get caught up in the press bullshit! This is what they want! Us bashing each other with OPINIONS.

Lyn
06-30-2006, 11:17 AM
He gets drafted in the first round and goes to South Beach for some fun. He
gets arrested for basically standing in the street. Personally I don't have
an issue with this incident in the slighest. None. It was May. That's the
time of year a guy is supposed to relax and have fun.

Once proven to be true, domestic violance is inexcusable. Obvioulsy, the circumstances don't look good with him apologizing. I'm not defending him but just acknowledging the fact that parties in domestic disputes don't always give exactly accurate accounts of events.

That one fact alone (that he apologizied) does not look good for him, in my eyes.

MNsteelers
06-30-2006, 03:56 PM
He gets drafted in the first round and goes to South Beach for some fun. He
gets arrested for basically standing in the street. Personally I don't have
an issue with this incident in the slighest. None. It was May. That's the
time of year a guy is supposed to relax and have fun.

Once proven to be true, domestic violance is inexcusable. Obvioulsy, the circumstances don't look good with him apologizing. I'm not defending him but just acknowledging the fact that parties in domestic disputes don't always give exactly accurate accounts of events.

That one fact alone (that he apologizied) does not look good for him, in my eyes.

And now the whole apology thing is getting over-analyzed. You aren't reading what he said. All athletes do this now: He wasn't apologizing for any specific action, he was apologizing for negative attention being brought to the organization. That's not the same thing. Let's say you went off and started belting out racial slurs, and a minority group demanded an apology. You said "I apologize for my words offending people." That is not saying you are sorry for anything you said. You are saying you feel bad because some people don't share your view point.

In Santonio's case, I agree with him. I think it's too bad negative attention keeps coming his way. Obviously he needs to stop putting himself into bad situations, and pull his head out. But it's way more than likely that it was just a bad situation that could have become worse, hence the reason the cops did what they did. Erring on the side of caution. It was more than likely a volatile situation and there was a threat of physical violence. It behooves the police to take the man in.

And I'll bet that's all this turns out to be.

As far as me being a big fan of Holmes, all he needs to do, in my mind, is get a veteran player to show him the ropes a little bit, do the mandatory anger management class the league will no doubt make him complete, then show up to camp on time, in shape, and ready to keep his mouth shut and work hard. Make a few big plays in big situations, and have a problem-free rookie year. Not too hard for him to do all these things.

nicesteel4life
06-30-2006, 04:03 PM
MNsteelers you fighting a losing battle. Opinions are exspressed here but some truly feel that theres are GOSPEL. I applaud you effort but will eventually get frustrated trying. Just enjoy the opinons of all and realize there just opinions.