PDA

View Full Version : Drop back pocket passers are born not made.


former RB
01-18-2012, 03:36 AM
Big Ben lays way too many eggs every year. The reason for that is that he isn't a drop back pocket passer that they keep trying to make him into. They need to start scheming to Ben's strength and designing plays that take advantage of his strengths.
If I was a steeler play caller, i would call something like "x drag, roll right, y corner, z streak [or Go], at least once per series of downs. That way Ben can roll right by design, and have the option of stopping to hit the drag route without throwing across his body, or keep rolling and hit the x deep covered by a safety, or throw the streak or go to wallce

The way it is now, they might call a play similar to that which has Ben in the pocket and is meant to hit guys on the run. But that design always breaks down, and they go into a run and shoot chaos play.

Crossing patterns are for drop back pocket passers to throw, drag routes are made for scramblers. Ben also struggles with deep sideline patterns, but they always call them. He needs to throw stops and curls from the pocket. Best way to set up the stops and curls is with Ben under center and running play action. They always seem to have him in the shotgun when they call stop and curl plays. Play action would freeze the LB's and give the y stop or or curl some space and create a window. X could get seperation and Z could throw blocks for the y stop or curl.

They call and design plays for Ben that only guys like Manning, Brees, Brady, Eli, Rivers, Rodgers and a few others could hit

TRH
01-18-2012, 08:52 AM
Ben has shown he can hit those plays.
The problem is that our Offensive Coordinator isn't using them nearly enough in the game plan (he needs to trople it...). We also don't utilize our Tight Ends near enough, such as Brady's Patriots team does. This then frees other receivers deeper down the field.
I don't think it's Ben as much as i do the system. People have been complaining about our lack of Tight End use and with good reason.

I would have to disagree. At this point he's not a consistent "drop back passer" as you say because our play's and routes do not feed into that kind of game (unfortunately). Hopefully this is worked on and changed somewhat in the off-season. I would have to believe it will be after hearing the boss's remarks yesterday.
Arian's may not be "fired", but he without a doubt has to make some changes, there's no question about that.

FanSince72
01-18-2012, 10:13 AM
Ben is not, nor will he ever be a drop-back passer.

That's the thing that makes him so different and also what makes him so hard to game plan around. It's why I think ANY offensive coordinator would have trouble with him because plays, to Ben, are more suggestions than actual plans or procedures.

I think a good way to describe him would be, "Ben drops back...aaaaaand...... we'll see where he goes from there".

From a "fun to watch" point of view, you can't beat the way he plays, but from a coaches point of view it's a headache, but it DOES work as evidenced by the 4th quarter in the Denver game. For the first three quarters he was basically a pocket-passer with limited success. But when the 4th quarter rolled around and he needed to get things going, he apparently decided to forget the leg and started being "Ben" and all of a sudden the offense came alive. I think though that the leg was simply too banged up to keep that sort of thing going and on the last drive (if you could call it that) of regulation, he seemed to desperately want just a few yards to get into position for a field goal attempt because I think at that point his leg was shot.

I think he sees the field better when he moves around and it's his way of getting a better idea of where everyone is in space and when he's healthy, there's no one better at doing that. Ben is never going to be an "X's and O's" guy and he has a limited capacity to run plays the way they're drawn up. He loves to improvise and I think he plays the game with a sandlot mentality, which is the main reason why I compare him so often to Bradshaw. That's also the reason why I go easy on Arians (and why Ben loves him so much) because Arians recognizes that he isn't going to change Ben, so he tries to work with him by not trying to stop him from doing what he does naturally. The difficulty in all of this lies in coming up with anything that could seriously be called a "plan" as opposed to something that seems more like, "Here, let's try this".

I think that if Ben had a healthy O-line (read: consistent), he'd have something in front of him that WAS predictable and he could then be free to do his thing. But I think the injuries have taken a lot of that ability away because he's been forced to scramble not to see the field, but to protect himself and that kind of scrambling is a lot different than running around looking for the perfect opportunity.

Maybe Ben runs around a little too much and maybe he could benefit from learning to be more "system-oriented" but frankly, I don't think he'd be as effective and he certainly wouldn't be as much fun to watch.

Bayz101
01-18-2012, 10:23 AM
In 2007 Ben had a lot off goal line roll-out gonzo plays that we're successful. They usually involved passes to Parker and Miller. Roll out's and drag routes have always been his strong point.

plenewken
01-18-2012, 10:59 AM
From a "fun to watch" point of view, you can't beat the way he plays, but from a coaches point of view it's a headache, but it DOES work as evidenced by the 4th quarter in the Denver game. For the first three quarters he was basically a pocket-passer with limited success. But when the 4th quarter rolled around and he needed to get things going, he apparently decided to forget the leg and started being "Ben" and all of a sudden the offense came alive...............

Yeah but last time I checked, a quarter is 15mn, not 13. The last 2mn of the 4th Q were simply atrocious. 1 overthrown pass, 1 fumble and 2 sacks. Brilliant, no?

FanSince72
01-18-2012, 11:20 AM
Yeah but last time I checked, a quarter is 15mn, not 13. The last 2mn of the 4th Q were simply atrocious. 1 overthrown pass, 1 fumble and 2 sacks. Brilliant, no?

Which is why I also wrote: "...on the last drive (if you could call it that) of regulation, he seemed to desperately want just a few yards to get into position for a field goal attempt because I think at that point his leg was shot."

TRH
01-18-2012, 11:30 AM
Which is why I also wrote: "...on the last drive (if you could call it that) of regulation, he seemed to desperately want just a few yards to get into position for a field goal attempt because I think at that point his leg was shot."

...and those 2 sacks were when they only had THREE men on the defensive line, in a prevent mode, and they blew right past our OL and were on Ben in 2 seconds. I sat there stunned, couldn't believe that our OL was manhandled that bad.
Really hard to put those sacks as Ben's fault. Any QB would have went down.

FanSince72
01-18-2012, 01:50 PM
...and those 2 sacks were when they only had THREE men on the defensive line, in a prevent mode, and they blew right past our OL and were on Ben in 2 seconds. I sat there stunned, couldn't believe that our OL was manhandled that bad.
Really hard to put those sacks as Ben's fault. Any QB would have went down.

Yes and no.

I think the idea was to have as many guys out running patterns as possible and of course the defense knew that as well so everyone was covered.
Under normal circumstances, if Ben was healthy, he would have just started moving around and buying time. But under those circumstances, I think he was done as far as moving around was concerned and I think the line knew it too and they kind of gave up.

I mean, let's face it, even if he got enough yards and we kicked the winner, does anyone really believe Ben or anyone else nursing injuries - especially the kind of injuries we had - would have held up against either Baltimore or New England?

I think after Ben's 4th quarter scrambles, he really screwed up his leg and everyone knew that and they also knew that without him, we didn't have a chance after Denver.

Sometimes you just have to throw in the towel and say, "No mas!"

TRH
01-18-2012, 02:04 PM
Yes and no.

I think the idea was to have as many guys out running patterns as possible and of course the defense knew that as well so everyone was covered.
Under normal circumstances, if Ben was healthy, he would have just started moving around and buying time. But under those circumstances, I think he was done as far as moving around was concerned and I think the line knew it too and they kind of gave up.

I mean, let's face it, even if he got enough yards and we kicked the winner, does anyone really believe Ben or anyone else nursing injuries - especially the kind of injuries we had - would have held up against either Baltimore or New England?

I think after Ben's 4th quarter scrambles, he really screwed up his leg and everyone knew that and they also knew that without him, we didn't have a chance after Denver.

Sometimes you just have to throw in the towel and say, "No mas!"


You're right.....we would have just been preserving the inevitable. I don't believe we were a 12-4 team, even without most of the injuries. I would really like to see us utilize the tight end position much more....it really contributes alot to Tom Brady's success.
It will be an interesting off-season. I'm looking forward to seeing what the moves and changes will be.

FanSince72
01-18-2012, 03:07 PM
You're right.....we would have just been preserving the inevitable. I don't believe we were a 12-4 team, even without most of the injuries. I would really like to see us utilize the tight end position much more....it really contributes alot to Tom Brady's success.
It will be an interesting off-season. I'm looking forward to seeing what the moves and changes will be.

If the desire of Arians is to really open up a solid passing game, then you're absolutely right in us needing tight ends. We can't do it with Miller all by himself.

If we can develop some of the other guys we have who are still a bit rough around the edges now, but DO show some promise, then at least Ben will have some solid check-down guys when the deeper stuff isn't there. We also need to maybe lighten up the O-line a bit and focus more on mobility so that they're not gassed having to stretch things out while Ben is moving around in the backfield.

Of course, if we had more TE's, the check-down opportunities would probably limit Ben's need to scramble anyway, but still, getting away from the "Three-yards-and-a-cloud-of-dust" blocking line and streamlining it for a more modern game would still be a good idea regardless. I think that Ben and Arians "see" a more Green Bay / New Orleans / Patriots style of offense as being what we need but just having some wideouts and even some more TE's isn't everything without a quicker O-line that's been coached in that style as opposed to a running style.

You don't know how many times this year I've felt that we almost "got it" but then had it slip away either due to injuries or just a receiving corps that's still not as tuned up as it can be.

I think we're almost there and I think next year WILL be interesting indeed!

plenewken
01-18-2012, 05:29 PM
You're right.....we would have just been preserving the inevitable. I don't believe we were a 12-4 team, even without most of the injuries. I would really like to see us utilize the tight end position much more....it really contributes alot to Tom Brady's success.


Most offensive powerhouses use their TEs primarily as receivers, not blockers like Arians does.. Look at Davis, Graham, Gronkowski, Gonzales, Hernandez, Witten, Keller, Celek, Gates, Pettigrew etc... ..
Miller ranked #64 in receiving yds at the end of the regular season and #16 amongst TEs.
Insane!