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View Full Version : Has Noah's Ark Been Found?


Lyn
06-30-2006, 01:58 PM
http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/has-noahs-ark-been-found/20060629173309990001?cid=2194

Blitzburgh55
06-30-2006, 02:22 PM
Thats a bunch of Sh*t thats isnt Noahs Arc

Livinginthe past
06-30-2006, 03:14 PM
Im certainly no believer in God - but there is often an element of truth to these fables - maybe there was some guy who rescued a bunch of animals on a purpose built wooden raft - but I really dont think it was anything to do with the whole world flooding.

They are still digging up remains of dinosaurs and mummies - it makes sense that this stuff can be preserved for eternity if kept in the right conditions.

Often the religious context these stories are told in detracts from possible elements of scientific truth in them.

NM

SteelerDan43
06-30-2006, 03:38 PM
They did find evidence in the soil of a great flood in the mediteranian (sp?) which in the biblical time was the whole world so a giant boat could be possible i would imagine

tony hipchest
06-30-2006, 04:23 PM
Im certainly no believer in God - but there is often an element of truth to these fables - maybe there was some guy who rescued a bunch of animals on a purpose built wooden raft - but I really dont think it was anything to do with the whole world flooding.

They are still digging up remains of dinosaurs and mummies - it makes sense that this stuff can be preserved for eternity if kept in the right conditions.

Often the religious context these stories are told in detracts from possible elements of scientific truth in them.

NMonly the naive religious zealots believe the whole world flooded, just like the ones who believe man didnt exist before 5000 years ago. many of these "fables" were written 2-3000 years ago, long before man knew the earth was round or what the extent of the whole world was. all they knew that existed what they lived in at the time, and what they could see within walking distance. im pretty sure Noah, didnt travel to australia to pick up 2 kangaroos and to south america to save 2 sloths. it does stand to reason he had 2 of every animal known in the region (most likely the domesticated animals of the day.)

the archaeology of the bible is very interresting. in my life, scientific findings have supported the stories of soddom and gamorrah being destroyed by fire and brimstone, the walls of jehrico suddenly crumbling, as stated above, a large regionnal flood, the plagues and pestillences of Moses in egypt, the existance of a King David in Jerusalem.

as of now, i think this is the 3rd site where they think they may have found the ark. one most popular one is the thing stuck in the glacier popularized by "Unsolved Mysteries". (i think this one has since been ruled out as the ark)

another is in turkey, where wood particles and iron rivots matching the the cubit dimensions have been detected, buried underground,

and now this story.

anyways, just looking at the bible as a collection of literature, stories, history, censuses, etc. the main character, God, does not feel the need to provide proof of his existance. the whole premise and underlying stories is based on faith rather than scientific evidence. the fact that archaeological findings are giving more credence to these stories is cool, but for those who are waiting to find an ancient stone vhs tape with video footage of God will be disappointed. proof of God is not the point, neither is Proving his existance. faith is what its all about.

Livinginthe past
06-30-2006, 04:36 PM
only the naive religious zealots believe the whole world flooded, just like the ones who believe man didnt exist before 5000 years ago. many of these "fables" were written 2-3000 years ago, long before man knew the earth was round or what the extent of the whole world was. all they knew that existed what they lived in at the time, and what they could see within walking distance. im pretty sure Noah, didnt travel to australia to pick up 2 kangaroos and to south america to save 2 sloths. it does stand to reason he had 2 of every animal known in the region (most likely the domesticated animals of the day.)

the archaeology of the bible is very interresting. in my life, scientific findings have supported the stories of soddom and gamorrah being destroyed by fire and brimstone, the walls of jehrico suddenly crumbling, as stated above, a large regionnal flood, the plagues and pestillences of Moses in egypt, the existance of a King David in Jerusalem.

as of now, i think this is the 3rd site where they think they may have found the ark. one most popular one is the thing stuck in the glacier popularized by "Unsolved Mysteries". (i think this one has since been ruled out as the ark)

another is in turkey, where wood particles and iron rivots matching the the cubit dimensions have been detected, buried underground,

and now this story.

anyways, just looking at the bible as a collection of literature, stories, history, censuses, etc. the main character, God, does not feel the need to provide proof of his existance. the whole premise and underlying stories is based on faith rather than scientific evidence. the fact that archaeological findings are giving more credence to these stories is cool, but for those who are waiting to find an ancient stone vhs tape with video footage of God will be disappointed. proof of God is not the point, neither is Proving his existance. faith is what its all about.

Im guessing that we can surmise that the fire and brimstone would be a volcanic eruption - alot of stuff that is explained by simple science these days was misunderstood centuries ago.

On another note, I have found the theory of blind faith - and that is what religious faith is - extremely convenient - its like me telling you there is a 100 ft diameter donut floating just outside our known existense - I cant prove its there and you can't prove it isn't.

I feel the burden of proof should be on the people coming up the theory.

Thats not to say I dont feel religion can be a good thing, all depends on the people using it, much like anything else in life.

NM

tony hipchest
06-30-2006, 04:54 PM
if billions of people believed and had faith in this donut it would make it a little more real and easier to believe.

but strictly from a scientific and biological point of view and the procreation, longevity, and evolution of the species, i have faith that the "love your neighbor" philosophy is much better than the slaughter all your neighbors and look out for #1. while i cant prove it, some religion's and science seem to go hand in hand on this belief.

the crationism vs. evolution is a very interesting debate. i am a firm believer in that some of the earliest forms of art are stone carved fertility goddeses and cave wal paintings dating back to 25,000-40,000 years ago. i am also a firm believer that civilization, the domestication of animals, farming, record keeping was born about 5000 years ago arount the tigris / euphrates valley region (the projected homeland of adam and eve and the garden of eden). many of the biblical stories are very poignant from a historical point of view, especially looking at the people who wrote them and the audience they were written for.

Livinginthe past
06-30-2006, 05:45 PM
Sure. Man has always been a story telling beast - from cave paintings to novels.

I seen some amazing artwork that the Aboriginals created in Australia - I have also witnessed amazing places of worship in Cambodia, Vietnam and Thailand.

Religion can be an awe inspiring thing, and I dont pretend to have the definitive answers, but I need a little more than other peoples word for something before ill base my life around it.

NM

tony hipchest
06-30-2006, 05:51 PM
Sure. Man has always been a story telling beast - from cave paintings to novels.

I seen some amazing artwork that the Aboriginals created in Australia - I have also witnessed amazing places of worship in Cambodia, Vietnam and Thailand.

Religion can be an awe inspiring thing, and I dont pretend to have the definitive answers, but I need a little more than other peoples word for something before ill base my life around it.

NM oh ye of little faith. i just go by what makes the most sense.

a boat found in the mountains wont change much, nor would finding the ark of the covenant as far as im concerned. but it would be cool. especially if as depicted in indiana jones movies.

Livinginthe past
06-30-2006, 05:56 PM
Would Tony Hipchest make it across the chasm with the invisible pathway?

I think being a supporter of the Steelers would help you choose the right (most humble) chalice anyway :cool:

NM

tony hipchest
06-30-2006, 06:00 PM
Would Tony Hipchest make it across the chasm with the invisible pathway?

I think being a supporter of the Steelers would help you choose the right (most humble) chalice anyway :cool:

NM

:sofunny: definitely (on both counts)

on a sidenote, the "leap of faith" was the coolest effect in pt 3

CantStop85
06-30-2006, 07:12 PM
the crationism vs. evolution is a very interesting debate. i am a firm believer in that some of the earliest forms of art are stone carved fertility goddeses and cave wal paintings dating back to 25,000-40,000 years ago. i am also a firm believer that civilization, the domestication of animals, farming, record keeping was born about 5000 years ago arount the tigris / euphrates valley region (the projected homeland of adam and eve and the garden of eden). many of the biblical stories are very poignant from a historical point of view, especially looking at the people who wrote them and the audience they were written for.
I don't think at this point that anyone can argue against evolution with all the evidence that has been provided for it.

However, the one scientific theory that is about as unscientific as God's creation of the world is the Big Bang theory. No one really has any idea what went on before the Big Bang, or what caused it. The theory is that it was a "singularity," a moment when the laws of physics did not hold true. At the moment of the Big Bang, the density of the universe and the curvature of space-time seem to have been infinite. Because of this, all physical laws broke down. All science can tell us is that this is the way the universe is now, because of what happened then. But it cannot tell us exactly how, or why.

So what exactly caused the Big Bang? Where did this big ball of matter/energy come from to begin with? Oh, it was just there...oh, ok.

tony hipchest
06-30-2006, 07:22 PM
I don't think at this point that anyone can argue against evolution with all the evidence that has been provided for it.

However, the one scientific theory that is about as unscientific as God's creation of the world is the Big Bang theory. No one really has any idea what went on before the Big Bang, or what caused it. The theory is that it was a "singularity," a moment when the laws of physics did not hold true. At the moment of the Big Bang, the density of the universe and the curvature of space-time seem to have been infinite. Because of this, all physical laws broke down. All science can tell us is that this is the way the universe is now, because of what happened then. But it cannot tell us exactly how, or why.

So what exactly caused the Big Bang? Where did this big ball of matter/energy come from to begin with? Oh, it was just there...oh, ok.great post. and this post represents the ultimate stalemate. this is where faith really comes to play cause neither side or position can be proven. you have the side with faith, and you have the side without faith. like i say, i go with the side that makes the most sense. the side that procreates the species and says their is hope and better things ahead, is much better to believe than we are all on a one way ticket to doom and extinction and nothingness.

Koopa
06-30-2006, 07:47 PM
y'all that don't really have faith, i kinda suggest read this book that my grandma bought me a few years ago when i was questioning if god was real and saying scientist make more sense blah blah blah. this book opened my eyes, didn't make me believe really but it was intresting. it's called "seach for the truth" by bruce a. malone. it has a bunch of articles pretty much shutting down the theory of evoluation.

what made me keep faith is what my grandma told me. i rather die believing and be wrong, then die not believing and be wrong. so that's why i chose to believe in god and don't question it anymore, becasue basically having faith ain't gonna hurt whether you are wrong or not

CantStop85
06-30-2006, 07:54 PM
what made me keep faith is what my grandma told me. i rather die believing and be wrong, then die not believing and be wrong. so that's why i chose to believe in god and don't question it anymore, becasue basically having faith ain't gonna hurt whether you are wrong or not
TH and Koopa make a good point...either way you look at life, through a creationist's eyes or a scientist's eyes at some point or another you're going to have to make some leap of faith. Me, I'd prefer to take the leap of faith that basically proves itself through not proving itself and promises an ultimate reward at the end. If I'm wrong, well I'm going to go to the same place as if I were a non-believer and right -- nowhere.

Either way, I believe religion is a great thing for society. If we didn't have it at all, just imagine what the world would be like. The principal values and morals of most religions are what maintain a healthy order in the world. If there weren't the beliefs in things such as love and hope, we'd be left with hate and violence. All the details might not be right, but the ideas behind religion are.

clevestinks
06-30-2006, 08:00 PM
I would like to see them find the ark. I`m on the fence as far as religion goes. I want to believe andI think I do. But I would like more proof. I do though send my daughter to a Christian school. I believe even if nothing is true, its still something to believe

tony hipchest
06-30-2006, 08:14 PM
I would like to see them find the ark. I`m on the fence as far as religion goes. I want to believe andI think I do. But I would like more proof. I do though send my daughter to a Christian school. I believe even if nothing is true, its still something to believe and that something to believe in is the ultimate purpose. do i believe george washington actually chopped down a cherry tree? doesnt matter. i still believe a man named gw lived and breathed, walked the earth and did great things. founding america and the principals we stand for is much better than never existing at all.

(pardon the comparrison)

the ark is possibly out there, as are the great pyramids of egypt. if the ark were built that strong, big, and out of stone, im sure it wouldve been found already. it is a classic case of searching for a needle in a haystack though. it is very conceivable that if there were an ark and if there were a flood, it wouldve been chopped up and used for building a house, and firewood. theoretically, after a flood, there would not be many building materials left behind.

Livinginthe past
07-01-2006, 03:04 AM
TH and Koopa make a good point...either way you look at life, through a creationist's eyes or a scientist's eyes at some point or another you're going to have to make some leap of faith. Me, I'd prefer to take the leap of faith that basically proves itself through not proving itself and promises an ultimate reward at the end. If I'm wrong, well I'm going to go to the same place as if I were a non-believer and right -- nowhere.

Either way, I believe religion is a great thing for society. If we didn't have it at all, just imagine what the world would be like. The principal values and morals of most religions are what maintain a healthy order in the world. If there weren't the beliefs in things such as love and hope, we'd be left with hate and violence. All the details might not be right, but the ideas behind religion are.

Thats a very calculating approach to religion 85 - im impressed :cool:

I think that religion and God are tools utilised by man - all through existence it has been a basic human need to believe in a larger controlling force.

I think alot of the reason is to try and give context to what we achieve here on earth in our lifetime.

Another conundrum that has always puzzled me - we are used to everything having finite size - what about space?

When you think about it infinity is a fairly lazy solution - and scientists will tell you the universe is still growing - so what is outside it?

Nothing?

Define nothing.

Anyway, enjoyed reading everyones posts.

NM

hardwork
07-01-2006, 03:41 AM
Either way, I believe religion is a great thing for society. If we didn't have it at all, just imagine what the world would be like. The principal values and morals of most religions are what maintain a healthy order in the world. If there weren't the beliefs in things such as love and hope, we'd be left with hate and violence. All the details might not be right, but the ideas behind religion are.


I see it a little bit differently 85. I think religion is the expression of the need we have for that "healthy order" you talk about. I suspect the need was first and that religion was a way of writing it down, or storifying it, and passing it on. If religion were suddenly erased from our minds I think we would still be left with a desire for order, love, morality, etc. I doubt that without this need we would have survived as a species. After all compared to what else was around as we evolved we were very small and weak. It was our ability to work as an ordered group that protected our young, protected our pregnant females, got us food. and the like.

The Buddhist believe that this ability to organize, feel compassion, work as one, is the natural state of the human mind. Buddhism in many ways is about ordering your mind, and finally having complete trust in it. I suspect they are right.

Lyn
07-01-2006, 08:24 AM
I don't think at this point that anyone can argue against evolution with all the evidence that has been provided for it.

However, the one scientific theory that is about as unscientific as God's creation of the world is the Big Bang theory. No one really has any idea what went on before the Big Bang, or what caused it. The theory is that it was a "singularity," a moment when the laws of physics did not hold true. At the moment of the Big Bang, the density of the universe and the curvature of space-time seem to have been infinite. Because of this, all physical laws broke down. All science can tell us is that this is the way the universe is now, because of what happened then. But it cannot tell us exactly how, or why.

So what exactly caused the Big Bang? Where did this big ball of matter/energy come from to begin with? Oh, it was just there...oh, ok.

Here is the Big Bang argument for the existence of God http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theodore_schick/bigbang.html

Lyn
07-01-2006, 08:41 AM
Here are 10 things that contradict Big Bang theory:

http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/q1794.html

CAH
07-01-2006, 12:35 PM
If Noah built a boat to house two of every species, HMS Queen Mary wouldn't be big enough. Wonder how the animals were fed? The lions eat the rabbits, etc.?

The boat, as Godfather said, would be long rotted away by now. These stories about finding the ark are just that - stories. It serves to make the religious people happy and that's OK with me but there is no ark remaining.

Maidenarcher
07-01-2006, 08:07 PM
Lyn,

Thank you for the article...
Who knows if they found the ark or not...I'm just dumbfounded by so many peoples remarks about not believing in God or Christianity.....I do respect there opinions though.
I guess it takes an extremely strong person to take a step of faith and believe in something that we can't see. It's not that hard...I breathe air, but I cannot see it...However, I feel it all around me...That is how I feel about God....But then, a person who does not have God in their life could never understand or fathom what that is like.
I am no religious fanatic by any means. Those kind of folks scare me....However, Science doesn't mean much to me.. One decade they prove this, then 20 years later they disprove the same thing..

I agree with the person that said if I live a life obeying the simple 10 things that God asked me to do and I die...I have nothing to lose if I am wrong...I have lived a good life...But for those who don't believe and die...What if they are wrong? I personally don't want to take that chance....However, that is not why I live the way I live..

One last thing to ponder on...I know there are many religions. I am not here to say anything negative about them. However, I wonder if anyone stops to realize that nobody persecutes you for being Buddhist, Scientologist,Hindu, Muslim, or any other religion except CHRISTIAN...The only religion that people are offended by is Christianity...Other religions are accepted by society. That ought to tell folks a lot....People are so offended by the mention of God...Why would so many people be offended by something positive? That and so many other things right there tells me I am on the right track.

I know many of you will not agree with my opinion, but I'm okay with that. However, like everyone else I am entitled to say what is on my mind and use my freedom of speech.

CAH
07-01-2006, 09:05 PM
Maiden, I'm a non-believer but I respect all religions except those people using snakes in their service. Why should I condemn anyone for thinking a certain way? Except for those damned snakes. I hate those things along with spiders.

If someone posted the 10 Commandments facing my house, wouldn't bother me at all. Wouldn't think any differently if they planted flowers I didn't really like. That's a lie. LOL I seem to like any flower.

What I'm trying to say is for you to do your thing and think the way you please and don't get defensive about it. Some of my best friends are Christians. :smile:

Maidenarcher
07-01-2006, 09:10 PM
Maiden, I'm a non-believer but I respect all religions except those people using snakes in their service. Why should I condemn anyone for thinking a certain way? Except for those damned snakes. I hate those things along with spiders.

If someone posted the 10 Commandments facing my house, wouldn't bother me at all. Wouldn't think any differently if they planted flowers I didn't really like. That's a lie. LOL I seem to like any flower.

What I'm trying to say is for you to do your thing and think the way you please and don't get defensive about it. Some of my best friends are Christians. :smile:


Thats Cool!
I appreciate your comments...
Oh, and I agree with the snakes....That's so funny that you would even think of that to bring it up...

CantStop85
07-01-2006, 10:07 PM
However, I wonder if anyone stops to realize that nobody persecutes you for being Buddhist, Scientologist,Hindu, Muslim, or any other religion except CHRISTIAN...The only religion that people are offended by is Christianity...Other religions are accepted by society.
Wow...you believe current-day Christians are being persecuted? Wow. Try looking back at the Christians of hundreds of years ago. They were jailed, beaten, tortured, quartered, and stoned to death for their beliefs. Actually, you can go to some of the more remote countries in the world today and witness the same things. That's persecution...we as Americans are lucky to have the amount of religious freedom that we do.

Right now in America you're seeing a movement towards the separation of religion from state. I'm all for equal religious treatment. You think the removal of Christian symbols from the government is a bad thing? Well, look at it this way...pretend America was a Buddhist-predominant country and you were still a Christian. How would you feel about seeing "In Buddha We Trust" on all of your currency or having to swear on the Tipitaka (sacred book of Buddhism) in court as a witness on the stand?

Nothing's preventing you from going to the church of your choice or worshipping on your own. Just because Christianity isn't being put up in neon lights doesn't mean we as Christians are being persecuted.

Maidenarcher
07-02-2006, 09:19 AM
Wow...you believe current-day Christians are being persecuted? Wow. Try looking back at the Christians of hundreds of years ago. They were jailed, beaten, tortured, quartered, and stoned to death for their beliefs. Actually, you can go to some of the more remote countries in the world today and witness the same things. That's persecution...we as Americans are lucky to have the amount of religious freedom that we do.

Right now in America you're seeing a movement towards the separation of religion from state. I'm all for equal religious treatment. You think the removal of Christian symbols from the government is a bad thing? Well, look at it this way...pretend America was a Buddhist-predominant country and you were still a Christian. How would you feel about seeing "In Buddha We Trust" on all of your currency or having to swear on the Tipitaka (sacred book of Buddhism) in court as a witness on the stand?

Nothing's preventing you from going to the church of your choice or worshipping on your own. Just because Christianity isn't being put up in neon lights doesn't mean we as Christians are being persecuted.

Clearly, I was just trying to make a point...And persecuted doesn't always have to mean someone has to be beaten, Thank God...:usa: :usa: :usa: However, you are right, I as an American am blessed, not lucky, to have the amount of religious freedom that I have.
As for the separation for church and state. This country was founded on God...It is obvious everywhere....Many people confuse the whole church and state issue...Go to the online encyclopedia, Wikipedia and you can read some of the info yourself. People say that they should be separate according to our Bill of Rights, Consitution, Amendments,or whatever it is...I am curious? Didn't the people who help start this country create those rights..So if church and state were really suppose to be separated why would they have put God on everything from money to almost everything I have seen in Washington...If it was against our rightsand laws, I doubt they would have ever allowed God to be put all over from the start...
People want to take God off the money, out of schools, and anywhere they can and then wonder why He isn't answering their calls when catastrophy happens....Why would He? Didn't everybody ask him to go?

Ya know, I am thrilled that I live in this country. A place where you and I both can believe whatever we want, discuss it, and then be cool to each other afterwards. Nice talking with you.

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-02-2006, 10:10 AM
only the naive religious zealots believe the whole world flooded,


Well, Tony I guess I have to put myself into the catagory of naive religious Zealot. As a man of faith I have been forced into the dubious position of looking at both sides of the equation, and have found nothing that changes or shakes my beliefs. At the risk of sounding self-important and conceited ..I want to state that I consider myself an educated person..I have a Masters degree and an IQ of 137...I have not came to my present day stance of what I believe without thoughtful contemplation and research. I DO understand the non-believers lack of understanding in regards to that "Leap of Faith", and as it pertains to those things that they cannot see, feel, or converse with...
but my experience (also at a risk of being slammed for my beliefs) is that I DO see God in the things of nature...I have felt His presense in times of sorrow and in times of peace...I talk with Him and He in turn answers me with a "Yes".."NO"..or "Wait".
Something outside of Natures Laws had to start the progress that we see in those things around us....Even if you believe in the big bang...you have to ask yourself...Who or what started the chain of events ...If all matter started as one small dot and then exploded ...Where did the matter come from...?
I'm not trying to convert anyone...but I truly do have an easier time believing that the world could flood ..than I have believing that all matter poofed into existance on its own. In my mind ..to believe in the latter requires a greater "Leap of Faith"

CAH
07-02-2006, 10:25 AM
Putting "in God We Trust" on money wasn't started until the 20th century. As a non-believer, I wouldn't care if they put "CAH is an *******" on all money just as long as I get enough to buy important things like Steelers tickets and living expenses. People get too hypered over the most trivial things.

Having no religion is a lot of fun. I put up a Christmas tree every year, buy Christmas presents, don't have to donate to any church and take off Jewish holidays when it was allowed. I get the best of all worlds. :peace:

Maidenarcher
07-02-2006, 01:34 PM
Putting "in God We Trust" on money wasn't started until the 20th century. As a non-believer, I wouldn't care if they put "CAH is an *******" on all money just as long as I get enough to buy important things like Steelers tickets and living expenses. People get too hypered over the most trivial things.

Having no religion is a lot of fun. I put up a Christmas tree every year, buy Christmas presents, don't have to donate to any church and take off Jewish holidays when it was allowed. I get the best of all worlds. :peace:


I can see that you probably don't give a darn, but I am curious as to your opinion anyway...LOL....I, like lamberts-lost-tooth never try to speak about anything that I don't know about or haven't researched...I am a nut for knowledge. I am aware of when "IN God We Trust" was put on money, about the origins of TAPS, or any patriotic or Godly thing that was put into place in this country....As stated in my earlier post. Why would they allow anything regarding God be put on our money, in our anthems, on our political buildings in Washington if it went against the whole separation of church and state?

God, Family, America.........I love them all...
God Bless ALL of our military who fight for our freedoms.....Happy 4th to all.....

CantStop85
07-02-2006, 01:51 PM
Why would they allow anything regarding God be put on our money, in our anthems, on our political buildings in Washington if it went against the whole separation of church and state?
Just because they did allow the mentioning of Yahweh in political domain doesn't mean it doesn't go against the separation of church and state. Your argument is like saying that slavery didn't go against the "All men are created equal" statement in the Declaration because the government allowed it to happen.

Goverment and religion do not belong together. If you disagree, take a look at past governments that relied on religion and see how they turned out. It just doesn't work. To me personally it's no big deal to see a few Christian references here and there, but when a country begins to politically divide over the issue of religion, things get ugly.

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-02-2006, 02:25 PM
[QUOTE=Maidenarcher]Many people confuse the whole church and state issue...Go to the online encyclopedia, Wikipedia and you can read some of the info yourself. People say that they should be separate according to our Bill of Rights, Consitution, Amendments,or whatever it is...QUOTE]


Actually and interesting enough..the seperation of church and state is not mentioned in the Constitution...The Danbury Baptist Association, concerned about religious liberty in the our new counttry wrote to President Thomas Jefferson on Oct. 7, 1801. The content of the letter was such as to what concerns the association had in regards to the Government interferring in church matters..not the other way around...Baptists in Danbury, Connecticut were persecuted because they were not part of the Congretationalist establishment in that state.

On January 1, 1802, in response to the letter from the Danbury Baptist Association, Thomas Jefferson wrote back and stated:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should `make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or "prohibiting the free exercise thereof"," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all of his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessings of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem.

Thomas Jefferson

To the best of my knowledge this is the first time that the seperation was mentioned and it was in regards to protecting the church in one of two ways....No Church would ever become the approved government church and the government would not interfere with Church rights or worship.


LLT

CantStop85
07-02-2006, 03:28 PM
As for the separation for church and state. This country was founded on God...It is obvious everywhere....Many people confuse the whole church and state issue...Go to the online encyclopedia, Wikipedia and you can read some of the info yourself. People say that they should be separate according to our Bill of Rights, Consitution, Amendments,or whatever it is...I am curious? Didn't the people who help start this country create those rights..So if church and state were really suppose to be separated why would they have put God on everything from money to almost everything I have seen in Washington...If it was against our rightsand laws, I doubt they would have ever allowed God to be put all over from the start...
As Lambert mentioned, the idea of separation of church and state originated from Thomas Jefferson (at least as far as the US is concerned).

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.
As a historical side-note, Jefferson’s letter was meant to reassure the Danbury Baptists that the Federal government had no power to regulate religious expression; the Baptists in America during the Founding generation were among the leading crusaders for complete separation of Church and State.

Contrary to popular belief, the phrase "separation of church and state" is not mentioned anywhere in the constitution or bill of rights. The first amendment is the most relevant thing you will find. This is what the First Amendment actually says:


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
What exactly making no law respecting an establishment of religion means might not be entirely clear at first glance. One way to cash it out would be separation between Church and State. This is where things get construed. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights are very vague when it comes to some issues and oftentimes they are misinterpreted by today's society and the original intentions of the founding fathers are lost.

Thomas Jefferson, being one of these founding fathers, clearly supported the idea of separation between church and state. By looking at other groups of people and individuals of the time, we see the same themes. The founding fathers did not intend for the U.S. to have a strict, Christian-based government, for that's what their ancestors had escaped from in Europe, a religious-based government. Instead, the founding fathers wanted to create a government that showed no type of religious preference, one that allowed each individual to choose and practice their own beliefs with no influence from the government.

tony hipchest
07-02-2006, 03:41 PM
The boat, as Godfather said, would be long rotted away by now. These stories about finding the ark are just that - stories. It serves to make the religious people happy and that's OK with me but there is no ark remaining. yeah i guess iron rivots just rot away, and a wooly mammoth has never been found preserved in ice.:rolleyes: not saying the ark has been found but you dont have no clue if its still buried out there somewhere. thanks for your expertise though :rolleyes:

CAH
07-02-2006, 05:23 PM
yeah i guess iron rivots just rot away, and a wooly mammoth has never been found preserved in ice.:rolleyes: not saying the ark has been found but you dont have no clue if its still buried out there somewhere. thanks for your expertise though :rolleyes:
Sweetie, the wood rots but I have yet to hear about iron rivets being found that belonged to Noah's Ark. Of course I don't know but we built this house with redwood siding and after 20 years, two of the siding boards started to rot, due to weather. No termites were involved so we were told it was weather. Those boards were replaced with treated lumber and so far so good. Wonder if Noah used treated lumber? I don't think so.

CantStop85
07-02-2006, 05:32 PM
Sweetie, the wood rots but I have yet to hear about iron rivets being found that belonged to Noah's Ark. Of course I don't know but we built this house with redwood siding and after 20 years, two of the siding boards started to rot, due to weather. No termites were involved so we were told it was weather. Those boards were replaced with treated lumber and so far so good. Wonder if Noah used treated lumber? I don't think so.
I'd say if the ark existed, there would have been some sort of metal framing to keep the boat's form. Or at the very least, there would be metal bolts, metal anything...there might not be very much left of the ark, but I'd say there'd be trace amounts.

tony hipchest
07-02-2006, 05:51 PM
Sweetie, the wood rots but I have yet to hear about iron rivets being found that belonged to Noah's Ark. Of course I don't know but we built this house with redwood siding and after 20 years, two of the siding boards started to rot, due to weather. No termites were involved so we were told it was weather. Those boards were replaced with treated lumber and so far so good. Wonder if Noah used treated lumber? I don't think so. i guess your not too familiar with the 3 proposed sites of the arks remains then. whether you heard about rivets or not is kinda irrelevant. iron doesnt rot.

and the wood on your house is definitely poor comparisson. they have pulled boats out of the mud near jerusalem dating back to the time of jesus.

a human body will decompose in a matter of weeks in a swamp, yet those found in the ice and desert have been preserved for centuries.

of course you "dont know." nice try sweetie! :bouncy:

Maidenarcher
07-02-2006, 06:32 PM
Lambert and CantStop,

I saw where you replied to my comments: Many people confuse the whole church and state issue...Go to the online encyclopedia, Wikipedia and you can read some of the info yourself. People say that they should be separate according to our Bill of Rights, Consitution, Amendments,or whatever it is.

The separation of church and state was not mentioned in the Consitition. I wasn't trying to say it was. That was my whole point......Which is why I gave the reference of reading about it in Wikipedia so people could read about it for themselves instead of taking my word for it....In Wikipedia it mentions Jefferson....
My comment said people, not I, say the separation is because of the Bill of Rights, Consitution, Amendments,or whatever it is. In those cases people are ignorant because they say things and never find out for themselves what the truth is...

So, either I miscommunicated myself while hurrying this morning while trying to post my message and trying to get ready for church (which is very possible) or my words are just getting twisted around...I don't know....Either way I'm cool! LOL

By the way, thanks for message and the reps!!

CantStop85
07-02-2006, 06:46 PM
Lambert and CantStop,

I saw where you replied to my comments: Many people confuse the whole church and state issue...Go to the online encyclopedia, Wikipedia and you can read some of the info yourself. People say that they should be separate according to our Bill of Rights, Consitution, Amendments,or whatever it is.

The separation of church and state was not mentioned in the Consitition. I wasn't trying to say it was. That was my whole point......Which is why I gave the reference of reading about it in Wikipedia so people could read about it for themselves instead of taking my word for it....In Wikipedia it mentions Jefferson....
My comment said people, not I, say the separation is because of the Bill of Rights, Consitution, Amendments,or whatever it is. In those cases people are ignorant because they say things and never find out for themselves what the truth is...

So, either I miscommunicated myself while hurrying this morning while trying to post my message and trying to get ready for church (which is very possible) or my words are just getting twisted around...I don't know....Either way I'm cool! LOL

By the way, thanks for message and the reps!!
In the first part of my post I acknowledged that separation of Church and State was not mentioned in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights...then I went on to explain how it actually was the original intention of the founding fathers to keep Church and State separate (that was my main point). The Constitution has since been misinterpreted and various religious symbols have been added.

CAH
07-03-2006, 07:07 PM
i guess your not too familiar with the 3 proposed sites of the arks remains then. whether you heard about rivets or not is kinda irrelevant. iron doesnt rot.

and the wood on your house is definitely poor comparisson. they have pulled boats out of the mud near jerusalem dating back to the time of jesus.

a human body will decompose in a matter of weeks in a swamp, yet those found in the ice and desert have been preserved for centuries.

of course you "dont know." nice try sweetie! :bouncy:

This is getting funny. I'm saying Noah never built a boat that housed 2 of all the species in the world. Impossible. The boat would have to be so large to keep all the animals separate so they wouldn't eat one another and they all had to be fed and what would they be fed?

The bible made up the story b/c it had a nice ring to it and it would have been nice if all of that happened but logically, you know it didn't. It really doesn't matter since we are free to believe what we want. Just be true to yourself.