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mesaSteeler
02-05-2012, 08:31 AM
(Mods I thought about putting this under the NFL fourm but there are quotes from Hines in the article so I decided to put it here. - mesa)

The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots
Sunday, February 05, 2012
By Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

INDIANAPOLIS -- Mike Tomlin calls it the sticky Lombardi because of all the handprints that stick to the trophy after the NFL commissioner awards it to the new Super Bowl champions.

Many believe the three Lombardi Trophies previously won by the New England Patriots remain sticky for other reasons and that perhaps Roger Goodell should have dusted them for fingerprints rather than destroy the evidence of wrongdoing that helped produce that cache.

Spygate, they called it. Coach Bill Belichick's Patriots were caught redhanded in 2007 secretly taping opponents' coaches' hand signals and, presumably, matching them with video cutups of plays in order for New England's defense to know which offensive play was coming.

That violated NFL policy, and Goodell fined Belichick the maximum of $500,000, fined the Patriots $250,000 and docked them a first-round draft choice in 2008. Then the commissioner destroyed the evidence, the tapes that prompted him to levy the punishment. One theory is that those tapes may have provided such clear evidence of cheating that to be made public would be to forever call in question New England's three Super Bowl victories. So Goodell pulled his Rosemary Woods and erased them.

"This episode represents a calculated and deliberate attempt to avoid longstanding rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition on the playing field," Goodell wrote in a letter to the Patriots explaining his disciplinary action.

The Patriots shrugged that off in 2007 and became the first team to go 16-0 and won two more in the playoffs but were upset by the New York Giants in Super Bowl XLII.

Both teams have returned here for a rematch in XLVI. It's a chance for the Patriots to cleanse themselves, to put a clean Lombardi next to the sticky ones in their trophy case.

The stigma of possibly winning those first three under a cloud of cheating remains. Belichick declined to answer questions about it here, but others have no problem doing so.

"They definitely cheated," said Hines Ward, who will be part of NBC's five-hour pregame show today.

Ward's opinions, like those of most Steelers involved in the 2001 and 2004 AFC championship games, are much stronger because they are convinced the Patriots won both of those games in Heinz Field because they cheated.

They are not the lone voices on the matter, though.

Amani Toomer, a longtime Giants receiver now retired, helped beat the Patriots four years ago in this game. He said this week he would place an asterisk next to the Patriots' three Super Bowl victories.

"I would, I definitely would without question," Toomer said on the "Jim Rome Show." "If you know what their adjustments are and what their signals are and you practice those signals, it's cheating.

"I feel very strongly about it because this game is as much about the level playing field of the NFL, and the league has built up so much goodwill to let everybody know that what you're watching is the real deal. The fact that the Spygate thing goes directly to the core that the NFL is, to me it is a big deal."

It makes this game even that much more important for the Patriots. If they can win one with this cast, essentially not as talented as those who won the other three, then they can at least show that perhaps had they not cheated, had they done things legitimately, they might still have won two or three Super Bowls.

"That's a good point," said linebacker Chad Brown, who joined the Patriots in 2007 when Spygate blew up. "As a former Patriot, I tend to gloss over that, and I don't understand how other fans and players view that. But it's a real thing."

Brown says a Patriots victory today "would remove any tarnish they put on what they had done in the past. This would clean it up and kind of move it out of the discussion, in my mind."

Ward also believes that a New England victory somehow will polish those three previous Lombardis in the Patriots trophy case.

"Yeah," he said after laughing at the question, "they would."

It's no laughing matter to Toomer, even though Spygate had no direct affect on him.

"Tom Brady hasn't won a Super Bowl since Spygate," Toomer told Rome.

"So if they don't win another Super Bowl with Brady, with Belichick, the three Super Bowls that they did win are going to be tainted. It's going to be like Barry Bonds, you're going to look at these three Super Bowls with an asterisk because of Spygate."

Brown said during his brief time with the Patriots, starting in that 2007 season, he did not sense any hanky-panky going on other than they mysterious workings of a mysterious man on the New England staff, Ernie Adams. Belichick and Adams have been friends since prep school, and Adams has been on staffs with Cleveland and New England, although not as a coach. The Patriots list him as director of research, and he is thought to have been a key element in Spygate.

"He plays a very interesting role within that organization," Chad Brown said. "He's not a coach, he doesn't really talk to players, but he talks to Bill after each practice. They walk off the field, and I guess he's able to act as a second mind, a second set of eyes for Bill.

"It's an amazing relationship. Certainly there are times during a game on the sideline, you hear Bill ask for Ernie upstairs: 'Ernie, what do you think?' He consults with him. Their relationship is shrouded in such secrecy. Even as a player on that team, you can't help but go, 'Huh! I wonder what did happen there?'"
For more on the Steelers, read the blog, Ed Bouchette on the Steelers at www.post-gazette.com/plus. Ed Bouchette: ebouchette@post-gazette.com and Twitter @EdBouchette

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/12036/1208250-66-0.stm#ixzz1lWA9GX1Y

VTsteel
02-05-2012, 09:37 AM
"They definitely cheated," said Hines Ward, who will be part of NBC's five-hour pregame show today.

Ward's opinions, like those of most Steelers involved in the 2001 and 2004 AFC championship games, are much stronger because they are convinced the Patriots won both of those games in Heinz Field because they cheated.




I think the most troubling thing that I have read on any Steelers forum is that there are some Steelers faithful that still disagree with Ward's assessment that the *Cheats won those games in whole because of their cheating . . .

I mean for real. Even (years) before Spygate broke - Ward was quoted as saying ". . . . it's like they knew what we were gonna run before we ran it". I remember saying to my Father-in-law during the 2001 game . . . That it was funny how the Pats would be ALL OVER some plays we ran that we hadn't run all year. I remember saying How the F^ck did they sniff that out so quickly????

Then years later Spygate broke . . . and it all made sense.


Even if the *Cheats win today it will never remove the cloud of deception and lack of integrity form their three trophies. I will even go so far as to say - If they do win today - It was probably because they cheated . . .

A zebra (I'm looking at you Belicheat) never changes it's stripes.

Bayz101
02-05-2012, 09:44 AM
"They definitely cheated," said Hines Ward, who will be part of NBC's five-hour pregame show today.

Ward's opinions, like those of most Steelers involved in the 2001 and 2004 AFC championship games, are much stronger because they are convinced the Patriots won both of those games in Heinz Field because they cheated.




I think the most troubling thing that I have read on any Steelers forum is that there are some Steelers faithful that still disagree with Ward's assessment that the *Cheats won those games in whole because of their cheating . . .

I mean for real. Even (years) before Spygate broke - Ward was quoted as saying ". . . . it's like they knew what we were gonna run before we ran it". I remember saying to my Father-in-law during the 2001 game . . . That it was funny how the Pats would be ALL OVER some plays we ran that we hadn't run all year. I remember saying How the F^ck did they sniff that out so quickly????

Then years later Spygate broke . . . and it all made sense.


Even if the *Cheats win today it will never remove the cloud of deception and lack of integrity form their three trophies. I will even go so far as to say - If they do win today - It was probably because they cheated . . .

A zebra (I'm looking at you Belicheat) never changes it's stripes.

This.

zcoop
02-05-2012, 10:43 AM
This.

And that.

stb_steeler
02-05-2012, 10:44 AM
Whats really amazing thru all that crap is, a mere slap on the wrist to billacheat and patriots.
And goodhell destroys all the evidence before being viewed by a panel. Why is it that this putrid commish needs a panel of cronies to sort out bad hits by James Harrison but he makes a quick and quiet decision to destroy tapes. Some day this sport is going to go down as the sport that ( used) to be great! Thanx to that idiot........:mad:

FanSince72
02-05-2012, 10:57 AM
Like the old saying goes, “If you're not cheating, you're not trying”

Bellichik is hardly the first coach to try to gain an edge on an opponent and I'm sure he won't be the last.
Guys my age probably remember George Allen posting security guards along the perimeter of his practice field to keep "others" from filming his plays.
Besides paranoia, the reason he did that is because other coaches were trying to steal his plays (and I'm pretty sure none of them were named Bellichik).

In baseball, stealing signs is almost a hallowed tradition along with spitballs and razor blades tucked into pitcher's baseball caps.

Is it right?

Probably not.

But it's hardly new and Bellichik certainly didn't invent it.
Some people see him as a cheater while others see him as an innovator but whatever he is, he's always trying to stay ahead of the curve.

I mean, how many coaches would think to have their team "practice" a Super Bowl halftime? :applaudit:

stb_steeler
02-05-2012, 11:05 AM
Like the old saying goes, “If you're not cheating, you're not trying”

Bellichik is hardly the first coach to try to gain an edge on an opponent and I'm sure he won't be the last.
Guys my age probably remember George Allen posting security guards along the perimeter of his practice field to keep "others" from filming his plays.
Besides paranoia, the reason he did that is because other coaches were trying to steal his plays (and I'm pretty sure none of them were named Bellichik).

In baseball, stealing signs is almost a hallowed tradition along with spitballs and razor blades tucked into pitcher's baseball caps.

Is it right?

Probably not.

But it's hardly new and Bellichik certainly didn't invent it.
Some people see him as a cheater while others see him as an innovator but whatever he is, he's always trying to stay ahead of the curve.

I mean, how many coaches would think to have their team "practice" a Super Bowl halftime? :applaudit:

True.....its been done many times....But think of it this way. How would it make you feel knowing you did things like that no matter what it took (cheating ect.) to win the game. At the end of the day you'd have to ask your self am i really a great coach.

FanSince72
02-05-2012, 11:13 AM
True.....its been done many times....But think of it this way. How would it make you feel knowing you did things like that no matter what it took (cheating ect.) to win the game. At the end of the day you'd have to ask your self am i really a great coach.

In life I've learned that there's Ideology (the way things should be) and Reality (the way things are) and it's a rare day indeed when both can share the same room at the same time.

EbonySteel86
02-05-2012, 11:59 AM
Like the old saying goes, “If you're not cheating, you're not trying”

Bellichik is hardly the first coach to try to gain an edge on an opponent and I'm sure he won't be the last.
Guys my age probably remember George Allen posting security guards along the perimeter of his practice field to keep "others" from filming his plays.
Besides paranoia, the reason he did that is because other coaches were trying to steal his plays (and I'm pretty sure none of them were named Bellichik).

In baseball, stealing signs is almost a hallowed tradition along with spitballs and razor blades tucked into pitcher's baseball caps.

Is it right?

Probably not.

But it's hardly new and Bellichik certainly didn't invent it.
Some people see him as a cheater while others see him as an innovator but whatever he is, he's always trying to stay ahead of the curve.

I mean, how many coaches would think to have their team "practice" a Super Bowl halftime? :applaudit:
Belicheat was warned before hand, and he kept doing it, THEN he got fined! Honestly I wouldn't doubt if he found another method of cheating. F em!!

LambertWardSteel
02-05-2012, 04:03 PM
I would feel more along the lines of 'everyone does it' if the NFL would have caught and punished someone else and the tapes weren't destroyed. It would have been in the NFL's best interest to punish another team to prove that not only a 3x SB winner had done it.

Lebeau said after it went public "it's easier to pass the test when you know the questions beforehand". Hines Ward made the comment after the AFC CG "it seemed like they knew what plays we were running before we did". Additionally Steve Young said on a MNF pregame he had "no time for apologists who say everyone does it" and that he was "in the league 20 years and never heard of it or saw it" being done.

I think if those tapes would have shown something of little consequence they wouldn't have been destroyed.In my mind regardless of what the Cheats do today those previous 3 SBs are tainted. Judging from some of the player comments this past week they seem to think the same.

madtowndrunkard
02-05-2012, 09:46 PM
You can pretty much guarantee that the Patriots cheated this year to get to the SB.

If you have the balls to do what the Patriots did all those years..and win SB's doing it... do you really think because of that fine and loss of draft picks they'd stop doing it? Heck no...they just did a better job of covering it up.

Put your self in their shoes. Lets say at work you are given a bonus for getting to work before your co workers. You aren't allowed to leave the house early...everyone has to leave home at the same time.......but you can speed. It's illegal though. If you get caught you get a ticket...get caught too much and your insurance goes up ..maybe you lose your license. Do you stop speeding after getting caught once? Heck no... you buy a radar detector and act more careful.

No way did Bellichick stop doing something that made him millions... he's only going to be more careful about it. His ego is WAY too big to just stop and say...I'll just have to win the fair way now. It's much tougher to cheat in the SB when you are at a neutral field and the opponent has 2 weeks to prepare. But during the playoffs and regular season...pretty easy. NE's success in the 3rd quarter at home is pretty amazing really...almost too amazing.

RowHH
02-05-2012, 09:56 PM
I'll never forget sitting in Heinz Field during the AFC championship game at the end of the 2001 season and my cousin and I saying the same thing Hines said: It's as if they know the plays in advance.

Eff those cheaters. 0-2 since the commissioner destroyed the evidence. And when they did win, they were anything but gracious.

GMU Steeler
02-05-2012, 09:57 PM
I'll never forget sitting in Heinz Field during the AFC championship game at the end of the 2001 season and my cousin and I saying the same thing Hines said: It's as if they know the plays in advance.

Eff those cheaters. 0-2 since the commissioner destroyed the evidence. And when they did win, they were anything but gracious.

This is why I don't feel bad for the Pats at all. Plus they have the most obnoxious bandwagon fans in the game.

TRH
02-05-2012, 10:03 PM
terrible losers. Very ungracious after the loss, especially Belichek himself. Real sore losers.

Although that doesn't surprise me...i lived in New England in 2008-2010 and the people there are just nasty.....mean, backstabbing, rude, awful people. Not everybody, but a huge chunk of them. Certainly the worst people in the U.S.

tanda10506
02-06-2012, 02:55 AM
I dont think a win would have changed anything. Winning today didnt mean they were better than the Steelers in 01 or 04 or any other team that they played in the playoffs. Im sure they still cheat, just not as obvious and not as much. All a win today would have shown is that they were better than the Giants today, they would have lost in at least one of those championship games at Heinz if they weren't cheating and would have another loss if not for the on the spot invention of the tuck rule, winning 8 years later doesnt change anything.

4xSBChamps
02-06-2012, 04:27 AM
This is why I don't feel bad for the Pats at all. Plus they have the most obnoxious bandwagon fans in the game.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y272/Glensgages/football/Patriotfansest2002.jpg

BigRick
02-06-2012, 04:43 AM
[QUOTE=FanSince72;994425]Like the old saying goes, “If you're not cheating, you're not trying”

Bellichik is hardly the first coach to try to gain an edge on an opponent and I'm sure he won't be the last.
Guys my age probably remember George Allen posting security guards along the perimeter of his practice field to keep "others" from filming his plays.
Besides paranoia, the reason he did that is because other coaches were trying to steal his plays (and I'm pretty sure none of them were named Bellichik).

In baseball, stealing signs is almost a hallowed tradition along with spitballs and razor blades tucked into pitcher's baseball caps.

Is it right?

Probably not.

But it's hardly new and Bellichik certainly didn't invent it.
Some people see him as a cheater while others see him as an innovator but whatever he is, he's always trying to stay ahead of the curve.

I mean, how many coaches would think to have their team "practice" a Super Bowl halftime? :applaudit:[/Q
Sure everybody looks for an edge. But there is a lot of difference between a coach or player watching the opposing team during the game to try to pick up signals and someone video taping the coach giving signals. Belichick carried it to extremes.

FanSince72
02-06-2012, 08:38 AM
Sure everybody looks for an edge. But there is a lot of difference between a coach or player watching the opposing team during the game to try to pick up signals and someone video taping the coach giving signals. Belichick carried it to extremes.

Of course there is.

All I'm saying is that Belichick didn't invent cheating.
In fact, once a game was invented, cheating was probably the second thing that was invented.

I think with Belichick, it's the level of success, the arrogance and the smugness that bothers people and that's what makes HIS cheating somehow worse than a "simpler" form of cheating.
Put it this way, if Belichick was a warmer person and was someone who joked around with people and was always available for interviews or if he was noted for his charity or community affiliations -- would his cheating be seen the same way?

Probably not.

I think whatever he does to gain an edge is magnified by his personality.
And once again, that doesn't make it right but if he was simply more likeable, I think people wouldn't see him so much as a criminal.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-06-2012, 08:54 AM
Its just a nice feeling that some can always point to the fact that they never have won a super bowl without filming other teams signals.

Kind of makes you wonder if they get to the other 3 games without that edge. Maybe instead of being a dynasty like most think, they would have only ended up being looked upon like the Buffalo Bills of the 80's and 90's. or the Houston Oilers of the 70's.

Steelers Blitz
02-06-2012, 09:04 AM
The Pats won nothing in my eyes, caught out cheating after win 3 SB's, they should have been stripped of those titles. No-one except the media respects what they'v done because it's all tainted.


I loved what JH tweeted.

jjpro11
02-06-2012, 09:11 AM
i don't even think the videotaping signals was the biggest deal... where there's smoke, there's fire.. and there was plenty of smoke surrounding the Patriots during that time period. rumors of videotaping walkthroughs, bugging locker rooms, opposing teams' headsets always malfunctioning at Foxborough, etc. that video tape assistant got shut up really fast. we had dipshit Goodell handling the whole case. in what kind investigation does the investigator ask the accused party to turn over the evidence implicating them of a crime themselves, and then destroy it so the public and nobody can see. lol.

jiminpa
02-06-2012, 09:46 AM
i don't even think the videotaping signals was the biggest deal... where there's smoke, there's fire.. and there was plenty of smoke surrounding the Patriots during that time period. rumors of videotaping walkthroughs, bugging locker rooms, opposing teams' headsets always malfunctioning at Foxborough, etc. that video tape assistant got shut up really fast. we had dipshit Goodell handling the whole case. in what kind investigation does the investigator ask the accused party to turn over the evidence implicating them of a crime themselves, and then destroy it so the public and nobody can see. lol.Exactly! Add to that mid-game rules changes, and the NFL is stepping across the threshold of being pro-wrestling, and positioning the Cheatriots as "good guys", and the Steelers as "bad guys."

plenewken
02-06-2012, 09:48 AM
....................

Boomer
02-06-2012, 07:55 PM
Once a cheater, always a cheater. I hope the team and players are cursed from here on out.

60_MINUTES
02-06-2012, 08:08 PM
i don't even think the videotaping signals was the biggest deal... where there's smoke, there's fire.. and there was plenty of smoke surrounding the Patriots during that time period. rumors of videotaping walkthroughs, bugging locker rooms, opposing teams' headsets always malfunctioning at Foxborough, etc. that video tape assistant got shut up really fast. we had dipshit Goodell handling the whole case. in what kind investigation does the investigator ask the accused party to turn over the evidence implicating them of a crime themselves, and then destroy it so the public and nobody can see. lol.


BINGO... your spot on.. its common since guys... first off look at all the stuff that starting coming out.. different things they were doing like you just suggested.. those things were not made

But like I said its common since... think about it .... if all they did was taped signals and we already saw that when the story broke then what evidence was destroyed??? lol if all the evidence and all they did was taped signals and the whole viewing world saw that tape then why did you destroy it... its laughable guys... they did everything everyone suggested... the whole team is a fraud and a fluke and should be stripped of everything... to me Brady should be judged off of his post spygate record in which is his O - 2 in superbowls... the guy is not HOF quarterback... no more then Bonds is a HOF baseball player...; he is a cheat plain and simple

wera176
02-06-2012, 10:34 PM
I'll never forget sitting in Heinz Field during the AFC championship game at the end of the 2001 season and my cousin and I saying the same thing Hines said: It's as if they know the plays in advance.

Eff those cheaters. 0-2 since the commissioner destroyed the evidence. And when they did win, they were anything but gracious.

I wasn't there, but I remember that game like it happened yesterday. It seemed like every play the patsies were in the correct position to stop. I was actually impressed, frustrated but impressed. I thought Cowher (et al) were just schooled. I remember Hines tearfully stating exactly that, like they knew exactly what play was being called. Then the news broke and I was certain they'd be punished, the money that cost teams like Pittsburgh, etc, etc... Frinking' slap on the wrist would have hurt more.

I was glad they beat the Ravens though! ;) Wiiiiddde Leeeefffft!

Only way the Super Bowl would have worked out better is if our Steelers were there...

Oh well, we'll be back next year! :drink:

GMU Steeler
02-06-2012, 11:23 PM
It's just amusing to hear all the Pats fans scream Spygate's "not a big deal" and "every team did it." Yeah that's why they were stripped a draft pick and why the "Pats dynasty" hasn't won a SB since 2004. I've felt for a while that Brady and Belichick while they may be a good or even very good QB and coach, they are not the greats their supporters make them out ot be. Belichick's draft this year made no sense at all to me. Need pass rush help and secondary help? What does Bill do? He chooses Ryan Mallet and two running backs in an offense that is anything but run first. And as I like to point out the last time the Pats won the big game was when Ben was a rookie and crap I was still in high school then and that feels like forever ago.

Fire Arians
02-06-2012, 11:28 PM
0EU1O-hGxgg