PDA

View Full Version : Eli or Big Ben?


steelers33
02-05-2012, 09:28 PM
Honestly I'd take Eli. Just as clutch as Ben, and more methodical offensively.

Atlanta Dan
02-05-2012, 09:31 PM
Honestly I'd take Eli. Just as clutch as Ben, and more methodical offensively.

Consider the possibility the offensive coordinator and offensive line have something to do with that

Let's see which one wins three before that question can be answered

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7004/6828763277_30d5571710.jpg

kan_t
02-05-2012, 09:40 PM
Ben has better stats, Eli has two SB MVP awards. They're so close now I really don't know who's better. Bottom line is that you can't go wrong with either one.

Edman
02-05-2012, 09:41 PM
Take away the Offensive coordinator ineptitude, Eli is still better than Ben. There were many situations in this game where I envisioned Ben brainfarting and screwing up. Also, Eli has yet to shit the bed in the Super Bowl.

Eli has been put in a good offensive system and he has run with it. Ben was put in a shitty offensive system and he embraces and defends it when he saw it first hand how screwed up it was. No sense of real accountability at all.

GMU Steeler
02-05-2012, 09:42 PM
They're close. Eli I have to say as much as I hated his draft day stunt is a guy I'm starting to like. He's clutch as they come.

Darkstorm05
02-05-2012, 09:47 PM
They're close. Eli I have to say as much as I hated his draft day stunt is a guy I'm starting to like. He's clutch as they come.

I would take Ben, with whoever was sending in Eli's plays as our OC. Establishing the run then killing the Pats with play action and occasional deep balls was exactly what we should be doing, IMO. Sprinkle in some of the Patriots Tight End short passes, and all would be well in Pittsburgh.

StainlessStill
02-05-2012, 09:48 PM
Eli entered the elite. That said, give me NOBODY else than Roethlisberger. I'm taking Ben ALL DAY LONG. I've seen, with my own eyes, the grittiest and toughest son of a bitch to play the QB position. Roethlisberger 100 times out of 100.

GMU Steeler
02-05-2012, 09:50 PM
I would take Ben, with whoever was sending in Eli's plays as our OC. Establishing the run then killing the Pats with play action and occasional deep balls was exactly what we should be doing, IMO. Sprinkle in some of the Patriots Tight End short passes, and all would be well in Pittsburgh.

Yeah I probably would too. I really hope we look at the Giants QB coach.

TRH
02-05-2012, 09:51 PM
Are you kidding me??

Here we go with these kind of posts................Sheez.

TRH
02-05-2012, 09:52 PM
Take away the Offensive coordinator ineptitude, Eli is still better than Ben. There were many situations in this game where I envisioned Ben brainfarting and screwing up. Also, Eli has yet to shit the bed in the Super Bowl.

Eli has been put in a good offensive system and he has run with it. Ben was put in a shitty offensive system and he embraces and defends it when he saw it first hand how screwed up it was. No sense of real accountability at all.



yeah, our F-in defense "sh*t the bed" in the last Super Bowl is the way i remembered it.....

TRH
02-05-2012, 09:52 PM
Eli entered the elite. That said, give me NOBODY else than Roethlisberger. I'm taking Ben ALL DAY LONG. I've seen, with my own eyes, the grittiest and toughest son of a bitch to play the QB position. Roethlisberger 100 times out of 100.

Agreed. 2 great QB's...but i'm happy with the one we have.

jaygorius
02-05-2012, 09:53 PM
I still may take Ben but it is pretty close. I read someone's comment earlier and they said Eli has seemed to progress over the years where as recently Ben has seemed to take a step back a little. I agree with this and I am hoping it was mostly due to the offensive system and that a new OC will help. However, I still think that Ben can get back to where he was and if he does I'd take him over Eli.

BLACK_AND_YELLOW
02-05-2012, 09:53 PM
Oh its this thread again SMH

i would take Big Ben anyday give him a line and a better O-coordinator he would be doing MAYBE just as good as Tom Brady...it only takes three seconds for Ben to get hit cmon stop being stupid.

P.S People who make threads like this dont know crap about football.

kan_t
02-05-2012, 09:53 PM
Are you kidding me??

Here we go with these kind of posts................Sheez.
It's not like we're comparing Ben to Flacco. We're compare him to a 2-time SB MVP.

tanda10506
02-05-2012, 10:16 PM
It's not like we're comparing Ben to Flacco. We're compare him to a 2-time SB MVP.

I know, but everytime someone has a good performance or wins something there are people saying "Is he better than Ben?". Eli is a worthy comparison, it's just getting old. Anyway, I would take Ben, they are both clutch and both really good, but only one of them would be good behind our O line and Arians atrocious play calling.

GMU Steeler
02-05-2012, 10:17 PM
I know, but everytime someone has a good performance or wins something there are people saying "Is he better than Ben?". Eli is a worthy comparison, it's just getting old. Anyway, I would take Ben, they are both clutch and both really good, but only one of them would be good behind our O line and Arians atrocious play calling.

I think this is why I take Ben too. He's good at making something out of nothing and he's tough as nails.

Cherinko
02-05-2012, 10:19 PM
Ben's complete body of work is still better than Eli's.

Lower INT%, higher TD%, better completion rating, more yards per game, much higher quarterback rating..


Right now, though? Tough choice..can't go wrong with either of them. I agree that Eli's stepped up big time whereas Ben has pretty much plateaued.

ETL
02-05-2012, 10:24 PM
I would take Eli right now because he doesn't have the HUMONGOUS ego that Ben has. I appreciate what Ben has done for us and he is a top 5 QB in this league but he needs to play smarter and not keep on looking for the 70 yard TD passes and in the process get sacked and fumble.

BigRick
02-05-2012, 10:25 PM
Eli entered the elite. That said, give me NOBODY else than Roethlisberger. I'm taking Ben ALL DAY LONG. I've seen, with my own eyes, the grittiest and toughest son of a bitch to play the QB position. Roethlisberger 100 times out of 100.

Given the choice I'd take Ben. He's one of the few QBs I've seen lately that could have played in the era before all the rule changes.:tt03:

FanSince72
02-05-2012, 10:37 PM
Agreed. 2 great QB's...but i'm happy with the one we have.


Ditto!

NoFieldFive
02-05-2012, 10:37 PM
Eli got knocked around a lot in the 49er's game and got back up every play.....6 sacks and many other big hits on him.

despite the huge pressure he did not make any stupid throws and no sack fumbles.

GMU Steeler
02-05-2012, 10:38 PM
I'd probably take Ben too. Both guys have what I look for in a QB though. Toughness, clutchness, and a never give up attitude.

steeltheone
02-05-2012, 10:57 PM
Lets not forget the Giants are a better team than we are at this point. Is what it is.

Sixburgher
02-05-2012, 11:25 PM
Lets not forget the Giants are a better team than we are at this point. Is what it is.

9-7 > 12-4

Doesn't compute. Sorry. More fortunate at the end of this season, most definitely.

JCPsteelers
02-05-2012, 11:33 PM
I think Ben has been better in regular season but eli more clutch in playoffs.


I think its pretty even.

DanRooney
02-06-2012, 12:49 AM
Ben has regressed as a quarterback and he's not as intelligent on or off field as Eli. As of right now, it's the other QB.

OX1947
02-06-2012, 12:53 AM
Maybe next year we can be fortunate to see the two battle for the best of the 2004 QB class. Should have happen this year.

Millers the sh!t
02-06-2012, 12:54 AM
yeah, our F-in defense "sh*t the bed" in the last Super Bowl is the way i remembered it.....

Why? Cause they kept us in the game with multiple offensive turnovers???

PhantomJB93
02-06-2012, 12:56 AM
I've always been of the opinion that Eli is underrated and has a lot of credit taken away from him because he's not as good as Peyton. But, at the same time, I think the fact needs to be considered that even as early as midway through this season, Eli was hardly considered a "great" QB, even by me, who thought he wasn't given enough credit. Of course, this has changed over the past month or so.

Winning 2 Super Bowls is nothing to scoff at. Eli is elite now. But, Ben is still better. Eli also has far better (at least, more diverse and consistent) weapons at his disposal as well as a respectable offensive line. I don't know where the consistency thing came from, Ben is hardly "consistent" but Eli has been one of the most up-and-down QBs in the NFL the past few years, 2011-12 included, I'd definitely say Ben has been the "more" consistent of the two, even if not by much.

If Eli wins another title before Ben, my opinion might change. But for now I'd say:

1. Drew Brees
2. Aaron Rodgers
3. Tom Brady
4. Peyton Manning
5. Ben Roethlisberger
6. Eli Manning
7. Everybody Else.

Millers the sh!t
02-06-2012, 12:58 AM
9-7 > 12-4

Doesn't compute. Sorry. More fortunate at the end of this season, most definitely.

12-4 < 9-7 + X

X = superbowl championship...

They weren't "fortunate" they smashed the best teams in the league this year. They earned that win bro...

tony hipchest
02-06-2012, 01:06 AM
lol @ benedict arnolds.

Sixburgher
02-06-2012, 01:11 AM
12-4 < 9-7 + X

X = superbowl championship...

They weren't "fortunate" they smashed the best teams in the league this year. They earned that win bro...

Being able to win a division outright with a 9-7 record is somewhat fortunate in my book. They were pretty much left for dead in mid-December when they were sitting at 7-7 and a game behind the Cowboys. They got hot at the right time. Good for them. But don't make it more than what it is.

tony hipchest
02-06-2012, 01:17 AM
whos the giants back up qb?

cause thats who you woulda seen NOT making the playoffs and leading the giants to a 7-9 record had eli suffered the EXACT same injury ben had.

i'll take ben (and his THREE sb appearances) anyday.

lol @ benedict arnolds. (same people woulda been saying eli sucks just like people say peyton sucks, had he lost today)

tanda10506
02-06-2012, 01:43 AM
whos the giants back up qb?

cause thats who you woulda seen NOT making the playoffs and leading the giants to a 7-9 record had eli suffered the EXACT same injury ben had.

i'll take ben (and his THREE sb appearances) anyday.

lol @ benedict arnolds. (same people woulda been saying eli sucks just like people say peyton sucks, had he lost today)

This^

Bayz101
02-06-2012, 03:59 AM
Oh @#!%

These threads man...

:banging:

Bayz101
02-06-2012, 04:02 AM
The Giants took what the Patriots gave them, ALL DAY LONG. They capitalized of mistakes, and punched it in when needed. They put up just enough points to squeeze by. As far as i'm concerned, our quarterback engineered a Super Bowl game winning drive in his career. Our team had to drive that ball the length of the field with time ticking by to win the Super Bowl in '08, and they did.

Now you can look at Eli's game winning drive, but to be honest, that lucky shit shouldn't have caught that ball. C'mon on the helmet?

Rick5895
02-06-2012, 05:07 AM
They are 2 different QB's. Ben is the right QB for the Steelers and he is the toughest S.O.B. playing QB in the league. The only reason we weren't beating the giants last night is the injuries finally caught up with us.
Nope, Give me Ben any day of the week and especially on Sundays!!!!!!!!!!!

Steelers_all_day_43
02-06-2012, 05:32 AM
Crazy how quick some fans question our qb whenever they get a chance to.

Bayz101
02-06-2012, 05:35 AM
Crazy how some fans are.

Fixed.

plenewken
02-06-2012, 05:40 AM
Ben has regressed as a quarterback and he's not as intelligent on or off field as Eli. As of right now, it's the other QB.

I completely agree with you. Plus Ben has yet to shine in a SB, I mean, play a mistake free game. Compare Ben's numbers vs. Eli's numbers in the 2 Superbowl each won and you'll see the difference.
Ben might be the toughest SOB but I'll take less garbage in his game, like sacks, INTs and fumbles and I'll take better decisions any day.
Eli wasn't #1 draft in Ben's class for nothing. He's a better QB, period, and I have no problem admitting it.
Doesn't mean I want Ben gone.

Bayz101
02-06-2012, 05:46 AM
Jesus Christ. Tom Brady went 27-41 and threw a pick. Manning may have went without a blemish in this one, but Brady sure as hell didn't. He turned the ball over and cost his team two points in a game that was decided by a mere four. Ben Roethlisberger played better than Brady in his second super bowl, going 21-30 with a TD and a INT. Brady went 27-41 with the same, plus a safety. Now, are you saying you'd take Brady over Manning as well?

Ricco Suavez
02-06-2012, 06:20 AM
I completely agree with you. Plus Ben has yet to shine in a SB, I mean, play a mistake free game. Compare Ben's numbers vs. Eli's numbers in the 2 Superbowl each won and you'll see the difference.
Ben might be the toughest SOB but I'll take less garbage in his game, like sacks, INTs and fumbles and I'll take better decisions any day.
Eli wasn't #1 draft in Ben's class for nothing. He's a better QB, period, and I have no problem admitting it.
Doesn't mean I want Ben gone.

Eli's first MVP numbers are no better than Ben's second Super Bowl. Funny how everyone who doubts Ben's merit bring up his dependency on the defense but everyone who jumps on the Eli wagon neglects to point out that both of their Super Bowls came after great defensive efforts in the playoffs. This years run by the Giants reflect some of the best defense I have seen. The Giants did not exactly light up the scoreboard with the Eli led offense.

Any fan of football could see Eli had a better line to protect him up front. I also am in the opinion that he has a better receiving corp although most on here will disagree, but honestly other than Brown right now who is clutch, who steps ups. Ward has lost a step and a half, and Wallace has been a no show the second half. Miller is as good as any TE the Giants have but Cruze, Nicks, and M'Ham are a complete receiving corp.

I will give props to Eli for the 49er game. He took a beating and hung in there, something I did not think he could do, something Brady cannot do. I just think he had a very good year even before the defense got healthy and they were 7-7, defense got healthy and they closed the season with a great run. As the QB he receives too much credit and when they lose he receives too much blame. Him and Ben are much alike in the that.

Bayz101
02-06-2012, 06:27 AM
I'd hand Pierre-Paul the MVP trophy in a second. He batted down two Tom Brady passes, and showed GREAT effort all game long.

Bayz101
02-06-2012, 06:29 AM
A 21 point game isn't impressive, but holding Brady and the Patriot offense to a mere 17 is. That's why the defensive side of the ball one the game, not Eli. Eli did what he had to do, and took what the Pat's gave him. Make no mistake about it, this year was another defensive championship.

plenewken
02-06-2012, 06:51 AM
Eli's first MVP numbers are no better than Ben's second Super Bowl. Funny how everyone who doubts Ben's merit bring up his dependency on the defense but everyone who jumps on the Eli wagon neglects to point out that both of their Super Bowls came after great defensive efforts in the playoffs. This years run by the Giants reflect some of the best defense I have seen. The Giants did not exactly light up the scoreboard with the Eli led offense.


Dude,
Ben still holds the record for the worst QB rating in a SB with 22.6, during his 1st SB.. Talk about putrid play. Let's say that the Steelers won that one despite him.
Against the Cardinals he had a 93.2 rating which was much better but still not MVP performance.
Against the Packers, his rating was 77.4, which was a piss poor performance.

It's fair to say that Ben hasn't shined in any of the 3 SB he played and that's why I don't consider him "Elite".

Bayz101
02-06-2012, 07:29 AM
Eli is very good, but then again, so is their OC
anyway, careful what you say about Ben here, 'cause "Bayz" , our in-house super ben Mod, will go all squiggly about it.
Ha ha.

Is it that, or is it just that you despise him? I'm not a Ben fan, i'm a Steelers fan. At times I think you have something against him. Did he hurt you, little buddy? :chuckle:

Cheer up man, it'll be okay. Steer clear of the club bathroom's :rofl:

When something is said about Ben, or our offense in general, your right there ready to lash out with all of your brains will. Not very much, but it's still annoying enough :banging:

Trust me, i'm not the only one that thinks this about you. I may be speaking for half of the board :noidea:

I like defense as much as the next guy, but I don't hate Ben as much as you. He's pissed me off, but I don't have anything against him, unlike someone I know :wave:

steeltheone
02-06-2012, 08:24 AM
Dude,
Ben still holds the record for the worst QB rating in a SB with 22.6, during his 1st SB.. Talk about putrid play. Let's say that the Steelers won that one despite him.
Against the Cardinals he had a 93.2 rating which was much better but still not MVP performance.
Against the Packers, his rating was 77.4, which was a piss poor performance.

It's fair to say that Ben hasn't shined in any of the 3 SB he played and that's why I don't consider him "Elite". What makes BR7 elite is the quality of the teams he has taken to the SB. That could be said about Brady this year too. The Pats have many holes and are not a great team, but he got them there.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-06-2012, 08:49 AM
Dude,
Ben still holds the record for the worst QB rating in a SB with 22.6, during his 1st SB.. Talk about putrid play. Let's say that the Steelers won that one despite him.
Against the Cardinals he had a 93.2 rating which was much better but still not MVP performance.
Against the Packers, his rating was 77.4, which was a piss poor performance.

It's fair to say that Ben hasn't shined in any of the 3 SB he played and that's why I don't consider him "Elite".

Very true that Ben has not lit up any of the SB games that he has been in, except for Q4 of the Arizona game.

Always said that Eli is probably a better pocket passer and traditional QB at reading defenses, making the tough throws and throwing the ball away when necessary. Ben is a different QB, we all know that.

I think 2 super bowl rings and 2 Super Bowl MVP trophies puts Eli ahead of Ben, if you are to take an unbiased look at it.

plenewken
02-06-2012, 08:53 AM
What makes BR7 elite is the quality of the teams he has taken to the SB. That could be said about Brady this year too. The Pats have many holes and are not a great team, but he got them there.

I won't consider Ben elite unless he plays consistently better and unless he delivers in a SB, something he hasn't done so far. He's not in my top 5 at this point, not by a long shot.
I am not seeing $102M worth of production from Ben, sorry.

Atlanta Dan
02-06-2012, 08:59 AM
Good read in New York Times this morning

Manning vs. Roethlisberger for Hall of Fame

Whether you believe Eli Manning’s overall career merits Hall of Fame consideration doesn’t matter as much anymore.

A second Super Bowl victory gives him a special credential that gets his foot in the door. That he won a second Super Bowl M.V.P. award only adds to his case.

Ben Roethlisberger, who has also won two Super Bowls and who was in Manning’s draft class, played poorly in his first Super Bowl victory. You could say that Pittsburgh won despite him. But Roethlisberger has also appeared in three Super Bowls, one more than Manning. You can go round and round with the numbers and the achievements....

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/06/manning-vs-roethlisberger-for-hall-of-fame/

In other words they are both pretty good:thumbsup:

plenewken
02-06-2012, 09:02 AM
Very true that Ben has not lit up any of the SB games that he has been in, except for Q4 of the Arizona game.
.

Yep. It means he played well in 1 quarter out of 12. Hardly an elite QB performance. We'll see how he reacts next season. If he doesn't manage to put more points on the board with the offense he has, you're gonna hear a lot more boos at Heinz Field, guaranteed.

Bayz101
02-06-2012, 09:06 AM
Dude,
Ben still holds the record for the worst QB rating in a SB with 22.6, during his 1st SB.. Talk about putrid play. Let's say that the Steelers won that one despite him.
Against the Cardinals he had a 93.2 rating which was much better but still not MVP performance.
Against the Packers, his rating was 77.4, which was a piss poor performance.

It's fair to say that Ben hasn't shined in any of the 3 SB he played and that's why I don't consider him "Elite".

The Steelers just needed a QB to get them to the Super Bowl, and they took over from there. Take a look back at what Ben did to get them there, rather than what he did once he made it. Hell, if it wasn't for Ben's tackle---well, you know the story :hatsoff:

jiminpa
02-06-2012, 09:22 AM
I admire that Ben is in the top 3 toughest Steelers QBs since I started watching football in the mid seventies. I don't have to dicuss Bradshaw, but don't forget that the first defender in on NOD was going down, and he always took out someone on the end around reverses. I greatly admire how Ben drops the crutches and jumps out on the field, but some of you are wearing Ben colored homer glasses. He can scramble, and he can chuck the rock downfield, but what other than passing yards, (and what QB won't have those numbers throwing 20 bombs a game), makes anyone think he is even above average? I agree that he has the ability to be very good, but has resisted any attempt to put him in a position to develop.

Someon already commented that he lobbied to keep this horrible offensive system, but I think he was an influence it's implimentation in the first place. And I agree that he is not very smart on or off the field. He needs a boss, not a buddy.

At this point in his career, he will probably never be what he could have been as a QB, but he can be good enough, under the right circumstances.

My only explanation for so many calling the QB of such a talented and unproductive offense "elite" is just plain homerism.

plenewken
02-06-2012, 09:30 AM
The Steelers just needed a QB to get them to the Super Bowl, and they took over from there. Take a look back at what Ben did to get them there, rather than what he did once he made it. Hell, if it wasn't for Ben's tackle---well, you know the story :hatsoff:

Yes, I know this story and he definitely saved our @ss (and his) from a loss to the Colts but I look at the whole career, not a few carefully selected moments. Elite requires much more efficiency and consistency, something he has to work on to achieve this status.
First, he has to get back in the top 5 next year, cause he's not there now.

Sixburgher
02-06-2012, 09:45 AM
Yes, I know this story and he definitely saved our @ss (and his) from a loss to the Colts but I look at the whole career, not a few carefully selected moments. Elite requires much more efficiency and consistency, something he has to work on to achieve this status.
First, he has to get back in the top 5 next year, cause he's not there now.

Over their respective careers, Ben has a higher TD per attempt ratio, a lower INT per attempt ratio, a higher YPA, and a substantially higher completion percentage than Eli Manning, yet in your mind, Manning is the better QB. Whatever.

I also say that if the Patriots win that game last night, this idiotic thread wouldn't have even been started.

kan_t
02-06-2012, 09:47 AM
Yes, I know this story and he definitely saved our @ss (and his) from a loss to the Colts but I look at the whole career, not a few carefully selected moments. Elite requires much more efficiency and consistency, something he has to work on to achieve this status.
First, he has to get back in the top 5 next year, cause he's not there now.

I think you're selling him a bit short. I won't rank another Manning until he has played another game. Ben right now sits at No.4/5 comfortably.

EbonySteel86
02-06-2012, 09:59 AM
I would rank them about equal its just Eli OC playcalling is waaaaaaaaay better than what we've had lately. Hopefully that'll change.

Steelerfreak58
02-06-2012, 10:10 AM
Ben.

Eli is scrappy and tough and I would take him if Ben wasn't our boy but he is so there is no comparison.

vasteeler
02-06-2012, 10:17 AM
I won't consider Ben elite unless he plays consistently better and unless he delivers in a SB, something he hasn't done so far. He's not in my top 5 at this point, not by a long shot.
I am not seeing $102M worth of production from Ben, sorry.

...so the drive to end superbowl 43 means nothing?:coffee:

Bayz101
02-06-2012, 10:19 AM
...so the drive to end superbowl 43 means nothing?:coffee:

:applaudit:

plenewken
02-06-2012, 10:23 AM
...so the drive to end superbowl 43 means nothing?:coffee:

It's not nothing but looking at the whole game, it wasn't worth MVP status. Warner had better numbers than him.

Bayz101
02-06-2012, 10:32 AM
It's not nothing but looking at the whole game, it wasn't worth MVP status. Warner had better numbers than him that day.

Statistics? Is that really the base of your argument? Who cares what Warners numbers we're, did he win the Super Bowl? Also, Warner threw the ball 13 more times than Ben.

Anyone can throw the ball 35 times and put up big passing numbers, but you don't win in just one aspect. That's what this league is pushing for, but it won't happen.

You can bring up statistics, but it's the success that matters, and nothing else.

plenewken
02-06-2012, 10:45 AM
Statistics? Is that really the base of your argument? Who cares what Warners numbers we're, did he win the Super Bowl? Also, Warner threw the ball 13 more times than Ben.

Anyone can throw the ball 35 times and put up big passing numbers, but you don't win in just one aspect. That's what this league is pushing for, but it won't happen.

You can bring up statistics, but it's the success that matters, and nothing else.

Listen, you can idolize Ben as much as you want, it's your right. My point is in none of the 3 SBs Ben played, he had a dominant and convincing performance. This is what differentiate elite vs very good in my book.

Edman
02-06-2012, 10:48 AM
I think it's probably more of a case of "What have you done for me lately"?

Eli hammered the Packers in Lambeau and knocked off New England in XLVI. He played well in all three games.

Ben couldn't manage a single touchdown in a half against the Broncos and lost to a total joke of a QB. Before that, he was outplayed by Mark Sanchez in the AFC Title game (Getting Shutout in a half), then the Packers ate his lunch.

SoCalFan
02-06-2012, 10:50 AM
Eli was playing against a sub par D! I think if Ben had a decent O-line like Eli has always had, he would have 3 rings himself!!!

Bayz101
02-06-2012, 10:57 AM
Listen, you can idolize Ben as much as you want, it's your right. My point is in none of the 3 SBs Ben played, he had a dominant and convincing performance. This is what differentiate elite vs very good in my book.

I guess 21-30 for 256 yards and a touchdown just seems convincing to me, especially when you add the fact he engineered a game-winning drive :noidea:

He hasn't had an elite, HOF super bowl performance by any means, but he's certainly proved he can get it done on the biggest of all stages.

Manning threw the ball ten more times, and still managed only one touchdown and just 40 more yards against a mediocre defense, so I think idolizing Manning at this point is really premature.

Fire Arians
02-06-2012, 10:58 AM
ben

kan_t
02-06-2012, 11:04 AM
Actually it's stats which make Ben a better QB than Eli. Eli's main argument is (or should be) his 2 SB MVP awards. You need to play well to get to SB. Ben himself is no choker. But I think shining in the biggest stage still counts something, which make Eli very close to or better than Ben (depends on how you weigh those factors). I think they are pretty much equal at this stage. I still take Ben because I'm more of a stats guy. Bottom line is that I think no one should complain if either one is the Steelers QB.

Btw, here is some funny stats:

4th quarter comebacks
Ben: 20
Eli: 21

Game-winning drives
Ben: 26
Eli: 25

plenewken
02-06-2012, 11:09 AM
Eli was playing against a sub par D! I think if Ben had a decent O-line like Eli has always had, he would have 3 rings himself!!!

Ben has a decent OL, not great but decent. Certainly as decent as Green Bay's last year, yet Rodgers could produce more than Ben behind it.
You can't blame last year's SB loss on the OL, sorry. Rodgers was sacked 3 times, vs 1 time for Ben.
On the other hand, 2TD-2INT for Ben vs 3TD-0INT for Rodgers, that's the difference between W and L.

Bayz101
02-06-2012, 11:10 AM
Actually it's stats which make Ben a better QB than Eli. Eli's main argument is (or should be) his 2 SB MVP awards. You need to play well to get to SB. Ben himself is no choker. But I think shining in the biggest stage still counts something, which make Eli very close to or better than Ben (depends on how you weigh those factors). I think they are pretty much equal at this stage. I still take Ben because I'm more of a stats guy. Bottom line is that I think no one should complain if either one is the Steelers QB.

Btw, here is some funny stats:

4th quarter comebacks
Ben: 20
Eli: 21

Game-winning drives
Ben: 26
Eli: 25

Ben hasn't has a fourth quarter comeback in a while, it was almost a regular thing a few years ago. The thing is, your team shouldn't be in a position to have to comeback from behind. I'm not sure, as a QB, i'd be happy with a stat like that. I'd want my team to always be in a good position to win the game.

Ben and Eli are very close, and in my opinion, i'd keep Ben because of his toughness and strength. If he didn't have that, it'd be up in the air.

kan_t
02-06-2012, 11:22 AM
Ben hasn't has a fourth quarter comeback in a while, it was almost a regular thing a few years ago. The thing is, your team shouldn't be in a position to have to comeback from behind. I'm not sure, as a QB, i'd be happy with a stat like that. I'd want my team to always be in a good position to win the game.

Ben and Eli are very close, and in my opinion, i'd keep Ben because of his toughness and strength. If he didn't have that, it'd be up in the air.
I post that stats because lots of people or media think that Manning is so money in 4th quarter. The fact is that Ben has those comeback wins as many as Eli. I take Ben not because of his toughness. Eli himself is pretty tough and he is no Brady either. I take Ben because of his consistency. Eli has just arrived to the elite status. Ben has already been there for a while. And Ben is younger.

I don't weigh SB MVP as much as some people. But I can understand why some people pick Eli, especially if you put off-field issue into consideration.

plenewken
02-06-2012, 11:29 AM
Ben hasn't has a fourth quarter comeback in a while, it was almost a regular thing a few years ago. The thing is, your team shouldn't be in a position to have to comeback from behind. I'm not sure, as a QB, i'd be happy with a stat like that. I'd want my team to always be in a good position to win the game.

Ben and Eli are very close, and in my opinion, i'd keep Ben because of his toughness and strength. If he didn't have that, it'd be up in the air.

See, I agree with you. We wouldn't need comebacks if we were able to put the opponent away as we should.
More often than none over the last 2 seasons, I've been tempted to turn the TV off after watching the piss poor performance of our offense in the first half and Ben was one of the main reasons for it. Ooops, let me correct that, Arians was the #1 reason, Ben was #2 and the OL was #3. I put OL in #3 because both Arians and Ben KNEW who they had in front, yet none of them adjusted the strategy and execution.

As for Ben's toughness and strength, I give him that, but to me, that's not worth $102M. For that amount of $$$, I'd prefer accuracy, mobility and fast decisions.
To each his own.

So let me repeat what I wrote earlier and then I'm done. Now that Arians is gone, Ben numbers better be significantly better next season otherwise, he's gonna hear a lot of boos at Heinz Field.

lardlad
02-06-2012, 11:31 AM
I still take Ben. Eli has gone through some real crappy stretches of play that I am not sure Ben has. But you can't argue Eli has been better in the Super Bowl.

One thing I'd like to add about Ben's toughness is he has to be. The way he plays, he has to be tough. It's hard to imagine what each qb would do on either team, but I bet Eli would make our OL look at least a little better because I think he reads the defense better. I think the Giants have some good receivers but imagine Eli throwing to ours?

We see Ben play every week and I think we focus too much on the negativity, a successful qb from another team looks exciting to a lot of people. I feel though that you'll trade one thing for another. And despite what I said about Ben's toughness, it is one of the reasons I'd keep him. I just appreciate that type of play more. And like I said, other than the big game Ben had been way more consistent.

jiminpa
02-06-2012, 11:43 AM
If physical toughness was the most important trait for a QB, Dan Pastorini would have been the all-time greatest QB to ever take a snap, and Joe Montana is pretty average. There's a little more to the position.

pete74
02-06-2012, 11:53 AM
i dont really care. i would take Rodgers over them all but thats pointless because Ben is our QB. he's the guy leading this team and even if i would rather have someone different its not going to happen so i will support who we have. im definatly not the biggest Ben fan in the world but he is our QB and i support and love the team not any single player

ebsteelers
02-06-2012, 02:42 PM
bens first super bowl was his second year in the league compared to elis 4th.

ben played in what 4 championship games already.


super bowl mvp is junk ben easily could of been mvp of the second one. and same thing with comebacks well you wouldnt need to come back if you played well early



how the heck did justin tuck not get mvp in either super bowl 42 or 46.. the dude is a monster.

should of got it at least once if not both times..



if anybody besides ben played behind this o-line they would be dead. eli isnt mobility..



flip a coin.. landed steelers i'll take my chances with ben

Bayz101
02-06-2012, 02:45 PM
I think the Giants punter should've one MVP. He landed that thing perfectly several times.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-06-2012, 03:25 PM
Yep. It means he played well in 1 quarter out of 12. Hardly an elite QB performance. We'll see how he reacts next season. If he doesn't manage to put more points on the board with the offense he has, you're gonna hear a lot more boos at Heinz Field, guaranteed.

I think to get to 3 Super Bowls and win 2 as a QB puts you in a certain class. Manning is more of a classic pocket QB like Roger Staubach, where Ben is a cowboy more like Ken Stabler.

Both good QB's but I think Eli has done more up to this point. Still happy that Ben is our QB and would like to see what a decent run game can do to help out his game.

stb_steeler
02-06-2012, 03:28 PM
Are you kidding me??

Here we go with these kind of posts................Sheez.

No kidding...they just keep coming dont they? :doh:

finesward
02-06-2012, 03:30 PM
yeah, our F-in defense "sh*t the bed" in the last Super Bowl is the way i remembered it.....

It's ok, your not the only one to remember that super bowl incorrectly

Ricco Suavez
02-06-2012, 04:00 PM
Ben has a decent OL, not great but decent. Certainly as decent as Green Bay's last year, yet Rodgers could produce more than Ben behind it.
You can't blame last year's SB loss on the OL, sorry. Rodgers was sacked 3 times, vs 1 time for Ben.
On the other hand, 2TD-2INT for Ben vs 3TD-0INT for Rodgers, that's the difference between W and L.

Dude now you are delusional, the year the Steelers beat the Cards the Steeler Offensive e line was ranked WORST in the league, not near the bottom but the worst. Remember Ben's line after winning "whos laughing now O-Line"

Funny how everyone points to points scored by our team but overlook the Giants in the two Superbowls Manning played in. What 19 points last night plus 2 point safety and 17 last time, both against bottom tier defenses. While the defense held the high scoring Patriots both times to 17 or less. Seems like Manning's defense has more to do with their teams Superbowl wins than he does.

As far as MVP voting it was a no brainer it would be either Brady or Manning, the only suprise was it was not Co-MVPs.:rofl:

Ricco Suavez
02-06-2012, 04:07 PM
It's ok, your not the only one to remember that super bowl incorrectly

Man Steeler defense is First and foremost, always has and always will. But if we are going to take to task every time our QB is not the best or our offense is struggling we got to be honest when the "D' plays bad. The defense gave up two fourth quarter scores even made that game in doubt. And this years defense played awful against Tebow. Not going to beat the horse any more dead just stating a fact about those two games. The defense does play bad at times just like our QB, but they are still my team.

plenewken
02-06-2012, 04:09 PM
Dude now you are delusional, the year the Steelers beat the Cards the Steeler Offensive e line was ranked WORST in the league, not near the bottom but the worst. Remember Ben's line after winning "whos laughing now O-Line"

Funny how everyone points to points scored by our team but overlook the Giants in the two Superbowls Manning played in. What 19 points last night plus 2 point safety and 17 last time, both against bottom tier defenses. While the defense held the high scoring Patriots both times to 17 or less. Seems like Manning's defense has more to do with their teams Superbowl wins than he does.

As far as MVP voting it was a no brainer it would be either Brady or Manning, the only suprise was it was not Co-MVPs.:rofl:

Where am I delusional? I stated facts. Ben was sacked once in BS 45, Rodgers was sack 3 times so obviously Ben had decent protection from his line.
If I'm not mistaken, Ben got a C- rating in SB 45. 2TD/2INT doesn't cut it, sorry.

Ricco Suavez
02-06-2012, 04:24 PM
Where am I delusional? I stated facts. Ben was sacked once in BS 45, Rodgers was sack 3 times so obviously Ben had decent protection from his line.
If I'm not mistaken, Ben got a C- rating in SB 45. 2TD/2INT doesn't cut it, sorry.

Did you even watch the game? Bens numbers 21-30 256 yds 1TD 1INT 2 sacks. Just because he did not take a lot of sacks did not mean he had great protection. He did have the WORST rated line in the league for that year and it has not been much better since.

BTW Eli's MVP numbers first time 19-34 255yds 2-1 and last night 30-40 296 yds 1-0 both decent numbers but not WORLD beating numbers like you believe. Both against NE. like I said NY's defense had more to do with those two wins than the offense led by Eli.

Ricco Suavez
02-06-2012, 04:37 PM
Did you even watch the game? Bens numbers 21-30 256 yds 1TD 1INT 2 sacks. Just because he did not take a lot of sacks did not mean he had great protection. He did have the WORST rated line in the league for that year and it has not been much better since.

BTW Eli's MVP numbers first time 19-34 255yds 2-1 and last night 30-40 296 yds 1-0 both decent numbers but not WORLD beating numbers like you believe. Both against NE. like I said NY's defense had more to do with those two wins than the offense led by Eli.

My bad thought we were on the Superbowl against the Cards. True Ben played poorly against the Packers, yet still had a chance to pull out a win due to the offense getting it going late in game. Mendys fumble came at a very bad junction of the game when we had a chance to take the lead and the defense had stopped them a couple times. BTW that may have been the only times they stopped Rodgers all night.

BengalDestroyer
02-06-2012, 05:17 PM
Consider the possibility the offensive coordinator and offensive line have something to do with that

Let's see which one wins three before that question can be answered

yeah, seriously. I'd take Ben any day:tt04:

Men of Steel
02-06-2012, 05:53 PM
Take away the Offensive coordinator ineptitude, Eli is still better than Ben. There were many situations in this game where I envisioned Ben brainfarting and screwing up. Also, Eli has yet to shit the bed in the Super Bowl.

Eli has been put in a good offensive system and he has run with it. Ben was put in a shitty offensive system and he embraces and defends it when he saw it first hand how screwed up it was. No sense of real accountability at all.

best explination ^^

MasterOfPuppets
02-06-2012, 06:00 PM
Are you kidding me??

Here we go with these kind of posts................Sheez.
this is the old "what have you done lately " thread. if the steelers win the SB next year , he'll go back to hugging ben's nuts.

60_MINUTES
02-06-2012, 07:42 PM
I tell you what this would make for a great debate around the water coooler or bar stool... nice post....

Im a homer man... I really am and I know it.. I usually never give much credit to other players even when they derserve it but in this case I got to say I have them pretty even... BEN makes more big plays etc... but Eli is ice... he may be more clutch then anyone in the game now...

this being said I agree with whoever brought up coaching... you give BEN someone other the BA for the past 7 years and BEN may just be top QB in league... IMO.. if ben had learned a sheme from someone like a john Gruden or sean peyton then along with BENs play making and size we may be looking at something never seen before... as it turns out BEN with just his raw talent alone and school yard play has become great on his own

Atlanta Dan
02-06-2012, 07:57 PM
Ben was put in a shitty offensive system and he embraces and defends it when he saw it first hand how screwed up it was..

:iagree:

In psychology, Stockholm Syndrome is an apparently paradoxical psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy and have positive feelings towards their captors, sometimes to the point of defending them. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

Bruce Arians is one hell of an offensive coordinator.

Now that I have your attention, let me back up that statement. No, wait. Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger wants to do it. He's aware of the ridiculous anti-Arians sentiment around town. He can't understand it, either.

"He gets way, way too much blame and criticism," Roethlisberger told the national media this week. "It's kind of unfortunate because he's so good. If you ask the players, we know. If you ask someone that knows the game of football, you'll know how good he is and what he's done for the offense and what he brings."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11022/1119967-87.stm

steelers33
02-06-2012, 08:10 PM
this is the old "what have you done lately " thread. if the steelers win the SB next year , he'll go back to hugging ben's nuts.

Its the offseason man, what do you expect. And how did I come off as bashing Ben, I just said that I'd rather take Eli over him but its close, real course. Of course which qb wins their 3rd SB first would be considered better outright.

objectivefan
02-06-2012, 08:11 PM
Ben is a better quarterback in my opinion, I know Eli is coming
off a SB victory, but my God give Ben that offensive line and he would
be unstoppable

objectivefan
02-06-2012, 08:12 PM
Also you cant just judge a QB by superbowels
Dan Marino was a pretty good QB wasnt he ??

OX1947
02-06-2012, 08:30 PM
Man, all this garbage of who's better is getting tiring. The Super Bowl has turned into one missed or made catch from losing to winning.

However, Eli is the better QB for ONE reason. He is healthy each and every game. Part of your talent is to stay in the game, especially at QB. Big Ben doesn't seem to adapt to the fact that he is good enough to be a pocket guy but continues to play street ball. Sure, it is good when plays work, but unfortunately, the older you get, the less effective your body is at healing from constant hits. Broken bones in the foot and sprains and all this crap hinders things. It hinders play and it hinders the future.

We will truly know next year how Big Ben plays when he has a competent play caller in his prime. When Whiz was here and Cowher was coach, Steelers were still a run first type offense. In 2008, the Steelers offense not scoring in the red zone almost lost the Super Bowl for us. In 2010, that INT for a TD that Green Bay got should have never happened do to Big Ben doing a 3 step drop in the freakin end zone knowing your all pro center is out and our guards sucked.

Then again, it doesn't matter does it. The NFL is a crap shoot with luck behind everything. Skill and execution is only as good on that particular Sunday. Green Bay owned all year in that department and they still got beat because they were horrible at the worst time.

If Ike Taylor doesnt have his worst game as a pro in Denver, this isnt even an issue. Ike Taylor not playing like garbage has nothing to do with play calls or Big Ben. It's one big I dont know now in the NFL. A 9-7 team won the Super Bowl. Who the **** knows anymore.

austinfrench76
02-06-2012, 08:36 PM
Ben, no question.

AND - with our Oline, there would be 2 Mannings on the DL at ALL TIMES.

ETL
02-07-2012, 10:44 PM
Haven't read all the posts but anyone who thinks the Giants had a better Offensive line is wrong. They had the worst rushing offense in the league and their line was as hodge podge as ours.

We will have Ben for a while as our QB so I will support him. But it does not mean that he does not have room to improve. He has plenty. Being more like Eli in not taking so many sacks and protecting the ball better would be a good start.

There seems to be a general sentiment that Arians coddled Ben and Ben was somewhat of a spoiled brat with Arians and Haley will be the opposite. I confess I am in this crowd who feels this way and I am glad that Haley will kick some butt when needed.

I saw glimpses of how good Ben can really be during the regular season game against New England this past year. Quick reads and quick passes - none of his scrambling for sacks crap. I hope Haley can bring that out of Ben and cut Ben's ego down a notch.

ggoldman
02-07-2012, 11:00 PM
Considering Eli went up against the WORST defense of all time to ever make the super bowl, and still had trouble beating them, i'd say Ben all day every day. Ben doesn't go three years between playoff wins, and he doesn't average like 16 int's a year. Ben also has more wins in the regular season (with 6 fewer games started) and playoffs, and has a much higher career QB rating.

jiminpa
02-07-2012, 11:50 PM
Considering Eli went up against the WORST defense of all time to ever make the super bowl, and still had trouble beating them, i'd say Ben all day every day. Ben doesn't go three years between playoff wins, and he doesn't average like 16 int's a year. Ben also has more wins in the regular season (with 6 fewer games started) and playoffs, and has a much higher career QB rating....and how many bad defenses has Ben made look like ours? Quite a few. I think he had 16 interceptions in the first Baltimore game--okay, it wasn't really that many, but he had more turnovers than points--that's points, not touchdowns. Like Arians and Tomlin, Ben's wins have mostly come on the coat tails of the defense, so, sorry, but no. Ben is currently a poor to average QB who could have been very good to great, and hopefully still will be.

sharkweek
02-08-2012, 03:26 AM
2-3 in superbowls vs 2-2, and inbetween superbowls the Steelers and Ben in particular has had better seasons than the Giants and Eli.

Don't be a prisoner of the moment, Eli's stock is way too high right now solely because he won another Superbowl, there's even ludicrous talk of Eli being the best Manning. If Peyton wasn't heads and toes better than Eli, he'd likely have a couple more Superbowl wins as well, instead he soaks up a ton of cap room and is so good he ultimately hurts his team because they have less money for the surrounding talent as well as evolving to rely too much on how absolutely incredibly awesome he is.

If Eli makes it to the HOF it will be because of his multiple superbowl wins, not because of his averaged performance. Just look at Bradshaw.

BLACK_AND_YELLOW
02-08-2012, 04:48 AM
...and how many bad defenses has Ben made look like ours? Quite a few. I think he had 16 interceptions in the first Baltimore game--okay, it wasn't really that many, but he had more turnovers than points--that's points, not touchdowns. Like Arians and Tomlin, Ben's wins have mostly come on the coat tails of the defense, so, sorry, but no. Ben is currently a poor to average QB who could have been very good to great, and hopefully still will be.

Big Ben is a Average QB really? SMH

Didnt Eli Throw Like 25 Ints last year? and this year he finally had a great year and you think he is better? cmon dont be stupid cause Eli played in division thats was mediocre and could be easy to win and once he got in the playoffs he did not even play against a a great defence until the 49ers game and the 49ers gave them that game by the fumble that gave the NYG a field goal to win it all and then they played the Pats horrible Defence and they use the same tactics that The Steelers used this year when they played the Pats and that was to keep Tom Brady on the field and they did that....and the Giants better be glad they did not lose those fumbles cause this conversation would not be happening now.

And yeah i know what you will say that he is a two time Super Bowl MVP and i know that but wasnt Bens first Superbowl his second season? he was a young QB he made mistakes and he could have easily been the Super Bowl MVP in Super Bowl 43 if it was not for the pass that was tiped in the air and got Intercepted and in Super Bowl 45 He got HIT on the first Int that made him under throw Mike Wallace and gave up a pick 6 and the second one was a tight pass that Mike Wallace should have played more physical for.....and PEOPLE like you need to think about stuff like that cause Its not always Bens Fault cause if Eli played with our line he would not even be a Top 10 QB

timmyBean
02-08-2012, 05:31 AM
Are you kidding me??

Here we go with these kind of posts................Sheez.

Terminator or Predator?

Liquid terminator can take the form of something it kills, so the two terminators focus on one predator, letting original terminator die, then liquid terminator takes the form of the slain predator and battles the remaining predator. I give liquid terminator predator a good chance against regular predator. And on and on...

rgj
02-08-2012, 07:30 AM
Ben is the best qb that ever came out of Cory-Rawson.....

Bayz101
02-08-2012, 07:48 AM
Terminator or Predator?

Liquid terminator can take the form of something it kills, so the two terminators focus on one predator, letting original terminator die, then liquid terminator takes the form of the slain predator and battles the remaining predator. I give liquid terminator predator a good chance against regular predator. And on and on...

:rofl:

jiminpa
02-08-2012, 07:48 AM
Big Ben is a Average QB really? SMH

Didnt Eli Throw Like 25 Ints last year? and this year he finally had a great year and you think he is better? cmon dont be stupid cause Eli played in division thats was mediocre and could be easy to win and once he got in the playoffs he did not even play against a a great defence until the 49ers game and the 49ers gave them that game by the fumble that gave the NYG a field goal to win it all and then they played the Pats horrible Defence and they use the same tactics that The Steelers used this year when they played the Pats and that was to keep Tom Brady on the field and they did that....and the Giants better be glad they did not lose those fumbles cause this conversation would not be happening now.

And yeah i know what you will say that he is a two time Super Bowl MVP and i know that but wasnt Bens first Superbowl his second season? he was a young QB he made mistakes and he could have easily been the Super Bowl MVP in Super Bowl 43 if it was not for the pass that was tiped in the air and got Intercepted and in Super Bowl 45 He got HIT on the first Int that made him under throw Mike Wallace and gave up a pick 6 and the second one was a tight pass that Mike Wallace should have played more physical for.....and PEOPLE like you need to think about stuff like that cause Its not always Bens Fault cause if Eli played with our line he would not even be a Top 10 QBI'm not going to say any of that. I'm going to say that I have watched Ben play and he has regressed as an NFL quarterback over the last 5 years to playing like some kid at recess, but he has a strong enough arm to get away with it. He has become one dimensional, and his one dimension is not very productive on the scoreboard. I am hoping the new OC pushes him to not only get back to his previous form, but to develop to nearly where what his potential was. I also think that at least some of our line problems are in the design of the plays, (I truly believe that Arians intentionally left linebackers unblocked on the running plays and believed in bad blocking schemes in pass protection).

Truthfully, I don't watch the Giants, so I can't make a valuable comparison with Eli Manning. I know he looked like he belonged in the Superbowl, but that is not a good sample to make a real evaluation.

pancake
02-08-2012, 01:54 PM
Eli entered the elite. That said, give me NOBODY else than Roethlisberger. I'm taking Ben ALL DAY LONG. I've seen, with my own eyes, the grittiest and toughest son of a bitch to play the QB position. Roethlisberger 100 times out of 100.

I'm with this guy! :tt04:

Bayz101
02-08-2012, 01:58 PM
I'm with this guy! :tt04:

I have to agree as well.

Darkstorm05
02-08-2012, 02:29 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/42068/poll-roethlisberger-or-eli-manning

Ben by a landslide, it seems. Regardless of whether you chose Ben or Eli, I think the most important thing here is to remember that NOBODY wanted Phillip Rivers.