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mesaSteeler
02-09-2012, 08:31 PM
Roethlisberger speaks on Haley hire, state of offense
Thursday, February 09, 2012
By Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Todd Haley has been hired, met with his new colleagues on Mike Tomlin's coaching staff, with members of the front office and finally with the media at noon today.

Another Steelers employee was looking forward this morning to his first meeting with the new offensive coordinator: Quarterback Ben Roethlisberger.

"I haven't talked to him," Roethlisberger said at the Steelers training facility where, 20 minutes later, Haley would be introduced at a press conference just down the hall as the team's new offensive coordinator.

"I've gotten a lot of calls and texts and emails from people around the league, both good and bad about him,'' Roethlisberger said during an interview with the Post-Gazette. "Everybody has an opinion, as we all know, and they're letting me know what their interaction with him was -- good, bad and indifferent. I've heard a lot of things and I'm looking forward to meeting him and forming my own opinion."

Roethlisberger admitted he was "shocked" when he learned Bruce Arians was not offered a contract renewal as offensive coordinator. He said coach Mike Tomlin has since kept him in the "loop" about his search for Arians' replacement, although he had no input into who that would be.

Now, the quarterback is anxious about what offense Haley might run -- whether he will chuck the Steelers offense that has evolved from Mike Mularkey to Ken Whisenhunt to Arians in favor of his own, whether he will maintain the Steelers offense or whether there will be some type of meshing of the two.

Haley was not definitive about his offensive plans during his press conference, just that he would "start with a clean slate.''

"It would probably be easy for him to do," Roethlisberger said about Haley possibly choosing to stick with his offense. "I don't know if it would be easy for us to learn it. We're so young on offense and the most talented room in this whole building is probably wide receiver, no disrespect to anyone else. And they're also really young."

"They're still the tip of the iceberg in this offense and they did as well as they did last year. And they're just getting to the point that 'OK, this makes sense to me.'

"That was my biggest talking point to Mike and those guys -- I would hate to just throw everything out and start over because I feel it would set us back two or three years because these guys are just starting to get it.

"I hope we don't have to start over and if we do, you know what, here we go. Let's do it. We'll do it. We're not going to complain about it. But I would hate to have to set certain guys back who are doing so well right now."
Ed Bouchette: ebouchette@post-gazette.com

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/12040/1209184-100.stm#ixzz1lwU1n3I8

madtowndrunkard
02-09-2012, 10:38 PM
Wow... sounds like our QB isn't all in w Haley. I think Ben needs to check him self. He obviously forgot who's team this is. What I don't understand is how Ben still thinks that Arians offense was on the verge of greatness. I think the expression "'he's too close to the trees to see the forest" applies here.

I seems Ben has an excuse for everything...and none of it's his fault. Why else would he be making the comments about the WR's finally getting the system...we were just about to be great BS. Then to say if Haley brings in his own system it's putting these young WR's back 2-3 years? What kind of BS is that? Is Ben's interest in winning? He must think we didn't win a SB because of the defense. He's showing ZERO accountability on his side of the ball..... otherwise he wouldn't be so anti Haley right now.

That statement is Ben trying to be "politically correct" and he came off as being a bi@# IMO. I'm shocked that he would make those comments publicly.

TRH
02-09-2012, 10:40 PM
He's saying what i think just about any QB would say. No big deal. It looks like he's looking forward to working with Haley.
Don't read too much into it and super-over-analyze it.

jiminpa
02-09-2012, 10:41 PM
Just goes to demonstrate what I have sensed for years. Ben didn't care that the offense didn't score as long as he got to have his fun and pad his meaningless stats columns.

madtowndrunkard
02-09-2012, 10:43 PM
The correct answer for Ben should have been....

"What ever coach Haley wants to do to help us win...I'm all in 100%. Obviously our offense has struggled to show any consistency for several years now...and we took a step backwards in scoring.... 22nd in the league is not acceptable to me and obviously Mr. Rooney. So what ever Coach Haley wants to do..I'm behind him 100%."

Not this.. I've heard good and bad..I'll have to form my own opinion... I sure hope he doesn't try installing a new offense because it will put us back 3 years crock of BS.

FanSince72
02-09-2012, 10:59 PM
I completely agree with Ben when he said this:

"It would probably be easy for him to do," Roethlisberger said about Haley possibly choosing to stick with his offense. "I don't know if it would be easy for us to learn it. We're so young on offense and the most talented room in this whole building is probably wide receiver, no disrespect to anyone else. And they're also really young."

"They're still the tip of the iceberg in this offense and they did as well as they did last year. And they're just getting to the point that 'OK, this makes sense to me.'

"That was my biggest talking point to Mike and those guys -- I would hate to just throw everything out and start over because I feel it would set us back two or three years because these guys are just starting to get it.

"I hope we don't have to start over and if we do, you know what, here we go. Let's do it. We'll do it. We're not going to complain about it. But I would hate to have to set certain guys back who are doing so well right now."

I've said many times that whatever it was that they have been working on was still a work in progress, was still evolving and to a large extent was being done on the fly. I believe that the offense really was getting close to something and the wideouts were still learning -- not just the "X's and O's" crap, but the more subtle things like reading Ben as well as each other and developing that sixth sense about each other and that just takes time.

I think that's what Ben's talking about and I think he's just concerned that if Haley comes in and wants to change everything that it will throw out all of that development and may very well set things back a lot.

I think that the most difficult thing to develop is chemistry and that chemistry is more important than just learning a playbook or a route. It's like a great band -- there are thousands of guys who can play an instrument but only when the right group of them come together do you get a great band. Ben sounds as if he saw that chemistry starting to come together and he's afraid that Haley might end up screwing it up.

I can't blame him for feeling that way and I certainly don't blame him for having reservations.

madtowndrunkard
02-09-2012, 11:19 PM
I completely agree with Ben when he said this:

"It would probably be easy for him to do," Roethlisberger said about Haley possibly choosing to stick with his offense. "I don't know if it would be easy for us to learn it. We're so young on offense and the most talented room in this whole building is probably wide receiver, no disrespect to anyone else. And they're also really young."

"They're still the tip of the iceberg in this offense and they did as well as they did last year. And they're just getting to the point that 'OK, this makes sense to me.'

"That was my biggest talking point to Mike and those guys -- I would hate to just throw everything out and start over because I feel it would set us back two or three years because these guys are just starting to get it.

"I hope we don't have to start over and if we do, you know what, here we go. Let's do it. We'll do it. We're not going to complain about it. But I would hate to have to set certain guys back who are doing so well right now."

I've said many times that whatever it was that they have been working on was still a work in progress, was still evolving and to a large extent was being done on the fly. I believe that the offense really was getting close to something and the wideouts were still learning -- not just the "X's and O's" crap, but the more subtle things like reading Ben as well as each other and developing that sixth sense about each other and that just takes time.

I think that's what Ben's talking about and I think he's just concerned that if Haley comes in and wants to change everything that it will throw out all of that development and may very well set things back a lot.

I think that the most difficult thing to develop is chemistry and that chemistry is more important than just learning a playbook or a route. It's like a great band -- there are thousands of guys who can play an instrument but only when the right group of them come together do you get a great band. Ben sounds as if he saw that chemistry starting to come together and he's afraid that Haley might end up screwing it up.

I can't blame him for feeling that way and I certainly don't blame him for having reservations.

I'd maybe agree with you if Haley was taking over a great offense. He's not. He's taking over great players who could never seem to get on the same page. This is the NFL. You don't get 3-4 years to learn your offense before you actually show consistency . Ben should have been professional and welcomed his new superior. I'm guessing Mr Rooney will be none to happy to read that comment from Ben.

tony hipchest
02-09-2012, 11:27 PM
this is not a barber shop quartet. it is more like a symphony with 53 members.

in order for the offense to be "great" they need a good conductor.

as for the receivers and ben being on the same page, that comes with time spent together in practice.. its football, not a 4 year mastery degree with arians spoon feeding them info out of massive textbooks and dissertations.

as far as i can tell, the steelers offensive practices pretty much consisted of ben and arians playing "pull my finger".

jiminpa
02-09-2012, 11:28 PM
I completely agree with Ben when he said this:

"It would probably be easy for him to do," Roethlisberger said about Haley possibly choosing to stick with his offense. "I don't know if it would be easy for us to learn it. We're so young on offense and the most talented room in this whole building is probably wide receiver, no disrespect to anyone else. And they're also really young."

"They're still the tip of the iceberg in this offense and they did as well as they did last year. And they're just getting to the point that 'OK, this makes sense to me.'

"That was my biggest talking point to Mike and those guys -- I would hate to just throw everything out and start over because I feel it would set us back two or three years because these guys are just starting to get it.

"I hope we don't have to start over and if we do, you know what, here we go. Let's do it. We'll do it. We're not going to complain about it. But I would hate to have to set certain guys back who are doing so well right now."

I've said many times that whatever it was that they have been working on was still a work in progress, was still evolving and to a large extent was being done on the fly. I believe that the offense really was getting close to something and the wideouts were still learning -- not just the "X's and O's" crap, but the more subtle things like reading Ben as well as each other and developing that sixth sense about each other and that just takes time.

I think that's what Ben's talking about and I think he's just concerned that if Haley comes in and wants to change everything that it will throw out all of that development and may very well set things back a lot.

I think that the most difficult thing to develop is chemistry and that chemistry is more important than just learning a playbook or a route. It's like a great band -- there are thousands of guys who can play an instrument but only when the right group of them come together do you get a great band. Ben sounds as if he saw that chemistry starting to come together and he's afraid that Haley might end up screwing it up.

I can't blame him for feeling that way and I certainly don't blame him for having reservations.All of that development toward 32nd scoring offense in the league. It really is a shame that Rooney had to step in and screw all of that up.

When I lived in Jacksonville I used to tell the locals, "when you're that bad for that long, you're not rebuilding, you're just that bad."

tony hipchest
02-09-2012, 11:34 PM
All of that development toward 32nd scoring offense in the league. It really is a shame that Rooney had to step in and screw all of that up.

In pro sports when you suck year after year, it's not rebuilding, it's just sucking.hey! its taken alot of years to teach miller to whif on blocks and allow 40+ sacks on ben, and to run block on fewer rush attempts all while regressing as a pass catcher at the same time.

thats not easy to do. he's young and just about to "get it". i'd hate to see him start all over with 7 td's a year again. :chuckle:

Sneak
02-09-2012, 11:56 PM
I see nothing wrong with Bens comments.

I think alot of people around here simply take any shot they can at our QB.

A question; when you keep berating Ben for being too vocal and lacking in loyalty (which I dont agree with at all) - what exactly does is say about your loyalty as fans? See alot of people here who only seem to be fans when theres a ring at the end of the year.

wyn50
02-10-2012, 12:02 AM
The media loves to make something out of nothing. they never even met face to face yet.

Wallace108
02-10-2012, 12:32 AM
I see nothing wrong with Bens comments.

I think alot of people around here simply take any shot they can at our QB.

The media loves to make something out of nothing. they never even met face to face yet.

I have a lot of first-hand experience at seeing reporters make a mountain out of a molehill. But I'm in the camp that thinks Ben is being an ass. Maybe "being an ass" is too strong of a statement, but he's certainly creating tension instead of trying to move forward. And we can blame the reporters if we want, but there are two facts here:

1. Getting Ben's opinions on Arians and Haley is a story. No one cares what the ball boy thinks about Arians and Haley. But Ben's thoughts matter. So of course what he says is going to be a story.

2. Ben isn't being misquoted, and his words aren't being taken out of context.

With that in mind, here's my thoughts on some of his quotes ...

"Everybody has an opinion, as we all know, and they're letting me know what their interaction with him was -- good, bad and indifferent. I've heard a lot of things and I'm looking forward to meeting him and forming my own opinion."
Why even mention that he's heard bad things about Haley? Why not say something like ... "I'm looking forward to meeting him and talking about his ideas for the offense."

Mentioning that he's heard other players say bad things about Haley sounds like he's taking a little jab at him. There was no need to even mention it.

Regarding Haley's offense ...

"I don't know if it would be easy for us to learn it. We're so young on offense and the most talented room in this whole building is probably wide receiver, no disrespect to anyone else. And they're also really young."

"They're still the tip of the iceberg in this offense and they did as well as they did last year. And they're just getting to the point that 'OK, this makes sense to me.'

"That was my biggest talking point to Mike and those guys -- I would hate to just throw everything out and start over because I feel it would set us back two or three years because these guys are just starting to get it."

First of all, why is Ben throwing the receivers under the bus? Wallace is entering his fourth year, and Brown and Sanders are entering their third. They're not rookies. They understand the game. So why does Ben think it would be harder for them to learn a new offense than it would be for him to learn it? His comments come off a little arrogant at best, and condescending to the receivers at worst.

And why does Ben think a new system would set the offense back two or three years? Based on his opinion, no team should EVER get rid of its offensive coordinator. But we know teams don't always take a step backward when they replace their OC. That might be the case for bad teams like the Browns, but good teams don't seem to miss a beat when they replace a coach. Usually, they improve. Look at it this way ... when San Francisco brought in an entirely new coaching staff this year, did it set either the 49ers offense or defense back two or three years?

Every other time I've seen a player talk about a new coach, they at least pretend to be excited and talk about working hard and winning games. To me, Ben is coming off as a little kid who is throwing a tantrum because his parents are making him do something he doesn't want to do. On the first day of practice, I expect Ben to throw himself to the ground and start kicking and pounding the turf while screaming, "NO, NO, NO, I DON'T WANNA ..."

In all seriousness, I fully expect Ben to do all the right things. But right now, he's not saying all the right things. And his comments are making an already tense situation worse. And that's not the reporters' fault. It's not the fans' fault. It's Ben's fault. He's a leader. He needs to act like a leader ... both on and off the field. That's what he promised to do last year.

Sixburgher
02-10-2012, 12:36 AM
I think alot of people around here simply take any shot they can at our QB.

Glad I'm not the only one.

VegasStlrFan
02-10-2012, 01:31 AM
Ignorant, don't disrespect your new boss with the media prior to meeting him face to face. I am amazed the Rooneys continue to put up with this overated ass.

tanda10506
02-10-2012, 01:51 AM
Im not surprised by Ben's comments at all. Haley is new to this team while Ben has been anchoring it for years, Ben has been winning SB's and Afc championships for years while Haley has won nothing. I know a lot of people want him to come in and challenge Ben and get in his face (as Warner mentioned), but to me that is ridiculous. This offense has to change, it's horrible, and I am all for Haley doing that through PLAY CALLING, but we dont need to see any of that hot head garbage from Haley. Technically the OC is the boss, but a franchise QB is realistically more important and often assumes a role of equality (Manning, Marino, Brady, Rodgers, are all examples of that). Dont missunderstand me, I want this offense to change and I hope Haley will change it for the better, it just doesnt need to involve the hot headed garbage asociated with Haley. Ben makes a point that changing everything might set the receivers back, of course learning something new will take time, but the reason for them taking this long to "learn" and "get it" is likely due to Arians idiot play calling. It's hard to "get it" when "it" is without logic.

rgj
02-10-2012, 04:17 AM
Look out Cory-Rawson Roethlisberger.......Haley DOESN'T like golf....

kan_t
02-10-2012, 04:52 AM
Look out Cory-Rawson Roethlisberger.......Haley DOESN'T like golf....
Actually Haley played on the University of Florida and University of Miami respective golf squads in the past. So I think he likes golf and is good at it.

Ricco Suavez
02-10-2012, 05:48 AM
Once again regardless what Ben says at this junction he will judged by the media and fans. It is the classic damned if you do and damned if you don't. There are a few who will find fault with anything and everything, why some even find fault in the fact that he has been Superbowl QB for two Steeler teams.

plenewken
02-10-2012, 06:04 AM
A few more weeks and Ben will be big enough to compete for an OL job. Did you see his picture in the Post-Gazette today? How much does he weight now? 250-255?
I hope Haley tells him to hit the gym and lose weight ASAP.

Now, Ben's comment about hearing good and bad things about Haley was completely stupid and unnecessary.
His comments on the WRs having room for improvement was ridiculous too.

Hey Ben, stop consistently over-throwing or under-throwing your WRs. How's that for a change?

60_MINUTES
02-10-2012, 06:41 AM
Wow... sounds like our QB isn't all in w Haley. I think Ben needs to check him self. He obviously forgot who's team this is. What I don't understand is how Ben still thinks that Arians offense was on the verge of greatness. I think the expression "'he's too close to the trees to see the forest" applies here.

I seems Ben has an excuse for everything...and none of it's his fault. Why else would he be making the comments about the WR's finally getting the system...we were just about to be great BS. Then to say if Haley brings in his own system it's putting these young WR's back 2-3 years? What kind of BS is that? Is Ben's interest in winning? He must think we didn't win a SB because of the defense. He's showing ZERO accountability on his side of the ball..... otherwise he wouldn't be so anti Haley right now.

That statement is Ben trying to be "politically correct" and he came off as being a bi@# IMO. I'm shocked that he would make those comments publicly.





Wow some of you got this out of that article wow is all I can say... It sounded like a QB that was willing to do whatever his new coach wants to do... Of course he sounds like a guy that thinks what hes been doing is working and can work better... but at the same time he point blank said """ we wont complain... here we go...."""


what did you guys want him to say something like this " Man Im glad we got a new coach cause we are just lost and helpless... what we been doing for years just dont work... its clear to me that we suck so thank GOD someone is gonna save us ""

Come on guys give me a break... of course BEN is gonna say he thinks what they been doing can work...

FanSince72
02-10-2012, 07:58 AM
hey! its taken alot of years to teach miller to whif on blocks and allow 40+ sacks on ben, and to run block on fewer rush attempts all while regressing as a pass catcher at the same time.

thats not easy to do. he's young and just about to "get it". i'd hate to see him start all over with 7 td's a year again. :chuckle:

And I suppose that Haley is going to simply sit down, write up a new playbook, take it out on the practice field and by this time next year we'll be basking in the glow of our seventh SB win?

Really?

Like I've said before, I believe that the first few years with Arians was spent trying to create a basic, efficient offense. But with the emergence of the wideouts and the obvious lack of a huge running back, a decision was made to change gears and go in a different direction. It started with 'Tone, but when he left it had to start again and the new guys threw even more wrinkles into it and thus my "work in progress" comment.

To use the band analogy again, there have been many bands in history who were pretty good but were somehow lacking that "pop" and that only came after some personnel changes and some rearranging and I think this offense was very much like that. Put it this way, if 'Tone had stayed and Hines wasn't losing a step and we had a big-time running back along with a predictable O-line (in terms of health), I think the offense would have already evolved into a solid unit. But the opposite has happened and I think creating a solid unit would have been (and still may be) a challenge for anyone.

Obviously you and others don't see it that way but I do. I saw flashes of greatness throughout these last couple of seasons and I kept saying that if the line could settle down and have some consistency and Ben had the same group of receivers every year, we'd be awesome and I was willing to wait for that. Apparently not everyone else is.

And once again, let me point out that Arians never had a losing season and went to 2 SB's and by anyone's standards that's not too shabby. Granted, statistically we may not have been the greatest offense, but when people point that out, I usually counter by pointing out that statistically we had the best defense, but I never saw that and everyone I spoke to was surprised to hear that as well.

Arians' offense didn't give up a 92-yard drive to Baltimore nor did they get punk'd by a fifth-rate QB, yet absolutely no blame falls on LeBeau and his crew.

I just find that interesting. :noidea:

I hope that Haley comes in and really does get things moving and really does work some magic with the offense. But if he doesn't, then what?
Or will that just be Arians' fault as well?

ricardisimo
02-10-2012, 08:19 AM
Not every team is going to turn it around the way the 49ers did this year, and yet it obviously can be done (and that particular case was almost all coaching - relatively few roster changes). Do I expect the Steelers to be the #1 offense this year under Haley? I'd love it, but I'm certainly not betting the house on it.

It's not so much about producing miracles in one year. It's more about how it shouldn't take five years to develop an offense (and actually dip down in that fifth year, all while the OC and QB insist "the sky's the limit" and they're turning a corner.) Furthermore, did any of the developments in those five years actually make sense? I submit they did not. That Ben seems to think they did suggests that his priorities are not what they should be.

If Haley can score points and have his offense be something like an equal partner with the defense in this organization, then he will be an unmitigated success, irregardless of their ranking. The final rankings should be in the top third, though, let's be clear about that. If he can also get Ben to re-prioritize towards simply winning, whether by yelling at him or otherwise, then so much the better.
Arians' offense didn't give up a 92-yard drive to Baltimore nor did they get punk'd by a fifth-rate QB, yet absolutely no blame falls on LeBeau and his crew.

I just find that interesting.
Lebeau never had a losing season in that time frame either. What of it? You obviously have it in for Lebeau's "paper" defense, while preferring the completely solid and underrated Arians offense. :rolleyes: As far as Arians not losing that one, I don't think Suggs picking off the inevitable bubble screen helped our cause, nor did the inability or unwillingness to run the ball late and with a lead. Up 20-16 in the 4th, they come out passing, of course. They also fail, of course, to score even a field goal which would have solidified the game, not cemented it, but still... No, instead no points and very little time off the clock. Also, Rashard was running nicely that game... so let's put in Redman on that all-important drive instead: 3 carries, 2 yards.

kan_t
02-10-2012, 08:29 AM
Ben may say it better but it's up to Haley to convince the players that his plan works. No matter how silly people think Ben is, he and other players are going to follow Haley's plan at first. If the result is there, Ben will keep following and embracing it.

Darkstorm05
02-10-2012, 08:30 AM
I honestly don't think fixing the offense will be that big of a change for us. There were games this year that showed that we have the right plays to put together a solid passing attack. It's just a matter of getting the timing of calling the right ones under control. Nothing for the WR's there. The big changes, IMO, will be on the run side. That's not going to be hard for our poor young WR's to pick up.

Edman
02-10-2012, 09:15 AM
Arians' offense didn't give up a 92-yard drive to Baltimore nor did they get punk'd by a fifth-rate QB, yet absolutely no blame falls on LeBeau and his crew.

And now, the reason why Lebeau and the Defense is not being railroaded.

Yes, the Defense has had their trangressions and slip ups. But here's the point Arians Defenders miss. How many more times during Arians' time here has Lebeau's Defense had to cover up for HIS failures in his abortion of an offense and succeeded?

You get on the Defense for losing the Baltimore game, true.

But what about Indy? Jacksonville? Kansas City? Cincy I? Both Cleveland games? The AFC Title game against the Jets? Situations where the Defense has had to save games because our "elite" Offense could do jack worth a crap? Our 12 wins in 2011 had more to do with our Defense saving the day than whatever miracles the Offense was performing. It's been that way going back to 2008. Our Defense goes above and beyond to win games while our Offense farts around with Field Goals. Our Offense has been having trouble shutting the door on teams and winning games. Yes, Our D got Tebowed, but what do you have to say about our fantastic Offense that put up a pathetic 6 points on a weak Bronco Defense in a half, or the time where the Offense had the chance to win the game, but failed? The ONE moment where the team really needed the Offense to step up, they failed.

In a 2010 home against the Bengals, Our Defense OUTSCORED our Offense 14 to 9. Our Defense has proven it can seal games and more often than not it has succeeded. Our Offense rarely does no such thing. You know, the side of the football whose primary job is to SCORE POINTS. Without Lebeau's Defense playing out of their minds in 2008, we have no shot at winning #6 because our Offense was UTTERLY PUTRID that season.

That's why Lebeau is still here and why Airhead is not. That's why our Offense is undergoing an overhaul and the Defense is not.

FanSince72
02-10-2012, 10:05 AM
And now, the reason why Lebeau and the Defense is not being railroaded.

Yes, the Defense has had their trangressions and slip ups. But here's the point Arians Defenders miss. How many more times during Arians' time here has Lebeau's Defense had to cover up for HIS failures in his abortion of an offense and succeeded?

You get on the Defense for losing the Baltimore game, true.

But what about Indy? Jacksonville? Kansas City? Cincy I? Both Cleveland games? The AFC Title game against the Jets? Situations where the Defense has had to save games because our "elite" Offense could do jack worth a crap? Our 12 wins in 2011 had more to do with our Defense saving the day than whatever miracles the Offense was performing. It's been that way going back to 2008. Our Defense goes above and beyond to win games while our Offense farts around with Field Goals. Our Offense has been having trouble shutting the door on teams and winning games. Yes, Our D got Tebowed, but what do you have to say about our fantastic Offense that put up a pathetic 6 points on a weak Bronco Defense in a half, or the time where the Offense had the chance to win the game, but failed? The ONE moment where the team really needed the Offense to step up, they failed.

In a 2010 home against the Bengals, Our Defense OUTSCORED our Offense 14 to 9. Our Defense has proven it can seal games and more often than not it has succeeded. Our Offense rarely does no such thing. You know, the side of the football whose primary job is to SCORE POINTS. Without Lebeau's Defense playing out of their minds in 2008, we have no shot at winning #6 because our Offense was UTTERLY PUTRID that season.

That's why Lebeau is still here and why Airhead is not. That's why our Offense is undergoing an overhaul and the Defense is not.

I just pointed out those two particular games because they were both important games.

As for the other games, yes, I agree that the offense wasn't helping as much as it might have, but the defense we have now has consistently had problems getting teams off the field - particularly on third down. The more a team stays on the field the more they "hang around" and the closer the game ultimately becomes.

I said the offense was a work in progress and I believe that. But the defense - the Number One Defense - has never had to endure the criticism that Arians has had to endure despite the fact that the defense - though statistically good, was playing well below its potential too, yet they get a pass (even though they rarely ever intercepted one).

Put another way, I think the offense, though far from great, was at least moving in the right direction while the defense, in my opinion, has been stagnating and is nowhere near as formidable as many people would like to think it is.

Like I said, I hope I'm wrong and I hope Haley is the right move and I hope he can improve on what we have. But as I also said, I didn't see where the offense was all that terrible and I thought it was improving (albeit slowly) and I just hope that Haley doesn't ignore that or decides to change things just because he can.

tanda10506
02-10-2012, 10:27 AM
I have my doubts about it working out with Haley, but if the offense does adapt to his plans and he doesnt piss off the entire offense by being an ass then yes we can win a title this year. The defense will be there, they always are and will be better this year. Now weather you liked Arians or not, the fact is the offense sucked and the stats showed it. So if the defense plays how they have over the years, which they will, and our offense improves, then how are we not a SB contender? Considering it CANT get any worse on offense, I would have to say yes, we will be a contender and possibly champs next year.

madtowndrunkard
02-10-2012, 10:52 AM
And I suppose that Haley is going to simply sit down, write up a new playbook, take it out on the practice field and by this time next year we'll be basking in the glow of our seventh SB win?

Really?

Like I've said before, I believe that the first few years with Arians was spent trying to create a basic, efficient offense. But with the emergence of the wideouts and the obvious lack of a huge running back, a decision was made to change gears and go in a different direction. It started with 'Tone, but when he left it had to start again and the new guys threw even more wrinkles into it and thus my "work in progress" comment.

what you are saying sound like excuses....in the nfl your personnel is always changing...good offenses don't get derailed because you lose a WR..especially when you have 3 other very capable replacements....good offenses with good QB's and good wr's don't struggle to score ...there has been a constant problem of inconsistency under Arians. We have had the corp needed to be a top offense every year under BA

To use the band analogy again, there have been many bands in history who were pretty good but were somehow lacking that "pop" and that only came after some personnel changes and some rearranging and I think this offense was very much like that. Put it this way, if 'Tone had stayed and Hines wasn't losing a step and we had a big-time running back along with a predictable O-line (in terms of health), I think the offense would have already evolved into a solid unit. But the opposite has happened and I think creating a solid unit would have been (and still may be) a challenge for anyone.

The Band is not a good analogy at all...you are talking about comparing artistic quality to consistency and execution....if music were as simple as timing and note accuracy then maybe you'd have a point.... football is an execution, and judgment game....losing Tone should not disrupt a properly prepared offense...if we didn't have play makers other then Tone..then sure I could see a drop off... instead I'd argue we got better at WR

Obviously you and others don't see it that way but I do. I saw flashes of greatness throughout these last couple of seasons and I kept saying that if the line could settle down and have some consistency and Ben had the same group of receivers every year, we'd be awesome and I was willing to wait for that. Apparently not everyone else is.

You saw flashes of greatness...I saw inconsistency and unrealized potential more often then not

And once again, let me point out that Arians never had a losing season and went to 2 SB's and by anyone's standards that's not too shabby. Granted, statistically we may not have been the greatest offense, but when people point that out, I usually counter by pointing out that statistically we had the best defense, but I never saw that and everyone I spoke to was surprised to hear that as well.

We don't even sniff a SB if it were not for the defense playing consistent top notch football....and the talents of Ben....our offense did not win us games because of x's and o's... more often then not when the offense stepped up, it was Ben playing sandlot football ....rarely is the big play a designed play by the offense


Arians' offense didn't give up a 92-yard drive to Baltimore nor did they get punk'd by a fifth-rate QB, yet absolutely no blame falls on LeBeau and his crew.

You put blame on a rare bad performance by our defense .but you are quick to ignore the frequent failures of our offense? I find that interesting.

I just find that interesting. :noidea:

I hope that Haley comes in and really does get things moving and really does work some magic with the offense. But if he doesn't, then what?
Or will that just be Arians' fault as well?

I think given the talent we have offensively...all Haley needs to do is better prepare the offense to be more precise and consistent. Watching us run a screen the past few years was like watching a pop warner team run a trick play....like they rehearsed it 5 times last week and half the players didn't know where to be....or maybe this will analogy works better for you...watching our offense is like watching a band who's drummer never bothered to show up to practice...no matter how talented a musician you are..if you are not knowing the music you are out of sync.... in the steelers case Arians would be considered a poor conductor

TRH
02-10-2012, 10:58 AM
And I suppose that Haley is going to simply sit down, write up a new playbook, take it out on the practice field and by this time next year we'll be basking in the glow of our seventh SB win?

Really?

Like I've said before, I believe that the first few years with Arians was spent trying to create a basic, efficient offense. But with the emergence of the wideouts and the obvious lack of a huge running back, a decision was made to change gears and go in a different direction. It started with 'Tone, but when he left it had to start again and the new guys threw even more wrinkles into it and thus my "work in progress" comment.

To use the band analogy again, there have been many bands in history who were pretty good but were somehow lacking that "pop" and that only came after some personnel changes and some rearranging and I think this offense was very much like that. Put it this way, if 'Tone had stayed and Hines wasn't losing a step and we had a big-time running back along with a predictable O-line (in terms of health), I think the offense would have already evolved into a solid unit. But the opposite has happened and I think creating a solid unit would have been (and still may be) a challenge for anyone.

Obviously you and others don't see it that way but I do. I saw flashes of greatness throughout these last couple of seasons and I kept saying that if the line could settle down and have some consistency and Ben had the same group of receivers every year, we'd be awesome and I was willing to wait for that. Apparently not everyone else is.

And once again, let me point out that Arians never had a losing season and went to 2 SB's and by anyone's standards that's not too shabby. Granted, statistically we may not have been the greatest offense, but when people point that out, I usually counter by pointing out that statistically we had the best defense, but I never saw that and everyone I spoke to was surprised to hear that as well.

Arians' offense didn't give up a 92-yard drive to Baltimore nor did they get punk'd by a fifth-rate QB, yet absolutely no blame falls on LeBeau and his crew.

I just find that interesting. :noidea:

I hope that Haley comes in and really does get things moving and really does work some magic with the offense. But if he doesn't, then what?
Or will that just be Arians' fault as well?


Yeah, that's mind-boggling (i suppose thats Roethlisberger's fault, too, right?)......Arians offense certainly needs a lot of blame, because it definitely wasn't good....but you're right...the D is completely getting a pass when a good portion of the blame needs directed there too. Our D crew continually makes zero adjustments in the course of games and if you ask me, i don't care about how our defense "was rated". It was a paper defense in my mind and we played a bunch of horrific offensive teams.
Don't get me wrong.....our offense needs the change up badly and i'm completely excited for Haley being here.......but our defense getting a total pass? No way.

madtowndrunkard
02-10-2012, 11:02 AM
There were 2 VERY consistent issues with the offense that Arians ran....both of which lead to the fact we struggled to score - even against the worst of defenses. I believe Haley is a great choice to address these 2 issues....

#1 - execution.... rarely was sustained drive and / or big play the result of x's and o's. More often then not it was a broke play that Ben and / or the WR's made something out of nothing. I'll give credit were credit is due...I thought we did an amazing job of not turning the ball over considering how many broken plays and sacks we had on offense....another other offense probably leads the league in TO's with that kind of inconsistency and number of break downs. When we run actual screens to our RB's it looks like a Chinese fire drill.... the screen is really a tough play to orchestrate, but when rehearsed enough to be executed properly it really can be a great play.... our screens are chaos.... many of our plays are chaos. Timing seems to be a constant issue.... why? I would guess it has something to do with practice...if you want timing and cohesiveness you need to practice until you get it. The ability to execute consistently produces an offense that scores a lot of points... I see the packers, Pats, and saints as great examples of offenses that are well coached.

#2 - play calling / game plans.... Arians was known to ignore the most obvious of opportunities only to stick with his plan... if often burned us. Many of games did we ignore the opponents weakness. Play calling was often predictable and chaotic. I don't think too many people would argue that Haley is not better at game planning and play calling then Bruce Arians.

OX1947
02-10-2012, 11:06 AM
While many of you have a good point on the Steelers D playing like crap in a few games this year, I am going to go back to the most recent one, Denver. Steelers score 6 points on two red zone drives. If those are TDs, things would be different. Now, the Steelers played good D, the problem was they had 3 BAD big plays go against them. Other then that, they didnt play bad, and they didnt score TDs, total team in effort.

madtowndrunkard
02-10-2012, 11:08 AM
Yeah, that's mind-boggling (i suppose thats Roethlisberger's fault, too, right?)......Arians offense certainly needs a lot of blame, because it definitely wasn't good....but you're right...the D is completely getting a pass when a good portion of the blame needs directed there too. Our D crew continually makes zero adjustments in the course of games and if you ask me, i don't care about how our defense "was rated". It was a paper defense in my mind and we played a bunch of horrific offensive teams.
Don't get me wrong.....our offense needs the change up badly and i'm completely excited for Haley being here.......but our defense getting a total pass? No way.


The defense gets a pass because that sort of breakdown was rare.... we were all shocked that it happened. The bigger picture is the fact that our defense consistently carried us. At some point you have to ask the offense to step it up and carry us to victory.

Bayz101
02-10-2012, 11:10 AM
The defense gets a pass because that sort of breakdown was rare.... we were all shocked that it happened. The bigger picture is the fact that our defense consistently carried us. At some point you have to ask the offense to step it up and carry us to victory.

+1. I agree 100%.

TRH
02-10-2012, 11:11 AM
There were 2 VERY consistent issues with the offense that Arians ran....both of which lead to the fact we struggled to score - even against the worst of defenses. I believe Haley is a great choice to address these 2 issues....

#1 - execution.... rarely was sustained drive and / or big play the result of x's and o's. More often then not it was a broke play that Ben and / or the WR's made something out of nothing. I'll give credit were credit is due...I thought we did an amazing job of not turning the ball over considering how many broken plays and sacks we had on offense....another other offense probably leads the league in TO's with that kind of inconsistency and number of break downs. When we run actual screens to our RB's it looks like a Chinese fire drill.... the screen is really a tough play to orchestrate, but when rehearsed enough to be executed properly it really can be a great play.... our screens are chaos.... many of our plays are chaos. Timing seems to be a constant issue.... why? I would guess it has something to do with practice...if you want timing and cohesiveness you need to practice until you get it. The ability to execute consistently produces an offense that scores a lot of points... I see the packers, Pats, and saints as great examples of offenses that are well coached.

#2 - play calling / game plans.... Arians was known to ignore the most obvious of opportunities only to stick with his plan... if often burned us. Many of games did we ignore the opponents weakness. Play calling was often predictable and chaotic. I don't think too many people would argue that Haley is not better at game planning and play calling then Bruce Arians.


Those teams you mention also have rock-solid offensive lines and their QB has some extra time to read and execute. Often, Ben isn't running because he wants to be running around for no reason, its because our weak line has just been mowed down and plowed through in 2 seconds.

I'm looking forward to Haley running plays that will surprise everyone and not be so predictable like you mention.
One thing i hope he changes is the snap count. If you watch Brady, one big strength is that they'll run alot of no-huddles with him and he'll have all that time to read, look, and think...BUT he'll snap the ball at the 15 second mark, the 12 second mark, the 8 second mark, you're never really sure. When we do it, Ben runs the clock all the way down to 1 second every time, so we take the surprise factor out of the equation.

TRH
02-10-2012, 11:11 AM
The defense gets a pass because that sort of breakdown was rare.... we were all shocked that it happened. The bigger picture is the fact that our defense consistently carried us. At some point you have to ask the offense to step it up and carry us to victory.

i'm talking about getting a 100%, complete pass. No they don't. Sorry.

Bayz101
02-10-2012, 11:13 AM
Those teams you mention also have rock-solid offensive lines and their QB has some extra time to read and execute. Often, Ben isn't running because he wants to be running around for no reason, its because our weak line has just been mowed down and plowed through in 2 seconds.

I'm looking forward to Haley running plays that will surprise everyone and not be so predictable like you mention.
One thing i hope he changes is the snap count. If you watch Brady, one big strength is that they'll run alot of no-huddles with him and he'll have all that time to read, look, and think...BUT he'll snap the ball at the 15 second mark, the 12 second mark, the 8 second mark, you're never really sure. When we do it, Ben runs the clock all the way down to 1 second every time, so we take the surprise factor out of the equation.

Agree here too. What's the point in running a no huddle/hurry up offense when your exhausting all the time on the play clock? I've seen him do it several time's, and the funny thing is, we've has success! Imagine the success we'll have if we do it properly!

Bayz101
02-10-2012, 11:16 AM
Our defense has carried us since 2005. There we're time's we're the offense was explosive, but it was always the defense making the big play's to seal the game.

gloydfan
02-10-2012, 11:17 AM
Why waste time arguing with these people. Steelers offense has never been known for scoring a lot of points, but defense has been a top defense consistently. As far as lack of turnovers this past year, I think it's because of a combination of several things. Lack of pass rush (partly because of injuries). And teams know the offense doesn't put up a lot of points so they're more conservative and don't take as many chances. Start putting up 30 pts a game and force other teams to take more chances and the turnovers will come. Our defense was average at best, sometimes awful, until Lebeau came back. Dick isn't the problem. I'm not convinced Arians was, but since he's gone I hope he was. As another fan would say, Rock on!

Edman
02-10-2012, 11:30 AM
No one is absolving the Defense of blame on anything. But no one is castrating them because they have consistently saved our skin more often than not. I don't care if were a paper Defense in 2011 or not. Our Paper Defense was still better than our Moldy Offense.

As said, the Defense has made big plays to save games and they are the driving force to our success. The Offense has been dragging their feet for years.

FanSince72
02-10-2012, 02:49 PM
what you are saying sound like excuses....in the nfl your personnel is always changing...good offenses don't get derailed because you lose a WR..especially when you have 3 other very capable replacements....good offenses with good QB's and good wr's don't struggle to score ...there has been a constant problem of inconsistency under Arians. We have had the corp needed to be a top offense every year under BA



But what I'm saying is that I think Arians wanted to go in a different direction and he started to do that with 'Tone and then when he left he had to start again. This was made more difficult by not having anything special in the way of a running game as well as with a deteriorating O-line.


The Band is not a good analogy at all...you are talking about comparing artistic quality to consistency and execution....if music were as simple as timing and note accuracy then maybe you'd have a point.... football is an execution, and judgment game....losing Tone should not disrupt a properly prepared offense...if we didn't have play makers other then Tone..then sure I could see a drop off... instead I'd argue we got better at WR



Well, I've been in enough bands and I've even done some recording and I can tell you that timing, execution AND artistry are all part of the equation.
And no, under normal circumstances losing a standout WR shouldn't affect a team to any great extent. But in this case, when you're trying to redesign an offense based on that particular receiver (as well as the overall style of play he represents) then his leaving had a considerable effect.


You saw flashes of greatness...I saw inconsistency and unrealized potential more often then not


Which is basically saying the same thing.



We don't even sniff a SB if it were not for the defense playing consistent top notch football....and the talents of Ben....our offense did not win us games because of x's and o's... more often then not when the offense stepped up, it was Ben playing sandlot football ....rarely is the big play a designed play by the offense


And THAT has been my whole point with Arians' approach to the offense. I've said many times that the biggest problem he faced was designing an offense that complemented Ben's ability and desire to move around and create on the fly. I really think that's what Arians was trying to do.
Like anything else that's never been done before, there's no blueprint and nothing to compare it to so naturally there had to be some mis-steps and bad decisions along the way. Whether he should have tried or not is debatable, but I give him credit for entertaining the idea because if it worked, it may have been something that no one had ever seen before.



You put blame on a rare bad performance by our defense .but you are quick to ignore the frequent failures of our offense? I find that interesting.



I said the offense was a work in progress. That very statement suggests imperfection so mistakes are part of the deal. But for a NUMBER ONE DEFENSE we've been steadily declining over the last few years and though there may not be so much in the way of glaring mistakes, there HAS been an overall drop in performance.

As far as "rare bad performances" go, I find it interesting that those rare events happened at the most critical moments of critical games. You'd think that NUMBER ONE DEFENSE might make a few mistakes now and then but that they'd be there when it really counted, no? So where were they?



I think given the talent we have offensively...all Haley needs to do is better prepare the offense to be more precise and consistent. Watching us run a screen the past few years was like watching a pop warner team run a trick play....like they rehearsed it 5 times last week and half the players didn't know where to be....or maybe this will analogy works better for you...watching our offense is like watching a band who's drummer never bothered to show up to practice...no matter how talented a musician you are..if you are not knowing the music you are out of sync.... in the steelers case Arians would be considered a poor conductor



(my band analogy was better) :chuckle:

I can't argue about the consistency except to say that if Arians was looking more at an overall bigger picture in terms of style, then that requires a fair amount of inconsistency until things start to click. That's perfectly normal when trying something new and I think that once the overall philosophy was understood, then the details follow.

Look, it's obvious that we see things from different sides of the fence and the Arians argument is moot.
Maybe Haley is the answer or maybe Arians was asked to leave before he could finish something but no matter what, we can only go forward from here and see what happens.

So let's just agree to disagree and see what the future holds. :drink: