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View Full Version : Has eli surpass ben ?


Alsteel
02-20-2012, 05:09 AM
I am going by super bowl performance,

Rick5895
02-20-2012, 05:25 AM
I'll take Ben over pretty much any QB in the league on this team. He fits this team better than most QB's in the league. I certainly hope this doesn't turn into another Ben bashing thread and "I would rather have this guy than Ben", but I'm sure it will.

dbsfgyd1
02-20-2012, 06:41 AM
No. Emphatically no.

steelfury02
02-20-2012, 07:23 AM
I'll just say this

- Ben had one of if not the greatest game winning drive in SB history

- Yes - Ben statistically had the worst QB performance, but still made critical plays

- Lastly, Eli's receivers have shown up late in the season. Outside of Antonio Brown - not many I can name that have helped Ben late in the season the past couple years. Winning and losing is a team effort - so by no accounts am I putting the lone blame on any WRs - but aside from El to Hines in XL and Holmes being possessed on the last drive in XLIII, the Steelers receivers IMHO need to get back to late season "clutch" levels for them to get #7

BKAnthem
02-20-2012, 07:52 AM
I give Eli a slight edge because he did more to help his Team win his first ring than Ben did...and i'm not sure Ben would thrive under Coughlin...he seems to sensitive

lloydwoodson
02-20-2012, 08:03 AM
Yes he has by two Super Bowl MVP Awards.

There is not a top five quarterback list in the NFL- there is a top four list and it goes in no particular order: D. Brees, T. Brady, P. Manning, and A. Rodgers. People can debate the fifth all day but no one in their right mind would debate those four. Outside of that I'm not sure if it matters who is better than whom. I think there will be an obvious fifth emerge next year and I think it will be either Matt Stafford or Cam Newton. They both had monster years last year and Newton was a rookie.

zcoop
02-20-2012, 08:04 AM
I'll just say this

- Ben had one of if not the greatest game winning drive in SB history

- Yes - Ben statistically had the worst QB performance, but still made critical plays

- Lastly, Eli's receivers have shown up late in the season. Outside of Antonio Brown - not many I can name that have helped Ben late in the season the past couple years. Winning and losing is a team effort - so by no accounts am I putting the lone blame on any WRs - but aside from El to Hines in XL and Holmes being possessed on the last drive in XLIII, the Steelers receivers IMHO need to get back to late season "clutch" levels for them to get #7

I say they're pretty even. But C'Mon Man, don't try to diss WRs to make your point. This is about QB decision making and Ben has made some Big snafus at critical times the last two seasons.

But overall, he has performed on par with Eli.

FrancoLambert
02-20-2012, 08:54 AM
Living in the N.Y.-N.J. metro area I have seen Eli since day 1.
His growing pains are well documented, same as Ben.
However, Eli's awareness of the big picture seems better at this point in time.
His decision making has improved a great deal.
He rarely risks injury by prolonging a play, he gets rid of the ball if the play is shot.
Ben, gunslinger that he is, always wants to try and make the big play.
Bad interceptions and injuries result. (Cleveland game injury - in hindsight did it decide our season?)
At this point in time, Eli gets a slight edge.

Ricco Suavez
02-20-2012, 09:00 AM
I do not like Eli but will give him props this year. He had a horrible year last year and one of his best this year, but one fact remains the Giants were 7-7 with two games left this season and its not a coincidence that they began their SuperBowl run when they got healthy and most of their front defense back. Eli had no real "brain farts" but really did nothing special in both of his Superbowls. A no name receiver makes a miracle catch and his defense holds the Patriots to 14 and 17 points. Meanwhile against the Patriots defense the Giants score 17 and 19 (2 points goes to the defense for the safety). Eli was named MVP in his first Superbowl because he is a Manning, his numbers were not as good as the numbers Ben put up in his second Bowl.

Bayz101
02-20-2012, 11:00 AM
I'm not sure, and I really don't believe it's relevant, to be honest. I also don't think Super Bowl MVP award's should be a deciding factor at all. I honestly think Ben should have won MVP for the '08 SuperBowl.

OX1947
02-20-2012, 11:06 AM
If Big Ben had drove on the final drive.in super bowl 45 and scored, eli would still be chasing him....

Bayz101
02-20-2012, 11:11 AM
If Big Ben had drove on the final drive.in super bowl 45 and scored, eli would still be chasing him....

If Mike Wallace would have caught the pass on fourth down, that may have been possible.

steelfury02
02-20-2012, 11:22 AM
I didn't "diss" any WR - what more do you want than me already stating that WRs ALONE don't win/lose games - its a collective effort - as I already stated

Facts are facts - Mike Wallace needs to seriously up his game and prove he is clutch. Antonio Brown to me, is already in the midst of surpassing Wallace, and I think with Haley - that will be even more apparent - unless Mike can be all in and keep improving in his route running and especially, his blocking ability

zcoop
02-20-2012, 11:45 AM
I didn't "diss" any WR - what more do you want than me already stating that WRs ALONE don't win/lose games - its a collective effort - as I already stated

Facts are facts - Mike Wallace needs to seriously up his game and prove he is clutch. Antonio Brown to me, is already in the midst of surpassing Wallace, and I think with Haley - that will be even more apparent - unless Mike can be all in and keep improving in his route running and especially, his blocking ability

This thread is about the QBs not their Wrs. I am more inclined to compare the skills and decision making of the two mentioned in the thread heading. That's all I'm sayin.

StainlessStill
02-20-2012, 12:29 PM
Why do people put so much emphasis and emotion in these exhausting debates? Does it even matter? For the record, I like Eli. I like the Giants and the blue collar attitude that they play with. I have nothing against Eli OR the 2004 draft class (even though Rivers is a punk.) All I really care about is seeing our team get better and for that to happen, it's all on #7 to take us there. I'm comfortable with that regardless what Eli or all the other 30 NFL starting QB's in the league does.

steelfury02
02-20-2012, 12:50 PM
I think without the WRs the argument would be pretty mute - someone has to catch the ball - there are plenty of professional QBs that would concede their receivers make them look better than what they are - so yea, its a pretty important factor

Yes each QB has his own skill set. If not for a fantastic tip toe grab by Holmes, there would be no argument as Ben would be sitting with 1 statistically bad SB performance. End of story. You wanted to pick at my comments so reap the rewards.

zcoop
02-20-2012, 12:53 PM
I think without the WRs the argument would be pretty mute - someone has to catch the ball - there are plenty of professional QBs that would concede their receivers make them look better than what they are - so yea, its a pretty important factor

Yes each QB has his own skill set. If not for a fantastic tip toe grab by Holmes, there would be no argument as Ben would be sitting with 1 statistically bad SB performance. End of story.

Aw'ight :noidea:. I just wanted to stay on topic. Peace.

steelfury02
02-20-2012, 12:55 PM
peace out home skillet

StainlessStill
02-20-2012, 12:58 PM
I think without the WRs the argument would be pretty mute - someone has to catch the ball - there are plenty of professional QBs that would concede their receivers make them look better than what they are - so yea, its a pretty important factor

Yes each QB has his own skill set. If not for a fantastic tip toe grab by Holmes, there would be no argument as Ben would be sitting with 1 statistically bad SB performance. End of story.



Yep, and if not for Tyree's bubble-gum catch in Super Bowl XLII and Manningham's over the shoulder thrilling grab in XLVI, Eli sits at 0. If a kicker doesn't kick those last second FG's, Brady is left with 1 as well. Every key factor plays a special ingredient in the game of football, not just the QB or WR combination. Hell, the most important things go unnoticed. One of Ben's scramble's in XLIII and finding Heath Miller for the sticks on 3rd down was unreal and crucial. The way Ben eluded the rush on the first couple plays on that final drive in Super Bowl XLIII allowed our destination to continue, which all tied into setting up Santonio's tip-toe catch. Hell, good thing Ben found him. Holmes was the 3rd read on that play.

That's why I love football. Every last little piece of fiber that's in that single blade of grass could be the difference in a win or loss and there's only two teams. The one that perfects the odds the best, ultimately wins the war.

Ricco Suavez
02-20-2012, 01:02 PM
Holmes has said himself that the play before the catch he missed a much easier reception. I guess he missed on purpose to make the next catch more memorable or dramatic if you will. :rofl:

Bayz101
02-20-2012, 01:06 PM
Aw'ight :noidea:. I just wanted to stay on topic. Peace.

Good on you, topic's have been derailed way too much lately and that's where this is heading.

Millers the sh!t
02-20-2012, 01:26 PM
Are you kidding me? Eli played lights out. Making beautiful decisions and throwing balls in small windows. Eli got my vote.

I think having a better line (IMO), a running game that defenses have to respect, and an OC that ain't a total dummy helps A LOT though.

Ricco Suavez
02-20-2012, 01:43 PM
Are you kidding me? Eli played lights out. Making beautiful decisions and throwing balls in small windows. Eli got my vote.

I think having a better line (IMO), a running game that defenses have to respect, and an OC that ain't a total dummy helps A LOT though.

And with all that they managed 19 points against the last place defense in the league. Sounds like they need to change OC.:rofl:

StainlessStill
02-20-2012, 01:47 PM
The Giants are LUCKY they pounced on their own fumbles (3.) New England's 12 men on the field came back and bit them as hard as any.

Ricco Suavez
02-20-2012, 01:52 PM
Like I said earlier, G-men were 7-7 and made their Super Bowl run. Eli had a good year, he had a horrible one last year. I am just saying as much as some like to point out that Ben is nothing without his defense, its obvious to me that Eli benefits from a dominant defense more than Ben has.

Bill Cowher's Jaw
02-20-2012, 03:46 PM
The Giants are LUCKY they pounced on their own fumbles (3.) New England's 12 men on the field came back and bit them as hard as any.

I don't get why it's lucky for an offensive player to recover a fumble but it's a good heads-up play when a defensive guy recovers one. One bounced right to a Giant...but the Chris Snee recovery was simply a good play by him.

LayingTheWoodley56
02-20-2012, 04:19 PM
I'm from New York, so I too have watched Eli from the start of his career. It pains me to say it, and this is not a knock on Ben, but at this point I think we have to admit that Eli has indeed surpassed him - and I admitted as much, unsolicited even, to a few of my Giant fan friends just this week. He just had a monster year passing out of the pocket of which Ben most likely is not capable. Like his brother, he simply throws a better pure ball than our guy does.

That being said - I wouldn't trade Ben for anyone because he has been fabulous this past eight years, hiccups, brain farts, pump fakes, sacks, rape allegations and motorcycle wrecks notwithstanding. I still wouldn't give him up for anyone. He's not a pure pocket passer like Eli is, but that doesn't mean that he isn't great. He's just different. Eli may be better, but not by much.

StainlessStill
02-20-2012, 05:04 PM
I don't get why it's lucky for an offensive player to recover a fumble but it's a good heads-up play when a defensive guy recovers one. One bounced right to a Giant...but the Chris Snee recovery was simply a good play by him.

No one said it isn't a good heads up play when a defensive player creates and recovers a turnover (our team obviously made a style out of it.) I'm not taking anything away from players pouncing on the ball regardless of who it is. It is indeed a heads up play, one that saves your football team from disaster. That said, when you play the percentages, when the ball hits the ground 3 times, let alone once, you're bound to lose at least one, maybe two.

My point is, is that those fumbles could have EASILY bounced right to a Patriot and a Patriot defender could of easily recovered one. That's where the luck comes in becomes more times than not, putting the ball on the ground 3 times is a recipe for disaster but yes, all heads up plays by the person making the recovery whether it be an offensive or defensive player. If the Patriots recover just ONE of those fumbles, the Pats go onto win their 4th ring.

pete74
02-20-2012, 06:12 PM
i would say there as even as 2 QB's can get. it took Eli longer to come on but he is now playing at a higher level then Ben. hopefully next year Ben shows them all up

Millers the sh!t
02-21-2012, 12:35 AM
And with all that they managed 19 points against the last place defense in the league. Sounds like they need to change OC.:rofl:


Ha ha ha ha you're so funny!!! :applaudit::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::ro fl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl ::rofl::rofl::rofl:

It's almost as funny as Tebow putting up 29 points on a first place defense. :coffee:

Not sure what ur point is supposed to be... Giants were 9th in the league in scoring. About 4.5 points more per game than Pit. That's means You can turn at least 1 of our FG's and turn it into a TD every game of the season. That translates into a 13-3 season with a bye. Or a game that never would have went to OT week one in the playoffs.

lloydwoodson
02-21-2012, 12:38 AM
Every time I watch a game I feel that the Steelers have a chance no matter how much they are down because Ben is so incredibly clutch. There is no qb I would rather have in the 4th quarter and I think that counts for a lot.

Millers the sh!t
02-21-2012, 01:00 AM
Every time I watch a game I feel that the Steelers have a chance no matter how much they are down because Ben is so incredibly clutch. There is no qb I would rather have in the 4th quarter and I think that counts for a lot.

I hear what ur saying. I just wish Pit can get drives going in all quarters that end with points. It seems like they start real hot then burn out in the 2nd 3rd 1/4's then pick it up again in the 4th. I really really hope Haley can get these guys going in 3-4 1/4's of the game Then we'd be the hands down best team in the league.

steelerchad
02-21-2012, 09:16 AM
Yes he has by two Super Bowl MVP Awards.

There is not a top five quarterback list in the NFL- there is a top four list and it goes in no particular order: D. Brees, T. Brady, P. Manning, and A. Rodgers. People can debate the fifth all day but no one in their right mind would debate those four. Outside of that I'm not sure if it matters who is better than whom. I think there will be an obvious fifth emerge next year and I think it will be either Matt Stafford or Cam Newton. They both had monster years last year and Newton was a rookie.

Although I agree with your top 4. I would say to this point, Ben is the front runner for #5. Eli closed the gap this year at #6. Before this last season, I don't think anyone would have had Eli ahead of Ben.
I'll round out my top 15 for you.

#7- Romo
#8- Rivers
#9- Stafford
#10- Shaub
#11- Ryan
#12- Flacco
#13- Cutler
#14- Newton
#15- Dalton

I don't give Cam or Dalton credit for top 12 until they do it a second time.

LayingTheWoodley56
02-21-2012, 09:21 AM
Although I agree with your top 4. I would say to this point, Ben is the front runner for #5. Eli closed the gap this year at #6. Before this last season, I don't think anyone would have had Eli ahead of Ben.
I'll round out my top 15 for you.

#7- Romo
#8- Rivers
#9- Stafford
#10- Shaub
#11- Ryan
#12- Flacco
#13- Cutler
#14- Newton
#15- Dalton

I don't give Cam or Dalton credit for top 12 until they do it a second time.

Dalton maybe, but I think Cam is too much of a physical specimen to not be the real deal. I'd have to put Cutler above Flacco here too, and possibly also Ryan. I know he's a jerk, but the guy can play.

madtowndrunkard
02-21-2012, 09:48 AM
I'd say "no".... but here is why:


Eli is more efficient...I think he's a smarter QB. Eli was put in a position to win those SB's because of NY's great front 4 and huge plays by his WR's. If Eli needed to put the team on his back and carry them to victory I don't see it happening. Eli is not the QB who can over come a team collapse or even over coming his own mistakes and carry the team to victory...with any consistency anyway. I think you know what you get with Eli. Ben is a bit like Brett Favre or John Elway.

I see Ben as that kind of QB. Yea he's not as accurate, he's not as smart, he's a bit of a street baller, but Ben has guts like no other. Ben can throw 3 picks and then forget about it and win the game on the final drive. Ben can break tackles and make something out of nothing...he does it every week. When the game is on the line, I'd rather have Ben. Believe me there are things about Ben that drive me nuts...he's not a complete QB IMO...and he's cost us some wins that we really should have had. He's got personality flaws as well.

Part of it is the excitement of watching someone play the game as reckless as Ben. It's not pretty...but boy is it exciting. Favre built a legacy on that kind of game. Everyone loved to watch Farve play because of his reckless fervor. It might not have been the best way, but it was the most exciting way. You'd much rather watch a race with lots of crashes...then a clean one.

Eli is the guy who hits for average and gets on base by using sound mechanics. Ben is the guy who swings for the fences and runs down the catcher to score the winning run. Both styles have their place..and both styles can win titles. But when you are down 1-0 in the 9th inning... its' usually the long ball or big play that wins the game...and that is were Ben excels. His competitive drive is 2nd to none.

Ricco Suavez
02-21-2012, 11:13 AM
Ha ha ha ha you're so funny!!! :applaudit::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::ro fl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl ::rofl::rofl::rofl:

It's almost as funny as Tebow putting up 29 points on a first place defense. :coffee:

Not sure what ur point is supposed to be... Giants were 9th in the league in scoring. About 4.5 points more per game than Pit. That's means You can turn at least 1 of our FG's and turn it into a TD every game of the season. That translates into a 13-3 season with a bye. Or a game that never would have went to OT week one in the playoffs.

I stated facts about the Giants Superbowl not their season. If they do not match what you thought it should of been then I cannot do anything but post the fact. Here is another fact for you Eli and the Giants are credited with a more balanced offense then the Steelers, running more but its simply not true this year. Eli passed by Pct. more than Brady did in their offense. I believe it is about 68.9% vs 68.8 pct I could be wrong on the exact number but i have researched the numbers once already this year and will be glad to do it again.

Edit: Eli had 589 pass attempts to 411 rushing attempts for the regular season for a pass pct of 58.9% not 68.9
Brady had 611 pass attempts and 438 rush attempts for the regular season for a pass pct of 58.2%.
The pass happy Steelers had 539 pass attempts to 434 rushes for a pct of 55.4