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View Full Version : ESPN.com poll right now says just 53% of SN thinks Hines is a Hall of Famer


LayingTheWoodley56
03-01-2012, 09:16 AM
How is that possible? I understand there's a logjam of wide receivers waiting to get in, but there is no way that Hines doesn't have the credentials to be an HOF player. Let's see:

- One of only 8 players with 1,000 career catches
- More than 12,000 receiving yards
- The incredible streak of 186 straight games with a reception
- 76 catches and 1,064 catches in 14 career postseason games, which included a Super Bowl MVP, two SB touchdowns, and an appearance in a third Super Bowl
- Holds just about every major Steeler receiving record, which is not exactly like being the Jaguars all-time leader
- And, most importantly...his BLOCKING! You know people, for whatever reason (possibly because he is an unpopular guy who is viewed as dirty outside of Pittsburgh) people have to be completely discounting that if they think he's not a HOF player. Being the best blocking receiver of all-time (on what was usually a running team, I might add) has to be a huge factor in his chances.

To those 47 percent who voted nay, all I can say is this: every single one of you would've loved it if Hines Ward was on your team these past 14 years.

Bayz101
03-01-2012, 09:37 AM
It's mainly because of his abilities. In his best years, he wasn't really a top 3 receiver due to the talent around the league (Chad Johnson, Terrell Owens, Randy Moss Etc.). Looking at his numbers and the 14 years he played for this team, it's obvious he's set to be a hall of famer, at least in my eyes it is. He wasn't as explosive and athletic as that of Moss and and Owens, and that's the only reason he's lacking. To be quite frank, look at where Owens and Moss are now. Owens is making less than 20% of what he made per game in the NFL catching in some side league, and Moss is at home.

Steel Peon
03-01-2012, 09:45 AM
And, most importantly...his BLOCKING!.............Being the best blocking receiver of all-time (on what was usually a running team, I might add) has to be a huge factor in his chances.

To those 47 percent who voted nay, all I can say is this: every single one of you would've loved it if Hines Ward was on your team these past 14 years.
Amen. No one earns (or helps earn) the tough yards like Hines, and it's the tough yards that win you championships.:thumbsup:

Bayz101
03-01-2012, 09:48 AM
Amen. No one earns (or helps earn) the tough yards like Hines, and it's the tough yards that win you championships.:thumbsup:

Exactly. I could be wrong, but Owens, Ochostinko and Moss lack championships. Regardless of there build and athleticism, they lack the rings.

LayingTheWoodley56
03-01-2012, 10:18 AM
That's a great point guys, and something I meant to mention in my original post. Moss left the league before Hines, with no rings (even if he is trying to come back. TO, no rings. Ochocinco, no rings. Does anyone see a pattern here? These diva receivers are the antithesis of what it takes to go all the way.

I'm sure many of those 47 percent would put Moss and TO in right away, just because Hines never brought the flash or diva-tendencies that those guys did, Moss and TO are more well-known. Goes to show you how brainless some sports "fans" are.

Bayz101
03-01-2012, 10:27 AM
That's a great point guys, and something I meant to mention in my original post. Moss left the league before Hines, with no rings (even if he is trying to come back. TO, no rings. Ochocinco, no rings. Does anyone see a pattern here? These diva receivers are the antithesis of what it takes to go all the way.

I'm sure many of those 47 percent would put Moss and TO in right away, just because Hines never brought the flash or diva-tendencies that those guys did, Moss and TO are more well-known. Goes to show you how brainless some sports "fans" are.

That's pretty much on the money. The hall of fame really is about a single man's play on the field, but I think the lack of Super Bowl's for some of these guy's should at least hinder their likelihood of making it.

Set-Man
03-01-2012, 12:10 PM
The only problem is that it is not only Steelers supporters that vote.
Hines has made a quite a few enemies by his monster blocks and is labeled by many as a dirty player.
Those emotions come out more than his qualifications which in my opinion make him a HOF'er.

Maybe in a few years from now, those negative emotions will be gone and people will vote on him by what he did. 1000 catches, SB MVP

Lokki
03-01-2012, 12:29 PM
The only problem is that it is not only Steelers supporters that vote.


This.

I'm sure Greenie has voted No quite a few times as well.

Bayz101
03-01-2012, 02:19 PM
Had to chime in a little bit more on this.

Hines is certainly a hall of famer in my mind. Calvin and Owens get open because their strong, tall and athletic. Hines Ward has always lacked speed, and he's not built nearly as well as those monster receivers. He got open because he's smart.

That's a hall of fame quality, if there ever was one.

truesteelerfan
03-01-2012, 02:20 PM
He is a lock IMO - maybe not first ballott as even guys like Cris Carter are still waiting...but he's in.

StainlessStill
03-01-2012, 02:40 PM
As of right now. NFL.com's poll:

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/2856/hineshofvote.png

tanda10506
03-01-2012, 04:17 PM
The only problem is that it is not only Steelers supporters that vote.
Hines has made a quite a few enemies by his monster blocks and is labeled by many as a dirty player.
Those emotions come out more than his qualifications which in my opinion make him a HOF'er.

Maybe in a few years from now, those negative emotions will be gone and people will vote on him by what he did. 1000 catches, SB MVP

http://i1244.photobucket.com/albums/gg562/chopperscfl/haters21.jpg

pancake
03-01-2012, 04:24 PM
it's at 54% now...

ricardisimo
03-01-2012, 04:27 PM
If you're wondering why: fantasy football. 'Nuff said.

RavenManiac
03-01-2012, 04:55 PM
Skip Bayless says definitively, yes.
Stephen A. Smith says definitively, no.
Mangenius sings praises but says, not sure.


http://espn.go.com/nfl/

Not sure how long clip will stay on site, but it is the middle small clip under the big main video window. Caption on clip: HOF for Ward?. Title of clip: The Fame Game.

I think he gets in for sure, but I think he will have to wait a few years. The current logjam is bad, plus as you guys have said, guys like Moss, Owens, etc might be eligible around the same time (I am not sure how long Ward will play from here, if at all).

tanda10506
03-01-2012, 05:05 PM
He'll get in without a doubt. SB MVP for one, that's not a lock, but it's huge. Plus he is the Steelers #1 WR of all time. That means he is the #1 WR of all time on the #1 team of all time. Sure media types and jealous opposing fans can make all the claims they want, fact is the Steelers are the most successful team in the NFL since the start, and Ward has about every WR record for the Steelers. You add on to that 3 SB appearances, 2 SB wins, and a SB MVP, he will get in without a doubt. Aside from the championships and all the rest, is there anybody who was thee best WR in any teams history that isn't in the HOF? I don't think so.

StainlessStill
03-01-2012, 05:19 PM
it's at 54% now...

NFL.com has it 64% as of right now as a YES to the Hall of Fame vote.

jjpro11
03-01-2012, 06:08 PM
Most of the guys who put up better numbers than him played in pass-happy offenses. It's amazing Hines put up the numbers he did while playing in a run first offense for the majority of his career. add in the fact he was as clutch as anyone, Super Bowl MVP (2 rings), best blocking WR ever... that's HOF worthy imo.. the fantasy football nerd ****s who don't want him in can all go to hell.

fujirama24
03-01-2012, 06:18 PM
These fan's have no idea what they are talking about. You can't just look at the numbers though they are really good. This guy was the best overall WR ever to play the game. He did it all Catch, Run, and even a pass or too at the begining of his career. He did everything they said he couldn't do. This guy is a HOF in my book, but with all the steeler haters out there who no's look at what Bettis is going through.

GMU Steeler
03-01-2012, 06:21 PM
I think outside of Ben, Hines is probably hte most hated player on this team for other teams' fans. He's "dirty", "cheap", etc. That sort of thing tends to cloud judgment. He's a 1000 yard catch guy and I think only seven other guys have that plus a two time champ and a one time SB MVP.

tony hipchest
03-01-2012, 06:24 PM
this poll is flawed.

im sure just about 100% of steelerfans think/know he is worthy of the hall of fame. but steelerfans are realists and also one of the most knowledgable fanbases in the league, which is why only 53% believe he will actually make it.

1. logjam at the position.
2. steeler bias and the need for their own wing in canton. (cowher, bettis, faneca, greene, and greenwood still need in)
3. knowing fines and sanctions will come down from the league offices if he actually makes it.

Bayz101
03-01-2012, 07:40 PM
We definitely need our own wing, lol.

tony hipchest
03-01-2012, 07:59 PM
one thing ive never seen pointed out is that hines ward went to as many super bowls as jerry rice and m. irvin. he won 1 less.

both were primary targets of their HOF qb and passing game w/in the 1st 5 years of their career (jerry was lucky enough to play for 2 HOF qb's in 1 of the leagues most prolific offense).

his mvp award was thank,s in part, to another wr throwing him the ball.

i dont think anybody will call him the greatest of all time, but he definitely did more with less (including an ACL or blazing wr speed or height.)

he blocked, passed, and ran the ball like no other.

RavenManiac
03-01-2012, 08:06 PM
Jerry Rice played in 4 SuperBowls.

3 with SF and 1 with Oakland.

tony hipchest
03-01-2012, 08:10 PM
Jerry Rice played in 4 SuperBowls.

3 with SF and 1 with Oakland.good call.

wasnt even thinking of his post SF career. (i guess the same will be said if ward plays for another team).

lipps83
03-01-2012, 09:18 PM
Hines Ward will not get in.

He was never rated higher than a 92 in Madden.

Bayz101
03-01-2012, 09:24 PM
Hines Ward will not get in.

He was never rated higher than a 92 in Madden.

:rofl:

lipps83
03-01-2012, 09:53 PM
This guy is a HOF in my book, but with all the steeler haters out there who no's look at what Bettis is going through.

What exactly is Bettis going through that makes you feel he is getting jilted?

60_MINUTES
03-01-2012, 10:30 PM
I dont think people really understand how great Ward really has been... the guy has some of the best numbers in history along with superbowl trophies and MVP's and everyone misses out on the single most important thing. Can you even imagine what kind of numbers Ward would have had people like Montana and young threw him the ball... Yes he had BEN for a few years now but for GOD sakes during some of his best years he had guys like Tommy Maddox, Kent Gram, Tee Carter, and of course the number one reason he should go to the HOF... he had Kordell Stewart for many years throwing him the ball... and to top it off we ran 60 to 40 during those years.... Are you kidding me ? Is there another receiever in the world that could put up numbers with those odds against him? One last thing as far as the speed is concerned... I watched him run away from Delango Hall of the falcons on a 60 yard play... I think Ward was much faster than people think...

by the way someone on here mentioned Chad Johnson as one of the top WR in the game... Yes T.O and Moss I will give you but Johnson I dont think so...

One final point.. Ward has the Superbowls and the MVP... Mike Irvin doesnt have wards numbers and he was first ballot... If Irvin gets first Ballot with his numbers cause he has 3 SB... then Ward should damn sure get in some time down the road with his numbers smoking Mikes in every category and Ward has 2 SB and going to 3 with MVP on top of that.... Its a no brainer guys... Ward should get in with in the first 5 years of so of being on the ticket

RavenManiac
03-02-2012, 12:48 AM
I'll start by saying that, despite my handle and favorite team, I am not a Ward-hater. I think the guy plays the game exactly the way it should be played and then some. I also think he deserves the HoF, clearly. I am not sure about first ballot. And frankly I think Irvin on first ballot was a stretch/mistake. But (how stat nerds could argue)...

The argument why Irvin gets in before Ward would focus primarily on two things: 1) they played in different eras, and passing/receiving stats were harder to come by 10 years prior, and 2) Irvin played 58 less games.

As for point 1). You mentioned Troy Aikman, but have you looked at Aikman's stats? He averaged less than 200 yards per game for his career. Tomzcak/Stewart averaged about the same in 1999. Aikman threw for more than 3000 yards only 5 times in 12 seasons, and never more than 3445. In other words, Joe Flacco (or Flunko around here), has already thrown for more yards in a season than Troy's best year three times (of his 4 years). And, contrary to my handle and team, I think Flacco is very average. Aikman also only threw for 20+ TDs one season (check his stats they are crazy-mediocre by today's standards). Part of this fact is the era difference and part is that Emmitt got a ton of touches/yards.

On the other hand, in 2002, Maddox/Stewart combined for 4000 yards. Actually Roethlisberger's first two years are closer to Aikman's average type of games, while after that, Ben started putting up stats that were like Aikman's best years, and in a couple years BR absolutely crushed Aikman's best.

Also, Ward's best year in terms of yardage (2002), 1329 yards, saw Burress put up a similar 1325 (on 34 less catches). The year before in 2001, when Ward put up 1003, Burress put up 1008 (on 28 less catches). Those were two of Ward's better (Pro-Bowl) years.

Irvin on the other hand, shared yards with Harper and Novacek but was always the clear statistical leader (#1).

As for point 2). Irvin averaged 4.7 Rec for 74.9 Yards and .409 TDs per game. Ward averaged 4.6 Rec for 55.7 and .392 TDs per game. The difference in per game yards is significantly large. Irvin averaged 34.4% more yards per game over his career.

Of course longevity can be a double edged sword. In theory it is a good thing but in terms of career totals it can be viewed somewhat as a negative. In other words, player A's best/peak years are better but Player B makes up for it with longevity.

If you look at PFR's AV statistics (which are clearly subjective, but also respected) you can see the quality vs quantity difference. Irvin has 5 years where he blows Ward's best year out of the water with AV's of: 15, 17, 17, 18, 19, to Ward's best year of 12.


Bottomlines for the argument would be: the SuperBowls are a wash. Irvin had better stats in his best seasons. Ward lasted longer/stayed healthier.

Again, I am playing Devil's advocate. I think Ward's run blocking alone, which does not show up in any form in any statsheet is worth an extra 3-4k yards to his team over his career (or more). His lockerroom/sideline/huddle leadership/attitude also, I believe, crushes Irvin's. Irvin also was allowed to push off in his era which mitigates some of the era difference.

I think Irvin shouldn't have been a first balloter, and I think Ward should get in. When? I have no idea, considering the logjam, but he deserves the induction. I also can see how people will not conclude that based on Irvin, Ward deserves the same result.

tony hipchest
03-02-2012, 01:16 AM
phenominal post by the ravenfan. :applaudit:

i am sad to say i have witnesed one of our very own steelerfans here hate on hines 100X worse than that while paying absolutely no respect.

kudos. i may not like ray lewis, but i am wise nough to know he will go into canton 1st ballot.

(your best point was that the cowboys were far from being a passing team. aikman just had sick accuracy)

Bayz101
03-02-2012, 01:24 AM
I'll start by saying that, despite my handle and favorite team, I am not a Ward-hater. I think the guy plays the game exactly the way it should be played and then some. I also think he deserves the HoF, clearly. I am not sure about first ballot. And frankly I think Irvin on first ballot was a stretch/mistake. But (how stat nerds could argue)...

The argument why Irvin gets in before Ward would focus primarily on two things: 1) they played in different eras, and passing/receiving stats were harder to come by 10 years prior, and 2) Irvin played 58 less games.

As for point 1). You mentioned Troy Aikman, but have you looked at Aikman's stats? He averaged less than 200 yards per game for his career. Tomzcak/Stewart averaged about the same in 1999. Aikman threw for more than 3000 yards only 5 times in 12 seasons, and never more than 3445. In other words, Joe Flacco (or Flunko around here), has already thrown for more yards in a season than Troy's best year three times (of his 4 years). And, contrary to my handle and team, I think Flacco is very average. Aikman also only threw for 20+ TDs one season (check his stats they are crazy-mediocre by today's standards). Part of this fact is the era difference and part is that Emmitt got a ton of touches/yards.

On the other hand, in 2002, Maddox/Stewart combined for 4000 yards. Actually Roethlisberger's first two years are closer to Aikman's average type of games, while after that, Ben started putting up stats that were like Aikman's best years, and in a couple years BR absolutely crushed Aikman's best.

Also, Ward's best year in terms of yardage (2002), 1329 yards, saw Burress put up a similar 1325 (on 34 less catches). The year before in 2001, when Ward put up 1003, Burress put up 1008 (on 28 less catches). Those were two of Ward's better (Pro-Bowl) years.

Irvin on the other hand, shared yards with Harper and Novacek but was always the clear statistical leader (#1).

As for point 2). Irvin averaged 4.7 Rec for 74.9 Yards and .409 TDs per game. Ward averaged 4.6 Rec for 55.7 and .392 TDs per game. The difference in per game yards is significantly large. Irvin averaged 34.4% more yards per game over his career.

Of course longevity can be a double edged sword. In theory it is a good thing but in terms of career totals it can be viewed somewhat as a negative. In other words, player A's best/peak years are better but Player B makes up for it with longevity.

If you look at PFR's AV statistics (which are clearly subjective, but also respected) you can see the quality vs quantity difference. Irvin has 5 years where he blows Ward's best year out of the water with AV's of: 15, 17, 17, 18, 19, to Ward's best year of 12.


Bottomlines for the argument would be: the SuperBowls are a wash. Irvin had better stats in his best seasons. Ward lasted longer/stayed healthier.

Again, I am playing Devil's advocate. I think Ward's run blocking alone, which does not show up in any form in any statsheet is worth an extra 3-4k yards to his team over his career (or more). His lockerroom/sideline/huddle leadership/attitude also, I believe, crushes Irvin's. Irvin also was allowed to push off in his era which mitigates some of the era difference.

I think Irvin shouldn't have been a first balloter, and I think Ward should get in. When? I have no idea, considering the logjam, but he deserves the induction. I also can see how people will not conclude that based on Irvin, Ward deserves the same result.

What a phenomenal post...I honestly have trouble not agreeing with it.

ricardisimo
03-02-2012, 02:56 AM
He'll get in without a doubt. SB MVP for one, that's not a lock, but it's huge. Plus he is the Steelers #1 WR of all time. That means he is the #1 WR of all time on the #1 team of all time. Sure media types and jealous opposing fans can make all the claims they want, fact is the Steelers are the most successful team in the NFL since the start, and Ward has about every WR record for the Steelers. You add on to that 3 SB appearances, 2 SB wins, and a SB MVP, he will get in without a doubt. Aside from the championships and all the rest, is there anybody who was thee best WR in any teams history that isn't in the HOF? I don't think so.
Yes, including some from the current afore-mentioned logjam. Andre Reed, Tim Brown and Cris Carter come to mind. I doubt there's a better Bills, Raiders or Vikings wide receiver than those guys.

I strongly suspect that right about the time Hines (and yes, Moss and Owens, etc.) become eligible for consideration, it will become way too embarrassing to the Hall not to take some sort of action to speed some of these receivers in. They'll start voting them into the HoF in pairs for a few years, if nothing else. I can't see Hines waiting more than three years.

DanRooney
03-02-2012, 03:52 AM
I've been the biggest Hines basher without a doubt on this board but he's without a doubt a HOFer.

IowaSteeler927
03-02-2012, 03:52 AM
I honestly think the reason some 47% of those polled don't think he should be in the HOF is because they loathe his playing style. We've heard all the garbage fans of other teams spew out about him. Calling him dirty, and questioning his character. They don't like it that a receiver goes out and intimidates defensive players. They don't like it when a DB gets blown up, or a linebacker gets his jaw broke.

I do think part of it is that he isn't the diva type #1 receiver that puts up monster stats but I think the main reason for the negative votes is because of the things I have already mentioned. One person on here said they'd love it if Ward played for their teams and that's completely and utterly correct. They'd sing his praises and defend him with fervor. The Steelers play old school football though. They still get physical, they still intimidate, and while our fanbase loves it other fanbases hate our style of play because it's not the 50 point a game passing offenses with a complete lack of defense.

Hines is a definite Hall of Famer that's the bottom line. Never has there been a more selfless receiver than Hines Ward. The guy is a great teammate, a motivator, a teacher, and most of all a great player. He was the total package, he selflessly blocked, and made big plays when our team needed them the most.