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BlackNGold203
07-14-2006, 10:05 AM
Israel starting a new Mid East war?????

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/14/mideast/index.html

:boxing: :boxing: :boxing:

83-Steelers-43
07-14-2006, 10:07 AM
I wouldn't mind watching Israel blow up a few plants in Syria and Iran.

CAH
07-14-2006, 10:15 AM
I'm backing Israel, all the way.

Big D
07-14-2006, 10:21 AM
I wonder how long it will take bush to get us involved in this war

83-Steelers-43
07-14-2006, 10:22 AM
I wonder how long it will take bush to get us involved in this war

I guess a good bit of it depends on if that joke we have all come to love called the UN actually decides to step up to the plate for once and do their jobs?

Big D
07-14-2006, 10:27 AM
I guess a good bit of it depends on if that joke we have all come to love called the UN actually decides to step up to the plate for once and do their jobs?
whats concerning though is that we might have to go into korea and with the troops in afgahanistan and iraq i think it would leave us really spread thin

83-Steelers-43
07-14-2006, 10:30 AM
whats concerning though is that we might have to go into korea and with the troops in afgahanistan and iraq i think it would leave us really spread thin

Personally, I don't see us going into N. Korea while still being in Iraq and Afghanistan. You are correct, we are already spread thin. I'm hoping the heat N. Korea is taking from other countries will bring them to their senses and they will realize they stand no chance. Also, if it comes to war what's the problem with sending over a few bombers and fighter planes and bomb the living hell out of their plants? Why send troops? Maybe it just sounds too easy? I don't know. Just putting the idea out there if it comes to that.

Eitherway, I don't see us sending troops over to N. Korea anytime soon.

Jeremy
07-14-2006, 10:33 AM
It's time Isreal stood on it's own two feet without the US sending them money and technology. If they want to fight a war, let them do it themselves.

Big D
07-14-2006, 10:35 AM
with all these wars you kinda have to begin to wonder if this could be the begining of world war 3

83-Steelers-43
07-14-2006, 10:36 AM
It's time Isreal stood on it's own two feet without the US sending them money and technology. If they want to fight a war, let them do it themselves.

I agree to a degree. I'm personally tired of us putting our necks on the line for Israel. But, now that we are considered allies I'm not exactly sure how good it will look on us if we decide to not back a supposed ally.

83-Steelers-43
07-14-2006, 10:39 AM
with all these wars you kinda have to begin to wonder if this could be the begining of world war 3

I'm sure some will disagree, but the situation that is currently taking place in the middle-east is reason enough to believe that this could easily escalate into a WW. Very hairy situation in that region of the world.

Livinginthe past
07-14-2006, 11:32 AM
Thanks for posting this B&G203,

I have been meaning to post something about this myself recently but haven't got around to it.

There are alot of people who vehemently disagree with the methods Israel are currently using against the civilian population of the Gaza strip and I am one of them.

The Israel Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, has waged a vicious psychological campaign in retaliation for the abduction of a single Israeli soldier.

Now some people here might agree with the zero tolerance policy shown here, but I think it is disgraceful that the UN have not done more to prevent the terror inducing policies of the Israeli army.

Among their latest strategies is the frequent (up to 7 times daily), night time, sonic-booming of the civilian population - the idea is to have the population unravel pschologically - this includes total innocents and children.

Olmert commented on this episode with great humour - remarking that he hoped not many would sleep in Gaza peacefully again.

It seems natural enough to side with a country that has been an ally to the more democratic countries over the last 20 years, but this is the action of a despicable individual and the UN needs to do something before it is too late.

A personal article detailing the effects of the terror tactics.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0607/S00027.htm

NM

augustashark
07-14-2006, 02:08 PM
Thanks for posting this B&G203,

I have been meaning to post something about this myself recently but haven't got around to it.

There are alot of people who vehemently disagree with the methods Israel are currently using against the civilian population of the Gaza strip and I am one of them.

The Israel Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, has waged a vicious psychological campaign in retaliation for the abduction of a single Israeli soldier.

Now some people here might agree with the zero tolerance policy shown here, but I think it is disgraceful that the UN have not done more to prevent the terror inducing policies of the Israeli army.

Among their latest strategies is the frequent (up to 7 times daily), night time, sonic-booming of the civilian population - the idea is to have the population unravel pschologically - this includes total innocents and children.

Olmert commented on this episode with great humour - remarking that he hoped not many would sleep in Gaza peacefully again.

It seems natural enough to side with a country that has been an ally to the more democratic countries over the last 20 years, but this is the action of a despicable individual and the UN needs to do something before it is too late.

A personal article detailing the effects of the terror tactics.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0607/S00027.htm

NM


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1908671.stm

Litp, since this is from your national news, maybe you will understand a little more about this enemy. "suicide bombing" yea, I can see where you would think that Israel are the true terroists! You keep your faith in the good old UN! Oh yea, Hezbollah is not despicable, its the PM of Israel! "zero tolerance" what the hell are you talking about! So all of the suicide bombers that walk into a pizza shop and or store and kill 20 or 30 Israeli's is "zero tolerance", thats just plain stupid!

Hawk Believer
07-14-2006, 02:37 PM
We've made our bed with Israel and we need to lie in it. To withdraw support at this point would be akin to the cut and run tactics of Reagan in Beirut or Clinton in Somalia; it would provide a victory for extremist opponents. But I do think we need to exert our power to reform Israeli-American policies so there is more stability in the region.

If we let Isreal be destoyed, there is a possibility civilization as we know it would end. There is a belief that Israel has informed the nuclear powers of the world that, if certain of imminant destruction, Israel will launch its nukes at all the major cities of those countries. Including the US. There is a name for this that is biblical in orgin (the something option of principle). The idea behind it is that Israel says if they are going down, everyone elses is going down with them. So its in all of our interests to make sure they don't go down.

I don't agree with what Israel is doing to the Lebanese government. By destabilizing the quasi-reasonable government of Lebanon while going after Hezbollah, they are destroying any possibility of having a stable border to the north. Now the government will either have no power or will be forced to side with Hezbollah. So begins another occupation with no end in site....

BlackNGold203
07-14-2006, 02:59 PM
If we let Isreal be destoyed, there is a possibility civilization as we know it would end. There is a belief that Israel has informed the nuclear powers of the world that, if certain of imminant destruction, Israel will launch its nukes at all the major cities of those countries. Including the US. There is a name for this that is biblical in orgin (the something option of principle). The idea behind it is that Israel says if they are going down, everyone elses is going down with them. So its in all of our interests to make sure they don't go down.

i have read of this..and have every reason to believe its true....Israel would do this....

augustashark
07-14-2006, 03:02 PM
We've made our bed with Israel and we need to lie in it. To withdraw support at this point would be akin to the cut and run tactics of Reagan in Beirut or Clinton in Somalia; it would provide a victory for extremist opponents. But I do think we need to exert our power to reform Israeli-American policies so there is more stability in the region.

If we let Isreal be destoyed, there is a possibility civilization as we know it would end. There is a belief that Israel has informed the nuclear powers of the world that, if certain of imminant destruction, Israel will launch its nukes at all the major cities of those countries. Including the US. There is a name for this that is biblical in orgin (the something option of principle). The idea behind it is that Israel says if they are going down, everyone elses is going down with them. So its in all of our interests to make sure they don't go down.

I don't agree with what Israel is doing to the Lebanese government. By destabilizing the quasi-reasonable government of Lebanon while going after Hezbollah, they are destroying any possibility of having a stable border to the north. Now the government will either have no power or will be forced to side with Hezbollah. So begins another occupation with no end in site....


Who are you kidding, Hezbollah is the government of Lebanon!!

Hawk Believer
07-14-2006, 03:14 PM
Who are you kidding, Hezbollah is the government of Lebanon!!
If Hezbollah ran the government than the Lebanese government would not have kicked the Syrian Army out of their country last year. This was a huge step towards more stable relations with Israel. Syria is among the few countries in the world that most would agree uses state funds to sponsor terrorists. How long do you think it will be now before Syria's army is back fighting Isrealis on the norther border?

So yeah, I think its bad policy to eliminate any possibility of maintaining a diplomatic relationship with Hariri's Future Movement party that currently holds power in Lebanon. Or at least they did 2 days ago. I just can't imagine another party that would be more reasonable popping up now.

MasterOfPuppets
07-14-2006, 03:25 PM
well...if hezbollah is funded by syria,doesn't that kinda make them syria's army?

augustashark
07-14-2006, 03:33 PM
If Hezbollah ran the government than the Lebanese government would not have kicked the Syrian Army out of their country last year. This was a huge step towards more stable relations with Israel. Syria is among the few countries in the world that most would agree uses state funds to sponsor terrorists. How long do you think it will be now before Syria's army is back fighting Isrealis on the norther border?

So yeah, I think its bad policy to eliminate any possibility of maintaining a diplomatic relationship with Hariri's Future Movement party that currently holds power in Lebanon. Or at least they did 2 days ago. I just can't imagine another party that would be more reasonable popping up now.


It's all about strategy my friend. I'm not saying that I completly disagree with you. Hezbollah knew how Israel would react! I'm afraid to say that Syria, Iran and yes even al qaeda will be on the northern border fighting the "Infidels"!

CAH
07-14-2006, 05:19 PM
Israel has constantly taken crap from their wonderful neighbors and they respond every time. They wanted to just blast them but America has always held Israel back but this time it was the straw that broke the camel's back and Israel is finally smacking back in a big way.

How can anyone not know what Israel has had to endure? It is their home and their lives that depend on them. Those damned terrorist countries want to wipe Israel off the map and the U.N. does nothing. Get 'em good, Israel.

silver & black
07-14-2006, 05:46 PM
Thanks for posting this B&G203,

I have been meaning to post something about this myself recently but haven't got around to it.

There are alot of people who vehemently disagree with the methods Israel are currently using against the civilian population of the Gaza strip and I am one of them.

The Israel Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, has waged a vicious psychological campaign in retaliation for the abduction of a single Israeli soldier.

Now some people here might agree with the zero tolerance policy shown here, but I think it is disgraceful that the UN have not done more to prevent the terror inducing policies of the Israeli army.

Among their latest strategies is the frequent (up to 7 times daily), night time, sonic-booming of the civilian population - the idea is to have the population unravel pschologically - this includes total innocents and children.

Olmert commented on this episode with great humour - remarking that he hoped not many would sleep in Gaza peacefully again.

It seems natural enough to side with a country that has been an ally to the more democratic countries over the last 20 years, but this is the action of a despicable individual and the UN needs to do something before it is too late.

A personal article detailing the effects of the terror tactics.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0607/S00027.htm

NM
In case you hadn't noticed, the UN doesn't do anything. For all intents and purposes, they are a non entity. The UN should be disbanded... it is truly worthless.

silver & black
07-14-2006, 05:52 PM
We've made our bed with Israel and we need to lie in it. To withdraw support at this point would be akin to the cut and run tactics of Reagan in Beirut or Clinton in Somalia; it would provide a victory for extremist opponents. But I do think we need to exert our power to reform Israeli-American policies so there is more stability in the region.

If we let Isreal be destoyed, there is a possibility civilization as we know it would end. There is a belief that Israel has informed the nuclear powers of the world that, if certain of imminant destruction, Israel will launch its nukes at all the major cities of those countries. Including the US. There is a name for this that is biblical in orgin (the something option of principle). The idea behind it is that Israel says if they are going down, everyone elses is going down with them. So its in all of our interests to make sure they don't go down.

I don't agree with what Israel is doing to the Lebanese government. By destabilizing the quasi-reasonable government of Lebanon while going after Hezbollah, they are destroying any possibility of having a stable border to the north. Now the government will either have no power or will be forced to side with Hezbollah. So begins another occupation with no end in site....
I agree with you. We are stuck with having to support Israel... like it or not. Israel is like an incurable disease... the best you can hope for is medication that will ease the pain and keep it at bay.

MasterOfPuppets
07-14-2006, 07:39 PM
Thanks for posting this B&G203,

I have been meaning to post something about this myself recently but haven't got around to it.

There are alot of people who vehemently disagree with the methods Israel are currently using against the civilian population of the Gaza strip and I am one of them.
but your ok with isreali civilians enduring non stop rocket attacks and suicide bombings?

The Israel Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, has waged a vicious psychological campaign in retaliation for the abduction of a single Israeli soldier.


Now some people here might agree with the zero tolerance policy shown here, but I think it is disgraceful that the UN have not done more to prevent the terror inducing policies of the Israeli army.
so terrorist should be tolerated? how would you like it if rockets started raining down on your country or better yet,the city in which you live? didn't the nazi's do something similiar?


Among their latest strategies is the frequent (up to 7 times daily), night time, sonic-booming of the civilian population - the idea is to have the population unravel pschologically - this includes total innocents and children.
hmmm...lets see...sonic boom...rockets exploding...sonic boom...suicide bombing at the market... i tend to think the sonic booms aren't quiet as bad for your health. :rolleyes:

Olmert commented on this episode with great humour - remarking that he hoped not many would sleep in Gaza peacefully again.

It seems natural enough to side with a country that has been an ally to the more democratic countries over the last 20 years, but this is the action of a despicable individual and the UN needs to do something before it is too late.
the U.N....:rofl: ...when is the last time the U.N. has ever done anything...darfur??? :huh: ...nope not there.

A personal article detailing the effects of the terror tactics.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0607/S00027.htm

NM
isreal does have a right to defend itself.

Hawk Believer
07-14-2006, 09:47 PM
well...if hezbollah is funded by syria,doesn't that kinda make them syria's army?
Not really. Syria had a "traditional" uniformed army that ran operations in southern Lebabnon. Helzbollah's fighters are more paramilitary. Syria funded Hezbollah but Hezbollah is not beholden to any nation as far as I know.

I guess you could compare them to the Israeli army. We probably fund them more than Syria funds Hezbollah. But is Israel the US's army? No way, their allegiance is to their nation first. But are we responsible for what Isreal does because we fund them? Partially, sure.

Hawk Believer
07-14-2006, 10:09 PM
i have read of this..and have every reason to believe its true....Israel would do this....
The name of the strategy came to me today... It's called the Samson Option, alluding to when Samson pulling the temple down on his enemies and himself when it was clear he could not win the fight (damn those women and their haircutting ways).

So I think in the cold war days, Isreal always had a few nukes pointed at the USSR. All they had to do was launch into the Soviet Union and they launch at us, we launch at them, game over.

Its a terrible thing to think about. I assume we would do the same thing though if in the same situation.

pitt
07-14-2006, 11:25 PM
I back Israel 100%.

Livinginthe past
07-15-2006, 10:41 AM
In case you hadn't noticed, the UN doesn't do anything. For all intents and purposes, they are a non entity. The UN should be disbanded... it is truly worthless.

I agree 100% - the UN has a reputation for being horribly indecisive.

It was more in hope than expectation that I made the comment about UN intervention - this is the type of situation it was brought into existence for.

NM

Livinginthe past
07-15-2006, 10:54 AM
isreal does have a right to defend itself.

Yes Israel has the right to defend itself.

But these tactics are aimed at the civilian population, and unless you are one of these people who thinks every Muslim is a potential terrorist it is utterly wrong that they should be targetted.

The fact of the matter is that certain prominent members of the Israeli government have no intention of granting Palestine an equitable share of land for its people, and any excuse for killing and terrorising Palestines is a good one.

You think that 'sonic booming' is less or more likely to breed resentment amongst the law abiding population?

NM

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-15-2006, 12:28 PM
Yes Israel has the right to defend itself.

But these tactics are aimed at the civilian population, and unless you are one of these people who thinks every Muslim is a potential terrorist it is utterly wrong that they should be targetted.

The fact of the matter is that certain prominent members of the Israeli government have no intention of granting Palestine an equitable share of land for its people, and any excuse for killing and terrorising Palestines is a good one.

You think that 'sonic booming' is less or more likely to breed resentment amongst the law abiding population?

NM


I am still not clear how you can condemn Israel for making loud "noises" that "disturb and are aimed at the civilian population"...but still have not quantified these acts against the "suicide bombings" against the Israeli population. I can only assume that if Israel were to train their children that there is a special place in "heaven" for those who strap explosives to their bodies and blow themselves and INNOCENT WOMEN & CHILDREN into small bloody bits...that it would be a much better solution.

And just so I may be aware of how much you know of the history of the middle east...could you enlighten me as to "when" there was was an independent state called “Palestine” whose majority residents were Moslem “Palestinians”?

Isnt it true that until the defeat of the Ottoman (Turkish) Empire in World War I, there wasnt even a geopolitical entity called “Palestine,” and also that no Arab nation has ever set historical roots on this soil or made a national claim to the territory other than the Jews.

Between the time that the Jews were expulsed by the Romans in the year 70 A.D. and the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in 1918, Israel (Palestine) was occupied by fourteen conquerors over thirteen centuries, until in 1948 the Jews once again declared their independence. In fact, the whole concept of a Palastinian state was unknown before the 20th century

Hawk Believer
07-15-2006, 12:38 PM
I back Israel 100%.
I also agree Israel needs to defend itself. But to back them 100% would be counter to our own countries interest. Unless you support Isreali espionage in the US...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/05/AR2005100501608_pf.html
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0496/9604014.htm

CAH
07-15-2006, 01:15 PM
I also agree Israel needs to defend itself. But to back them 100% would be counter to our own countries interest. Unless you support Isreali espionage in the US...

That's very funny. Every country has spies in every country. It's the name of the game.

Livinginthe past
07-15-2006, 01:23 PM
I am still not clear how you can condemn Israel for making loud "noises" that "disturb and are aimed at the civilian population"...but still have not quantified these acts against the "suicide bombings" against the Israeli population. I can only assume that if Israel were to train their children that there is a special place in "heaven" for those who strap explosives to their bodies and blow themselves and INNOCENT WOMEN & CHILDREN into small bloody bits...that it would be a much better solution.

Two wrongs don't make a right and your playing down of the sonic booming tactics as merely 'noise' doesnt make it any less of civil liberties crime.

Of course I do not endorse the suicide bombings, but there is a great deal of differnce between the actions of a terrorist organisation and State sponsored terror tactics.

I cannot understand people who think that this type of escalation in hostilities is the way to resolve the situation - these latest tactics will only ensure that more and more Palestinian children will be recruitment material for trrorist organisations - therefore killing more Israeli innocents.

And just so I may be aware of how much you know of the history of the middle east...could you enlighten me as to "when" there was was an independent state called ?Palestine? whose majority residents were Moslem ?Palestinians??

Isnt it true that until the defeat of the Ottoman (Turkish) Empire in World War I, there wasnt even a geopolitical entity called ?Palestine,? and also that no Arab nation has ever set historical roots on this soil or made a national claim to the territory other than the Jews.

Between the time that the Jews were expulsed by the Romans in the year 70 A.D. and the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in 1918, Israel (Palestine) was occupied by fourteen conquerors over thirteen centuries, until in 1948 the Jews once again declared their independence. In fact, the whole concept of a Palastinian state was unknown before the 20th century

Are you suggesting that the Muslim population are trespassing in Palestine?

Its all very well reciting the history of the Palestine region, but it doesn't help resolve the situation at hand - quoting interesting facts about the Ottoman Empire at these people will not make them disappear.

The fact is, these people think of that area as their home and they are being treated like a nation of POW's - its not surprise to me that they take the desperate option of suicide bombings - there situation is a hopeless one.

This is clearly case a large state bullying a group of displaced people, not a million miles away from the Kurds in Iraq.

NM

CAH
07-15-2006, 01:28 PM
Yes Israel has the right to defend itself.

But these tactics are aimed at the civilian population, and unless you are one of these people who thinks every Muslim is a potential terrorist it is utterly wrong that they should be targetted.

The fact of the matter is that certain prominent members of the Israeli government have no intention of granting Palestine an equitable share of land for its people, and any excuse for killing and terrorising Palestines is a good one.

You think that 'sonic booming' is less or more likely to breed resentment amongst the law abiding population?

NM
Israel got the Gaza Strip and the West Bank after that war when they were attacked by 6 countries. They returned all the land they won except the Gaza Strip and the West Bank b/c their enemies were using that territory as a great jumping off point to kill Israelis.

When they finally gave in this past year and gave it to those crumbs to show their desire to get along, I fought it like crazy with letters and email and begged them not to but they did. That was a definite action to start this war. The Palestinians, whether Arafat was alive (glad he's dead) or under the Hamas, are nothing fit to live.

The Palestinians deserve NOTHING.

CAH
07-15-2006, 01:42 PM
Does anyone remember the Olympic games in Munich, Germany? The Israeli athletes were ambushed and murdered by peace loving Islamics? Arafat, the wonderful leader of Palestine, was one of the killers.

Palestine planted a bomb in Israel and killed a bunch of Israelis and when Israel struck back, Arafat said on TV, crying to the U.N. "Israel retaliated first."

Those people elected Hamas and that means that none of them are worth anything.

Livinginthe past
07-15-2006, 01:42 PM
Israel got the Gaza Strip and the West Bank after that war when they were attacked by 6 countries. They returned all the land they won except the Gaza Strip and the West Bank b/c their enemies were using that territory as a great jumping off point to kill Israelis.

When they finally gave in this past year and gave it to those crumbs to show their desire to get along, I fought it like crazy with letters and email and begged them not to but they did. That was a definite action to start this war. The Palestinians, whether Arafat was alive (glad he's dead) or under the Hamas, are nothing fit to live.

The Palestinians deserve NOTHING.

I'll be honest with you, and this comes down to a point I have made a few times in this forum, I find people who generalise massive groups of people to lack credibility.

Its pretty clear you just dont like Palestinian people, even the ones who have absolutely no choice regarding the location they live their lives.

Unfortunatly the attitude you are displaying here is exactly the thinking of the current Israeli PM and the one before him - there is to be no compromise - Palestinians deserve nothing.

NM

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-15-2006, 01:52 PM
Two wrongs don't make a right and your playing down of the sonic booming tactics as merely 'noise' doesnt make it any less of civil liberties crime.

Of course I do not endorse the suicide bombings, but there is a great deal of differnce between the actions of a terrorist organisation and State sponsored terror tactics.

I cannot understand people who think that this type of escalation in hostilities is the way to resolve the situation - these latest tactics will only ensure that more and more Palestinian children will be recruitment material for trrorist organisations - therefore killing more Israeli innocents.



Are you suggesting that the Muslim population are trespassing in Palestine?Its all very well reciting the history of the Palestine region, but it doesn't help resolve the situation at hand - quoting interesting facts about the Ottoman Empire at these people will not make them disappear.

The fact is, these people think of that area as their home and they are being treated like a nation of POW's - its not surprise to me that they take the desperate option of suicide bombings - there situation is a hopeless one.

This is clearly case a large state bullying a group of displaced people, not a million miles away from the Kurds in Iraq.

NM


I dont believe for a second that you think I implied that the Palestinians are "trespassers" and I think you are being more than a little manipulative...what they are...are a displaced race, of Arab descent..who are being used by the Arab World as a tool to force the world to get rid of the Legal state of Israel and the Jewish race. They have made it very clear that their goal is not to "reclaim land...from their own mouths the goal is to promote the end of the "Zionist State" by political or military means.
To be a POW ..one would have to be held prisoner...how is Israel not letting the Palestinians establish a government within the borders of their own country..holding them prisoner. If the Arab world were so worried about setting up Arab races in the land that they "think of as home"... Why havent they forced or even asked Iraq to establish a country for the Kurds. (who by the way are a much larger misplaced people than the Palestinians)...or is it only okay to force OTHER races and religions to give up their alleged "stolen" homeland. ANSWER?: Because the goal is not the establishment of Palestine..the goal is clearly the demise of Israel.
I can "think" of a land as my homeland..it doesnt make it fact..and it in no way means that I deserve anything. The Jewish people cannot even let the Palestinians live in autonomy in their country because they have already shown and stated that they are not willing to share..not willing to co-habitate..not even willing to co-rule...It is ONLY the complete non-existence of Israel that they strive for.
And again you refuse to compare the "Retaliation" of Israel to the "attacks" of terrorists.

CAH
07-15-2006, 01:56 PM
I'll be honest with you, and this comes down to a point I have made a few times in this forum, I find people who generalise massive groups of people to lack credibility.

Its pretty clear you just dont like Palestinian people, even the ones who have absolutely no choice regarding the location they live their lives.

Unfortunatly the attitude you are displaying here is exactly the thinking of the current Israeli PM and the one before him - there is to be no compromise - Palestinians deserve nothing.

NM
If anyone came to America and put bombs on young people to kill as many Americans as possible, wouldn't you hate them? That's the way they terrorized Israel for years. Why should Israel have to endure that?

It's impossible not to kill civilians b/c they wear no uniforms. They keep their arsenal in schools and mosques and when Israel bombs them, they say the Jews blow up schools and mosques.

They want to eliminate Israel but their number one choice is America. When they come here, be sure and welcome them. :rolleyes:

Livinginthe past
07-15-2006, 03:17 PM
I dont believe for a second that you think I implied that the Palestinians are "trespassers" and I think you are being more than a little manipulative...what they are...are a displaced race, of Arab descent..who are being used by the Arab World as a tool to force the world to get rid of the Legal state of Israel and the Jewish race. They have made it very clear that their goal is not to "reclaim land...from their own mouths the goal is to promote the end of the "Zionist State" by political or military means.
To be a POW ..one would have to be held prisoner...how is Israel not letting the Palestinians establish a government within the borders of their own country..holding them prisoner. If the Arab world were so worried about setting up Arab races in the land that they "think of as home"... Why havent they forced or even asked Iraq to establish a country for the Kurds. (who by the way are a much larger misplaced people than the Palestinians)...or is it only okay to force OTHER races and religions to give up their alleged "stolen" homeland. ANSWER?: Because the goal is not the establishment of Palestine..the goal is clearly the demise of Israel.
I can "think" of a land as my homeland..it doesnt make it fact..and it in no way means that I deserve anything. The Jewish people cannot even let the Palestinians live in autonomy in their country because they have already shown and stated that they are not willing to share..not willing to co-habitate..not even willing to co-rule...It is ONLY the complete non-existence of Israel that they strive for.
And again you refuse to compare the "Retaliation" of Israel to the "attacks" of terrorists.

If the Israeli government believe that the Muslim settlers have no right to be on that land, then surely it thinks of them as trespassers?

I used the POW comparison because of the nature of the Israeli occupation of land that was handed to the Palestinian people by way of the Geneva Accord which, I might add, has been backed by Colin Powell.

The Israeli's refuse to unoccupy this land, and chose to fence a large portion of the Muslim community in behind the Security Barrier.

This barrier was put up with the intention of preventing suicide bombings, as im sure you are aware, but another unfortunate result was that many Palestinians have found themselves cut off from their places of work.

These completely innocent civilians are humiliated on a daily basis, as they are herded through checkpoints like so many cattle.

Israel has repeatedly ignored the rulings of the UN, and did so again regarding the inhumane nature of the Security Barrier.

I can fully understand the Israeli people wanting to protect themselves from suicide attacks, but this policy is typical of their collective punishment of a whole people for the crimes of a small minority.

Abbas has a reputation as a reasonable person, and he has often championed the use of political discourse to resolve these issues, rather than bombings and suicide attacks.

However, shortly after his appointement mortar attacks continued to rain down on Palestinian settlements.

During this one sided ceasefire, there we no suicide bombings, yet Israel continued to arrest and kill Palestinian terrorist leaders, to occupy west bank cities, to destroy homes of Palestinian civilians and attack them at checkpoints.

NM

SteelCzar76
07-15-2006, 04:14 PM
WWIII started on Sept. 11 2001 gentlemen. You haven't seen anything yet.


"Hail Caesar,...Hail the Black and Gold"

slashsteel
07-15-2006, 04:44 PM
Cah as a ex soldier, I agree with you on all fronts sexy cool. It isn't hard to hate a race after you see what the majority of them are capable of. Doesn't make it always right, but tragedy can bring this way of thinking about.

Now with Iraq, I don't believe that the US should even have any soldiers stationed there.

First you have a soldier (babies) that are serving there as a MP's, but arn't trained as one.

Then you have a country that will never come around to normalcy. 98% of the country just doesn't want us there. Overwelming religious backed ways of thinking, won't be changed by us. So the few innocent that do reside there should just big boat it right over here to America. Give them a SSN then a job. Then we can get the F**k out of where we don't belong.

slashsteel
07-15-2006, 05:02 PM
Oh but I do want to give kudos to Living, Cah, and Tooth. Very good indepth views by all.

Isn't a shame we all just can't get along ? ;)

Hawk Believer
07-15-2006, 05:39 PM
Does anyone remember the Olympic games in Munich, Germany? The Israeli athletes were ambushed and murdered by peace loving Islamics? Arafat, the wonderful leader of Palestine, was one of the killers.

Palestine planted a bomb in Israel and killed a bunch of Israelis and when Israel struck back, Arafat said on TV, crying to the U.N. "Israel retaliated first."

Those people elected Hamas and that means that none of them are worth anything.
Yikes. To say that no Palestinian is worth anything...

We could have easily had that attitude about the Germans or Japanese after WWII. I am sure many did. But our leaders recognized that most German and Japanese citizens were victims of their own leadership, even if they all didn't believe that. So we could have engaged in genocide if we truly thought those people were worthless. But instead the Allies learned the lessons of the failed Treaty of Versailles and treated the people who were previously bitter enemies with dignity and compassion for the most part. We helped them rebuild and now they are productive countries that have not presented any threat to us or their neighbors in 60 years.

Hate the people who are promulgating terrorism and raising kids to be bombs. But I hope that people will recognize that the average Palestinian has been getting shafted by their supposed friends and enemies for too long and they have victims among them as well.

CAH
07-15-2006, 06:20 PM
If the Israeli government believe that the Muslim settlers have no right to be on that land, then surely it thinks of them as trespassers?

I used the POW comparison because of the nature of the Israeli occupation of land that was handed to the Palestinian people by way of the Geneva Accord which, I might add, has been backed by Colin Powell.

The Israeli's refuse to unoccupy this land, and chose to fence a large portion of the Muslim community in behind the Security Barrier.
The land that Israel settled was ceded to them by England, who had title to it. It never was the Palestinian's home until Israel gave them the land, hoping to live in peace. Israel built Temples and mosques but that wasn't good enough, Palestine wanted all of it and have been working ever since to kill all Jews.

This barrier was put up with the intention of preventing suicide bombings, as im sure you are aware, but another unfortunate result was that many Palestinians have found themselves cut off from their places of work.

These completely innocent civilians are humiliated on a daily basis, as they are herded through checkpoints like so many cattle.
That barrier was erected to stop the killing of Jews. Hamas never stopped killing them so what would you do in Israels place? Like cattle? You're too dramatic. If there were killer wolves around your home, would you put up a fence to keep them out and if the wolves cried about it, would you take down the fence. Palestine would not stop the killing even with the barrier.

Israel has repeatedly ignored the rulings of the UN, and did so again regarding the inhumane nature of the Security Barrier.

I can fully understand the Israeli people wanting to protect themselves from suicide attacks, but this policy is typical of their collective punishment of a whole people for the crimes of a small minority.
The U.N. is anti-semetic and would never pass any resolution to help Israel. The U.N. is a useless bunch oh thieves but you already know that.

Abbas has a reputation as a reasonable person, and he has often championed the use of political discourse to resolve these issues, rather than bombings and suicide attacks.

However, shortly after his appointement mortar attacks continued to rain down on Palestinian settlements.

During this one sided ceasefire, there we no suicide bombings, yet Israel continued to arrest and kill Palestinian terrorist leaders, to occupy west bank cities, to destroy homes of Palestinian civilians and attack them at checkpoints.

NM
You are way off base. NEVER has Israel ever bombed or destroyed anything of the Palestinians except in immediate retaliation. Hamas rules and that means"Kill all Jews".

CAH
07-15-2006, 06:29 PM
Cah as a ex soldier, I agree with you on all fronts sexy cool. It isn't hard to hate a race after you see what the majority of them are capable of. Doesn't make it always right, but tragedy can bring this way of thinking about.

Now with Iraq, I don't believe that the US should even have any soldiers stationed there.

First you have a soldier (babies) that are serving there as a MP's, but arn't trained as one.

Then you have a country that will never come around to normalcy. 98% of the country just doesn't want us there. Overwelming religious backed ways of thinking, won't be changed by us. So the few innocent that do reside there should just big boat it right over here to America. Give them a SSN then a job. Then we can get the F**k out of where we don't belong.
The best thing Bush did was go into Iraq. You say that 98% of the Iraqis don't want us there so why do they insist we stay until their army is ready? Most of the troops are in pretty good shape but it takes a while to train officers. You have to have read Democratic blog. LOL They only say what will hurt Bush. It's only politics but your info is incorrect. After WWII, we were still in Germany and Japan longer than being in Iraq. Calm down. Regardless of what the Liberals say, Bush is smart as a fox and he is one of our better presidents and I've lived through a lot of them. LMAO

CAH
07-15-2006, 06:38 PM
Yikes. To say that no Palestinian is worth anything...

We could have easily had that attitude about the Germans or Japanese after WWII. I am sure many did. But our leaders recognized that most German and Japanese citizens were victims of their own leadership, even if they all didn't believe that. So we could have engaged in genocide if we truly thought those people were worthless. But instead the Allies learned the lessons of the failed Treaty of Versailles and treated the people who were previously bitter enemies with dignity and compassion for the most part. We helped them rebuild and now they are productive countries that have not presented any threat to us or their neighbors in 60 years.

Hate the people who are promulgating terrorism and raising kids to be bombs. But I hope that people will recognize that the average Palestinian has been getting shafted by their supposed friends and enemies for too long and they have victims among them as well.
Arafat brought in only people loyal to him and his credo "All Jews must die." No matter what Israel did for them, they killed Jews. They aren't there to make homes. They are there to kill Jews. Terrorists are going into the Gaza Strip via Egypt. Wonder why? They want to make a home? Of course the terrorists have families, who are there but there is no way to separate them. The kids only know (were taught) to hate Jews and kill them. They are taught that with the Koran which is interperated to say that all infidels must be killed.

Livinginthe past
07-15-2006, 06:41 PM
The land that Israel settled was ceded to them by England, who had title to it. It never was the Palestinian's home until Israel gave them the land, hoping to live in peace. Israel built Temples and mosques but that wasn't good enough, Palestine wanted all of it and have been working ever since to kill all Jews.


Thats some controversial views you have there.

I think you are confusing the crazy rhetoric of politicians with the general consensus of the Muslim population.

Muslims and Jews live side by side in this country, it may not be harmonious all the time, but I can tell you they are not killing each other with rifles or blowing themselves and each other up.

You know why that is?

Its all to do the environment.

There is no massive government sponsored oppression of Jews or Muslims in my country or yours - therefore people dont feel the need to strap bombs to themselves out of sheer desperation and hate.

Some Islamic leaders are known for their crazed rantings, and its fair to say they are demented anti-semites.

By the same token, the last couple of Israeli PM's have been extremely anti-Muslim, these are the people who are paid and elected to provide solutions for the problem, not fan the flames.

The general civilian population of the Gaza strip are not all crazed anti-semites who wish death on people purely because they are Jewish - therefore they should not be punished as if they were.

That barrier was erected to stop the killing of Jews. Hamas never stopped killing them so what would you do in Israels place? Like cattle? You're too dramatic. If there were killer wolves around your home, would you put up a fence to keep them out and if the wolves cried about it, would you take down the fence. Palestine would not stop the killing even with the barrier..

Its pretty amusing that you find the description of civilian Palestinians being herded through checkpoints as 'cattle' a dramatic touch.

Its amusing because in your very next sentence you label the whole Muslim population of that country as 'killer wolves' - I think its pretty obvious who is being more dramatic.

In any case, as you state, the fence isn't working - it hasn't stopped the suicide bombers.

All it is doing is producing more disaffected Palestinian youths who turn to terrorism as a means of fighting back.


The U.N. is anti-semetic and would never pass any resolution to help Israel. The U.N. is a useless bunch oh thieves but you already know that..

What evidence do you have of this wild accusation?

How are the UN anti-semetic?


You are way off base. NEVER has Israel ever bombed or destroyed anything of the Palestinians except in immediate retaliation. Hamas rules and that means"Kill all Jews

It is well documented that during a cease fire just after Abbas took office, there were no suicide bombings - yet the Israeli's continued to mortar Palestinian settlements.

This is fact.

NM

Hawk Believer
07-15-2006, 06:47 PM
Arafat brought in only people loyal to him and his credo "All Jews must die." No matter what Israel did for them, they killed Jews. They aren't there to make homes. They are there to kill Jews. Terrorists are going into the Gaza Strip via Egypt. Wonder why? They want to make a home? Of course the terrorists have families, who are there but there is no way to separate them. The kids only know (were taught) to hate Jews and kill them. They are taught that with the Koran which is interperated to say that all infidels must be killed.
Isn't that level of zealotry comparable to that of imperial Japan's? But were capable of chaning there ways. I acknowledge that the problems are incredibly difficult in regards to the Palestinians (I'm struggling with a way to say that doesn't sound so trite) but I will always have hope that they will someday participate in a solution that will ensure a better life for their children.

Hawk Believer
07-15-2006, 06:56 PM
The U.N. is anti-semetic and would never pass any resolution to help Israel. The U.N. is a useless bunch oh thieves but you already know that.



This is putting a very fine point on a semantic issue. But Arabs are semites as well.

Semites are peoples who speak Semitic languages; the group includes Arabs, Aramaeans, Jews, and many Ethiopians. In a Biblical sense, Semites are peoples whose ancestry can be traced back to Shem, Noah's eldest son. The ancient Semitic populations were pastoral Nomads who several centuries before the Christian Era were migrating in large numbers from Arabia to Mesopotamia, the coasts of the Mediterranean Sea, and the Nile River delta. Jews and other Semites settled in villages in Judea, southern Palestine.

Present day speakers of Semitic languages are as diverse in physical, psychological, cultural, and sociological characteristics as are speakers of Indo European languages. The most prominent Semites today are Arabs and Jews. They are different in many ways, and they have absorbed a variety of European traits through centuries of migration and trade. The origin of Semitic languages, however, and many similarities in the stories of Islam and Judaism reflect a common ancient history.


I find it kind of poignant to think they all used to be family.

SteelCzar76
07-15-2006, 07:09 PM
The wonderous and effective power of organized religion and racism,...never cease to amaze me. They're is no such thing as diffrent "Races" of man,.. only specialized breeds (for lack of a better word). It's disheartining to know that most people feel specific names and description's of the SAME spiritual reality are worthy of so much destruction, misery and suffering. You haven't learned,....but,...hard heads make for soft asses. Battle is neccessary as is EVERYTHING under the sun at some point. But ,... war should be waged not only honorably,....but with valid REASON.


"Hail Caesar,.....Hail the Black and Gold"

slashsteel
07-15-2006, 07:42 PM
<Nothing much to say here, but this is a very educational thread>

So many valid arguments for and against. I just wonder if we are fighting a losing battle. Not quite like Vietnam but with the same results, next to nothing accomplished? This is more of a question than my belief BTW..........

Suitanim
07-15-2006, 08:09 PM
If someone has posted this before, I apologize...but...

http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/news/editorial/15036747.htm

Don't be fooled. Goal is Israel's elimination
By CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER, Washington Post columnist

WASHINGTON - Next June will mark the 40th anniversary of the Six Day War.

For four decades, we have been told that the cause of the anger, violence and terror against Israel is its occupation of the territories seized in that war. End the occupation and the ``cycle of violence'' ceases.

The problem with this claim was that before Israel came into possession of the West Bank and Gaza in the Six Day War, every Arab state had rejected Israel's right to exist and declared Israel's pre-1967 borders -- now deemed sacred -- to be nothing more than the armistice lines suspending, and not ending, the 1948-49 war to exterminate Israel.

But you don't have to be a historian to understand the intention of Israel's enemies. You only have to read today's newspapers.

Exhibit A: Gaza. Just last September, Israel evacuated Gaza completely. It declared the border between Israel and Gaza an international frontier, renouncing any claim to the territory.

Gaza became the first independent Palestinian territory in history. Yet the Gazans continued the war.

They turned Gaza into a base for launching rocket attacks against Israel and for digging tunnels under the border to conduct attacks like the one that killed two Israeli soldiers on June 25 and yielded a wounded hostage brought back to Gaza. Israeli tanks have now had to return to Gaza to try to rescue the hostage and suppress the rocket fire.

Exhibit B: South Lebanon. Two weeks later, on July 12, the Lebanese terror organization, Hezbollah, which has representation in the Lebanese parliament and in the Cabinet, launched an attack into Israel that killed eight soldiers and wounded two, who were brought back to Lebanon as hostages.

What's the grievance here? Israel withdrew from Lebanon completely in 2000. It was so scrupulous in making sure that not one square inch of Lebanon was left inadvertently occupied that it asked the United Nations to verify the exact frontier defining Lebanon's southern border and retreated behind it.

This ``blue line'' was approved by the Security Council, which declared that Israel had fully complied with resolutions demanding its withdrawal from Lebanon.

Grievance satisfied. Yet what happens? Hezbollah has done to South Lebanon exactly what Hamas has done to Gaza: turn it into a military base and terrorist operations center from which to continue the war against Israel. South Lebanon bristles with Hezbollah's 10,000 Katyusha rockets that put northern Israel under the gun. Fired in the first hours of fighting, just 85 of these killed two Israelis and wounded more than 100 in Israel's northern towns.

Over the past six years, Hezbollah has launched periodic raids and rocket attacks into Israel. Israeli retaliation has led to the cessation of these provocations -- until the next time convenient for Hezbollah. Wednesday was such a time. One terror base located in fully unoccupied Arab territory (South Lebanon) attacks Israel in support of another terror base in another fully unoccupied Arab territory (Gaza).

Why? Because occupation was a mere excuse to persuade gullible and historically ignorant Westerners to support the Arab cause against Israel. The issue is, and has always been, Israel's existence. That is what is at stake.

It was Yasser Arafat's PLO that persuaded the world that the issue was occupation. Yet through all those years of pretense, Arafat's own group celebrated its annual Fatah Day on the anniversary of its first attack on Israel, the bombing of Israel's National Water Carrier -- on Jan. 1, 1965.

Note: 1965. Two years before the 1967 war. Two years before Gaza and the West Bank fell into Israeli hands. Two years before there were any ``occupied territories.''

But again, who needs history? As the Palestinian excuses for continuing their war disappear one by one, the rhetoric is becoming more bold and honest. Just last Tuesday, Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, writing in the Washington Post, referred to Israel as ``a supposedly `legitimate' state.''

He made clear what he wants done with this bastard entity. ``Contrary to popular depictions of the crisis in the American media,'' he writes, ``the dispute is not only about Gaza and the West Bank.'' It is about ``a wider national conflict'' that requires the vindication of ``Palestinian national rights.''

That, of course, means the right to all of Palestine, with no Jewish state. In the end, the fighting is about ``the core 1948 issues, rather than the secondary ones from 1967.''

In 1967, Israel acquired the ``occupied territories.'' In 1948, Israel acquired life.

CAH
07-15-2006, 10:01 PM
Great post, Suit. I've followed Israel's progress since the beginning (Yes, I'm that old) which means I've followed the Arab nations. Never have I ever seen such cold blooded murder and it is so hard to believe that anyone can understand the terrorists. It is so sad.

LITP quote "Muslims and Jews live side by side in this country, it may not be harmonious all the time, but I can tell you they are not killing each other with rifles or blowing themselves and each other up."

England has now had a terrorist attack and they, the bombers, were raised in England. Better watch the news a little closer and you'll find England will be doing something to stop it.

Please note Canada. They didn't send troops to Iraq and they caught and stopped a terrorist attack by people with whom they lived side by side in peace.

Here in America, we had 9/11 and I will never forget that. More died then than at Pearl Harbor. Islamic terrorists mean to rid the world of infidels and I assume you are an infidel.

Livinginthe past
07-15-2006, 10:25 PM
Great post, Suit. I've followed Israel's progress since the beginning (Yes, I'm that old) which means I've followed the Arab nations. Never have I ever seen such cold blooded murder and it is so hard to believe that anyone can understand the terrorists. It is so sad.

LITP quote "Muslims and Jews live side by side in this country, it may not be harmonious all the time, but I can tell you they are not killing each other with rifles or blowing themselves and each other up."

England has now had a terrorist attack and they, the bombers, were raised in England. Better watch the news a little closer and you'll find England will be doing something to stop it.

Please note Canada. They didn't send troops to Iraq and they caught and stopped a terrorist attack by people with whom they lived side by side in peace.

Here in America, we had 9/11 and I will never forget that. More died then than at Pearl Harbor. Islamic terrorists mean to rid the world of infidels and I assume you are an infidel.

FYI I live in very same part of England that the bombers started their train journey, so I can assure you that I am well abreast of local affairs.

You cannot seriously compare an isolated incident with the kind of bloodshed that has characterised the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

It also was not an attack that directly targetted Jews.

The use of the world 'infidels' is the language of extremists, not your average Muslim.

Religious texts, if taken literally, would spell the end of the world many times over in pretty much any religion.

I dont trust extremists of any denomination, be it Islam, Catholic or Buddhist.

NM

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-16-2006, 04:47 AM
Abbas has a reputation as a reasonable person, and he has often championed the use of political discourse to resolve these issues, rather than bombings and suicide attacks.


NM
Although compared to his colleagues,Mahmoud Abbas may seem to be a moderate, lets not forget that he wrote a doctoral dissertation, claiming secret ties between the Nazis and the Zionist movement....(TIES BETWEEN THE NAZIS AND JEWS!!!)... His doctoral thesis later became a book, The Other Side: the Secret Relationship Between Nazism and Zionism, In his book, Abbas raised doubts that gas chambers were even used against the Jews

In the mid 1950s Abbas became heavily involved in underground Palestinian politics, joining a number of exiled Palestinians in Qatar, where he was Director of Personnel in the emirate's Civil Service. While there, he recruited a number of people who would become key figures in the Palestine Liberation Organization, and was one of the founding members of Fatah in 1957. Yasser Arafat was among these Key figures.. Abbas is said to have had a powerful behind-the-scenes influence on the PLO

The Munich massacre at the 1972 Summer Olympics in Munich, Germany, when members of the Israeli Olympic team were taken hostage by the Palestinian terrorist organization Black September,( assumed to be an operational cover for Yasser Arafat's Fatah group). led directly to the deaths of 11 Israeli athletes, five of the eight kidnappers, and one German police officer.....Mohammed Daoud Oudeh, one of those believed to have planned or executed the Munich attack, fingered Mahmoud Abbas as responsible for funding the operation.
Moderate or not ...My hope is that all these damaging things from his past have been put behind him and he will stop the use of violence by the Palestiniansin ...and means the words that seem to come so easy to him...

Livinginthe past
07-16-2006, 10:02 AM
Although compared to his colleagues,Mahmoud Abbas may seem to be a moderate, lets not forget that he wrote a doctoral dissertation, claiming secret ties between the Nazis and the Zionist movement....(TIES BETWEEN THE NAZIS AND JEWS!!!)... His doctoral thesis later became a book, The Other Side: the Secret Relationship Between Nazism and Zionism, In his book, Abbas raised doubts that gas chambers were even used against the Jews

In the mid 1950s Abbas became heavily involved in underground Palestinian politics, joining a number of exiled Palestinians in Qatar, where he was Director of Personnel in the emirate's Civil Service. While there, he recruited a number of people who would become key figures in the Palestine Liberation Organization, and was one of the founding members of Fatah in 1957. Yasser Arafat was among these Key figures.. Abbas is said to have had a powerful behind-the-scenes influence on the PLO

The Munich massacre at the 1972 Summer Olympics in Munich, Germany, when members of the Israeli Olympic team were taken hostage by the Palestinian terrorist organization Black September,( assumed to be an operational cover for Yasser Arafat's Fatah group). led directly to the deaths of 11 Israeli athletes, five of the eight kidnappers, and one German police officer.....Mohammed Daoud Oudeh, one of those believed to have planned or executed the Munich attack, fingered Mahmoud Abbas as responsible for funding the operation.
Moderate or not ...My hope is that all these damaging things from his past have been put behind him and he will stop the use of violence by the Palestiniansin ...and means the words that seem to come so easy to him...

I understand your reservations about Abbas, especially based on his past an author and the subject material he wrote about.

Unfortunately, there are very few genuine moderate Jews or Palestinians that are going to get enough votes to get into office.

What we end up with, hopefully is the lesser of two evils.

Personally, I dont expect Abbas or the Israeli government to become the greatest of allies, but I would hope they will communicate enough to stop people from their own countries/ faiths from dying a needless death.

The actions of both groups, whether retaliatory or instigational, have the net result of putting their own people six foot under.

NM

CAH
07-16-2006, 10:20 AM
FYI I live in very same part of England that the bombers started their train journey, so I can assure you that I am well abreast of local affairs.

You cannot seriously compare an isolated incident with the kind of bloodshed that has characterised the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
Isolated incident??? Are you sure you meant to say that? America had 9/11, World Trade Center before that, 2 embassies, USS Cole, etc., India bombing, Spain and of course Englands isolated incident where innocent people died there and at all the others.

It also was not an attack that directly targetted Jews.
They don't give a darn who they kill or hadn't you noticed?

The use of the world 'infidels' is the language of extremists, not your average Muslim.
Infidels is the word they use and they are the ones with the bombs.

Religious texts, if taken literally, would spell the end of the world many times over in pretty much any religion.

I dont trust extremists of any denomination, be it Islam, Catholic or Buddhist.

NM
Not much I can say to that b/c you are thinking like a pacifist which means sitting back, watching your friends die and saying to the terrorist "That's OK. I understand you."

Livinginthe past
07-16-2006, 10:43 AM
Isolated incident??? Are you sure you meant to say that? America had 9/11, World Trade Center before that, 2 embassies, USS Cole, etc., India bombing, Spain and of course Englands isolated incident where innocent people died there and at all the others.

Yes I did mean to say that. You were the one who brought up the issue of terrorist attacks in my country.

There has been one in recent history that could be attributed to Islamic fundamentalists.

You dont get much more isolated than a single incident

They don't give a darn who they kill or hadn't you noticed?

Again, this thread is about the stand off between Israel and Palestine.

Or if we widen the scope, the Jews and the Arabs. You were attempting to tie in the london attack with the current situation in the Gaza strip - it wasn't a anti-semetic attack by its nature, so you can't.


Infidels is the word they use and they are the ones with the bombs.

How many Muslims do you know?

I am willing to suggest zero.

Your average Muslim person does not go around muttering about Infidels.


Not much I can say to that b/c you are thinking like a pacifist which means sitting back, watching your friends die and saying to the terrorist "That's OK. I understand you."

Thats very perceptive of you.

You got me pegged straight away as someone who would sit back and watch their friends die.

To combat a situation, you have to understand it.

Blind hate is what got everyone into this mess in the first place.

NM

Hawk Believer
07-16-2006, 11:08 AM
Since Iran and Syria fund and arm Hezbollah, how long do you all think it will be before Israel goes after them? Or will we do the fighting for them because it might seem an iota less offensive to the region if the US is the aggressor instead of Israel? I don't think we would choose to sustain a ground presence in those countries because we are kinda busy elsewhere. So I would guess we would be bombing and running small scale special ops.

Just thinking out loud here. Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, but I think this will be an issue in the upcoming weeks. They can keep trying to root out Hezbollah, but Israel will want to get their suppliers if their efforts to cut off the supply routes haven't been effective.

I would be pretty nervous right now if I was driving a truck into Lebanon from Syria.

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-16-2006, 11:13 AM
Your average Muslim person does not go around muttering about Infidels.




NM

the Koran states in 9:123
"Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you".

The word usually translated as "infidel" or "unbeliever" in English is the Arabic kafir, pl. kuffar. It literally means "ingrate," and often refers to human ingratitude in not recognizing the "one God" or in persecuting the prophet or Muslims.


That being said...I do know muslims and they state that it is radical clerics who teach their followers to take these verses and apply them to terrorist ideas...Unfortunatley.. their are far too many extremists in this world.

Hawk Believer
07-16-2006, 11:13 AM
Here is a pretty good map that shows the areas being discussed. I know I always have to refresh my geography when discussing the Middle East.
http://www.cia.gov/cia///publications/factbook/maps/is-map.gif

CowherLover
07-16-2006, 12:37 PM
Looking at the larger scale of the entire region and seeing where our troops are positioned you could consider us surrounding them or vice versa. I'm concerned about the retaliation against our troops by countries that, so far, aren't necessarily involved at this point. If we do have to become involved in any manner the rest of the region will undoubtedly react. Which leaves us with few options. Are small nuclear weapons an option? Just looking for other opinions.

I have been a spectator in this thread mainly because I've had my fingers crossed that this would find a quick resolution but that's not going to happen. It's very interesting to read all of your thoughts.

Hawk Believer
07-17-2006, 12:25 AM
Here is a concise Hezbollah (or is it Hizbollah - I've been reading both) primer from CNN.com...

Hezbollah: Violence mixed with social mission

(CNN) -- The group called Hezbollah is on the U.S. State Department's list of terrorist organizations, but also participates in the Lebanese government. A few facts on the organization:


Hezbollah is a Shiite militant group in Lebanon, regarded by the U.S. and Israel as a terrorist organization.


It opposes Israel and the West, and supports a fundamentalist Muslim government.


It is dedicated to eliminating Israel and has formally advocated ultimate establishment of Islamic rule in Lebanon, according to the U.S. State Department.


It garners popular support among Lebanese by setting up schools, hospitals and other social services.


It has become a social/political movement, holding 14 seats in the 128-member Lebanese parliament, according to the parliament's Web site.


The word "hezbollah" means "party of God" in Arabic.


Sheik Hassan Nasrallah is the head of Hezbollah.


Hezbollah fighters operate with almost total autonomy in southern Lebanon, and the government has no control over their actions, according to The Associated Press. But Lebanon has long resisted international pressure to disarm the group.


Hezbollah has often launched shells and fired rockets into northern Israel and into the disputed Shebaa Farms area.


Islamic Resistance is the name of Hezbollah's military wing.


Hezbollah is known or suspected to have been involved in numerous terror attacks against the U.S., Israel or other Western targets, including the 1983 suicide truck bombings in Beirut that killed 241 U.S. Marines at the Marine barracks and 58 at the French military barracks.


The United States and Israel say that Hezbollah is given financial and political assistance, as well as weapons and training, from Iran and Syria. Syria says it supports Hezbollah, but denies supplying it with weapons.


Hezbollah was founded in 1982 in response to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.


It absorbed most of the 1980s umbrella coalition of terrorist groups known as Islamic Jihad, according to Jane's Terrorism and Insurgency Center.


In 2004, Hezbollah exchanged prisoners with Israel in a deal that took three years to negotiate. Israel released more than 400 prisoners and returned 59 bodies of Lebanese fighters. Hezbollah released a kidnapped Israeli businessman and the bodies of three Israeli soldiers.


The 1996 suicide bombing of the Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia, in which 19 are killed, was attributed to Hezbollah.


Hezbollah was blamed for the 1994 bombing of a Jewish community center in Argentina, in which 85 were killed.


The State Department estimates Hezbollah has "several thousand supporters and a few hundred terrorist operatives."

CAH
07-18-2006, 02:54 PM
It garners popular support among Lebanese by setting up schools, hospitals and other social services.

These are killers and I'd like to see Israel knock them out for good. CNN is a known leftist news channel so them trying to humaize Hezballah in any way, bugs me no end.

I've heard Hillary speak up for Israel but the rest of the left is biting their tongues. They heard Bush say that he backs Israel and leftists don't want to agree with him so it will be interesting how they will shun Israel which will put them on the side of the terrorists. They are in a dilemma.

augustashark
07-18-2006, 04:49 PM
Blind hate is what got everyone into this mess in the first place.

NM[/QUOTE]


Litp, please explain? What blind hate are you speaking about? Jews hate Muslims?

SteelCzar76
07-18-2006, 05:48 PM
Game is normaly sold not told,...but since your are family,.... i'll share a cold truth with all of you. The MAJORITY of people in any faction don't really buy into the religious, political or racial (Breed) reasoning that are given for these conflicts. The reality is,..it all boils down to PRIDE and prosperity for the respective nations and or groups involved. It is the nature of man to compete. It is the nature of man to destroy. It is the nature of man to use, manipulate and ruin. Hezbollah placed a losing bet that they and many others of all parties concerened will pay dearly for,...this is written. We as Americans at this point, have to stand firm and be prepared for the things to come. We don't always do the right thing and yes some of our leadership is inept,.....but at the end of the day,...in our heart of hearts we are as Noble and powerful as what we BELIVE THAT WE SHOULD BE,.. come Hell, high water or the shortcomings we all posses by simply being human.


'Hail Caesar,....Hail the Black and gold"

CAH
07-18-2006, 06:00 PM
Game is normaly sold not told,...but since your are family,.... i'll share a cold truth with all of you. The MAJORITY of people in any faction don't really buy into the religious, political or racial (Breed) reasoning that are given for these conflicts. The reality is,..it all boils down to PRIDE and prosperity for the respective nations and or groups involved. It is the nature of man to compete. It is the nature of man to destroy. It is the nature of man to use, manipulate and ruin. Hezbollah placed a losing bet that they and many others of all parties concerened will pay dearly for,...this is written. We as Americans at this point, have to stand firm and be prepared for the things to come. We don't always do the right thing and yes some of our leadership is inept,.....but at the end of the day,...in our heart of hearts we are as Noble and powerful as what we BELIVE THAT WE SHOULD BE,.. come Hell, high water or the shortcomings we all posses by simply being human.


'Hail Caesar,....Hail the Black and gold"
Iran, Hezballah, Syria, Al Queda and Palestine all want Israel eliminated. In other words, the Jews must die along with all other infidels. Pride and prosperity do not enter the picture b/c they're Islamic Fascists. Wonder how much pride was necessary to take down the World Trade Center, among at least 10 other attacks.

Back to the drawing board for you.

SteelCzar76
07-18-2006, 06:30 PM
Cah, you just stated stated my point Ma,....these parties want hebrews destroyed because of PRIDE. (as was the same case with Nazi Germany) They covet,....what they have. Whether that's respect, acheivement or strength of NATION. It is tribalism,...cant you see this ? This is the same reason we (the USA) are hated by them as well. Perhaps you have the wrong preception of what i'm saying ? I have no love or understanding of any dishonorable terrorist jackel that destroy's civilian (non combantant) lives in the name of their "supposed" socio political, tribal and or "religious" charade. My heart does not bleed. And my loyalties and honor are NEVER in question. Long story short,.... "U.S.A.... And aspiring to be what the Father expects of us all".



"Hail Caesar,......Hail the Black and Gold"

Hawk Believer
07-18-2006, 11:14 PM
It garners popular support among Lebanese by setting up schools, hospitals and other social services.

These are killers and I'd like to see Israel knock them out for good. CNN is a known leftist news channel so them trying to humaize Hezballah in any way, bugs me no end.

I've heard Hillary speak up for Israel but the rest of the left is biting their tongues. They heard Bush say that he backs Israel and leftists don't want to agree with him so it will be interesting how they will shun Israel which will put them on the side of the terrorists. They are in a dilemma.
Do you disagree that Hezbollah doesn't set up schools, hospitals, and social services? Or are you just mad that CNN reports that fact?

To ignore how these organizations win the support of some Palestinians would be ludicrous. Hamas and Hezbollah use these techniques to try to "win the hearts and minds" of the Palestians They insidiously provide schools in places where the government has failed to and use them to indoctrinate children. They provide medical and social to civilians injured in attacks. And by doing so, they gain cache amongst some Palestinians and Lebanese so they aren't as quick to criticize when Hezbollah type groups do things that are counter to the average Palestinian's interest (e.g., kidnapping Israeli soldiers and guarenteeing reprisal attacks.) The same methods are employed in places like Pakistan and Afganistan or any other Islamic region where there is a social service vaccuum brought on by weak governance.

Unless you want to engage in genocide, it seems that figuring out how to crack the Islam public relation's nut is going to be one of the most important planks in a policy to secure the world from muslim extremist terrorists.

So I don't see why you would want the press to keep us ignorant of our enemy's methods.

tony hipchest
07-19-2006, 12:01 AM
Cah, you just stated stated my point Ma,....these parties want hebrews destroyed because of PRIDE. (as was the same case with Nazi Germany) They covet,....what they have. Whether that's respect, acheivement or strength of NATION. It is tribalism,...cant you see this ? This is the same reason we (the USA) are hated by them as well. Perhaps you have the wrong preception of what i'm saying ? I have no love or understanding of any dishonorable terrorist jackel that destroy's civilian (non combantant) lives in the name of their "supposed" socio political, tribal and or "religious" charade. My heart does not bleed. And my loyalties and honor are NEVER in question. Long story short,.... "U.S.A.... And aspiring to be what the Father expects of us all".



"Hail Caesar,......Hail the Black and Gold"
CAH may have just automatically and prematurely lumped you in with the leftist libs who are despised even more than the terrorists themselves. some think the die hard democrats are the reasons terrorists exist (even though these religious conflicts have gone on much longer than america has even been around.

and hawkbeliever, if cnn reports it, is there any way it can actually be fact? after all, they are leftist libs and anything they report is manufactured and invented propoganda to brainwash us into converting to islam and strapping bombs to ourselves before we walk throuhg the local mall :rolleyes:

SCSteeler4Life
07-19-2006, 01:28 AM
I think I will side with Israel they are GODS chosen people, if they start fighting Iran and Russia then you better get right because the end is coming.(Revelations)

CAH
07-19-2006, 09:05 AM
Do you disagree that Hezbollah doesn't set up schools, hospitals, and social services? Or are you just mad that CNN reports that fact?
Sure Hezbollah set up schools, hospitals and social services and CNN loves to advance our enemies. Do you know what is stored in those schools and hospitals and mosques? That is where Hezbillah keep their ammo, weapons and military meeting rooms. CNN will not tell you that. Why? it makes Israel, backed by Bush, look unmercenary.

Love that left. CNN = Leftist.

To ignore how these organizations win the support of some Palestinians would be ludicrous. Hamas and Hezbollah use these techniques to try to "win the hearts and minds" of the Palestians They isidiously provide schools in places where the government has failed to and use them to indoctrinate children. They provide medical and social to civilians injured in attacks. And by doing so, they gain cache amongst some Palestinians and Lebanese so they aren't as quick to criticize when Hezbollah type groups do things that are counter to the average Palestinian's interest (e.g., kidnapping Israeli soldiers and guarenteeing reprisal attacks.) The same methods are employed in places like Pakistan and Afganistan or any other Islamic region where there is a social service vaccuum brought on by weak governance.

Unless you want to engage in genocide, it seems that figuring out how to crack the Islam public relation's nut is going to be one of the most important planks in a policy to secure the world from muslim extremist terrorists.

So I don't see why you would want the press to keep us ignorant of our enemy's methods.
You don't see a pattern with CNN? They played up how our troops are murderers via Murtha, Kerry, Durbin and the rest of the left. They played up our torturing of prisoners and played down the beheadings along with other torture of our troops.

This is they way they work, along with ABC, NBC and CBS, not to mention the New York Times. I've been watching all of these traitors and all I know is that Abraham Lincoln would have handled them as traitors. The Al Quada uses dialog of our Democrats in every message and in the defense of Saddam.

They call Iraq a quagmire for us. Wonder where they heard that. Al Quada is counting on our Democrats to sway Americans which will make us putty in their hands. The Democrats will sacrifice America so they can get back power. It's darn scary.

CAH
07-19-2006, 09:11 AM
Cah, you just stated stated my point Ma,....these parties want hebrews destroyed because of PRIDE. (as was the same case with Nazi Germany) They covet,....what they have. Whether that's respect, acheivement or strength of NATION. It is tribalism,...cant you see this ? This is the same reason we (the USA) are hated by them as well. Perhaps you have the wrong preception of what i'm saying ? I have no love or understanding of any dishonorable terrorist jackel that destroy's civilian (non combantant) lives in the name of their "supposed" socio political, tribal and or "religious" charade. My heart does not bleed. And my loyalties and honor are NEVER in question. Long story short,.... "U.S.A.... And aspiring to be what the Father expects of us all".
I did not state your point. They want Jews, Americans and all infidels to die and the sooner, the better.

What you're saying is when a killer murders a small child, he's doing it for pride. Well, you use the word "pride" while I say "killers". A rose by any other name........

Livinginthe past
07-19-2006, 02:49 PM
Sure Hezbollah set up schools, hospitals and social services and CNN loves to advance our enemies. Do you know what is stored in those schools and hospitals and mosques? That is where Hezbillah keep their ammo, weapons and military meeting rooms. CNN will not tell you that. Why? it makes Israel, backed by Bush, look unmercenary.

Love that left. CNN = Leftist.


You don't see a pattern with CNN? They played up how our troops are murderers via Murtha, Kerry, Durbin and the rest of the left. They played up our torturing of prisoners and played down the beheadings along with other torture of our troops.

This is they way they work, along with ABC, NBC and CBS, not to mention the New York Times. I've been watching all of these traitors and all I know is that Abraham Lincoln would have handled them as traitors. The Al Quada uses dialog of our Democrats in every message and in the defense of Saddam.

They call Iraq a quagmire for us. Wonder where they heard that. Al Quada is counting on our Democrats to sway Americans which will make us putty in their hands. The Democrats will sacrifice America so they can get back power. It's darn scary.

This is becoming predictable, rabid nonsense CAH.

As usual, it is the supporters of the Govt who are all too quick to point an accusing finger at people with a counter-point and scream "Leftist Liberal" until they go away.

I dont think there are many more unquestioning loyal nations than the United States (I dont see that as a purely positive thing) - the average Americans natural instinct is to back the Govt's position on most topics.

Therefore, it would be surprising to hear that so many world renowned news networks such as CNN, ABC, NBC and CBS are all pulling against the natural instinct of the demographic they are hoping will watch their show.

The BBC was sneered at in a post on another thread some time back, because they reported something that was to the dislike of the person who viewed it.

Their first reaction?

Biased, untrustworthy source.

I can tell you right now, the BBC is one of the few (perhaps the only) market leader in its industry that the UK can boast - they are so unbiased that they have gotten into hot water plenty of times with the current Blair government for revealing unsavoury, yet truthful details.

Yet, the people who support Blair, very rarely accuse this particular media outlet of political bias - simply becasue they know it wont wash.

Which brings me back to America, and the crazed belief that anyone who does not conform with the party line is a leftist liberal.

You know it wouldnt have been so long ago that people like you would be screaming 'Pinko' and 'Commie' at the tops of your voices - if you cant debate the facts then you can always settle for a little childish name calling.

Its a marked contrast between the two sides that debate topics such as these that only one side ever resorts to labelling the other with vapid generalisations - I cannot honestly say I can remember anyone who is generally anti-Bush as labelling anyone has a Republican stooge, or a Nazi right winger.

There is good reason for that.

The facts are on our side and we dont need to plumb those depths.

NM

bcolton82
07-19-2006, 03:55 PM
^^^^^ That's funny ^^^^^

CAH
07-19-2006, 06:07 PM
News as announced on leftist TV and in the newspapers:
1) Our troops torture prisoners

2) Print classified information.

3) Prisoners tortured at Gitmo

4) Murtha and others want our troops home (Cut and Run)

5) Rumsfeld needs to be fired

6) Cheney needs to be fired

7) Rove needs to be fired

8) Plame was covert agent

9) Bush lied

10) Compared our troops to Nazis

These are just a few and CNN, Times, NBC, CBS, ABC had a field day with these stories and the hype put on them was unbelievable.

JFK was our last true Democrat and after that, you could watch all of them lean further and further left. If JFK were alive, he would not recognize the Democrat Party. How sad. I used to be a Democrat and it was during the Clinton Administration that it dawned on me what was happening and that's when I switched parties.

If you don't think a thing like this could happen, you have your head buried in the sand.

Livinginthe past
07-19-2006, 06:25 PM
News as announced on leftist TV and in the newspapers:
1) Our troops torture prisoners

2) Print classified information.

3) Prisoners tortured at Gitmo

4) Murtha and others want our troops home (Cut and Run)

5) Rumsfeld needs to be fired

6) Cheney needs to be fired

7) Rove needs to be fired

8) Plame was covert agent

9) Bush lied

10) Compared our troops to Nazis

These are just a few and CNN, Times, NBC, CBS, ABC had a field day with these stories and the hype put on them was unbelievable.

JFK was our last true Democrat and after that, you could watch all of them lean further and further left. If JFK were alive, he would not recognize the Democrat Party. How sad. I used to be a Democrat and it was during the Clinton Administration that it dawned on me what was happening and that's when I switched parties.

If you don't think a thing like this could happen, you have your head buried in the sand.

You want to tell me how many of those factual ones you think are untrue?

Lets stick to 1,3 and 9.

Also, can you link to an article that compared American troops to Nazi's.

You haven't a had a great deal of luck linking your 'facts' previously, I hope that trend changes with your next post.

NM

tony hipchest
07-19-2006, 07:54 PM
News as announced on leftist TV and in the newspapers:
1) Our troops torture prisoners

2) Print classified information.

3) Prisoners tortured at Gitmo

4) Murtha and others want our troops home (Cut and Run)

5) Rumsfeld needs to be fired

6) Cheney needs to be fired

7) Rove needs to be fired

8) Plame was covert agent

9) Bush lied

10) Compared our troops to Nazis

These are just a few and CNN, Times, NBC, CBS, ABC had a field day with these stories and the hype put on them was unbelievable.

JFK was our last true Democrat and after that, you could watch all of them lean further and further left. If JFK were alive, he would not recognize the Democrat Party. How sad. I used to be a Democrat and it was during the Clinton Administration that it dawned on me what was happening and that's when I switched parties.

If you don't think a thing like this could happen, you have your head buried in the sand. dont get "news" confused with talking heads commentary and opinion. i know rush has a strong influence but put down the oxycontin and step away from the monitor. as much as i enjoyed the pictures of our troops treating those filthy terrorist bastards like dogs in the iraqui prison, i am not dumb enough to believe that cnn manufactured those photos for ratings.

you dont blame the media for the troops who recently raped an iraqi girl and shot her family to death do you?

sure it sucks, and makes us look bad, and doesnt go far to support our cause. sucks that it was caught and reported. but does that erase the truth that it acually happened?

the stuff goes on over there, just like it went on in viet nam, just like it goes on here in america.

using your reasonning, i guess america shouldnt even report on a story like jeffery dahmer cause it gives a false representation of what a great place america is to live in. why report on kennedys assasination? or reagans attempted assasination? or clinton getting a blow job? (im sure the left was behind that media circus :rolleyes:)

SteelCzar76
07-19-2006, 08:18 PM
Cah,.. the thing about you that trips me out,...is the fact that you don't see that i love and support my country probably moreso than you do ? Whether we are wrong or right ! I'm not cosigning ANY outside faction. Terrorist's are indeed MURDERER'S . I just illuminated you on the fact that everyone on this world born of woman,......is a KILLER. You speak of media as traitors,...when did you ever think the media was truthful, righteous and out for the betterment of humanity ? The media serves POWER and self interest,.... just like anything and anyone else. (the interesting and edgey scoop,..regardless of merit)
I'am not leftist or right wing,....but American and something else that you cannot comprehend. Don't put words into other people's mouths or make ASSumption's. It undermines your argument's, rationale and point of view.

"With all due respect Maa'm"

Hail Caesar,......Hail the Black and Gold" NUFF SAID

CAH
07-19-2006, 08:31 PM
You want to tell me how many of those factual ones you think are untrue?

Lets stick to 1,3 and 9.

Also, can you link to an article that compared American troops to Nazi's.

You haven't a had a great deal of luck linking your 'facts' previously, I hope that trend changes with your next post.

NM
Great
1) Our troops torture prisoners - They put underwear on heads, naked, etc but no pain.
Pictures of it run on all channels continuously except FOX

Our troops beheaded, eyes dug out while alive, bodies drug through the streets and hung from a bridge. Mentioned 24 hours and done.

3) LOL This is a joke. The constantly run stories of torture at Gitmo such as Korans flushed down toilets {what toilets they must have}, loud heavy metal music, too cold, too warm, bad food (some are gaining weight).

The food at Gitmo is better than what their guards get, they get to pray so many times a day and provided with prayer rugs, no one was ever found with a mark on them (checked all the time), can't free any of them b/c they are killers and they vow to kill infidels as soon as they go free plus most of their countries refuse to take them back.
Kennedy, Durbin, Byrd, Pelosi, Boxer, Kerry, Dean, etc repeatedly speak about it and they get no opposition on the leftist channels.

9) Bush lied? About what?

Did these people lie too?

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003 | Source


"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002 | Source


"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998 | Source


"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
- President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998 | Source


"We must stop Saddam from ever again jeopardizing the stability and security of his neighbors with weapons of mass destruction."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 1, 1998 | Source


"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998 | Source


"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton.
- (D) Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, others, Oct. 9, 1998 | Source


"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998 | Source


"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999 | Source


"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them."
- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002 | Source


"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 | Source


"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 | Source


"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002 | Source


"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002 | Source


"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002 | Source

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002 | Source

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002 | Source

Hawk Believer
07-19-2006, 08:35 PM
"Responsibility for endangering [Lebanese]civilian population rests on the Hezbollah terror organization, which operates and launches missiles at Israel from populated civilian areas," the IDF said, stressing Hezbollah "has launched hundreds of rockets indiscriminately at Israeli cities putting over a million Israeli citizens within the range of missile fire."

Elite Iranian troops from the Islamic nation's Revolutionary Guard have been in Lebanon for "quite some time" and aided Hezbollah militants in firing a missile that hit an Israeli warship Friday, leaving three sailors missing and killing one, according to an Israeli official.


It was the fourth day of the swiftly-moving Lebanese crisis, triggered when Hezbollah guerrillas in Lebanon entered Israel, killed three soldiers and kidnapped two others. Israel immediately invaded Lebanon to hunt down the soldiers and take out the Iranian-backed Hezbollah movement

"The state of Israel warned the Lebanese population who are present at the compound or around it, using leaflets and different means of communication, to stay clear from the site for their own safety," the IDF said.

I searched CNN for Israel related news. The first 4 articles contained all the above quotes, each from a seperate article. Hardly seems like they are reporting only one side as implied by some.

tony hipchest
07-19-2006, 08:46 PM
Great
1) Our troops torture prisoners - They put underwear on heads, naked, etc but no pain.
Pictures of it run on all channels continuously except FOX

Our troops beheaded, eyes dug out while alive, bodies drug through the streets and hung from a bridge. Mentioned 24 hours and done.

3) LOL This is a joke. The constantly run stories of torture at Gitmo such as Korans flushed down toilets {what toilets they must have}, loud heavy metal music, too cold, too warm, bad food (some are gaining weight).

The food at Gitmo is better than what their guards get, they get to pray so many times a day and provided with prayer rugs, no one was ever found with a mark on them (checked all the time), can't free any of them b/c they are killers and they vow to kill infidels as soon as they go free plus most of their countries refuse to take them back.
Kennedy, Durbin, Byrd, Pelosi, Boxer, Kerry, Dean, etc repeatedly speak about it and they get no opposition on the leftist channels.

9) Bush lied? About what?

Did these people lie too?

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003 | Source


"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002 | Source


"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998 | Source


"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
- President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998 | Source


"We must stop Saddam from ever again jeopardizing the stability and security of his neighbors with weapons of mass destruction."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 1, 1998 | Source


"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998 | Source


"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton.
- (D) Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, others, Oct. 9, 1998 | Source


"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998 | Source


"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999 | Source


"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them."
- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002 | Source


"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 | Source


"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 | Source


"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002 | Source


"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002 | Source


"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002 | Source

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002 | Source

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002 | Source stick to answering the question at hand CAH. we all want to receive the enlightenment you seem convinced you possess.

these deflectionary answers just prove you got nothing to support your stance.

tony hipchest
07-19-2006, 09:39 PM
FOX news just reported that current israeli actions against lebanon is probably creating future terrorists.

OMG!!! is FOX going left?????

:sofunny:

or are they just reporting facts?

HometownGal
07-20-2006, 08:04 AM
Also, can you link to an article that compared American troops to Nazi's.


I think this is what CAH is making reference to, LITP. Whether Durbin intended for his comments to definitively compare American troops to Nazis or not, he should have been more careful in his choice of words, imho. I'm a GOP'r, but it doesn't take rocket science to see that the GOP does the twist and turn with statements made by members of the opposing party just as much as the Demos do. They all need to stick to the subject at hand and stop the infantile finger-pointing. :rolleyes:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159844,00.html

WASHINGTON ? After a barrage of criticism, Sen. Dick Durbin (search) went to the Senate floor Thursday evening to repeat a controversial statement he made two days earlier and insist he said nothing objectionable.

In remarks first expressed on the Senate floor late Tuesday and then re-read verbatim on Thursday evening, Durbin, the No. 2 Democrat in the Senate, read the report of an FBI agent who described treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Among the descriptions, the report noted one case in which a detainee was held in such cold temperatures that he shivered, another in which a prisoner was held in heat passing 100 degrees, one in which prisoners were left in isolation so long they fouled themselves and one where a prisoner was chained to the floor and forced to listen to loud rap music.

"If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags or some mad regime ? Pol Pot or others ? that had no concern for human beings," Durbin said.

Following those remarks, the Illinois senator clarified that he was not comparing U.S. soldiers to Pol Pot (search), Nazis or Soviet guards, but was "attributing this form of interrogation to repressive regimes such as those that I note.

"If this indeed occurred, it does not represent American values. It does not represent what our country stands for, it is not the sort of conduct we would ever condone ... and that is the point I was making. Now, sadly, we have a situation here where some in the right-wing media have said that I have been insulting men and women in uniform. Nothing could be further from truth," Durbin said, following up under questioning by Sen. John Warner, R-Va., that he does not know if the interrogators cited in the FBI report were Americans or not.

Under Pol Pot's regime, 1.5 million died in death camps and another 200,000 so-called "enemies of the state" were executed. The Nazis killed 6 million Jews and forced hundreds of thousands into slave labor. The USSR's Joseph Stalin (search) sent 25 million people to labor camps where many were worked to death.

Republicans and Bush administration officials called the comparison between those horrors and the U.S. prison camp's guards "reprehensible" and "deplorable."

"Clearly, that's over the top. That is not what is happening at Guantanamo Bay. What is happening at Guantanamo Bay is we're trying to treat people humanely, recognizing that these are terrorists," said Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas.

Click in the box near the top of the story to watch a report by FOX News' Jim Angle.

"Senator Durbin's statements are deplorable. He should ask for forgiveness, forgiveness from our troops, from their families and all of us who are trying to win this War on Terror," said Sen. George Allen, R-Va.

To compare treatment by guards at Guantanamo Bay to "concentration camps and Pol Pot's regime is simply reprehensible," White House spokesman Scott McClellan said. "I just think those remarks are reprehensible and they are a real disservice to our men and women in uniform. Our men and women in uniform go out of their way to treat detainees humanely, and they go out of their way to uphold the values and the laws we hold so dear to our country.

"When you talk about the gulags and the concentration camps and Pol Pot's regime, millions of people, innocent people were killed by those regimes," he said.

Warner, chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said he had inquired as to whether the FBI's descriptions are true.

"I was trained as a lawyer, many years as a prosecutor dealt with the bureau, have the highest respect. But I do not accept at face value everything they put down on paper until I make certain it can be corroborated and substantiated.

"And for you to come to the floor with just that fragment of a report and then unleash the words 'the Nazis,' unleash the word 'gulag,' unleash 'Pol Pot,' I don't know how many remember that chapter, it seems to me that was a grievous error in judgment and leaves open to the press of the world to take those three extraordinary chapters in world history and try to intertwine it with what has taken place, allegedly, at Guantanamo," Warner said.

The military operates under strict guidelines that are widely distributed. Only mild non-injurious physical contact is allowed, such as light pushing. Sleep deprivation is used along with stress positions, but they are limited in time.

One knowledgeable official familiar with the memo cited by Durbin as well as other memos said the FBI agent made no such allegation and that the memo described only someone chained to the floor. Anything beyond that is simply an interpretation, the official said.

Several Democrats declined to comment on Durbin's remarks. Those who did chose their words carefully, saying questions remain about interrogations.

"I don't think, however, that I would go quite as far as he would because, for example, I don't think we need to close down Guantanamo Bay," said Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D-Va.

Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada suggested that the more unpopular President Bush becomes, the louder the noise from the White House to distract from its failed policies.

"The more the popularity of the president plummets, the more the people downtown try to play the game of attack," Reid said. "This is all an attempt at distracting us from the officials before us ... Do we have a problem with the issues [Durbin] is discussing? Yes, let's focus on them."

CAH
07-20-2006, 08:46 AM
stick to answering the question at hand CAH. we all want to receive the enlightenment you seem convinced you possess.

these deflectionary answers just prove you got nothing to support your stance.
I bow to your superior knowledge. I'll keep out of it and let you intellects handle it. CIAO

RoethlisBURGHer
07-20-2006, 01:44 PM
I don't think Isreal had much choice in either conflict.Thier borders are constantly being breached by terrorists from Lebanon (Hezbal-however-the-fudge-you-spell-it-a) and from the Palestiniens.

Isreal has to defend itself,and if by destroying thier enemies is the only way for Isreal to gaurantee for this stuff to stop happening,so be it.

I just hope it doesn't end ina nuclear war.

Livinginthe past
07-20-2006, 02:09 PM
I think this is what CAH is making reference to, LITP. Whether Durbin intended for his comments to definitively compare American troops to Nazis or not, he should have been more careful in his choice of words, imho. I'm a GOP'r, but it doesn't take rocket science to see that the GOP does the twist and turn with statements made by members of the opposing party just as much as the Demos do. They all need to stick to the subject at hand and stop the infantile finger-pointing. :rolleyes:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159844,00.html

WASHINGTON ? After a barrage of criticism, Sen. Dick Durbin (search) went to the Senate floor Thursday evening to repeat a controversial statement he made two days earlier and insist he said nothing objectionable.

In remarks first expressed on the Senate floor late Tuesday and then re-read verbatim on Thursday evening, Durbin, the No. 2 Democrat in the Senate, read the report of an FBI agent who described treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

.................................

"The more the popularity of the president plummets, the more the people downtown try to play the game of attack," Reid said. "This is all an attempt at distracting us from the officials before us ... Do we have a problem with the issues [Durbin] is discussing? Yes, let's focus on them."

Hey HTG,

Appreciate the link.

The comments by Durbin were intended to grab the attention of the public I would imagine.

Im glad he chose to define the difference between US Soldiers being Nazi's and US Soldiers engaging in interrogation techniques that would be more associated with an oppresive regime.

I think the US soldier has been placed in an awful position - they expect these guys to go to war with another nation of people based upon nothing more than 'orders' - there can be no case made for self defence - and they expect that they will be able to function as rational normal people the next minute.

I am lucky enough to have not experienced taking someone elses life, but the things these soldiers are being accused of pales in comparison when held up against what they are expected to do as soldiers - ie kill.

NM

MasterOfPuppets
07-21-2006, 02:24 AM
I've just seen on fox news that the Lebanese is putting the blame on this whole excursion on Israel, as if hezbollah is innocent. they said if Israel invades Lebanon,then the Lebanese army will fight along side of hezbollah.at first I felt somewhat sorry for Lebanon for being caught in the middle(but not to sorry,or they would have had an alliance with Israel to get hezbollah out of the country, if they didn't support terrorism ) but now I hope Israel levels the whole damn place.

Livinginthe past
07-21-2006, 09:04 AM
I've just seen on fox news that the Lebanese is putting the blame on this whole excursion on Israel, as if hezbollah is innocent. they said if Israel invades Lebanon,then the Lebanese army will fight along side of hezbollah.at first I felt somewhat sorry for Lebanon for being caught in the middle(but not to sorry,or they would have had an alliance with Israel to get hezbollah out of the country, if they didn't support terrorism ) but now I hope Israel levels the whole damn place.

Level the whole place?

You mean annex the whole country and kill its whole population?

There is a word for that - its called genocide.

NM

BlackNGold203
07-21-2006, 09:18 AM
CERTAIN SIGN OF THE APOCALYPSE

I actually created a thread that has generated this much discussion.....:cool:

I've enjoyed reading everyone's posts....good input all around

83-Steelers-43
07-21-2006, 10:00 AM
I've just seen on fox news that the Lebanese is putting the blame on this whole excursion on Israel, as if hezbollah is innocent. they said if Israel invades Lebanon,then the Lebanese army will fight along side of hezbollah.at first I felt somewhat sorry for Lebanon for being caught in the middle(but not to sorry,or they would have had an alliance with Israel to get hezbollah out of the country, if they didn't support terrorism ) but now I hope Israel levels the whole damn place.

While I agree completely with Israel defending itself and I have no problem with them killing as many Hezbollah scumbags as they possibly can, I think Israel has to watch for civilian casualties. If you start killing civilians on purpose your no better than the animals that some idiots on this globe actually stick up for and side with (Hezbollah). At this point though, I'm all for backing Israel and it's right to defend itself against these animals.

In my opinion, these animals do not want peace. They want to kill the jews. Plain and simple. They started this situation and Israel plans on ending it and I'm hoping for once and for all. Talking and holding hands and singing warm songs is not an option with these scumbags. Many like to think so while they live in the comforts of their own home and not in a country where terrorists would love nothing more than to kill you and your family members. Personally, I would have the "killed or be killed" type of attitude if I was an Israeli.

MasterOfPuppets
07-21-2006, 04:16 PM
While I agree completely with Israel defending itself and I have no problem with them killing as many Hezbollah scumbags as they possibly can, I think Israel has to watch for civilian casualties. If you start killing civilians on purpose your no better than the animals that some idiots on this globe actually stick up for and side with (Hezbollah). At this point though, I'm all for backing Israel and it's right to defend itself against these animals.

In my opinion, these animals do not want peace. They want to kill the jews. Plain and simple. They started this situation and Israel plans on ending it and I'm hoping for once and for all. Talking and holding hands and singing warm songs is not an option with these scumbags. Many like to think so while they live in the comforts of their own home and not in a country where terrorists would love nothing more than to kill you and your family members. Personally, I would have the "killed or be killed" type of attitude if I was an Israeli.
well the bottom line is,there is no way to wage a war in a populated area without collateral damage. if Lebanon were so concerned with living peacefully with its neighbor,and protecting its civilians ,then it would be working with Israel to solve the hezbollah problem. the fact is,their doing just the opposite by making threats if Israel crosses the border.I don't know about you,but to me,that says Lebanon is condoning the actions of hezbollah. if your housing terrorist,and allowing them to operate freely,and wage wars from within your borders,then you SHOULD except,and expect to be drawn into the middle of it.

if you have a guest in your house,and they start shooting at people from your window,if you stand by and do nothing to stop it, doesn't that make you equally as guilty?

Livinginthe past
07-21-2006, 05:04 PM
well the bottom line is,there is no way to wage a war in a populated area without collateral damage. if Lebanon were so concerned with living peacefully with its neighbor,and protecting its civillians ,then it would be working with Israel to solve the hezbollah problem. the fact is,their doing just the opposite by making threats if Israel crosses the border.I don't know about you,but to me,that says Lebanon is condoning the actions of hezbollah. if your housing terrorist,and allowing them to operate freely,and wage wars from within your borders,then you SHOULD except,and expect to be drawn into the middle of it.

I dont remember the Lebanese taking any sort of referendum on its foreign policy regarding its actions towards the Hezbollah, and by extension Israel.

Religious fanatics, under the guise of politicians, have caused this unholy mess - I really can see any justification whatsoever for killing and maiming the general population who had absolutely no say in this fiasco.

Oh, and I absolutely despise the use of the term 'collateral damage' to describe the murder of civilians.

If fate had treated us a little differently, it could well have been me and you scrambling for our lives and being driven from our home by Israeli troops, and then having our convoy then blown to pieces by fighter jets.

NM

83-Steelers-43
07-21-2006, 05:05 PM
well the bottom line is,there is no way to wage a war in a populated area without collateral damage. if Lebanon were so concerned with living peacefully with its neighbor,and protecting its civilians ,then it would be working with Israel to solve the hezbollah problem. the fact is,their doing just the opposite by making threats if Israel crosses the border.I don't know about you,but to me,that says Lebanon is condoning the actions of hezbollah. if your housing terrorist,and allowing them to operate freely,and wage wars from within your borders,then you SHOULD except,and expect to be drawn into the middle of it.

if you have a guest in your house,and they start shooting at people from your window,if you stand by and do nothing to stop it, doesn't that make you equally as guilty?

Please understand, I'm not stating Israel should sit back and take the punches. Actually, I stated the total opposite in which I thought I stated pretty clearly. I just don't agree with going in there and leveling neighborhoods and killing innocent people. I would love to see Israel completely wipe out Hezbollah, but not at the expense of innocent children and women.

While I'm completely aware of the fact that civilian casualties in war are inevitable (some don't, they tend to live in that little ferry tale world), but I believe in precision bombing. I don't believe in going in there and carpet bombing large towns and cities while killing innocent civilians. That would make them just as bad as the scum they are fighting. It also gives the people who don't care about Israel being cleaned off the map and who actually side with Hezbollah the excuse to say "Look, it's not just Hezbollah".

Hammer67
07-21-2006, 06:07 PM
Hey HTG,

Appreciate the link.

The comments by Durbin were intended to grab the attention of the public I would imagine.

Im glad he chose to define the difference between US Soldiers being Nazi's and US Soldiers engaging in interrogation techniques that would be more associated with an oppresive regime.

I think the US soldier has been placed in an awful position - they expect these guys to go to war with another nation of people based upon nothing more than 'orders' - there can be no case made for self defence - and they expect that they will be able to function as rational normal people the next minute.

I am lucky enough to have not experienced taking someone elses life, but the things these soldiers are being accused of pales in comparison when held up against what they are expected to do as soldiers - ie kill.

NM

This is a good point. I was having this very discussion at a family reunion last weekend with my cousin who is back from two tours in Afghan. & Iraq. He said it is very interesting to see people debate torture, questioning, what it means to be a soldier, rules of engagement, etc. while never having been in that situation themselves.

For instance, remember the soldier who killed the wounded Iraqi in the Mosque? We, the viewers, had no context for the happenings before and after that incident. But we are shown a brief clip on the news and all of a sudden everyone is an expert and can pass judgement.

Reminds me of a great line from Black Hawk Down. "Once that first bullet goes past your head, politics and all that shit just goes right out the window."

Hammer67
07-21-2006, 06:13 PM
I dont remember the Lebanese taking any sort of referendum on its foreign policy regarding its actions towards the Hezbollah, and by extension Israel.

Religious fanatics, under the guise of politicians, have caused this unholy mess - I really can see any justification whatsoever for killing and maiming the general population who had absolutely no say in this fiasco.

Oh, and I absolutely despise the use of the term 'collateral damage' to describe the murder of civilians.

If fate had treated us a little differently, it could well have been me and you scrambling for our lives and being driven from our home by Israeli troops, and then having our convoy then blown to pieces by fighter jets.

NM

Yes, but civilian casualties have happened in every conflict since the dawn of time. Always has happened and always will if there is conflict. Innocent Israelis are killed in suicide bombings on a weekly basis as well.

I agree with the fact that Hezbollah has brought this to the Lebanese people and they should be held accountable. The Lebanese government cannot allow a rogue element in it's nation to run rampant. It creates anarchy.

Livinginthe past
07-21-2006, 06:58 PM
Yes, but civilian casualties have happened in every conflict since the dawn of time. Always has happened and always will if there is conflict. Innocent Israelis are killed in suicide bombings on a weekly basis as well.

I agree with the fact that Hezbollah has brought this to the Lebanese people and they should be held accountable. The Lebanese government cannot allow a rogue element in it's nation to run rampant. It creates anarchy.

I have seen this story numerous times over the last couple of days.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5182564.stm

How can you possibly account for officially sanctioned actions such as these?

The Israeli army tells these civilians to evacuate their homes, they promptly agree to do so and flee.

Shortly afterwards their convoy is bombed by Israeli fighter planes - women and children are killed and maimed.

These types are not incidental to attacking a Hezbollah strong hold - this is attacking defenceless women and children.

Its the stuff of war crimes.

NM

83-Steelers-43
07-21-2006, 08:46 PM
Yes, but civilian casualties have happened in every conflict since the dawn of time. Always has happened and always will if there is conflict. Innocent Israelis are killed in suicide bombings on a weekly basis as well.

Excellent point but shhhhhh.........:rolleyes:

tony hipchest
07-21-2006, 08:50 PM
I have seen this story numerous times over the last couple of days.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5182564.stm

How can you possibly account for officially sanctioned actions such as these?

The Israeli army tells these civilians to evacuate their homes, they promptly agree to do so and flee.

Shortly afterwards their convoy is bombed by Israeli fighter planes - women and children are killed and maimed.

These types are not incidental to attacking a Hezbollah strong hold - this is attacking defenceless women and children.

Its the stuff of war crimes.

NM smart bombs never claimed to be geniuses

Hammer67
07-21-2006, 10:09 PM
War is hell...unfortunately.

War crimes, though, are groups like Hezbollah breaking Geneva conventions and storing weapons in mosques and hospitals. As well as recruiting children as suicide bombers. Nothing good comes out of any of it but I don't blame Israel in finally taking a stance.

MasterOfPuppets
07-22-2006, 02:14 AM
I dont remember the Lebanese taking any sort of referendum on its foreign policy regarding its actions towards the Hezbollah, and by extension Israel.
your right! and why do you think that is? the silence is deafening...

Religious fanatics, under the guise of politicians, have caused this unholy mess - I really can see any justification whatsoever for killing and maiming the general population who had absolutely no say in this fiasco.
again,you're right! lebanese politicians are supporting the terrorist.thats why they won't work with the israeli's to rid thier country of hezbollah.

Oh, and I absolutely despise the use of the term 'collateral damage' to describe the murder of civilians.
have you not found it strange that there has been no news reported on hezbollah casualties? of the 300+ people killed in lebanon,they would have you believe that everyone was a innocent civilian..can you say propaganda?

If fate had treated us a little differently, it could well have been me and you scrambling for our lives and being driven from our home by Israeli troops, and then having our convoy then blown to pieces by fighter jets.
fate could also have us living in israel,and having a rocket that came from lebanon come through our living room window.

NM

....

Livinginthe past
07-22-2006, 04:35 AM
your right! and why do you think that is? the silence is deafening...

I will be honest here. I don't know what you mean.

How do you mean the silence is deafening?

My point was ; the general population of Lebanon have not had the chance to vote on their governments position regarding Hezbollah.

So why should they be held accountable?

again,you're right! lebanese politicians are supporting the terrorist.thats why they won't work with the israeli's to rid thier country of hezbollah.

I fully understand why the Israeli army pinpoints leaders of the Hezbollah movement and assasinates them.

I happen to believe that it is only having the effect of making these people martyrs and strengthening their cause.

Politicians should be paying the price, not innocent children.

have you not found it strange that there has been no news reported on hezbollah casualties? of the 300+ people killed in lebanon,they would have you believe that everyone was a innocent civilian..can you say propaganda?

Sure, it goes without saying both sides bend the news the serve their own purposes.

Of the 300+ people killed in Lebanon the vast majority should be Hezbollah - however, they are not.

Its the actual term 'collatarol damage' that I hate - it sounds like something you would put on an automobile insurance claim form.

fate could also have us living in israel,and having a rocket that came from lebanon come through our living room window.

Good point.

And unless Israel is intending to wipe out the population of Lebanon, then they can expect many more rockets through the windows of civilians homes.

The Hezbollah and its fighters will not be cowed by shows of force such as the Israeli's are now demonstrating.

They are used to being the underdog, and being heavily outmanned.

Nothing is being solved here.

NM

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-22-2006, 08:35 AM
unless Israel is intending to wipe out the population of Lebanon, then they can expect many more rockets through the windows of civilians homes.

The Hezbollah and its fighters will not be cowed by shows of force such as the Israeli's are now demonstrating.
They are used to being the underdog, and being heavily outmanned.

Nothing is being solved here.

NM

Modern history has shown that the Arab armies are very often overrated..During the First Persian Gulf War..we had media across the world talking about how the war was the start of WWIII..an kept emphasizing that Iraq had the 4th largest army in the world. The Arab translators that travelled with us (Who were western educated)..told me that promotions and leadership positions were appointed based on family ties and affiliations...therefore the common soldier had no incentive to "be the best that he could be"...and the Officers had no incentive to learn about modern warfare.
Religion only goes so far on the battle field. I remember one Iraqi soldier telling me that he was "ready to fight" until the tank to his left blew up..the tank to his right blew up..and he still had never seen the enemy.
Hezbollah CANNOT stand up to well-trained Israeli forces...they will skulk back into their rat-holes and blend into the population...to continue their war on women and children at a late time...

steelfan 92
07-22-2006, 09:41 AM
bush wil get involved faster then it took him to get involved in hurricane katrina

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-22-2006, 10:06 AM
bush wil get involved faster then it took him to get involved in hurricane katrina

actually....no.

Israel needs no help in taking out rag-bag wannabe soldiers. We may supply equipment..but never soldiers, unless the Arab nations as a whole want to get involved.

MasterOfPuppets
07-23-2006, 05:42 PM
I will be honest here. I don't know what you mean.

How do you mean the silence is deafening?
by that I mean,since the Lebanese government isn't speaking out against hezbollah says volumes. after all,it was hezbollah who brought this death and destruction to the Lebanese people.

My point was ; the general population of Lebanon have not had the chance to vote on their governments position regarding Hezbollah.
Lebanon is a democratic state. so I'm assuming the general population voted there leaders into office to speak for and make decisions for the population.

So why should they be held accountable?
they shouldn't be,there government should. an easy solution to this would be for them to tell hezbollah to vacate the country and not come back.



I fully understand why the Israeli army pinpoints leaders of the Hezbollah movement and assasinates them.

I happen to believe that it is only having the effect of making these people martyrs and strengthening their cause.
and their cause is?...kill Israelis...how do you deal with someone that is hell bent on killing you? invite them over for tea and crumpets?

Politicians should be paying the price, not innocent children.
I agree!!!



Sure, it goes without saying both sides bend the news the serve their own purposes.

Of the 300+ people killed in Lebanon the vast majority should be Hezbollah - however, they are not.
and you know this how? didn't we just agree on the propaganda thing?

Its the actual term 'collatarol damage' that I hate - it sounds like something you would put on an automobile insurance claim form.



Good point.

And unless Israel is intending to wipe out the population of Lebanon, then they can expect many more rockets through the windows of civilians homes.
so then what would you suggest? that they do nothing and just be content with watching their civilians die?

The Hezbollah and its fighters will not be cowed by shows of force such as the Israeli's are now demonstrating.

They are used to being the underdog, and being heavily outmanned.

Nothing is being solved here.


NM
...

Hammer67
07-24-2006, 06:52 AM
Nothing is being solved here.

NM

Then how would you solve it? What is your option for Israel? What would you do if you were them and a terrorist group killed and/or abducted some of your soldiers along your border? A border you withdrew to under negotiations?

Livinginthe past
07-24-2006, 07:17 AM
by that I mean,since the Lebanese government isn't speaking out against hezbollah says volumes. after all,it was hezbollah who brought this death and destruction to the Lebanese people.

The Lebanese government isn't speaking out against Hezbollah, because large parts of it are owned by that very same organisation.

Are you aware that over 10,000 Lebanese and Palestinians are currently being held in detention camps, many of whom are being so without charge?

By Israels own admission Lebanese detainees are being held as 'bargaining chips' and not for any crime they have committed - innocent civilians are being imprisoned so that Israel can trade them at a later date for their soldiers .

Im sure you can understand why I have underlined the two words in the last paragraph.

Most have now spent 10 years in secret and isolated detention (and many are still there or have been replaced by other abductees)." The "civilized world" rails about the three IDF prisoners of war, yet is unconcerned about 10,000 Arab victims because they're Muslims, not white enough, and no criticism of Israel is allowed or tolerated publicly for whatever it does.

Lebanon is a democratic state. so I'm assuming the general population voted there leaders into office to speak for and make decisions for the population.

I am sure you are aware that the civilian population cannot control the actions of its government. Who is to say that there was even an anti-Hezbollah party that you could even vote for?

Can you tell me that there was?

they shouldn't be,there government should. an easy solution to this would be for them to tell hezbollah to vacate the country and not come back.

Hezbollah are not that easily seperated from Lebanon.

Whilst the injustice of of all those imprisoned Muslim bargaining chips remains - then groups like Hezbollah will enjoy a healthy membership.

and their cause is?...kill Israelis...how do you deal with someone that is hell bent on killing you? invite them over for tea and crumpets?

You look at the genuine root causes - the occupation of Palestine for a start.

Its all very well taking this blase attitude to death, but even if Israel eliminate the Muslim population of lebanon and Palestine in its entirety there are plenty more Muslims countries who wont be so easily bullied.

so then what would you suggest? that they do nothing and just be content with watching their civilians die?

I will post my thoughts on this in reply to Hammer67's post.

NM

Livinginthe past
07-24-2006, 07:35 AM
Then how would you solve it? What is your option for Israel? What would you do if you were them and a terrorist group killed and/or abducted some of your soldiers along your border? A border you withdrew to under negotiations?

Well first things first.

As a civilian non-politician I dont have to formulate any solutions at all for this crisis, but you dont have to have the mind of a Greek philosopher to realise the current situation has no happy ending in its future.

I can see that Israel is doing the wrong thing with out necessarily having to know all the right things they must do.

Israel needs to begin by releasing its bargaining chip hostages - civilians who have committed no crime other than to be born in the wrong country.

As far as I am aware, soldiers have signed up to the possibility of kill or be killed - children and women haven't.

There has already been critcism of Hezbollah by prominent Arab countries such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia - but while the US continues to fund Israel with absolute impunity then the Irans and Syrias of this world will continue to view this war as a small element of a larger anti-Muslim picture.

To this end it is the US and the large Arab nations that a solution lies within - these are the paymasters, the countries who fuel both ends of this war.

Im afraid that Bush and his Iranian and Syrian counterparts are using this situation as an opportunity to , indirectly, flex their military might.

Despite the massive bloodshed in Lebanon we have so far avoided an all out conflict between Arab and Christian nations - in the current atmosphere all it would take is another attack on American soil, or a US invasion of another Arab country and we have WW3 on our hands.

This is what I truly believe - the leaders of the major countries need to sit down and thrash out a workable solution because Armegeddon may only be just a terrorist atack away.

NM

Hammer67
07-24-2006, 12:37 PM
Well first things first.

As a civilian non-politician I dont have to formulate any solutions at all for this crisis, but you dont have to have the mind of a Greek philosopher to realise the current situation has no happy ending in its future.

I can see that Israel is doing the wrong thing with out necessarily having to know all the right things they must do.

Israel needs to begin by releasing its bargaining chip hostages - civilians who have committed no crime other than to be born in the wrong country.

As far as I am aware, soldiers have signed up to the possibility of kill or be killed - children and women haven't.

There has already been critcism of Hezbollah by prominent Arab countries such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia - but while the US continues to fund Israel with absolute impunity then the Irans and Syrias of this world will continue to view this war as a small element of a larger anti-Muslim picture.

To this end it is the US and the large Arab nations that a solution lies within - these are the paymasters, the countries who fuel both ends of this war.

Im afraid that Bush and his Iranian and Syrian counterparts are using this situation as an opportunity to , indirectly, flex their military might.

Despite the massive bloodshed in Lebanon we have so far avoided an all out conflict between Arab and Christian nations - in the current atmosphere all it would take is another attack on American soil, or a US invasion of another Arab country and we have WW3 on our hands.

This is what I truly believe - the leaders of the major countries need to sit down and thrash out a workable solution because Armegeddon may only be just a terrorist atack away.

NM

See, I could respect an opinion of this nature if there was a contrasting & intelligent counter process that explained the RIGHT thing they should be doing. I am not saying you are a part of the liberal left, but this is the biggest gripe I have with criticism they present. As a moderate, I look to who has answers and action.

How can one criticize without having a counter point to offer? And, one that hasn't been tried repeatedly in the past (i.e. Israel negotiating with Hamas, Palestine, Hezbollah, etc.). What we see if we follow the history of the conflict is Israel REACTING to things the above mentioned groups do…Look at the major withdrawals from Gaza and southern Lebanon over the last couple of years. Everything was going fine until the suicide bombings began and then Israel would have to counter with a missile strike (not aimed at kids and puppies, mind you) right at a major leader of Hamas or Hezbollah. At some point, they have to fight back. Israel can give and give and give but you know as well as I that these groups want Israelis dead or gone. Period. How do you negotiate with this?

People complain about Bush and his religious beliefs in one breath but then defend the blatant religious persecution perpetuated by Islamic militants all over the world. What needs to happen is moderate Muslims need to snuff out these militants and learn to accept Israel. Why can't they coexist?

Again, alternative solutions should be presented in order to convince people of the validity of criticism. The things you mention above have been part of many negotiations in the past. Clearly it hasn't worked. No offense, my friend, I see your point but I am struggling to comprehend on how you came to your conclusions/criticism based on a historical perspective.

:hunch:

Livinginthe past
07-25-2006, 01:15 AM
See, I could respect an opinion of this nature if there was a contrasting & intelligent counter process that explained the RIGHT thing they should be doing. I am not saying you are a part of the liberal left, but this is the biggest gripe I have with criticism they present. As a moderate, I look to who has answers and action.

How can one criticize without having a counter point to offer? And, one that hasn't been tried repeatedly in the past (i.e. Israel negotiating with Hamas, Palestine, Hezbollah, etc.). What we see if we follow the history of the conflict is Israel REACTING to things the above mentioned groups do…Look at the major withdrawals from Gaza and southern Lebanon over the last couple of years. Everything was going fine until the suicide bombings began and then Israel would have to counter with a missile strike (not aimed at kids and puppies, mind you) right at a major leader of Hamas or Hezbollah. At some point, they have to fight back. Israel can give and give and give but you know as well as I that these groups want Israelis dead or gone. Period. How do you negotiate with this?

People complain about Bush and his religious beliefs in one breath but then defend the blatant religious persecution perpetuated by Islamic militants all over the world. What needs to happen is moderate Muslims need to snuff out these militants and learn to accept Israel. Why can't they coexist?

Again, alternative solutions should be presented in order to convince people of the validity of criticism. The things you mention above have been part of many negotiations in the past. Clearly it hasn't worked. No offense, my friend, I see your point but I am struggling to comprehend on how you came to your conclusions/criticism based on a historical perspective.

:hunch:

My point was, that you do not have to have conclusive alternatives to realise the current course of action is completely amoral, however I did offer you some anyway.

You obviously didn't feel the need to to respond to anything I wrote - such as the 10,000 Arab prisoners that are kept in conditions that make Guantanamo Bay look like the Hilton.

Im afraid that you also have your timeline a little confused.

Have you forgotten already that Israel has a rich history of turning to terrorism in order to establish itself on the world stage?

Do you remember an organisation by the name of Irgun?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

They were responsible for proven atrocities - the rounding up and murder of 250 Arab men women and children from a single village.

This 'organisation' was made up of Jewish nationalists whose children now comprise the Israeli establishment.

During the 1930's and 40's it planted bombs aross Palestine, targetting both British soldiers and Palestinian civilians.

It had two goals : to drive out British imperialists out, and to terrorise the Palestinian population into unconditionally accepting the creation of Israel.

Ehud Olmert, Israels "war on terror" Prime Minister can hardly condemn Irgun - he spent the first 3 years of his life living in one of their terror training camps while his parents worked as gun runners.

Tzipi Livni, the foreign minister widely tipped as a future PM, is the daughter of the Irguns director of military operations, a mastermind of civilian slaughter.

If Israel and its supporters could remember their own families history of terrorism they would see what a futile campaign against terror theirs is.

When Jewish people were deprived of their own state, a section of the population took up arms and fought for one - Hezbollah anyone?

Palestinians will not suffer this injustice sitting on their hands, especially when Iraeli reprisals lead to a 10-1 kill rate against them.

As I have stated before, Hamas and Hezbollah will not be silenced by military means, they will only stop their war of terror once they are given a portion of what they demand.


How do we know this?

Because its exactly what it took to satisfy the Israeli terrorists 70 years ago.

You say you cannot understand my opinions based upon a historical perspective.

Perhaps you would do well to remember that alot of persecuted states have had to engage in their fair share of bloodshed to establish themselves.

Palestinians are just the same.

NM

Hammer67
07-25-2006, 11:33 AM
My point was, that you do not have to have conclusive alternatives to realise the current course of action is completely amoral, however I did offer you some anyway.

You obviously didn't feel the need to to respond to anything I wrote - such as the 10,000 Arab prisoners that are kept in conditions that make Guantanamo Bay look like the Hilton.

Im afraid that you also have your timeline a little confused.

Have you forgotten already that Israel has a rich history of turning to terrorism in order to establish itself on the world stage?

Do you remember an organisation by the name of Irgun?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

They were responsible for proven atrocities - the rounding up and murder of 250 Arab men women and children from a single village.

This 'organisation' was made up of Jewish nationalists whose children now comprise the Israeli establishment.

During the 1930's and 40's it planted bombs aross Palestine, targetting both British soldiers and Palestinian civilians.

It had two goals : to drive out British imperialists out, and to terrorise the Palestinian population into unconditionally accepting the creation of Israel.

Ehud Olmert, Israels "war on terror" Prime Minister can hardly condemn Irgun - he spent the first 3 years of his life living in one of their terror training camps while his parents worked as gun runners.

Tzipi Livni, the foreign minister widely tipped as a future PM, is the daughter of the Irguns director of military operations, a mastermind of civilian slaughter.

If Israel and its supporters could remember their own families history of terrorism they would see what a futile campaign against terror theirs is.

When Jewish people were deprived of their own state, a section of the population took up arms and fought for one - Hezbollah anyone?

Palestinians will not suffer this injustice sitting on their hands, especially when Iraeli reprisals lead to a 10-1 kill rate against them.

As I have stated before, Hamas and Hezbollah will not be silenced by military means, they will only stop their war of terror once they are given a portion of what they demand.


How do we know this?

Because its exactly what it took to satisfy the Israeli terrorists 70 years ago.

You say you cannot understand my opinions based upon a historical perspective.

Perhaps you would do well to remember that alot of persecuted states have had to engage in their fair share of bloodshed to establish themselves.

Palestinians are just the same.

NM
No offense, my friend, but you must be confused. I don’t' want to reiterate the history of Israel as you can research that that rather easily.

I do want to mention that Irgun was disbanded in 1948…the same year Israel itself was created. The Israeli government denounced it and other militant groups as terrorists. THIS IS WHAT THEY WANT LEBANON TO DO WITH HEZBOLLAH!!!!

And, do you know why Irgun even started? It was a splinter group of Jewish immigrants reacting to attacks by Arabs. Jewish immigrants began buying land in the early part of the 20th century (from Arab landowners which were few and far between. Arabs were mostly nomadic).

So, Israel, once recognized as a nation after WWII, realized that they could not have militant groups acting out as it would hurt their cause and perception in the Middle East and the world at large.

So, technically, your point doesn't make sense or better yet even provides Israel with a motive for its current actions. It wants surrounding nations to denounce the activities of militant groups acting apart from the governments, themselves. Makes sense to me…

Dude, do you know what Hezbollah demands? They don't want land. They don't want a nation of their own. They demand that the Jews all die. What is Israel supposed to do in order to "appease" them?

Militan Islam is a plague in this world. Unlike any other. Until mainstream Muslims stand up and denounce their activities, it will never go away and people will be forced to fight it.

And, to criticize without a solution doesn't help anyone.

Hawk Believer
07-25-2006, 07:02 PM
The good news for Israel: They say they killed a senior leader of Hezbollah today in a bombing raid.

The good news for Hezbollah: Israel killed at least 2 (likely 4) UN observers who were at an identified position in Lebanon.

The UN is so feckless this won't change anything about Israel's campaign IMO. It sure won't help them in the global PR front. Now India is going to be pissed at Israel. But at the same time, Israel couldn't really care less about global PR.

Hawk Believer
07-25-2006, 07:15 PM
Regarding solutions to the Palestinian problem... I heard one person saying that people who followed the Middle East during the first half of Israel's existance would likely have thought the chances of Jordan and Eygpt ever accepting Israel and having quasi-normal diplomatic relationship would always have been impossible. Yet somehow, after numerous wars and land concession treaties, they seem to tolerate eachother's presence.

I am not old enough to remember the details about how that peace was achieved. I am curious to see if any of you might have comments on why that peace seems to have endured.

One big difference I see between the aforementioned treaties and the current situation is that Israel is no longer having to deal with nations as their primary enemy, but rather extremist militias. I suppose there is more moderation and ability to enforce treaties with recognized nations. I guess its the same reason why the current "War on Terror" is so much more complicated to prosecute.

Livinginthe past
07-26-2006, 01:17 AM
No offense, my friend, but you must be confused. I don’t' want to reiterate the history of Israel as you can research that that rather easily.

I do want to mention that Irgun was disbanded in 1948…the same year Israel itself was created. The Israeli government denounced it and other militant groups as terrorists. THIS IS WHAT THEY WANT LEBANON TO DO WITH HEZBOLLAH!!!!.

Again you are not understanding the timeline even though I have laid it out for you.

Don't you find it an amazing 'coincidence' that Irgun was disbanded just after Israel was given its own state?

The 'terrorist' group Irgun was set up to ensure an Israeli state came into existence - once it had - there was no further need for it.

Hezbollah will not disappear, or be wiped from existence until at least some of their demands are met.

I cannot make this any clearer for you.

And, do you know why Irgun even started? It was a splinter group of Jewish immigrants reacting to attacks by Arabs. Jewish immigrants began buying land in the early part of the 20th century (from Arab landowners which were few and far between. Arabs were mostly nomadic)..

So, Israel, once recognized as a nation after WWII, realized that they could not have militant groups acting out as it would hurt their cause and perception in the Middle East and the world at large.

Sorry, thats just more rubbish.

I already explained to you at length about why it was set up.

It was set up to enable the creation of an Israeli state.

Simple as that.

I'll tell you right now - Israel does not give crap what the rest of the world thinks of it - I presume you have now read the news about their deliberate bombings of UN observers - more unfortunate 'collatarol damage' im sure!!!

So, technically, your point doesn't make sense or better yet even provides Israel with a motive for its current actions. It wants surrounding nations to denounce the activities of militant groups acting apart from the governments, themselves. Makes sense to me….

Yet Israel was only able to come into existence because it set up its own terrorist organisation.

As I have stated, the next generation of this organisation now rule Israel.

Dude, do you know what Hezbollah demands? They don't want land. They don't want a nation of their own. They demand that the Jews all die. What is Israel supposed to do in order to "appease" them?.

Quite frankly im appalled that people cannot seem to seperate dumb rhetoric and literal religious script from what the Arab population of that area want.

All Muslims want all Jews to die right?

Militan Islam is a plague in this world. Unlike any other. Until mainstream Muslims stand up and denounce their activities, it will never go away and people will be forced to fight it.

And, to criticize without a solution doesn't help anyone.

I have showed you a potential solution, and its reliant upon the release of 10,000 illegally imprisoned Arabs and the awarding of land to a sovereign Palestinian state with no Israeli overlords.

Why wont you address this point?

We aren't talking football tactics and the 3-4 defense here - its not quite so easy to formulate solutions to a political problem.


NM

MattsMe
07-26-2006, 03:42 AM
Originally Posted by Hammer67
Dude, do you know what Hezbollah demands? They don't want land. They don't want a nation of their own. They demand that the Jews all die. What is Israel supposed to do in order to "appease" them?.

And here's the reply:


Originally Posted by Livinginthe past
Quite frankly im appalled that people cannot seem to seperate dumb rhetoric and literal religious script from what the Arab population of that area want.

All Muslims want all Jews to die right?

I hope I'm not the only one that sees the irony in the reply.

Hammer67
07-26-2006, 06:00 AM
And here's the reply:



I hope I'm not the only one that sees the irony in the reply.

You're not....I must be discussing this with a brick wall. :sofunny:

Hammer67
07-26-2006, 06:21 AM
Again you are not understanding the timeline even though I have laid it out for you.
Don't you find it an amazing 'coincidence' that Irgun was disbanded just after Israel was given its own state?
The 'terrorist' group Irgun was set up to ensure an Israeli state came into existence - once it had - there was no further need for it.

Hezbollah will not disappear, or be wiped from existence until at least some of their demands are met.
I cannot make this any clearer for you.

I understand the timeline perfectly well...that isn't the issue, you are misintepurreting history. Read up on them a little more. Clarity, also isn't the issue.


Sorry, thats just more rubbish.
I already explained to you at length about why it was set up.
It was set up to enable the creation of an Israeli state.
Simple as that.

Uh..rubbish says who? You? Ok...it's you against history my friend. I side with history.

I'll tell you right now - Israel does not give crap what the rest of the world thinks of it - I presume you have now read the news about their deliberate bombings of UN observers - more unfortunate 'collatarol damage' im sure!!!

Damn right they don't care what the rest of the world thinks...and neither would I.

Yet Israel was only able to come into existence because it set up its own terrorist organisation.

Dumb. This organization existed long before what would become Israel. Please explain, for those of us keeping score at home, the history of this organization and why they came in to existence. Please include references from valid sources. Then I might take your point more seriously.

As I have stated, the next generation of this organisation now rule Israel.

And the next generation of Nazis rule germany, right? :rolleyes: :dang:


Quite frankly im appalled that people cannot seem to seperate dumb rhetoric and literal religious script from what the Arab population of that area want.

All Muslims want all Jews to die right?

This is so wrong I should almost ignore it. I said HEZBOLLAH, not "all Muslims." How clear should I be on this point?

Dumb rhetoric? You obviously don't know much about Hezbollah based on your arguments....I will leave it to you to do your own research, my friend. But here is a couple quotes to give you an idea of some of the "demands" they want met (from a simple wiki search).

* "The Jews invented the legend of the Nazi atrocities...Anyone who reads the Koran and the holy writings of the monotheistic religions sees what they did to the prophets, and what acts of madness and slaughter the Jews carried out throughout history... Anyone who reads these texts cannot think of co-existence with them, of peace with them, or about accepting their presence, not only in Palestine of 1948 but even in a small village in Palestine, because they are a cancer which is liable to spread again at any moment."
o Hassan Nasrallah, April 9, 2000.

* "If they [the Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them world wide."
o Hassan Nasrallah, October 22, 2002.


I have showed you a potential solution, and its reliant upon the release of 10,000 illegally imprisoned Arabs and the awarding of land to a sovereign Palestinian state with no Israeli overlords.

Why wont you address this point?

I have no idea who you are referring to. Can you list these prisoners and why they were arrested and prove their innocence? If you can, I am sure they are al looking for good lawyers.


We aren't talking football tactics and the 3-4 defense here - its not quite so easy to formulate solutions to a political problem.

Clearly you have demonstrated that....

I see we can take this conversation no further. I don't see how you can enlighten me on the subject based on your knowledge and I don't think you will be looking at anything differently at any time soon...So, I bow out and move on to conversation more interesting.

Livinginthe past
07-26-2006, 09:48 AM
Well hammer.

Feel free to wander off to more interesting topics.

Your first couple of replies to my last post were worthy of a politician - you must be very proud.

Instead of addressing the fact that Israel was borne out of terrorist actions - principally Irgun - you chose to tell me to 'read up a little more' - thats quite an intelligent retort.

I cannot quite believe that you would deny the link between Irgun and the establishment of Israel as a state.

Here is a link to the ridiculously pro-Israel webiste that explains it.

The History of the birth of the state of Israel is complex and involved. Many have sacrificed much to bring the Jewish State into existence. One such body was the Irgun also know as the Etzel group. The Irgun was a military group that refused to bow to political pressures in securing a state for the Jewish people. Much of the modern Israeli politics today stem from the Irgun and the organization from which they broke, the Hagganah.

The opposition party, led by those valiant soldiers in the Irgun became what is known today as the "Likud."

http://www.jewishmag.com/9mag/IRGUN/irgun.htm

It also highlights the fact that the generation born to members of Irgun make up Likud.

I am not fabricating any of this.

The facts remain that what we know now as Israel was set up using terrorist tactics and that these terrorists have family links with the current Israeli ruling party.

Your ignorant facetious comments about Nazi's ruling Germany is disappointing - I have proved through pro-Israel weblinks that Likud membership is made up of the children of Irgun members.

NM

MasterOfPuppets
07-26-2006, 03:58 PM
:huh: And what exactly does this have to do with hezbollah and the current situation? was the former Israeli terrorist out to exterminate Arabs? seriously though,at least the Israeli group were fighting for a purpose (a place to call home ) as compared to hezbollah and the other Arab radicals who's mission is the annihilation of Israeli Jews. be careful drinking Arab kool aid, the sand goes down kinda rough.

Livinginthe past
07-27-2006, 12:47 AM
:huh: And what exactly does this have to do with hezbollah and the current situation? was the former Israeli terrorist out to exterminate Arabs? seriously though,at least the Israeli group were fighting for a purpose (a place to call home ) as compared to hezbollah and the other Arab radicals who's mission is the annihilation of Israeli Jews. be careful drinking Arab kool aid, the sand goes down kinda rough.

What does it have to do with Hezbollah and the current situation?

Just about everything.

That land in the part of the world was re-divided out to allow the Jewish people to have somewhere to call home.

Hezbollah are fighting so that Palestinians can live under their own rule on a section of land they can also call their own.

The rhetoric about wiping out Israel is borne out frustration and hatred at the way the Arabs have been oppressed - the same as the Jews were fed up of being dictated to and being moved from pillar to post.

My point was, that the Jews used terrorist tactics in order to secure a homeland - once they decided on that action it was only a matter of time and bloodshed before they got a partial agreement to what they wanted.

They, above everyone else, should realise the futility in this attacks against Hezbollah - they arent working - just creating more and more martyrs to the cause and more and more bitter generations.

Palestine will have their own sovereign land, its just a case of how many people must be buried before it happens

NM

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-27-2006, 08:40 AM
Palestine will have their own sovereign land, its just a case of how many people must be buried before it happens

NM

..and we come full circle where you are now claiming (again) that they have some sort of right to land ...but as I have explained in detail in a previous post...they have no historical or "sovereign" right to the land in that region.

Livinginthe past
07-27-2006, 08:54 AM
..and we come full circle where you are now claiming (again) that they have some sort of right to land ...but as I have explained in detail in a previous post...they have no historical or "sovereign" right to the land in that region.

It matters very little whether people such as yourselves feel that they have no right to land to call their own.

All that matters is that they, themselves, believe it and will continue to fight for it.

Maybe, in a perfect world, this matter could resolved using the logic you show - maybe the Palestinians have no real right to settle - but the fact of the situation is that they are there now.

That is the reality we have to deal with.

This wont be settled like a boundary claim in your backyard - there is no clear cut law or precedent.

Either Israel agree to let Palestine have control of their own slice of land or they continue the endless cycle of killing.

NM

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-27-2006, 09:40 AM
It matters very little whether people such as yourselves feel that they have no right to land to call their own.
All that matters is that they, themselves, believe it and will continue to fight for it.

Maybe, in a perfect world, this matter could resolved using the logic you show - maybe the Palestinians have no real right to settle - but the fact of the situation is that they are there now.

That is the reality we have to deal with.

This wont be settled like a boundary claim in your backyard - there is no clear cut law or precedent.


NM

You talk about the logic and reality of the situation in Israel..

1) Please let me know if you believe the reality is that the Arab world does not want a "piece" of Israel..but rather the complete end of Israel as a nation...which one?

2) Is it true or not (Historically..not what I or you think) that there has never been a "state of Palestine" ruled or occupied primarily by those people who now call themselves Palestinians..and that the Arab nations have convinced the last few generations of Palestinians that they do in fact have an historic claim to the land. (through classroom and through religious teaching)?

3) Is it true that the Nation of Israel HAS made efforts for the Palestinian people to both occupy and work in the country, and these efforts have been either hampered or halted because of insurgent activity?

4) Although the insurgents may not speak for all muslims..is it true or not that the people of that region are now overwhemingly supporting them?

I support an effort for both Arab and Israeli people to live in the region..but the REALITY of the situation is that ONE of those groups will stop at nothing less then the destruction of the other. There is NO disputing that fact since it is part of their teaching and has came from the mouth of their leaders.
Rhetoric about the "POW's" in Israel will always seem flat and empty as long as Israel's enemys continue to spout "Total Destruction".
Although I support the effort for co-habitation..it is OBVIOUS which people will never allow it.

Livinginthe past
07-27-2006, 01:36 PM
You talk about the logic and reality of the situation in Israel..

1) Please let me know if you believe the reality is that the Arab world does not want a "piece" of Israel..but rather the complete end of Israel as a nation...which one?

2) Is it true or not (Historically..not what I or you think) that there has never been a "state of Palestine" ruled or occupied primarily by those people who now call themselves Palestinians..and that the Arab nations have convinced the last few generations of Palestinians that they do in fact have an historic claim to the land. (through classroom and through religious teaching)?

3) Is it true that the Nation of Israel HAS made efforts for the Palestinian people to both occupy and work in the country, and these efforts have been either hampered or halted because of insurgent activity?

4) Although the insurgents may not speak for all muslims..is it true or not that the people of that region are now overwhemingly supporting them?

I support an effort for both Arab and Israeli people to live in the region..but the REALITY of the situation is that ONE of those groups will stop at nothing less then the destruction of the other. There is NO disputing that fact since it is part of their teaching and has came from the mouth of their leaders.
Rhetoric about the "POW's" in Israel will always seem flat and empty as long as Israel's enemys continue to spout "Total Destruction".
Although I support the effort for co-habitation..it is OBVIOUS which people will never allow it.

1. The Arab world often declares it wants the end of the Israeli state.

I wont deny that.

But when Irgun declared war on the British and the Arabs, it was with the intention of claiming all the land between the Jordan River and the Med.

However, they settled for less - the creation of Israel within more confined boundaries.

It may well be coated in blood, but these are still negotiations like any other - both parties aim for the sky but eventually have to find a compromise.

It is also something of a chicken and egg scenario - its a little like me locking you in enclosed conditions and assaulting you every few days - and then declaring - "Look I cannot let this man go free - he is clearly angry at me - therefore I must keep him in confinement so he does not seek revenge."

It is the fact that I keep you locked up that causes a large part of the emnity I hold towards you in the first place.

2. That is true. There has never been a legitimate state of Palestine.

There was also never a legitimate state of Israel before the Jews fought tooth and nail for it.

This is why Israel should understand exactly where Hezbollah are coming from - the war of terror they wage upon Israel is the exact same tactics as used by Israel to launch its own state.

3. The Nation of Israel has made only token, insulting efforts to incorporate the Arab people to live and work with in its boundaries.

If you find daily armed checkpoints a suitable way to begin the day as a law abiding citizen, then Israel have provided sufficient means for Arabs to live day to day.

If you think that nightime curfews enforced for your 'own good' a respectable way to finish your day then the Israeli's have done what is expected of them.

Arabs/ Palestinians do not, on the whole however , want to be kept as malnourished pets in a steel wired zoo.

Just because past 'attempts at compromise have not worked, it is no reason to concede this line of thinking - its is the only way out of this siutation

4. Civilians, in recent weeks, have been divided in their support of Hezbollah and its tactics. There have been numerous uprisings of civilians not allowing terrorists to use their part of the city to launch attacks against the Israeli's.

having said that, who would you expect them to back?

Hezbollah is an integral part of their lives - it funds their hospitals, it pays for their schools - where is the sense, other than the sense of self preservation, in giving their loyalty to the Israeli's?

The same Israelis that have on two seperate occasions asked groups of civilians to move from their homes - and then mercilessly bombed them - sending women and children to a painful death?

To me, it is not obvious that these people cannot live side by side.

Who would have thought that the Jews would have made a state for themselves and become allies with the British during WW2 - the same British they were intent on driving out of their 'homeland'.

Israel needs to start making real concessions - not half hearted agreements that they will not sit well with the Arabs.

This includes releasing a large majority of the people being imprisoned unlawfully - another chicken and egg situation.

Lets be clear about this, until Israel pulls this conflict out of a tailspin they are only condemning their own people do death from continued terrorist attacks.

The time has arrived to stop dwelling on what has been done and said in the past and start working towards a better future.

NM

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-27-2006, 02:27 PM
1. The Arab world often declares it wants the end of the Israeli state.

I wont deny that.

But when Irgun declared war on the British and the Arabs, it was with the intention of claiming all the land between the Jordan River and the Med.

However, they settled for less - the creation of Israel within more confined boundaries.

It may well be coated in blood, but these are still negotiations like any other - both parties aim for the sky but eventually have to find a compromise.

It is also something of a chicken and egg scenario - its a little like me locking you in enclosed conditions and assaulting you every few days - and then declaring - "Look I cannot let this man go free - he is clearly angry at me - therefore I must keep him in confinement so he does not seek revenge."

It is the fact that I keep you locked up that causes a large part of the emnity I hold towards you in the first place.

2. That is true. There has never been a legitimate state of Palestine.

There was also never a legitimate state of Israel before the Jews fought tooth and nail for it.
This is why Israel should understand exactly where Hezbollah are coming from - the war of terror they wage upon Israel is the exact same tactics as used by Israel to launch its own state.

3. The Nation of Israel has made only token, insulting efforts to incorporate the Arab people to live and work with in its boundaries.

If you find daily armed checkpoints a suitable way to begin the day as a law abiding citizen, then Israel have provided sufficient means for Arabs to live day to day.
If you think that nightime curfews enforced for your 'own good' a respectable way to finish your day then the Israeli's have done what is expected of them.

Arabs/ Palestinians do not, on the whole however , want to be kept as malnourished pets in a steel wired zoo.

Just because past 'attempts at compromise have not worked, it is no reason to concede this line of thinking - its is the only way out of this siutation

4. Civilians, in recent weeks, have been divided in their support of Hezbollah and its tactics. There have been numerous uprisings of civilians not allowing terrorists to use their part of the city to launch attacks against the Israeli's.

having said that, who would you expect them to back?

Hezbollah is an integral part of their lives - it funds their hospitals, it pays for their schools - where is the sense, other than the sense of self preservation, in giving their loyalty to the Israeli's?

The same Israelis that have on two seperate occasions asked groups of civilians to move from their homes - and then mercilessly bombed them - sending women and children to a painful death?

To me, it is not obvious that these people cannot live side by side.

Who would have thought that the Jews would have made a state for themselves and become allies with the British during WW2 - the same British they were intent on driving out of their 'homeland'.

Israel needs to start making real concessions - not half hearted agreements that they will not sit well with the Arabs.
This includes releasing a large majority of the people being imprisoned unlawfully - another chicken and egg situation.

Lets be clear about this, until Israel pulls this conflict out of a tailspin they are only condemning their own people do death from continued terrorist attacks.

The time has arrived to stop dwelling on what has been done and said in the past and start working towards a better future.

NM


Your answer has several very Large inaccuracies..

1) You continually equate The Irgun Tsvai Leumi with Israel. One was a terrorist organization..the other a legitimate soverign state. You seem bent on making people realize the difference between Hezbollah and the common Arab...but refuse to make that destinction between an obsolete terrorist organization and the common Israeli.

2)There was, in fact, a historic sovereign state of Israel existed form 1260 b.c.-70a.d....a fact that is irrefutable..and that the Palastinians cannot claim

3)The reason that Israel fought on the side of the British during WWII is that there was a distinct division between the common Israeli and the Irgun Tsvai Leumi. (Unlike most Arab nations which refuse to seperate themselves from Hezbollah)

4)Israel to date has signed numerous peace treaties (Regardless of whether it sits well with the citizens,..they were signed by the Arab governments) and historically it has virtually almost ALWAYS been the Arab nations that have broke these treaties. As far as checkpoints...When the Canadians (hypothetically) start walking into our malls and churches and blowing up civilian women and children because our consessions do not sit well with them..I pray that our government sits up checkposts at the borders.

Ignoring the truth and history between these people does not help the situation at all... We live in a world were we are supposed to "understand" both sides of every argument. I however refuse to legitamatize evil intent and morally corrupt acts of terror... I truly believe that tolerance without thoughtful consideration is the virtue of a man without conviction.

tony hipchest
07-27-2006, 03:08 PM
"2)There was, in fact, a historic sovereign state of Israel existed form 1260 b.c.-70a.d....a fact that is irrefutable..and that the Palastinians cannot claim"

correct. many people like to refute the historical documents that help make up the bible. some believe it was a fantasy fiction book that was written by one author and has no historical relevance at all. at one point in ancient history israel (with jerusalem as its capital) was the most powerful sovereign state in the known world. simple architecture and archaeology reflect this without being backed up with the historical documents.

king david used to be regarded as a myth yet ancient coins have been found with his name and image. (just a small example leading to the veracity of the "fables")

augustashark
07-27-2006, 05:39 PM
Litp, I don't know llt, but you have been soundly beaten in this debate! please go on, for no other reason then a good comic belly laugh! Thanks.

Livinginthe past
07-27-2006, 07:08 PM
Your answer has several very Large inaccuracies..

1) You continually equate The Irgun Tsvai Leumi with Israel. One was a terrorist organization..the other a legitimate soverign state. You seem bent on making people realize the difference between Hezbollah and the common Arab...but refuse to make that destinction between an obsolete terrorist organization and the common Israeli..

1. Im not sure why this isn't sinking in.

Irgun was the terrorist organisation that was responsible for the formation of Israel as we know it - why should I be seperating them?

They are only 'obsolete' because they acheived their objective.

It is also a fact, that ex-members and the children of ex-members hold many prominent positions within the Likud political party.

What common Israeli's are we talking about exactly?

I have not tried to make any sort of link between civilian Israeli's and Irgun - it is a link between the Israeli Govt and Irgun that I have been pointing to.

2)There was, in fact, a historic sovereign state of Israel existed form 1260 b.c.-70a.d....a fact that is irrefutable..and that the Palastinians cannot claim.

2. As great as it is that Israel have been around so long - this type of one-upmanship is not going to help us get anywhere fast.

I can tell you right now, it wasn't the fact that the Jews had history in that particular area that allowed them back into that region - it was the fact that they bombed the people who opposed the formation of the state of Israel into submission using terrorist tactics.

You serriously think the Brits and the Arabs sat around saying "maybe we should let these guys have their own state - after all they were here a long time ago"???

I think not.

Morally its a great justification, I will agree 100% on that.

In terms of real politics it's of negligible importance.


3)The reason that Israel fought on the side of the British during WWII is that there was a distinct division between the common Israeli and the Irgun Tsvai Leumi. (Unlike most Arab nations which refuse to seperate themselves from Hezbollah) .

The real reason Israel fought on the side of the British was self presrevation, simple as that.

They knew which side would be more sympathetic to their cause should they be victorious.

I would be willing to bet that mambers of Irgun fought side by side with British in WW2 - simply because - any enemy of an enemy of is my friend.

If it wsn't for Irgun - there would be no such thing as the 'common Israeli' you keep mentioning.

4)Israel to date has signed numerous peace treaties (Regardless of whether it sits well with the citizens,..they were signed by the Arab governments) and historically it has virtually almost ALWAYS been the Arab nations that have broke these treaties. As far as checkpoints...When the Canadians (hypothetically) start walking into our malls and churches and blowing up civilian women and children because our consessions do not sit well with them..I pray that our government sits up checkposts at the borders..

I am going to have to ask for evidence of Arabs being the ones to almost always being the first ones to break these treaties.

Ignoring the truth and history between these people does not help the situation at all... We live in a world were we are supposed to "understand" both sides of every argument. I however refuse to legitamatize evil intent and morally corrupt acts of terror... I truly believe that tolerance without thoughtful consideration is the virtue of a man without conviction.

I do not believe I am ignoring anything.

I am also fully aware of the history between these two peoples.

I also find people who can only see one prespective to be oversimplifying a complicated situation.

Arabs = bad guy treaty breaking terrorists

Israeli - freedom fighting good guys.

Sorry that doesnt wash with me.

Before you get too high and mighty about 'evil acts or terror' - you may wish to familairise yourself with the following story.

http://www.ariga.com/peacewatch/dy/dycg.htm

But I guess what the Jews did was ok.

They had 'history on their side' right?

NM

tony hipchest
07-27-2006, 07:28 PM
2. As great as it is that Israel have been around so long - this type of one-upmanship is not going to help us get anywhere fast.

I can tell you right now, it wasn't the fact that the Jews had history in that particular area that allowed them back into that region - it was the fact that they bombed the people who opposed the formation of the state of Israel into submission using terrorist tactics.

You serriously think the Brits and the Arabs sat around saying "maybe we should let these guys have their own state - after all they were here a long time ago"???

I think not.

Morally its a great justification, I will agree 100% on that.

In terms of real politics it's of negligible importance.

NM

politics aside, this all boils down to religion. the koran and the torah are both made up of the same 5 books of the bible. (the same 5 books that make up the 1st 5 chapters in the king james version popular amongst christians. the split of tribes and religions happens at the point of the 12 tribes of abraham. jews, christians, and muslims all know that abraham was as much of an historical figure as someone like julius caesar or ramses II.

from a religious perspective judaism is the 1st one to believe in a sole monoleithic creator. christianity expanded on that. 600-800 years later mohammed came along and his followers declared him as the true messiah. now i wont get into mohammed, but they were the "new kids on the block" as far as religions is concerned.

but at this point today more people side with the christian and jewish viewpoints than the muslim. majority rules, so they say. (i believe only 1/5 of the worlds population is islamic- could be wrong)

the palestenians are fighting an uphill battle.

Livinginthe past
07-27-2006, 08:00 PM
politics aside, this all boils down to religion. the koran and the torah are both made up of the same 5 books of the bible. (the same 5 books that make up the 1st 5 chapters in the king james version popular amongst christians. the split of tribes and religions happens at the point of the 12 tribes of abraham. jews, christians, and muslims all know that abraham was as much of an historical figure as someone like julius caesar or ramses II.

from a religious perspective judaism is the 1st one to believe in a sole monoleithic creator. christianity expanded on that. 600-800 years later mohammed came along and his followers declared him as the true messiah. now i wont get into mohammed, but they were the "new kids on the block" as far as religions is concerned.

but at this point today more people side with the christian and jewish viewpoints than the muslim. majority rules, so they say. (i believe only 1/5 of the worlds population is islamic- could be wrong)

the palestenians are fighting an uphill battle.

Thats a very valid point.

Jews and Christians have a much better job of integrating with each other than Muslims have.

There is feeling that the moderate voices of Islam are not doing enough to make themselves heard above the crazed rantings of hook handed lunatics.

There have been mutterings of discontent at Hezbollahs tactics from the Arab council (made up of countries such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia) - one would hope they could manage a little more than mutterings while their people are being slaughtered.

The Palestinians are indeed fighting an uphill battle.

NM

tony hipchest
07-27-2006, 08:09 PM
Thats a very valid point.

Jews and Christians have a much better job of integrating with each other than Muslims have.

There is feeling that the moderate voices of Islam are not doing enough to make themselves heard above the crazed rantings of hook handed lunatics.

There have been mutterings of discontent at Hezbollahs tactics from the Arab council (made up of countries such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia) - one would hope they could manage a little more than mutterings while their people are being slaughtered.

The Palestinians are indeed fighting an uphill battle.

NM
while muslims preach that the jews and western world (predominantly christian) are the devil, our writings and beliefs support that they are, infact, the followers of the "false prophet".

Hawk Believer
07-27-2006, 08:26 PM
There have been mutterings of discontent at Hezbollahs tactics from the Arab council (made up of countries such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia) - one would hope they could manage a little more than mutterings while their people are being slaughtered.


NM

I heard an interesting point made by someone regarding Iran and the Arab nations. The expert was reminding his audience that Iran is not an Arab nation, but Persian. He contended that if Iran is pulling Hezbollah strings like most believe and if the ramifications of the reaction begin to threaten Arab states more, that Arab nations might be a bit more likely to forsake Hezbollah's position because Arabs do not have a tight allegiance with Iran. One more layer to the onion I guess.

Livinginthe past
07-27-2006, 08:28 PM
I heard an interesting point made by someone regarding Iran and the Arab nations. The expert was reminding his audience that Iran is not an Arab nation, but Persian. He contended that if Iran is pulling Hezbollah strings like most believe and if the ramifications of the reaction begin to threaten Arab states more, that Arab nations might be a bit more likely to forsake Hezbollah's position because Arabs do not have a tight allegiance with Iran. One more layer to the onion I guess.

I was under the impression that Persia was just the old name for Iran.

Are there any other countries that fall under the flag of Persia?

NM

Hawk Believer
07-27-2006, 09:04 PM
I was under the impression that Persia was just the old name for Iran.

Are there any other countries that fall under the flag of Persia?

NM
I imagine Iranians would probably claim parts of Iraq as Persia. I don't fully understand the culture nuances this speaker talking about, but from what I could gather he seemed to think that Arabs had a cultural bond on some level that was not extended to the culture of Persia traditionally (even though Arab groups seem to have some pretty serious brotherly violence towards eachother from time to time). I think he was suggesting that there is some long standing animosity from old Persia VS Arabia conflicts. Whats hard for me (and proabably most other Westerners) is what allegiances trump others. Nation, religion, religious sect, family, city, neighborhood, Hezzbollah, Hamas, region, and possibly soccer team affilitation would all come into play I imagine. I think its easy, as a casual observer, to try to lump Islamic nations all together but in doing so we might miss some key information that could have dramatic impact on our strategic relationships.

MasterOfPuppets
07-27-2006, 09:37 PM
looks as though al qaida may get involved...here's a few quotes...this just proves there is no way to deal with these people except too kill them all.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14054482/

CAIRO, Egypt - Al-Qaida's No. 2 leader issued a worldwide call Thursday for Muslims to rise up in a holy war against Israel and join the fighting in Lebanon and Gaza until Islam reigns from "Spain to Iraq."


"The war with Israel does not depend on cease-fires ... . It is a Jihad for the sake of God and will last until (our) religion prevails ... from Spain to Iraq," al-Zawahri said. "We will attack everywhere." Spain was controlled by Arab Muslims until they were driven from the country at the turn of the 16th century.
"My fellow Muslims, it is obvious that Arab and Islamic governments are not only impotent but also complicit...and you are alone on the battlefield. Rely on God and fight your enemies...make yourselves martyrs."

"The shells and rockets ripping apart Muslim bodies in Gaza and Lebanon are not only Israeli (weapons), but are supplied by all the countries of the crusader coalition. Therefore, every participant in the crime will pay the price," al-Zawahri said.


Al-Zawahri said Muslims everywhere must rise up to attack "crusaders and Zionists... and support jihad (holy war) everywhere...until American troops are chased from Afghanistan and Iraq, paralyzed and impotent...having paid the price for aggression against Muslims and support for Israel."


well litp...doesn't really sound as though giving palestinians free reign of israel will be sufficient.sounds like they want the spanish out also.

MattsMe
07-27-2006, 10:05 PM
2. As great as it is that Israel have been around so long - this type of one-upmanship is not going to help us get anywhere fast.

Smooth, real smooth. :rolleyes:

Hawk Believer
07-27-2006, 11:54 PM
Sounds like Al Quaeda is feeling neglected by all the attention Hezbollah is getting. Wouldn't it be great if we could figure out a way to get them fighting each other?

Regarding the Spain quote, I was a bit surprised by the geographic limitations they put on their goals. I had understood that it was the supposed goal of extremist Islam to force their religion upon every corner of the world. The statment seemed to be remarkable in its lack of ambition to expand beyond its old frontiers.

Hammer67
07-28-2006, 07:28 AM
I was under the impression that Persia was just the old name for Iran.

Are there any other countries that fall under the flag of Persia?

NM

Babylon, the capital of Persia was supposedly on the site of present day baghdad.

But, while reading throuhg these responses, it seems as though your views are slanted towards the motives of the terrorist groups in the region or are, at least, anti-Israel.

Some of the logic and reasoning you are applying to Hezbollah, Hamas, etc. could also be used to look at Israel. It depends on whose side you are looking from.

The large part of this problem and the reason why negotiating will do no good is the Muslim viewpoint of owning an area once it is settled. It dosn't matter if the Jews populated the entire area two thousand years ago...the day after the Muslims arrive, they feel they have right to an area forever. This holds true in areas like Spain, as well.

Although this may not be mentioned much, the terrorist groups will never be satisfyed until Israel is destroyed.

Livinginthe past
07-28-2006, 07:40 AM
I imagine Iranians would probably claim parts of Iraq as Persia. I don't fully understand the culture nuances this speaker talking about, but from what I could gather he seemed to think that Arabs had a cultural bond on some level that was not extended to the culture of Persia traditionally (even though Arab groups seem to have some pretty serious brotherly violence towards eachother from time to time). I think he was suggesting that there is some long standing animosity from old Persia VS Arabia conflicts. Whats hard for me (and proabably most other Westerners) is what allegiances trump others. Nation, religion, religious sect, family, city, neighborhood, Hezzbollah, Hamas, region, and possibly soccer team affilitation would all come into play I imagine. I think its easy, as a casual observer, to try to lump Islamic nations all together but in doing so we might miss some key information that could have dramatic impact on our strategic relationships.

Thanks HB,

Its a very good point you make - about allegiances that we take for granted that may be built on rocky foundations after all.

NM

Livinginthe past
07-28-2006, 07:47 AM
looks as though al qaida may get involved...here's a few quotes...this just proves there is no way to deal with these people except too kill them all.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14054482/

CAIRO, Egypt - Al-Qaida's No. 2 leader issued a worldwide call Thursday for Muslims to rise up in a holy war against Israel and join the fighting in Lebanon and Gaza until Islam reigns from "Spain to Iraq."


"The war with Israel does not depend on cease-fires ... . It is a Jihad for the sake of God and will last until (our) religion prevails ... from Spain to Iraq," al-Zawahri said. "We will attack everywhere." Spain was controlled by Arab Muslims until they were driven from the country at the turn of the 16th century.
"My fellow Muslims, it is obvious that Arab and Islamic governments are not only impotent but also complicit...and you are alone on the battlefield. Rely on God and fight your enemies...make yourselves martyrs."

"The shells and rockets ripping apart Muslim bodies in Gaza and Lebanon are not only Israeli (weapons), but are supplied by all the countries of the crusader coalition. Therefore, every participant in the crime will pay the price," al-Zawahri said.


Al-Zawahri said Muslims everywhere must rise up to attack "crusaders and Zionists... and support jihad (holy war) everywhere...until American troops are chased from Afghanistan and Iraq, paralyzed and impotent...having paid the price for aggression against Muslims and support for Israel."


well litp...doesn't really sound as though giving palestinians free reign of israel will be sufficient.sounds like they want the spanish out also.

Thanks for that.

I haven't seen a crazed rant by a 'mad mullah' for at least...ummm....24 hours now.

While there is political gain to be made with extereme minorities by attacking Israel in this way there will always be one of these charcters to come out of the woodwork.

There is a platform for this type of crap to be voiced because of the situation between Palestinians and Israeli's - and its a two way street.

If you remove at least some of the source of animosity then you take away the public support for this type of meaningless rhetoric.

If you consider how many times the US and UK have been attacked since a 'Jihad' was declared against us it would seem that most of these speeches are basically empty threats.

Will every Muslim 'rise up and attack all participant countries'?

The answer is no.

As I say, its empty posturing.

NM

Livinginthe past
07-28-2006, 07:55 AM
Babylon, the capital of Persia was supposedly on the site of present day baghdad.

But, while reading throuhg these responses, it seems as though your views are slanted towards the motives of the terrorist groups in the region or are, at least, anti-Israel.

Some of the logic and reasoning you are applying to Hezbollah, Hamas, etc. could also be used to look at Israel. It depends on whose side you are looking from.

The large part of this problem and the reason why negotiating will do no good is the Muslim viewpoint of owning an area once it is settled. It dosn't matter if the Jews populated the entire area two thousand years ago...the day after the Muslims arrive, they feel they have right to an area forever. This holds true in areas like Spain, as well.

Although this may not be mentioned much, the terrorist groups will never be satisfyed until Israel is destroyed.

Welcome back,

How did it work out for you on those 'more interesting' threads?

I am not anti-Israel - but I am not in favour of their current tactics.

I am also not anti-USA although I strongly disagree with the stances they take on certain issues - the environment and Iraq would be two.

Why dont you go ahead and use some of the logic I have applied to Hamas and the Hezbollah and make it relevant to Israel and its past - because thats exactly what I have been trying to do.

The situation the Palestinians are in now is a very similar one to the one that the Jews in that area found themselves in before the creation of Israel - give or take theological discussions about historical rights to being on that land.

If I found myself back in the time when Israel was fighting for its existence then I would be 100% behind their efforts.

Whether you believe that or not is up to you.

NM

Hammer67
07-28-2006, 08:57 AM
Welcome back,

How did it work out for you on those 'more interesting' threads?

I am not anti-Israel - but I am not in favour of their current tactics.

I am also not anti-USA although I strongly disagree with the stances they take on certain issues - the environment and Iraq would be two.

Why dont you go ahead and use some of the logic I have applied to Hamas and the Hezbollah and make it relevant to Israel and its past - because thats exactly what I have been trying to do.

The situation the Palestinians are in now is a very similar one to the one that the Jews in that area found themselves in before the creation of Israel - give or take theological discussions about historical rights to being on that land.

If I found myself back in the time when Israel was fighting for its existence then I would be 100% behind their efforts.

Whether you believe that or not is up to you.

NM

They were, well, more interesting.

Well, you are also making assumptions which I don't really hold onto as fact until proven. What we know is Israel has denounced splinter terrorist groups over 50 years ago. What is relevent is right now. Lebanon and the rest of the Arab nations need to do the same. Muslm controlled states need to curtail suicide bombings and actions by militant groups before any negotiations will mean anything. Otherwise, war will forever continue between these people.

I don't necessarily agree with your comparison with Jewish militant groups in the early 1900's and Hezbollah of today...they had different motives. The Jews never wanted the complete destruction of the Arabs...they wanted to co-exist and live in an area that had been theirs for thousands of years. But to play devil's advocate, two wrongs do not make a right. Just because (so you say) Israel had militant groups in the past, doesn't mean it was right and it shouldn't justify the acts of Hezbollah and other fundamentalist muslims in the region.

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-28-2006, 09:47 AM
I have provided your statements in bold and answered them immediataly afterwords:

Irgun was the terrorist organisation that was responsible for the formation of Israel as we know it - why should I be seperating them?
You should seperate them because you INSIST on seperating Arab from terrorist..being consistant would help your arguement greatly...you also fail to mention the fact that Israel and Irgun had armed conflicts against each other during Israels first several years of existence and Irgun fell out of favor with the Jewish people quickly.

As great as it is that Israel have been around so long - this type of one-upmanship is not going to help us get anywhere fast.
You are minimalizing the answer to one of your mistatements...and now are trying to say that it unimportant as to who has the right to the land..it is relevant because ownership seperates attacker from defender.

The real reason Israel fought on the side of the British was self presrevation, simple as that.
they knew which side would be more sympathetic to their cause should they be victorious.
Really?...the fact that the "opposite side" was killing Jews to the tune of almost 6 million men, women and children, wasnt motivation enough?... the "now" didnt matter as much as the future?

I am going to have to ask for evidence of Arabs being the ones to almost always being the first ones to break these treaties.
I will give you the most pertinant example to this conversation..but can provide 4 other treaty violations by Syria, Egypt, and Jordan in regards to either a) outright aggression b) providing arms in violation of treaty c) providing and allowing terrorists camps in their countries or safe areas for terrorists to attack from.
Draft Agreement between Israel and Lebanon
May 17, 1983
During Operation Peace for Galilee (the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon) Israeli and Lebanese negotiators negotiated a peace treaty between the two countries The Lebanese were represented by Antoine Fattal, the Israelis by David Kimche. The document was signed on May 17, 1983 with US mediation. The main features of the agreement include ending the the state of war between Israel and Lebanon, end the use of Lebanon as a springboard for terrorist attacks, provide a mechanism for treaty supervision, provisions for Israeli withdrawal and security coordination, and the establishment of an Israeli mission in Beirut. The agreement was conditional on Syrian withdrawal from Lebanon, and provided for non-belligerency rather than peace.

I also find people who can only see one prespective to be oversimplifying a complicated situation.

Arabs = bad guy treaty breaking terrorists

Israeli - freedom fighting good guys.[/B]

I enjoy these discussions with you...but do you truly believe that you are seeing this conflict from both sides?

Hammer67
07-28-2006, 01:01 PM
I have provided your statements in bold and answered them immediataly afterwords:

Irgun was the terrorist organisation that was responsible for the formation of Israel as we know it - why should I be seperating them?
You should seperate them because you INSIST on seperating Arab from terrorist..being consistant would help your arguement greatly...you also fail to mention the fact that Israel and Irgun had armed conflicts against each other during Israels first several years of existence and Irgun fell out of favor with the Jewish people quickly.

I enjoy these discussions with you...but do you truly believe that you are seeing this conflict from both sides?


I tried to point this out but he was denying it or avoiding it. Follow through our initial discussion. Kind of a shame, really, that people do tend to look at it form one side or the other. I try to take it at face value. You are right, though. Good post.

MasterOfPuppets
07-28-2006, 06:54 PM
anyone watch the o'rielly factor the other night when he grilled the UN spokesman? the UN guy said the their purpose was to only monitor what goes on in Lebanon,such as with terrorist activities . o'rielly ask him how he missed hezbollah moving 13,000 rockets around the country...the UN guy looked like a deer caught in the headlights.

Hammer67
07-28-2006, 11:10 PM
anyone watch the o'rielly factor the other night when he grilled the UN spokesman? the UN guy said the their purpose was to only monitor what goes on in Lebanon,such as with terrorist activities . o'rielly ask him how he missed hezbollah moving 13,000 rockets around the country...the UN guy looked like a deer caught in the headlights.

Right...which is why the UN sucks. Terrorist apologists can't answer questions like that.

lamberts-lost-tooth
07-29-2006, 11:52 AM
I was under the impression that Persia was just the old name for Iran.

Are there any other countries that fall under the flag of Persia?

NM

Present day Turkey,Egypt,Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Afganistan, India and Israel (they were taken over..captured..enslaved..released..and given back their land).......technically the Persian empire reached from India to Greece, and from the Caspian Sea to the Red Sea and the Arabian Sea.

In case this is an attempt to state that this gives the Arab people a claim to the land, please see the note above...you may also want to note the unfoutunate fact that the Persians (like the present day Iranians) were not Arab.. they were Aryans

Livinginthe past
07-30-2006, 08:38 PM
Irgun was the terrorist organisation that was responsible for the formation of Israel as we know it - why should I be seperating them?
You should seperate them because you INSIST on seperating Arab from terrorist..being consistant would help your arguement greatly...you also fail to mention the fact that Israel and Irgun had armed conflicts against each other during Israels first several years of existence and Irgun fell out of favor with the Jewish people quickly.

What I am trying to do is show similarities between the situations.

Sure Irgun came in for critcism from some of the Jewish community, just the same as Hezbollah have from some of the Arab community.

I can find nothing relating to Irgun having an internal conflict with Israel - just as a matter of interest (and not debate point scoring) i'd appreciate a link.

Even if this proved to be the case, im sure you can see that its all very convenient for Israel to wash its hands of Irgun once all the dirty work is done.

How can you explain that alot of high ranking members of the Israel government have strong family ties to Irgun - that doesnt sit right as it would mean that the members of that Government would be effective disowning their own family members would it not?

As great as it is that Israel have been around so long - this type of one-upmanship is not going to help us get anywhere fast.
You are minimalizing the answer to one of your mistatements...and now are trying to say that it unimportant as to who has the right to the land..it is relevant because ownership seperates attacker from defender..

I do understand your viewpoint on this, factually you are correct, I wont dispute that.

What I am trying to say is that if we are looking towards a solution to this growing problem then there needs to be more concessions on the part of Israel - even if you think this may be 'unfair' its the only way I can see out of this situation.

The real reason Israel fought on the side of the British was self presrevation, simple as that.
they knew which side would be more sympathetic to their cause should they be victorious.
Really?...the fact that the "opposite side" was killing Jews to the tune of almost 6 million men, women and children, wasnt motivation enough?... the "now" didnt matter as much as the future?.

I would have thought that I wouldnt have to spell out Germanys attempt at exterminating the Jewish people being a major minus point for fighting on that side.



I am going to have to ask for evidence of Arabs being the ones to almost always being the first ones to break these treaties.
I will give you the most pertinant example to this conversation..but can provide 4 other treaty violations by Syria, Egypt, and Jordan in regards to either a) outright aggression b) providing arms in violation of treaty c) providing and allowing terrorists camps in their countries or safe areas for terrorists to attack from.
Draft Agreement between Israel and Lebanon
May 17, 1983
During Operation Peace for Galilee (the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon) Israeli and Lebanese negotiators negotiated a peace treaty between the two countries The Lebanese were represented by Antoine Fattal, the Israelis by David Kimche. The document was signed on May 17, 1983 with US mediation. The main features of the agreement include ending the the state of war between Israel and Lebanon, end the use of Lebanon as a springboard for terrorist attacks, provide a mechanism for treaty supervision, provisions for Israeli withdrawal and security coordination, and the establishment of an Israeli mission in Beirut. The agreement was conditional on Syrian withdrawal from Lebanon, and provided for non-belligerency rather than peace. .

Israel is direct contravention of the Hague regulations (1907) regarding property requisition and also the Fourth Geneva Convention through the continued colonisation and usurpation of Palestinian land, water and property.

Quite simply, Israel ignores the rules it doesnt find convenient at the time.

I also find people who can only see one prespective to be oversimplifying a complicated situation.

Arabs = bad guy treaty breaking terrorists

Israeli - freedom fighting good guys.[/B]

I enjoy these discussions with you...but do you truly believe that you are seeing this conflict from both sides?

I really am trying.

I am certainly not anti-Jewish in any sense, my cousins have a Jewish father and I hold no animosity towards the civilian Israeli.

My problem is with the actions of the Israeli government - actions that continue towards atrocity and war crime by the day - another 50 people killed yesterday- mostly children I might add.

I have a natural bias in a given situation , just like anyone, but I try to stay relatively open minded.

NM

tony hipchest
07-30-2006, 09:46 PM
I have a natural bias in a given situation , just like anyone, but I try to stay relatively open minded.

NM

i have a natural bias against radical muslims, neo-nazis, the kkk, satan worshipers etc.

theres just some i cannot remain open minded about.

Livinginthe past
07-30-2006, 10:05 PM
i have a natural bias against radical muslims, neo-nazis, the kkk, satan worshipers etc.

theres just some i cannot remain open minded about.

Well thats fine Tony.

The problem being that stalemates always arise when neither side is willing to compromise.

I can't say I have alot of time for any of the people you have listed above either.

NM

tony hipchest
07-30-2006, 10:20 PM
Well thats fine Tony.

The problem being that stalemates always arise when neither side is willing to compromise.

I can't say I have alot of time for any of the people you have listed above either.

NM perhaps we can agree on this. while i agree on giving someones sexual orientation their just due (concerning homosexuals) i have to draw the line somewhere, when someones orientation is digging up the dead an plugging them up the butt (concerning necropheiliacs)

i gotta draw the line somewhere.

i feel the same about religious and political preferences as i do sexual orientation. there is a line that just shouldnt b e crossed. hezbolla has crossed that line.

Livinginthe past
07-30-2006, 10:29 PM
perhaps we can agree on this. while i agree on giving someones sexual orientation their just due (concerning homosexuals) i have to draw the line somewhere, when someones orientation is digging up the dead an plugging them up the butt (concerning necropheiliacs)

i gotta draw the line somewhere.

i feel the same about religious and political preferences as i do sexual orientation. there is a line that just shouldnt b e crossed. hezbolla has crossed that line.

Well it depends what the fall out of you drawing a line will be.

Obviously neither of us is going to play a major part in resolving the situation in Palestine/Israel.

If you were in a position to affect the outcome, then you can't really afford to dish out too many ultimatums - all that does it box you into a corner - especially if the 'other side' is just as determined as you are.

That was a lovely picture you painted regarding necrophiliacs - I dont think I know any, and if I did I would suggest immediate psycho-evaluation and some type of mental health treatment.

I agree that everyone has their limits but it doesnt pay to be too rigid all the time.

NM

tony hipchest
07-30-2006, 10:56 PM
Well it depends what the fall out of you drawing a line will be.

Obviously neither of us is going to play a major part in resolving the situation in Palestine/Israel.

If you were in a position to affect the outcome, then you can't really afford to dish out too many ultimatums - all that does it box you into a corner - especially if the 'other side' is just as determined as you are.

That was a lovely picture you painted regarding necrophiliacs - I dont think I know any, and if I did I would suggest immediate psycho-evaluation and some type of mental health treatment.

I agree that everyone has their limits but it doesnt pay to be too rigid all the time.

NMif you didnt see me playing the devils advocate, let me explain. we (as americans in this pc world we live in) can no longer critisize a mans urge to plug another man up the butt, cause that may be the way they were born and the sexual orientation they feel.

but what if the same man were born with the same urge to plug an animal or a human corpse up the butt? where do we draw the line? im all for religious (or sexual) tolerance but these radical muslims dont deserve any in my mind.

i have to side with israel on this latest conflict because my heart tells me it is the right side to align with.

MasterOfPuppets
08-04-2006, 01:43 AM
hmmmm....the leader of hezbollah said they would stop firing rockets into israel if israel stops the assult on lebanon. could it be that their being defeated?? all a cease fire will accomplish is allowing hezbollah to regroup and re-arm for a later assult. israel should not get complacent and finish the task. if they agree to a cease fire then all this has been for nothing.

Livinginthe past
08-04-2006, 01:06 PM
Finish the task?

Dont make me laugh.

Every time that Israel 'accidentally' kills a bunch of civilians sympathy grows for Hezbollah and its despicable terrorist actions.

Everytime they bomb a convoy that was obeying their orders to leave their village another Hezbollah freedom fighter is born.

The utter futility of Israels actions are becoming more and more obvious as each day passes.

Israel now wants a UN 'peacekeeping force' to act as a human buffer between them and Hezbollah - while they have no immediate intention of declaring a ceasefire.

It really doesnt matter which side you are on - Israel has achieved very little here other killing innocent people in an eye for eye war waged on the civilian population of Lebanon.

I guarantee you that Israel will never wipe out the Hezbollah - every time you cut off a head it grows a new one.

And now we have talk of Al Qaeda joining forces with Hezbollah - Sunni's and Shia who previously hated each other with a passion are now going to unite to fight Israel/USA.

If the US wants a war with Iran and Syria it should keep on backing Israel actions unilaterally - because thats is where this conflict is headed.

NM

augustashark
08-04-2006, 01:39 PM
Everytime they bomb a convoy that was obeying their orders to leave their village another Hezbollah freedom fighter is born.

NM

FREEDOM FIGHTER! Litp your views are so slanted that you can not even look at something objectively!

Are you trying to tell us that they are FREEDOM FIGHTERS?

What the hell are you talking about. These people want to wipe out an entire race of people! I know you can't understand that logic, because if you go back through this thread you have been told this time and time again. Debating you on these topics get me and others here no where!

Calling them FREEDOM FIGHTERS is the most absurd thing you have ever said!

lamberts-lost-tooth
08-04-2006, 02:00 PM
Finish the task?

Dont make me laugh.

Every time that Israel 'accidentally' kills a bunch of civilians sympathy grows for Hezbollah and its despicable terrorist actions.

Everytime they bomb a convoy that was obeying their orders to leave their village another Hezbollah freedom fighter is born.

The utter futility of Israels actions are becoming more and more obvious as each day passes.

Israel now wants a UN 'peacekeeping force' to act as a human buffer between them and Hezbollah - while they have no immediate intention of declaring a ceasefire.

It really doesnt matter which side you are on - Israel has achieved very little here other killing innocent people in an eye for eye war waged on the civilian population of Lebanon.

I guarantee you that Israel will never wipe out the Hezbollah - every time you cut off a head it grows a new one.

And now we have talk of Al Qaeda joining forces with Hezbollah - Sunni's and Shia who previously hated each other with a passion are now going to unite to fight Israel/USA.

If the US wants a war with Iran and Syria it should keep on backing Israel actions unilaterally - because thats is where this conflict is headed.

NM


You used to be at least open to looking at both sides..your latest posts have been a lesson in slanted left-wing liberalism ...NOONE in their right mind could call Hezbollah "freedom fighters"....and Israels war on them as a "war waged on the civillian population".....Extreme fantatisism I see thee and thy name is LITP.
I just got a call from Michael Moore & Barbara Boxer and they want to disassociate themselves from you.

Livinginthe past
08-04-2006, 02:54 PM
You used to be at least open to looking at both sides..your latest posts have been a lesson in slanted left-wing liberalism ...NOONE in their right mind could call Hezbollah "freedom fighters"....and Israels war on them as a "war waged on the civillian population".....Extreme fantatisism I see thee and thy name is LITP.
I just got a call from Michael Moore & Barbara Boxer and they want to disassociate themselves from you.

Actually what I have done is show both sides perceptions.

In the previous paragraph I labelled the Hezbollah's actions as those of a despicable terrorist .

In the following paragraph I use the term 'freedom fighter'.

What some of you people refuse to do, absolutely, is try and understand the other sides perspective - which absolutely imperative should you wish to conquer them or form a relationship with them.

You say that "nobody in their right mind would label them freedom fighters" - that is a facetious, simple mided comment - quite honestly if you think that everyone who take the side of Hezbollah is insane then you are probably the one who needs psychiatric help.

They fight for a side that is abhorrent to you, I understand this, but writing them off as lunatics is utterly naive.

I have stated numerous times that I do not agree with the tactics that the Hezbollah have utilised - the suicide bombings and the killing of innocent Israeli citizens.

But burying your head in the sand and shouting 'la la la la' is not going to help resolve this matter.

So you are on the side of the good guys - whoop de doo - im sure that makes you feel just great.

Keep waving the Star Of David whilst innocent Israeli's and Muslims are made victims of this aimless conflict.

Im trying to offer an honest commentary on what I see happening - you respond with immature comments about 'extremism and Michael Moore'.

The comments about my extremism also fly in the face of your previous assertion that I have no conviction in my beliefs.

NM

augustashark
08-04-2006, 03:19 PM
You say that "nobody in their right mind would label them freedom fighters" - that is a facetious, simple mided comment - quite honestly if you think that everyone who take the side of Hezbollah is insane then you are probably the one who needs psychiatric help.


The comments about my extremism also fly in the face of your previous assertion that I have no conviction in my beliefs.

NM


Tell me who takes the side of Hezbollah and is not INSANE!!!!!!!!!!! They are a terroist organization!!!!! What part of this do you not understand......For the love of god!!

Fly in the face????? WTF!

MasterOfPuppets
08-04-2006, 05:22 PM
B]It really doesnt matter which side you are on - Israel has achieved very little here other killing innocent people in an eye for eye war waged on the civilian population of Lebanon.[/B]

and what do you think hezbollah has achieved other than kill innocent israelis and bring death to the lebanese? you and i would probably say absolutely nothing
but i'd bet they feel they've achieved their goal, which is kill a few israelis and turn more muslims into anti israeli and anti western world. how is that not insane???

If the US wants a war with Iran and Syria it should keep on backing Israel actions unilaterally - because thats is where this conflict is headed.

incase you haven't noticed, a war with iran seems to be inevitable. they have no intentions of giving up their nuclear program, and no way is the u.s. or israel gonna let them aquire a nuclear weapon.

But burying your head in the sand and shouting 'la la la la' is not going to help resolve this matter.

yet this seems to be what you expect israel and the u.s. to do. if you think there is a peaceful solution in dealing with muslim extremist then your naive.

Livinginthe past
08-04-2006, 06:08 PM
B]It really doesnt matter which side you are on - Israel has achieved very little here other killing innocent people in an eye for eye war waged on the civilian population of Lebanon.[/B]

and what do you think hezbollah has achieved other than kill innocent israelis and bring death to the lebanese? you and i would probably say absolutely nothing
but i'd bet they feel they've achieved their goal, which is kill a few israelis and turn more muslims into anti israeli and anti western world. how is that not insane???.

If Hezbollahs only aim is to convert as many people as possible to an anti-semetic viewpoint then Israel is playing right into their hands.

Maybe its unfair, but I expect a properly formed government to behave a little better than an organisation such as Hezbollah.

When the IRA launched a bombing campaign against the mainland UK you didnt see the UK government react by bombing Dublin did you?

There was not much doubt that this was an IRA stronghold - and this is where the bombs were being manufactured.

[If the US wants a war with Iran and Syria it should keep on backing Israel actions unilaterally - because thats is where this conflict is headed.

incase you haven't noticed, a war with iran seems to be inevitable. they have no intentions of giving up their nuclear program, and no way is the u.s. or israel gonna let them aquire a nuclear weapon..

A war 'seems inevitable' does it?

Why should we expect Iran to give up its nuclear program when the US and UK have their own?

Seriously, what is the rationale?

That we can tell them that they are bad people and can't be trusted with nuclear weapons but as we are the good guys we can?

That isn't going to work is it.

[But burying your head in the sand and shouting 'la la la la' is not going to help resolve this matter.

yet this seems to be what you expect israel and the u.s. to do. if you think there is a peaceful solution in dealing with muslim extremist then your naive.

Killing a mixture of Muslim extremists and innocent civilians isnt going to work.

As I have explained numerous times - Israel cannot defeat Hezbollah in this fashion - unless they are planning a full blown ground assault and a long period of occupation.

Iraq shows even this doesnt work.

Its all very well saying that Israel is in the right - but what is the point if what they are doing is counter productive to what they are trying to achieve?

NM

MasterOfPuppets
08-04-2006, 06:42 PM
If Hezbollahs only aim is to convert as many people as possible to an anti-semetic viewpoint then Israel is playing right into their hands.

thats not their only aim. they are trying too rally support to help them bring about the destruction of israel. they are at least smart enough to realize they can't do it alone.

Maybe its unfair, but I expect a properly formed government to behave a little better than an organisation such as Hezbollah.

do you mean like iran or sierra's properly formed governments??? or lebanons properly formed government???....oh wait...lebanons government is hezbollah...

When the IRA launched a bombing campaign against the mainland UK you didnt see the UK government react by bombing Dublin did you?

There was not much doubt that this was an IRA stronghold - and this is where the bombs were being manufactured.



A war 'seems inevitable' does it?

Why should we expect Iran to give up its nuclear program when the US and UK have their own?


Seriously, what is the rationale?

That we can tell them that they are bad people and can't be trusted with nuclear weapons but as we are the good guys we can?

thats exactly right. you know as well as i do if one of these extremist muslim nations had a nuclear weapon they would have already used it and we wouldn't be here debating it now.

That isn't going to work is it.



Killing a mixture of Muslim extremists and innocent civilians isnt going to work.

As I have explained numerous times - Israel cannot defeat Hezbollah in this fashion - unless they are planning a full blown ground assault and a long period of occupation.

Iraq shows even this doesnt work.
your right...one only has to look at their own country to see it, by that i meen the police force...police is everywhere but does it stop crime??? should we just do away with police or bobby's all together??? i meen there will always be criminals...

Its all very well saying that Israel is in the right - but what is the point if what they are doing is counter productive to what they are trying to achieve?

NM
...

Hawk Believer
08-04-2006, 08:29 PM
do you mean like iran or sierra's properly formed governments??? or lebanons properly formed government???....oh wait...lebanons government is hezbollah...

This was brought up much earlier in the thread, but I think its important that note the Hezbollah and the Lebanese government are not the same thing. Or at least they weren't. Who knows whats going to happen now.

Lebanese politics had been heavily influenced and at times controlled through Hezbollah which was strongly influenced by Syria and probably Iran. Syria's had a standing army in Lebanon. There was a prime minister named Rafik Hariri who had a stints as prime minister who was opposed to Hezbollah and the Syrian/Iranian influence on Lebabnon. His power was tenuous though and he only had a razor edge majority coalition that enabled him to be PM for a year or so. Then more Syrian/Hezbollah types forced him out in 2004.

Syria had a habit of assisinating leader in Lebanon who opposed them. In a gross political miscalculation, Syria had Harirr murdered by car bomb in ealry 2005. A significant (probably a majority) of Lebanese citizens took to the street in protest of the current government and Syria's presence in response to Hariri's death. The head of the government had to resign and Syria was forced to withdraw from the country. Hariri's political party, the Future Movement party, regained control of the government and install Sinioria as the new PM.

The rise of the Future Movement goverment and Syria's withdrawl was cited repeatedly by president Bush as a triumph of his foriegn policy in the Middle East and we were told in his State of the Union address that it was a harbinger for terrorists that democracy was on the march in the Middle East.

So to state that the Lebabnese government is Hezbollah is to disagree with President Bush.

Hezbollah does have a few seats in parliment and obviously have a strong influence over many Lebanese. Because of this and the nature of parlimentary politics, Hezbollah does have a couple cabinet positions.

The Future Movement's power has been tenuous since regaining control. Lebanon is a diverse cultural and religous landscape (I think they acutally have laws that say the 3 top positions in goverement have to be held by a Christian, Shiite, and Sunni)and it is hard to maintain coalitions.

As I stated before, I wish Israel could have done more to have worked with, or at least appeared to have worked with the Lebabnese government before or during the invasion. I believe that Syria/Iran/Hezbollah wll now dominate Lebanese politics again. Siniora has been forced to side against Isreal because his country is being invaded and his people seem to be opposed to this.

I know critics would say that he should have doen more to quell Hezbollah. But I don't think his party had gianed the poitical power yet to do that. You could criticize the new government in Iraq as well, sayign they should be stopping the insurgents. But it is obvious that they need nurturing to be at a point where they can be powerful enough to defeat the terrorists. I think the Lebanese government's situation was similar. But alas, that opportunity is gone IMHO.

MasterOfPuppets
08-05-2006, 01:55 AM
This was brought up much earlier in the thread, but I think its important that note the Hezbollah and the Lebanese government are not the same thing. Or at least they weren't. Who knows whats going to happen now.

Lebanese politics had been heavily influenced and at times controlled through Hezbollah which was strongly influenced by Syria and probably Iran. Syria's had a standing army in Lebanon. There was a prime minister named Rafik Hariri who had a stints as prime minister who was opposed to Hezbollah and the Syrian/Iranian influence on Lebabnon. His power was tenuous though and he only had a razor edge majority coalition that enabled him to be PM for a year or so. Then more Syrian/Hezbollah types forced him out in 2004.

Syria had a habit of assisinating leader in Lebanon who opposed them. In a gross political miscalculation, Syria had Harirr murdered by car bomb in ealry 2005. A significant (probably a majority) of Lebanese citizens took to the street in protest of the current government and Syria's presence in response to Hariri's death. The head of the government had to resign and Syria was forced to withdraw from the country. Hariri's political party, the Future Movement party, regained control of the government and install Sinioria as the new PM.

The rise of the Future Movement goverment and Syria's withdrawl was cited repeatedly by president Bush as a triumph of his foriegn policy in the Middle East and we were told in his State of the Union address that it was a harbinger for terrorists that democracy was on the march in the Middle East.

So to state that the Lebabnese government is Hezbollah is to disagree with President Bush.

Hezbollah does have a few seats in parliment and obviously have a strong influence over many Lebanese. Because of this and the nature of parlimentary politics, Hezbollah does have a couple cabinet positions.

The Future Movement's power has been tenuous since regaining control. Lebanon is a diverse cultural and religous landscape (I think they acutally have laws that say the 3 top positions in goverement have to be held by a Christian, Shiite, and Sunni)and it is hard to maintain coalitions.

As I stated before, I wish Israel could have done more to have worked with, or at least appeared to have worked with the Lebabnese government before or during the invasion. I believe that Syria/Iran/Hezbollah wll now dominate Lebanese politics again. Siniora has been forced to side against Isreal because his country is being invaded and his people seem to be opposed to this.

I know critics would say that he should have doen more to quell Hezbollah. But I don't think his party had gianed the poitical power yet to do that. You could criticize the new government in Iraq as well, sayign they should be stopping the insurgents. But it is obvious that they need nurturing to be at a point where they can be powerful enough to defeat the terrorists. I think the Lebanese government's situation was similar. But alas, that opportunity is gone IMHO.

well i see it as just the opposite. since israel has been threatend from lebanese soil,if the government of lebanon was oppossed to the agression of a renegade group then they should be taking the initative to work with the israelis.do you really believe the lebanese government was ingnorant to the movement of hezbollah??? someone has to see the movement of 13,000 rockets and missiles . what did the lebanese think these people intended to do with these weapons?? israel hasn't been oppossing a threat to lebanon for what ? 6 years since they withdrew from their soil? if the lebanese government were serious or concerned about ridding their country of hezbollah or had any concern about their citizens, then they should be working with israel to bring an end to it. they could be providing intelligence to israel as to the where abouts and movements of hezbollah so the israelis can better coordinate their attacks to avoid civilian casualties. the bottom line is ,if your not part of the solution ,then your part of the problem!!!

lamberts-lost-tooth
08-05-2006, 03:40 AM
As I stated before, I wish Israel could have done more to have worked with, or at least appeared to have worked with the Lebabnese government before or during the invasion. I believe that Syria/Iran/Hezbollah wll now dominate Lebanese politics again. Siniora has been forced to side against Isreal because his country is being invaded and his people seem to be opposed to this.



Maybe Lebanon can learn form history..and check with Germany and Japan as to how they handled our invading their territories & country during WWII. Damn invaders always have to mess up a good oppression.

lamberts-lost-tooth
08-05-2006, 04:18 AM
Actually what I have done is show both sides perceptions.

In the previous paragraph I labelled the Hezbollah's actions as those of a despicable terrorist .

In the following paragraph I use the term 'freedom fighter'.
What some of you people refuse to do, absolutely, is try and understand the other sides perspective - which absolutely imperative should you wish to conquer them or form a relationship with them.

You say that "nobody in their right mind would label them freedom fighters" - that is a facetious, simple mided comment - quite honestly if you think that everyone who take the side of Hezbollah is insane then you are probably the one who needs psychiatric help.

They fight for a side that is abhorrent to you, I understand this, but writing them off as lunatics is utterly naive.

I have stated numerous times that I do not agree with the tactics that the Hezbollah have utilised - the suicide bombings and the killing of innocent Israeli citizens.

But burying your head in the sand and shouting 'la la la la' is not going to help resolve this matter.

So you are on the side of the good guys - whoop de doo - im sure that makes you feel just great.

Keep waving the Star Of David whilst innocent Israeli's and Muslims are made victims of this aimless conflict.

Im trying to offer an honest commentary on what I see happening - you respond with immature comments about 'extremism and Michael Moore'.

The comments about my extremism also fly in the face of your previous assertion that I have no conviction in my beliefs.

NM

Actually calling a group "despicable terrorists" & "freedom fighters" in the same breath does not make you an enlightened intellectual who can "see both sides". It only makes you one of two things: 1) a double-minded man who waffles back and forth without being able to stand on conviction. 2) Purposefully deceptive...and trying to push a deranged view by conveniently throwing in terms that you think may show you as nuetral.
I am not sure what has happened to you in the past month but your posts have slowly gotten more and more fanatical...to the point of subtle racism in mocking the Jews and their faith by saying.. "Keep waving the Star Of David"...
...and I do appreciate the post about my being immature after you use such verbose language like "la lal la" and "whoop-de-doo"...
To answer your last statement about .."The comments about my extremism also fly in the face of your previous assertion that I have no conviction in my beliefs."....actually the psychology of the uninformed or the fanatical is the same..in that without truth one will resort to outrageous statements..
Fittingly it was the nazi Paul Joseph Goebbels, Adolf Hitler's Propaganda Minister, who said "If the lie is big enough and told often enough, it will be believed".
..and for the record..unlike some I havnt stuck my head in the sand...I have stood toe to toe with a weapon in my hand against those that I have thought to be lunatics...I have watched 12 incoming scud missles aimed at MY BROTHERS and myself , and hoped that our patriots could take them out....I have stayed with a wounded Iraqi prisoner until he took his last breath. (not because I agreed with him but because he was a human being)...I have returned from war with 5 less brothers in our battalion than we started with. I have eaten in the house of REAL freedom fighters from Kuwait. I have Muslim and Jewish friends. My convictions are not based on CNN blurps and liberal rhetoric..but on real life experience. So please save the pseudo-intellectual shallowness for those who wont scratch past the thin white wash paint that covers your argument .

stillers4me
08-05-2006, 11:32 AM
I think Isreal has been "restrained" for far too long. How long would we sit back and let a terrorist group strap bombs on women and children and blow up our citizens that were in restaurants and buses?? Not long.........no matter who was president at the time.

Livinginthe past
08-05-2006, 02:23 PM
Actually calling a group "despicable terrorists" & "freedom fighters" in the same breath does not make you an enlightened intellectual who can "see both sides". It only makes you one of two things: 1) a double-minded man who waffles back and forth without being able to stand on conviction. 2) Purposefully deceptive...and trying to push a deranged view by conveniently throwing in terms that you think may show you as nuetral.
I am not sure what has happened to you in the past month but your posts have slowly gotten more and more fanatical...to the point of subtle racism in mocking the Jews and their faith by saying.. "Keep waving the Star Of David"...
...and I do appreciate the post about my being immature after you use such verbose language like "la lal la" and "whoop-de-doo"...
To answer your last statement about .."The comments about my extremism also fly in the face of your previous assertion that I have no conviction in my beliefs."....actually the psychology of the uninformed or the fanatical is the same..in that without truth one will resort to outrageous statements..
Fittingly it was the nazi Paul Joseph Goebbels, Adolf Hitler's Propaganda Minister, who said "If the lie is big enough and told often enough, it will be believed".
..and for the record..unlike some I havnt stuck my head in the sand...I have stood toe to toe with a weapon in my hand against those that I have thought to be lunatics...I have watched 12 incoming scud missles aimed at MY BROTHERS and myself , and hoped that our patriots could take them out....I have stayed with a wounded Iraqi prisoner until he took his last breath. (not because I agreed with him but because he was a human being)...I have returned from war with 5 less brothers in our battalion than we started with. I have eaten in the house of REAL freedom fighters from Kuwait. I have Muslim and Jewish friends. My convictions are not based on CNN blurps and liberal rhetoric..but on real life experience. So please save the pseudo-intellectual shallowness for those who wont scratch past the thin white wash paint that covers your argument .

It shows how much information you have assimilated about me that you would think that CNN would be my media of choice.

You think my point of view is 'deranged' - well thats fine, im quite happy to align myself with people who think this conflict should never have taken place - and when all is said and done it will have achieved precisely nothing other than alot of premature deaths.

Again with the lack of convictions 'snipe' - why do you think we disagree so much?

Because I am so inconsistent in my views?

No - its because we consistently believe in opposite viewpoints.

All you are doing is contradicting yourself.

My point regarding 'waving the Star Of David' was regarding your rabid fascination with making sure everyone knew that you were rooting for the right team.

I use the term 'team' because your one eyed appraoch to this whole saga reeks of football homerism - too busy point scoring with the USA's allies to examine what is actually happening out there.

Maybe you can tell me what exactly has been achieved by Israels bombardment of Lebanon?

Has it deterred future attacks by Hezbollah and other such organisations?

Has it lessened public sympathy for this 'terrorist' organisation and its actions?

What will happen after the ceasefire if/when it happens?

Would it be fair to say we will be back at a similar impasse?


Despite your protestations about my arguments being covered by thin white wash paint you have failed to break any of them down with a cogent counter argument.

Seriously, where do you think this conflict is headed and will Israel be better off without it?

Try and shape your reply without pigeon-holing me with some facetious, lazy label.

For the record, I dont think of your views as 'deranged' - just terminally naive and shortsighted- you might aswell be waving pom poms screaming 'Go Israel' for all the intelligent points you have made.

If my thoughts are really that deranged then feel free not not reply to this.

NM

Hawk Believer
08-05-2006, 07:00 PM
well i see it as just the opposite. since israel has been threatend from lebanese soil,if the government of lebanon was oppossed to the agression of a renegade group then they should be taking the initative to work with the israelis.do you really believe the lebanese government was ingnorant to the movement of hezbollah??? someone has to see the movement of 13,000 rockets and missiles . what did the lebanese think these people intended to do with these weapons?? israel hasn't been oppossing a threat to lebanon for what ? 6 years since they withdrew from their soil? if the lebanese government were serious or concerned about ridding their country of hezbollah or had any concern about their citizens, then they should be working with israel to bring an end to it. they could be providing intelligence to israel as to the where abouts and movements of hezbollah so the israelis can better coordinate their attacks to avoid civilian casualties. the bottom line is ,if your not part of the solution ,then your part of the problem!!!
Alright then. I guess that means we should take out the Iraqi government that was recently elected. There is a whole bunch of terrorists in the country and its gotten worse since they have been in power. We should take them out and start overwith another government right?

Hawk Believer
08-05-2006, 07:13 PM
Maybe Lebanon can learn form history..and check with Germany and Japan as to how they handled our invading their territories & country during WWII. Damn invaders always have to mess up a good oppression.
The Future Movement government did not control the country and could not stop Hezbollah from all its operations. But they had been moving in the right direction and had emasculated Hezbollah quite a bit.

In a perfect world, they would have gotten rid of all Iranian/Syrian/Hezbollah influence in their country in the last year since they gained power. But I think its politically naive to think they could have done that.

If their country is being bombed by another country that they have no control over, do you really expect the Future Movement to support the invasion and remain politically viable?

Without assisting the politcal operatives that are closest to being on our side, I don't see any long term resolution to situations like Lebanon other than decades of occupation.

MasterOfPuppets
08-06-2006, 01:40 AM
Alright then. I guess that means we should take out the Iraqi government that was recently elected. There is a whole bunch of terrorists in the country and its gotten worse since they have been in power. We should take them out and start overwith another government right?
well the last i'd heard the new iraqi government and the iraqi military were working side by side with american troops to rid the country of the muslim extremist thats why their being targeted also ....so whats your point???

Livinginthe past
08-06-2006, 07:04 AM
well the last i'd heard the new iraqi government and the iraqi military were working side by side with american troops to rid the country of the muslim extremist thats why their being targeted also ....so whats your point???

And how is that working out MOP?

Is it true that various high ranking members of the US Army have declared that the situation will devolve in civil war and anarchy in the very near future?

Where is the progress?

Maybe you can refresh my memory and tell me about all those people who now have schools to go to and access to drinkable water.

Its all very well having these high minded theories, but they arent worth a fig if you cant implement them successfully.

NM

lamberts-lost-tooth
08-06-2006, 10:36 AM
And how is that working out MOP?

Is it true that various high ranking members of the US Army have declared that the situation will devolve in civil war and anarchy in the very near future?
Where is the progress?

Maybe you can refresh my memory and tell me about all those people who now have schools to go to and access to drinkable water.

Its all very well having these high minded theories, but they arent worth a fig if you cant implement them successfully.

NM


Well since you asked...NO.

Like most of your posts..that is a half truth...the Dems found 6 RETIRED Generals to blast foreign policy...you are obviously on the internet..check your facts.

But then that would go completely aganst the way that you argue. Why let the facts get in the way of a good debate ..right?

Livinginthe past
08-06-2006, 11:13 AM
Well since you asked...NO.

Like most of your posts..that is a half truth...the Dems found 6 RETIRED Generals to blast foreign policy...you are obviously on the internet..check your facts.

But then that would go completely aganst the way that you argue. Why let the facts get in the way of a good debate ..right?

You are becoming a little like a child having a tantrum LLT - very disappointing.

There was a reason I put a question mark at the end of the sentence - it was a question, and not a rhetorical one.

I also asked you to address plenty of other issues - which you just ignored.

I wouldnt mind the constant personal sniping if you threw some decent analysis in for good measure.

I was under the impression that the General that made those comments had only just retired - and what does that have to do with it anyway.

Im supposed to take every word you say as gospel because you have seen action, yet these guys have done far more than you over a longer period and you treat them with disdain.

Have another go at trying to address those other points, and spare me the sarcastic comments about having access to the the internet.

NM

LambertIsGod58
08-06-2006, 11:18 AM
I thought free elections would be some sort of success....

MasterOfPuppets
08-06-2006, 11:23 AM
And how is that working out MOP?

Is it true that various high ranking members of the US Army have declared that the situation will devolve in civil war and anarchy in the very near future?

Where is the progress?

Maybe you can refresh my memory and tell me about all those people who now have schools to go to and access to drinkable water.

Its all very well having these high minded theories, but they arent worth a fig if you cant implement them successfully.

NM

one minute your telling us... "And now we have talk of Al Qaeda joining forces with Hezbollah - Sunni's and Shia who previously hated each other with a passion are now going to unite to fight Israel/USA".
and now it's a civil war and they'll continue fighting each other...:rolleyes: ...which is it???

lamberts-lost-tooth
08-06-2006, 11:35 AM
You are becoming a little like a child having a tantrum LLT - very disappointing.

There was a reason I put a question mark at the end of the sentence - it was a question, and not a rhetorical one.

I also asked you to address plenty of other issues - which you just ignored.

I wouldnt mind the constant personal sniping if you threw some decent analysis in for good measure.

I was under the impression that the General that made those comments had only just retired - and what does that have to do with it anyway.

Im supposed to take every word you say as gospel because you have seen action, yet these guys have done far more than you over a longer period and you treat them with disdain.

Have another go at trying to address those other points, and spare me the sarcastic comments about having access to the the internet.

NM
What is dissapointing is that you have danced around the truth and made obvious false statements and then used a worn out tactic of jumping to another topic..asking questions instead of standing up to facts presented and questions asked..
How could I have the answers ..you wont listen to facts..ignoring what your choose and minimizing your lies...Any opinion given to you is wrote off as..how did you say it.. "a naive opinion".. I dont claim to have the answers, smarter people than me have tried for a very long time to work out the problems in the middle east. However, I do have a strong informed opinion of hte current situation. My opinion is based on living in the Middle-Eastern region for two years out of my life...Saudi Arabia, Iraq Kuwait, Bahrain, Jordan, and Israel. Its an opinion based on actual conversations with the people who live there. Conversation in the tents of the Bedouins of northern Saudi Arabia, the homes of REAL FREEDOM FIGHTERS in Kuwait, and with soldiers form Syria, Egypt and some of the countries I have already mentioned. My opinion is based on having had access to Military Intelligence while serving in the area with the 15 Military Police, 1st Cavalry Regiment and of having the privilege to sit in on meetings and present information gathered through Iraqi POW interviews. My opinion is based on relationships with Arab and Israeli friends or their mutual friends. My opinion was formed after having read the Bible, the Quran, the Torah, and having been able to discuss them with practicing Christians, Muslims, and Jews while in the region.
My opinions and convictions was formed from experience and thoughtful study....not by Television or Newspaper.
That being said...since you have asked the question..tell us what is the answer?...Please dont tell us what doesnt work ...Please enlighten us with your obvious superior qualifications to form an opinion that is not "naive".

Hawk Believer
08-06-2006, 12:03 PM
well the last i'd heard the new iraqi government and the iraqi military were working side by side with american troops to rid the country of the muslim extremist thats why their being targeted also ....so whats your point???

Well, lets examine how the new Iraq government feels about Israel's attack on Hezbollah and Lebabnon. That should give us a good indication of how Iraq does in the "you are either with us or against us" litmus test.

Here is how some lower level members of Iraq's parliment expressed themselves when chief Iraqi terrorist Al-Sadr threw a pro-Hexbollah demonstration...

At least five members of the Iraqi parliament from al-Sadr's movement attended the Baghdad [pro Hezbollah] demonstration, but the cleric himself was not there, presumably because of safety concerns.

Lets hear what the president has to say...

President Jalal Talabani, a Sunni Kurd, also addressed the gathering, expressing "sympathy and support to our brothers in Lebanon against the Israeli aggression."

Here is what the vice president had to say about Israel's pursuit of Hezbollah...

Vice President Adel Abdul-Mahdi, a Shiite, singled out Sunday's Israeli airstrike that killed at least 56 Lebanese, mostly women and children, in the village of Qana. The deadliest attack in nearly three weeks of fighting has triggered an international uproar.

"What happened in Qana is a repetition to these crimes that happened to our nation decades ago. It's time for this nation to stand up and stop this aggression and all forms of aggression that could affect any of its parts," Abdul-Mahdi said.

"These horrible massacres carried out by the Israeli aggression, incites in us the spirit of brotherhood and solidarity," he said in a speech attended by Iraq's president, the prime minister and other top government officials.


And this from the ultimate leader of Iraq's government, their prime minister.

"The Israeli attacks and airstrikes are completely destroying Lebanon's infrastructure," Mr. Maliki said at an afternoon news conference inside the fortified Green Zone, which houses the American Embassy and the seat of the Iraqi government. "I condemn these aggressions and call on the Arab League foreign ministers' meeting in Cairo to take quick action to stop these aggressions. We call on the world to take quick stands to stop the Israeli aggression."

Al-Malaki's silence when asked ot comment on Hezbollah has been deafening.

So maybe Iraq's government isn't the partner in the war on terror that we thought they were. Perhaps they are being trained and weaponized by us not for the primary purpose of fighting terrorists, but to establish a powerful army that will protect the new government in a possible civil war and enable them to engage in policies that may eventually be counter to our foreign policy and "the war on terror." We do have to consider the possibility there are members of the Iraq government that would appear to be open to us right now soley for the purpose of exploiting our generosity so we'll continue to build thier army.

So what is my point? My point is that we are not going to find any goverment in the Middle East that supports US policies 100%. Its just no black and white like that. Lebabnon's Future Movement party wasn't perfect. Neither is Iraq's. But I don't think that we should give up on each government and get rid of them. To do so would be lunacy because each government represents the best possible chance of having a stable, moderate government that will work toward rooting out terrorists. But they cannot achieve this overnight and will need more time and assistance to get to the point of riding themselves of extremists.
I think we should continue to work with Iraq's government in spite of their anti-Israel, pro-hezbollah leanings. I think we should have tried to work more with Lebabnon's government because of thier anit-Syria, anti-Hezbollah leanings. But I am afraid its too late now.

The only way I see this campaign in Lebanon ending with a reduced threat to Isreal is an occupation lasting at least decades. Do you see any other way of Israel's security being increased given the current conflict?

Livinginthe past
08-06-2006, 12:08 PM
What is dissapointing is that you have danced around the truth and made obvious false statements and then used a worn out tactic of jumping to another topic..asking questions instead of standing up to facts presented and questions asked..
How could I have the answers ..you wont listen to facts..ignoring what your choose and minimizing your lies...Any opinion given to you is wrote off as..how did you say it.. "a naive opinion".. I dont claim to have the answers, smarter people than me have tried for a very long time to work out the problems in the middle east. However, I do have a strong informed opinion of hte current situation. My opinion is based on living in the Middle-Eastern region for two years out of my life...Saudi Arabia, Iraq Kuwait, Bahrain, Jordan, and Israel. Its an opinion based on actual conversations with the people who live there. Conversation in the tents of the Bedouins of northern Saudi Arabia, the homes of REAL FREEDOM FIGHTERS in Kuwait, and with soldiers form Syria, Egypt and some of the countries I have already mentioned. My opinion is based on having had access to Military Intelligence while serving in the area with the 15 Military Police, 1st Cavalry Regiment and of having the privilege to sit in on meetings and present information gathered through Iraqi POW interviews. My opinion is based on relationships with Arab and Israeli friends or their mutual friends. My opinion was formed after having read the Bible, the Quran, the Torah, and having been able to discuss them with practicing Christians, Muslims, and Jews while in the region.
My opinions and convictions was formed from experience and thoughtful study....not by Television or Newspaper.
That being said...since you have asked the question..tell us what is the answer?...Please dont tell us what doesnt work ...Please enlighten us with your obvious superior qualifications to form an opinion that is not "naive".

So you wont even try and answer them then.

I dont have the answers you cry - yet you are able to label my opinions as extremist and convictionless by turn.

I think we are at an impasse LLT.

We'll leave it at that.

NM

Livinginthe past
08-06-2006, 12:19 PM
one minute your telling us... "And now we have talk of Al Qaeda joining forces with Hezbollah - Sunni's and Shia who previously hated each other with a passion are now going to unite to fight Israel/USA".
and now it's a civil war and they'll continue fighting each other...:rolleyes: ...which is it???

Its very possible to have both.

Should Al Qaeda wish to send forces to help Hezbollah then that would be with the expressed intention of removing the 'evil Western influence'.

Im sure you know the term - any enemy of my enemy is my friend.

However, Iraq as a country is up for grabs and the violence there wont stop until a proper structure of power is formed.

NM

lamberts-lost-tooth
08-06-2006, 01:10 PM
So you wont even try and answer them then.

I dont have the answers you cry - yet you are able to label my opinions as extremist and convictionless by turn.

I think we are at an impasse LLT.

We'll leave it at that.

NM

I dont recall "crying"..just dissapointed that you are trying to be artful in asking questions instead of backing your facts...and I have began to see that it is pointless in debating on THIS topic based on the direction you are taking. Looking back at your previous posts in reagards to the middle eastern conflict...I have had to correct you on 1) misquoting the Quran 2) misrepresenting the history of Palastine 3) incorrectly labeling terrorists as freedom fighters 4) Insuating that "those in high position of the armed forces" are bashing foreign policy ....etc
Whenever corrected you have not shown the grace to simple admit that your wrong (and therefore allowing the debate to continue in a positive direction)..but very feebly dodged blame by stating that everyone else didnt understand what you were saying...or simply ignoring the glaring errors and deflecting attention by asking questions or making statements about everyones "naivity" and "laziness".
No one cares what side you are one...everyone is entitled to an opinion...that is not what people are ragging you about...it is your failure to simply say "Oh..I was mistaken in the facts that I presented" or being able to say.."Thank you..I wasn't aware of that"..instead of stating that your mistakes are "irrelevent" or calling those who point out these mistakes as "one-eyed" and narrow-minded".
I was also drawn into this and regret that I have a weakness in dealing with people who try and use verbal gimmicks in debates. I believe that you began to feel like others were backing you into a corner and at that point your usual lucid and pointed comments began to deteriorate to something much less.
I will refrain from commenting on this thread from here on out.

Livinginthe past
08-06-2006, 01:53 PM
I dont recall "crying"..just dissapointed that you are trying to be artful in asking questions instead of backing your facts...and I have began to see that it is pointless in debating on THIS topic based on the direction you are taking. Looking back at your previous posts in reagards to the middle eastern conflict...I have had to correct you on 1) misquoting the Quran 2) misrepresenting the history of Palastine 3) incorrectly labeling terrorists as freedom fighters 4) Insuating that "those in high position of the armed forces" are bashing foreign policy ....etc
Whenever corrected you have not shown the grace to simple admit that your wrong (and therefore allowing the debate to continue in a positive direction)..but very feebly dodged blame by stating that everyone else didnt understand what you were saying...or simply ignoring the glaring errors and deflecting attention by asking questions or making statements about everyones "naivity" and "laziness".
No one cares what side you are one...everyone is entitled to an opinion...that is not what people are ragging you about...it is your failure to simply say "Oh..I was mistaken in the facts that I presented" or being able to say.."Thank you..I wasn't aware of that"..instead of stating that your mistakes are "irrelevent" or calling those who point out these mistakes as "one-eyed" and narrow-minded".
I was also drawn into this and regret that I have a weakness in dealing with people who try and use verbal gimmicks in debates. I believe that you began to feel like others were backing you into a corner and at that point your usual lucid and pointed comments began to deteriorate to something much less.
I will refrain from commenting on this thread from here on out.

Well its a shame you dont feel able to fight your corner.

I dont understand what you mean by 'backing my facts' - if I have got a factual point wrong I will hold my hand up.

I was aware that the ex-General I referred to was retired, I just dont see why that makes him any less relevant?

Seriously, why is his opinion count for nothing, just because the Democrats 'dug him up'?

I asked you specific questions on the future of Lebanon, where you could showcase all the insider information you have, but instead you choose to harp on about my previous conduct.

The offer is still there to try and give your insight into that area, I would be genuinely interested.

Maybe you can tell me what exactly has been achieved by Israels bombardment of Lebanon?

Has it deterred future attacks by Hezbollah and other such organisations?

Has it lessened public sympathy for this 'terrorist' organisation and its actions?

What will happen after the ceasefire if/when it happens?

Would it be fair to say we will be back at a similar impasse?

Can you do that?

Just answer those questions I raised?

It would be appreciated if you didnt begin the answer with 'the problem with you liberals.......'

NM

lamberts-lost-tooth
08-06-2006, 02:12 PM
Well its a shame you dont feel able to fight your corner.

I asked you specific questions on the future of Lebanon, where you could showcase all the insider information you have, but instead you choose to harp on about my previous conduct.

The offer is still there to try and give your insight into that area, I would be genuinely interested.

Can you do that?

Just answer those questions I raised?

It would be appreciated if you didnt begin the answer with 'the problem with you liberals.......'

NM
Against my better judgement....Do you really believe that I and several others havn't presented an answer due your superior intellect???!!!! You are hiding behind the very simple tactic of asking for definitive answer on an abstract problem..very lame and juvenile...You have been told over and over againt that the reason the problem in Lebanon is at an impass is twofold...1) there is a terrorist organization working out of their country with the purposed goal of eliminating Israel as a country completely !!!! 2) The current Lebanese government has turned a blind eye to their actions (letting them move approximataly 13,000 missils around in their southern area) and outright supporting them in others.
As much as it makes you feel better about yourself...You have yet to place anyone into a position "that they cannot fight in their corner". Because you have bounced around without any semblence of a rational true debate. Please look back at the posts..you have dodged Hammer..Master...Myself...and still maintain that you are making sence...SPECIFICALLY ask a question...wait for an answer and THEN ANSWER IT YOURSELF...instead of hiding behind rhetoric and red herrings.

..and in regards to your sarcastic statements about my "insider information"...I have never shoved my past down anyones throat..and have never used it as a tool for self-promotion.
I only brought it up to answer your immatture remarks about my naive opinion...but SINCE you want to be sarcastic...how about sharing with all of us YOUR credentials apart from your morning newspaper??

Livinginthe past
08-06-2006, 02:58 PM
Against my better judgement....Do you really believe that I and several others havn't presented an answer due your superior intellect???!!!! You are hiding behind the very simple tactic of asking for definitive answer on an abstract problem..very lame and juvenile...You have been told over and over againt that the reason the problem in Lebanon is at an impass is twofold...1) there is a terrorist organization working out of their country with the purposed goal of eliminating Israel as a country completely !!!! 2) The current Lebanese government has turned a blind eye to their actions (letting them move approximataly 13,000 missils around in their southern area) and outright supporting them in others.
As much as it makes you feel better about yourself...You have yet to place anyone into a position "that they cannot fight in their corner". Because you have bounced around without any semblence of a rational true debate. Please look back at the posts..you have dodged Hammer..Master...Myself...and still maintain that you are making sence...SPECIFICALLY ask a question...wait for an answer and THEN ANSWER IT YOURSELF...instead of hiding behind rhetoric and red herrings.

..and in regards to your sarcastic statements about my "insider information"...I have never shoved my past down anyones throat..and have never used it as a tool for self-promotion.
I only brought it up to answer your immatture remarks about my naive opinion...but SINCE you want to be sarcastic...how about sharing with all of us YOUR credentials apart from your morning newspaper??

Oh dear.

How can the problem be 'abstract' when it is actually happening in the real world?

I really dont think the leaders of various nations will be sitting round the table and come to the conclusion that the problem they are facing in Lebanon is too 'abstract' for a solution.

Im simply asking you what you think should be the next step and toward what goal.

Im not hiding anywhere - so far you are the one hiding behind criticsing me instead of addressing the problem in hand.

Try and forget about me for one moment and answer the questions I asked you, or give your opinion.

I have given mine.

If you feel you have already given your opinion for a solution then please humour me and repeat it.



NM

lamberts-lost-tooth
08-07-2006, 04:22 AM
Oh dear.

How can the problem be 'abstract' when it is actually happening in the real world?

I really dont think the leaders of various nations will be sitting round the table and come to the conclusion that the problem they are facing in Lebanon is too 'abstract' for a solution.

Im simply asking you what you think should be the next step and toward what goal.

Im not hiding anywhere - so far you are the one hiding behind criticsing me instead of addressing the problem in hand.

Try and forget about me for one moment and answer the questions I asked you, or give your opinion.

I have given mine.

If you feel you have already given your opinion for a solution then please humour me and repeat it.



NM


You may want to look up the definition of abstract..let me help you from the Merriam Webster dictionary...ab?stract: difficult to understand speculative..impractical ...(You know...the opposite of concrete??? ..a poem is concrete/poetry is abstract...guns and bullets are concrete/idealism and ethics are abstract) ... hmmmm sounds like something that could happen in the real world. To say that something cannot be happening if it is abstract is another attempt on your part to try and make people think you are an intellectual. The problems in Israel are NOT all concrete but are abstract since so much of what the two sides believe is based on arbitrary, abstract IDEAS..like religious idealism, cultural ethics, and racial motivation.

Your question is...and has been..."what you think should be the next step and toward what goal."

My answer is STILL: (please follow this time, you are becoming tiresome and boring)...Peace can be achieved only through negotiations to bridge the large "abstract" gaps ... and resolve all outstanding concrete issues.... For negotiations to be possible and for them to have a chance to succeed, Palestinian terrorism and incitement, supported by Arab countries, must be brought to an end....

Israel should be willing to accept some compromise. However, peacemaking requires concessions and confidence-building measures on both sides.... Just as Israel msut be willing to address the rights and interests of the Palestinians, Israel HAS rights and interests that need to be addressed. When in the past... Israel met Arab leaders, like King Hussein of Jordan and President Sadat of Egypt ....who truly sought out peace for their own people... and were willing to take concrete steps for peace, Israel reached agreements with them and peace was achieved.

Attempts by the Palestinians, Arab countries, and powerful Clerics..to force Israel to accept Palestinian demands through terrorism ,,,,,or any one-sided UN resolutions by the Arab states will not bring the parties closer to peace. UN Security Council resolutions 242 and 338..(please take the time too look these up!!!), ...which all parties in the region accepted.... provide an important outline and plan for conducting negotiations. and could provide a permanant settlement for Palestinians... Israel has also indicated (providing that certain important conditions are met) its readiness to implement the measures of the plan. But the plan will work only if the Palestinians fulfill their obligations, something they have not even begun to do, .....especially when it comes to dismantling the terrorist infrastructure and ending incitement!!!!.... as required in the first phase of the agreement.

Peacemaking requires the creation of a positive atmosphere, one that is FREE of terrorism and incitement... one that promotes efforts to achieve mutual understanding. Israel has made (regardless of what you would have us believe) and is willing to make in the future.... goodwill gestures ....as confidence-building measures such as easing restrictions by removing road barriers... lifting closures, allowing Palestinian workers into Israel, and withdrawing from Palestinian towns. Israel is ready to take these steps provided that Israeli security is not harmed and that the Palestinians do not respond with terrorism.

Finally, peace must mean the resolution of all claims and the end of the conflict...forever. Once a peace agreement is reached, the relationship between Israel and the Palestinians, as well as Israel's relationship with all its neighbors must be put on a new footing, one characterized by dialogue and cooperation, rather than by terrorism...antagonism ...and confrontation. The problem with this is that there are outside influences and Clerics form other countries that will NEVER accept less that the destruction of Israel...therefore, the Palestinians MUST be willing to disassociate themselves from these influences....

...Please keep this for reference..(I will...so as to just send it to you again when you state in a couple of months that noone has answered your question) I have said all this before and either you dont like the answer..(and will simply reply that it is naive)...or you will ignore it and move on to another red herring to show your contempt for Israel and anyone who dares think that terrorism is of and by itself the MAIN problem to overcome in the middle east

Livinginthe past
08-07-2006, 03:05 PM
You may want to look up the definition of abstract..let me help you from the Merriam Webster dictionary...ab?stract: difficult to understand speculative..impractical ...(You know...the opposite of concrete??? ..a poem is concrete/poetry is abstract...guns and bullets are concrete/idealism and ethics are abstract) ... hmmmm sounds like something that could happen in the real world. To say that something cannot be happening if it is abstract is another attempt on your part to try and make people think you are an intellectual. The problems in Israel are NOT all concrete but are abstract since so much of what the two sides believe is based on arbitrary, abstract IDEAS..like religious idealism, cultural ethics, and racial motivation.

Your question is...and has been..."what you think should be the next step and toward what goal."

My answer is STILL: (please follow this time, you are becoming tiresome and boring)...Peace can be achieved only through negotiations to bridge the large "abstract" gaps ... and resolve all outstanding concrete issues.... For negotiations to be possible and for them to have a chance to succeed, Palestinian terrorism and incitement, supported by Arab countries, must be brought to an end....

Israel should be willing to accept some compromise. However, peacemaking requires concessions and confidence-building measures on both sides.... Just as Israel msut be willing to address the rights and interests of the Palestinians, Israel HAS rights and interests that need to be addressed. When in the past... Israel met Arab leaders, like King Hussein of Jordan and President Sadat of Egypt ....who truly sought out peace for their own people... and were willing to take concrete steps for peace, Israel reached agreements with them and peace was achieved.

Attempts by the Palestinians, Arab countries, and powerful Clerics..to force Israel to accept Palestinian demands through terrorism ,,,,,or any one-sided UN resolutions by the Arab states will not bring the parties closer to peace. UN Security Council resolutions 242 and 338..(please take the time too look these up!!!), ...which all parties in the region accepted.... provide an important outline and plan for conducting negotiations. and could provide a permanant settlement for Palestinians... Israel has also indicated (providing that certain important conditions are met) its readiness to implement the measures of the plan. But the plan will work only if the Palestinians fulfill their obligations, something they have not even begun to do, .....especially when it comes to dismantling the terrorist infrastructure and ending incitement!!!!.... as required in the first phase of the agreement.

Peacemaking requires the creation of a positive atmosphere, one that is FREE of terrorism and incitement... one that promotes efforts to achieve mutual understanding. Israel has made (regardless of what you would have us believe) and is willing to make in the future.... goodwill gestures ....as confidence-building measures such as easing restrictions by removing road barriers... lifting closures, allowing Palestinian workers into Israel, and withdrawing from Palestinian towns. Israel is ready to take these steps provided that Israeli security is not harmed and that the Palestinians do not respond with terrorism.

Finally, peace must mean the resolution of all claims and the end of the conflict...forever. Once a peace agreement is reached, the relationship between Israel and the Palestinians, as well as Israel's relationship with all its neighbors must be put on a new footing, one characterized by dialogue and cooperation, rather than by terrorism...antagonism ...and confrontation. The problem with this is that there are outside influences and Clerics form other countries that will NEVER accept less that the destruction of Israel...therefore, the Palestinians MUST be willing to disassociate themselves from these influences....

...Please keep this for reference..(I will...so as to just send it to you again when you state in a couple of months that noone has answered your question) I have said all this before and either you dont like the answer..(and will simply reply that it is naive)...or you will ignore it and move on to another red herring to show your contempt for Israel and anyone who dares think that terrorism is of and by itself the MAIN problem to overcome in the middle east

Ok, thanks for that answer - I genuinely appreciate the time you took to do so.

What sort of compromise do you think Israel should be willing to make?

The way I see it, its a kind of chicken and egg scenario - one side has to make the first move in order that a workable solution can be implemented.

I honestly don't think that Hezbollah will disband in any sense until Israel gives some concrete guarantees regarding the Gaza strip and other contested areas.

Do you think that one of the more friendly pro-Israel Arab nations would allow their leader to become a mediator in future discussions?

I took a look at those UNSC resolutions you noted - seems to me that alot of the problems are resulting for a difference in interpretation in what the resolution actually means - I hope that any further resolutions will have far more specific language.

I notice further examples of the chicken and egg scenario when I read about the previous attempt at implemeting 242 - namely that Israel insists that the other Arab parties call for the 'termination of all states of belligerancy' -whilst these Arab states refuse, due to the fact that Israel wont refrain from breaking other elements of 242.

I hope that whatever intermediaries that are brought in, from France or the US or wherever, take the time to ensure that they have a more 'water-tight' contract between the two parties - instead of passing these resolutions and patting themselves on the back for a job well done.

As I say, I would still be interested in your take on the current military offensive by Israel.

What objective do you think they set out with?

Do you think they achieved it?

NM

ARKIESTEEL
08-07-2006, 03:38 PM
Let the fat man wade in here and set you all straight. First off them folks over there dont like us they never will no mater what we do they hate each and ever one of you, they dont want our help and whoever gets put into office over there will be the same as all the other little hitler wannabes around the middle east. Now here is where things went wrong in 56 or 57 when Egypt started messing with france and england over that canel over there and the USA steped in and told them to play nice France and England turned over the job of watch dog to uncle sam. When we cut out a place for the Jews over there they started hateing us all over again since all the way back to the crusades them folks hated us in one way or the other

Hawk Believer
08-07-2006, 03:41 PM
I fall into the camp that believes that Hezbollah really doesn't have the Palestinians' best interest in mind and all they ultimately want is to destroy Israel. But I don't know if Israel can really get rid of Hezbollah. Sure, they can kill the current leadership and fighters. But others will likely replace them. I think the only way to get rid of Hezbollah and their likes is to have Muslim governments and people get rid of them by withdrawing their support.

So how do we get that to happen? Thats why I have been perseverating on supporting the Lebanese government so much. They seemed to have presented one of the better opportunities for nurturing an anit-terrorism government in the Middle East. But that chance is over as far as I can tell. And I am pretty short on answers as to how we can get the Islamic world to rid itself of extremist influence given the current state of affairs.

MasterOfPuppets
08-07-2006, 03:46 PM
Ok, thanks for that answer - I genuinely appreciate the time you took to do so.

What sort of compromise do you think Israel should be willing to make?

The way I see it, its a kind of chicken and egg scenario - one side has to make the first move in order that a workable solution can be implemented.

I honestly don't think that Hezbollah will disband in any sense until Israel gives some concrete guarantees regarding the Gaza strip and other contested areas.

Do you think that one of the more friendly pro-Israel Arab nations would allow their leader to become a mediator in future discussions?

I took a look at those UNSC resolutions you noted - seems to me that alot of the problems are resulting for a difference in interpretation in what the resolution actually means - I hope that any further resolutions will have far more specific language.

I notice further examples of the chicken and egg scenario when I read about the previous attempt at implemeting 242 - namely that Israel insists that the other Arab parties call for the 'termination of all states of belligerancy' -whilst these Arab states refuse, due to the fact that Israel wont refrain from breaking other elements of 242.

I hope that whatever intermediaries that are brought in, from France or the US or wherever, take the time to ensure that they have a more 'water-tight' contract between the two parties - instead of passing these resolutions and patting themselves on the back for a job well done.

As I say, I would still be interested in your take on the current military offensive by Israel.

What objective do you think they set out with?

Do you think they achieved it?

NM
well I don't know what their objective is as of now,beside degrade hezbollahs weapons and fighters, but as of a few weeks ago when they first invaded Lebanon, according to fox news reporters,their goal was to clear at least a 12 mile buffer zone (the range of the katusha rockets) and lobby for U.N. peace keepers to occupy the buffer zone. but according to today's news ,Lebanon is sending 1500 troops to the southern boarder.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14224221/

MasterOfPuppets
08-07-2006, 03:55 PM
I fall into the camp that believes that Hezbollah really doesn't have the Palestinians' best interest in mind and all they ultimately want is to destroy Israel. But I don't know if Israel can really get rid of Hezbollah. Sure, they can kill the current leadership and fighters. But others will likely replace them. I think the only way to get rid of Hezbollah and their likes is to have Muslim governments and people get rid of them by withdrawing their support.
So how do we get that to happen? Thats why I have been perseverating on supporting the Lebanese government so much. They seemed to have presented one of the better opportunities for nurturing an anit-terrorism government in the Middle East. But that chance is over as far as I can tell. And I am pretty short on answers as to how we can get the Islamic world to rid itself of extremist influence given the current state of affairs.
hawk do you remember posting this?

Hezbollah: Violence mixed with social mission

(CNN) -- The group called Hezbollah is on the U.S. State Department's list of terrorist organizations, but also participates in the Lebanese government. A few facts on the organization:


Hezbollah is a Shiite militant group in Lebanon, regarded by the U.S. and Israel as a terrorist organization.


It opposes Israel and the West, and supports a fundamentalist Muslim government.


It is dedicated to eliminating Israel and has formally advocated ultimate establishment of Islamic rule in Lebanon, according to the U.S. State Department.


It garners popular support among Lebanese by setting up schools, hospitals and other social services.


It has become a social/political movement, holding 14 seats in the 128-member Lebanese parliament, according to the parliament's Web site.


The word "hezbollah" means "party of God" in Arabic.


Sheik Hassan Nasrallah is the head of Hezbollah.


Hezbollah fighters operate with almost total autonomy in southern Lebanon, and the government has no control over their actions, according to The Associated Press. But Lebanon has long resisted international pressure to disarm the group.

it kinda contradicts some of your post. how can they have known terrorist holding office yet be nuturing an anti terrorist government?

augustashark
08-07-2006, 07:38 PM
Try and forget about me for one moment and answer the questions I asked you, or give your opinion.

I have given mine.



NM


AND YOU'RE WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!

83-Steelers-43
08-07-2006, 07:41 PM
I've noticed something during this whole situation:

When the Israeli's drop a bomb and accidentally kill civilians we see riots and protests all over the globe (by civilians and goverments).

When a proven terrorist group kills a bunch of Israeli's (on purpose and counting children) you don't see or hear a damn thing. It's reported on the news as if they are reporting the stock numbers for the day and then all is quiet. No protests.

Little odd.

Hawk Believer
08-07-2006, 07:56 PM
Thats a very valid question and here is my armchair opinion. The Future Movement government's power is very limited. It was shocking that they were even able to eject Syria from Lebanon. But I think that provides evidence that they were headed in the right direction philosophically. Hezbollah holds just a few seats in the Parliment. They are a very distinctive political group from Future Movement. But they were elected democratically by districts within Lebanon.

This gets back to the old PR debate. When we think of Hezbollah, the first thing we as westerners think of are a group of terrorists who have ruthlessly killed hundred of our servicemen and have no qualms using innocent civilians as shields. But from what I understand, some Palestinians or Lebanese, when they consider Hezbollah, would first think of them as a sort of Islamic United Way. As offensive and crazy as it sounds to us, some view the "military" wing as a small part of what Hezbollah does and they probably believe their terrorist operations are defensive in nature.

So Lebanon has elements that are pro-Syria/Hezollah. Ans it has elements that aren't. The Future Movement coalition seemed to have more of those who were against the Syrian terrorist influence. But they did not have the power to rid the country of these groups themselves and probably could not have survived politically if they had allowed the US or Israel to operate within their borders with impunity to attack Hezbollah.

They weren't perfect, but they had the most potential out of all the political parties that I am aware of in Lebanon (which is admitedly a small list). I am curious to hear if anyone knows of a political group there that shows more potential for working against Hezbollah.
The other question I would pose goes back to Iraq. Since there individuals that are pro Al Sadr/Hezbollah/Al Quaeda (plus some Kurds who support vicisious Kurdish separatist terrorists in Turkey) in the Iraq parlimentary government, does that mean we shouldn't work with the government?

Its an interesting point to ponder. What if a Middle East country (besides Israel) becomes a true functioning democracy and they choose to become state sponsors of terror or install Sharia law? God forbid that ever happens.

Hawk Believer
08-07-2006, 08:06 PM
I've noticed something during this whole situation:

When the Israeli's drop a bomb and accidentally kill civilians we see riots and protests all over the globe (by civilians and goverments).

When a proven terrorist group kills a bunch of Israeli's (on purpose and counting children) you don't see or hear a damn thing. It's reported on the news as if they are reporting the stock numbers for the day and then all is quiet. No protests.

Little odd.

I think part of it is that Israel is (here's some Biblical irony)viewed as the Goliath to the Lebanese/Palestinian David. People will tend to view losses of the side that appears to be more powerful with less sympathy.



I heard one talking head on a news program make another point: Israel could not care less about how they are percieved by the rest of the world. He argued that they could do a lot more to present their side more sympathetically. But I don't think the Israelis feel a need to be loved by any one else. I think you could make strong arguments that their security could be improved if they did exert a propaganda effort equal to that of their enemies.

83-Steelers-43
08-07-2006, 08:24 PM
I think part of it is that Israel is (here's some Biblical irony)viewed as the Goliath to the Lebanese/Palestinian David. People will tend to view losses of the side that appears to be more powerful with less sympathy.



I heard one talking head on a news program make another point: Israel could not care less about how they are percieved by the rest of the world. He argued that they could do a lot more to present their side more sympathetically. But I don't think the Israelis feel a need to be loved by any one else. I think you could make strong arguments that their security could be improved if they did exert a propaganda effort equal to that of their enemies.

I don't blame them. They don't feel the need to get sympathy from other nations (not giving a shit basically) simply because they can easily be blown off the map by the beautifully governed and mentally stable nations surrounding them who have Hezbollah underneath their thumbs and inside their goverments. It's amazing, Hezbollah has been getting more passes in one week than Nicole Simpson in a five year span.

Personally, I wouldn't be looking for sympathy if I were Israel. I would be trying to survive after somebody took a punch at me. Basically, what they are currently doing. I can't blame a country for sticking up for themselves and attempting to defeat a bunch of animals hell bent on killing anybody and everybody (unless you agree with their messed up views). Afterall, they are not France.

Hawk Believer
08-07-2006, 08:48 PM
I don't blame them. They don't feel the need to get sympathy from other nations (not giving a shit basically) simply because they can easily be blown off the map by the beautifully governed and mentally stable nations surrounding them who have Hezbollah underneath their thumbs and inside their goverments. It's amazing, Hezbollah has been getting more passes in one week than Nicole Simpson in a five year span.

Personally, I wouldn't be looking for sympathy if I were Israel. I would be trying to survive after somebody took a punch at me. Basically, what they are currently doing. I can't blame a country for sticking up for themselves and attempting to defeat a bunch of animals hell bent on killing anybody and everybody (unless you agree with their messed up views). Afterall, they are not France.

I too respect most people who operate by thier value system instead of other people's perceptions of them. But those who don't make an effort to plead their case suffer consequences. In this case, they probably get less media sympathy. And diplomatic support (But I don't think any amount of lobbying will ever get the UN to get behind Israel these days).

By the way, did you really mean Nicole Simpson? I am guessing you meant Jessica. Kinda funny in a dark humor way.

Livinginthe past
08-08-2006, 03:48 AM
I've noticed something during this whole situation:

When the Israeli's drop a bomb and accidentally kill civilians we see riots and protests all over the globe (by civilians and goverments).

When a proven terrorist group kills a bunch of Israeli's (on purpose and counting children) you don't see or hear a damn thing. It's reported on the news as if they are reporting the stock numbers for the day and then all is quiet. No protests.

Little odd.

If you want an honest opinion as to why that is the case then ill have an attempt.

People protest against Israel's 'accidental' killing of civilians because it is seen a state-sponsored murder.

Hezbollah, and those like them, are seen have only a single m.o. - and that is to use terror tactics (including the murder of innocent civilians) to acheive a political goal.

It would seem to be pointless to protest to Hezbollah about their actions - unfortunately what they do is what defines them.

Israel is a much more complicated, larger entity, and is supposed to mirror the standards of the common man.

I guess what im saying is that people, at least hope their protests will have some effect on Israel - because they know that protesting against Hezbollah is pointless.

NM

83-Steelers-43
08-08-2006, 06:42 AM
By the way, did you really mean Nicole Simpson? I am guessing you meant Jessica. Kinda funny in a dark humor way.

My bad...lol. Thanks for the correction. :smile:

lamberts-lost-tooth
08-09-2006, 01:08 PM
If you want an honest opinion as to why that is the case then ill have an attempt.

People protest against Israel's 'accidental' killing of civilians because it is seen a state-sponsored murder.

Hezbollah, and those like them, are seen have only a single m.o. - and that is to use terror tactics (including the murder of innocent civilians) to acheive a political goal.

It would seem to be pointless to protest to Hezbollah about their actions - unfortunately what they do is what defines them.

Israel is a much more complicated, larger entity, and is supposed to mirror the standards of the common man.

I guess what im saying is that people, at least hope their protests will have some effect on Israel - because they know that protesting against Hezbollah is pointless.

NM


Okay LITP...sit down before you read this..I agree with your statements 100%.

you also asked in a previous post about what I thought Israels next move would be...and now I seem am a little late in posting ..because in watching the news..its happening as we speak.

Israel will push deep enough to establish a buffer zone just large enough to nullify the range of Hezbollahs weaponry. At that point the bargaining power of conflict falls solidly into Israels direction. The thought is that the more Israel pushes...the less that the Lebanese Government will back the Insurgents, because with all the good that Hezbollah offers the locals...it wont equal the bad that has resulted from this war.

MasterOfPuppets
08-09-2006, 06:44 PM
israel is now saying they have killed iranian soldiers fighting along side hezbollah. it hasn't been confirmed, but is this really a surprise?

Hawk Believer
08-09-2006, 07:06 PM
Regarding the public relations discussed earlier in the thread...

Here is a link that shows how far some on the Hezbollah side are willing to go to garner media support.

Warning: Link contains graphic pictures of children killed in bombing.
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/08/qana-directors-cut.html

Though I am hesitant to take any blog as the final word on truth and the blogger in this case doesn't pretend to be unbiased, the evidence presented in the link seems to be particularly damning and gut wrenchingly disgusting.

I wonder how the Islamic world would react to these men who are doing acting takes with a dead girl if they saw the truth about how the pictures were staged.

What an awful, ironic cycle to be in: Hezbollah's biggest victories are found when innocent civilians (the people they are supposed to be defending) are killed by attacks that Israel inevitably serves up for them.

Livinginthe past
08-10-2006, 12:58 AM
Okay LITP...sit down before you read this..I agree with your statements 100%.

you also asked in a previous post about what I thought Israels next move would be...and now I seem am a little late in posting ..because in watching the news..its happening as we speak.

Israel will push deep enough to establish a buffer zone just large enough to nullify the range of Hezbollahs weaponry. At that point the bargaining power of conflict falls solidly into Israels direction. The thought is that the more Israel pushes...the less that the Lebanese Government will back the Insurgents, because with all the good that Hezbollah offers the locals...it wont equal the bad that has resulted from this war.

Hey - good job I was seated!

I understand the theory behind the tactic you mention - I do wonder about this buffer zone and how it is going to be policed in the future.

I have read from numerous sources also that various 'humanitarian corridors' that Israel promised the civilians of Lebanon have not materialised - in fact there has been a general warning that any moving vehicle will be considered a viable military target - you have to wonder how any aid or medical supplies can make it to the people that need it.

Its hard to predict how the Lebanese general population will react to the war waged upon them by Israel - perhaps they will associate collaboration with Hezbollah with great personal pain and loss - that may well be enough to make them think twice in future.

Of course, they could be so consumed by anger that they will be easy prey for the vultures of the Hezbollah recruitment policy.

Im quite surprised (pleasantly) that one of the more vocal Arab nations has not been drawn into issuing actual ultimatums toward Israel - there is still hope that, as bloody as this conflict has been, that the number of actively participating nations is kept to a minimum.

NM

Livinginthe past
08-10-2006, 01:05 AM
Regarding the public relations discussed earlier in the thread...

Here is a link that shows how far some on the Hezbollah side are willing to go to garner media support.

Warning: Link contains graphic pictures of children killed in bombing.
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/08/qana-directors-cut.html

Though I am hesitant to take any blog as the final word on truth and the blogger in this case doesn't pretend to be unbiased, the evidence presented in the link seems to be particularly damning and gut wrenchingly disgusting.

I wonder how the Islamic world would react to these men who are doing acting takes with a dead girl if they saw the truth about how the pictures were staged.

What an awful, ironic cycle to be in: Hezbollah's biggest victories are found when innocent civilians (the people they are supposed to be defending) are killed by attacks that Israel inevitably serves up for them.

Yes that appears to be the nature of the insurgent terrorist.

Their lifeblood is the perception of injustice done to them and the people who they supposedly represent.

They also rely on the David v Goliath factor to garner sympathy from potential recruits and people who may be sympathetic to their cause.

My point all along is that, although these pictures have been staged, the abundant raw materials for this type of production would have not been available had this conflict taken a different direction.

Hezbollah know that they will never win this war in terms of sheer logistics - they just have to remain unbeaten long enough, and cause enough damage to Israels reputation to try and achieve their goals through other means.

NM

lamberts-lost-tooth
08-10-2006, 08:06 AM
Hey - good job I was seated!

I understand the theory behind the tactic you mention - I do wonder about this buffer zone and how it is going to be policed in the future.

I have read from numerous sources also that various 'humanitarian corridors' that Israel promised the civilians of Lebanon have not materialised - in fact there has been a general warning that any moving vehicle will be considered a viable military target - you have to wonder how any aid or medical supplies can make it to the people that need it.
Its hard to predict how the Lebanese general population will react to the war waged upon them by Israel - perhaps they will associate collaboration with Hezbollah with great personal pain and loss - that may well be enough to make them think twice in future.

Of course, they could be so consumed by anger that they will be easy prey for the vultures of the Hezbollah recruitment policy.

Im quite surprised (pleasantly) that one of the more vocal Arab nations has not been drawn into issuing actual ultimatums toward Israel - there is still hope that, as bloody as this conflict has been, that the number of actively participating nations is kept to a minimum.

NM

I am not surprised that these corridors have not materialized yet....With the Israeli army on the move ..it is next to imposible to implement the safeguards needed to ensure troop safety. As the front line moves forward...they will have to set up "defiles"..roadblocks..checkstations and holding areas to facilitate the movement of civilians. This will also ensure the safety of the populace by removing insurgents...and directly labeling those in these areas as noncombatants. But all this has to be done behind and hopefully far behind any conflict.
With Hezbollahs ability to blend into the local populace..this task is going to be difficult and time consuming

Hawk Believer
08-12-2006, 02:20 PM
Well, it looks like a cease fire is close at hand. Doesn't look like it turned out to be World War III just yet (in spite of all the pundits who sure seemed to be hoping it was).

So since Israel was operating idependnently within Lebanon, I am curious to know why they chose now to wind down. Did diplomatic pressure help guide their decision (unlikely IMO.) Or do they feel that they have achieved their strategic objectives for the invasion. I am assumign they did. I would also assume the objective was to eliminate Hezbollah in the region and rid the area of offensive missles. I will be curious to see how effective this operation was at weakening Hezbollah and how well the "peacekeeping" forces will be able to prevent any terrorist vaccuum in Lebanon from being filled. Time will tell.

Hawk Believer
08-12-2006, 02:28 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WEs9kRolLkp://

Above is a hilarious link where The Colbert Report nails the media frenzy regarding hopes that this war was going to spread beyond Lebanon...

j-dawg
08-12-2006, 03:14 PM
here's some fuel for the fire in this here debate....

http://www.crooksandliars.com/posts/2006/08/10/the-daily-shows-new-correspondent/

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9071731896689197790&pr=goog-sl

Livinginthe past
08-13-2006, 01:30 AM
here's some fuel for the fire in this here debate....

http://www.crooksandliars.com/posts/2006/08/10/the-daily-shows-new-correspondent/

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9071731896689197790&pr=goog-sl

That comedy sketch was certainly edgy stuff, if you can keep an open mind then the message is clear.

Patronising spin about 'exciting new opportunities' is an affront to innocent civilians who are having their homes blown up around them.

Thanks for posting these J-dawg - keep em coming.

NM