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View Full Version : Timmons a Bust? Your thoughts?


Steelers5895
04-03-2012, 07:23 PM
The more I think aboiut it the more dissapointing Timmons has become. As a first round pick he didnt immediately crack the starting line up and other than 2010 hasnt made any impact, game changing plays our ILB should make.

Last year he had an opportunity to be a game changer and dissappeared. As an OLB he did nothing and when back inside seemed to be a step behind RBs and TEs in coverage.

The excuse he had to be moved around a lot last year is exactly that, an excuse. I remember another #94 (Chad Brown) who was moved outside when Greg Lloyd went down in 1996 and made the pro bowl Thats what I expect from a first round pick.

What are your thoughts?

zcoop
04-03-2012, 07:39 PM
The more I think aboiut it the more dissapointing Timmons has become. As a first round pick he didnt immediately crack the starting line up and other than 2010 hasnt made any impact, game changing plays our ILB should make.

Last year he had an opportunity to be a game changer and dissappeared. As an OLB he did nothing and when back inside seemed to be a step behind RBs and TEs in coverage.

The excuse he had to be moved around a lot last year is exactly that, an excuse. I remember another #94 (Chad Brown) who was moved outside when Greg Lloyd went down in 1996 and made the pro bowl Thats what I expect from a first round pick.

What are your thoughts?

You've got wayyyyyyyyy too much time on your hands. C'Mon Man! Timmons is legit.

MACH1
04-03-2012, 07:42 PM
http://www.alwin-bathware.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/flush.jpg

QCbeauBlak
04-03-2012, 07:50 PM
Man ask yourself this...

5 years ago, how closely was I following NFL players?

If you are like me then you will say pretty close but also realize that the coverage guys get now is unreal. Sure, some guys are instant game changers but most develop over time. Timmons is developing just fine. Woodley gets more shine because he came in at the same time and has recorded a bunch of sacks.. It may seem as though Woodley is miles ahead of Timmons. I beg to differ. They play different positions and soon, if not already, Timmons will be quarterbacking the defense. His numbers will be overshadowed but as a player, I think he is really solid. FAR FAR FAR FAR far from a bust. What round was he even drafted in?

Not every player will be a star but instead, exactly what the team needs. True it may seem like Timmons regressed last season, but then again, Didn't the whole front 7 underachieve this year according to our "expectations"? When Casey Hampton is getting blown 5 yards into the second level, what effect does it have on both MLBers?

pete74
04-03-2012, 07:57 PM
he definatly isnt what we expected when we drafted him. he is really good but will never be great. he definatly has the talent but i dont see him being a pro bowler like a ray lewis. of course most will defend him because he is a steeler but i would say our 2nd round pick that year far outplayed our 1st rounder

tony hipchest
04-03-2012, 07:58 PM
#1 defense in total yards, passing, and scoring.

lebeau said timmons had a great years, especially considering he had to play 3 of the 4 linebacker positions.

i'll take lebeaus word for it.

Steelers5895
04-03-2012, 08:06 PM
What has he done? Timmons as a first round player in the system now for 6 years with his physical ability should have made at least a pro bowl or been a top 10 at his position at least in the AFC. He has not met expectations at all. The thing with Steelers fans when it comes to defensive players is we get blinded by love and they can do no wrong. Timmons was NOT worth the extension he got and we are still waiting for the breakthrough series of games.

Not sure if you guys watch the games.

Steelers5895
04-03-2012, 08:07 PM
You've got wayyyyyyyyy too much time on your hands. C'Mon Man! Timmons is legit.

Care to back up your statement? any chance of a legit response?

tony hipchest
04-03-2012, 08:17 PM
What has he done? Timmons as a first round player in the system now for 6 years with his physical ability should have made at least a pro bowl or been a top 10 at his position at least in the AFC. He has not met expectations at all. The thing with Steelers fans when it comes to defensive players is we get blinded by love and they can do no wrong. Timmons was NOT worth the extension he got and we are still waiting for the breakthrough series of games.

Not sure if you guys watch the games.did you watch 2 years ago when he led ALL ilb's in sacks?

:tap:

Fire Arians
04-03-2012, 08:24 PM
long answer: no

MACH1
04-03-2012, 08:37 PM
I wasn't aware that making the popularity contest known as the pro bowl was a prerequisite for being considered as successful. :hunch:

tony hipchest
04-03-2012, 08:50 PM
people get irate when everybody disagrees with them and their posts.

Steelers5895
04-03-2012, 09:16 PM
Not irate, just not hearing anything that is making me feel differently. pro bowls arent the measuring stick but impact plays are. Harrison, Woodley, Troy, Clark make impact plays, usually one or more a game. How many does Timmons make. Again, if he was a 3rd rounder I would say ok, he is producing as he should. But as a 1st rounder going into year 6, havent seen what we were told he can do.

he isnt versitle, he does not pick it up when others are out of the game, cant stay on fleet rbs or TE's, doesnt get interceptions, other than 2009 he doesnt harrass the qb, very rarely causes fumbles or recovers them. What are you guys seeing that I am not?

StainlessStill
04-03-2012, 09:27 PM
#1 defense in total yards, passing, and scoring.

lebeau said timmons had a great years, especially considering he had to play 3 of the 4 linebacker positions.

i'll take lebeaus word for it.

Took the words right out of my mouth and I was going to post something very similiar. Even though I love Timmons and feel he could be an absolute FREAK OF NATURE, he's dissapointed in his overall production when it comes to numbers and he does indeed need to work on how to control his body tempo that match's his feet since he's such a freak athlete, he's certainly no bust.

That said, this Pittsburgh Steelers defense is one of the most complex defense in the entire NFL. Timmons was asked all last season to move out to a position where he isn't comfortable and held down the fort for All Pro players such as James Harrison and LaMarr Woodley. He was most forced to accustom his game to not only be a rush outside linebacker, but valuable in his coverage skills as well.

As Tony up from me said, I'll take Dick LeBeau's word for it, who consistently, week after week, all season, praised Lawrence Timmons and how much value he means to the football team considering what he was asked to do.

Lawrence Timmons WILL have a breakout year in 2012. Mark my words.

Sean95m
04-03-2012, 09:27 PM
The op obviously didn't watch the games last year and not to mention Timmons played almost half the season out of position at outside linebacker due to injuries and a suspension. And he held the fort down!

StainlessStill
04-03-2012, 09:34 PM
he isnt versitle, he does not pick it up when others are out of the game, cant stay on fleet rbs or TE's, doesnt get interceptions, other than 2009 he doesnt harrass the qb, very rarely causes fumbles or recovers them. What are you guys seeing that I am not?

What are we seeing that you're not? First off, check yourself into your nearest eye doctor and A.) invest into some bifocals B.) invest into contacts or C.) invest into laser eye surgery.

To call Lawrence Timmons non-versatile is an absolute hoot. This guy plays the weakside linebacking duty in our system and is asked to virtually cover one section of the field in his pass-covering capabilities, which (how ironic) is where he makes most of his game.

Not only that, but he played both outside linebacking positions this season (along his will-linebacking spot in our 3-4) and even though he wasn't barreling around the edge like James Harrison and causing fumble after fumble, he rotated all these positions all year and gave us a sense of reliability and efficiantly, something 1st round draft picks are asked and expected to do.

I understand the whole "numbers & stats game" but to call Timmons non-versatile is an down right travesty.

Steelers5895
04-03-2012, 09:39 PM
The op obviously didn't watch the games last year and not to mention Timmons played almost half the season out of position at outside linebacker due to injuries and a suspension. And he held the fort down!

Chad Brown made the pro bowl in his 3rd season playing out of position filling in for Greg Lloyd as a 3rd round pick. Timmons was non-existant filling in for Woodley and Harrison in year 5 of his career as a 1st round pick. It was to the point they just put in Chris Carter and suffered with no pass rush to put Timmons back to his position.

Larry Foote was more of a ball hawk and made more big plays in the same position then Timmons has in the pre-Timmons era.

Steelers5895
04-03-2012, 09:40 PM
What are we seeing that you're not? First off, check yourself into your nearest eye doctor and A.) invest into some bifocals B.) invest into contacts or C.) invest into laser eye surgery.

To call Lawrence Timmons non-versatile is an absolute hoot. This guy plays the weakside linebacking duty in our system and is asked to virtually cover one section of the field in his pass-covering capabilities, which (how ironic) is where he makes most of his game.

Not only that, but he played both outside linebacking positions this season (along his will-linebacking spot in our 3-4) and even though he wasn't barreling around the edge like James Harrison and causing fumble after fumble, he rotated all these positions all year and gave us a sense of reliability and efficiantly, something 1st round draft picks are asked and expected to do.

I understand the whole "numbers & stats game" but to call Timmons non-versatile is an down right travesty.

with all the action coming his way there should be more than ample opportunities to make a game changing play. he made none. Yeah he played outside linebacker in other players absense but was useless and did nothing.

StainlessStill
04-03-2012, 10:00 PM
with all the action coming his way there should be more than ample opportunities to make a game changing play. he made none. Yeah he played outside linebacker in other players absense but was useless and did nothing.

You do realize that the entire 2011 Pittsburgh Steelers defense underachieved when it came to turnovers, right? We had what? A total of 15 turnovers the ENTIRE 2011 football season and you're going to come down on a guy being asked to play 3 solid positions throughout a 16 game schedule?

To put things into perspective and if you want to compare Timmons' numbers to the other elite players on the Steelers defense that pretty much did squat in the "game changing" department:

Ryan Clark:
Tackles- 100
Sacks- 1
Interceptions- 1
Pass Defensed- 5

Lawrence Timmons:
Tackles- 93
Sacks- 2
Interceptions- 1
Pass Defensed- 5

Troy Polamalu:
Tackles- 91
Sacks- 1
Interceptions- 2
Passed Defensed- 14

James Farrior:
Tackles- 78
Sacks- 2
Interceptions- 0
Pass Defensed - 0

and since you compared Larry Foote....

Larry Foote:
Tackles: 47
Sacks: 1.5
Interceptions: 0
Pass Defensed: 1

As you can see, Timmons' overall numbers pretty much match the production of our other elite's playing alongside him on our defense (who had the luxery of playing their respected, natural position all season.)


For the record, Timmons had a monstrous year in 2010, worthy of a Pro-Bowl appearance with a WHOPPING 135 tackles, 2 sacks, 1 interception & 2 forced fumbles, not to mention 9 pass's defended.

If you're more worried about judging our team by the numbers of Pro-Bowls rather than their significance to the overall unit, then you are TRULY not understand the Black & Gold philosophy. Lawrence Timmons played his ass off last year doing a helluva job at what he was asked to do, full of 10 other underachievers on defense.

Curtain_of_Steel
04-03-2012, 10:22 PM
First that POS Flacco comes out today and says he is the best QB in the NFL. Now to top it off Timmons is a bust?

There goes that Baltimore weed stash again!

Steelers5895
04-03-2012, 11:10 PM
You do realize that the entire 2011 Pittsburgh Steelers defense underachieved when it came to turnovers, right? We had what? A total of 15 turnovers the ENTIRE 2011 football season and you're going to come down on a guy being asked to play 3 solid positions throughout a 16 game schedule?

To put things into perspective and if you want to compare Timmons' numbers to the other elite players on the Steelers defense that pretty much did squat in the "game changing" department:

Ryan Clark:
Tackles- 100
Sacks- 1
Interceptions- 1
Pass Defensed- 5

Lawrence Timmons:
Tackles- 93
Sacks- 2
Interceptions- 1
Pass Defensed- 5

Troy Polamalu:
Tackles- 91
Sacks- 1
Interceptions- 2
Passed Defensed- 14

James Farrior:
Tackles- 78
Sacks- 2
Interceptions- 0
Pass Defensed - 0

and since you compared Larry Foote....

Larry Foote:
Tackles: 47
Sacks: 1.5
Interceptions: 0
Pass Defensed: 1

As you can see, Timmons' overall numbers pretty much match the production of our other elite's playing alongside him on our defense (who had the luxery of playing their respected, natural position all season.)


For the record, Timmons had a monstrous year in 2010, worthy of a Pro-Bowl appearance with a WHOPPING 135 tackles, 2 sacks, 1 interception & 2 forced fumbles, not to mention 9 pass's defended.

If you're more worried about judging our team by the numbers of Pro-Bowls rather than their significance to the overall unit, then you are TRULY not understand the Black & Gold philosophy. Lawrence Timmons played his ass off last year doing a helluva job at what he was asked to do, full of 10 other underachievers on defense.

where did I say ONLY pro bowls is how I am judging? Talk about selective reading. Thing is, all the guys you listed at one point had a top defensive year, Timmons has not. I like the ton of excuses I am reading on why you guys so badly want to view him as great.

He has average production in his 5 years. His overall body of work is below what can be expected from OUR 1st round picks.

Again, you guys love to say how he had to play in unfamiliar spots, well so did Chad Brown at a pro bowl level. Timmons failed at OLB. His production has not been what I would like to see from a first rounder with all his physical tools.

He is approaching bust status.

Steelers5895
04-03-2012, 11:11 PM
oh and again, selective reading, I wasnt comparing Timmons to Foote in 2011 but pre- Timmons. jeez

SteelersinCA
04-03-2012, 11:20 PM
What is your criteria? There is a tremendous gap between "bust" and "pro bowler." Lots of 1st round picks aren't pro bowlers but play very well.

Your original question was is he a bust and the obvious answer is no. He may not be a pro bowler but you asked about him being a bust. I think that question is ridiculous. A bust is Ryan Leaf. Timmons isn't in the same galaxy, don't be stupid.

StainlessStill
04-03-2012, 11:28 PM
oh and again, selective reading, I wasnt comparing Timmons to Foote in 2011 but pre- Timmons. jeez

I'm just comparing your statements in a nut-shell because you're only coming back with trying to justify your argument from the sheer fact of comparing him to Chad Brown or any other player for that matter while you continue to tip-toe around your inane argument that Timmons hasn't had a productive season or isn't versatile. You totally failed to comprehend and completely ignore his 2010 stats OR what kind of significance he portrayed in his 2011 season by doing what he did and how he stepped into the outside linebacking role when he ultimately didn't even get the nod at that position until either Woodley or Harrison was ruled out. It doesn't get more versatile than that.

I know, I know. Just because he didn't churn in 21 sacks, 18 forced fumbles and 10 interceptions, he didn't play well at all, right? Give me a break. There's way more to a players craft than their numbers (even I was dissapointed that Timmons didn't have a breakout year yet givin' his numbers. HE WILL eventually.)

You also may want to recalculate your definition of "bust." Timmons has givin' this defense the necessity of how players are plugged into LeBeau's zone-blitz defense. He is surrounded by the elite of the league around him so it's easy to ask more from him but I assure you he doesn't perform like a "bust" player. He's anything BUT a bust.

If you truly believe that, then how do you break down and validate our leader (Dick LeBeau's) words about Lawrence Timmons being his MVP on defense all last year?

MACH1
04-03-2012, 11:31 PM
:shout: FIRE LEBEAU

Black N' Yellow
04-03-2012, 11:34 PM
where did I say ONLY pro bowls is how I am judging? Talk about selective reading. Thing is, all the guys you listed at one point had a top defensive year, Timmons has not. I like the ton of excuses I am reading on why you guys so badly want to view him as great.

He has average production in his 5 years. His overall body of work is below what can be expected from OUR 1st round picks.

Again, you guys love to say how he had to play in unfamiliar spots, well so did Chad Brown at a pro bowl level. Timmons failed at OLB. His production has not been what I would like to see from a first rounder with all his physical tools.

He is approaching bust status.

Lol..... If I recall correctly, "OUR" first round picks don't really start for the first year or so and in 2009 he had a so-so year with 78 tackles but our entire defense stunk it up that year.

In 2010 he responded with 135 tackles 93 of which were solo. And if you expect more from a first round pick.... I don't know what to say. And last year he had a pretty decent season with almost a 100 tackles. It was a pretty weird season with injuries and I think he did pretty well bumping to the outside and covering for both Woodley and Harrison.

TRH
04-03-2012, 11:40 PM
long answer: no


This.

It is a "long" answer. While he's certainly not a bust, he's certainly not one of the elite in the NFL either. I think he's close, but hasn't materialized into the gigantic superstar they thought he would be.
There's times when he goes weeks being nearly invisible and other times he shines. I think he's solid...hope we see a better year from him this year, that would be great

tony hipchest
04-04-2012, 12:01 AM
:shout: FIRE LEBEAU

:coffee: hater.

:chuckle:

the OP must not be paying attention to how rediculous his claim is, because he still refuses to acknowledge timmons excellent 2010 season or the season he led all interior linebackers in sacks with 7 (as a situational pass rusher).

according to the OP's lofty criteria and standards heath miller, ben roethlisberger, ike taylor are all "busts" and not worthy of their megamillion $$$ contracts.

:jerkit:

Millers the sh!t
04-04-2012, 12:10 AM
Timmons is a non stop beast. He's got the motor of a hamster. I don't look/compare ANY of our defensive stats in 2011 cause they played a total different defensive style last year. We went from mediocre passing and first in rush defense 2010 (record breaking rush defense) to a number one pass defense and embarrassing rush defense (to our standards) in 2011. I wouldn't be surprises if we use the 2011 defense again this year. That means less excitement, and less turnovers. Hopefully a health LB crew for 16 games will add a little spice again though.

StainlessStill
04-04-2012, 12:20 AM
This.

It is a "long" answer. While he's certainly not a bust, he's certainly not one of the elite in the NFL either. I think he's close, but hasn't materialized into the gigantic superstar they thought he would be.
There's times when he goes weeks being nearly invisible and other times he shines. I think he's solid...hope we see a better year from him this year, that would be great

^ This. I'll say it once and I'll say it again. I was dissapointed with the situations Timmons was presented with last season only because he hasn't broken out like the player I expect him to be. He has every damn inch of maximum potential to be the best in the league and he could still achieve that because he's young and just starting when it comes to production.

The OP is using the term "bust" and I really do think that's awful for not appreciating his talents and what he brings to the Steelers defense. This dude is a natural freak who could blow anything up at any time, whether it be rushing the QB, stopping the run or run step for step with the league's dangerous backs and wideouts in his pass-coverage skills.

He isn't THERE yet and he hasn't arrived to his potential but I feel the time is coming. Last year he was asked to play out of his comfort zone and for that, I appreciate what he did and backed off of that expectation until the 2012 season.

Danny136200
04-04-2012, 02:21 AM
where did I say ONLY pro bowls is how I am judging? Talk about selective reading. Thing is, all the guys you listed at one point had a top defensive year, Timmons has not. I like the ton of excuses I am reading on why you guys so badly want to view him as great.

He has average production in his 5 years. His overall body of work is below what can be expected from OUR 1st round picks.

Again, you guys love to say how he had to play in unfamiliar spots, well so did Chad Brown at a pro bowl level. Timmons failed at OLB. His production has not been what I would like to see from a first rounder with all his physical tools.

He is approaching bust status.
What I fail to understand is that you are rating him on what he did as an OLB, which is not his position. The defense as a whole had a funky year, as people in here already mentioned. And also, Timmons had, what you would call, a top defensive year in 2010. He was a very important cog in the defense and he did come up with big plays that year. Don't go jumping the gun on calling him bust, or even a near bust at that.
Timmons will be fine, he is our top INSIDE linebacker.

Danny136200
04-04-2012, 02:23 AM
I'm just comparing your statements in a nut-shell because you're only coming back with trying to justify your argument from the sheer fact of comparing him to Chad Brown or any other player for that matter while you continue to tip-toe around your inane argument that Timmons hasn't had a productive season or isn't versatile. You totally failed to comprehend and completely ignore his 2010 stats OR what kind of significance he portrayed in his 2011 season by doing what he did and how he stepped into the outside linebacking role when he ultimately didn't even get the nod at that position until either Woodley or Harrison was ruled out. It doesn't get more versatile than that.

I know, I know. Just because he didn't churn in 21 sacks, 18 forced fumbles and 10 interceptions, he didn't play well at all, right? Give me a break. There's way more to a players craft than their numbers (even I was dissapointed that Timmons didn't have a breakout year yet givin' his numbers. HE WILL eventually.)

You also may want to recalculate your definition of "bust." Timmons has givin' this defense the necessity of how players are plugged into LeBeau's zone-blitz defense. He is surrounded by the elite of the league around him so it's easy to ask more from him but I assure you he doesn't perform like a "bust" player. He's anything BUT a bust.

If you truly believe that, then how do you break down and validate our leader (Dick LeBeau's) words about Lawrence Timmons being his MVP on defense all last year?

^this

Steelersfan87
04-04-2012, 02:24 AM
Timmons was damn near the best player in the league during the first half of the 2010 season before he got dinged up. He was making big plays left and right.

Week 1: 11 tackles
Week 2: 15 tackles and a forced fumble
Week 3: 7 tackles, 1 sack, and 1 pass defensed
Week 4: 15 tackles
Week 5: 11 tackles, 2 sacks, 1 interception, 1 pass defensed
Week 6:3 tackles, 2 passes defensed
Week 7: 12 tackles
Week 8: 4 tackles, 2 passes defensed, 1 interception

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-playbook/09000d5d81d1d17f/Playbook-Steelers-defense

Start at around 2:50.

PhantomJB93
04-04-2012, 02:29 AM
Just two seasons ago (2010) Timmons elevated his game to the point where a lot of people were arguing he was our MVP for a lot of the year, until Troy had a couple spectacular plays late in the season. He had one off-year last year but honestly, I'm willing to accept that "moved around" excuse - our injuries were out of control and he DID play every LB position at some point during the season. That's an awful lot to handle on top of your normal responsibilities.

If he never had the season he had in 2010 I may write him off as a bust now, but that season has given him at least another year or two of continuous play at one position to prove himself in my book.

Bayz101
04-04-2012, 02:42 AM
Timmons dropped back into coverage throughout all of last year, and our pass-defense soared to the top of the league. He had pretty much the same turnout as in previous years, only difference is he's gathered less sacks. That's mainly due to being assigned several different linebacker spots this year, and playing coverage a majority of his playing time.

Timmons is legit, and I wouldn't even bring the pro-bowl into this discussion. That game is a joke, and the voting system is just as bad. Tebow made it.

Sixburgher
04-04-2012, 02:53 AM
Timmons is legit, and I wouldn't even bring the pro-bowl into this discussion. That game is a joke, and the voting system is just as bad. Tebow made it.

Not to mention the fact that Ray "the mouth" Lewis made it in 2010 on his name when Timmons deserved it more.

Sean95m
04-04-2012, 03:25 AM
Lloyd was lost in what the first game of the season? So Brown played a "whole" season at that position. Timmons played all 3 outside of his natural position this past season. Go back in the corner and shut it!

pete74
04-04-2012, 04:40 AM
Not to mention the fact that Ray "the mouth" Lewis made it in 2010 on his name when Timmons deserved it more.

there stats were identical that year so of course the bigger name will make it. i agree that Timmons is a very good ILB but personally i dont consider him great. 2010 was his best season and it was a great one but it was also his only season with over 100 tackles. he definatly isnt a bust and if he played every season like the 2010 season i would say he is a great player but unfortunatly it hasnt happened

Rick5895
04-04-2012, 05:34 AM
The Timmons Brown comparisons are , IMO, foolish. Brown was a natural OLB playing ILB to get on the field, when Lloyd was injured he moved seamlessly into his natural OLB position. Timmons is an ILB, his sideline to sideline speed and ability to drop into coverage makes him one of the best ILB in the league. He was asked to play 3 of the 4 LB positions last season because of injuries, and although he at times did struggle, I thought he did his job very well, in pass coverage especially.
You have made a statement and haven't really backed up your claim, yet ask for others to back up there opinions, some have done just that with some fancy stats and some (like myself) have backed up our opinions in a different manner. Everyone has an opinion, just as you have, because someones opinion differs from yours doesn't make you right and everyone else wrong.

ANDYMISIU
04-04-2012, 07:15 AM
I think Timmons has been fairly productive. He had a great year in 2010, fell off a bit in 2011. However, he is really young and people forget that. Of course, the time to learn is now. This is the year that I'm going to judge Timmons, I consider this to be his 3rd year since the injuries and position changes stunted his earlier years. I'm ready for Timmons to step into his role as a leader on this defense. I think he'll have a huge year.

steelax04
04-04-2012, 09:06 AM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_vd_zVJKziTE/TO_Ow5GbxoI/AAAAAAAAA8U/jbZ7VoM23yw/s1600/mandy%2Bp.jpg

MDSteel15
04-04-2012, 09:07 AM
I was not high on Timmons comming out but come on! See the light.... He has been the only consistant ILB the last couple of years we've had and we have the #1 defense in the NFL!

Steel Peon
04-04-2012, 10:21 AM
Timmons ain't a bust, but he ain't setting the world on fire either. He's great at stopping the run, getting into the backfield, and general tackling. However, he doesn't seem to be very good against the pass, and he was remarkably silent last year. Again, he's not a bust, and he's a great team player, but he's also not a huge factor towards winning a championship.

StainlessStill
04-04-2012, 11:55 AM
Timmons ain't a bust, but he ain't setting the world on fire either. He's great at stopping the run, getting into the backfield, and general tackling. However, he doesn't seem to be very good against the pass, and he was remarkably silent last year. Again, he's not a bust, and he's a great team player, but he's also not a huge factor towards winning a championship.

Hmm, that's funny. I see it as the complete opposite with Timmons' pro/cons. I feel he has MUCH more work to do at being a run stuffer (and a blitzer as well) because his feet simply over-run his mind and more times than not, he's taking himself out of his gaps and assignments because he's so reckless with his own agility. He needs to learn how to compose himself in his body movement and turn that speed and energy into one big ball of thunder and smoothness. I think a key part to his game is his pass-coverage skills. I think he can run with the most athletic tight-end or backs in the game (even though he got punk'd week 1 against Ray Rice, but that's as big of a mis-match as it gets.)

VaDave
04-04-2012, 01:36 PM
You may want to list Woodley's stats as well. Yeah, he does have an occasional act of brilliance, but for the most part, he does a lot of playing patty cake with tightends he should be obliterating. The point being, if one is not happy with Timmons's output, take a good like at Woodley's career numbers....


You do realize that the entire 2011 Pittsburgh Steelers defense underachieved when it came to turnovers, right? We had what? A total of 15 turnovers the ENTIRE 2011 football season and you're going to come down on a guy being asked to play 3 solid positions throughout a 16 game schedule?

To put things into perspective and if you want to compare Timmons' numbers to the other elite players on the Steelers defense that pretty much did squat in the "game changing" department:

Ryan Clark:
Tackles- 100
Sacks- 1
Interceptions- 1
Pass Defensed- 5

Lawrence Timmons:
Tackles- 93
Sacks- 2
Interceptions- 1
Pass Defensed- 5

Troy Polamalu:
Tackles- 91
Sacks- 1
Interceptions- 2
Passed Defensed- 14

James Farrior:
Tackles- 78
Sacks- 2
Interceptions- 0
Pass Defensed - 0

and since you compared Larry Foote....

Larry Foote:
Tackles: 47
Sacks: 1.5
Interceptions: 0
Pass Defensed: 1

As you can see, Timmons' overall numbers pretty much match the production of our other elite's playing alongside him on our defense (who had the luxery of playing their respected, natural position all season.)


For the record, Timmons had a monstrous year in 2010, worthy of a Pro-Bowl appearance with a WHOPPING 135 tackles, 2 sacks, 1 interception & 2 forced fumbles, not to mention 9 pass's defended.

If you're more worried about judging our team by the numbers of Pro-Bowls rather than their significance to the overall unit, then you are TRULY not understand the Black & Gold philosophy. Lawrence Timmons played his ass off last year doing a helluva job at what he was asked to do, full of 10 other underachievers on defense.

LVSteelersfan
04-04-2012, 03:15 PM
He is far from a bust. So no, I do not believe he is a bust. Blame the whole season last year on injuries and Casey Hampton not being able to play his position any more. With the middle of the defensive line not doing their job and Timmons having to cover for both Harrison and Woodley all year, I don't know what people expect. Other teams out there would kill to have a player of Timmons' skills. Pro Bowls are a joke and do not deserve to enter into any conversation.

Fire Arians
04-04-2012, 03:16 PM
unless he means a hall of fame bust, well, time will tell ;)

LVSteelersfan
04-04-2012, 03:45 PM
unless he means a hall of fame bust, well, time will tell ;)

BWAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!!!!!! Didn't think of that. I seriously doubt he will get one of those unless he picks it up a bit.

steeltheone
04-04-2012, 03:55 PM
He is far from a bust. So no, I do not believe he is a bust. Blame the whole season last year on injuries and Casey Hampton not being able to play his position any more. With the middle of the defensive line not doing their job and Timmons having to cover for both Harrison and Woodley all year, I don't know what people expect. Other teams out there would kill to have a player of Timmons' skills. Pro Bowls are a joke and do not deserve to enter into any conversation.

Pro Bowls are a joke...Even when they work in our favor!

JCPsteelers
04-04-2012, 04:50 PM
He had a bad year last year. One bad year isn't a bust.

pete74
04-04-2012, 04:57 PM
Pro Bowls are a joke...Even when they work in our favor!

You beat me to it.

Curtain_of_Steel
04-04-2012, 05:03 PM
Bad year last year?

How do you figure?

Steelers5895
04-04-2012, 06:34 PM
Bust may be a little harsh, but he is definetly a dissapointment. I keep hearing how he stepped in when there were injuries. No he didnt. he played OLB and failed miserably. He did so bad they moved him back inside and played an unknown Chris Carter. He has been average to below average in every game he has played. he has yet to in 5 years take over a game or make a game changing play.

When our defense needs a big play, Timmons is NOT someone I feel can make that play. I think OLB and Safety.

LVSteelersfan
04-04-2012, 07:36 PM
Bust may be a little harsh, but he is definetly a dissapointment. I keep hearing how he stepped in when there were injuries. No he didnt. he played OLB and failed miserably. He did so bad they moved him back inside and played an unknown Chris Carter. He has been average to below average in every game he has played. he has yet to in 5 years take over a game or make a game changing play.

When our defense needs a big play, Timmons is NOT someone I feel can make that play. I think OLB and Safety.

Obviously you totally missed the whole 2010 season. Must have been out of the country or something. He was dynamic and making tackles from one side of the field to the other. He is not all world, but he is better than average. Steeler fans are so spoiled due to the high quality LBs who have come through the system.Timmons is better than Foote any day of the week. Let's just hope that the NT position does their job in the upcoming year. That is when the ILBs get all of those tackles and are not getting blocked out of the plays. If Hampton doesn't do his job, the RBs fire through the holes so fast it is tough to catch up to them.

NSMaster56
04-04-2012, 08:35 PM
Timmons is not a bust.

Troy Edwards and Limas Sweed were busts.

Just because Timmons isn't Ray Lewis redux doesn't make him a bust.

Steelers5895
04-04-2012, 09:06 PM
The Timmons Brown comparisons are , IMO, foolish. Brown was a natural OLB playing ILB to get on the field, when Lloyd was injured he moved seamlessly into his natural OLB position. Timmons is an ILB, his sideline to sideline speed and ability to drop into coverage makes him one of the best ILB in the league. He was asked to play 3 of the 4 LB positions last season because of injuries, and although he at times did struggle, I thought he did his job very well, in pass coverage especially.
You have made a statement and haven't really backed up your claim, yet ask for others to back up there opinions, some have done just that with some fancy stats and some (like myself) have backed up our opinions in a different manner. Everyone has an opinion, just as you have, because someones opinion differs from yours doesn't make you right and everyone else wrong.

where on earth did you get Brown was an OLB? He was always an ILB and played it 3 seasons for the steelers before being shifted outside at game 1.

Steelers5895
04-04-2012, 09:09 PM
Obviously you totally missed the whole 2010 season. Must have been out of the country or something. He was dynamic and making tackles from one side of the field to the other. He is not all world, but he is better than average. Steeler fans are so spoiled due to the high quality LBs who have come through the system.Timmons is better than Foote any day of the week. Let's just hope that the NT position does their job in the upcoming year. That is when the ILBs get all of those tackles and are not getting blocked out of the plays. If Hampton doesn't do his job, the RBs fire through the holes so fast it is tough to catch up to them.

Not sure why you guys are all worked up about tackles. That is the most misleading stat for a defensive player. stats you need to look at are tackles for losses, forced fumbles, sacks, ints. you get credit for a tackle when your man beats you, you trail the play (ala farrior) and happen to bring the guy down.

thats my point, he lacks impact plays.

Riddle_Of_Steel
04-04-2012, 09:22 PM
STEELERS5895, you CANNOT analyze any player on this defense objectively and expect positive answers from fellow Steelers fans. That is not a pronouncement against our fanbase, but a simple observation.

I agree with everything you have stated thus far regarding Timmons and have felt for several yearas now that the only reason they still keep him around and try to promote him is because he was Tomlin's first love as a head coach in the NFL.

He makes lots of tackles, but that could mean he is having to tackle his guys from behind as they streak past him. Cato June led the Colts' defense by a margin in tackles the year they got rid of him-- becuase most of those tackles were on oppoosing players who already got past him.

He is weak against the run, didn't look much better than Potsie in coverage this last season, and did not help out the pass rush at all. And NO, Timmons natural position is NOT ILB-- he was an OLB that we converted. And he stunk at OLB and had to be replaced by a rookie. Maybe it is just perception, but everytime I saw him in coverage, I recall seeing TE's catching passes over the middle all season with Timmons trailing 5 yards behind.

I don't know if he is a "bust", but definitely has not shown the "freakish skills" Tomlin spoke of when he drafted him. He has not broken out, and anyone watching the games this last season got to see him get bowled over by the opposing running game plenty of times.

He may get better, but he has not shown first-round potential thus far, in my humblest of opinions.

tony hipchest
04-04-2012, 09:50 PM
he wasnt replaced by a rookie. chris carter was injured, and when he returned from injury timmons moved back to the inside which is NOW his natural position.

how soon people forget.

steelers5895, you have asked the board their thoughts, and as of yet, not a single person agrees with you, who also thinks hes a bust.

dont ask the question, if you cant handle the answer. :doh:

lipps83
04-04-2012, 11:26 PM
He has average production in his 5 years. His overall body of work is below what can be expected from OUR 1st round picks.

I discovered where your disappointment lies.

He didn't meet YOUR expectations. That is not HIS problem.

The problem might be YOUR expectations.

I think he plays fine. The Steelers obviously do as well being that they extended him.

When Timmons was drafted, Timmons did not say "Steelers5895, I promise that I am going to be the baddest muther f***ing linebacker you have ever seen". Had he said that to you, than yeah, that would be his fault.

Stop holding other people accountable for YOUR expectations.

Bayz101
04-04-2012, 11:57 PM
Although I do not agree with the suggestion made that Timmons is a "Bust", I don't want to see this turn into a pissing match. I happen to believe Timmons has been a vital part of our annual #1 defense since draft day. Let's keep this discussion civil, and take to mind that not everyone HAS to agree with you, nor will they if their opinion differs. Don't take offense to this, just agree to disagree. Carry on.

lloydwoodson
04-05-2012, 01:31 AM
No he is not a bust. He is an awesome ILB. One of the best coverage linebackers and has been solid vs run. I think he looks better all the time. The guy covers a lot of ground. He was great vs the Broncos in the playoffs but got no credit.

Steelersfan87
04-05-2012, 02:19 AM
Bust may be a little harsh, but he is definetly a dissapointment. I keep hearing how he stepped in when there were injuries. No he didnt. he played OLB and failed miserably. He did so bad they moved him back inside and played an unknown Chris Carter. He has been average to below average in every game he has played. he has yet to in 5 years take over a game or make a game changing play.

When our defense needs a big play, Timmons is NOT someone I feel can make that play. I think OLB and Safety.

First of all, you suck at facts. The game that Chris Carter played in, James Harrison was still out, as was Jason Worilds, and then LaMarr Woodley got injured. This was the New England game. Look it up. Timmons was playing in Harrison's spot and Carter was playing in Woodley's.

Secondly, your claim that he "failed miserably" at OLB is clearly based entirely on his lack of sack production. In that respect, yes, he did fail, and in fact his sack ability is probably the weakest part of his game over the last season and a half. He did, however, get numerous pressures and set the edge well in the run game.

Your hilariously idiotic claim that he has been "average to below average" IN EVERY GAME HE HAS PLAYED and has yet to "take over a game" (like his 15 tackle game in week 2 of 2010 when he shadowed Chris Johnson all game, where he rushed for 34 yards on 16 carries for a 2.1 YPC or the game against the Browns for which he was named the defensive player of the week) that I'm going to give you a chance to just take it back, because if you don't, you just a delusional ****tard. Multiple (http://www.advancednflstats.com/2010/12/2010-all-wpa-teams-defense.html) websites (http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/01/fantasy-2011-idp-dynasty-rankings/) listed Timmons as the best linebacker in the entire league in 2010. According to Steelers Lounge (http://www.steelerslounge.com/2011/03/steelers-defense-making-splash-plays/), only Harrison had more 'splash plays' in 2010. Obviously you either don't watch many games or just suck at watching them. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Here's PFF listing him as the 20th best player in the entire league in 2010 as the top ILB:

20. Lawrence Timmons, ILB, Pittsburgh Steelers
What got him the nod over Willis was his better all around play. So while he didn’t have the impact in blitzing that Willis did, he made more plays in coverage and was a little bit more consistent in run defense (his playoff performances didn’t hurt either.) Really built on his strong 2009 campaign to effectively show us all that he’s the heir apparent to James Farrior, and a guy the Steelers can rely on for years to come. How do they keep producing these linebackers?
Best Performance: Week 2 at Tennessee (+5.2)
Key Stat: Didn’t give up a single touchdown, while breaking up six passes (including two interceptions).

Hell, here they are interviewing him: http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/07/13/interview-with-lawrence-timmons-lb-pittsburgh-steelers/

pete74
04-05-2012, 04:59 AM
First of all, you suck at facts. The game that Chris Carter played in, James Harrison was still out, as was Jason Worilds, and then LaMarr Woodley got injured. This was the New England game. Look it up. Timmons was playing in Harrison's spot and Carter was playing in Woodley's.

Secondly, your claim that he "failed miserably" at OLB is clearly based entirely on his lack of sack production. In that respect, yes, he did fail, and in fact his sack ability is probably the weakest part of his game over the last season and a half. He did, however, get numerous pressures and set the edge well in the run game.

Your hilariously idiotic claim that he has been "average to below average" IN EVERY GAME HE HAS PLAYED and has yet to "take over a game" (like his 15 tackle game in week 2 of 2010 when he shadowed Chris Johnson all game, where he rushed for 34 yards on 16 carries for a 2.1 YPC or the game against the Browns for which he was named the defensive player of the week) that I'm going to give you a chance to just take it back, because if you don't, you just a delusional ****tard. Multiple (http://www.advancednflstats.com/2010/12/2010-all-wpa-teams-defense.html) websites (http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/01/fantasy-2011-idp-dynasty-rankings/) listed Timmons as the best linebacker in the entire league in 2010. According to Steelers Lounge (http://www.steelerslounge.com/2011/03/steelers-defense-making-splash-plays/), only Harrison had more 'splash plays' in 2010. Obviously you either don't watch many games or just suck at watching them. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Here's PFF listing him as the 20th best player in the entire league in 2010 as the top ILB:



Hell, here they are interviewing him: http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/07/13/interview-with-lawrence-timmons-lb-pittsburgh-steelers/

next time you speak to another member like this you will be banned from this board. regardless of his opinion you dont come here and insult our members. everyone has an opinion and you need to stop thinking yours is the only right one

Rick5895
04-05-2012, 05:11 AM
where on earth did you get Brown was an OLB? He was always an ILB and played it 3 seasons for the steelers before being shifted outside at game 1.

I believe brown was an OLB at Colorado and was drafted to play OLB by the Steelers (1993), although they had Greene and Lloyd there. He moved outside when injuries forced the move and remained outside the rest of his career in the NFL.

El-Gonzo Jackson
04-05-2012, 10:21 AM
Multiple (http://www.advancednflstats.com/2010/12/2010-all-wpa-teams-defense.html) websites (http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/01/fantasy-2011-idp-dynasty-rankings/) listed Timmons as the best linebacker in the entire league in 2010. According to Steelers Lounge (http://www.steelerslounge.com/2011/03/steelers-defense-making-splash-plays/), only Harrison had more 'splash plays' in 2010. Obviously you either don't watch many games or just suck at watching them. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Here's PFF listing him as the 20th best player in the entire league in 2010 as the top ILB:



Hell, here they are interviewing him: http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/07/13/interview-with-lawrence-timmons-lb-pittsburgh-steelers/

I dont think Timmons is a bust at all. I think he is a solid ILB. But you cant rely on websites that use statistical metrics like Profootball Focus to evaluate players.

Even their comment regarding Timmons as the heir to James Farrior's position at LB is a bit confusing. The Mack and Buck ILB positions in the 3-4 require different skill sets and Timmons IMO is not as well suited to the Mack LB position.

Statistically comparing ILB's like Timmons, London Fletcher, Brian Urlacher, Jerrod Mayo, Patrick Willis, etc against each other when they never played against the same offenses, in similar conditions and many other variables is something that the geeks that run those sites should know is HUGELY flawed.

Steel Peon
04-05-2012, 11:31 AM
I feel he has MUCH more work to do at being a run stuffer (and a blitzer as well) because his feet simply over-run his mind and more times than not, he's taking himself out of his gaps and assignments because he's so reckless with his own agility.............I think a key part to his game is his pass-coverage skills. I think he can run with the most athletic tight-end or backs in the game
On your first point I'm not outright disagreeing with you, it's just that maybe I haven't been as observant as you in regards to the tendency of his you speak of. More so, I've seen him darting up and down the LOS, even penetrating into the backfield, crushing whoever has the ball, a la' Polamalu. Again, these are just the plays I remember seeing him make, and, agreeing with you a bit, I think speed is his most valuable asset.

That being said, I've seen him get burnt in the passing lanes more times than I can count. Hell, I think I've seen Woodley make more plays in pass protection than Timmons. And, you could even say the same thing about Troy, who can pick balls off and crush the carrier like no one else, but also has a few break downs when he's in coverage. I just don't think either player is geared for PP.

GMU Steeler
04-05-2012, 11:51 AM
A bust would have been cut by now. Has he been a superstar now? Is he above average for his position and a vital part of the defense, yes. Honestly, I don't think Colbert has had any first round busts when I think about it hard. Some have been better than others e.g. Ben, Troy. Timmons is still a young guy at 26. I want to say that's how old Farrior was when he signed with us.

Steelersfan87
04-05-2012, 04:29 PM
next time you speak to another member like this you will be banned from this board. regardless of his opinion you dont come here and insult our members. everyone has an opinion and you need to stop thinking yours is the only right one

It's not a matter of opinion when you state facts and statistics. He doesn't have an opinion; he's wrong. I probably will say something like this again in the future, so fair warning, I most likely will be banned, and I won't particularly care either.

Bayz101
04-05-2012, 04:57 PM
It's not a matter of opinion when you state facts and statistics. He doesn't have an opinion; he's wrong. I probably will say something like this again in the future, so fair warning, I most likely will be banned, and I won't particularly care either.

I happen to agree with most of your arguments, but I don't think the extra jabs we're appropriate. Just walk away from it if you feel his argument is delusional, don't throw gas into the fire. The argument that Timmons is a bust isn't even worthy of agreeing to disagree in my opinion, but it's certainly one i'd walk away from.

It's not your post that's the problem, it's how you presented it. Just keep it civil, and walk away from this one. He's going to hold his ground, no matter how many people disagree. That's been made clear to me.

Cherinko
04-05-2012, 05:06 PM
He's an average/slightly above average starter. He's not a bust but maybe a bit disappointing. I expect better than that from a #15 overall pick.

Bayz101
04-05-2012, 05:23 PM
That's high expectations, in my opinion. Timmons has had a great young career thus far.

StainlessStill
04-05-2012, 05:39 PM
That's high expectations, in my opinion. Timmons has had a great young career thus far.

He didn't start his first couple years here since we've had wise and veteran-type players that a young impactful player like Timmons couldn't do yet as far as knowing in's and out's of the defense in Farrior & Foote so being as young as he is and only having a few years starting alongside middle linebacker which includes one year at splitting time at outside for injured players AND inside is a good sign that his career is just about getting started. Timmons will blossom.

BengalDestroyer
04-05-2012, 06:05 PM
#1 defense in total yards, passing, and scoring.

lebeau said timmons had a great years, especially considering he had to play 3 of the 4 linebacker positions.

i'll take lebeaus word for it.

Amen.

Steelers5895
04-05-2012, 07:26 PM
Some of the arguements back made sense and that is why i asked for everyone's thoughts. Those of you whp came up with LEGIT opposition I thought that was awesome and look forward to future debates.

Those who added nothing but insults and "rah rah" , you are the steeler fans who embarrass the real steeler fans.

DanRooney
04-05-2012, 09:06 PM
'Busts' don't get hefty second contracts. He's not a bust, he just underperformed last season. And the only reason he didn't crack the starting lineup sooner is because he was injured much of his first season. I like Timmons. Him next to Hightower could give us the best duo at ILB in a long time.

Steelersfan87
04-05-2012, 10:41 PM
He was also hampered by injuries in 2009 as well. Oh noes, maybe he's 'injury prone' too.

As far as my argument; sure, I threw in a couple of insults, because I was annoyed. Fair enough. But I also provided far more legitimate, solid evidence than anybody else on either side of the conversation did. I expect Timmons to have a season somewhere between 2010 and 2011, assuming he and the other linebackers remain healthy and the line is more consistent. I have a hunch that he will improve on his ability to sack, rather than merely pressure, the quarterback as well.

Bayz101
04-05-2012, 11:29 PM
He was also hampered by injuries in 2009 as well. Oh noes, maybe he's 'injury prone' too.

As far as my argument; sure, I threw in a couple of insults, because I was annoyed. Fair enough. But I also provided far more legitimate, solid evidence than anybody else on either side of the conversation did. I expect Timmons to have a season somewhere between 2010 and 2011, assuming he and the other linebackers remain healthy and the line is more consistent. I have a hunch that he will improve on his ability to sack, rather than merely pressure, the quarterback as well.

Timmons ability to sack doesn't concern me at all. He racked up 7 sacks in '09 and another 5 in 2010. This year he's been pretty much an extra coverage body. Take a look at our passing defense rank, I think Timmons contributed to that. Timmons can get to the Qb, I've watched him come close to taking him out running right at him. He almost never get's the opportunity to come from the blindside with his coverage assignments, but he's still put the pressure on when the chance presents itself. Not to mention he played three different positions last year.

Steelersfan87
04-05-2012, 11:47 PM
He does get to the QB when he's told to blitz. However, particularly in the past season and a half, a lot of times he's not able to get the deal done. His number of potential sacks that he would have had if his pass rush was more refined is significantly greater than the number he has been getting lately. This is something that Timmons has acknowledged as well; I remember leading into the 2010 season, he said that his goal was the get 17 sacks. His goal last year was 10. He obviously believes he can rack them up, but he could use some work on getting to his ultimate destination,

Rick5895
04-06-2012, 05:06 AM
'Busts' don't get hefty second contracts. He's not a bust, he just underperformed last season. And the only reason he didn't crack the starting lineup sooner is because he was injured much of his first season. I like Timmons. Him next to Hightower could give us the best duo at ILB in a long time.

Exactly!!, And I hope Hightower is there for us at 24. He is perfectly made for the Steelers.

lipps83
04-06-2012, 11:34 AM
I believe brown was an OLB at Colorado and was drafted to play OLB by the Steelers (1993), although they had Greene and Lloyd there. He moved outside when injuries forced the move and remained outside the rest of his career in the NFL.

He was one of the few players I wanted the Steelers to draft that they wound up actually drafting. I thought he was a first rounder and the Steelers stole him in the 2nd round.

He was an OLB at Colorado and drafted to be OLB. He took over at ILB for Olsavsky I believe part way through his first season because he wasn't going to play over Lloyd or Greene.

A few years later when Lloyd went down he went back to his natural OLB spot and Olsavsky went back to start at ILB.

Rick5895
04-06-2012, 12:26 PM
He was one of the few players I wanted the Steelers to draft that they wound up actually drafting. I thought he was a first rounder and the Steelers stole him in the 2nd round.

He was an OLB at Colorado and drafted to be OLB. He took over at ILB for Olsavsky I believe part way through his first season because he wasn't going to play over Lloyd or Greene.

A few years later when Lloyd went down he went back to his natural OLB spot and Olsavsky went back to start at ILB.

Exactly as I was trying to say to the starter of this thread. But his arrogance, and lack of fact prevented him from seeing the facts.

StainlessStill
04-06-2012, 12:50 PM
The OP may want to read this breakdown of the top 40 ILB's in the NFL.

Timmons comes in at #10 on the list and the writer did indeed did his homework,
as most of his observations exactly mirror my take on Timmons and most peoples
reply's in this thread (even though I stand by my statement and give him more props
in pass-coverage.) Good, quick read and breakdown:


http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/8022/timmons.png

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1129638-br-nfl-1000-top-40-inside-linebackers#/articles/1129638-br-nfl-1000-top-40-inside-linebackers/page/32

SteelersinCA
04-06-2012, 01:32 PM
Come on, don't bring facts to an argument about Timmons being a bust. That's clearly not the intent of this OP.

Steelers5895
04-07-2012, 02:49 PM
those are opinions, not facts. Here is what i'd like to see from him which no one has come to this discussion with:

Tackles for losses
Forced Fumbles
Fumble Recoveries
Sacks
Ints

Tackles are meaningless. trail the play and make the tackle and you get the stat even though you blew the play or it was a 50 yarder.

The above stats are the impact plays I dont see enough of for all the hype he has (see the posted opinion article.)

StainlessStill
04-07-2012, 03:07 PM
those are opinions, not facts. Here is what i'd like to see from him which no one has come to this discussion with:

Tackles for losses
Forced Fumbles
Fumble Recoveries
Sacks
Ints

Tackles are meaningless. trail the play and make the tackle and you get the stat even though you blew the play or it was a 50 yarder.

The above stats are the impact plays I dont see enough of for all the hype he has (see the posted opinion article.)

:blah: My good lord, dude. Lawrence Timmons, as we've stated time and time again, had a monstrous year in 2010 & in many more ways than one, is a staple in our 3-4, zone blitzing style defense that LeBeau is so known with his freakish athletic abilities. I want you to go back and find the plays that went for "50 yards" and us eating dust to get the "meaningless tackle-stat."

You'll probably be searching for a long time because the Steelers RARELY, if ever, give up plays even 20 more yards or longer down the field, which means most of our backers, especially Lawrence Timmons (who led all linebackers in tackles last season with 93) occurred on or at the line of scrimmage, which ALL translates back into the totals and statistics that go into owning the "#1 ranked defense" in the NFL.

As for interceptions and FF's ( Timmons had 1 forced fumble in '11) as I posted earlier, Timmons had about the same amount of interceptions (1) than did our freakin' secondary (you know, the guys paid to force interceptions) with Polamalu (2), William Gay (2) Ike Taylor (2) and Ryan Clark (1).

Again, I can understand you moaning about wanting more production from Timmons (and ANYBODY ELSE for that matter) because last season, he had a very tough task throughout the year to take on playing 3 positions. But you're labeling him a bust, which is the single most laughable thing ever posted here in quite some time. As I said, harp on him for not living up to your standards, fine, but to call him a bust is non-worthy of the 9 pages posted in this thread.

lipps83
04-07-2012, 03:36 PM
those are opinions, not facts. Here is what i'd like to see from him which no one has come to this discussion with:

Tackles for losses
Forced Fumbles
Fumble Recoveries
Sacks
Ints

Tackles are meaningless. trail the play and make the tackle and you get the stat even though you blew the play or it was a 50 yarder.

The above stats are the impact plays I dont see enough of for all the hype he has (see the posted opinion article.)

Are you kidding? This has to be a troll or something.

To get sacks and tackles for losses, you have to be behind the line of scrimmage.

They do not have Timmons blitzing the line often, if ever. He is usually dropping into coverage and/or covering the back coming out of the backfield. Harrison and Woodley put up numbers in those categories because they are consistently behind the line, almost every play.

I don't think Timmons is all world, but he is way above the criticism you are putting on his shoulders.

I have a serious question to you:

Do you watch and understand the game of football?

Rick5895
04-07-2012, 04:02 PM
Are you kidding? This has to be a troll or something.

To get sacks and tackles for losses, you have to be behind the line of scrimmage.

They do not have Timmons blitzing the line often, if ever. He is usually dropping into coverage and/or covering the back coming out of the backfield. Harrison and Woodley put up numbers in those categories because they are consistently behind the line, almost every play.

I don't think Timmons is all world, but he is way above the criticism you are putting on his shoulders.

I have a serious question to you:

Do you watch and understand the game of football?

Stop trying to argue with this person they clearly have no clue. When comparing Brown to Timmons this was the response to me after I tried to explain that Brown was an OLB,

"where on earth did you get Brown was an OLB? He was always an ILB and played it 3 seasons for the steelers before being shifted outside at game 1."


Anyone who understands LB play especially ILB or MLB play understands that they are meant to tackle and thus have high numbers in tackles, with people on the outside funneling the play inside and the DL protecting the LB by keeping the bockers off them..
I agree that Timmons is nowhere near the second coming of jack Lambert but I wonder how we would have fared the last couple of seasons without his speed and ability to go sideline to sideline.

I for one am glad we have Timmons and locked him up last year for the future.

:tt04:

Bayz101
04-07-2012, 04:20 PM
You know what, taking another look at this I realized something. Regardless of Timmon's consistency at his position, he's had an all-star caliber year thus far in his career, and simply watched the linebackers above and below him statistically make it in based on their names alone. I don't see how he can even be considered a "bust".

Timmons was also the part of a Super Bowl winning defense, so with that being said, check this out:

Timmons has often led the league in some defensive statistics, and came short of leading our entire defense in tackles this year. Timmons has a Super Bowl ring.

Timmons IS a leader at his position in the NFL, and our defense.

Peyton Manning has always been one of the top quarterbacks in the game. Manning has one Super Bowl ring. Manning is a clear legend at his position.

So. If Timmons is a bust whilst also ranking as one of the best linebackers on a yearly basis, than Peyton Manning must be a bust too. After all, he only has one ring :hunch:

I don't think he's a bust. Not at all. Timmons will make huge plays for us soon.

Steelers5895
04-07-2012, 04:42 PM
one of 5 years having a great year for a 1st round pick? again, your glazing over the kind of plays that make a LB great and not average. He barely has any. He does lead the league I am sure trailing RBS or TES as they get first downs on 3rd and long. If you watch the games I'll bet you conveniently forget that...hence his high tackle totals.

To say he has met expectations of a 1.15 draft pick is really looking at it with rose colored glasses. All I am hearing is opinion and 2010, 2010, 2010. where was he is the playoff games or super bowls when warner and rodgers tore our #1 defense apart?

I want my supposed Stud as you guys call him making at least 1 impact play.

StainlessStill
04-07-2012, 04:57 PM
Dude, ever since I've been in this thread I've been throwing around "stats" and "facts" of last year, 2010 and even before that when talking about the sheer fact that Timmons hasn't started every season he's been here due to established veterans in front of him. It takes a very long time for a young man (and the potential leader in the middle, which Timmons NOW IS) to crack the starting lineup at MLB, which is why Stevenson Sylvester & guys like Keryan Fox hasn't been able to get much playing time and threaten to take over within the last couple years.

I love how you will not indulge yourself into Timmons stats and completely ignore the fact that 2010 does indeed, count as "facts" regarding his NFL career, a very solid one at that. He's only 26 freakin' years of age and is just NOW having the opportunity to be a leader in the middle.

The only opinion in here is yours because you tip-toe around the facts we give you & manipulate and twist words in your favor. The ironic thing is that you haven't provided one of your facts VS your opinion YET. I still haven't heard a convincing explanation on why you think Timmons is a bust (very harsh word) other than not making enough "splash" plays.

Anyway, I really don't have anymore to say on the subject. Timmons will be near the top of the league soon & is in NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM in bust category.

Steelers5895
04-07-2012, 05:08 PM
Dude, ever since I've been in this thread I've been throwing around "stats" and "facts" of last year, 2010 and even before that when talking about the sheer fact that Timmons hasn't started every season he's been here due to established veterans in front of him. It takes a very long time for a young man (and the potential leader in the middle, which Timmons NOW IS) to crack the starting lineup at MLB, which is why Stevenson Sylvester & guys like Keryan Fox hasn't been able to get much playing time and threaten to take over within the last couple years.

I love how you will not indulge yourself into Timmons stats and completely ignore the fact that 2010 does indeed, count as "facts" regarding his NFL career, a very solid one at that. He's only 26 freakin' years of age and is just NOW having the opportunity to be a leader in the middle.

The only opinion in here is yours because you tip-toe around the facts we give you & manipulate and twist words in your favor. The ironic thing is that you haven't provided one of your facts VS your opinion YET. I still haven't heard a convincing explanation on why you think Timmons is a bust (very harsh word) other than not making enough "splash" plays.

Anyway, I really don't have anymore to say on the subject. Timmons will be near the top of the league soon & is in NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM in bust category.

top of the league...uhhhh...when? well, considering would could have drafted Joe Staley (top of the league for at least 3 years) or Dwayne Bowe (top 10 wr) or Leon Hall (top 10 cb) with that pick, makes his slow progress more frustrating. We won a super bowl with Farrior and Foote so Staley on our line or Hall as our DB and even Bowe on our team, how good would we be?

Steelersfan87
04-07-2012, 05:40 PM
those are opinions, not facts. Here is what i'd like to see from him which no one has come to this discussion with:

Tackles for losses
Forced Fumbles
Fumble Recoveries
Sacks
Ints

Tackles are meaningless. trail the play and make the tackle and you get the stat even though you blew the play or it was a 50 yarder.

The above stats are the impact plays I dont see enough of for all the hype he has (see the posted opinion article.)

Obviously you didn't read my earlier post.

According to Steelers Lounge (http://www.steelerslounge.com/2011/03/steelers-defense-making-splash-plays/), only Harrison had more 'splash plays' in 2010.

Timmons has had more tackles for loss than Woodley has.

lipps83
04-07-2012, 07:27 PM
one of 5 years having a great year for a 1st round pick? again, your glazing over the kind of plays that make a LB great and not average. He barely has any. He does lead the league I am sure trailing RBS or TES as they get first downs on 3rd and long. If you watch the games I'll bet you conveniently forget that...hence his high tackle totals.

To say he has met expectations of a 1.15 draft pick is really looking at it with rose colored glasses. All I am hearing is opinion and 2010, 2010, 2010. where was he is the playoff games or super bowls when warner and rodgers tore our #1 defense apart?

I want my supposed Stud as you guys call him making at least 1 impact play.

You clearly don't watch and understand football.

I, for one, am glad that Timmons is there to trail behind and make those tackles, because you know what (and obviously you don't because you don't pay attention to games) THAT MEANS NO ONE ELSE MADE THAT TACKLE, THE SCHEME THEY RAN IS BUSTED AND THAT IS WHY THAT PERSON IS THERE GETTING TACKLED BY TIMMONS. If Timmons doesn't make that tackle.....that's probably a touchdown.

Stop hating on the guy. This is apparently a personal grudge of some sort because you have clearly demonstrated to every single member of this forum that you clearly do not understand even the most basic defensive responsibilities of positional players.

Steelers5895
04-07-2012, 08:39 PM
You clearly don't watch and understand football.

I, for one, am glad that Timmons is there to trail behind and make those tackles, because you know what (and obviously you don't because you don't pay attention to games) THAT MEANS NO ONE ELSE MADE THAT TACKLE, THE SCHEME THEY RAN IS BUSTED AND THAT IS WHY THAT PERSON IS THERE GETTING TACKLED BY TIMMONS. If Timmons doesn't make that tackle.....that's probably a touchdown.

Stop hating on the guy. This is apparently a personal grudge of some sort because you have clearly demonstrated to every single member of this forum that you clearly do not understand even the most basic defensive responsibilities of positional players.

if he was the stud you all say he is, the completion wouldnt happen. instead it is completed, for a first down, and there is timmons trailing the play getting a padded tackle stat.

congrats, your reply made the least sense.

Bayz101
04-07-2012, 08:47 PM
:doh:

MACH1
04-07-2012, 09:00 PM
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2011/10/full_retard.jpg

Bayz101
04-07-2012, 09:03 PM
http://www.sportsbetonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/ben-roethlisberger-ar-00.jpg

U FUNNY

lipps83
04-07-2012, 11:41 PM
if he was the stud you all say he is, the completion wouldnt happen. instead it is completed, for a first down, and there is timmons trailing the play getting a padded tackle stat.

congrats, your reply made the least sense.

You know what, after seeing your retort I decided to do some soul searching to make sure that I wasn't the one that wasn't clear on what the standard expectations are for a defensive football player.

I have found you to be correct in your argument and I apologize for trying to counter your obviously well-researched and well-thought stance. Lawrence Timmons is not all that he is made out to be.

I was heart-broken though to find that one of my favorite players, Troy Polamalu has also been beaten for a pass at times on 1st, 2nd, 3rd and long plays, sometimes he trailed to make the tackle and sometimes he didn't and was beaten for a touchdown.

Seeing this, and after wiping the mist from my eyes I delved deeper into the obvious to me now conspiracy that Troy Polamalu is a not only not a GREAT player, he isn't really GOOD either.

He also didn't make sufficiently more 'splash' plays, as you like to call them, than Timmons did. They were fairly even in total.

He only had:

Tackles for losses - 7 (5 more than Timmons but still not a sexy high number like future hall of famer Kavell Conner had (12 total to lead the league, he attacks RB's like a starved tiger being let out of a cage))
Forced Fumbles - 0 (2 fewer than Timmons, if I coach the Steelers I am getting ready to cut Troy, this is deplorable)
Fumble Recoveries - 1 (1 more than Timmons, chalk it up to "right place, right time" since its easy when the ball bounces right to you)
Sacks - 1 (1 fewer than Timmons, how are these guys even in the NFL?)
Ints - 2 (1 more than Timmons, chalk this one up to "right place, right time" as well, all he has to do is stand there and catch the ball)

Gosh, really digging into this how can they keep justifying keeping these horrible players on the team?

Right after I type this I am sending an email to Mike Tomlin and will be CC'ing Art and Dan Rooney as well. I will not stand for this. The money that I give the team is for them employing players capable of high caliber 'splash plays', not low-grade "also-was" players like Timmons and Polamalu.

If Troy is reading this, I hope he feels guilty about stealing that Defensive MVP trophy from Clay Matthews 2 years ago. Yeah, he had a good splash play year then but he ain't good no more!

I can't stand trailing tacklers. I want splash plays!

lipps83
04-07-2012, 11:59 PM
This is the email that I am sending Mike about Troy and Lawrence.

Dear Mike Tomlin,

Did you know future hall of famer Kavell Conner was taken with the 33rd pick in the 7th round of the 2010 draft? If it wasn't for supplemental picks, Mr. Conner would have been selected after what would have been the 2010 Mr. Irrelevant? Mr. Conner was the first supplemental pick in the 7th round. In case you didn't know, Mr. Conner lead the league in tackles for loss.

What is going on with the scouting teams? Who is running them and how exactly are they evaluating potential talent?

I don't pay .0000000000257% of your salary so that you and the rest of the team can keep missing out on studs in the draft. I demand some answers on this.

It is also with great heartache and mixed emotion, but I see that our Troy Polamalu just doesn't have what it takes anymore to stand with the best of them. He was beaten on occasion for some long passes, some of them leading to touchdowns and sometimes he trailed but made the tackle. Anyone can trail and make the tackle, Mike. Timmons too, they just aren't making the splash plays that they need to be.

Its time to get some fresh blood on this team. Our players should be like Hyena's that haven't eaten for weeks attacking baby gazelle's. Instead, they are like vultures circling in the air waiting for the prey to be weak enough to feed. They just don't have it anymore.

If you fail to make the necessary changes, I will be forced to start an internet petition to have you removed from the Head Coaching position, effective 'as soon as I have the necessary amount of signatures'.

Sincerely,
Louis Lipps

Steelersfan87
04-08-2012, 12:18 AM
Lawrence Timmons was tied for 7th in the league in "defeats" in 2010 with 29 (James Harrison was 4th with 31; some guy named Daryl Smith led the league with 35)

Defeats are defined as any play (tackle, assist, pass defensed, interception, or forced fumble) that does one of three things:
1) causes a turnover
2) causes a loss of yardage
3) stops conversion on third or fourth down

wera176
04-08-2012, 08:46 AM
Lawrence Timmons was tied for 7th in the league in "defeats" in 2010 with 29 (James Harrison was 4th with 31; some guy named Daryl Smith led the league with 35)

Damn those pesky facts! :tt03:

Without watching the film with the coaches, it's not always easy to tell if someone on Dick's D (or most other's) is doing a good job or not. Dick feels timmons is doing a great job, who the heck are we to second guess him?

StainlessStill
04-08-2012, 10:54 AM
Lawrence Timmons was tied for 7th in the league in "defeats" in 2010 with 29 (James Harrison was 4th with 31; some guy named Daryl Smith led the league with 35)

Don't you get it? Even though that you are providing STRAIGHT, HARD, FOOTBALL FACTS on Lawrence Timmons, the 2010 season simply doesn't matter because that's all we keep on referring to. That's just too many facts that retort the OP's argument, thus, 2010 doesn't count as progression in Mr.Timmons's young career.:coffee:

Steelers5895
04-08-2012, 11:40 AM
you guys make it like because he has a good year in 2010 he has lived up to his 1.15 pick and now his hefty contract that is one of the big contracts keeping us from signing out WRs long term.

He has done nothing before 2010, did nothing in the playoffs or Super Bowl and had a major regression in 2011. Great players would overcome being moved around, he didnt, he flat out was useless last year.

What he do before 2010?

so our critiria now is one good year? in that case Troy Edwards was not a bust. he had one good year.

wow you guys set your standards low.

FrancoLambert
04-08-2012, 12:12 PM
The problem here lies in how the question was worded.
Bust ???..too strong a word to describe Timmons. He has not been a bust in any way, shape or form.
Disappointment may be a better word....yeah, maybe a mild one to date. But he still has room to grow and I still like him as one of our LB's.
LeBeau's too classy of a guy to degrade one of his players....so his comments may not be objective enough.
This coming season will reveal a lot more about his upside especially when he is surrounded by different players.

tony hipchest
04-08-2012, 09:19 PM
you guys make it like because he has a good year in 2010 he has lived up to his 1.15 pick and now his hefty contract that is one of the big contracts keeping us from signing out WRs long term.

He has done nothing before 2010, did nothing in the playoffs or Super Bowl and had a major regression in 2011. Great players would overcome being moved around, he didnt, he flat out was useless last year.

What he do before 2010?

so our critiria now is one good year? in that case Troy Edwards was not a bust. he had one good year.

wow you guys set your standards low.i think youre setting the standard for posters low. if you are going to start an argument, atleast read the rebuttals.

i stated long ago that timmons led ALL ILB's in sacks in 2009.

Steelersfan87
04-09-2012, 12:47 AM
you guys make it like because he has a good year in 2010 he has lived up to his 1.15 pick and now his hefty contract that is one of the big contracts keeping us from signing out WRs long term.

He has done nothing before 2010, did nothing in the playoffs or Super Bowl and had a major regression in 2011. Great players would overcome being moved around, he didnt, he flat out was useless last year.

What he do before 2010?

so our critiria now is one good year? in that case Troy Edwards was not a bust. he had one good year.

wow you guys set your standards low.

First of all, the guy's been a starter for 3 years, and as anybody that even pretends to be a Steeler fan knows, rookies don't start in Dick LeBeau's defense. Not Polamalu, not Woodley, not Ziggy Hood, not Cam Heyward...doesn't matter where you were picked, you're not starting. It's also not an indictment of his abilities that he wasn't a regular starter by year two either, because they had an entrenched starter that they were obviously happy with, considering they brought him back after he demanded a release after seeing the writing on the wall (that it was time for Timmons to start in 2009). Yet he still had 5 sacks, an 89 yard interception, a forced fumble, and a fumble recovery. Or should we already be calling Heyward a bust, since, more likely than not, he will not be a starter this year?

In his first year as a starter (2009), he began the season injured, and only started 13 games, and injuries were an issue all season. Yet he still had 7 sacks (pretty sure that's more than Farrior ever had in a season) and 4 forced fumbles.

It's funny that you discount the fact that he had an arguably (according to some sites) all-pro quality season as his second year as a starter, and his first that he entered while healthy. I've already pointed out an abundance of stats from this season, so it's probably not necessary to go into too much detail to stress the quality of season that he is only one year removed from, but from friendly stats, such as 2 interceptions, TEN passes defensed (for an ILB, very impressive), 2 forced fumbles, 2 fumble recoveries, and 3 sacks, to go along with 135 tackles or so, doesn't sound like a season a bust is even capable of achieving. He also had 22 tackles in the postseason in 2010.

As for last season, you cannot discount the reality that the entire front 7 had pretty much an off year, partially due to injuries. His game overall did regress, which is most obvious in the first quarter of the season before Harrison was injured, of course. Yet he still had 20 tackles between the first two games. After that, his numbers are unimpressive until after Harrison returns. Against the Bengals, he only had 5 tackles, but he also had a pass defensed and an interception. He averaged about 8 tackles a game for the rest of the season. He also finished off the season strong with a sack in each of the last two games.

harrison'samonster
04-09-2012, 09:51 PM
The problem here lies in how the question was worded.
Bust ???..too strong a word to describe Timmons. He has not been a bust in any way, shape or form.
Disappointment may be a better word....yeah, maybe a mild one to date. But he still has room to grow and I still like him as one of our LB's.
LeBeau's too classy of a guy to degrade one of his players....so his comments may not be objective enough.
This coming season will reveal a lot more about his upside especially when he is surrounded by different players.

I agree this coming season is going to reveal a lot about him. He could take more of a leadership role on the field with Farrior gone, and he could be the one to step up and make big plays in the middle of the field.

I'm a little bit disappointed with him so far, but I couldn't say he's a bust.

dez09231
04-10-2012, 03:13 AM
You guys are dismissing his value.

Whenever Troy is hurt, Timmons becomes the movable piece. He's the guy that drops into zone, plays man, plays in the box, etc. Timmons has immeasurable value when Troy is hurt.

ricardisimo
04-10-2012, 07:07 AM
Weird. His numbers dropped off in every column, but so did lots of guys. His role changed and that was reflected in his stats. Nnamdi's role changed and he pretty much sucked last year. I doubt anyone's going to call him a bust, though.

LVSteelersfan
04-10-2012, 03:53 PM
Calling someone a bust is subjective at best. Limas Sweed. definitely a bust. Timmons. not even close to bust. Maybe not living 100% up to 1st round draft pick, but you can say that about players all over the league. He is highly serviceable with flashes of brilliance. That is not a bust in my book.