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View Full Version : Tomlin riding coattails of Cowher?


NSMaster56
04-06-2012, 09:03 PM
Forgive me if the thread title sounds 'trolling', it's not intentional. I just don't how else to pose my 'hypothesis'.

I like Mike Tomlin. I think he's been a great coach for this team. The Rooneys clearly made a great choice in hiring him and I look forward to him behing the HC of the Steelers for some time. However, the question just recently occured to me and I don't know why it didn't hit me sooner:

Is Mike Tomlin overrated as a coach? Or, more specifically, has the success of the Steelers been more based on the seeds planted by Cowher as opposed to anything Tomlin has done?

Granted, the bulk of the Steelers success under either Cowher or Tomlin has been with Dick LeBeau as DC, so its' most likely that he is the fulcrum of the Steelers success, but I digress to my HC comparison...

Big Ben, Troy, Hines, Heath, Holmes, Hampton, Harrison, Farrior, Keisel, Ike, ... the main corps of the 2-time title winners and one-time runner-ups were all brought in by Sgt. Slaughter, not Omar Epps.

The case against Tomlin: Inability to improve the OL, misfiring on a few high draft picks (Shard/Timmons/Sweed), sticking with Arians for years despite him being the clear problem of the offensive scheme(s), dilution of the Steelers 'ground game dominance'.

The case for Tomlin: Kept the Steelers competitive despite losing good coaches like Whisenhunt/Grimm, solid later-round draft picks (Wallace/Woodley/Sanders/Brown), has reached the SB twice despite woeful OL, has transitioned the O fairly seemlessly (and Big Ben has improved as a QB) in the new 'pass first'/spread O NFL.

All things considered, it's most likely that we will not know the mettle of Tomlin until after this corps of players starts to retire/leave via FA. Cowher was quite adept at shining $h!t until it shined like gold during the penny-pinching/continual roster overturn of the 90's.

Until such time, I will wonder if Tomlin can replicate the long-term success of Noll/Cowher and hope the experience he gets now leads to such a future.

Steelersfan87
04-06-2012, 10:24 PM
A lot of the main points of your argument I simply don't agree with. It's not Tomlin's fault that he inherited a quality, veteran team. It's a sign of a GOOD coach to recognize the talent that he has available to him and to resist the desire to blow it up and reshape the team in his own image. For example, Tomlin was a 4-3 man.

It's quite a stretch to call the Mendenhall and Timmons picks misfires, and Sweed was considered a steal at the time. It was the right pick, it just didn't work out. As far as the ground game goes, whenever you have an elite quarterback, your ground game is most likely going to regress. Pouncey, Foster, and Gilbert are all really solid offensive line starters, and Legursky has that capability too. Keep in mind the line had a lot of injuries last year. I think the line can surprise people this year.

Let's also not forget that he is helping to reshape the secondary...well, at least the cornerbacks. He's also made some quality coaching hires so far in Sean Kugler, Al Everest, and Carnell Lake, all of whom made immediate impacts. Hopefully Todd Haley does the same.

55BaileyFan
04-06-2012, 10:41 PM
See I agree the majority of Tomlin's success is based off a team built by Cowher; with that being said it is not his fault he inherited such a great team.

I do think Timmons and Mendenhall are not the breakthroughs they were predicted. They are not bad but not game changers at all.

Tomlin has had major issues with proving to anyone he can rebuild poor parts of our team. Our offensive line is still awful, we have not got depth at defensive line for shit and our secondary is a little above terrible.

And coaches...how the hell is Kugler, Everest and Lake quality after their short tenures? The line still sucked, our special teams was nothing amazing and our secondary was still extremely inconsistent and STILL cannot force turnovers. I think they have potential but lets not jump the game.

He is doing a good job but he is no Cowher. Cowher took over a poor and struggling Steelers team in the early 90's and turned them into a powerhouse. Tomlin is good but not Cowher good and I don't think he'll ever be Noll good.

fer522
04-06-2012, 10:52 PM
See I agree the majority of Tomlin's success is based off a team built by Cowher; with that being said it is not his fault he inherited such a great team.

I do think Timmons and Mendenhall are not the breakthroughs they were predicted. They are not bad but not game changers at all.

Tomlin has had major issues with proving to anyone he can rebuild poor parts of our team. Our offensive line is still awful, we have not got depth at defensive line for shit and our secondary is a little above terrible.

And coaches...how the hell is Kugler, Everest and Lake quality after their short tenures? The line still sucked, our special teams was nothing amazing and our secondary was still extremely inconsistent and STILL cannot force turnovers. I think they have potential but lets not jump the game.

He is doing a good job but he is no Cowher. Cowher took over a poor and struggling Steelers team in the early 90's and turned them into a powerhouse. Tomlin is good but not Cowher good and I don't think he'll ever be Noll good.

what he said!!!!!:iagree:

Steelersfan87
04-06-2012, 11:02 PM
The top ranked passing defense is "a little above terrible"? Did you actually just say that? I can't even take that seriously. I mean...really?

All three of those coaches made IMMEDIATE improvements to their units. Do you not remember the special teams play of 2009?

The depth at defensive line is only a recent issue due to injuries/cuts and retirements. And it's really not that much of an issue if they draft a nose tackle. Ziggy Hood, Corbin Bryant, Brett Keisel, Cameron Heyward, Casey Hampton, Steve McLendon, and a rookie...what would be wrong with that?

If the line was blocking for Peyton Manning, people would have a lot better opinion about that unit than they do blocking for Roethlisberger. Apparently people forget that. He takes more unnecessary sacks than anybody in the league. I would be perfectly happy with Gilbert-Legursky-Pouncey-Foster-Colon.

Bayz101
04-06-2012, 11:27 PM
what he said!!!!!:iagree:

What fer said he said :rofl:

NSMaster56
04-06-2012, 11:48 PM
Yeah, I'm not trying to disparage Tomlin, because it obviously takes acumen, leadership and talent to take any team, even one as talented as the Steelers, with such obvious flaws and keep them a perennial contender. Leading them them to 2 SB's is just extra gravy.

I don't think Tomlin is Barry Switzer or Jim Caldwell. He's not riding coattails that much.

He's probably closer to George Siefert or Mike Martz, if not better.

I think it will be interesting to see how the Steelers adjust the next 5 years as the corps gets older and especially whenever *gulp* LeBeau retires/leaves.

Tomlin has a chance to make a unique legacy in the NFL, should he win another title soon or later on in his (Steelers) coaching career.

Not many coaches succeed for extended periods of time after taking over from another great coach.

SteelerJay
04-07-2012, 12:12 AM
uhm...Cowher went 13 years without winning a Super Bowl

with the teams he had, Parcells would have won at least three..

since you're pinning player selection on Tomlin, how about these winners that Cowher had as qb's - Kent Graham, Mike Tomczak, Tommy Maddox, Neil O'Donnell.

Cowher short changed Kordell....so I won't mention him

Tomlin did a fantastic job addressing weaknesses every year..Ben suspended 4 games, Harrison missing a bunch, key injuries to others etc. . Tomlin's biggest blunder is keeping an injured Ben in all those games last year

Tomlin has done a great job using what he has...when Cowher left, he was burnt out and he thought the team was on a downward spiral. Tomlin turned that around.

Tomlin's biggest downfall will be his reliance on Big Ben....

Steelersfan87
04-07-2012, 01:44 AM
Of course, the big elephant in the room is the fact that Tomlin inherited a franchise quarterback. How many coaches get to inherit a legitimate franchise quarterback? It generally only happens when an older coach retires (Cowher, Tony Dungy).

55BaileyFan
04-07-2012, 08:06 AM
The top ranked passing defense is "a little above terrible"? Did you actually just say that? I can't even take that seriously. I mean...really?

All three of those coaches made IMMEDIATE improvements to their units. Do you not remember the special teams play of 2009?

The depth at defensive line is only a recent issue due to injuries/cuts and retirements. And it's really not that much of an issue if they draft a nose tackle. Ziggy Hood, Corbin Bryant, Brett Keisel, Cameron Heyward, Casey Hampton, Steve McLendon, and a rookie...what would be wrong with that?

If the line was blocking for Peyton Manning, people would have a lot better opinion about that unit than they do blocking for Roethlisberger. Apparently people forget that. He takes more unnecessary sacks than anybody in the league. I would be perfectly happy with Gilbert-Legursky-Pouncey-Foster-Colon.

You realize we were a top passing defense this year because teams stopped throwing and ran the hell out of the ball against us right? The Texans only passed for 21 times for 138 yards because Arians ran for 155 of the Texans 180 yards rushing; and it goes on Ravens dropped 170, the shitty Colts put up 97, the Jags put up 133, the Bengals put up over a 100 and the list goes on. The Steelers on average allow one hundred yard rusher every 2 YEARS, we allowed a handful this year. If you can win running teams will do that; now, its just masked after all Tebow dropped 300 on our secondary.

D-line, you can't say "injuries" because Smith and Keisel have been having injury problems; even Hampton has. Cowher and Noll were legendary for being prepared for that. Tomlin has used a ton of picks on position guys and not enough on quality defensive lineman and offensive lineman.

I'm not bashing Tomlin because I did say he was doing a good job...obviously, we are winning. What I'm saying is that he is not as GREAT as people want you to believe. Billick won a SB and no one thinks he was an amazing coach.

effyou515
04-07-2012, 08:57 AM
Lets see what the Steelers look like in 3 years then I'll tell what kind of a head coach Tomlin is.

Kingmagyar
04-07-2012, 09:22 AM
One of the things about Cowher that was incredible was through the Super Bowl win, Cowher's teams had compiled a record of 108–1–1 in games in which they built a lead of at least eleven points at any time in the game. He knew how to keep the ball away from opponents and close out games.

Biggest gripe against Tomlin is he truly is terrible at time management, and his knack or Lebeau's knack for playing extremely high risk defenses in crucial situations late in games. Denver, and Baltimore come to mind as last second losses where not the safest defense was called given the circumstances.

Time will tell with Tomlin as the team becomes filled with more of his players. On offense all that remain of the starters are Ben, Heath Miller, and Willie Colon. Defense has about 5 Cowher Starters.

jjpro11
04-07-2012, 09:34 AM
You realize we were a top passing defense this year because teams stopped throwing and ran the hell out of the ball against us right? The Texans only passed for 21 times for 138 yards because Arians ran for 155 of the Texans 180 yards rushing; and it goes on Ravens dropped 170, the shitty Colts put up 97, the Jags put up 133, the Bengals put up over a 100 and the list goes on. The Steelers on average allow one hundred yard rusher every 2 YEARS, we allowed a handful this year. If you can win running teams will do that; now, its just masked after all Tebow dropped 300 on our secondary.

D-line, you can't say "injuries" because Smith and Keisel have been having injury problems; even Hampton has. Cowher and Noll were legendary for being prepared for that. Tomlin has used a ton of picks on position guys and not enough on quality defensive lineman and offensive lineman.

I'm not bashing Tomlin because I did say he was doing a good job...obviously, we are winning. What I'm saying is that he is not as GREAT as people want you to believe. Billick won a SB and no one thinks he was an amazing coach.

I'd say every teams' defense in the AFC North was overrated to some degree because of the soft schedule, especially the amount of weak QBs on other teams. Cleveland has nowhere near a top 10 defense, despite their ranking. i will say that we were playing some really nice defense halfway through the year, around the time of the Patriots game. we were unable to get Woodley and Harrison healthy and on the field at the same time. that sucked, because Woodley was having an outstanding season before getting hurt... just as Harrison had returned from his eye injury and had finally recovered from his back surgery in the off-season.

55BaileyFan
04-07-2012, 10:17 AM
Time will tell; I don't think he's going anywhere and if he can just tweak some of his issues then we can keep up our great history.

I hope that we can fix the lines via the draft and play a lot more solid defense this upcoming season.

ShutDown24
04-07-2012, 11:11 AM
I am so ****ing sick of this argument that has no basis in reality whatsoever. Tomlin is a better coach than Cowher.

He goes to the Super Bowl every other year.

So then what most people who argue this try and do, is claim that Tomlin wins with "Cowher's team".

NO.

Timmons, Woodley, Heyward, Hood, Wallace, Johnson, Brown, Sanders, Cotchery, McClendon, Gay, Mendenhall, Moore, Pouncey, Gilbert... And I know I'm missing a few have all been significant contributors.

The Tomlin being overrated thing is bullshit and should have died a long time ago. It's not a cute, smart or even thought provoking topic. It's just dumb.

ShutDown24
04-07-2012, 11:16 AM
misfiring on a few high draft picks (Shard/Timmons/Sweed), sticking with Arians for years despite him being the clear problem of the offensive scheme(s),

Ugh. This is what's wrong with Steelers fans.

Timmons was a wasted first round pick? What the ****? Lawrence Timmons is one of the better inside linebackers in the game. Rashard hasn't been what the staff probably expected when they drafted him, but he's an upper level starter in the league.. Hardly a "misfiring".

And as far as Arians goes, I don't care that most Steelers fans hate the guy, he produced in the top half of the league almost every year. I don't know how that makes a guy the "clear" problem.

Steelerfreak58
04-07-2012, 12:29 PM
Some folks are never satisfied. They think they should get a ring every year as is some team some how some way has done that...

Millers the sh!t
04-07-2012, 12:47 PM
Tomlin ain't bad. Still makes stupid mistakes managing the games at times though. Also seems a little weak when it comes to making decisions. Playing injured Ben, keeping smith around all season when hes injured, etc he needs to learn how to be the dad and not the friend. Also needs To show a little passion he looks like hes getting bored with his job. He's still very young but he's decent. Probably will be really good in 10 years.

lipps83
04-07-2012, 12:52 PM
D-line, you can't say "injuries" because Smith and Keisel have been having injury problems; even Hampton has. Cowher and Noll were legendary for being prepared for that. Tomlin has used a ton of picks on position guys and not enough on quality defensive lineman and offensive lineman.

Over the last three years the Steelers have addressed both sides of the line with generally the first two picks of each draft. So far most of those picks have worked out with the exception of Urbik.

Not every pick is always going to work out the way we would like it too. If you want all-pro players selected at every pick in the draft than you want to play Madden and stay away from real football. 4 out of 5 ain't bad.

2011
1 31 Cam Heyward DE
2 63 Marcus Gilbert OL

2010
1 18 Maurkice Pouncey C

2009
1 32 Evander Hood DE
3 79 Kraig Urbik OL

stb_steeler
04-07-2012, 01:16 PM
We'll see how Tomlin does as the teams roster changes, now that alot of the so called Cowher players are being released.

Steelers5895
04-07-2012, 02:10 PM
One could say Cowher rode off the coattails of Chuck Noll. Cowher inherited Lloyd, Woodson, Dawson, Lake, Eric Green, O Donnell, Foster, Searcy I think too. Plus a half dozen others who were a big part of the 1995 Super Bow run. Can't help what players you are left when you take over, its what you do with them.

NSMaster56
04-07-2012, 03:01 PM
Ugh. This is what's wrong with Steelers fans.

Timmons was a wasted first round pick?

I said misfire, not wasted.

What the ****? Lawrence Timmons is one of the better inside linebackers in the game. Rashard hasn't been what the staff probably expected when they drafted him, but he's an upper level starter in the league.. Hardly a "misfiring".

Shard was taken before CJ2K, Forte and Rice. I understand the breaks of the game, differrent team strategy's, hindsight, etc., but that's still a massive misfire.

Timmons is less of a misfire since 07 was a weak draft and he has turned into a quality LB. However, considering Woodley is better, was drafter later and the Steelers could have used a different position player that year (OL/DB/WR), it's a slight misfire.

Leon Hall, Dwayne Bowe, Joe Staley, Eric Weddle... all could have been Steelers and fit just as well or better than Timmons.

I'm not saying Tomlin blew that pick, it's just worth noting that his first ever draft pick is debatable.

Steelersfan87
04-07-2012, 05:46 PM
You realize we were a top passing defense this year because teams stopped throwing and ran the hell out of the ball against us right? The Texans only passed for 21 times for 138 yards because Arians ran for 155 of the Texans 180 yards rushing; and it goes on Ravens dropped 170, the shitty Colts put up 97, the Jags put up 133, the Bengals put up over a 100 and the list goes on.

Pretty sure the Steelers also led the league in YPA, and possibly QB rating against as well, so it's not just the yardage, smartass. And given the weakness of the pass rush this year, it makes the performance of the secondary MORE impressive. Hilarious. It may not be safe to predict the continued greatness of the secondary into future years, but to deny the credit that they deserved for last year is absurd. Also, if I recall correctly, the secondary in 2010 was either 1st or 2nd in YPA and QBR as well, or something close to that. The reason their yardage was greater then was because they had a historically great rushing defense.

Steelersfan87
04-07-2012, 05:52 PM
Also needs To show a little passion he looks like hes getting bored with his job.

Are you kidding me? Every single post-game press conference he does, he looks like he just got done crying.

So far most of those picks have worked out with the exception of Urbik.

I wouldn't say with the exception of Urbik. The only problem with Urbik is that they gave up on him one year too early in favor of keeping Tony Hills I believe. Urbik is now a quality starter for the Bills.

casteeler
04-07-2012, 07:23 PM
Tebow torches the Steeler D time and time again(then in OT) and people are give the OP crap? I've got news for some of you the Secondary had been sub par for quite a while. The Steelers are great in many areas but the numbers DID lie as far as how competent the Pass defense was coming into the playoffs and a Wildcat QB looked like Joe Montana in January. :banging:

Bayz101
04-07-2012, 07:38 PM
Tebow torches the Steeler D time and time again(then in OT) and people are give the OP crap? I've got news for some of you the Secondary had been sub par for quite a while. The Steelers are great in many areas but the numbers DID lie as far as how competent the Pass defense was coming into the playoffs and a Wildcat QB looked like Joe Montana in January. :banging:

I guess the lack of Ryan Clark, our leading defense player, didn't play a part in anything at all? Pretty sure Cortez Allen was out as well.

NSMaster56
04-07-2012, 07:49 PM
Tebow torches the Steeler D time and time again...I've got news for some of you the Secondary had been sub par for quite a while.

Evidence of this is SB XLIII and the following season (2009) when the D continually melted down in the 2nd half/4th Quarter (Cincy, Oakland, KC...).

Again, such is not to say Tomlin is alone in the blame or that he is a bad coach, it is just worth noting a pattern of clear weakness.

Cowher's teams had flaws for sure, mostly on offense. Perhaps I'm just remembering the old days too fondly, but I believe those problems were mostly due to talent level deficiencies (which is somewhat forgivable given the continual low draft picks and losses in FA).

Cowher only had 3 years of Big Ben running his offense (and Bettis was broken down/retired by then) and one of those years was the SB hangover/BB bad luck w/ injuries year.

The one thing I give Tomlin a world of credit for is motivating the Steelers what seems like every other year, usually after they have a 'rough loss/season'.

The 07 Steelers played quite well without Cowher and might have made a deeper playoff run had Willie not gotten hurt, the 08 Steelers responded masterfully to the playoff loss to the Jags and the 10 Steelers shook off the hangover season and nearly won it all again.

That kind of ability to focus a veteran group, or allow them to regain their focus, is reliant on a great HC and it bodes well for 2012.

casteeler
04-07-2012, 09:24 PM
I guess the lack of Ryan Clark, our leading defense player, didn't play a part in anything at all? Pretty sure Cortez Allen was out as well.

Taylor and Gay looked like pathetic in that game, Clark would have helped but Tebow knew he could exploit An aggressive 8-9 man in the box approach.Clark or Allen wouldn't have saved a team that refuses to fix what's broken (O-Ilne&CBs)

Bayz101
04-07-2012, 09:31 PM
Taylor and Gay looked like pathetic in that game, Clark would have helped but Tebow knew he could exploit An aggressive 8-9 man in the box approach.Clark or Allen wouldn't have saved a team that refuses to fix what's broken (O-Ilne&CBs)

Our first year using newly drafted, young corner backs and we make it to the playoff's with the #1 passing defense. In my opinion, that tell's a story, and without Clark, a defensive leader, the team fell apart.

harrison'samonster
04-07-2012, 09:44 PM
good arguments on both sides. but I think this has been Tomlin's team since he took over. He's earned respect. I do still miss that fire we saw from Cowher though.

Steelersfan87
04-07-2012, 09:57 PM
The issue was not the personnel, it was the gameplan. They (LeBeau and Tomlin) obviously gave Tebow's long arm barely any respect. Let's put it in perspective though. Tebow completed 10 out of 21 passes. He completed passes of 51 yards (Thomas over Taylor; Tebow held the ball for 6 seconds on this play, you don't ask you secondary to cover for that long), 30 yards (Royal for a TD over Gay, a great throw, and Mundy misplayed this), 58 yards (Thomas over Taylor, Taylor was simply beat here), 40 yards (Fells over Gay, a well designed roll out, and Polamalu bit), and 80 yards (Thomas over Taylor; Mundy bites too hard and can't recover, Taylor gets beat and then stiff-armed). That's about 82% of his total yards on 5 plays. Let's also not that before long, they were playing without Hampton and Keisel, Woodley was still far from back to normal, and they were already playing without Clark and Allen. The Steelers barely generated any pressure despite playing 8 and 9 in the box regularly, recording not one sack.

Bayz101
04-07-2012, 10:09 PM
The issue was not the personnel, it was the gameplan. They (LeBeau and Tomlin) obviously gave Tebow's long arm barely any respect. Let's put it in perspective though. Tebow completed 10 out of 21 passes. He completed passes of 51 yards (Thomas over Taylor; Tebow held the ball for 6 seconds on this play, you don't ask you secondary to cover for that long), 30 yards (Royal for a TD over Gay, a great throw, and Mundy misplayed this), 58 yards (Thomas over Taylor, Taylor was simply beat here), 40 yards (Fells over Gay, a well designed roll out, and Polamalu bit), and 80 yards (Thomas over Taylor; Mundy bites too hard and can't recover, Taylor gets beat and then stiff-armed). That's about 82% of his total yards on 5 plays. Let's also not that before long, they were playing without Hampton and Keisel, Woodley was still far from back to normal, and they were already playing without Clark and Allen. The Steelers barely generated any pressure despite playing 8 and 9 in the box regularly, recording not one sack.

And yet someone will STILL find a way to disagree with this logic :chuckle:

stb_steeler
04-08-2012, 01:47 AM
good arguments on both sides. but I think this has been Tomlin's team since he took over. He's earned respect. I do still miss that fire we saw from Cowher though.

I miss the Cowher jaw to. Still have a hard time knowing he's not there anymore. I used to think he would be there forever.

steeltheone
04-08-2012, 08:24 AM
uhm...Cowher went 13 years without winning a Super Bowl

with the teams he had, Parcells would have won at least three..

since you're pinning player selection on Tomlin, how about these winners that Cowher had as qb's - Kent Graham, Mike Tomczak, Tommy Maddox, Neil O'Donnell.

Cowher short changed Kordell....so I won't mention him

Tomlin did a fantastic job addressing weaknesses every year..Ben suspended 4 games, Harrison missing a bunch, key injuries to others etc. . Tomlin's biggest blunder is keeping an injured Ben in all those games last year

Tomlin has done a great job using what he has...when Cowher left, he was burnt out and he thought the team was on a downward spiral. Tomlin turned that around.

Tomlin's biggest downfall will be his reliance on Big Ben.... Cowher wins 2,3 or 4 rings with BR7 or a franchise QB at the helm.

steeltheone
04-08-2012, 08:26 AM
We'll see how Tomlin does as the teams roster changes, now that alot of the so called Cowher players are being released.

This is where Tomlin can make his mark....He is a good coach, he can become great with a new roster rebuild.

wera176
04-08-2012, 08:36 AM
The issue was not the personnel, it was the gameplan. They (LeBeau and Tomlin) obviously gave Tebow's long arm barely any respect. Let's put it in perspective though. Tebow completed 10 out of 21 passes. He completed passes of 51 yards (Thomas over Taylor; Tebow held the ball for 6 seconds on this play, you don't ask you secondary to cover for that long), 30 yards (Royal for a TD over Gay, a great throw, and Mundy misplayed this), 58 yards (Thomas over Taylor, Taylor was simply beat here), 40 yards (Fells over Gay, a well designed roll out, and Polamalu bit), and 80 yards (Thomas over Taylor; Mundy bites too hard and can't recover, Taylor gets beat and then stiff-armed). That's about 82% of his total yards on 5 plays. Let's also not that before long, they were playing without Hampton and Keisel, Woodley was still far from back to normal, and they were already playing without Clark and Allen. The Steelers barely generated any pressure despite playing 8 and 9 in the box regularly, recording not one sack.

Oh damn, bringing facts to the argument? :applaudit:

Wasn't the run defense #8? (I know it was, no need to look). That really doesn't sound like a D that got the hell run on them....

Lot's of folks on D made mistakes or just didn't make the play in that game, not just the CBs or Ike. Frankly, I hold Dick more accountable that anyone for that game, but this is why they play the game (all 60+ minutes of it! :banging: )

Heck, I think with a healthy Ben we will that one even with the D's problems.

BTW, Tomlin is not riding Cowher's coattails. Maybe the first season, but after that he was his team. Sure, he inherited Ben and Dick (etc) but he knew not to screw that up... ;)

steeltheone
04-08-2012, 02:16 PM
Oh damn, bringing facts to the argument? :applaudit:

Wasn't the run defense #8? (I know it was, no need to look). That really doesn't sound like a D that got the hell run on them....

Lot's of folks on D made mistakes or just didn't make the play in that game, not just the CBs or Ike. Frankly, I hold Dick more accountable that anyone for that game, but this is why they play the game (all 60+ minutes of it! :banging: )

Heck, I think with a healthy Ben we will that one even with the D's problems.

BTW, Tomlin is not riding Cowher's coattails. Maybe the first season, but after that he was his team. Sure, he inherited Ben and Dick (etc) but he knew not to screw that up... ;)The Steelers were fulll of injuries, no doubt. Still no excuse for losing that game. Pats beat them by 35.

LVSteelersfan
04-08-2012, 05:00 PM
I agree that we lost to Denver due to a faulty game plan. You cannot put 8-9 in the box and leave no one back for a safety valve when your pass rush is ineffective due to so many injuries. We should have beaten them blindfolded. Lebeau's D did not do their job in that game. I blame Tomlin for playing Ben in any of the last three games after he was injured for the offensive woes in that game. But I still don't think Cowher is head and shoulders above Tomlin. I can't get the look on Cowher's face after we lost in the playoffs year after year after year and he insisted on trying to turn Stewart into a QB. Sorry, but Stewart should have been jettisoned off the team years before. The Front Office should have spent more time concentrating on finding a real QB instead of that mess of Stoudt, Brister, Malone, Woodley, etc. I thought ODonnell was pretty good but gets a bad rap because of one game.

wera176
04-08-2012, 07:10 PM
The Steelers were fulll of injuries, no doubt. Still no excuse for losing that game. Pats beat them by 35.

Agreed, I don't think injuries were the problem. I wonder if the coaches were looking past Denver a little, dunno.... The point I was trying to make was in spite of it all, with just the addition of healthy Ben I think we win. We'll never know...

But we gotta admit that we Steeler fans are a little spoiled to be even having this discussion...

Millers the sh!t
04-08-2012, 08:32 PM
Are you kidding me? Every single post-game press conference he does, he looks like he just got done crying.



I wouldn't say with the exception of Urbik. The only problem with Urbik is that they gave up on him one year too early in favor of keeping Tony Hills I believe. Urbik is now a quality starter for the Bills.

That "just got done crying" look can easily be confused with the "just got done yawning" look and the "just woke up from a nap" look.

I could care less about Tomlins post game interviews. If Ive heard one, Ive heard em all. He recycles the same smooth talking garbage lines that were impressive to hear the first 4 weeks of his career with us but tend to have grown old, repetitive, predictable and worn out.

I live in Mass so I don't get as many games. But it seems like Tomlin grows less enthusiastic on the sidelines more and more each season. Also seems like his indecisiveness is putting to many responsibilities in other coaches or players hands when he should be the guy taking care of it. I've seen way too many time mismanagement issues, terrible play selecting, wasting time, time outs, and valuable yards and downs trying to figure out if he wants to put a 30 yd. FG on suishams shoulders. or watched the defense/offense get too unsettled and blow a lead instead of calling one of the 2-3 remaining TO's and giving the Men a minute to get their heads back on straight. I think Tomlins too indecisive himself, that's why he doesn't be the boss an make these important decision when the times come up. Just like him waffling on suisham and taking 8 minutes to think if he should give the kid a shot, and just ultimately decides to back out and punt the ball or go for it. Etc. I've seen it too many times where the Steelers are watching the game slip through their fingers and all Tomlin is doing is giving that blank look like "I know I should be making a decision right now, but I'm not sure what that decision is"

And seeing how the better majority of Steelers games I do get to watch are primetime. I would be hoping that Tomlin could feign a little extra passion knowing that the cameras are feeding Millions of TV's across the world.

Millers the sh!t
04-08-2012, 08:44 PM
I guess the lack of Ryan Clark, our leading defense player, didn't play a part in anything at all? Pretty sure Cortez Allen was out as well.

It mostly proved that our "shutdown24" is FAR from being an elite CB. Ike really ain't all that. Should be called "average24"

tony hipchest
04-09-2012, 12:16 AM
Ugh. This is what's wrong with Steelers fans.

.i pretty much agree with your takes in regards to tomlin. it has been a seamless transition between him and cowher and im sure thats EXACTLY what most "steeler fans" would want.

anyone who takes over this team is taking over the rooneys team. enough credit isnt given to colbert who is one of the best in the biz along with omar (who should have been a GM several years ago).

with that being said, we have gladly rid of the management group who feels the need to constantly (on a daily basis) point out all that is wrong with steeler fans).

i know some boards thrive on being a little exclusive group that is above and beyond all other steelerfans but this place is not it (and much better off for it).

we are all steelerfans, and at steelersfever, we dont make an hourly habit of eating our own.

your statement has nothing to do with all steelerfans or even steelerfans in general.

you are just regurgitating the generalizations you have become accustomed to.

steelerfans are widely regarded as the most passionate and knowledgable bunch in the nfl. if that is aproblem, there are plenty of boards out there- namely bungle, ravens, browns, and litterally an entire universe of steelerfan hater boards out there to post on.

:tt04:

tony hipchest
04-09-2012, 12:38 AM
just to be clear shutdown24, you arent being warned, infracted, edited, audited, censored, or prevented from any forms of free speech. anyone is more than welcome to bash steelerfans as much as they want on this board. if thats the route you chose to take, just expect to be taken to task with no special protection for being a holier than thou steelerfan.

if you are treated like a typical bungle fan who says the same, it should be expected. :smile:

Steelersfan87
04-09-2012, 12:55 AM
That "just got done crying" look can easily be confused with the "just got done yawning" look and the "just woke up from a nap" look.

I could care less about Tomlins post game interviews. If Ive heard one, Ive heard em all. He recycles the same smooth talking garbage lines that were impressive to hear the first 4 weeks of his career with us but tend to have grown old, repetitive, predictable and worn out.

I live in Mass so I don't get as many games. But it seems like Tomlin grows less enthusiastic on the sidelines more and more each season. Also seems like his indecisiveness is putting to many responsibilities in other coaches or players hands when he should be the guy taking care of it. I've seen way too many time mismanagement issues, terrible play selecting, wasting time, time outs, and valuable yards and downs trying to figure out if he wants to put a 30 yd. FG on suishams shoulders. or watched the defense/offense get too unsettled and blow a lead instead of calling one of the 2-3 remaining TO's and giving the Men a minute to get their heads back on straight. I think Tomlins too indecisive himself, that's why he doesn't be the boss an make these important decision when the times come up. Just like him waffling on suisham and taking 8 minutes to think if he should give the kid a shot, and just ultimately decides to back out and punt the ball or go for it. Etc. I've seen it too many times where the Steelers are watching the game slip through their fingers and all Tomlin is doing is giving that blank look like "I know I should be making a decision right now, but I'm not sure what that decision is"

And seeing how the better majority of Steelers games I do get to watch are primetime. I would be hoping that Tomlin could feign a little extra passion knowing that the cameras are feeding Millions of TV's across the world.

Okay, first of all, what the hell does looking like you're passionate on the sidelines have to do with how good of a coach you are? Clearly Bill Belichick must not be a very good coach. Secondly, I find your "observations" to be naive and ignorant.

It mostly proved that our "shutdown24" is FAR from being an elite CB. Ike really ain't all that. Should be called "average24"

5.1 YPA against (5th in the league). 63% "success rate" (8th in the league). 2.5 YAC (10th in the league; Keenan Lewis was first in the league at 1.3 btw). 41.7% completion percentage against (2nd in the league, .5% behind Revis). 54.8 QBR against (4th in the league).

Bayz101
04-09-2012, 01:07 AM
It mostly proved that our "shutdown24" is FAR from being an elite CB. Ike really ain't all that. Should be called "average24"

I've never called him elite, or shutdown, so that statement (opinion) doesn't bother me in any way. Ike is a great corner. Take a major piece of a a squad away, the squad will diminish.

lloydwoodson
04-09-2012, 10:51 AM
Tomlin often gets confused with a general manager for some reason. His job is not to choose personnel but to win with the personnel he has. He has an amazing record. Don't forget Tomlin took over an 8-8 Steelers team from Cowher. Tomlin's worst season is 9-7 and you make a post to mar his success? Go back under your bridge, troll. Anyone who thinks Timmons is a bust doesn't know what they are talking about. He is only 25 years old! He will be in multiple Probowls before his career is over. Mendenhall has been running behind a poor offensive line (although they have been getting better every year) for an OC that doesn't practice running plays or use a FB, and is still averaging better than 1000 yards for the last three years on a 4.1 ypc. Remember how bad FWP was getting stuffed against good teams before him? A bust is Sweed or Worley not Probowl calibre players.

steeltheone
04-09-2012, 06:02 PM
I've never called him elite, or shutdown, so that statement (opinion) doesn't bother me in any way. Ike is a great corner. Take a major piece of a a squad away, the squad will diminish.

He is damn close to shutdown!

MACH1
04-09-2012, 07:53 PM
Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

tony hipchest
04-09-2012, 09:03 PM
...and herpes.

:hunch:

Steelersfan87
04-09-2012, 09:55 PM
It's not like there's an actual definition of "shutdown corner". Is there really that big of a difference between the .5% that separated Ike Taylor's completion percentage against and Revis', as I posted above?

Sean95m
04-10-2012, 01:56 AM
Bottom line is our last 2 coaches are 1-1 in Super Bowl's. Not bad, not Chuck Knoll but I'll take it. Also Cowher didn't win one until he got a franchise QB and our current coach inhereated one. Bottom line we have more rings than any other franchise in the league! Sixburgh baby!