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El-Gonzo Jackson
06-07-2012, 12:36 PM
Steelers coaches line up work for absent linemenJune 7, 2012 12:31 am
By Dan Gigler / Pittsburgh Post-Gazette


Owing to an NFL rule preventing draftees from joining their teams until their collegiate coursework is completed, Steelers first- and second-round picks David DeCastro and Mike Adams haven't attended organized team activities while they wind down their academic careers on campuses in Palo Alto, Calif., and Columbus, Ohio, respectively.

That hasn't kept new homework from Pittsburgh from coming in. And unlike a college gut course, offensive line coach Sean Kugler said "they can't BS their way through it."

Kugler said Wednesday that the two linemen were outfitted with laptops with the team's playbook and corresponding video and have been sent weekly updates as more of the offense is installed. They'll join the team next week, but they also have been studying their materials and asking Kugler questions during nightly phone calls.

"Those guys have been doing a great job communicating with us," Kugler said. "To ask the types of questions that they're asking shows me that they're looking at their stuff."

When they arrive, Kugler said that they'll run with first offense -- DeCastro at right guard and Adams at left tackle.

"Those guys have a lot of catch-up work to do, so I'm going to give those guys a lot of work. Nobody just comes in and is handed a job," Kugler said, but conceded that two rookie starters on the offensive line is not out of the question.

"If they're the best guys, they're going to play. I don't have a fear of starting rookies if they're ready. If they're ready, they'll play. If they're not ready, they won't."

Kugler is bullish on Willie Colon's potential. Colon this offseason moved to left guard after playing the first six years of his career at right tackle.

"Willie's doing an excellent job in there. He's really full force. He's sold on being a guard and that's the main thing. If he was reluctant and didn't want to be a guard, it wouldn't work," Kugler said, adding that Colon's physical stature suits him to the position.

"He's got excellent strength. He's got good pulling potential that you really can't utilize at tackle, that you can really utilize at guard. The way that we run our offense he would be a perfect fit right there."

He added that Colon will be an asset against the schemes run by AFC North defenses.

"[In] our division ... you're matched up with guys covered on the guards. Willie's got the strength and the ability to match up with those guys inside. ... I think he's going to be an excellent guard and he's only going to benefit us up front."

• Before the draft, Marcus Gilbert was slated to move from right tackle to left, but that plan is on hold until the Steelers can evaluate Adams, a natural left tackle. During OTAs, Gilbert has worked at both tackle spots, and Kugler said Adams will, too.

"The best guys are going to play at their set positions. It's not going to be a rotational thing or anything like that. I would hate to have to say to Marcus Gilbert halfway through training camp 'oh, by the way -- move to left.' "

• Two-time Pro Bowl center Maurkice Pouncey is fully recovered from nagging ankle injuries that kept him out of two games late last season and the Steelers' playoff loss to Denver, Kugler said.

"This has been his best offseason since he's been here. I'm excited to watch Maurkice Pouncey play this year."

• Kugler said the transition to a new offense has been relatively painless for the line.

"There's terminology changes -- how they hear formations and stuff like that. But all in all [with] the line calls and those things, we've tried to remain consistent."

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/steelers-coaches-line-up-work-for-absent-linemen-639300/#ixzz1x87kvzkT

tony hipchest
06-07-2012, 03:22 PM
kevin colbert on sirius just now- colon "not a prototypical tackle" because he is 6'2" and probably has 32" arms. tremendous upside at guard.

first time i saw him at camp i saw a road grader guard- tim ryan

"Willie's doing an excellent job in there. He's really full force. ...," Kugler said, adding that Colon's physical stature suits him to the position.



why do people such as o-line coaches, scouts, players/analysts and gm's keep harping on his arm length and height? :chuckle:

teegre
06-07-2012, 04:15 PM
THE COLON
I have been saying for years that The Colon would be far better suited inside.

I never thought that The Colon was very good as a RT, but I think that he was better than most give him credit. For example, there is some stat that he gave up the second fewest sacks than any other OT (second to Jake Long). The Colon's problem: false starts. Playing out of position, he HAD to get a jump on the DEs/OLBs; ergo, he had a propensity to false start...early & often. Whereas, playing inside, he won't need to get that "early" start...and will flourish.

He will go from "above avergae" (as a RT) to "good" (as a LG).

DD
When I first saw this kid play, I stood up & asked, "Who is THAT!?!" He is like a 300 lb fullback: the kid can pull & block D-linemen, as well as block through the hole/into the second level (like a FB). I saw him, at times, block three guys in a row: a DT, then ILB, and then SS.

POUNCEY
With The Colon & DD able to handle their own match-ups, Pouncey will no lomnger have to "make up" for the lackluster play of Ramon Foster (or Doug Legusrky or whomever). In turn, Pouncey will be EVEN BETTER than he has already been.

SUMMATION
Why not start the rookies?

DD will dominate from day one. Pouncey will be able to handle his man (obviously). Ergo, The Colon at LG will be able to help Adams. And, besides, Adams is ALREADY an upgrade over Jon Scott.

Adams > my 13 month old > Scott

In other words, Adams need not be "great" to be an "upgrade." [Note: I think that Adams will indeed develop into a fine LT...much like Marvel Smith.]

Steelersfan87
06-07-2012, 04:22 PM
kevin colbert on sirius just now- colon "not a prototypical tackle" because he is 6'2" and probably has 32" arms. tremendous upside at guard.

first time i saw him at camp i saw a road grader guard- tim ryan

"Willie's doing an excellent job in there. He's really full force. ...," Kugler said, adding that Colon's physical stature suits him to the position.



why do people such as o-line coaches, scouts, players/analysts and gm's keep harping on his arm length and height? :chuckle:

Having prototypical guard size doesn't make you a bad tackle or a good guard. Especially when you've never played guard before.

teegre
06-07-2012, 04:42 PM
Having prototypical guard size doesn't make you a bad tackle or a good guard. Especially when you've never played guard before.

Very true. There are hundred of guys who are the right "size"...yet, simply cannot play.

I think that what many of us are doing is "projecting." The Colon has been a pretty good RT...who, many of us have felt, would be even better if he played OG.

It's sort of akin to the NFL draft: no one "truly" knows, but projections can indeed be made (eg most of us can project that DD is going to be a monster).

Make sense?

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-07-2012, 05:04 PM
kevin colbert on sirius just now- colon "not a prototypical tackle" because he is 6'2" and probably has 32" arms. tremendous upside at guard.
first time i saw him at camp i saw a road grader guard- tim ryan

"Willie's doing an excellent job in there. He's really full force. ...," Kugler said, adding that Colon's physical stature suits him to the position.



why do people such as o-line coaches, scouts, players/analysts and gm's keep harping on his arm length and height? :chuckle:

Link please. I thought Jim Wexell tweeted that Colon has 36" arms or something, at least longer than Marcus Gilbert's 33.5" long arms that were measured at the combine.

so my flawed evaluation of Colon from my La-z-boy seems to only correlate with similar evaluations from Colbert, Kugler, Tunch, Ryan, Tony Pauline and Pat Kirwan. That cant be right.

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-07-2012, 05:18 PM
Having prototypical guard size doesn't make you a bad tackle or a good guard. Especially when you've never played guard before.

No, but just because a guy has never played guard before, doesnt mean that you have to put him at OT in the NFL. If the player lacks the ideal size for an NFL OT, then you are doing him a favor by putting him inside at a position that he can succeed.

Players that played college OT and translated to guard in the NFL:
-Jahri Evans- Bloomsberg college
-Carl Nicks- Nebraska
-Kendall Simmons- Auburn OT
-Ramon Foster- Tennessee OT
-Logan Mankins - Fresno St
-Jeremy Zuttah (Tampa Bay)- Rutgers OT
-Marshall Yanda (Ravens) Iowa RT
-Robert Gallery Iowa OT
.........and the list goes on.........

tony hipchest
06-07-2012, 06:37 PM
Having prototypical guard size doesn't make you a bad tackle or a good guard. Especially when you've never played guard before.of course not, just like having a giant schlong doesnt make you into a great porn star. it certainly helps though.

just like not having brains doesnt make one a good wr or bad qb. just ask kordell. having brains certainly helps. prototypical size is the difference of 2nd round drew brees being replaced by 1st round philip rivers and then miami passing on him in FA in favor of an expired d. culpepper.

the point is that to a degree the professionals disagree with you. they think he will go from a good RT to an exceptional guard, especially in the AFC north with the types of defensive fronts they will face 6X/year (more if playoffs).

i have to side with the experts on this. colbert intimated today that colon became a starting RT for the steelers more out of neccessity and by design and he excelled there.

his statement led me to believe that grimm and wisenhunt probably had plans to convert him to guard from the get-go. i think that grimm guy knows a lil something about o-line and who may be best suited where. :noidea:

Steelersfan87
06-07-2012, 07:03 PM
Disagree with me about what? What is it that I've said in the past that anything in this thread contradicts? Did I ever say that he had ideal tackle size? Ever? Did I ever deny that it's been widely stated throughout his career that he has prototypical guard size? Ever? I don't even understand what you're arguing against. The only thing that I've ever stated was that he has been a quality starting right tackle, regardless of his size. And I also pointed out that his arms are longer than Marcus Gilbert's. I've also never said that I anticipate him failing to be able to make it at guard.

Why is it that you and Gonzo always go around the horn with me whenever Colon is brought up? I don't think we even disagree on anything except the fact that Gonzo thought Tony Hills would be fine at RT and I didn't.

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-08-2012, 09:12 AM
Why is it that you and Gonzo always go around the horn with me whenever Colon is brought up? I don't think we even disagree on anything except the fact that Gonzo thought Tony Hills would be fine at RT and I didn't.

I have no idea what "going around the horn" is supposed to mean in this context. Your contention that just because Colon played RT at Hofstra, it was his best position in the NFL and not guard is what I find the most short sighted. As I pointed out earlier, it happens a lot. Colbert, Kugler and others have pointed out that due to Colon's build he is better suited to guard.

If somebody has a different opinion than yours, you refer to them and their point of view with derogatory verbage and tone.....but when evidence comes out that you were wrong, you backpedal and deflect. Reminds me of somebody that used to post here.:blah:

Sharkissle29
06-08-2012, 09:33 AM
you all love to argue...would have gotten along great with my ex.

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-08-2012, 09:39 AM
you all love to argue...would have gotten along great with my ex.

Is she hot?? :wink02:

Sharkissle29
06-08-2012, 09:46 AM
Is she hot?? :wink02:

Only if you like tall skinny blondes. :drink:

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-08-2012, 10:13 AM
Only if you like tall skinny blondes. :drink:

Nothing wrong with that. Athletic Brunettes are more my type, so good thing my wife fits that description.

I enjoy a good spirited discussion about a lot of topics. I dont try to insult others point of view by calling them assenine, retarded, gibberish, etc. and I'll definately admitt when I am wrong. ( I am on record as saying that I didnt think Stephen Jackson would be a good NFL RB)

In this case, its not a lock that Adams starts at LT, but I think we now finally have enough good talent at OT going forward. I still believe that Willie Colon was always better suited to guard, as Kulger and others have said. I think our run game and interior pass protection suffered for years by having worse players in there.

Steelersfan87
06-08-2012, 12:57 PM
I have no idea what "going around the horn" is supposed to mean in this context. Your contention that just because Colon played RT at Hofstra, it was his best position in the NFL and not guard is what I find the most short sighted.

WHAT!? I NEVER said anything like this! I have never said that Colon's best position has to be right tackle. I have said that his size doesn't necessarily make guard a better position and I have said that having never played guard, we can't know what he'll be. But I've NEVER suggested that he can't be better at guard than he's been at tackle.

So NOW, where is it that we're disagreeing such that every time Colon is discussed, one of you two need to bring me up, even if not by name?

Riddle_Of_Steel
06-08-2012, 01:45 PM
DODENS GRAV = DOWN BY LAW

Same narcissistic argumentative courtroom tone, same tendency to backtrack and contradict himself when proven wrong, same tendency to keep trying to force his opinions long after being proven wrong, same tendency to claim credit for revelations made by other posters.

TheVet
06-08-2012, 04:35 PM
LOL Doddens!! You can't complain - you've admitted that you take multiple positions on some topicc, sometimes just for the sake of debate (as you described in your Starks switcheroo).

We've argued the Colon topic before, and people are fairly recalling your position on the topic. The upside must be the fun of the debate, but this is the downside. If you argue different positions, you risk the loss of credibility, or the embarrassment of forgetting your prior positions. You need to accept that if you want to argue both sides.

Bayz101
06-08-2012, 04:42 PM
I'd greatly appreciate it if this thread didn't turn into a flame war. Please keep things civil, or i'll be left with no choice but to close it. Thank you.

On topic: Colon can play Guard. He did it in college if i'm not mistaken. We're set at Lineman now, and last year we we're SCREWED at the same position :chuckle:

I think we're in good shape for next season, boys! :drink:

Hawaii 5-0
06-08-2012, 04:58 PM
I'd greatly appreciate it if this thread didn't turn into a flame war. Please keep things civil, or i'll be left with no choice but to close it. Thank you.

On topic: Colon can play Guard. He did it in college if i'm not mistaken.


actually you are mistaken. Colon never played a down at guard in college, he was exclusively a RT at Hofstra.

nevertheless, you are still a great guy...:thumbsup: :chuckle: :drink:

Bayz101
06-08-2012, 05:07 PM
actually you are mistaken. Colon never played a down at guard in college, he was exclusively a RT at Hofstra.

nevertheless, you are still a great guy...:thumbsup: :chuckle: :drink:

Why was he listed as a G coming out of college in several draft profiles?

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=55385&draftyear=2006&genpos=OG

That has him as a Hofstra OG, with a secondary position of OT. Can't trust the internet.

EDIT: Even sports illustrated: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2006/draft/players/47867.html

Bayz101
06-08-2012, 05:11 PM
I don't know. The profiles have him listed as a OG, but a career tackler at Hofstra. Draft profiles must have thought he'd be better fitted at OG.

Edit: That seems to be it. He was a tackle throughout his college career, but draft profile writers had him better fitted at OG. SI's reasoning:

"Lacks top height and better off inside at guard."

TheVet
06-08-2012, 05:17 PM
I'm loving the chance to see Colon at guard. He's been OK at tackle, in fact, he's been looking pretty good relative to the embarrassing state of our OL over the past five seasons.

This is something that should have happened long ago (at least according to folks not named Arians). But with that problem out of the way, and with the infusion of higher-upside OTs Adams and Gilbert, there's no reason to delay moving Colon to his most natural position - especially since that's our weakest link otherwise. The definition of "above the line" is rising across the OL.

I'm still shaking my head over the total awesomeness of these off-season moves.

Why was he listed as a G coming out of college in several draft profiles?
It was just the consensus of knowledgeable NFL personnel folks, Steelers folks included - they projected Colon at OG. But we had to get past the Arians problem first.

Hawaii 5-0
06-08-2012, 05:54 PM
On the Steelers: Guard duty not a hassle for Colon

May 27, 2012

By Ray Fittipaldo / Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

For years, Steelers offensive lineman Willie Colon heard the chatter about a position change. And, even though former offensive coordinator Bruce Arians repeatedly shot down the speculation, Colon knew someday he would be making the switch from right tackle to guard.

"I knew it was coming," Colon said. "You hear it enough, it's coming from somewhere."

Sure enough, after Arians was relieved of his duties and the team drafted highly regarded tackle prospect Mike Adams from Ohio State with their second pick last month, Colon received the phone call from new offensive coordinator Todd Haley.
Effective immediately, Colon was starting at left guard.

"The speculation] was always that I was a good tackle; they just figured I'd be a great guard," said Colon, a fourth-round draft pick from Hofstra in 2006. "I was never against it. All I asked was that if it happened, it happened now and not in August. They honored that."

This is the first time Colon has played guard at any level. He was strictly a tackle in high school and college and for his first six seasons as a professional. Not only is Colon moving from the right side of the line to the left, where different footwork is involved, but guards have to possess a more complete knowledge of the offense.

Tackles usually block defensive ends by themselves, or with assists from tight ends or fullbacks. They don't have to know much about the intricacies of the line's interior play.

As a guard, Colon must have an ability to read linebackers and safeties. He must know what his center and the other guard are doing on every play because they work together on combination blocks. He'll have to react much more quickly and make more split-second decisions because he is playing closer to the ball.

Colon was able to work out the kinks in the first week of organized team activities last week. After each practice, he put in extra work with veteran lineman Trai Essex, who has played tackle, guard and center in the league over the past eight years.

"Physically, it won't be a problem," Essex said of Colon. "He already is a road-grader. That's his forte. That's who he is.

"The mental part will be challenging. This is a crucial time for him, and he's taking advantage of it. When he knows what he's doing, he moves anyone out of there. He'll be an asset to our offensive line at guard."

Colon also has been leaning heavily on All-Pro center Maurkice Pouncey.

"Pouncey is a genius when it comes to the Xs and Os," Colon said. "Obviously, he's a stud on the field. I try to learn from him as fast as I can. He'll tell me different things on and off the field to help me pick it up faster. It's all about jelling. This is what OTAs are all about.

"When August comes, we're not having this conversation. We're just hitting the ground running. It's a great time for us to learn and get better."

Colon hasn't played much in recent seasons. He injured a triceps in the opener against Baltimore last year and was placed on injured reserve. In '10, he missed the entire season with an Achilles tendon injury.

Here's how much has changed in that time: The last time he played a full season, he was the young guy on a veteran line. Now. he'll be the elder statesman on a young line loaded with high draft picks.

Pouncey is entering his third season. First-round pick David DeCastro is expected to nail down the starting job at right guard in training camp. Marcus Gilbert is entering his second season after becoming the starting right tackle last season, and Adams is the likely starter at left tackle, unless Essex beats him out.

"I'm not a fan of what could be or potential," Colon said. "We have to be able to jell together and work together and do what we have to do to be a great line. We obviously have the potential, but, if we don't get it done, it doesn't mean anything."

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/on-the-steelers-guard-duty-not-a-hassle-for-colon-637780/#ixzz1xEmWnwzp

Steelersfan87
06-08-2012, 06:20 PM
DODENS GRAV = DOWN BY LAW

Same narcissistic argumentative courtroom tone, same tendency to backtrack and contradict himself when proven wrong, same tendency to keep trying to force his opinions long after being proven wrong, same tendency to claim credit for revelations made by other posters.

Please point out where I have contradicted myself and where I have been wrong. I also have no idea what you're talking about regarding claiming credit. What have I claimed credit for?

Also, what is your problem? Jeez. Did I kick your dog? I'd like to think that I'm entitled to defend myself when people accuse me of saying and doing things that I have not.

LOL Doddens!! You can't complain - you've admitted that you take multiple positions on some topicc, sometimes just for the sake of debate (as you described in your Starks switcheroo).

You mean like when you said that you convinced me suddenly that Max Starks was an underachiever, in response to which I pulled up a quote of myself calling him an underachiever weeks earlier?

We've argued the Colon topic before, and people are fairly recalling your position on the topic. The upside must be the fun of the debate, but this is the downside. If you argue different positions, you risk the loss of credibility, or the embarrassment of forgetting your prior positions. You need to accept that if you want to argue both sides.

People are claiming that I said that Colon has to be a better tackle than guard because he hasn't played guard. Yet I've never said this. Correcting somebody that inaccurately recalls my position does not count as taking two positions.

Nobody likes having words put in your mouth, and it's getting a little old. Once again, I have never, at any point, claimed that Colon can't be as good of a guard as he is a tackle. Here (http://forums.steelersfever.com/search.php?searchid=317531&pp=30) is every single post that I have ever made on this forum that mentions Colon. I know that nobody is going to actually bother to look, but I urge you to find me at any point saying that Colon can't be as good at guard as he is at tackle. This is the closest you'll find:

People still think Colon would be a better guard than tackle based on absolutely no valid information whatsoever? When are people going to get over this already?

Although even I will admit that this wasn't the smartest thing to say. When I said "valid information", I should have said "proof on the field", because of course there is "valid information" about his potential at guard. But what I have been stressing is that it's just that, potential, because he's never played guard before. Do we really know that he'll be great at guard? No, of course not, because he has yet to play guard. Would I bet on him playing well? Of course.

Here's another comment I made about Colon to guard not long after he got injured last year:

As far as the whole Colon to G crap goes, I don't see the point of moving a player that is quality at his position to a position that he's never played. Colon is a slightly above average RT. There's no need to move him. And Gilbert would have been at LT next year regardless, so moving Colon would mean that you still need a RT. With Gilbert and Colon at the tackle spots and Pouncey at center, those positions should be set for at least a few years. What is needed is two guards. I don't think Kemoeatu will survive the salary cap next year. Frankly, I hope he doesn't. If the Steelers can draft a guard in the first 3 rounds that is quality and then sign a competent free agent to take the other guard position, I would be pretty content with the o-line.

Keep in mind that this is before three major things:

1) Gilbert proving he can play right away
2) drafting DeCastro
3) drafting Adams

If these 3 things didn't happen, Colon would probably be lining up at right tackle right now with Gilbert at left tackle, which is why the team told Gilbert to prepare to play left tackle when the season ended. Being able to move Colon turned into a luxury that they previously did not have, because for years, they only had two players that were even capable of playing tackle, namely Starks and Colon. However, the above statement does not mean that I have ever been averse to Colon moving to guard; just that before this year, it wasn't the team's best option. Now it is, and now they've done it.

Even I speculated about Colon moving to guard right before this year's draft:


Bouchette says he was told the Steelers are not as high on him [Cordy Glenn] as he previously thought. I wonder if they see him as a true guard, and if they mean for him to play tackle, does that mean they plan on moving Gilbert or Colon to guard?

I even said right after the draft that Colon moving to guard would be the best option long-term for the team:


If they are true to their claim that it is their desire to put the best 5 players on the field, then Adams might be playing RT by the end of the year, with Colon moving to G. We'll see what happens in training camp though.

And here's what I said right after the move to guard was made public:


Indeed, and this is exactly in line with what they said right after the draft. But I'm still quite surprised. Excited, but very, very surprised. I don't think anybody that really understands the way this organization typically works actually predicted that this would happen this season, because it's certainly not in line with their modus operandi.

Here is more CAUTIOUS OPTIMISM about Colon's move:

Willie Colon moving to both a new position and the other side of the field will of course raise question marks, but again, we have to keep in mind that the overall quality of play from the LG spot in recent years has not been particularly great to begin with. Colon is easily the most physically gifted player to fill the spot since Faneca left, however, and he is already a veteran of the line, and has known for a month already of the change, so the transition should not be overly bumpy.

And on that note, here's a bonus just for TheVet: me ripping the o-line talent back in September:

It's pretty obvious that the Steeler o-line talent is among the worst, though it's improving, especially when Colon is in the lineup, which, unfortunately, for a second straight year, he won't be.

Now, where has my position changed? The only things that I've disagreed with anybody with are:

1) Believing that Colon is above average at right tackle.
2) Believing that moving Colon before this year would have made the line worse because Colon is an above average RT and the dropoff at RT would have been greater than the improvement at G.
3) Believing that Colon's height and arm length were not much of a hindrance for him at RT.

Anybody can feel free to disagree with me on those things, but please don't accuse me of backpedaling when I have not. I've always been a big fan of Willie Colon, more than most. I've also felt that he shouldn't be moved to guard until this year because, as I said above, I believe the line would have been worse with Essex or Hills at RT. I also believe that, with the talent on the line now, it was smart to move him to guard. But I also believe that, because he's new to the position and the left side of the field, and because he was already damn good at tackle, that it would not be smart to be so sure we will see a significant improvement from him this year. Might he be better at guard than tackle? Yeah. Will he be? I don't know, and neither does anybody else. It's all projection right now, so for now I merely say that he should be about as good a guard as tackle. I don't think he is suddenly going to be named to the Pro Bowl.

Also, just for the record. I do admit when I'm proven wrong. tony hipchest corrected me when I said that Flozell Adams was not always partially deaf and I owned up to it.

Hawaii 5-0
06-08-2012, 08:17 PM
Please point out where I have contradicted myself and where I have been wrong. I also have no idea what you're talking about regarding claiming credit. What have I claimed credit for?

Also, what is your problem? Jeez. Did I kick your dog? I'd like to think that I'm entitled to defend myself when people accuse me of saying and doing things that I have not.



You mean like when you said that you convinced me suddenly that Max Starks was an underachiever, in response to which I pulled up a quote of myself calling him an underachiever weeks earlier?



People are claiming that I said that Colon has to be a better tackle than guard because he hasn't played guard. Yet I've never said this. Correcting somebody that inaccurately recalls my position does not count as taking two positions.

Nobody likes having words put in your mouth, and it's getting a little old. Once again, I have never, at any point, claimed that Colon can't be as good of a guard as he is a tackle. Here (http://forums.steelersfever.com/search.php?searchid=317531&pp=30) is every single post that I have ever made on this forum that mentions Colon. I know that nobody is going to actually bother to look, but I urge you to find me at any point saying that Colon can't be as good at guard as he is at tackle. This is the closest you'll find:



Although even I will admit that this wasn't the smartest thing to say. When I said "valid information", I should have said "proof on the field", because of course there is "valid information" about his potential at guard. But what I have been stressing is that it's just that, potential, because he's never played guard before. Do we really know that he'll be great at guard? No, of course not, because he has yet to play guard. Would I bet on him playing well? Of course.

Here's another comment I made about Colon to guard not long after he got injured last year:



Keep in mind that this is before three major things:

1) Gilbert proving he can play right away
2) drafting DeCastro
3) drafting Adams

If these 3 things didn't happen, Colon would probably be lining up at right tackle right now with Gilbert at left tackle, which is why the team told Gilbert to prepare to play left tackle when the season ended. Being able to move Colon turned into a luxury that they previously did not have, because for years, they only had two players that were even capable of playing tackle, namely Starks and Colon. However, the above statement does not mean that I have ever been averse to Colon moving to guard; just that before this year, it wasn't the team's best option. Now it is, and now they've done it.

Even I speculated about Colon moving to guard right before this year's draft:




I even said right after the draft that Colon moving to guard would be the best option long-term for the team:




And here's what I said right after the move to guard was made public:




Here is more CAUTIOUS OPTIMISM about Colon's move:



And on that note, here's a bonus just for TheVet: me ripping the o-line talent back in September:



Now, where has my position changed? The only things that I've disagreed with anybody with are:

1) Believing that Colon is above average at right tackle.
2) Believing that moving Colon before this year would have made the line worse because Colon is an above average RT and the dropoff at RT would have been greater than the improvement at G.
3) Believing that Colon's height and arm length were not much of a hindrance for him at RT.

Anybody can feel free to disagree with me on those things, but please don't accuse me of backpedaling when I have not. I've always been a big fan of Willie Colon, more than most. I've also felt that he shouldn't be moved to guard until this year because, as I said above, I believe the line would have been worse with Essex or Hills at RT. I also believe that, with the talent on the line now, it was smart to move him to guard. But I also believe that, because he's new to the position and the left side of the field, and because he was already damn good at tackle, that it would not be smart to be so sure we will see a significant improvement from him this year. Might he be better at guard than tackle? Yeah. Will he be? I don't know, and neither does anybody else. It's all projection right now, so for now I merely say that he should be about as good a guard as tackle. I don't think he is suddenly going to be named to the Pro Bowl.

Also, just for the record. I do admit when I'm proven wrong. tony hipchest corrected me when I said that Flozell Adams was not always partially deaf and I owned up to it.


wow, that must have taken you all day to post...

Steelersfan87
06-08-2012, 09:57 PM
Any second it took to post is too long. I shouldn't have to defend myself against ridiculous accusations about taking both sides of the same argument.

Also, another reason to be skeptical of Colon making the Pro Bowl in 2012 as a guard: He's played one game in two years. It's difficult to know what to expect from him because of that. Not just whether he'll be at game speed, but whether he'll have the requisite endurance to finish out the season and whether he'll be more prone to injury (or re-injury). There are plenty of reasons to temper your expectations for Colon this year. Enough to make it silly to attack somebody if they don't believe he HAS to be better at guard because he's 6'3".

On the other hand, there are factors extraneous to Colon that put him in a position to succeed that may FORCE him to be better, even if he actually hasn't become better, like 1) surrounding him with better talent, 2) having the team owner mandate that the QB get rid of the ball faster and throw it away more often (which will improve not only the 'stats', but the public impressions of ALL of the linemen), and 3) hiring a new offensive coordinator that early reports indicate will be more balanced, less predictable, and focus less on plays that take a while to develop.

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-09-2012, 09:44 AM
It was just the consensus of knowledgeable NFL personnel folks, Steelers folks included - they projected Colon at OG. But we had to get past the Arians problem first.

Exactly. Its just like how everybody had Kendall Simmons projected to guard in the NFL draft, even though he played OT at Auburn. Same with Tony Bergstrom from Utah this year, or Amini Silatolu, Carl Nicks, Herman Johnson-LSU, etc.

teegre
06-09-2012, 12:53 PM
What everyone needs to remembr is that at different levels, player's physical assets & requirements change.

A RB in HS is often converted into a WR in college. Heck, sometimes HS RBs are converted into CBs.

And that same type of "switch" occurs from college to pros. Joey the Mouth was a DE in college, but switched to OLB (I know that the positions are extremely similar, but there is a tad of a switch that occurs). Many 4-3 college DTs become 3-4 DEs (again, very similar positions).

The best example that I can think of is Carnell Lake switching from LB to SS.

SUMMATION:
Whether or not The Colon EVER played OG or not, many NFL scouts have "projected" him as an OG. And now, he is playing in the "correct" position for his physical attributes. As in: I am if the opinion that he'll flourish as an OG. .

teegre
06-09-2012, 01:11 PM
To clarify:
When I am talking about "physical attributes" I am referring to lateral movement, blocking strength, ability to pull, & straight line speed (height & arm length are a distant second).

The Colon does not have great lateral movement (shifting sideways, to get in front of defenders)...which is needed for playing OT.

What The Colon does really well is stonewalling a blocker (blocking strength). Once he gets his hands on them, he stops them.

At RT, he couldn't sidle fast enough to get in front of defenders; hence, he "had" to false start (in order to get a jump on the defenders). As an OG, all he has to do is stand still & block (which he does really well).

Oh, and from what I've seen in his run blocking, he has shown promise at pulling & straight line speed/straight line blocking.

And, he is short. LOL

Steelersfan87
06-09-2012, 01:29 PM
Exactly. Its just like how everybody had Kendall Simmons projected to guard in the NFL draft, even though he played OT at Auburn. Same with Tony Bergstrom from Utah this year, or Amini Silatolu, Carl Nicks, Herman Johnson-LSU, etc.

I don't think it's this simple. I think Colon's first opportunity to play was when Starks went down, so that's where they put him, and then he just never lost the job. Starks' spot was also easily the weakest link on a line that included 3 Pro Bowlers in Smith, Faneca, Hartings, and a very solid Simmons. Let's face it, he wasn't going to replace any of those guys.

Also, Colon was drafted before Arians was the head coach, and filled in for Starks at RT, again, before Arians was the head coach. I have a hard time believing that Arians had monolithic control over where linemen were to be played; that Larry Zierlein and Sean Kugler couldn't move guys around if they wanted to. As I've previously said, maybe the coaching staff believed that they didn't have anybody else that could play right tackle until Marcus Gilbert proved himself last year (Adams wasn't an option last year because of his $5 million salary; he had to be cut), so they couldn't move Colon if they wanted to.

But "Steelers folks" didn't project him as a guard...read his press conference, it's been posted several times already. They projected him as both a guard and a tackle, as they did with Marcus Gilbert last year. Tony Hills also ended up being both a guard and a tackle, as did Trai Essex. They may eventually try to turn Ramon Foster into a guard/tackle hybrid too now.

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-09-2012, 02:28 PM
I don't think it's this simple. I think Colon's first opportunity to play was when Starks went down, so that's where they put him, and then he just never lost the job. Starks' spot was also easily the weakest link on a line that included 3 Pro Bowlers in Smith, Faneca, Hartings, and a very solid Simmons. Let's face it, he wasn't going to replace any of those guys.

Also, Colon was drafted before Arians was the head coach, and filled in for Starks at RT, again, before Arians was the head coach. I have a hard time believing that Arians had monolithic control over where linemen were to be played; that Larry Zierlein and Sean Kugler couldn't move guys around if they wanted to. As I've previously said, maybe the coaching staff believed that they didn't have anybody else that could play right tackle until Marcus Gilbert proved himself last year (Adams wasn't an option last year because of his $5 million salary; he had to be cut), so they couldn't move Colon if they wanted to.

But "Steelers folks" didn't project him as a guard...read his press conference, it's been posted several times already. They projected him as both a guard and a tackle, as they did with Marcus Gilbert last year. Tony Hills also ended up being both a guard and a tackle, as did Trai Essex. They may eventually try to turn Ramon Foster into a guard/tackle hybrid too now.

I never knew that Arians was the Head Coach. :noidea:

Russ Grimm
RE: Willie Colon, Hofstra
Offensive Tackle
4th Round – 131st Overall

Can he play both the guard and tackle positions?
Russ Grimm: He should be able to. He has enough athletic ability. He strictly played right tackle at Hofstra. He's both. We'll start him out as a tackle and go from there.


http://www.jlsports.net/news_colon2.html

After Tomlin took over, they never drafted any decent linemen, but rather "weapons" like Mendenhall and Sweed to protect Ben. We all know how that worked out. If they drafted somebody like Anthony Collins instead of Bruce Davis, then Colon would have been able to move inside where he would excel even more due to his size and skill set.

Steelersfan87
06-09-2012, 02:35 PM
Obviously that was a typo. :flap:

Unfortunately would haves and should haves don't count. I'm sure everybody in the Steelers organization would like picks like Sweed and Davis back, but every team has busts. Of course they did draft Urbik, but everybody knows that story now.

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-09-2012, 05:10 PM
Obviously that was a typo. :flap:

Unfortunately would haves and should haves don't count. I'm sure everybody in the Steelers organization would like picks like Sweed and Davis back, but every team has busts. Of course they did draft Urbik, but everybody knows that story now.

Yes, but the sad thing about that 2008 draft is that most of the draftniks that used to post here had a better mock than the Steelers picks of Sweed, Davis and Hills. So the "should have picked" prospects do count IMO....in a different thread.

RT is arguably the place that the least athletic, but large body O lineman can play. Just see guys like Jon Runyan, Flozell Adams, Orlando Brown, Tony Pashos. Colon is a better athlete, but smaller in stature and could have better served the team at OG....IMO.

Steelersfan87
06-09-2012, 05:18 PM
Well, the Sweed pick, in my opinion, is kind of hard to fault. He did have great potential coming out of college, which, after all, is why he was picked in the second round. Then he dropped a couple balls and it got in his head. Then Mike Wallace caught that big third down pass week 1 of 2009 and surpassed him in the depth chart. Then he just kept getting injured. Honestly, it's interesting to wonder what might have happened in 2009 if Wallace didn't jump his spot. Sweed would've been the #3 guy then. Maybe reps would have cured his bout of the dropsies. But at this point that's just another hypothetical, like what the 2008 draft could have been, or what the line would've been like with Colon at guard in 2009.

Hawaii 5-0
06-09-2012, 07:37 PM
Well, the Sweed pick, in my opinion, is kind of hard to fault. He did have great potential coming out of college

I remember feeling elated that we had been able to draft Mendy and Sweed because they had "fallen" to us in the first two rounds,

yet another reminder that it takes a couple of years before you can truly evaluate a draft class.

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-09-2012, 11:29 PM
I remember feeling elated that we had been able to draft Mendy and Sweed because they had "fallen" to us in the first two rounds,

yet another reminder that it takes a couple of years before you can truly evaluate a draft class.

Yeah, I remember hoping the took Jeremy Zuttah in the second, then after the Sweed pick wanting Anthony Collins at OT, then again in the fourth hoping for Carl Nicks, but they took Hills. Flat out painfull.

teegre
06-10-2012, 08:35 AM
I remember no being upset with the 2008, but also not loving it. 

I didn't think that the Steelers needed a RB, but was "accepting" that it would happen.  Personally, I liked Ray Rice (who could have been had in R2)...but figured it was Jonathan Stewart.  I had watched Spinny destroy USC's defense (who had three R1 LBs); so, I could "handle" that pick.  

Likewise, an injured Sweed made a ton of sense (he was a top 20 player, prior to his injury).  

Bruce Davis was a calculated risk.  At the time, he was a sack machine...but could not cover.  I wanted Philip Wheeler...and so, i didn't like the pick, but could understand the rationale.  In hindsight, Cliff Avril would have been the best pick of all.  

Tony Hills, like Sweed, was a top 50 player who had been injured.  So, again, the pay-off could have been huge.  Alas...  

In hindsight:  

R1:  DeSean Jackson  
R2:  Ray Rice  
R3:  Cliff Avril (or Jermichael Finley) 
R4:  Carl Nicks  

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-10-2012, 10:03 AM
I remember no being upset with the 2008, but also not loving it. 

I didn't think that the Steelers needed a RB, but was "accepting" that it would happen.  Personally, I liked Ray Rice (who could have been had in R2)...but figured it was Jonathan Stewart.  I had watched Spinny destroy USC's defense (who had three R1 LBs); so, I could "handle" that pick.  

Likewise, an injured Sweed made a ton of sense (he was a top 20 player, prior to his injury).  

Bruce Davis was a calculated risk.  At the time, he was a sack machine...but could not cover.  I wanted Philip Wheeler...and so, i didn't like the pick, but could understand the rationale.  In hindsight, Cliff Avril would have been the best pick of all.  

Tony Hills, like Sweed, was a top 50 player who had been injured.  So, again, the pay-off could have been huge.  Alas...  

In hindsight:  

R1:  DeSean Jackson  
R2:  Ray Rice  
R3:  Cliff Avril (or Jermichael Finley) 
R4:  Carl Nicks  

I'll agree that I had no problem with the Mendenhall pick. he was BAA. Sweed too was an injured kid with great college production. Many of the draftniks had us taking Early Doucet as Hines Ward's heir.

Bruce Davis was a workout machine that had good combine numbers. On tape his sacks came by running around players and not taking on the block (kind of like Bruce Irvin). Anybody that watched the combine knew Cliff Avril was the real deal.

Tony Hills was not a top 50 player. Top 100 maybe. If anybody watched Nicks at Nebraska and at the Senior Bowl that year, they would have seen the road grader nicknamed IHOP....because he pancaked so many guys.

WR is one of the easiest positions to make look good, especially if you have a good QB like Ben. O line if neglected will make your QB look bad because he doesnt have the time, or a clean pocket to throw. Passing on good linemen until the later rounds has killed this unit until now.

teegre
06-10-2012, 06:53 PM
WR is one of the easiest positions to make look good, especially if you have a good QB like Ben. O line if neglected will make your QB look bad because he doesnt have the time, or a clean pocket to throw. Passing on good linemen until the later rounds has killed this unit until now.


I couldn't agree more: everything in football (EVERYTHING) revolves around the lines.  I am never upset with an early O-line or D-line pick.  

Before Pouncey was drafted, I wanted a center: Mike Pollack (in 2008, in R2) and then I reeeally wanted Alex Mack (in 2009, in R1...darn the Browns).  I was obviously ecstatic about Pouncey.  And these past two drafts have been equally as thrilling (I love DD, and see promise in both Gilbert & Adams).  

Anyway, back to 2008...  I was originally high on Brandon Albert (as was most Steelers fans)...and then word got out (via Bruce Arians) that Pittsburgh was interested in Albert, and voila! he skyrockets up the draft boards.  Ergo, a RB became the choice-du-jour for the Steelers.  I still wanted a center; so, I was thinking Rice & Pollack (but couldn't really complain about Spinny & Sweed...even though Jackson & Rice would have provided the most bang for one's buck).  

Carl Nicks is one of those players about whom EVERY team should be embarrassed (for not drafting).  How did he last that long!?!  

BUT...  If he had indeed been drafted by Pittsburgh, there would be no discussion about The Colon...or maybe DD wouldn't have even been drafted...nor Adams...because, (a major portion) of the need would already have been filled (by Nicks).  Regardless of Nicks or not, I really, really like these current players (which brings us full circle, back to the current O-line).  

TheVet
06-10-2012, 07:49 PM
I remember feeling elated that we had been able to draft Mendy and Sweed because they had "fallen" to us in the first two rounds,

yet another reminder that it takes a couple of years before you can truly evaluate a draft class.

I remember being OK with the idea of Sweed ("a big target for Ben"), but scratching my head about Mendenhall - a running back in the first round, when the OL can't open a hole? Even if Mendy was "best available athlete" (which doesn't seem very plausible), a running back was fairly low on the needs list - you don't install new wall-to-wall carpet when the mildew is everywhere due to the cracked foundation.

I remember being disappointed that we weren't drafting offensive linemen and cornerbacks. It was a "what the f***?" draft.

Hawaii 5-0
06-10-2012, 08:16 PM
I remember no being upset with the 2008, but also not loving it. 

In hindsight:  

R1:  DeSean Jackson  
R2:  Ray Rice  
R3:  Cliff Avril (or Jermichael Finley) 
R4:  Carl Nicks  

In hindsight:  

R1:  DeSean Jackson WR
R2:  Ray Rice   RB
R3:  Cliff Avril OLB or Jermichael Finley TE
R4:  Josh Sitton OG
R5: Carl Nicks OG
R6A: Pierre Garcon WR
R6B: Matt Flynn QB

teegre
06-10-2012, 10:39 PM
In hindsight:  

R1:  DeSean Jackson WR
R2:  Ray Rice   RB
R3:  Cliff Avril OLB or Jermichael Finley TE
R4:  Josh Sitton OG
R5: Carl Nicks OG
R6A: Pierre Garcon WR
R6B: Matt Flynn QB

Very, very nice.

Although, the obvious & ultimate draft would have been to trade ALL of Pittsburgh's draft picks, in order to move up a few spots, for JOE FLACCO.

Haven't you heard!?! He's the best QB in football. :rofl:

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-11-2012, 12:11 AM
Do any of you really think Ray Rice would have been successful on the Steelers offense, behind that o line, with No fullback?

teegre
06-11-2012, 12:18 AM
Do any of you really think Ray Rice would have been successful on the Steelers offense, behind that o line, with No fullback?

As effective as Spinny...

Furthermore, Rice running behind Carl Nicks...far more effective.

Bottom line: you are correct. Every great RB had a good O-line in front of him. Emmitt followed Larry Allen. Shaun Alexander followed Steve Hutchinson. LaDainian followed Mike Goff. et cetera...

That said: If all things were even, I'd still take Rice over Spinny; Rice reminds me of a poor-man's Marshall Faulk...whereas, Spinny reminds me eerily of Amos Zereoue.

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-11-2012, 09:27 AM
As effective as Spinny...

Furthermore, Rice running behind Carl Nicks...far more effective.

Bottom line: you are correct. Every great RB had a good O-line in front of him. Emmitt followed Larry Allen. Shaun Alexander followed Steve Hutchinson. LaDainian followed Mike Goff. et cetera...

That said: If all things were even, I'd still take Rice over Spinny; Rice reminds me of a poor-man's Marshall Faulk...whereas, Spinny reminds me eerily of Amos Zereoue.

I will respectfully disagree. I think if Mendenhall had the kind of O line, FB and committment to the run game that Rice has had, then he would have put up better numbers.

Ray Rice has rushed for 614 yards more than Mendenhall in the past 3 seasons. That is an average of 12.7 yards per game. I think Mendenhall would have got 13 more yards per game if he had a different offense and FB LeRon McLain or Vontae Leach blocking for him. Even with our mediocre O line.

teegre
06-11-2012, 09:49 AM
I will respectfully disagree. I think if Mendenhall had the kind of O line, FB and committment to the run game that Rice has had, then he would have put up better numbers.

Ray Rice has rushed for 614 yards more than Mendenhall in the past 3 seasons. That is an average of 12.7 yards per game. I think Mendenhall would have got 13 more yards per game if he had a different offense and FB LeRon McLain or Vontae Leach blocking for him. Even with our mediocre O line.

Hmmm...good (statistical) points. Hard to argue that Spinny couldn't have gotten 13 more yards per game w/ a better O-line.

That said, Rice is also a threat as a receiver out of the backfield.

And, Spinny's biggest hurdle has not been his O-line (that is indeed the second biggest factor); his biggest problem is dancing, spinning, & not exploding through the holes (when they are there). Redman hits the hole hard...Spinny prances around. If he would just hit the hole with vigor, he'd have 1800 yards (because, once in the second level, he flourishes).

tony hipchest
06-11-2012, 05:33 PM
mendenhall was drafted with the assumption he would be a great threat receiving the ball out of the backfield, but unfortunately bruce didnt believe in throwing to the backs. didnt mendenhall have that one amazing catch running up the sideline about 20 yds downfield a few years back (cant remember if it went for a score or huge yardage.)?

teegre
06-11-2012, 05:51 PM
mendenhall was drafted with the assumption he would be a great threat receiving the ball out of the backfield, but unfortunately bruce didnt believe in throwing to the backs. didnt mendenhall have that one amazing catch running up the sideline about 20 yds downfield a few years back (cant remember if it went for a score or huge yardage.)?

LOL That "one" catch.

Point taken (Bruce Arians could be partially responsible for Spinny's less than stellar career...thus far). Still...when he dances in front of holes (& Redman bursts through those same holes), it makes me question the kid: does he dance because he's scared? doesn't see the hole? doesn't understand when to go forward?

MasterOfPuppets
06-11-2012, 06:18 PM
LOL That "one" catch.

Point taken (Bruce Arians could be partially responsible for Spinny's less than stellar career...thus far). Still...when he dances in front of holes (& Redman bursts through those same holes), it makes me question the kid: does he dance because he's scared? doesn't see the hole? doesn't understand when to go forward?
watch the video...you'll hear the coach tell mendy..
"if you got money in the C gap , take it, if not, bounce it ,get out of the C and D gap." ...
he doesn't tell him to put his head down and make his own hole..

BxYBT3kIEIg&feature=related

pete74
06-11-2012, 06:31 PM
Mendenhall and rice sent even close. Rice is a better rb and much better receiving threat. Its easy to blame our line but I'm sick of hearing how Ben would be the best QB and mendenhall would be the best rb if only they had a better line.

wera176
06-11-2012, 06:45 PM
Mendy is a good, solid RB who had his career overshadowed by a horrid OC, not so much the OL. When you hear a running back state at the end of a game that "we didn't even run the running plays we practiced" that tells you the OC is the problem.

Now that we have an improved OL (at least on paper) and an OC that historically has a decent running game and a true commitment to it, Redman will have a good season and all we'll hear here is all all these anti-mendy posters saying we told you so....

And it spite of it all, Mendy put up some decent numbers for us...

MasterOfPuppets
06-11-2012, 06:53 PM
Mendenhall and rice sent even close. Rice is a better rb and much better receiving threat. Its easy to blame our line but I'm sick of hearing how Ben would be the best QB and mendenhall would be the best rb if only they had a better line.
i've seen on a few occasions, the great tom brady and peyton manning fold like cheap tents when they are under the same kind of pressure ben deals with on a regular basis. to say that the blocking isn't a huge determing factor on the performances of passers or runners is just ludicrous.to say how much better they would be is just speculation , but i'd certainly expect to see improvement.

teegre
06-11-2012, 07:33 PM
watch the video...you'll hear the coach tell mendy..
"if you got money in the C gap , take it, if not, bounce it ,get out of the C and D gap." ...
he doesn't tell him to put his head down and make his own hole..

BxYBT3kIEIg&feature=related

Of course: most RBs have options.

The problem is that:
a) Spinny often chooses the wrong gap
OR
b) most often, he dances around going "C gap... no, D gap... no, C gap... no, bounce it outside... no, D gap..."

Redman chooses a gap, usually the correct one, and BURSTS through said gap.

teegre
06-11-2012, 07:59 PM
i've seen on a few occasions, the great tom brady and peyton manning fold like cheap tents when they are under the same kind of pressure ben deals with on a regular basis. to say that the blocking isn't a huge determing factor on the performances of passers or runners is just ludicrous.to say how much better they would be is just speculation , but i'd certainly expect to see improvement.

Absolutely. The O-line is the KEY to everything. Everyone agrees on that. No matter who the RB is this upcoming season, he WILL flourish behind a great O-line.

To clarify what we (you, me, a few others) have been discussing is Spinny versus Redman.

Same O-line, but Redman bursts through the holes (his average would be far better, if he weren't used mostly on 3rd & 1)...while Spinny dances.

Steelersfan87
06-11-2012, 08:19 PM
Compare Willie Parker with the o-line of the mid-00s to his last couple seasons as an example of what kind of impact an offensive line will have on a shifty back whose main element is speed and elusiveness.

teegre
06-11-2012, 09:25 PM
Compare Willie Parker with the o-line of the mid-00s to his last couple seasons as an example of what kind of impact an offensive line will have on a shifty back whose main element is speed and elusiveness.

I see your point...BUT, one could also say that Willie had finally hit the wall (lost his speed, due to father time).

The best comparison is still Spinny vs. Redman. Same O-line; different results (spinning vs. bursting).

Please, don't get me wrong: beyond the LOS, Spinny is the far better back. But, alas, getting past the LOS has been Spinny's problem. Ergo, I'll take a RB who bursts through the LOS, but will get caught...over a RB who "could" be dynamic, but spins & hesitates at the LOS.

Steelersfan87
06-11-2012, 10:14 PM
The spinning worked pretty damn well in 2009, didn't it? Mendenhall should be the better of the two backs under this new line if he can bounce back from his injury.

Fire Arians
06-11-2012, 10:22 PM
I see your point...BUT, one could also say that Willie had finally hit the wall (lost his speed, due to father time).

The best comparison is still Spinny vs. Redman. Same O-line; different results (spinning vs. bursting).

Please, don't get me wrong: beyond the LOS, Spinny is the far better back. But, alas, getting past the LOS has been Spinny's problem. Ergo, I'll take a RB who bursts through the LOS, but will get caught...over a RB who "could" be dynamic, but spins & hesitates at the LOS.

with last year's o-line and scheme I'd agree with you. But this year's? And plans to get RB more involved in the passing game? give me mendenhall. This year's o-line even with just adding decastro has given us ability to open holes, and mendy in space is a dangerous thing when he's receiving out of the flat.

i'm a redman fan as well, but I think with the o-line upgrades and haley's offense, mendenhall hands down fits the role better.

don't pencil redman as the starter just yet, he still has to win the job first. who knows, batch might surprise.

ricardisimo
06-11-2012, 11:24 PM
with last year's o-line and scheme I'd agree with you. But this year's? And plans to get RB more involved in the passing game? give me mendenhall. This year's o-line even with just adding decastro has given us ability to open holes, and mendy in space is a dangerous thing when he's receiving out of the flat.

i'm a redman fan as well, but I think with the o-line upgrades and haley's offense, mendenhall hands down fits the role better.

don't pencil redman as the starter just yet, he still has to win the job first. who knows, batch might surprise.
Not to mention what looks like somewhat of a commitment to the fullback position and play action... give me Mendenhall every day of the week.

Of course, all of this assumes that Mendenhall recuperates fully. He might never be the same. He might come back stronger than ever. Most likely it'll be somewhere in between.

Hawaii 5-0
06-12-2012, 12:56 AM
Not to mention what looks like somewhat of a commitment to the fullback position and play action... give me Mendenhall every day of the week.

Of course, all of this assumes that Mendenhall recuperates fully. He might never be the same. He might come back stronger than ever. Most likely it'll be somewhere in between.


I just hope Mendy doesn't rush his recovery and try to come back too early.

teegre
06-12-2012, 02:52 AM
The spinning worked pretty damn well in 2009, didn't it? Mendenhall should be the better of the two backs under this new line if he can bounce back from his injury.

True...and his 2010 was even better.

Still, what happened in 2011? Spinny couldn't find holes that Redman could. [And, imagine what 2009 & 2010 could have been, if Spinny hadn't have been so hesitant...]

teegre
06-12-2012, 03:03 AM
with last year's o-line and scheme I'd agree with you. But this year's? And plans to get RB more involved in the passing game? give me mendenhall. This year's o-line even with just adding decastro has given us ability to open holes, and mendy in space is a dangerous thing when he's receiving out of the flat.

i'm a redman fan as well, but I think with the o-line upgrades and haley's offense, mendenhall hands down fits the role better.

don't pencil redman as the starter just yet, he still has to win the job first. who knows, batch might surprise.

Ah...excellent point.

With holes so huge, even Spinny couldn't miss them. Very, very good point. "C gap... no, D gap... oh, that HUGE hole right here... zoooom!!!"

Again, once past the LOS, Spinny is the far better back; his open-field running is excellent (Redman is strictly north-south...which isn't "all bad", but isn't dynamic). And, again, the problem has been getting Spinny PAST the LOS. But, with DD (& Adams...& The Colon) opening huge holes, getting "past the LOS" shouldn't be a problem for ANY back. Very, very true.

...and this brings us full-circle (back to DD, Adams, & The Colon being a great O-line).

BATCH: The kid looked great last pre-season, didn't he. I, too, have high hopes for him...although, I think Redman wins the job...and Batch fights with Rsiney for the 3rd down back role (akin to Brown & Sanders, in their rookie season).

Steelersfan87
06-12-2012, 03:18 AM
Batch actually didn't make it to preseason last year...we never saw him, just read glowing reports of him. I don't think he's feature back potential though. I honestly don't see any competition for Redman as the workhorse until Mendenhall gets back.

teegre
06-12-2012, 09:04 AM
Batch actually didn't make it to preseason last year...we never saw him, just read glowing reports of him. I don't think he's feature back potential though. I honestly don't see any competition for Redman as the workhorse until Mendenhall gets back.

Batch is probably too small to be anything but a change-of-pace back (Mewelde Moore's role). But, that's an important portion of Todd Haley's offense (see: McCluster).

The report that sparked my interest in Batch was the goalline drills, where Batch scored on EVERY play. The vets (Farrior made some comment) were very impressed.

I'm just excited about having an "actual" O-line. With the holes that are going to be created & the push that they'll make, EVERY single RB should be just as effective (specifically on the goalline).

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-12-2012, 09:15 AM
True...and his 2010 was even better.

Still, what happened in 2011? Spinny couldn't find holes that Redman could. [And, imagine what 2009 & 2010 could have been, if Spinny hadn't have been so hesitant...]

The notion of "being hesitant" is some of the most amusing stuff I read on these types of forums. Its mostly from posters that arent sure what the difference is between a zone block system and a man blocking system.

Mendenhall isnt a straight ahead runner like the Bettis, Bam Morris, Franco Harris type guys. He is best running a stretch play and reading the gaps on a zone block type offense. Its why many likened his style to Eggerin James coming out of college.

He is reading the linemen and looking for holes(rather creases) to open up. That wasnt the case with our line in many games. He would be better running behind a lead blocker (like LeRon McLain or Vontae Leach) in a power man scheme, or in a zone block system where he can read and make cutbacks. He wasnt given much of either here in the past.

Redman isnt fast enough to get to the outside or run a stretch play, so his style of just putting a head down if there is nothing there and falling forward for yardage is a good fit for a lousy line. I think in this system he will do fine running between the tackles with DeCastro, Colon and Pouncey onthe inside.

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-12-2012, 09:17 AM
Batch is probably too small to be anything but a change-of-pace back (Mewelde Moore's role). But, that's an important portion of Todd Haley's offense (see: McCluster).

The report that sparked my interest in Batch was the goalline drills, where Batch scored on EVERY play. The vets (Farrior made some comment) were very impressed.

I'm just excited about having an "actual" O-line. With the holes that are going to be created & the push that they'll make, EVERY single RB should be just as effective (specifically on the goalline).

Watch some film on Batch at Texas Tech. He runs with great forward lean and finishes his runs going forward. Kind of a faster version of Tashard Choice, with better receiving ability, IMO.

teegre
06-12-2012, 10:06 AM
The notion of "being hesitant" is some of the most amusing stuff I read on these types of forums. Its mostly from posters that arent sure what the difference is between a zone block system and a man blocking system.

Mendenhall isnt a straight ahead runner like the Bettis, Bam Morris, Franco Harris type guys. He is best running a stretch play and reading the gaps on a zone block type offense. Its why many likened his style to Eggerin James coming out of college.

He is reading the linemen and looking for holes(rather creases) to open up. That wasnt the case with our line in many games. He would be better running behind a lead blocker (like LeRon McLain or Vontae Leach) in a power man scheme, or in a zone block system where he can read and make cutbacks. He wasnt given much of either here in the past.

Redman isnt fast enough to get to the outside or run a stretch play, so his style of just putting a head down if there is nothing there and falling forward for yardage is a good fit for a lousy line. I think in this system he will do fine running between the tackles with DeCastro, Colon and Pouncey onthe inside.

So, are you suggesting that had Spinny wound up in Denver, he'd be much better? Because, what you're saying is that he doesn't match Pittsburgh's blocking scheme. Interesting indeed. Point taken...and, if you're correct, he shouldn't be a Steeler (he should sign elsewhere, where his style is more if a match)...yes?

I still say that I've watched him spin 95 times (no hyperbole: 95 spin moves) before trying to go upfield. If he reduced those spin moves to...let's say 63...he'd be far, far more effective.

Lastly, with the holes that my boy DD is going to open up, Spinny can make 156 spins moves & STILL be fine. [I haven't been this excited about the O-line since Marvel, Faneca, Harting...]

teegre
06-12-2012, 10:13 AM
Watch some film on Batch at Texas Tech. He runs with great forward lean and finishes his runs going forward. Kind of a faster version of Tashard Choice, with better receiving ability, IMO.

Agreed: great running ability...runs hard forward; explodes through gaps...which is why he dominated in the goalline drill.

Q: Do YOU think he can be an every down back? I see him as a little too small, but then again, he's as big as LaDainian was at this stage in his career (although, he's no LT).

Regardless, pass-catching is his biggest asset. I immediately thought "Mewelde, part II"...and I've loved Mewelde.

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-12-2012, 10:24 AM
So, are you suggesting that had Spinny wound up in Denver, he'd be much better? Because, what you're saying is that he doesn't match Pittsburgh's blocking scheme. Interesting indeed. Point taken...and, if you're correct, he shouldn't be a Steeler (he should sign elsewhere, where his style is more if a match)...yes?

I still say that I've watched him spin 95 times (no hyperbole: 95 spin moves) before trying to go upfield. If he reduced those spin moves to...let's say 63...he'd be far, far more effective.

Lastly, with the holes that my boy DD is going to open up, Spinny can make 156 spins moves & STILL be fine. [I haven't been this excited about the O-line since Marvel, Faneca, Harting...]

He was drafted and put in a system where the lead blocker (Carey Davis), was smaller than him. His vision and cutback ability are strengths of his game and would be better in Houston, Denver, or anywhere that runs more zone than Pittsburgh.

We have all seen Mendenhall spin in an attempt to get away from tacklers, not before he tries to go upfield. If all the guy did was spin before trying to go upfield as you say, then there is no way he would have over 3,000 yards in the past 3 seasons in that crappy offense that was here.

This exaggeration of Mendenhall spinning in the backfield as soon as he gets a handoff is just like "Willie Colon false starts 5 times a game" or " Arians throws bubble screens on 3rd down all the time". (only 1 was thrown on 3rd down last year.)

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-12-2012, 10:33 AM
Agreed: great running ability...runs hard forward; explodes through gaps...which is why he dominated in the goalline drill.

Q: Do YOU think he can be an every down back? I see him as a little too small, but then again, he's as big as LaDainian was at this stage in his career (although, he's no LT).

Regardless, pass-catching is his biggest asset. I immediately thought "Mewelde, part II"...and I've loved Mewelde.

I think the notion of an every down back in the NFL is something of the past. Can Batch be part of a rotation like Ahmad Bradshaw is?......Yes I think so.

I think he is quicker and faster than Moore. Batch ran a 4.5 in the 40, had a 39" vertical leap, 24 reps bench press and a 7.03 in the 3 cone drill. Playing in that offense in college he can catch.

I think he is much better than Moore physically, but going to be tough to make the 53 for him with all the competition.

teegre
06-12-2012, 10:38 AM
We have all seen Mendenhall spin in an attempt to get away from tacklers, not before he tries to go upfield. If all the guy did was spin before trying to go upfield as you say, then there is no way he would have over 3,000 yards in the past 3 seasons in that crappy offense that was here.

This exaggeration of Mendenhall spinning in the backfield as soon as he gets a handoff is just like "Willie Colon false starts 5 times a game" or " Arians throws bubble screens on 3rd down all the time". (only 1 was thrown on 3rd down last year.)

The Colon only has FOUR false starts per game, and BA called bubble screens on every other 3rd down.

Joking aside, there is/are a basis for these exaggerations: Spinny has indeed spun unnecessarily and/or behind the LOS; The Colon's biggest weakness is the false start; and, BA called far too many bubble screens.

teegre
06-12-2012, 10:44 AM
I think the notion of an every down back in the NFL is something of the past. Can Batch be part of a rotation like Ahmad Bradshaw is?......Yes I think so.

So, we are in agreement.

Call it what you want (I called him a "change-of-pace back"; you call him a "part of a rotation") we are describing the same thing: a RB who will get every third series, and the majority of the 3rd downs.

Bradshaw... McCluster... Very similar players & how they are used.

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-12-2012, 12:10 PM
The Colon only has FOUR false starts per game, and BA called bubble screens on every other 3rd down.

Joking aside, there is/are a basis for these exaggerations: Spinny has indeed spun unnecessarily and/or behind the LOS; The Colon's biggest weakness is the false start; and, BA called far too many bubble screens.

Mendenhall has spun outside and gotten chunks of yardage, he has also spun inside when there was no hole and gotten nothing. Its what he does and I think blown way out of proportion.

Colon lacks ideal size for an OT and at times anticipates the count (jumping offside) to try and deal with speed rushers. Again, blown way out of proportion, as I think he accounted for approx the same penalty yardage as Hines Ward's holding and block in the back calls a few seasons ago. Colon was villified, while Ward praised for being a tough WR.

I didnt like Arians offense and at times the bubble screen produced, but yes he went to the well too often IMO.


So, we are in agreement.

Call it what you want (I called him a "change-of-pace back"; you call him a "part of a rotation") we are describing the same thing: a RB who will get every third series, and the majority of the 3rd downs.

Bradshaw... McCluster... Very similar players & how they are used.

I think we are similar with Batch. I dont think he has the explosiveness of McCluster, but I think is a stronger runner than him. Rainey can go the distance, Batch cant, so its going to be a numbers game as to who makes the 53 or if Rainey is considered a WR.

I think Redman, Mendenhall, Dwyer, Rainey will make it. Batch goes to the PS. WR's will be Brown, Sanders, Wallace, Cotchery, Clemons. If they make it 6WR with Rainey, then Batch has a chance.

Fire Arians
06-12-2012, 12:10 PM
Agreed: great running ability...runs hard forward; explodes through gaps...which is why he dominated in the goalline drill.

Q: Do YOU think he can be an every down back? I see him as a little too small, but then again, he's as big as LaDainian was at this stage in his career (although, he's no LT).

Regardless, pass-catching is his biggest asset. I immediately thought "Mewelde, part II"...and I've loved Mewelde.

it's possible, batch is not a small running back. 5'10 and 210 lbs, he's about the same dimensions as ray rice, and nobody is saying RR is too small.

teegre
06-12-2012, 12:37 PM
it's possible, batch is not a small running back. 5'10 and 210 lbs, he's about the same dimensions as ray rice, and nobody is saying RR is too small.

...and LT ...and MJD ... and Barry ...

Steelersfan87
06-12-2012, 12:43 PM
Ray Rice, Jones-Drew, and Sanders were all built like tanks.

teegre
06-12-2012, 12:49 PM
El-Gonzo:

The Colon. We agree. I feel (& have posted) that his false starts are due to a lack of lateral movement. Ergo, he "has" to false start (in order to get in front of DEs/OLBs). But, MOST of the time he is able to get in front of DEs/OLBs...and when he does, he does not give up sacks. But, no one gives him any credit for that. [He should thrive at OG.]

Spinny. I just get so frustrated with him, as I did with Zereoue. My brother once said about Amos: "He's one juke too many from being really good." And I currently feel similarly about Spinny: "He is one spin-move too many away from being really good." [His career reminds me of Larry Johnson's: pretty good for four years, then ge figures it out, and voila! 1800 yards.]

WRs & RBs. I was thinking something along the same lines: Rainey would be kept on, but his official title wouldn't matter: he'd be a WR/RB (sometimes in the slot, sometimes coming out of the backfield, sometimes running the ball). Ergo, he'd be BOTH the 6th WR and the 6th RB.

TheVet
06-12-2012, 01:57 PM
The notion of "being hesitant" is some of the most amusing stuff I read on these types of forums. Its mostly from posters that arent sure what the difference is between a zone block system and a man blocking system.

Mendenhall isnt a straight ahead runner like the Bettis, Bam Morris, Franco Harris type guys. He is best running a stretch play and reading the gaps on a zone block type offense. Its why many likened his style to Eggerin James coming out of college.

He is reading the linemen and looking for holes(rather creases) to open up. That wasnt the case with our line in many games. He would be better running behind a lead blocker (like LeRon McLain or Vontae Leach) in a power man scheme, or in a zone block system where he can read and make cutbacks. He wasnt given much of either here in the past.

Redman isnt fast enough to get to the outside or run a stretch play, so his style of just putting a head down if there is nothing there and falling forward for yardage is a good fit for a lousy line. I think in this system he will do fine running between the tackles with DeCastro, Colon and Pouncey onthe inside.

You missed the point. Yes, the back needs to read the linemen and look for holes to open up. But when there's nothing there, he needs to see that, anticipate that, make a decision and take what he can get, and it has to happen quickly. Mendenhall is slow to make that decision, and so he takes losses unnecessarily, and gives up small gains. He's not decisive.

He also leaves yards on the table at the tail end of his successful runs, going down easily, or going out of bounds prematurely to avoid hits, when he could turn upfield and pick up another five tough yards. Occasionally the coaches will kick his butt, and he improves in this area. He has the physical tools, but his preference is to slack back to his comfort zone. He's just not a tough player.

Redman is a tough player. He plays with effort, heart and desire. That's why he consistently outperforms Mendenhall. Give me the tough guy who outperforms vs. the indecisive pretty boy who won't do the gritty work.