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tony hipchest
07-31-2012, 09:17 AM
another great article by jim wexell that should be music to the ears of many a steelerfans (of course it is certain to draw the ire of those who still insist on apologizing for uncle arians)-

http://pit.scout.com/2/1206898.html

LATROBE – The Pittsburgh Steelers have run the ball 44 percent of the time or less only four times in franchise history:
* After they did it in 1991, they fired Chuck Noll.

* After they did it in 2003, they changed offensive coordinators.

* After they did it in 2009, they publically demanded an improved running game.

* And after the same coordinator did it again last year, he was fired.

New coordinator Todd Haley seems to get it. The run-pass ratio the first two days of full-contact practices was, oh, 65-35.

Regardless of the specific number, a point is being made.

“It’s an attitude,” said running backs coach Kirby Wilson. “Running the football in the National Football League is hard and it takes a determined effort by everybody, all the people up front, the wideouts, tight ends, the backs. It’s a collective mindset that we all have got to be physical and get the job done.”

...

Polamalu is one of several defensive players who’ve questioned the Steelers’ offensive direction over the last few years.

“I wouldn’t say that I had problems with the offense,” Polamalu corrected. “I’ve had problems in the way that our team jelled together as a whole.”

Up until about 2008, Polamalu appreciated the way the Steelers’ offense gave the frenetically paced defense a chance to rest with its controlled pace. But that began to change under coordinator Bruce Arians, as the game as a whole seemed to change.

“Everything is such a trend,” Polamalu said. “This bold passing offense, spreading the field, the trend has caught on with a lot of teams. People don’t think you can have success with ground-and-pound and good defense. But the top two teams in college football last year were just that, and you can’t get any more trendy than the Oregon-style offense in college football. But everybody wants that New England-style offense, that Indianapolis-style offense.

“Everything just has to mesh together. I believe in the tradition that’s been passed down within our culture here as a Steeler and that’s always been play good defense, control the ball – passing or running. I just think that we’ve got to mesh together better than we have in the past.”

Polamalu said the best offense he ever defended was the 2004 New England Patriots.

“They were really balanced,” he said. “They played against the defense’s weakness every week.”

The 2004 Patriots ran the ball 51 percent of the time thanks to the arrival of Corey Dillon and his 1,635 yards. Otherwise, the Patriots haven’t run the ball more than 47 percent of the time in Bill Belichick’s 12 years. And they haven’t won a Super Bowl since that 2004 season.

In 6-foot, 230-pound Isaac Redman, the Steelers have a back who compares favorably to the 6-1, 225-pound Dillon. While Dillon averaged 4.3 yards per carry during his 10-year career, Redman has averaged 4.8 per carry in 37 regular-season and postseason games.

“He’s one of the smartest halfbacks I’ve ever worked with,” said Wilson. “He’s very instinctual and he’s got very good football intelligence and I trust him in all aspects, whether it be first down or third down.”

Third down?

“Absolutely,” Wilson said. “There’s your third down back.”

The Steelers have powerful big backs behind Redman in Jonathan Dwyer and John Clay. And young Baron Batch has pleased both Wilson and coach Mike Tomlin with the way he’s run after missing his rookie season with a knee injury. Chris Rainey’s speed will be utilized in spots. Even Rashard Mendenhall believes he can return by the start of the season.

And the group will be running behind a line that’s bigger than its listed weights, with players such as Willie Colon, Ramon Foster, Max Starks and Trai Essex in their athletic primes.

Of course, there are also the young blue-chippers: Maurkice Pouncey, Marcus Gilbert, David DeCastro and Mike Adams.

“Massive. MASSIVE men,” Wilson said with emphasis. “And they’re experienced. They’re experienced tough guys who like to fight, football-wise. But what I think is impressive about that whole group: They don’t care. They just want to smash people. They’re big, tough guys and they’re loving this new scheme, so to speak. They get a chance to double-team, pull, trap. It’s a beautiful thing to them. So right now they’re leading the charge. They’re doing a good job.”

Will the plan continue through camp? Will the offense make a believer out of Polamalu and his like-minded defensive veterans?

“Yeah, no doubt about it,” Wilson said. “That’s our bread and butter. We’re going to continue to be physical. We’re going to continue to run downhill runs, off-tackle runs, and mix in our screens and draws. But we want to be physical and it all begins with our offensive line, which we in our room are really, really high on. We’re impressed with what we see. We’re impressed with those players and how they have really gravitated to the new attitude toward the run game, and so they’ve got the lead. And we’re following and trying to keep pace.”



i believe fantasy football fans and arians apologists believed in arians magic more than the culture and tradition troy polamalu speaks of. arians biggest flaw was thinking he was bigger that the steelers and that tradition which was a proven formula, and thumbing his nose at his bosses.

i sure wish Sixburgher AKA banned member and former moderator fansince76 would come out of hiding so he could call polamalu a dumbass know nothing hater as well. :coffee:

:jerkit:

TheDude
07-31-2012, 09:23 AM
I think the key is a philosophy that allows the offense and defense to compliment each other. Polomalu had that under cowher early in his career. A high pressure D, that needed breathers throughout the game....it benefits from a ball control, move the chains type offense.

And a lot of those high powered offenses....they (more often than not) sputter in the postseason

ebsteelers
07-31-2012, 09:47 AM
running for seven.


redman, dwyer, batch and rainey... that some exciting stuff right there.


i like clay and mendy but love the top 4.. then again mendy with a new o line could be a treat as well

El-Gonzo Jackson
07-31-2012, 10:07 AM
Polamalu = Arians hater.

El-Gonzo Jackson
07-31-2012, 10:14 AM
Great article, but WOAH! You dropped the Gary bomb there at the end. I like it. :sofunny:

I get along with FS76, but he definately seemed to loathe the "Cowherball" offenses.

Running the football is a physical mindset, a chance where the Offensive line gets to be the hammer instead of the nail in pass protection. I think having the ability to run the football does many things positive for an offense such as:

1.allow the team to get short yardage when needed.
2. allow play action passes to work
3. score in the red zone when there isnt enough field to spread in the passing game.
4. give your offense a physical identity and attitude.
5. control the clock and close out games when leading.

I'm not in favor of running all the time, but could never understand why anybody would want to de-value the run game as much as the Steelers did since 2007.

teegre
07-31-2012, 10:15 AM
The trend and rules in football is: pass, pass, pass.  Ergo, just about ANY team can pass.  And, accordingly, defenses are now built to defend the pass.  

So... if a team commits to the run, defenses have trouble stopping them.  

And, since just about any team can pass, a team that can ALSO run is very, very dangerous.  

It doesn't need to be 65% (I think that that percentage is a training camp statement), but 55% or better would be awesome.  

MACH1
07-31-2012, 10:34 AM
“Running the football in the National Football League is hard and it takes a determined effort

The only determined effort arians gave was running that damn bubble screen 15 times a game.

tony hipchest
07-31-2012, 10:40 AM
I get along with FS76, but he definately seemed to loathe the "Cowherball" offenses.
.spot on.

we like fansince as well, as long as he stays where he belongs and quits shedding his valuable blood sweat and tears monitoring us at steelersfever. for over a year he posted here under the member name Sixburger for nothing more than to still argue with the dozen or so of us he banned and to defend arians' greatness. now how backwards, childish, and immature is that? Im sure his membership would be a little disappointed if they realized how much time he spent on a board he loathes, "talking football" with people he loathes. :noidea:


It doesn't need to be 65% (I think that that percentage is a training camp statement), but 55% or better would be awesome.  

agree 100%

El-Gonzo Jackson
07-31-2012, 11:22 AM
spot on.

we like fansince as well, as long as he stays where he belongs and quits shedding his valuable blood sweat and tears monitoring us at steelersfever. for over a year he posted here under the member name Sixburger for nothing more than to still argue with the dozen or so of us he banned and to defend arians' greatness. now how backwards, childish, and immature is that? Im sure his membership would be a little disappointed if they realized how much time he spent on a board he loathes, "talking football" with people he loathes. :noidea:



That.......I did not know.

I decided to walk away from that site and come back here. I like a lot of the posters over there, but many of them seemed not to be as active as they used to be.

The one constant on that site is that Revs is still trying to flame bait any newbies to the forum and get into an arguement with them so they get banned before they can establish themselves in the forum. I think its some kind of weird power trip to keep any new members from his club or something.

Its unfortunate to see new members join a site to talk football and get berated by the veteran troll, which gives them a bad sense of what the site is all about. Its why I like things over here better, as it seems like a more casual and open forum for discussion, sarcasm and being a fan. :thumbsup:

GoFor7
07-31-2012, 11:25 AM
The trend and rules in football is: pass, pass, pass.  Ergo, just about ANY team can pass.  And, accordingly, defenses are now built to defend the pass.  

So... if a team commits to the run, defenses have trouble stopping them.  

And, since just about any team can pass, a team that can ALSO run is very, very dangerous.  

It doesn't need to be 65% (I think that that percentage is a training camp statement), but 55% or better would be awesome.  

I'm fine with being more physical and putting more commitment to the ground game, but our best playmakers are at QB, WR, and even TE. If anything, it should be 55% in favor of passing, maybe even slightly more.

I understand the argument about some defenses not being able to stop the run as well because of the passing trend the league is going towards (and I have to admit I wouldn't mind seeing a lighter Ray-Ray get run over multiple times), but keep in mind the rules of Goodell era football. It's harder to defend the pass, even if you have a good pass defense. DBs cannot be as physical with receivers as they once were.

The Steelers should no longer worry about run/pass ratio. Don't run it just because you feel you have to cling to some old tradition or keep vocal, cranky old yinzers happy. Just do whatever works best against your opponent and gives you the best chance to win.

teegre
07-31-2012, 12:11 PM
I'm fine with being more physical and putting more commitment to the ground game, but our best playmakers are at QB, WR, and even TE. If anything, it should be 55% in favor of passing, maybe even slightly more.

I understand the argument about some defenses not being able to stop the run as well because of the passing trend the league is going towards (and I have to admit I wouldn't mind seeing a lighter Ray-Ray get run over multiple times), but keep in mind the rules of Goodell era football. It's harder to defend the pass, even if you have a good pass defense. DBs cannot be as physical with receivers as they once were.

The Steelers should no longer worry about run/pass ratio. Don't run it just because you feel you have to cling to some old tradition or keep vocal, cranky old yinzers happy. Just do whatever works best against your opponent and gives you the best chance to win.

Let's discuss this, one point at a time.  

1.  44% running plays...or less.  
This is what you want, yes?  That is the percentage that Arains gave this team.  So, is this "really" what you want?  

2.  Trust me: I know the passing rules completely favor the offense.  Ergo, ANY team can pass.  And, in turn, many teams have abandoned the run (44% or less running plays).  As a result, some defenses don't even practice stopping the run.  THUS, my point is that with teams so focused on the pass, a team that can run is an anomaly... and far more difficult to defend (look at Tebow: teams could NOT stop them).  

Plus, running on a team wears them out both physically & mentally.  

And once a defense is worn out, you own them.  

2-a.  Your last paragraph is spot on: do whatever teams can't defend.  If a team is bad against the pass, then pass.  If a team is bad against the run, run.  My point is that most teams are bad against the run... thus, running the ball more (55%) makes a ton of sense.  

3.  I agree: your talent is in the QB.  The WRs are great.  But, so is the O-line.  And, with this O-line, there will be huge running holes.  I know, I know: keep the ball in BB's hands... I agree.  But, the efficiency is what has been lacking.  Such as...  

No more bubble screens.  Instead, play-action that sets up a deep pass to Wallace.  

No more passing on 3rd & 1.  Instead, smash it.  

No more stopping the clock (at the end of games) with incomplete passes (the second Ravens game is the best example of this).   Instead, RUN out the clock.  

Speaking of running out the clock, having the lead (with a good mixture of pass-run early in the game) means running a LOT at the end (to kill the clock)... which would easily equal 55% run.  

LASTLY, just because I'm a curmudgeon doesn't make me old & cranky. Uh... Hmmm.. (Welcome to the board.)

EbonySteel86
07-31-2012, 12:18 PM
running for seven.


redman, dwyer, batch and rainey... that some exciting stuff right there.


i like clay and mendy but love the top 4.. then again mendy with a new o line could be a treat as well

Mendy in this offence with this o line would be EXTREMELY dangerous!

El-Gonzo Jackson
07-31-2012, 12:49 PM
 

No more stopping the clock (at the end of games) with incomplete passes (the second Ravens game is the best example of this).   Instead, RUN out the clock.  



This is what a lot of fans probably don't recognize. The past 5 years I heard a lot of "the defense lost the game because they could not stop the other team on the final drive".

Fans recognize that the game has shifted to passing and enabling offenses to pass the football, so its not unreasonable to think opponents can score on a final drive of the game.

Having a good run game can choke the life out of a defense and close out games without giving opponents a chance. Thats what I hope to see again.

Fire Arians
07-31-2012, 12:59 PM
This is what a lot of fans probably don't recognize. The past 5 years I heard a lot of "the defense lost the game because they could not stop the other team on the final drive".

Fans recognize that the game has shifted to passing and enabling offenses to pass the football, so its not unreasonable to think opponents can score on a final drive of the game.

Having a good run game can choke the life out of a defense and close out games without giving opponents a chance. Thats what I hope to see again.

yep. my favorite drive of all time, i forget what year it was, but it was a 13 minute drive we had in the 4th quarter against cleveland. we didn't even score but took up the entire quarter smashing their defense with the running game, and they couldn't do anything about it except watch the clock run to zero. that was a thing of beauty

teegre
07-31-2012, 01:07 PM
yep. my favorite drive of all time, i forget what year it was, but it was a 13 minute drive we had in the 4th quarter against cleveland. we didn't even score but took up the entire quarter smashing their defense with the running game, and they couldn't do anything about it except watch the clock run to zero. that was a thing of beauty

In all seriousness, I was just typing up a post about that exact game.  

It was late in the season.  It secured the division.  Bam Morris ran for a first down.  And then, the QB knelt down three times, at the six yard-line.  No FG.  No TD attempt.  Just running out the clock.  

I have often referred to that as my favorite end to a game of all time... and people call me crazy for it... but it was such a "demoralizing" loss (for CLEV), because they couldn't do ANYTHING to stop it. Such a statement.

GoFor7
07-31-2012, 01:58 PM
Let's discuss this, one point at a time.  

1.  44% running plays...or less.  
This is what you want, yes?  That is the percentage that Arains gave this team.  So, is this "really" what you want?  

2.  Trust me: I know the passing rules completely favor the offense.  Ergo, ANY team can pass.  And, in turn, many teams have abandoned the run (44% or less running plays).  As a result, some defenses don't even practice stopping the run.  THUS, my point is that with teams so focused on the pass, a team that can run is an anomaly... and far more difficult to defend (look at Tebow: teams could NOT stop them).  

Plus, running on a team wears them out both physically & mentally.  

And once a defense is worn out, you own them.  

2-a.  Your last paragraph is spot on: do whatever teams can't defend.  If a team is bad against the pass, then pass.  If a team is bad against the run, run.  My point is that most teams are bad against the run... thus, running the ball more (55%) makes a ton of sense.  

3.  I agree: your talent is in the QB.  The WRs are great.  But, so is the O-line.  And, with this O-line, there will be huge running holes.  I know, I know: keep the ball in BB's hands... I agree.  But, the efficiency is what has been lacking.  Such as...  

No more bubble screens.  Instead, play-action that sets up a deep pass to Wallace.  

No more passing on 3rd & 1.  Instead, smash it.  

No more stopping the clock (at the end of games) with incomplete passes (the second Ravens game is the best example of this).   Instead, RUN out the clock.  

Speaking of running out the clock, having the lead (with a good mixture of pass-run early in the game) means running a LOT at the end (to kill the clock)... which would easily equal 55% run.  

LASTLY, just because I'm a curmudgeon doesn't make me old & cranky. Uh... Hmmm.. (Welcome to the board.)

My issue with Arians wasn't the percentage of pass vs. run plays called, my issues were poor redzone offense, not using TEs enough, not using RBs in the passing game more, not adjusting to weaknesses of opposing defenses, and calling too many plays that took too long to develop which resulted in Ben getting sacked more.

Also, I don't think you can solely rely on running the ball to ice the game. Important? Yes. And if it works then don't stop. But if it doesn't work, don't play scared and say "well, it's on the defense now!" Despite what happened in the Ravens game last year, you can play the possession game through the air with safer, short passes (another senario in which I'd like to see TEs more). They did it to ice the game against Arizona and the first game against Cincy. With Baltimore, I think they got a little too greedy. Dinking an dunking at will can be just as demoralizing as running it down their throats (like what the Patriots did to the Steelers in 2010 :banging:), and it makes the defense have to account for more than just run run run.

tanda10506
07-31-2012, 03:03 PM
I like how Polamalu said the best offense he defended against was the 2004 Pats and how they "played on all the defense's weaknesses". Huh....I wonder why

teegre
07-31-2012, 03:15 PM
My issue with Arians wasn't the percentage of pass vs. run plays called, my issues were poor redzone offense, not using TEs enough, not using RBs in the passing game more, not adjusting to weaknesses of opposing defenses, and calling too many plays that took too long to develop which resulted in Ben getting sacked more.

Also, I don't think you can solely rely on running the ball to ice the game. Important? Yes. And if it works then don't stop. But if it doesn't work, don't play scared and say "well, it's on the defense now!" Despite what happened in the Ravens game last year, you can play the possession game through the air with safer, short passes (another senario in which I'd like to see TEs more). They did it to ice the game against Arizona and the first game against Cincy. With Baltimore, I think they got a little too greedy. Dinking an dunking at will can be just as demoralizing as running it down their throats (like what the Patriots did to the Steelers in 2010 :banging:), and it makes the defense have to account for more than just run run run.

I agree with all of your problems with Arians' offense. Might I add: running the ball on first & goal from the 2 yard-line should be an option (as opposed to three pass attempts).

Agreed: running out the clock is only a portion of winning a ballgame. And, Yes, the short pass can be just as effective as a run up the middle...but, no matter how effective (opening day 2002: the Taperiots passed 42 straight times or something against the Steelers) a passing attack is, all it takes is one drop...and the clock stops. Whereas, even a short run keeps the clock going.

Look at the end of the Tebow debacle. [Forget about the horrible game plan by the defense.] Focus on the final drive by Pittsburgh. They are in FG range...and instead of running the ball, up the middle, to eat clock & set up the winning FG, they pass, pass, pass... sack, sack, sack.

As Woody Hayes once said, "When you pass, three things can happen: two of them bad."

Mind you, I agree: getting passes to the RBs & TEs is needed...especially in the red-zone, where the field is shortened, & where it "eliminates" Wallace's speed (to a degree). We agree: passes to the TEs and RBs would help...as should more runs (especially inside of the five yard-line).


We agree: Rainey and Miller should have outstanding years via short passes. I am not arguing that. I am also not saying run for run's sake. What I am advocating is stuffing the ball down an opponents throat when it needs to be done:
-3rd & short
-to eat up the clock
-when one is already in FG range
-inside the 5 yard-line

Those four examples alone should account for a swing from 44% run to 55% run.

Atlanta Dan
07-31-2012, 03:32 PM
another great article by jim wexell that should be music to the ears of many a steelerfans (of course it is certain to draw the ire of those who still insist on apologizing for uncle arians)-

http://pit.scout.com/2/1206898.html

Ed.B. of the P-G also stated in his chat today that the Steelers actually are practicing running plays in training camp this year :jawdrop:

How is the new offense looking?

Ed Bouchette: Well, it's only practice, but I think one important part that I've noticed is they don't seem to be making many mistakes or hesitancy when running plays. That tells you they have them down. I also like the fact they actually practice the run more than I've seen in past camps. It reminds me right now of the 2004 camp when they re-established the run after abandoning it in 2003.

https://plus.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/pro-sports/steelers/117423-ed-bouchettes-steelers-chat-transcript-73112?q=/index.php/pro-sports/steelers/117423-ed-bouchettes-steelers-chat-transcript-73112&


i sure wish Sixburgher AKA banned member and former moderator fansince76 would come out of hiding so he could call polamalu a dumbass know nothing hater as well. :coffee:

"Sixburgher" is Gary a/k/a fansince76? That explains a snarky PM I received in response to my observations here some time ago about the casual comparison of the incumbent President to various evildoers, including a certain deceased German dictator, on this board prior to Memorial Day 2010 and at SU. :chuckle: I wanted to send a reply but "Sixburgher" enjoys sending PMs but apparently does not allow PMs to be sent to him.

But better to look forward rather then look back to the old flame wars that resulted in my prior ban from this board when it was under prior managment on Election Night 2008:drink:

GoFor7
07-31-2012, 03:35 PM
Also, I think Wexell might have jumped the gun a little bit with his article (like he jumped the gun last week reporting Wallace was signed to a new deal). Haley wasn't trying to say "we're going back to yinzer smashmouth football!" He wants to put in a mentally that the offense can control the line of scrimmage run it when they want to.

In fact, Haley had them practicing the no-huddle offense. By Wexell's logic, I guess now the offense will be an up-tempo pass, pass, pass offense. :coffee:

Be careful what you read into. The media needs its stories until the regular season starts.

teegre
07-31-2012, 04:13 PM
He wants to put in a mentally that the offense can control the line of scrimmage run it when they want to.

In fact, Haley had them practicing the no-huddle offense.
.

Control the LOS.  Run when they want to.  And, no huddle (BB calling more of his own plays).  

You have my off-season trifecta wish list.  

Steelersfan87
07-31-2012, 07:11 PM
I don't know who this Sixburgher person is or his reputation (or the other site alluded to), but he evidently agreed with me often and contributed a lot to my "rep". Surely that must be why some people have been less than accepting of me at times. :thumbsup:

Steelersfan87
07-31-2012, 08:41 PM
http://cheekymonkeyart.com/artwork/wcg/HatersGonnaHate-500pxWide.gif

Bayz101
07-31-2012, 08:45 PM
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lvm437bgp71r75coao1_500.gif

MACH1
07-31-2012, 09:02 PM
I don't know who this Sixburgher person is or his reputation (or the other site alluded to), but he evidently agreed with me often and contributed a lot to my "rep". Surely that must be why some people have been less than accepting of me at times. :thumbsup:

No,,,It's not that.

dreegking
07-31-2012, 09:57 PM
Great discussion. I can only say that I have always thought the simple focus of a 50-50 run to pass ratio on any down is always best. When you have an evenly competent team like the Steelers, I believe it's a good aim.

I know I am in the minority but if I was Arians with the type of the personnel he had, I would have thrown more than run with the inclusion of bubble screens. I think he did the right things overall with the type of personnel he had.

I am of course excited about the changes with a better online. I hope it all settles down to a 50-50 attack however.

steelfury02
08-01-2012, 10:19 AM
the bubble screens to Ward? Can't agree with that combo anyways.

The bubble screen to Wallace? Now, I have to admit - that wasn't half bad - his YAC on that play I believe was pretty good

Honestly - its the 3rd and short and goal line plays that lost him his job. 20 to 20 yd line he was good (plus Ben and the rest of the talent more than making up for some odd choices in play calling) Once hit the Red Zone - fuggedaboutit

We have top 5 talent, possibly even top 3 plus we have what none of the other high-octane offenses have - a superb defense - if those are clicking at the same time - very hard beast to beat:tt03: