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SteelerEmpire
09-01-2012, 10:03 AM
Israel. Out of all our allies, this country is probably the most politically hot button issue of them. Anyway, good video:

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ricardisimo
09-02-2012, 02:59 AM
Really?

ricardisimo
09-02-2012, 03:05 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQP5Hlgh9gg&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fresults%3Fsear ch_query%3Dsoldier%2Bassaults%2BB%2527Tselem%2Bwor ker%26oq%3Dsoldier%2Bassaults%2BB%2527Tselem%2Bwor ker%26gs_l%3Dyoutube.3...6478.31164.0.31547.44.37. 1.2.2.0.446.4595.11j24j4-2.37.0...0.0...1ac.fedPyhS8WDg&has_verified=1

ricardisimo
09-02-2012, 03:08 AM
kem1ajIKv1k

MasterOfPuppets
09-02-2012, 11:58 AM
:popcorn: i'm suprised that at the end of the video they didn't give instructions on where to send a check....

Vincent
09-02-2012, 12:03 PM
Israel. Out of all our allies, this country is probably the most politically hot button issue of them. Anyway, good video:

Exceptional video. Thank you for posting.

:popcorn: i'm suprised that at the end of the video they didn't give instructions on where to send a check....

It should be apparent. Even to Gentiles.

MasterOfPuppets
09-02-2012, 12:17 PM
oh its apparent alright

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SteelerEmpire
09-03-2012, 10:12 AM
Oh. The US has not been 'angles' either towards the Jews as it has Jewish blood on it's hands as well. This movie is a true story.

Also, if you study the issue with the USS Liberty, it was in the wrong waters during the 6 Day War with the Arabs while Israel was under attack by 5 different nations. Then after not "properly" (I stress 'properly') identifying itself, it was fired upon.
By the way, the US was an ally in this war.

Voyage of the Damned

This film details a very dark chapter in U.S. (in fact, World) history. As a propaganda tactic, to attempt to dismiss the notion that they were committing genocide, WWII Germany fills a cruise ship with Jewish citizens and sends them off to Cuba, purportedly so that they can be free. Unfortunately, Cuba will not allow the passengers to disembark, nor will the United States and so the ship must turn back, thus becoming the voyage of the damned.

LINK: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075406/reviews

Also:

There are 600 millionaires living in Gaza

There are 600 millionaires living in Gaza, which mainstream media for years have reported is an “humanitarian disaster” blamed on Israel for what was a partial blockade of materials that could possibly be used to build weapons manufacturing plants and rockets aimed at Israeli civilians.

LINK: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/159536#.UES7SRKVBo0

Vincent
09-03-2012, 05:17 PM
We've had this discussion here and in other fora in 1000+ post threads. "palestine" is bull@#$%. islam is satanic. You're either for Israel or you're against her. If you're against her, you'll bake.

Discuss.

MasterOfPuppets
09-03-2012, 06:43 PM
Also, if you study the issue with the USS Liberty, it was in the wrong waters during the 6 Day War with the Arabs while Israel was under attack by 5 different nations. Then after not "properly" (I stress 'properly') identifying itself, it was fired upon.
By the way, the US was an ally in this war.




strange...the captain and crew of the liberty seems to think other wise...i guesssince they were actually there , i'll take their word for it.

Captain William McGonagle writes to President Clinton

FROM THE DESK OF:
CAPTAIN WILLIAM L. McGONAGLE, USN (RET.)
MEMBER, CMOH SOCIETY October 24, 1998
AN OPEN LETTER TO PRESIDENT CLINTON
Re: Jonathan POLLARD
1. Please DO NOT release Jonathan POLLARD, a convicted traitor of the United States, to the Government of Israel, as part of the Middle East peace process, or for any other reason.
2. Please DO NOT release Jonathan POLLARD to the Government of Israel where he could continue to cause irreparable security harm to the United States of America.
3. Please DO NOT release Jonathan POLLARD to the Government of Israel until and unless the Government of Israel acknowledges, in writing and publicly, that the Government of Israel's armed forces (air and naval) deliberately attacked USS LIBERTY (AGTR-5) (A Technical Research Ship) on June 8, 1967.


Israeli aircraft conducted surveillance of the ship within moments of our arrival on station off the coast of the Sinai on the morning of June 8, 1967. The ship was soon identified as USS LIBERTY by Israeli Naval Headquarters, by referring to "JANE'S FIGHTING SHIPS" 1966 OR 1967 issue, which showed a photograph of the ship and listed in detail its characteristics. In fact, an identification "tower" was placed on their Battle Plot with an "A" on the tower to identify the ship as an American ship. The plot was not kept up to date, and was removed when the watch changed at noon that day. The ship was overflown on several occasions before the attack commenced. An Israeli Naval Officer went to the American Embassy Naval Attache' to obtain information that the ship was indeed USS LIBERTY, but the US Naval Attache' did not have our operating schedule, so he could neither confirm or deny that the ship was the USS LIBERTY................
continued

ricardisimo
09-03-2012, 08:09 PM
Oh. The US has not been 'angles' either towards the Jews as it has Jewish blood on it's hands as well. This movie is a true story.

Also, if you study the issue with the USS Liberty, it was in the wrong waters during the 6 Day War with the Arabs while Israel was under attack by 5 different nations. Then after not "properly" (I stress 'properly') identifying itself, it was fired upon.
By the way, the US was an ally in this war.

Firstly, there is very strong evidence that the attack on the Liberty was intentional. I'm still not clear on the why of it, other than to prove to the US that Israelis are even crazier than we are. As far as the US being an ally, yes... and the US was an ally of Israel's during it's numerous espionage attempts during the 80s and 90s. Israel has a curious way of treating its allies, wouldn't you say?

Also:

There are 600 millionaires living in Gaza

Assuming this is even true, your point here is what, exactly? Is it against the law for Gaza to have haves and havenots like the rest of the planet?

ricardisimo
09-03-2012, 08:15 PM
We've had this discussion here and in other fora in 1000+ post threads. "palestine" is bull@#$%. islam is satanic. You're either for Israel or you're against her. If you're against her, you'll bake.

Discuss.
Yes, and we wouldn't want to have redundant conversations (http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/forum.php), would we?

As far as being for Israel or against her, I imagine that your view in this case is just as sophisticated as your view of the US. So, exactly as being pro-US means supporting unquestioningly whatever foreign excursions the president can dream up, no matter the cost in lives or money; just so, being "for Israel" means not questioning her most draconian laws and brutal attacks on civilian populations. Correct?

SteelerEmpire
09-04-2012, 09:15 PM
I see no one mentioned the US turning back Jews (on the "St Louis") in 1939 to be slaughtered in Europe ? You guys crack me up... lol. But just like some Americans won't forget the USS Liberty, some Jews won't forget the St Louis...

ricardisimo
09-05-2012, 04:26 AM
I see no one mentioned the US turning back Jews (on the "St Louis") in 1939 to be slaughtered in Europe ? You guys crack me up... lol. But just like some Americans won't forget the USS Liberty, some Jews won't forget the St Louis...
Nor should they. No hypocrisy there. I think that was absolutely appalling, nothing short of criminal complicity. I fail to see the connection to either the Liberty incident or Israeli spying, but I will point out that many of those same Jews who wouldn't forget the St. Louis, immediately forgot the general kindness and tolerance of Middle Eastern Arabs (at least relative to their experiences in Europe) when it became convenient in '48.

Vincent
09-05-2012, 08:40 AM
...but I will point out that many of those same Jews who wouldn't forget the St. Louis, immediately forgot the general kindness and tolerance of Middle Eastern Arabs (at least relative to their experiences in Europe) when it became convenient in '48.

Ilana Turgeman. Rachel Aputa. Yocheved Mazoz. Sarah Ben-Shim'on. Yona Sabag. Yafa Cohen. Shoshana Cohen. Michal Sitrok. Malka Amrosy. Aviva Saada. Yocheved Diyi. Yaakov Levi. Yaakov Kabla. Rina Cohen. Ilana Ne'eman. Sarah Madar. Tamar Dahan. Sarah Soper. Lili Morad. David Madar. Yehudit Madar. The 21 dead children of Ma'alot regret that they cannot express their gratitude for the general kindness and tolerance shown to them by the PLO felluhs that shot up their school one sunny morning in May of '74. But surely they join in gratitude with the untold thousands like them that have experienced the same general kindness and tolerance them since returning to their homeland.

I hope that you, Ric, live long enough to realize how ridiculous your comment was.

ricardisimo
09-06-2012, 03:28 AM
Ilana Turgeman. Rachel Aputa. Yocheved Mazoz. Sarah Ben-Shim'on. Yona Sabag. Yafa Cohen. Shoshana Cohen. Michal Sitrok. Malka Amrosy. Aviva Saada. Yocheved Diyi. Yaakov Levi. Yaakov Kabla. Rina Cohen. Ilana Ne'eman. Sarah Madar. Tamar Dahan. Sarah Soper. Lili Morad. David Madar. Yehudit Madar. The 21 dead children of Ma'alot regret that they cannot express their gratitude for the general kindness and tolerance shown to them by the PLO felluhs that shot up their school one sunny morning in May of '74. But surely they join in gratitude with the untold thousands like them that have experienced the same general kindness and tolerance them since returning to their homeland.

I hope that you, Ric, live long enough to realize how ridiculous your comment was.
You've got to be shitting me. Did you want to convert Palestinian and Israeli bodycounts into penises and then have some sort of pissing contest? Or I can start listing the names of murdered Palestinians and then lecture you on how absurd your comment is.

Oh, no... wait a second. You are incapable of showing human emotion towards Muslims. I forgot, it's the Christian in you. Never mind. I won't bother listing the names of the dead. Carry on.

Vincent
09-06-2012, 12:07 PM
Did you want to convert Palestinian and Israeli bodycounts into penises and then have some sort of pissing contest? Or I can start listing the names of murdered Palestinians and then lecture you on how absurd your comment is.

Don't waste your keystrokes.

http://old.btselem.org/statistics/english/Casualties.asp

Its still a free country. Lecture all you'd like.

Oh, no... wait a second. You are incapable of showing human emotion towards Muslims. I forgot, it's the Christian in you. Never mind. I won't bother listing the names of the dead. Carry on.

Actually I do have compassion for muslims for reasons that are revealed in the statistics. Its their leadership that I lack compassion for, for the same reasons.

MasterOfPuppets
09-06-2012, 01:12 PM
I see no one mentioned the US turning back Jews (on the "St Louis") in 1939 to be slaughtered in Europe ? You guys crack me up... lol. But just like some Americans won't forget the USS Liberty, some Jews won't forget the St Louis...
were they turned back to be slaughtered ? you might wanna check your timelines.

st. louis incident - may 1939


DECEMBER 8, 1941
FIRST KILLING CENTER BEGINS OPERATION


JANUARY 20, 1942
WANNSEE CONFERENCE AND THE "FINAL SOLUTION"


24 Jul 1944,Discovery of Concentration Camps

the US didn't enter the war till after pearl harbor . while the european jews were being persecuted after hitlers jan 1939 speech , they weren't being slaughtered yet.
the ONLY thing the US was guilty of is turning away a boat load of european immigrants which is still done today under our immigration policies.

ricardisimo
09-07-2012, 02:54 AM
I think that's a bit of hair-splitting, since it's a fair guess that the bulk of the St. Louis passenger list (if not every single one of them) probably eventually died at the hands of the Nazis. Just a guess, admittedly, but... I still would like to know what the St. Louis has to do with the price of tea in China.

SteelerEmpire
09-08-2012, 08:00 PM
I think that's a bit of hair-splitting, since it's a fair guess that the bulk of the St. Louis passenger list (if not every single one of them) probably eventually died at the hands of the Nazis. Just a guess, admittedly, but... I still would like to know what the St. Louis has to do with the price of tea in China.

I'd like to know what the USS Liberty OR the Arabs have to do with the original post ? Kind of jumped off the subject...

ricardisimo
09-09-2012, 02:45 AM
I'd like to know what the USS Liberty OR the Arabs have to do with the original post ? Kind of jumped off the subject...
The original post was pure propaganda, so I guess you're right... anything is fair game in this thread. Carry on. Kill them all, let god sort them out.

ricardisimo
09-11-2012, 05:03 AM
More than a little bit related:


September 10, 2012
Forget Iran, it’s Israel’s Nuclear Gun Pointed at Obama's Head
The Greatest Myth of American Politics?
by JONATHAN COOK
It is possibly the greatest of American political myths, repeated ad nauseam by presidential candidates in their election campaigns. President Barack Obama has claimed that the United States enjoys a special bond with Israel unlike its relations with any other country. He has called the friendship “unshakeable”, “enduring” and “unique”, “anchored by our common interests and deeply held values”.
His Republican rival, Mitt Romney, has gone further, arguing that there is not “an inch of difference between ourselves and our ally Israel”. A recent Romney election ad, highlighting his summer visit to Israel, extolled the “deep and cherished relationship”.
But, while such pronouncements form the basis of an apparent Washington consensus, the reality is that the cherished friendship is no more than a fairy tale. It has been propagated by politicians to mask the suspicion — and plentiful examples of duplicity and betrayal — that have marked the relationship since Israel’s founding.
Politicians may prefer to express undying love for Israel, and hand over billions of dollars annually in aid, but the US security establishment has — at least, in private — always regarded Israel as an unfaithful partner.
The distrust has been particularly hard to hide in relation to Iran. Israel has been putting relentless pressure on Washington, apparently in the hope of manoeuvring it into supporting or joining an attack on Tehran to stop what Israel claims is an Iranian effort to build a nuclear bomb concealed beneath its civilian energy programme.
While coverage has focused on the personal animosity between Obama and the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, the truth is that US officials generally are deeply at odds with Israel on this issue.
The conflict burst into the open this month with reports that the Pentagon had scaled back next month’s joint military exercise, Austere Challenge, with the Israeli military that had been billed as the largest and most significant in the two countries’ history.
The goal of the exercise was to test the readiness of Israel’s missile-defence shield in case of Iranian reprisals — possibly the biggest fear holding Israel back from launching a go-it-alone attack. The Pentagon’s main leverage on Israel is its X-http://www.counterpunch.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/cookclash-e1312398376396.jpeg (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0745327540/counterpunchmaga)band radar, stationed in Israel but operated exclusively by a US crew, that would provide Israel with early warning of Iranian missiles.
A senior Israeli military official told Time magazine what message the Pentagon’s rethink had conveyed: “Basically what the Americans are saying is, ‘We don’t trust you’.”
But discord between the two “unshakeable allies” is not limited to Iran. Antipathy has been the norm for decades. Over the summer, current and former CIA officials admitted that the US security establishment has always regarded Israel as its number one counter-intelligence threat in the Middle East.
The most infamous spy working on Israel’s behalf was Jonathan Pollard, a naval intelligence officer who passed thousands of classified documents to Israel in the 1980s. Israel’s repeated requests for his release have been a running sore with the Pentagon, not least because defence officials regard promises that Israel would never again operate spies on US soil as insincere.
At least two more spies have been identified in the past few years. In 2008 a former US army engineer, Ben-Ami Kadish, admitted that he had allowed Israeli agents to photograph secret documents about US fighter jets and nuclear weapons in the 1980s. And in 2006 Lawrence Franklin, a US defence official, was convicted of passing classified documents to Israel concerning Iran.
In fact, such betrayals were assumed by Washington from the start of the relationship. In Israel’s early years, a US base in Cyprus monitored Israeli activities; today, Israeli communications are intercepted by a team of Hebrew linguists stationed at Fort Meade, Maryland.
Documents released this month by the Israeli air force archives also reveal that Israel eventually identified mysterious high-altitude planes that overflew its territory throughout the 1950s as American U-2 espionage planes.
In a sign of continuing US caution, Israel has not been included in the coterie of countries with which Washington shares sensitive intelligence. The members of the “Five Eyes” group, consisting of the US, Britain, Australia, Canada and New Zealand, have promised not to spy on each other — a condition Israel would have regularly flouted were it a member.
Indeed, Israel has even stolen the identities of nationals from these countries to assist in Mossad operations. Most notoriously, Israel forged passports to smuggle Israeli agents into Dubai in 2010 to assassinate Hamas leader Mahmoud Al Mabhouh.
Israel is far from a trusted ally in the US “war on terror”. A former intelligence official told the Associated Press in July that Israel ranked lower than Libya in a list of countries helping to fight terrorism compiled by the Bush administration after September 11.
So why all the talk of a special bond if the relationship is characterised by such deep mistrust?
Part of the answer lies in the formidably intimidating tactics of the pro-Israel lobby in Washington. Thomas Friedman, the New York Times columnist, spoke for a growing number of observers last year when he wrote that the US Congress was effectively “bought and paid for” by Israel’s lobbyists.
That power was all too evident last week when the Democratic national convention adopted an amended policy designating Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, in opposition to both international law and the vocal wishes of delegates.
But there is another, less spoken-of reason. Francis Perrin, the head of the French Atomic Agency in the 1950s and 1960s, when France was helping Israel develop a nuclear weapon against the wishes of the US, once observed that the Israeli bomb was really “aimed against the Americans”.
Not because Israel wanted to attack the US, but because it realised that — once it possessed the only nuclear arsenal in the Middle East — the US would rarely risk standing in its way, however much its policies ran counter to US interests.
For that reason, if no other, Israel is determined to stop any rival, including Iran, from getting a nuclear weapon that would end its monopoly.
Jonathan Cook won the Martha Gellhorn Special Prize for Journalism. His latest books are “Israel and the Clash of Civilisations: Iraq, Iran and the Plan to Remake the Middle East” (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0745327540/counterpunchmaga) (Pluto Press) and “Disappearing Palestine: Israel’s Experiments in Human Despair (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1848130317/counterpunchmaga)” (Zed Books). His website is www.jkcook.net (http://www.jkcook.net/).

Vincent
09-11-2012, 08:38 AM
"Palestine" does not exist. It has never existed. It never will exist. It is a ruse for the purpose of destroying Israel, and every Mideast muslim knows it.

Zahir Muhsein, then head of the Palestine Liberation Organization's Military Department and a member of its Executive Committee stated to Dutch paper “Dagblad de Verdieping Trouw” on March 31, 1977 the following... (http://books.google.com/books?id=ZPA_iRdmJa0C&pg=PA390&lpg=PA390&dq=%E2%80%9CThe+Palestinian+people+does+not+exist. +The+creation+of+a+Palestinian+state+is+only+a+mea ns+for+continuing+our+struggle+against+the+State+o f+Israel+for+our+Arab+unity.+In+reality,+Today,+th ere+is+no+difference+between+Jordanians,+Palestini ans,+Syrians+and+Lebanese.+Only+for+political+and+ tactical+reasons+do+we+speak,+Today,+about+the+exi stence+of+a+Palestinian+people,+since+Arab+nationa l+interests+demand+that+we+posit+the+existence+of+ a+distinct+Palestinian+people+to+oppose+Zionism.+F or+tactical+reasons,+Jordan+--+which+is+a+sovereign+state+with+defined+borders+--+cannot+raise+claims+to+Haifa+and+Jaffa.+While,+as +a+Palestinian,+I+can+undoubtedly+demand+Haifa,+Ja ffa,+Beersheba+and+Jerusalem.+However,+the+moment+ we+reclaim+our+right+to+all+of+Palestine,+we+will+ not+wait+even+a+minute+to+unite+Palestine+and+Jord an.%E2%80%9D+%28Excerpt+from+interview+given+to+Am sterdam-based+newspaper+%E2%80%9CDagblad+de+Verdieping+Tro uw%E2%80%9D,+March+31,+1977%29.&source=bl&ots=wORf6NNbAr&sig=KdKrntXwOyyqo1LjnGXDMQqrCIA&hl=en#v=onepage&q=%E2%80%9CThe%20Palestinian%20people%20does%20not %20exist.%20The%20creation%20of%20a%20Palestinian% 20state%20is%20only%20a%20means%20for%20continuing %20our%20struggle%20against%20the%20State%20of%20I srael%20for%20our%20Arab%20unity.%20In%20reality%2 C%20Today%2C%20there%20is%20no%20difference%20betw een%20Jordanians%2C%20Palestinians%2C%20Syrians%20 and%20Lebanese.%20Only%20for%20political%20and%20t actical%20reasons%20do%20we%20speak%2C%20Today%2C% 20about%20the%20existence%20of%20a%20Palestinian%2 0people%2C%20since%20Arab%20national%20interests%2 0demand%20that%20we%20posit%20the%20existence%20of %20a%20distinct%20Palestinian%20people%20to%20oppo se%20Zionism.%20For%20tactical%20reasons%2C%20Jord an%20--%20which%20is%20a%20sovereign%20state%20with%20def ined%20borders%20--%20cannot%20raise%20claims%20to%20Haifa%20and%20Ja ffa.%20While%2C%20as%20a%20Palestinian%2C%20I%20ca n%20undoubtedly%20demand%20Haifa%2C%20Jaffa%2C%20B eersheba%20and%20Jerusalem.%20However%2C%20the%20m oment%20we%20reclaim%20our%20right%20to%20all%20of %20Palestine%2C%20we%20will%20not%20wait%20even%20 a%20minute%20to%20unite%20Palestine%20and%20Jordan .%E2%80%9D%20%28Excerpt%20from%20interview%20given %20to%20Amsterdam-based%20newspaper%20%E2%80%9CDagblad%20de%20Verdie ping%20Trouw%E2%80%9D%2C%20March%2031%2C%201977%29 .&f=false)

“The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the State of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality, Today, there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak, today, about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan -- which is a sovereign state with defined borders -- cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa. While, as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beersheba and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”

Like all things left, its bull@#$%.

Vincent
09-11-2012, 09:16 AM
"There were no such thing as Palestinians. When was there an independent Palestinian people with a Palestinian state? It was either southern Syria before the First World War, and then it was a Palestine including Jordan. It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist."

Golda Meir - numerous sources (https://www.google.com/search?q=There+were+no+such+thing+as+Palestinians&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)

Vincent
09-11-2012, 10:08 AM
http://www.templemount.org/quranland.html
Islam/Commentary:
WHAT THE QUR'AN REALLY SAYS
by Shaykh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi
________________________________________
THE QUR'AN SAYS THAT ALLAH GAVE THE LAND OF ISRAEL TO THE JEWS
AND WILL RESTORE THEM TO IT AT THE END OF DAYS

THE QUR'AN SAYS:

"To Moses We [Allah] gave nine clear signs. Ask the Israelites how he [Moses] first appeared amongst them. Pharoah said to him: 'Moses, I can see that you are bewitched.' 'You know full well,' he [Moses] replied, 'that none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth has revealed these visible signs. Pharoah, you are doomed.'"

"Pharoah sought to scare them [the Israelites] out of the land [of Israel]: but We [Allah] drowned him [Pharoah] together with all who were with him. Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together ."

"We [Allah] have revealed the Qur'an with the truth, and with the truth it has come down. We have sent you [Muhammed] forth only to proclaim good news and to give warning."

[Qur'an, "Night Journey," chapter 17:100-104]

SHAYKH PROF. PALAZZI COMMENTS:

God wanted to give Avraham a double blessing, through Ishmael and through Isaac, and ordered that Ishmael's descendents should live in the desert of Arabia and Isaac's in Canaan.

The Qur'an recognizes the Land of Israel as the heritage of the Jews and it explains that, before the Last Judgment, Jews will return to dwell there. This prophecy has already been fulfilled.

****************************************

MUSLIMS MUST RECOGNIZE THE STATE OF ISRAEL AS A JEWISH STATE

Is there any fundamental reason which prohibits Muslims from recognizing Israel as a friendly State?

I realize that a negative answer to the above question is taken for granted by popular opinion. My approach, however, is not based on popular opinion or the current political situation, but on a theological analysis of authentic Islamic sources.

Viewing the Jewish return to Israel as a Western invasion and Zionists as recent colonizers is new. It has no basis in authentic Islamic faith. According to the Qur'an, no person, people or religious community can claim a permanent right of possession over any territory. The Earth belongs exclusively to God, and He is free to entrust sovereignty over land to whomever He likes for whatever time period that He chooses.

"Say: 'O God, King of the kingdom (1), Thou givest the kingdom to whom Thou pleasest, and Thou strippest off the kingdom from whom Thou pleasest; Thou endowest with honour whom Thou pleasest, and Thou bringest low whom Thou pleasest: all the best is in Thy hand. Verily, Thou hast power over all things.'"(2) [Qur'an 3:26]

From the above Qur'anic verse we deduce a basic principle of the Monotheistic philosophy of history: God chooses as He likes in the relationship between peoples and countries. Sometimes He gives a land to a people, and sometimes He takes His possession back and gives it to another people.

In general, we can say that He gives as a reward for faithfulness and takes back as a punishment for wickedness, but this rule does not permit us to say that God's ways are always plain and clear to our eyes, since His secrets are inaccessible to the human intellect.

Using Islam as a basis for preventing Arabs from recognizing any sovereign right of Jews over the Land of Israel is new. Such beliefs are not found in classical Islamic sources.

Concluding that anti-Zionism is the logical outgrowth of Islamic faith is wrong. This conclusion represents the false transformation of Islam from a religion into a secularized ideology.

Such a false transformation of Islam was in fact made by the late Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin el-Husseini. He is the one person most responsible, both morally and materially, for the repeated Arab defeats in their conflict with the Jews in Israel.

Husseni not only incited Arabs against Jews. He also encouraged the torture and murder of all Arabs who correctly understood that Arab cooperation with Jews was a precious opportunity for the development of the Land of Israel. Husseini ended his woeful life by putting his perverted religious teachings at the service of the evil and pagan Nazis.

After Husseini came Jamal al-Din 'Abd al-Nasser. Nasser based his policy on Pan-Arabism, hatred and contempt for Jews, and an alliance with the atheistic Soviet Union. Nasser's terrible choices were critical factors in maintaining Arab backwardness. Fortunately, most of Nasser's mistakes were afterward corrected by the martyr Anwar Sadat. (3)

After the defeat of Nasserianism, Islamic fundamentalist movements made anti-Zionism the primary feature of their propaganda. They presented the negation of any Jewish rights to the Land of Israel as rooted in authentic Islam and derived from authentic Islamic religious principles.

***********************************

THE LAND OF ISRAEL IN QUR'ANIC EXEGESIS

The fundamentalist Muslim program to use Islam as an instrument for political warfare against Jews finds a major obstacle in the Qur'an itself. Both the Bible and the Qur'an state quite clearly that the right of the Israelites to the Land of Israel does not depend on conquest and colonization. This right flows from the will of almighty God Himself.

Both the Jewish and Islamic Scriptures teach that God, through His chosen servant Moses, decided to free the offspring of Jacob from slavery in Egypt and to constitute them as heirs of the Promised Land. Whoever claims that Jewish sovereignty over the Land of Israel is something new and rooted in human politics denies divine revelation and divine prophecy as explicitly expressed in our Holy Books (the Bible and Koran).

The Qur'an relates the words by which Moses ordered the Israelites to conquer the Land:

"And [remember] when Moses said to his people: 'O my people, call in remembrance the favour of God unto you, when he produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave to you what He had not given to any other among the peoples. O my people, enter the Holy Land which God has assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin.'" [Qur'an 5:20-21]

Moreover - and those who try to use Islam as a weapon against Israel always conveniently ignore this point - the Holy Qur'an explicitly refers to the return of the Jews to the Land of Israel before the Last Judgment - where it says: "And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd.'" [Qur'an 17:104]

Therefore, from an Islamic point of view, there is NO fundamental reason which prohibits Muslims from recognizing Israel as a friendly State.

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ISLAM AND NORMALIZATION OF RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN ISLAMIC STATES AND THE JEWISH STATE

PLO documents can in no way be regarded as Islamic. The [I]PLO leaders are a gang of criminals and thieves, and Arabs will be the main victims of any supposed "Palestinian State" under their leadership.


I do not believe that Islam is the factor preventing normalization between Arabs and the State of Israel. The real problem is that members of the ruling classes in Arab countries believe their authority and power would be threatned by democracy, modernization, and education in the Arab world. They use a distorted interpretation of Islam as a political tool, and unfortunately the majority of uneducated Arabs believe their poisonous propaganda.

I believe that we must return to the time when Islam was in the vanguard of scientific progress and interfaith dialogue. Instead of false "leaders" such as Qadhafi,

Saddam Hussein, Arafat [el-Husseini] or Yasin, we Muslims again need true leaders such as al-Ghazali, Ibn Rushd and Ibn Khaldum.

King Faysal of Iraq said: "The Arabs, and particularly the educated ones among them, must look at the Zionist movement with the deepest sympathy."

Tragically, true leaders such as Faysal were silenced, and fanatics such as Haj Amin al-Husseini prevailed.

The evil consequences of the victory of fanaticism are clear for all to see: Jews expelled from Arab countries where the lived in peace for over one thousand years, "Palestinian" refugees, terrorism, etc. To avoid future mistakes, we must learn from our past ones.

Unfortunately, there are Arabs who believe that they must fight against Israel until they completely destroy it (a tragedy which I do not believe the God of Israel will ever permit to happen - Never again!).

Unfortunately, there are also naive and foolish Israelis who believe, incredibly to me, that they will achieve "peace" with their Arab neighbours by giving the murderer "Arafat" [el-Husseini] a State, an army, etc. This is insane. You Jews are supposedly famous for your intelligence. How can some of your "leaders" be so stupid?
From the perspective of the natural world, I am not optimistic about what the future holds. However, from the supernatural perspective of faith, we who believe in God must face the future with a positive attitude.

We must have faith that we will see the day when real peace and prosperity - which can only be based on true faith in God and His Word (the Bible and Rabbinic Tradition for you; the Bible, Qur'an and Authentic Islamic Tradition for us) - will spread throughout the world. Meanwhile, we must work together to prepare for a better future.

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MUSLIMS MUST RECOGNIZE JEWISH SOVEREIGNTY OVER JERUSALEM

From an Islamic point of view, is there any fundamental reason which prohibits Muslims from recognizing Jerusalem both as an Islamic Holy Place and as the capital of the State of Israel?

I realize that a negative answer to the above question is taken for granted by popular opinion. My approach, however, is not based on popular opinion or the current political situation, but on a theological analysis of authentic Islamic sources.

JERUSALEM IN THE QUR'AN

The most common argument against Muslim acknowledgment of Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem is that, since al-Quds [Jerusalem] (4) is a Holy Place for Muslims, Muslims cannot accept that it is ruled by non-Muslims, because such acceptance amounts to a betrayal of Islam.

Before expressing our point of view on this question, we must reflect upon the reason for which Jerusalem and Masjid al-Aqsa [the Al Aksa mosque] hold such a sacred position in Islamic faith.

As is well known, the inclusion of Jerusalem among Islamic holy places derives from al-Mi'raj, the Ascension of the Prophet Muhammed to heaven. The Ascension began at the Rock, usually identified by Muslim scholars as the Foundation Stone of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem referred to in Jewish sources.

Recalling this link requires us to admit that there is no connection between al-Miraj [the Ascension] and Muslim sovereign rights over Jerusalem since, in the time that al-Miraj took place, the City was not under Islamic, but under Byzantine administration. Moreover, the Qur'an expressly recognizes that Jerusalem plays for Jews the same role that Mecca does for Muslims.

We read:
"...They would not follow thy direction of prayer (qiblah), nor art thou to follow their direction of prayer; nor indeed will they follow each other's direction of prayer..." (5)
All Qur'anic commentators explain that "thy qiblah" [direction of prayer for Muslims] is clearly the Ka'bah of Mecca, while "their qiblah" [direction of prayer for Jews] refers to the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

To quote only one of the most important Muslim commentators, we read in Qadn Baydawn's Commentary:

"Verily, in their prayers Jews orientate themselves toward the Rock (sakhrah), while Christians orientate themselves eastwards..." (6)

In complete opposition to what "Islamic" fundamentalists continuously claim, the Book of Islam [the Qur'an] - as we have just now seen - recognizes Jerusalem as the Jewish direction of prayer.

Some Muslim commentators also quote the Book of Daniel (7) as a proof for this.
After reviewing the relevant Qur'anic passages concerning this matter, I conclude that, as no one denies Muslims complete sovereignty over Mecca, from an Islamic point of view - despite opposing, groundless claims - there is no reason for

Muslims to deny the State of Israel - which is a JEWISH state - complete sovereignty over Jerusalem.

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ISLAMIC HOLY PLACES

Anti-Jewish sentiments expressed by Islamic leaders throughout the Middle East are, in fact, not religious in nature, but, rather, political. The best proof of this is in the fact that Islamic anti-Judaism is quite recent.

Omar ended the Roman ban that prevented Jews to enter Jerusalem, the Ummayad caliphs in Cordoba built a synagogue for Maimonides, and Salahu-d-Din, after defeating the Crusaders, wrote to the Jewish leaders, "Your exile is over. Whoever wants to come back is welcome."

The late King Faysal of Iraq openly expressed his sympathy for the Zionist movement, while King Abdullah of Jordan was compelled to wage war against Israel by the other Arab leaders.

Recently, the Resident Arab ["Palestinian"] Wakf has made pronouncements, such as that the Western Wall (Kotel) is not a Jewish shrine, but, rather, the wall to which the Prophet's [steed] was tethered, or, at best, the wall surrounding the Muslim Mosque. The Wakf has also stated that all of Hebron should be turned over to the Resident Arab ["Palestinian"] Authority, and that Jews would be forbidden to pray in the Cave of the Patriarchs.

These kinds of declarations by the PLO gangsters are ridiculous and absurd.

The Kotel was effectively, according to the Islamic tradition, the place where al-Buraq [the Prophet's steed] was tethered, but it was already an existing part of the Herodian structure. Muslims have never prayed close to it, and it has never had a special relevance in Islam. On the contrary, everyone knows how important it is for Jewish worshippers.

continued...

Vincent
09-11-2012, 10:12 AM
... continued

Apart from Mecca, no Islamic holy place is off-limits for non-Muslims. Historical sources say that the Prophet Muhammad entertained a delegation of Christians from Najran in the Mosque of Medina, and permitted them to celebrate a mass inside the Mosque, notwithstanding the fact that Christian rites can include words that are against Islam [such as stating that Jesus is God].

There is nothing in Jewish worship that can be offensive for Muslims, and nothing in Islamic Law prevents Jews to pray on Haram al-Sharif/Har Habayyit (the Temple Mount), in the Cave of Machpela or in any other place that is regarded as holy by Muslims.

Every time I meet those who say otherwise, I ask them to identify a single authoritative Islamic source as legal proof of their claim. None of them has ever answered such a request of mine.

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NOTES:

1. The original Arabic word we translated as "kingdom" is mulk, from a Semitic root m-l-k, that is common to both Arabic and Hebrew. According to Islamic theological terminology, the three synonyms for "kingdom" are mulk, malakut and jabarut. They refer respectively to the physical, psychic and spiritual levels of existence. Of course, G-d can be called King of all of them; if here only mulk is quoted, it depends on the fact that this verse directly concerns the earthly domain. To denote a kingdom in the secular and political sense, Arabic commonly uses another derived form, that is mamlakah.

2. Koran 3:26. For typographical reasons, it is not possible to reproduce here the original Arabic text of the Koran, which must nevertheless be understood as quoted. As well here as in other Koranic quotations, the English translation of the meaning of Koranic words from Arabic is my own, but based on the most authoritative English commentaries, such as M. Marmaduke Pickthall's "The Meaning of The Glorious Koran" (Beirut 1973), 'A. Yusuf 'Ali, "The Holy Koran - Text, Translation and Commentary" (Maryland 1983) and A. 'A. Maududi "The Holy Koran - Text, Translation and Brief Notes" (Lahore 1986).

3. In using the term "martyr" I do not simply refer to one who lost his life for a good cause. I give a precise translation of the Arabic word "shahid," which identifies a "martyr" in the strictly religious sense; that is to say, someone who spent his life serving the cause of G-d. Since making peace with former enemies is an explicit Koranic order (see Koran 8:61), and since, according to Islam, Peace is G-d Himself, any believer who is killed because of his search for Peace must be understood as a religious martyr. The same considerations clearly apply to Yitzhak Rabin.

4. Arabic name of Jerusalem, from the root q-d-s, meaning "holiness". It is an abridged form of Bayt al-maqdis, "the sanctified House" or "the House of the Sanctuary", an exact equivalent of the Hebrew Beth ha-mikdash. The name originally referred only to the Temple Mount, and was afterward extended to the City as a whole. This extension of meaning became common among Arabs from the tenth century C.E. onwards. Earlier Islamic sources use the name Iliyia, an adaptation to Arabic pronounciation of the Roman name Aelia.

5. Koran 2:145.

6. M. Shaykh Zadeh Hashiyaah 'ali Tafsir al-Qadn al-Baydawn (Istanbul 1979), Vol. 1, p. 456.

7. Daniel 6:10

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Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi has been a lecturer in the Department of the History of Religion at the University of Velletri (Rome, Italy).

In 1987, after completing his secular and religious education in Rome and Cairo, he was asked to serve as an Imam (spiritual leader) for the Italian Islamic Community. In addition to numerous Masters Degrees, Prof. Palazzi hold a Ph.D in Islamic Sciences by decree of the Grand Mufti of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

In 1989 he was appointed a member of the Board of Directors of the Italian Muslim Association (AMI) and afterward elected its Secretary General.

In 1991 he was asked to act as Director of the Cultural Institute of the Italian Islamic Community (ICCII), with a program based on the development of Islamic education in Italy, refutation of fundamentalism and fanaticism, and deep involvement in inter-religious dialogue, especially with Jews and Christians.

In 1997, Prof. Palazzi's essay entitled "The Jewish-Moslem Dialogue and the Question of Jerusalem" was published by the Institute of the World Jewish Congress.

In 1997, Prof. Palazzi joined the International Council of the Root & Branch Association.

In 1998, Prof. Palazzi and Dr. Asher Eder (Jerusalem, Israel) co-founded the Islam-Israel Fellowship, which promotes a positive Muslim attitude towards Jews and Israel based on what Prof. Palazzi believes are the authentic teachings of Muhammed as expressed in the Koran and Hadith (Muslim Oral Tradition). Prof. Palazzi serves as Muslim Co-Chairman of the Fellowship. Dr. Eder serves as the Jewish Co-Chairman.

Vincent
09-11-2012, 10:59 AM
None other than Al Qaida acknowledges Israel's existence... (http://www.jpost.com/LocalIsrael/InJerusalem/Article.aspx?id=11807)

"Allah decided to test the Jews when they were still an oppressed people [while in Egypt]. He seeks to lead them to the path of faith and victory and therefore urges them to conquer the Land of Israel. They [the Jews] are even more afraid to fight for the Promised Land than they are of God. For this reason, the Jewish People does not find it hard to break the covenant between God and Abram which awarded the Land of Israel to the Jewish People for all generations."

From the Al Qaida website in 2006 in an article entitled "The Jews Are Unworthy of the Promised Land" (as translated by DEBKAfile.com).

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-SYP8d0KU32o/Tv0lVTqKMRI/AAAAAAAAAI8/57Tvv1ceL4I/s280/IslamSwastika.jpg
the "religion" of peace

ricardisimo
09-11-2012, 02:09 PM
Wow... Golda Meir and some nutjob looney sites say that Palestine never existed. Oh, well... I guess we've all been wrong.

Oh, and the sun circles the earth and there is no evolution, Darwinian or otherwise. Just wanted to get that cleared up.

Vincent
09-11-2012, 04:43 PM
Wow... Golda Meir and some nutjob looney sites say that Palestine never existed. Oh, well... I guess we've all been wrong.

Oh, and the sun circles the earth and there is no evolution, Darwinian or otherwise. Just wanted to get that cleared up.

The PLO's own leadership said that Palestine didn't exist. But I'm going to guess that Zahir Muhsein made that statement about a decade before you were born. You can't know any more than you were taught.

ricardisimo
09-12-2012, 07:35 AM
Simon Bolívar and Che said the same things about many Latin American nations. All of those countries existed and continue to exist. Waxing romantic about "One World" or "One People" doesn't magically alter reality or international law. Your failure to read between those propagandistic lines speaks volumes, however.

You also fail to distinguish between Mohsen and Arafat, or between Mohsen and the Palestinian people on the other. Those folks had something to say about this as well, you know.

Mohsen essentially followed the line of as-Sa'iqa's (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=As-Sa%27iqa%27s&action=edit&redlink=1) Syrian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian)-Baathist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baathist) ideology (Mohsen himself being as-Sa'iqa's leader under the control of the Ba'athist government of Syria under Syrian leader Hafez al-Assad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafez_al-Assad)), which interpreted the Palestinian question through a perspective of pan-Arab nationalism - despite the fact that in some respects this contravened the PLO charter, which affirms the existence of a Palestinian people with national rights, corresponding with this it is noted that hostility existed between the main Fatah faction of the PLO under Yasser Arafat and the Syrian Ba'ath party of Hafez al-Assad (which in turn supported Palestinians like Zuheir Mohsen and the Ba'athist as-Sa'iqa faction of the PLO) on this issue. Mohsen himself was in fact both a leader of the Syrian Ba'ath party controlled as-Sa'iqa faction of the PLO and a Palestinian member of the Syrian Ba'ath party's own National Command in the present day nation of Syria itself. Making Zuheir Mohsen uniquely both a PLO leader and an official in the ideologically Pan-Arabist Syrian Ba'ath party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba%27ath_party) at the same time. As such, he stated that there were "no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese", though Palestinian identity would be emphasised for political reasons. This originated in a March 1977 interview with the Dutch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands) newspaper Trouw (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trouw):[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuheir_Mohsen#cite_note-4)