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View Full Version : Personnel for a 4-3?


JVip
09-30-2012, 04:50 PM
I am going to preface this with saying that I love our 3-4 D, and that I think it can still be effective, but we currently don't have the personnel for it to function properly. I am not on the fire Lebeau band-wagon, although sometimes he doesn't make on the fly adjustments like I wish he would. Having said that I believe this will be his final year with the team.

Curious what the thought would be on the Steelers using or temporarily switching to a 4-3. The guys we have on the d-line would be better suited for it. A D-line with Heyward, Kiesel, Mclendon & Hood Could be very effective. Hood along with Heyward, and possibly Mclendon would be better suited for the 3 technique, they should be attaching, not filling gaps. I also wonder if Woodley could get rotated into that d-line.

The next issue is at the LB position. we have no depth at this position, if we temporarily switch to a 4-3 it would help with our depth situation. So how would this work? Could we switch it around like so: Foote, Woodley, Timmons as the Backers? I understand that this isn't something that could be done overnight, but could we possibly see this as a sub-package for the D, like the 4-2-5 they used a few times?

We haven't drafted very well the past few yrs at the LB position and this worries me because that's what makes our defense tick. I do like the Spence pick, and I thought he could be something special, bizzaro world Timmons if you would. It looks like the LB position is a worry for now, and the future. Especially with Harrisons health, Footes age and Timmons being average at best.

I am also curious what the difference is between our D and the Cardinals D, more specifically how they play their Corners. Do they always give an 8 yard cushion like we consistently do? Is there any difference in scheme at all between the Cards and Steelers when it comes to defense? Maybe it was all Tomlins master plan when he took over, eventhough Butler is heir apparent.

pete74
09-30-2012, 06:23 PM
i agree and i would love to see us switch since everyone seems to be running the 3-4 nowdays but it wont happen till DL retires

Curtain_of_Steel
09-30-2012, 06:42 PM
Everyone is not running at 4-3 def.

Steelers do not have the personell to run a 4-3, they would have to spend big to get it, and thats not happening, we cant get pressure not from these guys and you want to change them up to 4 new mind set positions? They have zero depth at LB thus our problems, no CBs at all, thus our problems and a safety that is hurt.

defence
09-30-2012, 09:19 PM
Everyone is not running at 4-3 def.

Steelers do not have the personell to run a 4-3, they would have to spend big to get it, and thats not happening, we cant get pressure not from these guys and you want to change them up to 4 new mind set positions? They have zero depth at LB thus our problems, no CBs at all, thus our problems and a safety that is hurt.

Sorry curtain; I totally disagree. The change won't happen this year; but it can happen for next year. As for spending big; they will be getting rid of a ton of salary and can pick up a lineman or two. ziggy is better suited for a 4 3 as is Timmons. Is it a surprise that both were 1st rounders. And you said it yourself. we have zero depth at lb and in my opinion we don't have much left there due to poor drafting. In order to run a good 3 4; the life of your d is the linebackers and right now; that is not a strong point for the Steelers. It can happen; not this year; but it can definately when Lebau is gone.

OX1947
09-30-2012, 09:57 PM
Heyward and Hood are 4-3 D-Linemen. Timmons was an outside rusher when drafted. Steelers may have finally hit a wall with draft picks into this system. Colbert has been a freakin genius with 1st rounders too.

tony hipchest
09-30-2012, 10:19 PM
can someopne please explain some peoples affinity for the 4-3 defense?

the colts defense is switching to a 3-4 defense this year.

you mean they had it right all those years when they went to the superbowl and lost another and STILL got their asses kicked by the patriots on a regular basis?

i laugh at all the steelerfans that quote brady having the 3-4 figured out as a legitimate reason to switch.

tony hipchest
09-30-2012, 10:52 PM
my answer to another fan must be considered by those proposing we make a switch next season-

that means hood and heyward put on 10 lbs and transition to DT (easier for hood).

get rid of harrison and hampton and keisel.

woodley transitions to a dwight freeney type DE. Timmons moves to weak side ILB.

that means we are looking for another DE, MLB and strong side linebacker in next years draft and FA.

thats quite a tall order considering we may need some safety and CB help as well (along with possible replacements for mendenhall and wallace).

might need to get rid of alameda and some zone cb's as well.

to make a long story short, the steelers simply arent making a switch next season. its not as simple as it may be playing madden or changing an entire philosophy before next years fantasy football draft.

i wish people would quit entertaining the idea and bringing it up on the reg as if it deserves sirius consideration.

only 1-15, 2-14 with years of sucking teams do shit like that.

JVip
09-30-2012, 11:00 PM
can someopne please explain some peoples affinity for the 4-3 defense?

the colts defense is switching to a 3-4 defense this year.

you mean they had it right all those years when they went to the superbowl and lost another and STILL got their asses kicked by the patriots on a regular basis?

i laugh at all the steelerfans that quote brady having the 3-4 figured out as a legitimate reason to switch.


Brady does have it figured out, dink-n-dunk to the endzone. That is no reason to switch to a 4-3, but I do think it's a good reason to have the personnel to play man-man.

I personally want to keep it as a 3-4, but our talent is currently not suited for it, and the young guys we do have are better suited for a 4-3 scheme.

Do you think it would be accurate to say that Hood, Heyward and Timmons would be better a better fit for a 4-3?

They are the youth in the front 7, hopefully they can be coached up to fit our scheme better soon.

Now a question for you Tony.
Is there any difference between the Cardinals scheme and ours? Basically as stated in the op.

tony hipchest
10-01-2012, 12:00 AM
Now a question for you Tony.
Is there any difference between the Cardinals scheme and ours? Basically as stated in the op.is this a rhetorical question?

our former OC is their HC. our former secondary coach is their DC. our former CB is now their secondary coach and our latest CB to leave is now their starting CB.

up until game one of this season, their starting OLB's were our 05 SB starters. :hunch:

i dont even watch all their games though, let alone rewatch or study their game film.

there are some differences in personnel though. kerry rhodes and adrian wilson havent missed a start. their #1 pick from last year patrick peterson is about as dynamic as they come. they definitely have some studs playing in their front 7.

A D-line with Heyward, Kiesel, Mclendon & Hood Could be very effective

can you name a single team that has four 300+ lb guys starting on the DL? are you suggesting the way every other team in the NFL has been running it for years is wrong, and that your way could be very effective?

you do know that a majority of our OLB's were former DE's in college, right?

teh transition you suggest just isnt that easy. i wish people would quit making line up changes on paper and thinking its as simple as baseball.

Steeldude
10-01-2012, 12:57 AM
If the Steelers switch to a 4-3(next year) they would have the 4 DL.

DE - Heyward

DT - Hood

DT - Mclendon

DE - Woodley

LBs would be a different story.

Harrison, if healthy, would stay at OLB. Timmons could play either MLB or OLB. If Spence heals he could play MLB, I suppose

preproman
10-01-2012, 06:14 AM
I would go:

DE - Worlds (Former DE)

DT - Mclendon / Alameda

DT - Hood / Draft pick

DE - Woodly (Former DE)

OL - Timmons

ML - Spence / Stevens

OL - Carter / Stevens

Haywood can go..

defence
10-01-2012, 07:55 AM
is this a rhetorical question?

our former OC is their HC. our former secondary coach is their DC. our former CB is now their secondary coach and our latest CB to leave is now their starting CB.

up until game one of this season, their starting OLB's were our 05 SB starters. :hunch:

i dont even watch all their games though, let alone rewatch or study their game film.

there are some differences in personnel though. kerry rhodes and adrian wilson havent missed a start. their #1 pick from last year patrick peterson is about as dynamic as they come. they definitely have some studs playing in their front 7.



can you name a single team that has four 300+ lb guys starting on the DL? are you suggesting the way every other team in the NFL has been running it for years is wrong, and that your way could be very effective?

you do know that a majority of our OLB's were former DE's in college, right?

teh transition you suggest just isnt that easy. i wish people would quit making line up changes on paper and thinking its as simple as baseball.


Tony; with all due respect it isn't as hard to do as you think. Teams do it all the time. The Steelers just have never done it that's why some of us have a problem thinking about the transition. all I am saying is; the Steelers have invested first round picks in guys who are better suited playing in a 4 3. Is it a coincidence; I don't know. I do know this; there d sucks right now and people can say whatever they want about personnel. When I read articles about how Carson Palmer says it's the same d over the last 7 years; that's emabarassing. I don't care what we play; but Tomlin needs to step in and get control of this d because as long as I remember; Steeler football is about defence!!! 3 4 or 4 3!!

SteelHaven
10-01-2012, 10:43 AM
For those who think we don't have the personnel to run a 4-3:

All if not 90 percent of our 1st round defensive players played a 4-3 in college, Don't forget that we will be losing Kiesel, Hampton, possibly letting Ike Taylor go to free up cap space and this will help in being able to then later sign to fill whatever we need to run a 4-3 next year.

I don't think you draft 4-3 if you don't intend on using it eventually. The 3-4 defense isn't Tomlins preferred scheme and I'm sure he's been wanting to make his own imprint on this team. He started it by drafting a 4-3 linebacker in Timmons.

Edit: Losing James Harrison will also free up cap space to fill in positions.

PhantomJB93
10-01-2012, 11:00 AM
Won't happen but Keisel, Heyward, Hood, and Woodley could form a 4-3 DLine and Timmons and Foote could play LB. I guess you could keep Harrison at LB too. Truthfully that would only get a "pass" as a 4-3, we have noone truly in the mold of a 4-3 DE on this team which is the most crucial position in that scheme. Woodley and Keisel or Woodley and Harrison could get the job done but their talents would not be maximized playing there.

SteelHaven
10-01-2012, 11:12 AM
Won't happen but Keisel, Heyward, Hood, and Woodley could form a 4-3 DLine and Timmons and Foote could play LB. I guess you could keep Harrison at LB too. Truthfully that would only get a "pass" as a 4-3, we have noone truly in the mold of a 4-3 DE on this team which is the most crucial position in that scheme. Woodley and Keisel or Woodley and Harrison could get the job done but their talents would not be maximized playing there.

I'm not sure what you mean by not having a true 4-3 DE in the mold.. You forgot Woirlds who also played 4-3 DE in college. I agree we won't see a switch this year but as I stated above. With Harrison, Hampton, Kiesel retiring/or just going in a different direction this opens up cap space. We may just have the money to fill what we need for next year to fully turn into a 4-3 via the draft and free agency.

steelfury02
10-01-2012, 11:28 AM
would have loved to been a fly on the wall in first coaches meeting after loss to Raiders, and then subsequent meetings after learning Harrison had another setback.

The constant shifting in approach has got to be maddening at times.

casteeler
10-01-2012, 11:29 AM
I like the wide 9 look but that requires very speedy defensive ends. This Sunday against the Eagles should answer a couple questions if Troy and Harrison are playing,the front 7 of the Steeler D need to play smart with Vick and McCoy being dangerous on the run and hopefully Clark and Troy can help the CBs cover

tony hipchest
10-01-2012, 01:15 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by not having a true 4-3 DE in the mold.. You forgot Woirlds who also played 4-3 DE in college. I agree we won't see a switch this year but as I stated above. With Harrison, Hampton, Kiesel retiring/or just going in a different direction this opens up cap space. We may just have the money to fill what we need for next year to fully turn into a 4-3 via the draft and free agency.

worilds was a defensive end in college considered to be TOO SMALL to make the transition to DE in the pros. just like porter, just like haggans, gildon, hell, even lamaar woodley was considered to small and slow to transition well.

thats why many of these stud atheletes fall in the draft. that is why steelers found so many good ones, because back in the day they were one of the few teams transitioning these guys to 3-4 OLB's.

since then, many teams copy us.

a prototypical 4-3 DE looks like julius peppers, jarod allen, mario williams (all considered too smal to be 3-4 DE's).

you just dont swap them for the sake of swapping them and think its gonna work.

hell there were many who though #1 overall pick wouldnt be able to play OLB in the texans new 3-4.

know what? after 1 year, he is not an OLB with the texans no more.

Steelersfan87
10-01-2012, 02:21 PM
Switching to a 4-3 is nowhere visible on the horizon. For people saying "so-and-so played in a 4-3 in college" - most college teams run 4-3s. But college 4-3 and pro 4-3 is not the same thing either. That's why many college DTs become DEs and DEs become OLBs. It's also presumptuous to claim to know things like Heyward and Timmons being better suited for the 3-4. So many people said Colon wold take to playing guard like a fish in water, but he's still struggling with the transition. Never trust internet forum strategerists.

Fire Arians
10-01-2012, 02:39 PM
you can't switch from a 3-4 to 4-3 during the season, there's just so many changes that it's challenging for even the best DC's to pull it off in one offseason

SteelHaven
10-01-2012, 02:46 PM
Duly noted tony hipchest..

We can all debate what they might or should do (to switch, not to switch, use both) but the only thing is certain we're going to do what ever Keith Butler wants to do when he takes over.

Anyone have any clue what he's going to favor as far as scheme?

maddog78
10-01-2012, 02:48 PM
In today's passing league, you need four pass rushers, not three guys standing up playing gap control.

To wit, put Woodley, Ta'amu, Hood, and Heyward on the DL and turn them loose like rabid dogs.

Our read/react 3-4 is going the way of the dodo bird. It's too easy for OL to legally chop our guys, and we get no QB pressure.

How many shreddings do we have to watch before something is done?

maddog78
10-01-2012, 02:55 PM
worilds was a defensive end in college considered to be TOO SMALL to make the transition to DE in the pros. just like porter, just like haggans, gildon, hell, even lamaar woodley was considered to small and slow to transition well.
.

Think you're dead wrong about Woodley. Would be a great DE in a 4-3.

If he's too slow to do that, what's he doing in pass coverage all the time? How is he able to rush the passer from essentially the same spot?

maddog78
10-01-2012, 02:56 PM
Duly noted tony hipchest..

We can all debate what they might or should do (to switch, not to switch, use both) but the only thing is certain we're going to do what ever Keith Butler wants to do when he takes over.

Anyone have any clue what he's going to favor as far as scheme?

Is it a given that Butler is taking over?

SteelHaven
10-01-2012, 03:00 PM
Is it a given that Butler is taking over?

I'm pretty sure it's in his contract that he'd be the next D-coordinator. He was going to the Colts- (The Colts wanted him) but the Steelers were able to retain him on a promise that he'd take over after Lebeau.

tony hipchest
10-01-2012, 03:49 PM
Think you're dead wrong about Woodley. Would be a great DE in a 4-3.

If he's too slow to do that, what's he doing in pass coverage all the time? How is he able to rush the passer from essentially the same spot?


im passing up the scouts analysis. take it up with them. http://www.profootballweekly.com/2010/12/15/scouts-notebook-steelers-lolb-lamarr-woodley

LOLB LaMarr Woodley
Pittsburgh Steelers
Height: 6-1 Weight: 265 Speed: 4.74

Notes: Stood out at Michigan (2003-06), where he started 33-of-49 career games 15 at right defensive end, 18 at rush linebacker and totaled 177 tackles, 52 tackles for loss and 25 sacks with five batted passes and 10 forced fumbles. Took home the Lombardi and Hendricks Awards as a senior when he was the Big Ten's Defensive Player of the Year. Was selected in the second round (46th overall) of the '07 draft. Has started 44-of-57 games played at left outside linebacker in the pros, totaling 180 tackles and 37 sacks with 11 batted passes, three interceptions (one TD), seven forced fumbles and two fumble return TDs. Missed three games in '07 with a hamstring injury that derailed his rookie season and one in '08 (calf), when he was one of the NFL's most improved players. Is currently in the last year of his rookie contract.

Positives: Very thickly built with a strong base and natural leverage to get underneath blockers' pads. Possesses excellent hand strength to control blockers and long arms to keep them off his frame. Stout run defender rag-dolls tight ends, leverages the edge and constricts running lanes. Forceful tackler. Understands how to set up pass-rush moves and takes good pursuit angles. Keeps his feet running while working hand-rush moves has a long second step and can trim the corner quickly. Very good balance is seldom on the ground. Times up blitzes nicely.

Negatives: Lacks prototypical height for a rush linebacker. Has an inconsistent get-off and lacks elite closing burst. Is not an overly creative pass rusher and can get hung up on the double-team. Not loose-hipped to flip in coverage and carry tight ends down the field. Can be exposed in man coverage struggles with his back to the ball. Coverage instincts are average (although they have improved and he returned an interception for a TD vs. Cincinnati in Week 14). Rounds out of his breaks in zone coverage and loses some ground in transition.

Summary: An extremely strong, instinctive leverage rusher who saw limited action as a rookie in 2007, but broke out in his sophomore season, when he replaced Clark Haggins in the lineup, and became the first player ever to notch double-digit sacks in every (three) postseason contest on the Steelers' Super Bowl run. Is very effective on stunts and frees up James Harrison to make plays. Can be mismatched in coverage but brings great value defending the run and leveraging the edge, and stands as the Steelers' top priority before he hits free agency this coming offseason.



6'2" is still 6'2" no matter how you slice it.

just because he does in fact drop into a ZONE on pass defense, lets not make it like he is covering mike wallace in the slot, playing man-to-man, bump and run.

JVip
10-02-2012, 12:37 AM
is this a rhetorical question?

our former OC is their HC. our former secondary coach is their DC. our former CB is now their secondary coach and our latest CB to leave is now their starting CB.

up until game one of this season, their starting OLB's were our 05 SB starters. :hunch:

i dont even watch all their games though, let alone rewatch or study their game film.

there are some differences in personnel though. kerry rhodes and adrian wilson havent missed a start. their #1 pick from last year patrick peterson is about as dynamic as they come. they definitely have some studs playing in their front 7.



can you name a single team that has four 300+ lb guys starting on the DL? are you suggesting the way every other team in the NFL has been running it for years is wrong, and that your way could be very effective?

you do know that a majority of our OLB's were former DE's in college, right?

teh transition you suggest just isnt that easy. i wish people would quit making line up changes on paper and thinking its as simple as baseball.

The question is not rhetorical at all, you seem to know what you are talking about and I was curious whether the scheme is played exactly the same as ours. Just because Horton learned from Lebeau and has Willy playing CB doesn't mean he runs the D in the exact same fashion as we do. Although that is the most likely scenario.

I realize that switching to a 4-3 is not optimal or practical for that matter, but it is the bye week and news is slow. Why not find some way to talk about something Steelers related. I don't see why some conjecture on the topic irritates you so much.

Riddle_Of_Steel
10-04-2012, 01:29 AM
I think personnel is less an issue with switching to a 4-3, than one simple, but HUGE stumbling block-- have they practiced a 4-3 at all? Little if any at all. That's not our scheme.

That sort of change in philosophy does not happen overnight. Few teams have been able to make a smooth transition with a whole offseason to work with. Watching the Colts' version of the 3-4 is entertaining at best this year (the really interesting part is that Arians is now the top dog over there)-- but it sure isn't stopping much.

I think the only major reason you could make to install a 4-3 right now is a lack of depth at LB. Then we only have to worry about fielding 3 LBers as opposed to our normal 4. Also, it removes the burden of pass rushing from the LBers and gives it largely to the DEs. While Hamp and Kiesel have been getting shredded this season, we are still better off at Dline right now with Ziggy, Mclendon, Hood, Ta'amu (in a pinch) than we are with Chris Carter and Worilds providing our non- pass rush.