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BKAnthem
10-02-2012, 06:30 PM
Has anyone seen any improvement in the O Line since he's been here? I know i have an untrained eye but i don't see much more improvement than when Larry (Flynt) Zierlein was here..and injuries could be a small part of it...but i'm not leaning on that excuse

Steelersfan87
10-02-2012, 06:36 PM
Well, I would say there was improvement, but that also had a lot to do with Maurkice Pouncey, who was drafted the same time Kugler was brought over.

BKAnthem
10-02-2012, 07:01 PM
I don't know, 4 High round draft picks on the Oline and i still don't see much....

teegre
10-02-2012, 07:04 PM
He got the Steelers to the SuperBowl, despite losing both starting OTs (Starks & The Colon), and losing Pouncey in the end of the season. Also, considering with whom Kugler has had to work, I'd say he has done a darn good job.

Here is who he has had:

OT: Starks is old & injured. Gilbert is young... but, looked good as a rookie. The Colon was injured for two seasons. The Hotel played very well (better than he did the year prior, in DAL).

OG: Kemo was uncoachable. Foster has faired well, despite being a rookie free agent.

OC: Pouncey is Pouncey. Legursky has faired well, despite being a rookie free agent.

SUMMATION:
I'd like to see how he does at developing Gilbert, Adams, & DD (& Beachum)... and then, I will know more.

teegre
10-02-2012, 07:07 PM
I don't know, 4 High round draft picks on the Oline and i still don't see much....

Two rookies (DD & Adams). One is injured; one came into the league with issues.

Gilbert is only in his second year.

Pouncey is Pouncey.

I say that we/you/I should give Kugler (at least) another year to deveop these guys, before we evaluate him.

[This is similar to my other post, but as I was typing that, another post was made.. and this is a direct response about the "4 high draft picks".]

BKAnthem
10-02-2012, 08:54 PM
ok ...i will reserve further judgement until after this season

Millers the sh!t
10-02-2012, 09:59 PM
Still a tad too early. But if I had to judge now. I'd say he's no improvement, and we should be looking for someone else.

tony hipchest
10-03-2012, 12:26 AM
to a man, the steelers o-line have always said they wanna be "punch you in the mouth" brawlers. tomlin has always said he fancies a smash mouth run game. that seems to be contrary to the finesse zone blocking schemes his coordinators (and by defunct?) o-line coaches, seem to prefer and teach.

as much as i admire the job stone cold keugler has done with the weapons at his disposal, i wonder if we have been trying to fit square pegs in a round hole.

make no mistake, our o-line is HUGE and there is no reason they shouldnt be able to push the pile (even w/ decastro out).

i also wish gilbert would focus as much on his training and study, as he does his social media status and partying.

teegre
10-03-2012, 01:02 AM
to a man, the steelers o-line have always said they wanna be "punch you in the mouth" brawlers. tomlin has always said he fancies a smash mouth run game. that seems to be contrary to the finesse zone blocking schemes his coordinators (and by defunct?) o-line coaches, seem to prefer and teach.

as much as i admire the job stone cold keugler has done with the weapons at his disposal, i wonder if we have been trying to fit square pegs in a round hole.

make no mistake, our o-line is HUGE and there is no reason they shouldnt be able to push the pile (even w/ decastro out).

i also wish gilbert would focus as much on his training and study, as he does his social media status and partying.

Interesting point.

The Colon is definitely smash-mouth. I would say that Pouncey & DD are more of the finesse style. I'm not sure about Adams & Gilbert. [I'm not sure about Adams at all.]

So, do you think that need at least one more O-lineman (LG)... and possibly three (LG, LT, RT)? Or, do you think that these players can adapt to the zone-blocking, finesse style? Better yet, might the interior be finesse, and the tackles be smash-mouth? Similarly, maybe the left side is smash-mouth, and the middle to right side is finesse...???

tony hipchest
10-03-2012, 01:47 AM
Interesting point.

The Colon is definitely smash-mouth. I would say that Pouncey & DD are more of the finesse style. I'm not sure about Adams & Gilbert. [I'm not sure about Adams at all.]

So, do you think that need at least one more O-lineman (LG)... and possibly three (LG, LT, RT)? Or, do you think that these players can adapt to the zone-blocking, finesse style? Better yet, might the interior be finesse, and the tackles be smash-mouth? Similarly, maybe the left side is smash-mouth, and the middle to right side is finesse...???i think colon will eventually be fine. i just expected him to come right out of the gate gangbusters. i guess my expectations were too high and unrealistic. i still think he will be good, just not the immediate pro-bowler i predicted.


beachum has been understandably horrible. the fact that he even made the roster kinda suggests which direction the OL may be heading. like you said, we will probably stand pat on the outside. starks is cheap and adams and gilbert are way too young to give up on now (like we did w/ urbick).

thats just my opinion. admittedly i am least comfortable discussing the OL as i have never played the position or really even studied it until the past few years.

Hawaii 5-0
10-03-2012, 02:30 AM
thats just my opinion. admittedly i am least comfortable discussing the OL as i have never played the position or really even studied it until the past few years.

that doesn't seem to stop any of the other posters here from freely sharing their opinions...:noidea:

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-03-2012, 09:21 AM
Interesting point.

The Colon is definitely smash-mouth. I would say that Pouncey & DD are more of the finesse style. I'm not sure about Adams & Gilbert. [I'm not sure about Adams at all.]

So, do you think that need at least one more O-lineman (LG)... and possibly three (LG, LT, RT)? Or, do you think that these players can adapt to the zone-blocking, finesse style? Better yet, might the interior be finesse, and the tackles be smash-mouth? Similarly, maybe the left side is smash-mouth, and the middle to right side is finesse...???

Nothing finesse about Decastro or Pouncey. When Gerald McCoy says Pouncey was the toughest guy he played against and Almeda Ta'amu says he kept an eye on where DeCastro was in Stanford vs Washington games..........you know those guys bring it.

DeCastro, Colon and Pouncey are nasty finishers, but the 2 young guys IMO do a great job at getting position on defenders and driving them. Colon just mauls more than sealing gaps.

Has Kugler done much?? Look at the injuries and talent that he has dealt with the past couple years. The thing that I like about his line so far is that he has them playing beyond the whistle, where I noticed guys from Zeirline's lines standing around and watching the play at times... being less persistent than the defense.

They will be tested this week on blitz pickup. Ben needs to find his hot receivers, while the O line needs to pick up 1 man per man and let the free blitzer come from the farthest distance away. If Mendenhall has any form, I see him rushing for 70 yards on sunday.

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-03-2012, 09:22 AM
that doesn't seem to stop any of the other posters here from freely sharing their opinions...:noidea:

I resemble that remark. :hatsoff:

teegre
10-03-2012, 09:24 AM
i think colon will eventually be fine. i just expected him to come right out of the gate gangbusters. i guess my expectations were too high and unrealistic. i still think he will be good, just not the immediate pro-bowler i predicted.


beachum has been understandably horrible. the fact that he even made the roster kinda suggests which direction the OL may be heading. like you said, we will probably stand pat on the outside. starks is cheap and adams and gilbert are way too young to give up on now (like we did w/ urbick).

thats just my opinion. admittedly i am least comfortable discussing the OL as i have never played the position or really even studied it until the past few years.

I, too, was certain that The Colon was going to be awesome. [It's early; he still could be.] I had visions of The Colon pushing his defender forward about three yards, and DD pulling through that hole, into the second level, followed by a RB, who gained 6 yards per rush. Maybe that is what will happen during the play-offs.

teegre
10-03-2012, 09:32 AM
Nothing finesse about Decastro or Pouncey. When Gerald McCoy says Pouncey was the toughest guy he played against and Almeda Ta'amu says he kept an eye on where DeCastro was in Stanford vs Washington games..........you know those guys bring it.

DeCastro, Colon and Pouncey are nasty finishers, but the 2 young guys IMO do a great job at getting position on defenders and driving them. Colon just mauls more than sealing gaps.


I watched DD for two years, and he was like a 300 lb FB: pulling, through holes, into the second level.

I'm not saying that they aren't tough... Pouncey & DD are as tough as I've seen, but aren't the two of them more athletic than smash-mouth? [I'm really asking, because, if finesse isn't being athletic, then I don't think that I understand what finesse is...]

jtbsteeler
10-03-2012, 09:50 AM
The line has for the most part looked good this year in pass protection.

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-03-2012, 10:51 AM
I watched DD for two years, and he was like a 300 lb FB: pulling, through holes, into the second level.

I'm not saying that they aren't tough... Pouncey & DD are as tough as I've seen, but aren't the two of them more athletic than smash-mouth? [I'm really asking, because, if finesse isn't being athletic, then I don't think that I understand what finesse is...]

Ahhh, I understand where you are at now. If an O lineman isnt a big nasty mauler, he isnt going to play in the NFL unless he is athletic and can get to a defender's correct side to effectively block him out of the play in the run game.

Guys like Darnell Stapleton, Legursky or Sean Mahan are classic examples of linemen that were not overly big and got overpowered by bigger D linemen, but could be effective against them by cutting the off to the play. They might honestly be better in a zone block offense than a power man offense.

Max Unger of Seattle vs. Alex Mack of Cleveland is another classic example where Unger gets his man blocked by technique rather than overpowering him, while Mack plays a stronger game, but is equally as technical and athletic. Unger gets deemed a finesse center, while Mack a powerful kid.

DeCastro and Pouncey are both athletic, get good angles and hand placement, but they finish their blocks with a nasty attitude and try to pancake defenders if they can. Players like Legursky, Stapleton, Unger, etc. tend to try and get their man blocked and get back to the huddle. In reality, there is not that much finesse in the trenches, but rather intelligence and physical execution.

teegre
10-03-2012, 02:51 PM
Ahhh, I understand where you are at now. If an O lineman isnt a big nasty mauler, he isnt going to play in the NFL unless he is athletic and can get to a defender's correct side to effectively block him out of the play in the run game.

Guys like Darnell Stapleton, Legursky or Sean Mahan are classic examples of linemen that were not overly big and got overpowered by bigger D linemen, but could be effective against them by cutting the off to the play. They might honestly be better in a zone block offense than a power man offense.

Max Unger of Seattle vs. Alex Mack of Cleveland is another classic example where Unger gets his man blocked by technique rather than overpowering him, while Mack plays a stronger game, but is equally as technical and athletic. Unger gets deemed a finesse center, while Mack a powerful kid.

DeCastro and Pouncey are both athletic, get good angles and hand placement, but they finish their blocks with a nasty attitude and try to pancake defenders if they can. Players like Legursky, Stapleton, Unger, etc. tend to try and get their man blocked and get back to the huddle. In reality, there is not that much finesse in the trenches, but rather intelligence and physical execution.

Thant makes total sense. Now, I get it. Thank you.

Hawaii 5-0
10-03-2012, 03:07 PM
Ahhh, I understand where you are at now. If an O lineman isnt a big nasty mauler, he isnt going to play in the NFL unless he is athletic and can get to a defender's correct side to effectively block him out of the play in the run game.

Guys like Darnell Stapleton, Legursky or Sean Mahan are classic examples of linemen that were not overly big and got overpowered by bigger D linemen, but could be effective against them by cutting the off to the play. They might honestly be better in a zone block offense than a power man offense.

Max Unger of Seattle vs. Alex Mack of Cleveland is another classic example where Unger gets his man blocked by technique rather than overpowering him, while Mack plays a stronger game, but is equally as technical and athletic. Unger gets deemed a finesse center, while Mack a powerful kid.

DeCastro and Pouncey are both athletic, get good angles and hand placement, but they finish their blocks with a nasty attitude and try to pancake defenders if they can. Players like Legursky, Stapleton, Unger, etc. tend to try and get their man blocked and get back to the huddle. In reality, there is not that much finesse in the trenches, but rather intelligence and physical execution.

very good post! :applaudit: :thumbsup:

Curtain_of_Steel
10-03-2012, 04:05 PM
Come on Tony, social media and is big part of playing football these days, lol. These guys need to vent after committing dumbass penalties and losing games they shouldn't lose.

Colon is smash mouth? Yea he talks a lot of shit after he committs a stupid ass penalty, than Gilbert Tweets about it, lol. Not sure if Colon will be eventually fine, as I dont see them paying anywheres close to what he made this year. Usually that means he is out the door? Is this is last contract year? Or did we sign him to a 5 year 50million extension that I missed?lol

MasterOfPuppets
10-03-2012, 11:39 PM
. The thing that I like about his line so far is that he has them playing beyond the whistle,.
i think he may have..over coached, kemo.....:noidea:

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-04-2012, 12:11 PM
i think he may have..over coached, kemo.....:noidea:

:buttkick:

Steel95
10-04-2012, 03:53 PM
I thought I was the only one wondering about this guy; is it the scheme, the coach, or the players? Maybe a combination of all three. But one thing is for sure, that crps group of guys seems 2b confused blocking and picking up blitzes. Something there isn't right; I think they can do a lot better. Mike Tomlin brought this guy in, he hasn't been too impressive to me.

Fire Arians
10-04-2012, 04:55 PM
i think the pass protection has been good this year (prolly due to colon being 3x better than kemo who couldn't pick up a stunt to save his life). run game a little disappointing, but that could be because of haley's blocking schemes being something new to learn

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-04-2012, 05:37 PM
i think the pass protection has been good this year (prolly due to colon being 3x better than kemo who couldn't pick up a stunt to save his life). run game a little disappointing, but that could be because of haley's blocking schemes being something new to learn

Doutbtful on the latter. Generally the OC will have plays in mind and the OL coach will draw up the blocking. Blocking the same run play vs a 3-4 team is different than blocking 4-3 team. The defenders line up in different gaps generally.

Again, the revolving door of injuries lends to the issues. Think that we actually saw Kelvin Beachum at RT already this season and it tells you its been an injured group.

BKAnthem
10-05-2012, 12:35 PM
I'm going to give him the end of next season...Adams should be NFL ready, Decastro will be healed, and Gibert will hopefully get his act together...

Steelersfan87
10-05-2012, 05:33 PM
I'm going to give him the end of next season...Adams should be NFL ready, Decastro will be healed, and Gibert will hopefully get his act together...

I think this is fair.

Brett Cottrell
10-05-2012, 05:50 PM
Watching the Pittsburgh O-Line is tough...real tough. I think they'll get better as the season goes and also as Haley gets more comfortable with what they can and can't do.

Hawaii 5-0
10-05-2012, 06:05 PM
i think he may have..over coached, kemo.....:noidea:

what did Kugler try to do, get Kemo to learn how to spell his name correctly? :wink02:

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-05-2012, 08:58 PM
I'm going to give him the end of next season...Adams should be NFL ready, Decastro will be healed, and Gibert will hopefully get his act together...

I honestly think things will look better on the O line before the end of the season. Adams needs experience at RT before starting at LT. Colon will improve, Gilbert needs to avoid injury. If Decastro comes back I will be amazed....but hes here for a long time.

GBMelBlount
10-05-2012, 11:17 PM
I honestly think things will look better on the O line before the end of the season.

Adams needs experience at RT before starting at LT. Colon will improve, Gilbert needs to avoid injury. If Decastro comes back I will be amazed....but hes here for a long time.

Agreed...although arguably there is only one way to go from here.

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-06-2012, 12:26 PM
Agreed...although arguably there is only one way to go from here.

Please don't say that. We had to play Beachum last week and a line of Adams, Colon, Legursky, Foster, Beachum could happen if the 3 seemingly injury prone starters get banged up.

teegre
10-06-2012, 01:33 PM
Please don't say that. We had to play Beachum last week and a line of Adams, Colon, Legursky, Foster, Beachum could happen if the 3 seemingly injury prone starters get banged up.

Adams Foster Legursky Beachum Heath

Sleep well. :wink02:

BKAnthem
10-06-2012, 01:56 PM
Question...Ryan Lee looked better than Beachum in Pre season...why isn't he on the active roster?

Hawaii 5-0
10-06-2012, 02:34 PM
Question...Ryan Lee looked better than Beachum in Pre season...why isn't he on the active roster?

most likely because the Steelers figured they could stash Ryan Lee on the
PS while thinking that Kelvin Beachum might get claimed by another team if we didn't keep him on the 53-man roster.

Steelersfan87
10-06-2012, 11:17 PM
Beachum also has more versatility. If Lee were on the roster instead of Beachum, the Steelers would have had to move Foster over to tackle and put Lee in at guard when Gilbert left the game against the Raiders.

Hawaii 5-0
10-07-2012, 07:39 PM
maybe Coach Kugs could review this week what constitutes holding with Willie Colon...

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-07-2012, 11:54 PM
maybe Coach Kugs could review this week what constitutes holding with Willie Colon...

Yeah, I cant believe that a veteran NFL lineman gets his hands outside the defenders frame so much. Its an easy call for any ref that its a holding penalty.

tony hipchest
10-08-2012, 01:02 AM
Steelers Notebook: Coach Kugler, Mendenhall boost offensive line




By Ray Fittipaldo / Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Just about everyone with an opinion on the Steelers voiced their displeasure with the performance of the offensive line the first month of the season. The Steelers ranked last in the NFL in rushing offense entering Sunday's game against the Eagles with a 2.6 yards per carry average.

The players are used to hearing scathing criticism from fans, but during the off week they heard it from someone with an opinion that really matters.

Offensive line coach Sean Kugler called out his players behind closed doors, and they responded with their best effort of the season in the 16-14 victory at Heinz Field.

"Our coach asked for it," right guard Ramon Foster said. "When coach Kugler has his credibility on the line, we have to make it happen for him. It was good to finally click."

The Steelers rushed for 136 yards and 4.4 yards per carry. They totaled 195 yards on the ground in the first three games.

The running game was particularly effective in the second half. They had 96 rushing yards in the final two quarters. Of those yards, 63 came on the final two drives, including 26 on the final drive that led to the winning field goal by Shaun Suisham.

"We just knew we had a good rhythm," left guard Willie Colon said. "We felt we were starting to wear them out up front. They were trying to be cheap shot artists, doing things after the whistle. It was about us keeping our cool, digging it out and fighting."

Foster and Colon said the return of running back Rashard Mendenhall played a big role in the success of the run game. Mendenhall had 84 yards on 14 carries, including a 13-yard touchdown, the only touchdown of the game for the Steelers.

"I think [Mendenhall] did a great job of finding the hole and hitting it," Colon said. "He didn't second-guess anything. He read it well. When he got holes he hit them. Just happy he's back with us."

Said Foster: "It was a breath of fresh air to have him out there."

The line also protected quarterback Ben Roethlisberger well. Roethlisberger was not sacked and threw for 207 yards.


Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/steelers-notebook-coach-kugler-mendenhall-boost-offensive-line-656656/#ixzz28gGIbfmX

ricardisimo
10-08-2012, 02:26 AM
... If Mendenhall has any form, I see him rushing for 70 yards on sunday.
As usual you were wrong, Gonzo. He had 81 yards. :drink:

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-08-2012, 11:01 AM
As usual you were wrong, Gonzo. He had 81 yards. :drink:

Yeah I know. Good thing Mike Wallace doesnt know where to line up on the field and he had that 22 yard run brought back. :wink02: I'd have been WAY off.

zsheik22
10-08-2012, 02:41 PM
Gave up 0 sacks yesterday to a team that has the most sacks since the time it became a stat.


With the injuries we have.... Seems pretty damned good. I would rather have the holding penalty if the hit on Ben is inevitable. At least he wont be eating dirt and getting banged up.