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Hawaii 5-0
10-18-2012, 08:40 PM
A look at the Steelers’ offense and how Todd Haley and Big Ben are getting along…

by Ian Rapoport

http://nfldotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/steelers-fan.jpg?w=199&h=300

Steelers fans… not happy. (Associated Press)

Through six weeks of the season, the Steelers are banged up, beaten up and 2-3. All, of course, is not well. That road loss to the Titans only underscored the issues. The defense is hurting, the offense hasn’t found its rhythm, they are currently looking up at the Bengals and Ravens in the AFC North.

Statistically, just like actually, it has been a struggle for the offense. Even with a talented quarterback like Ben Roethlisberger and WRs like Antonio Brown and Mike Wallace, they are ranked just 17th in scoring with 23.2 points and 16th in total offense with 360 yards. In other words, mediocre.

Now, there are some issues to point to as far as why the unit is inconsistent. Offensive line injuries have crushed them, and you can’t overlook that. Wallace’s holdout didn’t help. Neither have the injury issues of RB Rashard Mendenhall. But still, it is the responsibility of new offensive coordinator Todd Haley to produce, and it has yet to come together. Of course, the Haley-Roethlisberger relationship is one we have been discussing all season.

So, let’s discuss it.

I am told that the Haley-Roethlisberger relationship is what everyone expected. It is not great. They have butted heads. We’ve read about the much-publicized incident where Big Ben used last year’s signals, and that didn’t go over well. It also was indicative of a QB who didn’t trust or feel comfortable with the current system.

Before we continue the discussion on Haley — and everyone knew beforehand that he is as gruff as they come — let’s take a step back. How did the Steelers end up in this situation with an OC who clashes with the QB after Roethlisberger and Bruce Arians got along so well?

I’m told Steelers coach Mike Tomlin wanted to hire running backs coach Kirby Wilson as his offensive coordinator after last season. That was his intention. Yet Wilson was involved in a tragic incident with a fire, and no one could predict how his health would rebound. Sad to say, but the team had to essentially move on in its search. In fact, Wilson (the RBs coach, still) wears bandages from the incident.

While Wilson dealt with his health, Tomlin had to act. And so, on Feb. 7, he hired Haley. Tomlin knew there was nobody better available, thanks to Wilson’s situation. While Tomlin didn’t love Haley’s interview — it wasn’t great — he felt obligated to make the move. After all, Haley might be gone if he waited for Wilson to improve.

There is also the thought, I’m told, that Tomlin felt pressure from above, notably from Art Rooney II, to run a slightly tighter ship this year. Haley, who is intense, would theoretically help that. The issue, though, is that Big Ben and Haley have had their disagreements. With Wilson or Arians, Roethlisberger just meshed well. Thus far, it hasn’t happened with Haley.

All of which makes me wonder… If the trend of the Steelers’ offense continues, might we see Tomlin next year eventually promote Wilson, hiring the guy he always wanted to hire anyway? Could it be a one-year stay for Haley? It’s all up in the air.

http://blogs.nfl.com/2012/10/18/a-look-at-the-steelers-offense-and-how-todd-haley-and-big-ben-are-getting-along/

Atlanta Dan
10-18-2012, 08:57 PM
A look at the Steelers’ offense and how Todd Haley and Big Ben are getting along…

by Ian Rapoport

http://nfldotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/steelers-fan.jpg?w=199&h=300

Steelers fans… not happy. (Associated Press)

Through six weeks of the season, the Steelers are banged up, beaten up and 2-3. All, of course, is not well. That road loss to the Titans only underscored the issues. The defense is hurting, the offense hasn’t found its rhythm, they are currently looking up at the Bengals and Ravens in the AFC North.

Statistically, just like actually, it has been a struggle for the offense. Even with a talented quarterback like Ben Roethlisberger and WRs like Antonio Brown and Mike Wallace, they are ranked just 17th in scoring with 23.2 points and 16th in total offense with 360 yards. In other words, mediocre.

Now, there are some issues to point to as far as why the unit is inconsistent. Offensive line injuries have crushed them, and you can’t overlook that. Wallace’s holdout didn’t help. Neither have the injury issues of RB Rashard Mendenhall. But still, it is the responsibility of new offensive coordinator Todd Haley to produce, and it has yet to come together. Of course, the Haley-Roethlisberger relationship is one we have been discussing all season.

So, let’s discuss it.

I am told that the Haley-Roethlisberger relationship is what everyone expected. It is not great. They have butted heads. We’ve read about the much-publicized incident where Big Ben used last year’s signals, and that didn’t go over well. It also was indicative of a QB who didn’t trust or feel comfortable with the current system.

Before we continue the discussion on Haley — and everyone knew beforehand that he is as gruff as they come — let’s take a step back. How did the Steelers end up in this situation with an OC who clashes with the QB after Roethlisberger and Bruce Arians got along so well?

I’m told Steelers coach Mike Tomlin wanted to hire running backs coach Kirby Wilson as his offensive coordinator after last season. That was his intention. Yet Wilson was involved in a tragic incident with a fire, and no one could predict how his health would rebound. Sad to say, but the team had to essentially move on in its search. In fact, Wilson (the RBs coach, still) wears bandages from the incident.

While Wilson dealt with his health, Tomlin had to act. And so, on Feb. 7, he hired Haley. Tomlin knew there was nobody better available, thanks to Wilson’s situation. While Tomlin didn’t love Haley’s interview — it wasn’t great — he felt obligated to make the move. After all, Haley might be gone if he waited for Wilson to improve.

There is also the thought, I’m told, that Tomlin felt pressure from above, notably from Art Rooney II, to run a slightly tighter ship this year. Haley, who is intense, would theoretically help that. The issue, though, is that Big Ben and Haley have had their disagreements. With Wilson or Arians, Roethlisberger just meshed well. Thus far, it hasn’t happened with Haley.

All of which makes me wonder… If the trend of the Steelers’ offense continues, might we see Tomlin next year eventually promote Wilson, hiring the guy he always wanted to hire anyway? Could it be a one-year stay for Haley? It’s all up in the air.

http://blogs.nfl.com/2012/10/18/a-look-at-the-steelers-offense-and-how-todd-haley-and-big-ben-are-getting-along/

Another "reporter" blogging from his basement in his pajamas

He may be right but there is nothing here but a cut and paste of public information - I can think of a number of posters here who could put together the same report with better quotes - Rapoport forgot to throw out when Ben said Haley and he butted heads in Denver

Darkstorm05
10-18-2012, 09:23 PM
This is a non-story. With the Thursday game it's been a slow Steeler news week, so they're stirring the shit pot just for the sake of having something to blab about. A few wins will clear this up.

steelfury02
10-18-2012, 09:31 PM
Journalistic Integrity 101: When the only indication of author's sources is "I am told" and "we have read," don't trust it.

Not saying everything is just grand - but the media is officially steam rolling the Steelers right now, especially since they learned that "Big Ben left practice early derp a derp."

TRH
10-19-2012, 08:24 AM
Journalistic Integrity 101: When the only indication of author's sources is "I am told" and "we have read," don't trust it.

Not saying everything is just grand - but the media is officially steam rolling the Steelers right now, especially since they learned that "Big Ben left practice early derp a derp."



of course. Thats just the "blogger" making things up and attempting to offer his own opinion up as fact. Blogging is a real threat to legitimate sports journalism.
Everything i've heard and seen leads me to believe that they're getting along just fine.....if anything, much, much better than expected.

maddog78
10-19-2012, 08:37 AM
What was Kirby Wilson's resume? Coach of an average group of backs?

teegre
10-19-2012, 09:07 AM
What was Kirby Wilson's resume? Coach of an average group of backs?

I don't know about his résumé and/or qualifications, but one sportscenter anchor said that he was "on fire."

[Too soon?]

Darkstorm05
10-19-2012, 09:25 AM
I don't know about his résumé and/or qualifications, but one sportscenter anchor said that he was "on fire."

[Too soon?]

Yes, too soon. That didn't stop me from laughing, though.

steelfury02
10-19-2012, 09:31 AM
Kirby's on Fiiiiiire!
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTIwGPar3XwDufarnsXYLT5YO80GyXrd e9yFuvzoGKUTu4k3_1jo4HTCp5-PA

FanSince72
10-19-2012, 09:46 AM
You can deny it all you want but I think it's pretty obvious that there seems to be a conflict of interest between Ben and Haley and that's reflected in the level of play.

When a new coach or system is brought in, there will always be an adjustment period. During this time there will of course be mistakes and miscues but if the overall feeling is cooperative, you will tend to see much conversation between coach and QB along with a fair amount of "arm-around-the-shoulder" moments where things are explained and discussed.

I've seen none of that.

What I see are two ego's clashing with one another and Ben's ego seems to be the dominant one. I think he has a right to that since he's been to three SB's while Haley has just "been around".
Understandably, Haley wants to be respected and wants Ben and Co. to do what he tells them to do. But Ben - and I suspect more than a few other offensive players as well - see things differently and perhaps feel that they have been through enough things together to have a better handle on what will and will not work and resent an "outsider's" input, especially from someone who has had only minor success as an OC and even less as a HC. Maybe Ben was spoiled by Arians, but I think they had much respect for each other and there is definitely a fatherly / nurturing aspect to Arians that Ben responded to and which does not exist in Haley.

I'm not suggesting that Haley hasn't any good ideas or solid game plans, but rather that he either does not express them well or worse yet does not "click" with enough players for it to matter.

You can say all you want about "who's the boss?" and all that, but when it comes to a relationship such as that which exists between a coach and a player the "My-way-or-the-highway" approach rarely works and is especially toxic when preceded by a relationship that was more like father / son than coach / player.

I also think that Ben feels the he should be allowed to be more "in charge" of what happens on the field (Ala Peyton Manning) and I think he feels as if he's earned that right (something I believe as well).
But Haley's ego simply won't allow that and I think that's the essence of their relationship and a possible reason why, after a full preseason and now almost half a regular season, the offense hasn't yet shown signs of being pointed in any particular direction.

Being the coach of a pro QB - especially one with Ben's accomplishments, isn't like that of a typical boss / employee and like it or not someone like Ben needs to be coddled a bit and Haley is simply not the warm and fuzzy type that Arians was. I think that as long as Haley is here there may be limited progress but we'll never see that "One for all" type of thing because Haley simply doesn't have the personality that might inspire that kind of togetherness.

maddog78
10-19-2012, 10:00 AM
You can deny it all you want but I think it's pretty obvious that there seems to be a conflict of interest between Ben and Haley and that's reflected in the level of play.

We're scoring 3 pts more per game than last year, Ben's QB rating is 10 points higher than last year, and Ben's been sacked and hit far less than last year.

Haley's effect on the offense has been nothing but positive so far.

FanSince72
10-19-2012, 10:30 AM
We're scoring 3 pts more per game than last year, Ben's QB rating is 10 points higher than last year, and Ben's been sacked and hit far less than last year.

Haley's effect on the offense has been nothing but positive so far.

Ah yes, when faced with reality, trot out the STATISTICS (insert angelic choir voices here).

Here's a stat: The top two team in each division (with the exception of maybe three teams) have offenses that have outscored ours by twenty points or more so far.
Hell, even Tampa Bay has scored more points than we have!

If you really believe that our offense is operating at anything even close to what it's potential is, then you must believe in the tooth fairy. Ben may be "doing his job" and some of the new schemes may be bolstering his personal numbers a bit, but there's no harmony here right now and a 2-3 record tends to support that thinking.

maddog78
10-19-2012, 10:49 AM
Ah yes, when faced with reality, trot out the STATISTICS (insert angelic choir voices here).

Here's a stat: The top two team in each division (with the exception of maybe three teams) have offenses that have outscored ours by twenty points or more so far.
Hell, even Tampa Bay has scored more points than we have!

If you really believe that our offense is operating at anything even close to what it's potential is, then you must believe in the tooth fairy. Ben may be "doing his job" and some of the new schemes may be bolstering his personal numbers a bit, but there's no harmony here right now and a 2-3 record tends to support that thinking.

What reality? Your opinion? You wrote "I think" seven times and cited no facts, just suppositions and hypotheses based on the fact that you don't see Haley and Ben chatting it up on the sidelines for the maybe 2 minutes of coverage the sidelines gets during a 3.5 hour broadcast. Complete and utter bullocks.

And, um, do you realize that the teams that have outscored us by twenty points have played one more game?

:rofl:

The 2-3 record is largely on the defense, who can't hold fourth quarter leads and is giving up 25 points a game despite the offense ranking #2 in time of possession. I would argue the offense is overachieving given the crappy nature of the OL and the injury situation.

tony hipchest
10-19-2012, 11:27 AM
statistics are real! one can mourn the loss of arians all they want but the botton line is steelers PPG has gone UP- #FACT!

the proof is in the pudding. regardless of how a fat blogger feels sitting in his basement in his underwear feels in terms of them "getting along"...

better than arians! :danceshout:

teegre
10-19-2012, 11:28 AM
BB is the best in the league on third downs: like 73% completion rate. Similarly, PITT's third down conversion rate is the best in the league. And, I forget which game, but BB wasn't sacked in a game for the first time in nearly five years.

If Wallace doesn't drop, AB doesn't fumble, and Cotchery doesn't fall, BB has (at least) three more TDs... and two more wins.

I'd say that Haley is having a great affect on BB.

tony hipchest
10-19-2012, 11:43 AM
BB is the best in the league on third downs: like 73% completion rate. Similarly, PITT's third down conversion rate is the best in the league. And, I forget which game, but BB wasn't sacked in a game for the first time in nearly five years.

."Thats your opinion. Fact is, Ben was twice as better on third downs and completion percentage last year under Arians. Infact there are plenty of games where Ben was sacked -1 (negative) times. I think Bruce was a GREAT coach, therefore stats dont matter."

:rolleyes:

getting back to reality... steelers had more losses last season under arians (5 including playoffs), than they have this year under haley (3). :wave:

tanda10506
10-19-2012, 01:10 PM
It is a fact that the offense is better without Arians, getting rid of him was the best thing we could have done this off-season, but it's also a fact that we are mediocre. We are 17th in points, so while I'm glad we got rid of Arians, I'd like to see A LOT more. Too much talent on this offense for 17th.

Atlanta Dan
10-19-2012, 01:18 PM
Too much talent on this offense for 17th.

When healthy - the starting running back is banged up again and 3 out of the 5 starting offensive linemen ae hurt - OL once again is a mess, which has to hurt production

maddog78
10-19-2012, 01:22 PM
When healthy - the starting running back is banged up again and 3 out of the 5 starting offensive linemen ae hurt - OL once again is a mess, which has to hurt production

This. Without Mendy, we don't have a starter-capable RB. The line was average to start with, it's poor with everyone hurt.

FanSince72
10-19-2012, 02:46 PM
What reality? Your opinion? You wrote "I think" seven times and cited no facts, just suppositions and hypotheses based on the fact that you don't see Haley and Ben chatting it up on the sidelines for the maybe 2 minutes of coverage the sidelines gets during a 3.5 hour broadcast. Complete and utter bullocks.

And, um, do you realize that the teams that have outscored us by twenty points have played one more game?

:rofl:

The 2-3 record is largely on the defense, who can't hold fourth quarter leads and is giving up 25 points a game despite the offense ranking #2 in time of possession. I would argue the offense is overachieving given the crappy nature of the OL and the injury situation.

Yes, that's my opinion.

Just as anything you have to say would be YOUR opinion.

That's all this board is -- a bunch of OPINIONS.

I am entitled to express whatever opinion I may have and you are just as entitled to agree or disagree with it as you see fit.
There are no experts here and no one here is currently playing for the Steelers nor is anyone affiliated with the Steelers other than as a fan.
So no one here "knows" any more than I or anyone else does about what may or may not REALLY be happening inside the Steelers locker room.

So whatever anyone here says,it's ALL opinion and nothing more.

Rotorhead
10-19-2012, 03:04 PM
Well, except for the fact that we are avging more ppg than last year, sacks are down, we have the best 3rd down percentage in the league and its higher than last years, redzone eff is far better than last year . . . Etc etc, those are all facts and not opinions.

fansince'76
10-19-2012, 03:11 PM
redzone eff is far better than last year . . .

No, it's not.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/red-zone-scoring-pct

teegre
10-19-2012, 03:14 PM
When healthy - the starting running back is banged up again and 3 out of the 5 starting offensive linemen ae hurt - OL once again is a mess, which has to hurt production

This... and if I might add (something that I've posted in other threads, but bears iteration):

If Wallace doesn't drop and/or AB doesn't fumble and/or Cotchery doesn't fall down, the Steelers have an extra 1-3 (or 5) TDs... and probably, two more wins.

Once the WRs start playing up to their talent level, this offense will be SCARY!!!

teegre
10-19-2012, 03:16 PM
No, it's not.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/red-zone-scoring-pct

I do not believe that that counts FGs (which are way up).

Suisham is money:tt02: ...well... except from 54 yards. :banging:

FanSince72
10-19-2012, 05:26 PM
Well, except for the fact that we are avging more ppg than last year, sacks are down, we have the best 3rd down percentage in the league and its higher than last years, redzone eff is far better than last year . . . Etc etc, those are all facts and not opinions.

True.

And yet none of those facts has anything whatsoever to do with the subject of the article which is that Ben and Haley don't get along and that there's friction between them.

Ben's numbers have nothing to do with it.

Ben's numbers are better, but the O-line is healthier than it has been in the past and perhaps Haley has even added a few wrinkles or changed a few things that have contributed to those numbers. It could even be that Ben is doing things on his own and having some success in an effort to prove that he doesn't need Haley or that he's doing these things in spite of Haley.

I have no idea whether any of that is true or not but I do believe that Ben is not happy with Haley and that's what the article dealt with.

maddog78
10-19-2012, 05:32 PM
Yes, that's my opinion.

Just as anything you have to say would be YOUR opinion.

That's all this board is -- a bunch of OPINIONS.

I am entitled to express whatever opinion I may have and you are just as entitled to agree or disagree with it as you see fit.
There are no experts here and no one here is currently playing for the Steelers nor is anyone affiliated with the Steelers other than as a fan.
So no one here "knows" any more than I or anyone else does about what may or may not REALLY be happening inside the Steelers locker room.

So whatever anyone here says,it's ALL opinion and nothing more.

Bzzzt. I cited statistical evidence that they're better. There's also the eyeball test. Do you doubt that Ben is getting hit much less and using all his receivers? Do you doubt we're scoring more than last year despite the evidence?

YOU called your opinions "facts" when you tried to rebut my argument. Not me.

maddog78
10-19-2012, 05:34 PM
True.

And yet none of those facts has anything whatsoever to do with the subject of the article which is that Ben and Haley don't get along and that there's friction between them.

Ben's numbers have nothing to do with it.

Ben's numbers are better, but the O-line is healthier than it has been in the past and perhaps Haley has even added a few wrinkles or changed a few things that have contributed to those numbers. It could even be that Ben is doing things on his own and having some success in an effort to prove that he doesn't need Haley or that he's doing these things in spite of Haley.

I have no idea whether any of that is true or not but I do believe that Ben is not happy with Haley and that's what the article dealt with.

The article was speculation, and you tried to parlay it into it showing on the field, when nothing could be further from the truth.

And by the way, don't you have the Browns to prepare for, Bruce?

Atlanta Dan
10-19-2012, 05:46 PM
No question the media keeps stirring the pot on what they hope is a Ben-Haley blow-up even if there is little to suppport it happening

This from Jason La Canfora today on CBS Sportsline

If Pittsburgh can't get it going offensively -- and Mike Wallace needs to re-emerge as a consistent vertical threat to make that happen -- then some in the organization fear a sideline showdown between quarterback and coordinator at some point.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/20582884/week-7-game-rankings-ravenstexas-skinsgiants-jetspats-and-thats-just-the-appetizer

FanSince72
10-19-2012, 05:47 PM
The article was speculation, and you tried to parlay it into it showing on the field, when nothing could be further from the truth.

And by the way, don't you have the Browns to prepare for, Bruce?

Really?

What team have you been watching?

Are you suggesting that this offense is something that's really "clicking"?
It does from time to time but I'd hardly think of it as anything special just yet.

Yes, we're averaging 3 points better than last year but as I said, we also have a more stable O-line and no major injuries at the skill positions - something we had a fair amount of last year, so you could argue that those 3 points might have happened anyway even if Haley wasn't here. And as I also said, Haley may very well be responsible for those 3 extra points because it's also true that someone doesn't have to like someone in order to understand what they're trying to do or asking others to do.

As for showing it on the field, that doesn't seem to be the case, but is that because of or in spite of Haley? I watch whenever Ben comes to the sideline and I watch his overall body language and the way he talks with Haley and I think it's pretty obvious that he tolerates him as much as he has to but that's about it.

When BA was here, it was quite different. It was more like watching two close friends or even a father and son (like BA is doing now with Luck in Indy) and I think that's what Ben misses. Whether that means anything as far as field production goes is anyone's guess, but speculative or not, I think the article points out something that I believe is true.

Bayz101
10-19-2012, 05:54 PM
Lots of "I've been told" and "I've heard" but absolutely NO quotes of significance. Bullshit article.

Hawaii 5-0
10-19-2012, 05:57 PM
we also have a more stable O-line

Really?

Atlanta Dan
10-19-2012, 06:03 PM
I watch whenever Ben comes to the sideline and I watch his overall body language and the way he talks with Haley and I think it's pretty obvious that he tolerates him as much as he has to but that's about it.

When BA was here, it was quite different. It was more like watching two close friends or even a father and son (like BA is doing now with Luck in Indy) and I think that's what Ben misses. Whether that means anything as far as field production goes is anyone's guess, but speculative or not, I think the article points out something that I believe is true.

BA and Ben being "father and son" may be spot on - "Dad" was willing to let his "son" never do his homework and run around all night as long as the "son" always cried when the child support agency tried to take him away because "Dad" was not doing a good job of raising his "child" and ran the risk of getting him killed because "son" liked to play in traffic and "Dad" figured it was OK since his "son" was getting hit by cars a lot but had not been killed yet

We are not talking about Bill Walsh getting run out of Cincinnati by Paul Brown here - the offense was consistently mediocre and was based upon a style that literally was crippling the QB

Fire Arians
10-19-2012, 06:32 PM
no they're not, they're plotting to assassinate eachother as we speak! ben and haley get along, that's nonsense!!!!11 matter of fact, ben is begging to get traded to indy so he can be with his buddy arians again!

FanSince72
10-19-2012, 06:39 PM
Really?

Yes, really.

Do you remember last year?
Ben was basically introducing himself to his linemen each week.

I know we're a little banged up now, but it's hardly as bad as it was last year.

FanSince72
10-19-2012, 06:42 PM
BA and Ben being "father and son" may be spot on - "Dad" was willing to let his "son" never do his homework and run around all night as long as the "son" always cried when the child support agency tried to take him away because "Dad" was not doing a good job of raising his "child" and ran the risk of getting him killed because "son" liked to play in traffic and "Dad" figured it was OK since his "son" was getting hit by cars a lot but had not been killed yet

We are not talking about Bill Walsh getting run out of Cincinnati by Paul Brown here - the offense was consistently mediocre and was based upon a style that literally was crippling the QB

And Ben was playing in traffic because the fence that was supposed to keep him safe in his yard kept falling apart week after week.

The fence is more stable now and it's not the old rotted one we had last year. Granted, there are still a few slats missing, but not enough to allow Ben out onto the road unless he deliberately tries to run around it.

cubanstogie
10-19-2012, 06:56 PM
Slightly off topic but I think a lot of fans see what they wan't to see. BA was hated so much around here by a few that no matter what happens this years offense is better. Thats what they wan't to see. Ben has been playing great, not making as many mistakes, but they have much less big plays and the running game is averaging 3 yards a carry. It is early, but at this point not a big increase in productivity. Big difference is the aging D rebounded last year after getting trounced by the Ratbirds, I don't see how they turn it around with all the injuries. Offense is going to have to score more and be more aggressive kind of like the Pats did in years past. Their offense was on the field running out the clock instead of D making stops like Steelers of old.

Hawaii 5-0
10-19-2012, 07:42 PM
Yes, really.

Do you remember last year?
Ben was basically introducing himself to his linemen each week.

I know we're a little banged up now, but it's hardly as bad as it was last year.

I know we used 25 different OL combinations last year, but we are on our way to surpassing that mark this year. we may have the same guys starting the game, but they never all finish the game together.

we've had Marcus Gilbert play LT and RT, Mike Adams at LT and RT, Ramon Foster at RG and RT and Doug Legursky at C, LG and RG...

maddog78
10-19-2012, 11:22 PM
Really?

We have the appearance of one. Know why? Because Haley has convinced Ben to not be a hero every play. Singles are better than strikeouts going for the home run.

Also, designed screens. How many of those did we run with Arians?

Ben is playing smarter and it shows, both in production and in his health. Philly sacked him 9 times and hit him 2x that last time we played them with Arians, in a Super Bowl year no less.

They barely touched him two weeks ago.

The problem with this team is on defense, not offense. If we were three points worse than the 14 PPG we gave up our last SB year, we'd be 5-0, not 3-2. This defense does not have to be great, just average. So far, they're just bad.

Don't give me 4th in yards per game - that's because they're on the field less than only one other team in the league.

25 PPG allowed is unacceptable.

ricardisimo
10-20-2012, 12:09 AM
What reality? Your opinion? You wrote "I think" seven times and cited no facts, just suppositions and hypotheses based on the fact that you don't see Haley and Ben chatting it up on the sidelines for the maybe 2 minutes of coverage the sidelines gets during a 3.5 hour broadcast. Complete and utter bullocks.

And, um, do you realize that the teams that have outscored us by twenty points have played one more game?

:rofl:

The 2-3 record is largely on the defense, who can't hold fourth quarter leads and is giving up 25 points a game despite the offense ranking #2 in time of possession. I would argue the offense is overachieving given the crappy nature of the OL and the injury situation.
FanSince has already established in numerous threads that his opinion is reality, everything else is a distraction.

EbonySteel86
10-20-2012, 04:32 AM
If Ike didn't suck so bad, we would be 5-0. Nothing wring with this offence that a few healthier bodies can't fix. Keep doing what u doing Haley, I got your back!

Rockonsteel
10-20-2012, 08:56 AM
For the most part, Haley has improved the offense. Not leaps and bounds, but improvement nonetheless. Points are up, if only slightly(could be better if not for poor execution and dumb penalties). Sacks are down significantly. Ben's taking less hits. Heath and RBs involved in passing game. So, for the most part he's been ok. I was hoping for more than ok. I do have a couple of qualms with the Haley way.

First, he has taken all the air out of the ball. We went from BA dropping back 7 steps on every play, to 6 yd. patterns on every play. I don't understand why we can't find a guy who knows how to mix it up, instead of one extreme or the other. The short, quick passing game is fine, but we have the weapons to air it out, so that needs to be mixed in with the dink and dunk stuff.

Second, he hasn't yet figured out creative ways to gets Rainey in space. Everytime he comes in the game, it's either a toss sweep from singleback formation or a telegraphed swing pass in the flat that the defense is waiting for. It seems a bit predictable. Just doesn't seem to be much creativity involved in trying to get him the ball in space/mismatch situations.

And lastly, he seems to be trying to force the run. A lot of first down run calls, is part of what stagnates this offense. A few more first down passes, play action and screens thrown into the mix, on first down, would make this offense much more explosive. Running on first downs, sets up constant 2nd and 8 or 9, which is part of the reason our T.O.P. is so high. Not because we control the clock with the run game, but because we reduce our YPP when we run the ball, meaning we need more plays to score than a lot of other teams.

Don't get me wrong, I was the first one calling for BA's head, and was glad to see him go. I just wish Haley would loosen up the reigns and let it fly a bit more. We have the horses to do that. I'm sure Ben feels the same way.

Rockon

FanSince72
10-20-2012, 12:19 PM
FanSince has already established in numerous threads that his opinion is reality, everything else is a distraction.

No, that's not true.

That's actually the problem with the Arians-bashers; they see him as they want to see him regardless of the fact that his record is quite good.

See, that's the problem with statistics; they don't predict anything, they just record what's already happened and in that sense, the statistics show that Arians did a pretty good job.
Under Arians, we had five winning seasons in a row -- four of them with double-digit wins; we went to 2 Super Bowls and won one of them.
Also, in the five years under BA, the offense averaged 22.6 ppg. (The NFL average for the same years was just 21.8 ppg)

Not too shabby.
Maybe not HOF numbers, but he certainly didn't suck.

Is Haley "The Guy"?

It's way too soon to tell because there's no body of work to review yet (no statistics).

When Haley gets some years under his belt, then he can be measured against Arians in terms of overall success. Until then it's impossible to say. He's only been on the sidelines for five games so it would be foolish to try to determine whether or not he's better or worse than Arians.

I've seen some things this year that seem promising but overall I see an offense that's operating far below its potential and if the OC can be blamed for such things, then Haley should have to be asked why this is so.

Atlanta Dan
10-21-2012, 08:44 AM
Oh my - this column in the Trib-Review today has some quotes from Ben that do appear to indicate some issues with Haley

Ben Roethlisberger seemed surprised when reporters crowded his locker Friday, seeking word on his heavily taped right ankle.

Roethlisberger had practiced without issue. He didn’t think the ankle was a big deal. Early in a two-minute drill with his inquisitors, he addressed a much-bigger deal: The Steelers’ chronic inability to roll up lofty point totals....

Things got more interesting when the crowd dispersed. I asked Roethlisberger if the offense has much room for “expansion.” As in more big plays.

“Haley’s offense is not a big-play offense,” he said. “It’s kind of a dink-and-dunk offense.”

Hmmm. That was the first time I’d heard Roethlisberger use the d-and-d phrase. When others had, he’d brushed it aside.

Our next exchange was more eye-opening.

Me: “Is there room for more quick strikes?”

Ben: “We did that last week (82-yard pass to Mike Wallace).”

Me: “Right, but you never went back to it.”

Ben: “There’s a guy calling the plays. That’s on him.”

That’s a quote sure to be repeated, but I can tell you Roethlisberger did not utter it with any venom. And he quickly elaborated. Or backtracked. I’m not sure which.

“Sometimes, we’ll call something long, and it’s just not there,” he said. “For us, the big thing is that when we get into the red zone, we don’t get complicated. We need to finish drives.”...

Joe Starkey then proceeds to note the offense this year is as mediocre as it was under BA

One way or another, the Steelers have to score more. Starting in Cincinnati. My sense is that removing Ben’s shackles would be a start. But maybe it’s finding a run game. Or maybe the rinky-dink method will bore the Bengals to death.

Did you know that, since the beginning of the 2010 season, the Steelers have cracked the 30-point barrier seven times?

For context, the Mark Sanchez-led Jets have done it 10 times.

The bugaboos of the Bruce Arians offense — which I thought was ready to explode before Roethlisberger’s injury last season — remain unfixed: The Steelers still don’t score enough (17th in the league), convert in the red zone (18th in touchdown percentage) or run with consistency (32nd in pertinent categories)....

The Steelers possess the rarest of commodities: a Hall of Fame quarterback in his prime. They have provided him with a multitude of weapons. It really is time to score points.

http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/2793755-85/offense-roethlisberger-steelers-ben-quarterback-score-season-starkey-haley-afc#axzz29sACIB3E

IMO this team is going to come unglued if it loses tonight

maddog78
10-21-2012, 09:34 AM
Joe Snarkey [sic] is always digging for an angle. The offense needs to pick it up after last week's performance, but if the defense is going to allow the Oakland's and Tennessee's of the league to chew them up, perhaps Joe can redirect some of his venom to that side of the ball, as well.

jb500ex
10-21-2012, 09:49 AM
Joe Snarkey [sic] is always digging for an angle. The offense needs to pick it up after last week's performance, but if the defense is going to allow the Oakland's and Tennessee's of the league to chew them up, perhaps Joe can redirect some of his venom to that side of the ball, as well.

yes but that doesnt change the fact we dont score enough and the offense isnt good enough in the new nfl. 17th in the league proves that

GoFor7
10-21-2012, 10:22 AM
Dink-and-dunk is okay in some situations, but when you have a QB with a big-time arm and three speedy receivers you need to rip that ball downfield a little more often than they have been doing. It was assumed that as long as the offense possessed the ball for long periods of time the defense would be really good because it would be well-rested. That assumption has turned out to be very wrong. The Steelers offense needs a new philosophy: score as quick as possible and as often as possible - don't be so focused on time of possession. The best way to take pressure off of a defense is to score more points.

teegre
10-21-2012, 11:05 AM
Dink-and-dunk is okay in some situations, but when you have a QB with a big-time arm and three speedy receivers you need to rip that ball downfield a little more often than they have been doing. It was assumed that as long as the offense possessed the ball for long periods of time the defense would be really good because it would be well-rested. That assumption has turned out to be very wrong. The Steelers offense needs a new philosophy: score as quick as possible and as often as possible - don't be so focused on time of possession. The best way to take pressure off of a defense is to score more points.

Or, continue to maintain time of possession, but FINISH drives: TDs instead if FGs.

Also, closing out games (converting that "final" third down, so that PITT's defense doesn't even have a chance to mess things up) would be nice.

steelfury02
10-21-2012, 12:34 PM
Arians or Haley aside, when an average at best QB (Sanchez) is scoring more over time over a HOF with a stable of weapons with 2 pro bowl receivers and the most underrated tight end in the league - that pisses me off more than anything

GoFor7
10-21-2012, 12:57 PM
Or, continue to maintain time of possession, but FINISH drives: TDs instead if FGs.

Also, closing out games (converting that "final" third down, so that PITT's defense doesn't even have a chance to mess things up) would be nice.

Not at the expense of underusing the deep pass.

teegre
10-21-2012, 01:24 PM
Not at the expense of underusing the deep pass.

Wasn't saying that they shouldn't use the deep pass. I'm saying that if I had to choose one thing for Haley to alter, it'd be to finish drives.

The team can still mix in deep passes... which can be solved by, well, simply passing deep more than once per game. (I agree: I'd like to see more.) But, I see the lack of finishing drives as the "main problem" right now.

Make sense?

Atlanta Dan
10-21-2012, 03:44 PM
Arians or Haley aside, when an average at best QB (Sanchez) is scoring more over time over a HOF with a stable of weapons with 2 pro bowl receivers and the most underrated tight end in the league - that pisses me off more than anything

Buffalo has put up 34 points against Tennessee in 3 quarters

Hawaii 5-0
10-21-2012, 04:16 PM
Buffalo has put up 34 points against Tennessee in 3 quarters

true, but the Titans won the game 35-34.

Atlanta Dan
10-21-2012, 04:20 PM
true, but the Titans won the game 35-34.

True that - maybe the Steelers D should be applauded for holding the Titans to 26 (7 of which were due to the blocked punt)?:chuckle:

FanSince72
10-21-2012, 05:24 PM
True that - maybe the Steelers D should be applauded for holding the Titans to 26 (7 of which were due to the blocked punt)?:chuckle:

So it's come to that?
Bragging rights over Buffalo?

OK, whatever works I guess...

We're better than the Bills!
We're better than the Bills!
We're better than the Bills!

C'mon everybody!

We're better than the Bills!
We're better than the Bills! :tt04::applaudit:

austinfrench76
10-21-2012, 06:00 PM
WWHHHOOOOO CAAARRRREEEESSS?!?!?!?! Play the damn game. They don;t have to like each other! Go Steelers! Ben and/or Todd - whatever gives us the win!

LVSteelersfan
10-21-2012, 06:12 PM
Yes, really.

Do you remember last year?
Ben was basically introducing himself to his linemen each week.

I know we're a little banged up now, but it's hardly as bad as it was last year.

What the heck are you talking about? Pouncey down. Gilbert down. Decastro down. You have got to be kidding. Legursky cannot block shit. He is the reason we got a punt kicked by someone who came right up the middle. This Oline has been just as much crap this year as it was last year. Get real.

LVSteelersfan
10-21-2012, 06:17 PM
BTW, Arians has won two games since he took over as HC of the Colts. That is as many wins as the Steelers have. Of course I hate Arians and they beat two crap teams. But he has two wins under his belt. Teams will be fighting over him next year. ; )

Atlanta Dan
10-21-2012, 06:24 PM
NBC stirs the pot in an interview with Tomlin - guess what a theme for tonight's game is going to be

Tomlin anticipates Roethlisberger-Haley incident, says it won’t be “catastrophic”

As the Steelers prepare to face the Bengals tonight and as quarterback Ben Roethlisberger tries to win the mob pre-emptively by periodically nudging offensive coordinator Todd Haley toward the undercarriage of the bus, coach Mike Tomlin concedes that an incident between the two men is inevitable.

“You made a transition this year from Bruce Arians to Todd Haley,” Bob Costas asks in an interview to be aired on NBC’s Football Night in America (7:00 p.m. ET). “Ben Roethlisberger told me before the first game against Denver, ‘Every coach, at some point, their temper starts to come out. But when it comes to that time, we’ll be able to deal with it and move on.’ Has that time come yet?”

“I don’t know,” Tomlin said. “I’m usually pretty busy when they get a little down time. I’ve always got guys on the grass, as we say in this business. I’m not worried about those interactions. If it hadn’t happened already, I’m sure at some point it will and it won’t be catastrophic. I’m sure we’ll all move on.”

Tomlin seems to endorse the philosophical shift that has resulted in Roethlisberger periodically grumbling about things like the “dink-and-dunk” nature of the offense. Asked by Costas whether the new offense is successfully reining in Roethlisberger, Tomlin said, “I think we’re doing a nice job, even in the midst of running the ball as poorly as we are, because we’re minimizing negative plays. And if you minimize the negative plays, that means your quarterback is upright. That’s one of the goals that we had here for this season, along with winning more games than we have to this point.”.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/10/21/tomlin-anticipates-roethlisberger-haley-incident-says-it-wont-be-catastrophic/

teegre
10-21-2012, 06:36 PM
BB's interview w/Costas:
Dink & dunk... yadda-yadda-yadda.... not getting sacked, and in turn, not injured... blah, blah, blah... will be available for the play-offs... derpa derka der... seventh SuperBowl... shizzle...

Who truly cares about the "small" differences??? BB is healthier, has a league-leading completion percentage, and is two converted third downs away from being 4-1. Let him complain about dinking & dunking... as long as he's playing in February.

mikegrimey
10-21-2012, 06:41 PM
There's a contingent of people out there who won't be satisfied until Roethlisberger and Haley dancing salsa together and making out at a local pub

teegre
10-21-2012, 06:52 PM
There's a contingent of people out there who won't be satisfied until Roethlisberger and Haley dancing salsa together and making out at a local pub

Salsa dancing: YES!!!
Sincerely,
Kordell Stewart

Atlanta Dan
10-22-2012, 08:21 AM
If Ben wanted to draw national attention to the question of how ow Haley and he get along by his comments to the Tribune-Review last week, mission accomplished. Peter King chimes in

I think you should watch for chinks in the Steeler offensive harmony. Ben Roethlisberger has been taking little shots at first-year offensive coordinator Todd Haley, and Friday, he told the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, "Haley's offense is not a big-play offense. It's kind of a dink-and-dunk offense." Asked about wanting more downfield throws, Roethlisberger said: "There's a guy calling the plays. That's on him." There was a gulf between Haley and his quarterback in Kansas City, Matt Cassel, and now there might be some with Roethlisberger.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/peter_king/10/21/week-7/4.html

steelfury02
10-22-2012, 08:37 AM
they don't need to be best friends, but Ben also doesn't need to talk in Riddles and be a passive-aggressive s.o.b. either. He and everyone with a half a brain knows what he is doing by saying what he has been saying lately.

FanSince72
10-22-2012, 09:13 AM
Nobody knows what's really going on between Ben and Haley but there was one moment last night when the camera showed Ben talking to Tomlin alone and away from other players and coaches after a score and if I were to put a caption to that moment it would read: "See how things work better if you let me call the plays?"

For all I know, Ben could have been telling Tomlin what his favorite pizza topping is, but it sure didn't look that way.

tony hipchest
10-22-2012, 09:36 AM
: "See how things work better if you let me call the plays?"



:rolleyes:


it will never cease to amaze me the lengths arians' apologists will go through to hate on haley and try to create imaginary dramatic strife amongst the team.

Atlanta Dan
10-22-2012, 09:40 AM
Nobody knows what's really going on between Ben and Haley but there was one moment last night when the camera showed Ben talking to Tomlin alone and away from other players and coaches after a score and if I were to put a caption to that moment it would read: "See how things work better if you let me call the plays?"

For all I know, Ben could have been telling Tomlin what his favorite pizza topping is, but it sure didn't look that way.

I saw that at the end of the first half as well - for all I know Ben was saying why in the world are we going for 2 points in the first half or maybe he was saying see what happens when I do not throw to Wallace - it is pure speculation

steelfury02
10-22-2012, 09:43 AM
it is just reality - I don't think there is some cataclysmic event that will prevent this team from moving forward or Ben continuing to be the 3rd down master -

the lack of communication between them and making a comment when one doesn't need to be made is palpable though - I more or less get annoyed by it because with as many problems this version of the Steelers has, why not be a leader and at least say the right things to prevent all the chirp instead of flaming it?

FanSince72
10-22-2012, 09:44 AM
:rolleyes:


it will never cease to amaze me the lengths arians' apologists will go through to hate on haley and try to create imaginary dramatic strife amongst the team.



Why would Bruce Arians need an "apologist"?

Why would coaching an offense to 5 winning seasons and 2 Super Bowl appearances require an apology?

Did you actually see the moment during last night's game I am referring to?
I think that anyone who saw that exchange would be thinking the same thing I was thinking.

TRH
10-22-2012, 09:45 AM
there are some crazy, looney comments on here. No one knows what Ben was talking to Tomlin about. QB's talk to head coaches all the time, every game.
Stop the madness.

FanSince72
10-22-2012, 09:48 AM
I saw that at the end of the first half as well - for all I know Ben was saying why in the world are we going for 2 points in the first half or maybe he was saying see what happens when I do not throw to Wallace - it is pure speculation

Of course it is (See: "Pizza topping comment)

And I'm just "speculating" as to what was being said based upon the way Ben was leaning into Tomlin along with his overall body language.
As soon as I saw that, my first thought was something along the lines of: "See? I told you so".

steelfury02
10-22-2012, 09:51 AM
it isn't madness, I just think it is there, and probably won't blow up like the media hopes it does. As Tomlin said, it'll prob happen and then they'll move on.

Atlanta Dan
10-22-2012, 09:51 AM
Why would Bruce Arians need an "apologist"?

Why would coaching an offense to 5 winning seasons and 2 Super Bowl appearances require an apology?

Did you actually see the moment during last night's game I am referring to?
I think that anyone who saw that exchange would be thinking the same thing I was thinking.

I saw it and I was not thinking that :chuckle:

If Bruce Arians was so good why did Art Rooney fire him? Consider the possibility the guy that owns the team might have a better handle on whether Arians was maximzing the talent on offense than certain fans of the team

maddog78
10-22-2012, 10:28 AM
Why would Bruce Arians need an "apologist"?

Why would coaching an offense to 5 winning seasons and 2 Super Bowl appearances require an apology?

Did you actually see the moment during last night's game I am referring to?
I think that anyone who saw that exchange would be thinking the same thing I was thinking.

So Arians coached this team to two Super Bowls? In 2008, the offense was ranked 20th, the defense 1st. In 2010, the offense was ranked 12th, the defense 1st. Arians had a top ten offense once, when it ranked 9th in 2007. Other than that 12, 12, 11, 20, 21.

Yeah, he coached them to two Super Bowls the way the fly on the windshield carried the driver across the finish line.

He may not need an apologist, but it sure looks like he has one in you.

steelfury02
10-22-2012, 10:37 AM
Wait a second - why are we talking about Arians again? I think we can all agree that the production is no worse without him? The correct answer is that him being or not being here wouldn't change things all that much if at all.

You can't argue that without Ben, Arians' body of work in Pittsburgh would have gone from "ok at times" to "below average"

Atlanta Dan
10-22-2012, 08:56 PM
Why would Bruce Arians need an "apologist"?

Why would coaching an offense to 5 winning seasons and 2 Super Bowl appearances require an apology?.

I suppose it depends if the players thought the coach's best interests and the team's best interests might be different:noidea:

Hines hasn't offered many strong opinions on NBC, but, man, he crushed Bruce Arians

Collinsworth spoke of a 'rumor' that the Steelers thought Bruce and Ben were "too close" and that it led to the move at coordinator. He asked Hines, "Do you buy into that?"

Hines answered with surprising candor: "Well, sometimes I think when you get so close, partiality sets it, and you don't know if Bruce Arians is doing what's best for the Steelers or if he's doing what's best for Ben Roethlisberger. And I think that set in. And they had to part ways, because when you go out there and you can't decide what's best for the team, and you're doing what's best for the player, sometimes it can be a problem."

http://sulia.com/source/S-38641461/f/6faf1e5d-9ddc-4247-b3e8-47f78a2a0067/

teegre
10-22-2012, 10:22 PM
You can't argue that without Ben, Arians' body of work in Pittsburgh would have gone from "ok at times" to "below average"

Agreed.

Arians has had Peyton Manning, BB, and now Andrew Luck.

With those three QBs, even my 18 month old daughter could have been "ok at times."

Atlanta Dan
10-23-2012, 08:32 AM
Ed.B. of the P-G brings the snark:chuckle:

Haley has a proven track record running offenses and it’s not as though he’s trying to replace Bill Walsh here

http://plus.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/pro-sports/steelers/118597-ed-steelers-defense-rises-to-qno-2q

maddog78
10-23-2012, 08:40 AM
I suppose it depends if the players thought the coach's best interests and the team's best interests might be different:noidea:

Hines hasn't offered many strong opinions on NBC, but, man, he crushed Bruce Arians

Collinsworth spoke of a 'rumor' that the Steelers thought Bruce and Ben were "too close" and that it led to the move at coordinator. He asked Hines, "Do you buy into that?"

Hines answered with surprising candor: "Well, sometimes I think when you get so close, partiality sets it, and you don't know if Bruce Arians is doing what's best for the Steelers or if he's doing what's best for Ben Roethlisberger. And I think that set in. And they had to part ways, because when you go out there and you can't decide what's best for the team, and you're doing what's best for the player, sometimes it can be a problem."

http://sulia.com/source/S-38641461/f/6faf1e5d-9ddc-4247-b3e8-47f78a2a0067/

Good find. And in trying to "help" Ben, all he ended up doing was getting him killed.

steelfury02
10-23-2012, 09:29 AM
Ben wasn't happy with Whiz either because Whiz told him what was going to be done in spite of what he wanted.

Fast forward - he loved Bruce because Bruce let him have more input.

Fast forward - now he is back to someone that approaches the relationship more like a coach-player relationship, not one that is of equal footing when calling the shots - and that pisses Ben off.

My opinion is that Ben is a great QB and I'm thankful he is a Steeler - but I also think that Ben doesn't know what is best half the time, despite the winning and the 2 Super Bowl titles. Ben wants to go for the home run as much as possible, and Ben thinks some of that predictable empty set shit is awesome, and that is what gets him killed and leads to less production.

Ben wants to surpass Bradshaw in rings. Not sure if that is an achievable goal (I thought he would have going into XLV, but the more I see the aging vets, the more I realize that was in fact a last chance for a handful of the key cogs). I think Ben is going to win 1 more before he retires, and 2 if some of these young guys step up sooner than expected

The time of possession improvement alone is totally worth the Arians canning. Ben needs to trust the Steelers way just a bit more, at least show that he does in public.