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19ward86
08-08-2006, 03:33 PM
i was watching espn and they started to talk about bens amazing rookie season. and u know that the guys on there never agree so one thing lead to another and they started talking about how ben only had a good '04 season because steelers had a great defense and a dominant running game. i was thinking that that was half true.yes our defense was fantastic but our running game was anything except dominant. bettis(the starter) had 941 yards rushing and a 3.8 ypc. not bad for a guy that weighs 250. but i dont count that dominant.

Black@Gold Forever32
08-08-2006, 03:40 PM
All I know the Steelers wouldn't have been 15-1 and made the AFC title if Tommy Maddox would have started all year. I see let everybody continue to doubt Ben and crack jokes on him. We know how special Ben is. So who cares what everybody else thinks.

Haiku_Dirtt
08-08-2006, 04:35 PM
He led all starting QBs in yards per attempt with an 8.89 yard average (Peyton Manning is second with an 8.74 yard average).

All that crap Manning does before the snap certainly has an effect on ESPN analysts but not on the facts...numbers don't lie.

steelcity984
08-08-2006, 04:48 PM
We finished I believe 3rd in rushing in 04.

But yeah, Ben has more important throws than any other quarterback in football due to the amount of time the Steelers run the ball. He has to throw a ton of passes on third down.

Mosca
08-08-2006, 05:09 PM
Ffffffft. If there's no controversy, their job is to create one.

Ben, like every other qb in the league, is on "what have you done for me lately" time. I have all the confidence in the world that a month from now those guys are going to pretend they never said those words, because this guy's the real deal. He loves to win and has the tools and the attitude and the smarts.


Tom

19ward86
08-08-2006, 05:18 PM
We finished I believe 3rd in rushing in 04.

But yeah, Ben has more important throws than any other quarterback in football due to the amount of time the Steelers run the ball. He has to throw a ton of passes on third down.

the steelers ran with bettis 250 times and over 100 times with duce 50 with willie. all im saying is we didnt have the clinton portis 1500yds or the LTs 1500 with a 5 yards per carry. that is what a dominant running game is too me.

AZ_Steeler
08-08-2006, 05:22 PM
The "analysts" want to see him fail and aren't ready to tout him has the next greatest thing because of their current "Wonder Boy" in Boston. Ben continues to defy all odds so they are setting up the failure so IF it ever does happen they can take the credit for it. For example, the sophomore slump... unless you want to call his performance in the SB his slump for the year, that's fine he has a big fat ring on his finger.

I'm surprised they haven't started talking about a Junior Slump (if there is such a thing). The bottom line is Ben has been on top of his game from day one, (I still think if he had a few more minutes in the Baltimore game in 04 the Steelers would have been 16-0) look at his passer rating, YPA, Comp %, TD to INT ratio... The list goes go on... I will take a consistent QB who puts up solid numbers year after year and knows how to get the ball down field when it counts. It's not all about 4500 yards a season and 30 TD's, what does Manning have to show for it... his name in the record books? Ben has been simply amazing and I don't see him slowing down one bit. Let the "analyst" talk about him, it adds fuel to the fire!

On a side note, has anyone noticed that it always seems like when Ben is in the game and the Steelers are trailing he finds a way to get some points on the board? I would be curious to see how many times the Steelers have scored, when trailing and after the opposing team has put points on the board...

I-Want-Troy's-Hair
08-08-2006, 05:29 PM
here's the article....

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/columns/story?columnist=joyner_kc&id=2542482&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnfl %2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fcolumnist%3djoyner_ kc%26id%3d2542482

Roethlisberger among worst decision makers
By KC Joyner
ESPN Insider
Archive

Editor's note: This is an expanded version of a passage that appears in Scientific Football 2006.

I track more than 100 metrics in every NFL game, but the most misunderstood and controversial of these has to be the bad decision metric for quarterbacks. The bad decision metric is the method I use to track a quarterback's mistakes. Simply put, if the quarterback makes a decision with the ball that either could have led or did lead to a turnover, he is debited with a bad decision on the play.

The most common types of bad decisions are:

1. Forcing a pass into coverage
2. Staring at a receiver
3. Throwing the ball despite being tackled
4. Misreading a zone defense and not seeing a defender in the passing lane.

On each of these types of plays, the quarterback is noted as having made a bad decision. There are game situations that can force a quarterback to throw the ball into coverage (e.g., on fourth-and-30, Hail Mary plays, etc.) that will not be ruled as bad decisions.

If the quarterback's mistake did not lead to a turnover (e.g., a dropped interception, a recovered fumble, etc.), the mistake is given only one bad decision point. If the mistake led to a turnover, however, it is given two mistake points and also is subject to a graduating scale of points based on how damaging the turnover was (e.g., an additional point for an interception killing a scoring drive, another additional point if the interception led to the opponent's being set up in scoring position, etc.). The scale has an upper limit of five points for any single bad decision.

Bad decision rankings are based on two percentage bases. The first is the standard bad decision percentage. To calculate this, I take the number of bad decisions a quarterback generated and divide it by the total number of attempts. The second percentage rating is the weighted bad decision percentage. This is calculated by taking the number of bad decision points and dividing it by the total number of attempts.

So, which quarterbacks were the best and worst decision makers in the NFL in 2005 according to Scientific Football 2006? At the bottom, I'll list the top five and bottom five in each category. But first, I'll analyze some of the more interesting QBs and where they fell as good or bad decision makers.

Good decision makers:
? Tom Brady: The best decision maker in 2005 was Tom Brady, and it wasn't even a close race. Brady made only four bad decisions in 549 attempts, which equates to a ridiculously low 0.7 percent bad decision percentage. No other quarterback came close to falling under the 1 percent mark in that category. Brady also had only nine bad decision points, and his 1.6 percent weighted bad decision percentage was also easily the best.

? Drew Bledsoe: The perception of Bledsoe is that he makes a lot of mistakes, but the metrics tell a different story. Bledsoe did rank next to last in the NFL for most interceptions thrown last year (17), but he had just 10 bad decisions. His 1.9 percent bad decision rate was the fourth best in the league, and he was only 0.2 percentage points behind Peyton Manning in that category. Bledsoe did have 21 bad decision points (tied for 28th worst in that category), but his high number of pass attempts meant his weighted bad decision percentage barely missed making the top 10.

? Byron Leftwich: Leftwich often is lauded for a number of his positive traits but his good decision making isn't normally one of them. It should be, as Leftwich ranked in the top seven in both bad decision and weighted bad decision percentage. That he did this despite throwing the second-highest percentage of deep passes (nearly 20 percent of his pass attempts were deep) is a testament to his ability to be aggressive while simultaneously protecting the ball.

Bad decision makers:
? Aaron Brooks: Brooks had a number of problems last year, but his biggest by far was his decision making. His 4.9 percent bad decision percentage was the fifth worst in the NFL, and his weighted bad decision percentage was almost into double digits (9.8 percent). Those percentages were nearly twice as high as his 2004 totals, so he is certainly capable of performing better.

? Matt Hasselbeck: Hasselbeck had a fantastic season last year almost across the board, but his 17 bad decisions and 26 bad decision points were both tied for the seventh-highest total in their respective categories. The West Coast offense operated by the Seahawks is not a high-risk offense, and that makes Hasselbeck's performance in this metric a bit more perplexing.

? Brett Favre: It should come as no surprise that Favre had the highest number of bad decisions and bad decision points in 2005. To put his 53 bad decision points into perspective, one could add the totals of nearly any two other quarterbacks in the NFL last year and they still wouldn't surpass Favre's total. Favre's saving grace from a percentage perspective was his extremely high number of pass attempts (he was the only quarterback to top 600 attempts in 2005), but he still ranked in the bottom 10 in both bad decision percentage categories. Green Bay will need a dramatic improvement from Favre in this aspect of his game if the Packers want to be competitive in 2006.

? Ben Roethlisberger: Big Ben's 2005 season provides proof that you can win despite having high bad decision percentages. Roethlisberger ranked dead last in the bad decision percentage category and had the fifth-highest weighted bad decision percentage. He was able to get away with those elevated percentages because he had by far the highest yards per pass attempt in 2005 (9.1 yards, the only QB to top the 9-yard mark). If the YPA number drops at all in 2006, Roethlisberger's bad decision percentages will need to show improvement.

Here are the top and bottom five in each percentage category:

Elvis
08-08-2006, 05:32 PM
If you want to compare stats... lets say for Big Ben... he had what 17 td's and 9 ints... right?.... well how many td's did Manning have in INDY? or last year when he broke the Marino record for TD passes... Now... would you trade Super Bowl XL for those TD's the past 5 years of Manning or combine all the TD"s that Marino and Manning have thrown in their careers ? No... I Didnt Think So!!

stillers4me
08-08-2006, 05:34 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/sueincinci/Smileys/blah.gifhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/sueincinci/Smileys/blah.gifhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/sueincinci/Smileys/blah.gifhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/sueincinci/Smileys/blah.gifhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/sueincinci/Smileys/blah.gif

AZ_Steeler
08-08-2006, 05:45 PM
here's the article....

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/columns/story?columnist=joyner_kc&id=2542482&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnfl %2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fcolumnist%3djoyner_ kc%26id%3d2542482

Roethlisberger among worst decision makers
By KC Joyner
ESPN Insider
Archive

Editor's note: This is an expanded version of a passage that appears in Scientific Football 2006.

I track more than 100 metrics in every NFL game, but the most misunderstood and controversial of these has to be the bad decision metric for quarterbacks. The bad decision metric is the method I use to track a quarterback's mistakes. Simply put, if the quarterback makes a decision with the ball that either could have led or did lead to a turnover, he is debited with a bad decision on the play.

The most common types of bad decisions are:

1. Forcing a pass into coverage
2. Staring at a receiver
3. Throwing the ball despite being tackled
4. Misreading a zone defense and not seeing a defender in the passing lane.

On each of these types of plays, the quarterback is noted as having made a bad decision. There are game situations that can force a quarterback to throw the ball into coverage (e.g., on fourth-and-30, Hail Mary plays, etc.) that will not be ruled as bad decisions.

If the quarterback's mistake did not lead to a turnover (e.g., a dropped interception, a recovered fumble, etc.), the mistake is given only one bad decision point. If the mistake led to a turnover, however, it is given two mistake points and also is subject to a graduating scale of points based on how damaging the turnover was (e.g., an additional point for an interception killing a scoring drive, another additional point if the interception led to the opponent's being set up in scoring position, etc.). The scale has an upper limit of five points for any single bad decision.

Bad decision rankings are based on two percentage bases. The first is the standard bad decision percentage. To calculate this, I take the number of bad decisions a quarterback generated and divide it by the total number of attempts. The second percentage rating is the weighted bad decision percentage. This is calculated by taking the number of bad decision points and dividing it by the total number of attempts.

So, which quarterbacks were the best and worst decision makers in the NFL in 2005 according to Scientific Football 2006? At the bottom, I'll list the top five and bottom five in each category. But first, I'll analyze some of the more interesting QBs and where they fell as good or bad decision makers.

Good decision makers:
? Tom Brady: The best decision maker in 2005 was Tom Brady, and it wasn't even a close race. Brady made only four bad decisions in 549 attempts, which equates to a ridiculously low 0.7 percent bad decision percentage. No other quarterback came close to falling under the 1 percent mark in that category. Brady also had only nine bad decision points, and his 1.6 percent weighted bad decision percentage was also easily the best.

? Drew Bledsoe: The perception of Bledsoe is that he makes a lot of mistakes, but the metrics tell a different story. Bledsoe did rank next to last in the NFL for most interceptions thrown last year (17), but he had just 10 bad decisions. His 1.9 percent bad decision rate was the fourth best in the league, and he was only 0.2 percentage points behind Peyton Manning in that category. Bledsoe did have 21 bad decision points (tied for 28th worst in that category), but his high number of pass attempts meant his weighted bad decision percentage barely missed making the top 10.

? Byron Leftwich: Leftwich often is lauded for a number of his positive traits but his good decision making isn't normally one of them. It should be, as Leftwich ranked in the top seven in both bad decision and weighted bad decision percentage. That he did this despite throwing the second-highest percentage of deep passes (nearly 20 percent of his pass attempts were deep) is a testament to his ability to be aggressive while simultaneously protecting the ball.

Bad decision makers:
? Aaron Brooks: Brooks had a number of problems last year, but his biggest by far was his decision making. His 4.9 percent bad decision percentage was the fifth worst in the NFL, and his weighted bad decision percentage was almost into double digits (9.8 percent). Those percentages were nearly twice as high as his 2004 totals, so he is certainly capable of performing better.

? Matt Hasselbeck: Hasselbeck had a fantastic season last year almost across the board, but his 17 bad decisions and 26 bad decision points were both tied for the seventh-highest total in their respective categories. The West Coast offense operated by the Seahawks is not a high-risk offense, and that makes Hasselbeck's performance in this metric a bit more perplexing.

? Brett Favre: It should come as no surprise that Favre had the highest number of bad decisions and bad decision points in 2005. To put his 53 bad decision points into perspective, one could add the totals of nearly any two other quarterbacks in the NFL last year and they still wouldn't surpass Favre's total. Favre's saving grace from a percentage perspective was his extremely high number of pass attempts (he was the only quarterback to top 600 attempts in 2005), but he still ranked in the bottom 10 in both bad decision percentage categories. Green Bay will need a dramatic improvement from Favre in this aspect of his game if the Packers want to be competitive in 2006.

? Ben Roethlisberger: Big Ben's 2005 season provides proof that you can win despite having high bad decision percentages. Roethlisberger ranked dead last in the bad decision percentage category and had the fifth-highest weighted bad decision percentage. He was able to get away with those elevated percentages because he had by far the highest yards per pass attempt in 2005 (9.1 yards, the only QB to top the 9-yard mark). If the YPA number drops at all in 2006, Roethlisberger's bad decision percentages will need to show improvement.

Here are the top and bottom five in each percentage category:

Is there any chance this dude is confusing Big Ben and Mad Maddox?? I just can't see him ranked with Favre and Brooks for the 05 season, that's just ridiculous!

Mosca
08-08-2006, 05:53 PM
I dunno, the metric seems to be a stretch, they're looking for a way to analyze something that hasn't been analyzed before. But it also looks like they are looking for qbs that are "Brady-like"; it looks like they said, "OK, Brady's great. Let's take what makes him great and see how the others compare." So naturally, Brady will be "the most Brady-like". Then everyone else follows.

Abstract football analysis is still in its infancy, and so much of what happens on the field is interdependent on everything else that I'm not sure it can be teased out the way they're trying to do. Obviously Brady's great... but is Brady's way the only way? Just as obviously, no (see the Bradshaw thread). Brady's great for the Pats. Big Ben's great for the Steelers.


Tom

CAH
08-08-2006, 06:23 PM
He led all starting QBs in yards per attempt with an 8.89 yard average (Peyton Manning is second with an 8.74 yard average).

All that crap Manning does before the snap certainly has an effect on ESPN analysts but not on the facts...numbers don't lie.
Manning looks like an insane guy before the snap. He positively drives me crazy which makes it even sweeter when his butt gets sacked.

tony hipchest
08-08-2006, 06:38 PM
The "analysts" want to see him fail and aren't ready to tout him has the next greatest thing because of their current "Wonder Boy" in Boston. Ben continues to defy all odds so they are setting up the failure so IF it ever does happen they can take the credit for it. For example, the sophomore slump... unless you want to call his performance in the SB his slump for the year, that's fine he has a big fat ring on his finger.

I'm surprised they haven't started talking about a Junior Slump (if there is such a thing). The bottom line is Ben has been on top of his game from day one, (I still think if he had a few more minutes in the Baltimore game in 04 the Steelers would have been 16-0) look at his passer rating, YPA, Comp %, TD to INT ratio... The list goes go on... I will take a consistent QB who puts up solid numbers year after year and knows how to get the ball down field when it counts. It's not all about 4500 yards a season and 30 TD's, what does Manning have to show it... his name in the record books? Ben has been simply amazing and I don't see him slowing down one bit. Let the "analyst" talk about him, it adds fuel to the fire!

On a side note, has anyone noticed that it always seems like when Ben is in the game and the Steelers are trailing he finds a way to get some points on the board? I would be curious to see how many times the Steelers have scored, when trailing and after the opposing team has put points on the board... ben played about 5 quarters vs. baltimore in his rookie season. injuries to himself and t. maddox prevented him playing a full game. in those 5+ quarters he threw for over 400 yds and 4 td's (he did throw some int's too- 3 i think) not bad for a rookie.

bratsinmybelly
08-08-2006, 07:08 PM
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.


I guess Ben will literally have to go undefeated in a season to get any serious props. Even then they'll find some reason to say Brady's better. For some reason most of the mainstream press REFUSES to admit that the Steelers AND Ben are legit! Amazing!

MattsMe
08-08-2006, 08:00 PM
Brady made only four bad decisions in 549 attempts, which equates to a ridiculously low 0.7 percent bad decision percentage.

I was suspicious of the article from the start, and this statement pretty much confirmed it. I stopped reading after that sentence. I'm not knocking Brady, and he may very well be the "best" in the league right now. But claiming that he made only 4 bad decisions last year is beyond ridiculous.

Here's some stats that can't be argued, and actually matter when it comes to winning and losing:

http://coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=889

SteelerMurf
08-08-2006, 08:06 PM
Boy, I hope Ben keeps up the bad skills and decision makers. Imagine what his record would be if he didn't suck and wasn't so stupid.

Lefturn
08-08-2006, 08:07 PM
I think of espn as the national enquire of sports. Thankfully I can come here to get real Steeler news

AZ_Steeler
08-08-2006, 08:33 PM
I was suspicious of the article from the start, and this statement pretty much confirmed it. I stopped reading after that sentence. I'm not knocking Brady, and he may very well be the "best" in the league right now. But claiming that he made only 4 bad decisions last year is beyond ridiculous.

Here's some stats that can't be argued, and actually matter when it comes to winning and losing:

http://coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=889

Wow! 4 bad desicions all year long... that means that 10 of his 14 INT's were not bad decisions :dang:

SteelerMurf
08-08-2006, 09:28 PM
Wow! 4 bad desicions all year long... that means that 10 of his 14 INT's were not bad decisions :dang:

They don't know what they are talking about, Tom Brady has never made a bad decision let alone 4 in an entire season.:rolleyes:

Steel Pit
08-09-2006, 05:32 AM
i was watching espn and they started to talk about bens amazing rookie season. and u know that the guys on there never agree so one thing lead to another and they started talking about how ben only had a good '04 season because steelers had a great defense and a dominant running game. i was thinking that that was half true.yes our defense was fantastic but our running game was anything except dominant. bettis(the starter) had 941 yards rushing and a 3.8 ypc. not bad for a guy that weighs 250. but i dont count that dominant.

Here's the proven fact. During Cowher's tenure with the Steelers he has nearly always had a great running game and great defense. MANY of his previous defensive untis and running games were far better than those of the 04 team. Did those great defenses and running games assist our prior QB's to the point that they won a Super Bowl? The answer is obviously NO.

The Steelers prior QB's such as Neil O'Donnell, Mike Tomzcak, Kordell Stewart, and Tommy Maddox were not able to get it done even though the team had a great defense and running game. The fact remains that Ben is the man that got the Steelers over the hump and he would have done the same for any team that may have drafted him.

BigBen2WardPITT
08-09-2006, 10:17 AM
we had a good running game, duh thats how it is, but it doesnt make ben any worse. Sure, most of the year he didnt put up peyton manning numbers but he didnt need to! We had the game won already! this could change a little bit this year, he might put up more numbers because they might want him to or they might be forced to to have him pass more.

Lyn
08-09-2006, 10:22 AM
The Steelers get no respect at all. Most anyone of my friends from opposing NFL teams have all told me Ben is "no good" all the typical crap we all hear. I know what I know and that is all I have to know.

83-Steelers-43
08-09-2006, 10:32 AM
When hasn't ESPN and the so-called "experts" questioned this team? Nevermind Ben. Just the team in general? The only time I heard those sarcastic suits not question this team was when the jumbotron inside Fords Field read "Steelers: 21 Seahawks: 10 / 4th Quarter / Time: 00:00" and that's when the majority of these "experts" started to state that they knew it all along.

Let them talk and have their little predictions.....we will just show them up once again. Screw'em.

X-Terminator
08-09-2006, 11:03 AM
I don't take stuff like this seriously. It's just another excuse for the so-called "experts" to put down the Steelers because we take care of business the old-fashioned way - tough, physical, punch-your-opponent-in-the-mouth football. So when we win it all again this year, it'll be even sweeter, because once again, we'll have proved the doubters wrong.

HometownGal
08-09-2006, 12:46 PM
Ffffffft. If there's no controversy, their job is to create one.

Ben, like every other qb in the league, is on "what have you done for me lately" time. I have all the confidence in the world that a month from now those guys are going to pretend they never said those words, because this guy's the real deal. He loves to win and has the tools and the attitude and the smarts.


Tom

There you have it - in a nutshell. We know what Ben can do, but most importantly, so do his teammates and his coaches. The total confidence they have shown in Ben has only enhanced his own self-confidence and drive to be the best he can be. It doesn't get any better than that. :cool:

floodcitygirl
08-09-2006, 12:52 PM
The Steelers have always been "the hated" (except by their huge fan base) for as long as I can remember...nothing new here. :rolleyes:

HometownGal
08-09-2006, 12:58 PM
The Steelers have always been "the hated" (except by their huge fan base) for as long as I can remember...nothing new here. :rolleyes:

Very true. This season we're the hunted instead of the hunter and with this team, I believe they will revel in it! :bouncy:

SteelerFanInCA
08-09-2006, 01:13 PM
These guys from ESPN are just talking out of their asses as usual. Just more crap to motivate Ben.

siss
08-09-2006, 01:45 PM
These guys from ESPN are just talking out of their asses as usual. Just more crap to motivate Ben.
Exactly!
Don't they know that this is the kinda that motivates him instead of discourages him!