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View Full Version : QB hit + forward incomplete pass = FUMBLE????


NEWstevo
11-05-2012, 07:42 AM
QB hit + forward incomplete pass = FUMBLE????

"Former officials supervisor Mike Pereira tweeted he thought Roethlisberger still had control of the ball when his arm was going forward and it should have been an incomplete pass."

So now I wonder if this has set a precedence in the NFL. When a QB is attempting a pass and he is hit as he throws, and the pass goes off target but still falls forward incomplete, is that now a fumble instead of an incompless pass?

I guess it will depend on who is the QB, and which teams are playing. And maybe if Goodell is present.

Darkstorm05
11-05-2012, 08:08 AM
QB hit + forward incomplete pass = FUMBLE????

"Former officials supervisor Mike Pereira tweeted he thought Roethlisberger still had control of the ball when his arm was going forward and it should have been an incomplete pass."

So now I wonder if this has set a precedence in the NFL. When a QB is attempting a pass and he is hit as he throws, and the pass goes off target but still falls forward incomplete, is that now a fumble instead of an incompless pass?

I guess it will depend on who is the QB, and which teams are playing. And maybe if Goodell is present.

That's the thing, though...this totally contradicts the entire purpose of the arm moving forward rule. If now it only matters if he was hit, the arm moving forward rule becomes irrelevant.

WVABE
11-05-2012, 08:17 AM
I guess it will depend on who is the QB, and which teams are playing. And maybe if Goodell is present.

BINGO

torpedoshell31
11-05-2012, 08:36 AM
If the same play would have happened to Brady,Eli,or Peyton, the play would have been whistled dead immediately.

SteeleReign
11-05-2012, 08:36 AM
I don't know what the rule is, but Phil "D-bag" Simms claims the ball was coming loose before Ben's arm went forward. However, as I saw the replay, the ball was still in his hand. There was no "open hand" in that case.

So....who knows? Guess, like the OP said, depends on the QB and for which team he plays.

steelfury02
11-05-2012, 08:45 AM
the ball was still in his hand, but it did shift slightly As ticky tack as this league is, I'm not surprised by anything anymore. Wrong call in my book, but as most are saying - the league was trying everything it could to ensure a big win for the city of New York.

The sad thing is, the Giants really didn't need any help - they are still the defending champs, and they are still a team to take seriously.

beer72
11-05-2012, 08:45 AM
BINGO

We have a winner!!!!

FanSince72
11-05-2012, 08:52 AM
QB hit + forward incomplete pass = FUMBLE????

I guess it will depend on who is the QB, and which teams are playing. And maybe if Goodell is present.


Yes.

There's a little known subordinate clause in that rule (in very fine print) that lists QB's who are exempt and they are: Tom Brady (for whom the rule was written), anyone named "Manning", Aaron Rogers and Drew Brees.

This clause is followed by something very unusual for a legal document; a picture of a dart board with Ben Roethlisberger's face superimposed over it.

Curiously, there is no written explanation as to the exact meaning of this image or why it was included and repeated calls to the NFL for clarification remain unanswered.

:noidea:

tony hipchest
11-05-2012, 10:27 AM
adam schein and rich gannon just said this was the worst blown call they have ever seen in their lives.

they are talking heads on national radio, not biased steelerfans.

goodell should feel lucky he called off his dogs at halftime and the steelers were able to pull out the win, otherwise it woulda been blatantly obvious that the fix was in.

this blown call was worse than the polamaly int and fumble vs indy in 05, cause that was a rare occurrence. bens incomplete pass was routine. the call was a no brainer (as was the clip on heath miller).

stb_steeler
11-05-2012, 10:35 AM
I have to say Simms was very amusing last night, one time he stated the play was a pass then later stated he needed his glass's then proceeded to say yes i do see the ball coming loose......:popcorn:

steelax04
11-05-2012, 11:57 AM
I have to say Simms was very amusing last night, one time he stated the play was a pass then later stated he needed his glass's then proceeded to say yes i do see the ball coming loose......:popcorn:

I already disliked Simms, but this whole sequence from him took it to a whole new level. He stated twice that he didn't think it was a fumble. Then comes the commercial break and he does a flip-flop on the next replay of it right when they come back.

What a douche.

LVSteelersfan
11-05-2012, 12:02 PM
Simms is a Giants ballwasher. I am surprised he called it an incomplete at first. But coming back and saying later that it was indeed a fumble smacks of collusion and someone telling him to reverse his decision.

Darkstorm05
11-05-2012, 12:05 PM
One thing does need to be said here after looking at the replays. I know it was a 100% BS call...BUT, we had like 5 guys just stand there watching the Giants grab the ball and start running. I know Ben was assuring them with his hand signals that it was a dead ball, but THERE WAS NO WHISTLE. Until there's a whistle blown, you better dive your fat lineman ass onto that ball at all costs. We knew damned well by then how the refs were calling things. That ball should have been bottled up before a return could take place.

jjpro11
11-05-2012, 12:11 PM
Simms is a Giants ballwasher. I am surprised he called it an incomplete at first. But coming back and saying later that it was indeed a fumble smacks of collusion and someone telling him to reverse his decision.

If he was calling the game biased, he would have said fumble from the outset and not even question the call.. I mean, that's right after he called the Clark hit a terrible one. Someone from the league or CBS no doubt put the word in that he should change his opinion on the call after the commercial break because it's not good for the league. Pretty pathetic and just shows what a Nazi type league Goodell is running.



As for the call, the ball may have moved when the defender initially made contact with Ben's arm, but Ben was still able to regain control of the ball, firmly grip it, and throw it forward. The open hand rule is when the QB has no control over the ball with his hand;and he essentially pushes it forward with the palm of his hand. Think of the Woodley forced fumble on Warner in the Super Bowl. Warner had no grip or control of the ball and basically flung it forward with the palm of his hand. The Eli Manning fumble last night was another example.

Darkstorm05
11-05-2012, 12:13 PM
If he was calling the game biased, he would have said fumble from the outset and not even question the call.. I mean, that's right after he called the Clark hit a terrible one. Someone from the league or CBS no doubt put the word in that he should change his opinion on the call after the commercial break because it's not good for the league. Pretty pathetic and just shows what a Nazi type league Goodell is running.



As for the call, the ball may have moved when the defender initially made contact with Ben's arm, but Ben was still able to regain control of the ball, firmly grip it, and throw it forward. The open hand rule is when the QB has no control over the ball with his hand;and he essentially pushes it forward with the palm of his hand. Think of the Woodley forced fumble on Warner in the Super Bowl. Warner had no grip or control of the ball and basically flung it forward with the palm of his hand. The Eli Manning fumble last night was another example.

Yea, the ball movement came while he was cocked to throw. It was 100% obvious that he had a full grip and control regained during his throwing motion.

Solak
11-05-2012, 12:27 PM
It shouldn't matter if the ball shifted slightly after Bens arm was hit, he still had a grasp on it and it didn't come out until his arm was all the way forward. Bad call.

FanSince72
11-05-2012, 12:37 PM
Maybe it went something like this:

- CBS Broadcast Booth (evening) -

Camera discovers Phil Simms commenting on the fumble.

(Phone rings in the booth, Jim Nantz answers)


NANTZ: "Hello"

VOICE ON PHONE: "I have Commissioner Goodell for Phil Simms"

NANTZ: "Oh, just a sec... hey Phil, Rodger Goodell for you"

SIMMS: (looking stunned): "For me?"

NANTZ: "Yes"

SIMMS: (straightening his tie and clearing his throat): "Yes Mr. Commissioner sir?"

GOODELL: Uh Phil, we think we may have been a little too obvious with that fumble call and our Twitter polls tell us that a lot of fans think we're throwing the game to the Giants because of the whole Sandy thing. So we'd like you to state publicly that you think it might have been a bad call.

SIMMS: Uh, I guess I could do that...I mean, I don't want to do anything to hurt the League or your good name, but if you say it's OK then I guess I could...

GOODELL: (interrupting): "Stop slobbering Phil, for Chrissake! Just say that you think it may have been a bad call. Don't dwell on it, just mention it, Got it?"

SIMMS: "Yes Mr. Commissioner sir"

GOODELL: "Good. Now put Nantz back on I have some more schmaltzy first responder and service people crap I need him to gush over".

SIMMS: "Uh, yessir! Thank you sir!"

GOODELL: (thinking to himself) ***"jeez what a f**kin' tool..."***

Fire Arians
11-05-2012, 01:15 PM
it's the justin tuck rule

stb_steeler
11-05-2012, 01:22 PM
One thing does need to be said here after looking at the replays. I know it was a 100% BS call...BUT, we had like 5 guys just stand there watching the Giants grab the ball and start running. I know Ben was assuring them with his hand signals that it was a dead ball, but THERE WAS NO WHISTLE. Until there's a whistle blown, you better dive your fat lineman ass onto that ball at all costs. We knew damned well by then how the refs were calling things. That ball should have been bottled up before a return could take place.

Kind of reminds us of that same type of play against Ravens last year....They all stood there thinking the play was dead.

Riddle_Of_Steel
11-05-2012, 01:22 PM
They are going to install X-ray capabilities in the replay cameras now, so we can see the QB's hand bones to know if his hand inside the glove lost its grip on the ball (even if the ball doesn't leave his hands).

tucker6
11-05-2012, 03:21 PM
who still thinks these refs are any better than the replacements?? I've also noticed that the replacement refs didn't play favorites with the Brady/Manning/Rodgers of the world. Note how their passer ratings improved markedly after the regulars got back to town.

jjpro11
11-05-2012, 03:31 PM
who still thinks these refs are any better than the replacements?? I've also noticed that the replacement refs didn't play favorites with the Brady/Manning/Rodgers of the world. Note how their passer ratings improved markedly after the regulars got back to town.

The nice thing about them was they didn't enforce the 5 yard defensive holding or PI calls like the regular assholes do... Probably because they are used to reffing real football games where guys (and kids) fight for thrown footballs.. Not this glorified arena football shit the NFL is putting out and instructing the refs to call.

Steelersfan87
11-05-2012, 10:03 PM
The NFL rule book states: NFL Rule 3, Section 22, Article 2, Note 2. When [an offensive] player is holding the ball to pass it forward, any intentional forward movement of his arm starts a forward pass, even if the player loses possession of the ball as he is attempting to tuck it back toward his body. Also, if the player has tucked the ball into his body and then loses possession, it is a fumble.

http://sinfl.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/bentuck.gif?w=509&h=272

http://nfl.si.com/2012/11/04/ben-roethlisberger-fumble-vs-giants-ignites-tuck-rule-controversy/?sct=hp_t11_a3&eref=sihp

CanuckCurtain
11-06-2012, 12:21 AM
COUGH! tom brady COUGH! tuck rule

grward
11-06-2012, 06:59 PM
Kind of reminds us of that same type of play against Ravens last year....They all stood there thinking the play was dead.

That's funny ... I was thinking the same thing. You would think they would have learned from that play! Guess not. Bad call either way.