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tony hipchest
11-28-2012, 12:03 PM
:shout:-...and conditioning coaches!!!

ive gotten so tired of hearing this crap the past 2 years. BTSC has a great piece people should read to educate themselves-

Steelers Injuries: An in-depth look at reasons behind the 83 player games missed (and counting) in 2012

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2012/11/28/3699234/steelers-injury-report-2012-nfl-week-13-baltimore-ravens-list-games-missed

4. Bad conditioning. This is the one that many fans are currently questioning. What the heck our are trainers doing, or not doing, that is leading to this current rash of injuries? Football training is a curious topic and one that many have a strong opinion about.

First, let's dispense with the obvious: if a player is not willing to train their body there is nothing the trainers can do for them. Jim Wexell just wrote an article about how Keenan Lewis has finally started to heed the advice of Ike Taylor and started lifting on Mondays.

Really.

It took this long for a professional athlete to realize that he should probably take care of his body. This cannot be blamed on the trainers or the coaches. If one of the trainers could force Lewis to do something even though Lewis does not receive some immediate tangible benefit from it, then they shouldn't be a trainer. They should be in the Middle East negotiating a peace settlement. Coaches can make an athlete go to therapy, but they can't make them work hard while there. Remember, this is the essence of sports. If everyone was the gold standard, it would not be the gold standard would it?

The best trainers can do is design an excellent conditioning program. Do our trainers do that? No, but not for the reason you think. No one designs a program anymore. Everything is individualized. A trainer does an individual assessment of each athlete, sees where they have weak points, and then designs a program to address those points.

A good example of this to consider is Buddy Morris. Buddy was the legendary strength coach of the Pitt Panthers during Pitt's heyday of the 70s and 80s. When Butch Davis got the Cleveland job, he hired Morris. At that time, Morris had built his reputation on injury prevention. He had a lot of research and new exercise to combat injuries. If you walked into one of Buddy's workouts, you would see some athletes doing things like terminal knee extensions, rotator cuff work, lots and lots of core work (Buddy really brought the core stuff to the forefront), medicine ball exercises, tissue therapy, and a myriad of other things.
Guess what? None of it worked. The Browns were devastated by injuries and Davis was fired.

I'm not saying that Davis was fired because of the injuries, but the interim coach that replaced him did. He basically threw Morris under the bus. In what might be the only time in football history this happened, the strength coach called a press conference. Buddy actually made a cut-up of every injury suffered that year. His point was this: football is a high collision sport. There is no way to avoid injury. The best you can hope for is to minimize them and treat them as fast as possible.

To which, one could plausibly retort "In that case, what the heck is the point of having a strength coach and/or athletic trainers?" After a season in which the Steelers special teams were not special, a reporter asked Tomlin how he could square that fact with the amount of practice time the Steelers spent on special teams. His answer was, "Imagine how bad we would've been if we didn't practice special teams all that time."

Lokki
11-28-2012, 12:35 PM
YEAH!

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRb17BfjkjOgTou662MU38Fs5s6etqQD Ye73vCA2g9pBNwa0giumQ

TRH
11-28-2012, 12:40 PM
i don't disagree with the article at all - i'm a trainer myself - i don't need to educate myself - and the "will" of the individual/player is key. The only thing i WILL say...is that all trainers are not created equal. The conditioning job is to not only 'condition' but to do the best to prevent injury as well.
Are they doing our team justice? How are they in comparison with the rest of the team's trainers in the league? Can we do and hire better? Are they working with each and every player at a better-than-satisfactory level?
These are questions that we can only guess or very loosely debate since we're not in the facility. Can trainers prevent injuries? No. But the amount of them (and this goes back through all of last year too) here definitely makes one wonder, though.

steelfury02
11-28-2012, 12:47 PM
i don't disagree with the article at all - i'm a trainer myself - i don't need to educate myself - and the "will" of the individual/player is key. The only thing i WILL say...is that all trainers are not created equal. The conditioning job is to not only 'condition' but to do the best to prevent injury as well.
Are they doing our team justice? How are they in comparison with the rest of the team's trainers in the league? Can we do and hire better? Are they working with each and every player at a better-than-satisfactory level?
These are questions that we can only guess or very loosely debate since we're not in the facility. Can trainers prevent injuries? No. But the amount of them (and this goes back through all of last year too) here definitely makes one wonder, though.

i'm no expert - but - it is maddening. Something has to be looked at. Fault doesn't fix the problem - but it still needs to at least be addressed. The best part of this piece is about the will of the player. These guys aren't the smartest in the world - it wouldn't shock me to find out that it has equally, if not more to do with the player's willingness to understand and commit.

Gilbert, Gilbert, Gilbert

Lokki
11-28-2012, 12:55 PM
Some of it is just pure bad luck for us. Our own lineman taking out other linemen by falling into the back of their legs. Ben getting a fluke injury. Troy having the most severe and mysterious calf injury in history. Leftwich hurting himself while running for a TD.

tony hipchest
11-28-2012, 02:00 PM
the steelers are a 1st class organization from the top on down. they always have one of the best coaches. colbert is a leaging GM in the league. omar kahn is perhaps the leagues best contract negotiator. the worlds leading expert on concussions and neuroscientist is their team physician consulted by the rest of the league and leagues worldwide. they have top of the line traing facilities. i mean hell they have the university of sports medecine at their disposal

there is absolutely NO indication that the steelers would half ass it and not put a premium on a training staff, look the other way and settle for second best. i thought steelerfans knew our team better.

but of course the fan's psychology NEEDs to find someone or something to blame for this-

83 Player Games Missed in 2012

David DeCastro 11

Sean Spence 11 (IR)

David Johnson 11 (IR)

Troy Polamalu 9

Rashard Mendenhall 7

Marcus Gilbert 6 (IR)

Stevenson Sylvester 6

Antonio Brown 3

James Harrison 3

Chris Carter 3 (IR)

Ben Roethlisberger 2

LaMarr Woodley 2

Isaac Redman 2

Ryan Clark 1

Maurkice Pouncey 1

Byron Leftwich 1

Jerricho Cotchery 1

Jonathan Dwyer 1

Brandon Johnson 1

Mike Adams 1

interesting were the comments on gilbert because that is the tongue in cheek conclusion the author of linked article comes up with-

Conclusion. It's all Marcus Gilbert's fault. Yep, that correct. I just wrote 1400 words and that is the best I got. You betcha. Here is the thing. Bad technique leads to getting beat. Getting beat leads to someone getting tackled. When Gilbert gets beat, someone is usually getting tackled on the back of someone's legs. Remember that kid in high school that the coach refused to put in unless you were losing by 50? The coach wasn't being an idiot, he knew that the kid would probably get three others hurt. At least. My conspiracy theory is that he's not really that hurt. The Steelers just refuse to put him on the field until camp next year.

As a matter of fact, I'm shocked Legursky was not on the injury report this week.


:tap:

im not sure that isnt that far fetched, but then again, i beleive that gilbert is pretty much a turd who never has put in the extra work in the first place. :noidea:

Riddle_Of_Steel
11-28-2012, 02:08 PM
but of course the fan's psychology NEEDs to find someone or something to blame for this

What this thread is missing is a comparison of the number of player games missed by other teams. It seems that we are losing guys at a much faster rate than other teams-- and if that is the case, we can play the blame game all we want, make excuses for the training staff, blame it on teh players, etc. etc. but it does not change the fact that something is not being done correctly as far as strength and conditioning.

Are we trying to say it is just coincidence, the number of injuries we have had in the last 3 seasons? It is all the players' fault?

tony hipchest
11-28-2012, 02:38 PM
it seems WE are losing players at a faster rate because steelers are predisposed to steelers information and news and simply dont pay attention to other teams (let alone the league as a whole) as closely.

as they say WE " live in a fishbowl.

our oh so knowledgable fans, who like to constantly crow and pat themselves on the back as being the MOST knowledgable, TOTALLY discount the fact that the steelers also play a more physical brand of football than the rest of the league, yet the same fans want to brag about our team being the toughest and the baddest, while the majority of other teams play a more finesse style.

joey porter called the colts out for that shit years ago in '05.

every team has gone through a stroke of bad luck at some point and time. some teams are just more lucky enough to have kurt warner or tom brady sitting on the bench when that time arrives.

steelerchad
11-28-2012, 02:51 PM
the steelers are a 1st class organization from the top on down. they always have one of the best coaches. colbert is a leaging GM in the league. omar kahn is perhaps the leagues best contract negotiator. the worlds leading expert on concussions and neuroscientist is their team physician consulted by the rest of the league and leagues worldwide. they have top of the line traing facilities. i mean hell they have the university of sports medecine at their disposal

there is absolutely NO indication that the steelers would half ass it and not put a premium on a training staff, look the other way and settle for second best. i thought steelerfans knew our team better.

but of course the fan's psychology NEEDs to find someone or something to blame for this-

83 Player Games Missed in 2012

David DeCastro 11

Sean Spence 11 (IR)

David Johnson 11 (IR)

Troy Polamalu 9

Rashard Mendenhall 7

Marcus Gilbert 6 (IR)

Stevenson Sylvester 6

Antonio Brown 3

James Harrison 3

Chris Carter 3 (IR)

Ben Roethlisberger 2

LaMarr Woodley 2

Isaac Redman 2

Ryan Clark 1

Maurkice Pouncey 1

Byron Leftwich 1

Jerricho Cotchery 1

Jonathan Dwyer 1

Brandon Johnson 1

Mike Adams 1

interesting were the comments on gilbert because that is the tongue in cheek conclusion the author of linked article comes up with-



:tap:

im not sure that isnt that far fetched, but then again, i beleive that gilbert is pretty much a turd who never has put in the extra work in the first place. :noidea:

Each guy is different. At first I thought maybe it was because we have a lot of 30+ starters. But there's a ton of young guys going down.

RB's always get hurt on every team. It's just a matter of time. O-Line, more of the same.
Troy has been injury prone as he's gotten older. Wear and tear.

teegre
11-28-2012, 04:51 PM
the steelers also play a more physical brand of football than the rest of the league, yet the same fans want to brag about our team being the toughest and the baddest, while the majority of other teams play a more finesse style.

I once heard Chad Brown say something along the lines of "The Steelers ram their heads into people harder than anyone else. It knocks the other team down, but it eventually takes a toll on their own players, as well."

FanSince72
11-28-2012, 06:03 PM
I once heard Chad Brown say something along the lines of "The Steelers ram their heads into people harder than anyone else. It knocks the other team down, but it eventually takes a toll on their own players, as well."



Perhaps many of them have studied under Gus Frerotte. :noidea:

Hawaii 5-0
11-28-2012, 06:52 PM
is it possible?

http://i.imgur.com/6TY9d.jpg

Riddle_Of_Steel
11-28-2012, 07:21 PM
it seems WE are losing players at a faster rate because steelers are predisposed to steelers information and news and simply dont pay attention to other teams (let alone the league as a whole) as closely.


How many other teams:

* Are missing their starting QB
* Missing their backup QB
* Missing 3 of 5 starting Olinemen
* Rotating between 4 different RBs because none of them can stay healthy for more than two weeks at a time
* Missing their best player on defense
* Missing their best WR
* Missing their best pass rusher
* Previously best pass rusher on a gimped up knee
* Lost their starting FB before the season started
* Missing their 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks from this year's draft-- 3rd round pick's injury may be career-ending

I think the only team right now that even compares to us as far as injuries, is Philly, and they are struggling to even get single solitary win.

You can go ahead and look at this through whatever rosey glasses you are wearing, blame it on the players, blame it on the fans, whatever. Clearly, something is amiss in their training regimen.

If the players are not putting in the effort-- that is STILL a problem for training department to solve, as well as the coaches.

It is not just this year either. Did we ever have the same 5 Olinemen for two consectuvie games in the last 3 seasons? We have not had Woodley and Harrison in peak shape and on the field simultaneously since 2010.

After while you should start to see a pattern emerging.

SoCalFan
11-28-2012, 07:34 PM
Thanks for this thread! I have been saying this for a few years now as I am tired of limping into the post season!

tony hipchest
11-28-2012, 08:52 PM
How many other teams:

* Are missing their starting QB
* Missing their backup QB
* Missing 3 of 5 starting Olinemen
* Rotating between 4 different RBs because none of them can stay healthy for more than two weeks at a time
* Missing their best player on defense
* Missing their best WR
* Missing their best pass rusher
* Previously best pass rusher on a gimped up knee
* Lost their starting FB before the season started
* Missing their 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks from this year's draft-- 3rd round pick's injury may be career-ending

I think the only team right now that even compares to us as far as injuries, is Philly, and they are struggling to even get single solitary win.

You can go ahead and look at this through whatever rosey glasses you are wearing, blame it on the players, blame it on the fans, whatever. Clearly, something is amiss in their training regimen.


.dude... ive already listed each and every one of those players. are you saying that since no other team has the exact same injuries as the steelers, that something is clearly "amiss in their regimen"? that is clearly a stretch of deductive reasoning. washingtn and the bungles have both been decimated with injuries this year, along with philly (just like green bay was in their sb year). plenty of teams have sat their starting qb's due to injuries.

i know what the hell i am talking about and backed it up with facts and specific examples, but since you seem to think you know what you are talking about as well, why dont you give some specific examples of what could possibly be amiss with the steelers conditioning program or the professional trainers hired to impliment it, and i will take off the "rosey glasses" and give them consideration.

deal?

(i wont hold my breath).

teegre
11-28-2012, 11:11 PM
Perhaps many of them have studied under Gus Frerotte. :noidea:

Nicely played. :wink02:

Fire Arians
11-29-2012, 12:04 AM
How many other teams:

* Are missing their starting QB
* Missing their backup QB
* Missing 3 of 5 starting Olinemen
* Rotating between 4 different RBs because none of them can stay healthy for more than two weeks at a time
* Missing their best player on defense
* Missing their best WR
* Missing their best pass rusher
* Previously best pass rusher on a gimped up knee
* Lost their starting FB before the season started
* Missing their 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks from this year's draft-- 3rd round pick's injury may be career-ending.

i thought it was just me, but we possibly have the worst injury list 2 years in a row

CanuckCurtain
11-29-2012, 12:10 AM
Some of it is just pure bad luck for us. Our own lineman taking out other linemen by falling into the back of their legs. Ben getting a fluke injury. Troy having the most severe and mysterious calf injury in history. Leftwich hurting himself while running for a TD.

I agree. A lot of fluke injuries on the list mixed with a little bit of players not taking trainers/ coaches advice = this debacle.

good food for thought tony

steelfury02
11-29-2012, 09:04 AM
Tony, i hear ya - I completely get that the Steelers have the people that are "top of the class"

I believe in a fresh look at things no matter what - in other words "don't drink your own bathwater." Basically, I'd like to read or find something about how they are objectively looking at their approaches. Even though they might be the best at everything in the training and conditioning categories - their ideas that "have to be right" need to be challenged by someone from the outside. Now - I won't assume that this doesn't happen in some sort of re-evaluation - but, if someone in the Pittsburgh media did a story on this - it would be award worthy- or maybe they have - and they aren't doing a great job of selling the piece.

Riddle_Of_Steel
11-29-2012, 02:03 PM
dude... ive already listed each and every one of those players. are you saying that since no other team has the exact same injuries as the steelers, that something is clearly "amiss in their regimen"?

No, because the Steelers and their list of injuries to critical players over the last 3 seasons paints a clear and repetitive pattern.

If it was just this year this was happening, your arguments would have some merit. The Packers had a bad year in 2010 with injuries, but have not since then. The Eagles have less injuries to critical players right now and they are a shambles.

that is clearly a stretch of deductive reasoning. washingtn and the bungles have both been decimated with injuries this year, along with philly (just like green bay was in their sb year).

No, it's not a stretch at all. Other teams have ben NEARLY as decimated with injuries, but not for 3 or 4 seasons in a row. If it happens, once, you can chalk it up to coincidence, or lazy players or whatever. When it becomes a systemic and repetitive problem, a pattern has been established.

The team, coaches, and staff get paid to win championships. If the same obstacle keeps coming up year after year to derail that endeavor, you can place balme where you want to-- but the fact remains, something is wrong with their conditioning that is causing them to keep getting injured. THAT is some simple, straightforward deductive reasoning.


i know what the hell i am talking about and backed it up with facts and specific examples,

Nope-- you posted a bunch of quotes from the training staff, blaming it on the players' laziness. Hmmm...what would be their incentive to blame the problem on the players, rather than their training program?

Are we to believe that the Steelers are the only team with lazy players? Why aren't the other 31 teams having so many injuries for sveeral season in a row? it's not like the Steelers draft all their players from a special "lazy guys only" pool.

but since you seem to think you know what you are talking about as well, why dont you give some specific examples of what could possibly be amiss with the steelers conditioning program or the professional trainers hired to impliment it, and i will take off the "rosey glasses" and give them consideration.


* Too many breaks and days off for veterans.
* Too soft a training camp (Tomlin's camps are well-known for this)
* Allowing the players to freelance during the offseason as far as their training programs (or lack thereof)
* Not doing the right types of excercises and stretches
* Skipping pre-game warmups

Just for starters.....

steelfury02
11-29-2012, 02:08 PM
No, because the Steelers and their list of injuries to critical players over the last 3 seasons paints a clear and repetitive pattern.

If it was just this year this was happening, your arguments would have some merit. The Packers had a bad year in 2010 with injuries, but have not since then. The Eagles have less injuries to critical players right now and they are a shambles.



No, it's not a stretch at all. Other teams have ben NEARLY as decimated with injuries, but not for 3 or 4 seasons in a row. If it happens, once, you can chalk it up to coincidence, or lazy players or whatever. When it becomes a systemic and repetitive problem, a pattern has been established.

The team, coaches, and staff get paid to win championships. If the same obstacle keeps coming up year after year to derail that endeavor, you can place balme where you want to-- but the fact remains, something is wrong with their conditioning that is causing them to keep getting injured. THAT is some simple, straightforward deductive reasoning.




Nope-- you posted a bunch of quotes from the training staff, blaming it on the players' laziness. Hmmm...what would be their incentive to blame the problem on the players, rather than their training program?




* Too many breaks and days off for veterans.
* Too soft a training camp (Tomlin's camps are well-known for this)
* Allowing the players to freelance during the offseason as far as their training programs (or lack thereof)
* Not doing the right types of excercises and stretches
* Skipping pre-game warmups

Just for starters.....

Steelers Nation demands a tribunal! lol. It is maddening - and while I don't have the inside source to understand what actually takes place - I just know that if the injuries keep piling up this season, and into next - I don't think it is a simple as an article stating all the possibilities. There needs to be an investigation if it continues and some consultation from outside sources.

Riddle_Of_Steel
11-29-2012, 02:12 PM
i thought it was just me, but we possibly have the worst injury list 2 years in a row

According to Hipchest, there is no problem-- the Steelers players are just lazy and don't want to listen to their trainers. The conditioning program is top-notch and has no issues.

We know this because the training staff told us so.

tony hipchest
11-29-2012, 03:01 PM
According to Hipchest, there is no problem-- the Steelers players are just lazy and don't want to listen to their trainers. The conditioning program is top-notch and has no issues.

We know this because the training staff told us so.

just because you are flat out wrong with your hypothesis and conjecture is no reason to build a strawman and flat out lie.

i never quoted the training staff and i never said the players are lazy.

learn to read.

i did say the steelers play a more physical brand of football than the majority of teams, something that is lost upon all the make believers who KNOW our training staff is substandard.

i also know that football professionals who have put together and supervised training staffs and entire front offices such as gil brandt and pat kirwan said as soon as they saw the new CBA w/ reduced practices and hitting that it was a team like the steelers who would be affected and most hurt by it.

i side with the pros, not the keyboard jockeys and speculators.

Hawaii 5-0
11-29-2012, 03:24 PM
i side with the pros, not the keyboard jockeys and speculators.

come on, what do the pros know compared to us internet geniuses? :grin:

Riddle_Of_Steel
11-29-2012, 05:29 PM
just because you are flat out wrong with your hypothesis and conjecture is no reason to build a strawman and flat out lie.

i never quoted the training staff and i never said the players are lazy.

learn to read.



Thank you for your concerns-- I can read just fine.

The article you posted, whether it by written by you, the training staff, or Jim Wexell, is nothing more than a long-winded excuse blaming the poor conditioning on the players by citing ONE, SINGLE player as an example (Keenan Lewis in this case-- who has not missed a single game due to injury yet, if I am not mistaken).

It goes on with this excuse-making for another three paragraphs using another anecdotal example dredged up from NFL history to support the claim it is the players' fault they are not physically ready to perform at a high level without breaking all the time.

i did say the steelers play a more physical brand of football than the majority of teams, something that is lost upon all the make believers who KNOW our training staff is substandard.

You're right-- the Steelers are the only NFL team that hits hard and plays "physical".

That 49ers defense? They're soft. Ndumakong Suh? He is just a little kitten.

it sure looked to me just a couple weeks ago that even the lowly Chiefs play a pretty physical breed of football. I hear the Giants do a pretty good impression of playing physical as well.

The Saints played such physical defense they were literally trying to take people's heads off in games, but I don't see half their team walking around on crutches in street clothes.

You seem to think you are so much smarter than I, and you have all the facts on your side-- please present me with conclusive statistical/factual proof the Steelers play more "physical" football than the other 31 clubs in the NFL.

How exactly do you quantify that? How does that affect the number of injuries to our players, as opposed to the opposing teams? You seem to be content to hinge your entire argument on a very vague concept and then cancelling out the sound logic I used to come to my conclusions.

i also know that football professionals who have put together and supervised training staffs and entire front offices such as gil brandt and pat kirwan said as soon as they saw the new CBA w/ reduced practices and hitting that it was a team like the steelers who would be affected and most hurt by it.

i side with the pros, not the keyboard jockeys and speculators.

So, in other words, you are throwing your hands up in the air-- BECAUSE YOU YOURSELF DON'T KNOW A FUCKING THING, and simply deferring it to "the experts", whom we routinely bash around here on per thread basis for their inaccurate predictions, and cluelessness about the Steelers.

Maybe the Steelers DO play "more physical football" than other ball clubs. Then the logical conclusion to come to based on all the injuries, is that they need a training staff that is better suited to designing a program for specifically, the Steelers and their style of play.

Blaming it on the players, their style of play, etc. is still just making excuses. If season after season keeps swirling down the toilet bowl because we can't keep guys healthy, I doubt that telling Mr. Rooney: "Heck, we can't help it-- we play more physical football than everybody else!" is going to cut it. Results are all that matters.

Maybe the players are lazy and that is why their conditioning program is not working. Either way, that is still the rsponsibility of the front office to fix-- the caoch neds to motiviate his guys better, whatever. The point is-- something behind the scenes in the org's front office/staff still has to happen to fix the problem.

tony hipchest
11-29-2012, 06:31 PM
You seem to think you are so much smarter than I, and you have all the facts on your side-- please present me with conclusive statistical/factual proof the Steelers play more "physical" football than the other 31 clubs in the NFL.

there you go, lying again. i said the majority of teams. :mg: they pass the eyeball test. EVERYBODY knows the steelers are one of the most physical, hardest hitting teams. you must not know or believe this being that you cited the "Cheifs". :rofl:

How


So, in other words, you are throwing your hands up in the air-- BECAUSE YOU YOURSELF DON'T KNOW A FUCKING THING, and simply deferring it to "the experts", whom we routinely bash around here on per thread basis for their inaccurate predictions, and cluelessness about the Steelers.

idiots around here routinely bash the players, coaches, training staff, etc. i dont give a shit who "we routinely bash.

experts and paid professionals, front office execs typically know more about the inner workings of things than keyboard jockey fans. throwing your hands up, i expect you will deny this as well. :thumbsup:



Blaming it on the players, their style of play, etc. is still just making excuses.

blaming it on the training staff is just making excuses as well. :noidea:


there you go. the rooneys know more than you. their training staff is fine. injuries happen. its a hard hitting game.

fans need to quit whining about it.

Riddle_Of_Steel
11-29-2012, 11:57 PM
there you go, lying again. i said the majority of teams. they pass the eyeball test. EVERYBODY knows the steelers are one of the most physical, hardest hitting teams. you must not know or believe this being that you cited the "Cheifs".

Alright, wiseguy-- I'll play along.

You say the Steelers play more physical football than a MAJORITY of the teams. So that means that at least one team plays more physical football than the Steelers, right?

So tell me, specifically, which teams are more physical? And then, are any of those teams suffering the same yearly rash of injuries If not, your theory is shot to shit.

idiots around here routinely bash the players, coaches, training staff, etc. i dont give a shit who "we routinely bash.

I am pretty sure I have heard you bitch about the "experts at ESPN" on more than one occaision around here. I am pretty sure I recall you saying Warren Sapp was an idiot because he picked us to finish 3rd in the AFC North this year.

Even if you aren't one of the ones who routinely questions these experts, you are still just deferring your opinion to someone you perceive as "knowing better than any of us". You aren't presenting any opinion of your own in this regard. You are thowing your arms up in the air and letting someone else argue for you,just like I already said.

experts and paid professionals, front office execs typically know more about the inner workings of things than keyboard jockey fans. throwing your hands up, i expect you will deny this as well.

So can you or one of your experts explain then why our team seems to be the only one that loses half of its roster on a yearly basis, since we've already established that you cannot blame it purely on "physical play"?

As I already stated, even if the Steelers are playing a more physical breed of football than the other 31 clubs (you haven't established this yet, in any way, shape, or form), based on the current yearly list of injuries--something must change. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, yet expecting different results. Clearly, whatever they are doing right now-- does not work.

blaming it on the training staff is just making excuses as well.

Only on your planet...

If the brake job I just paid someone to do on my car does not work afterwards-- you blame the mechanic that worked on your car. If the heart transplant they just did for you does not work-- you blame the surgeon that messed you up.

If your training staff is not properly preparing the players for the game, and everybody is getting injured every season like they are-- you blame the folks who were specifically tasked with, and paid to condition your players and prepare them physically.

Logic 101.

Riddle_Of_Steel
11-30-2012, 12:01 AM
Here's another brain-teaser for you:

You claim there is nothing wrong with the Steeler's training and conditioning program-- all these injuries are just a product of their physical play. They are sooooo much more physical than the other 31 teams.....

Did they only start playing this physical breed of football in the last few seasons since Tomlin came onboard? They weren't playing physical ball under Cowher? How interesting....I don't recall so many walking wounded in any of the last few seasons the Chin was with us.

tony hipchest
11-30-2012, 01:54 AM
• Linebackers coach Keith Butler also has some goals for productive but frequently injured linebacker LaMarr Woodley: Do more conditioning work. Woodley (high ankle sprain) hasn’t practiced this week and isn’t expected to play in Baltimore. “The thing I will tell him is he needs to get his hamstrings in shape,” Butler said. “He worked harder than he ever has to get in shape, but he needs to work on his hamstrings.” Woodley missed one game and most of two others with injuries this season.

go figure. a coach putting the honus on a player to do MORE conditioning work on his frail hamstrings.

woodley is probably too busy practicing his stupid post sack flying leg kick.

I am pretty sure I have heard you bitch about the "experts at ESPN" on more than one occaision around here.

you are "pretty sure"??? :toofunny:

more like- you are pretty wrong. :link:

i wont even dignifiy these desperate and deflective lies.

i have a brain teaser for you, once you get a clue.

in the meantime i will sit back and LMAO at all the people who think the trainers and conditioning staff should put in OT and take time out from their lives to go over to casey hamptins house every night and cook and spoon feed him his dinner.

:doh:

also i will let you ponder why james harrison is probably the most physical hitter in the nfl (im sure you will contend hundreds are more physical and hit harder) PLUS one of the most conditioned & hardest workers, yet still sustains injuries.

:shout:- FIRE THE TRAINING STAFF!!!!

:jerkit:

steelfury02
11-30-2012, 08:53 AM
• Linebackers coach Keith Butler also has some goals for productive but frequently injured linebacker LaMarr Woodley: Do more conditioning work. Woodley (high ankle sprain) hasn’t practiced this week and isn’t expected to play in Baltimore. “The thing I will tell him is he needs to get his hamstrings in shape,” Butler said. “He worked harder than he ever has to get in shape, but he needs to work on his hamstrings.” Woodley missed one game and most of two others with injuries this season.

go figure. a coach putting the honus on a player to do MORE conditioning work on his frail hamstrings.

woodley is probably too busy practicing his stupid post sack flying leg kick.



you are "pretty sure"??? :toofunny:

more like- you are pretty wrong. :link:

i wont even dignifiy these desperate and deflective lies.

i have a brain teaser for you, once you get a clue.

in the meantime i will sit back and LMAO at all the people who think the trainers and conditioning staff should put in OT and take time out from their lives to go over to casey hamptins house every night and cook and spoon feed him his dinner.

:doh:

also i will let you ponder why james harrison is probably the most physical hitter in the nfl (im sure you will contend hundreds are more physical and hit harder) PLUS one of the most conditioned & hardest workers, yet still sustains injuries.

:shout:- FIRE THE TRAINING STAFF!!!!

:jerkit:

I'm done speculating about who is responsible for the injury plague. What is the solution then? If we go into next couple of seasons with the same shit happening - it just isn't about being the most physical team anymore -it will develop into questioning their attitude about putting in the time to optimize their health

Hawaii 5-0
11-30-2012, 12:34 PM
I'm done speculating about who is responsible for the injury plague. What is the solution then? If we go into next couple of seasons with the same shit happening - it just isn't about being the most physical team anymore -it will develop into questioning their attitude about putting in the time to optimize their health

I'm not sure what the reasons are behind all of these injuries either.

however, I do think this is an issue the Steelers need to take a good hard look at to see if any changes should be implemented to improve the players' conditioning and susceptibility to injuries.

Riddle_Of_Steel
11-30-2012, 12:56 PM
• Linebackers coach Keith Butler also has some goals for productive but frequently injured linebacker LaMarr Woodley: Do more conditioning work. Woodley (high ankle sprain) hasn’t practiced this week and isn’t expected to play in Baltimore. “The thing I will tell him is he needs to get his hamstrings in shape,” Butler said. “He worked harder than he ever has to get in shape, but he needs to work on his hamstrings.” Woodley missed one game and most of two others with injuries this season.

go figure. a coach putting the honus on a player to do MORE conditioning work on his frail hamstrings.

woodley is probably too busy practicing his stupid post sack flying leg kick.

So you have brought us full-circle now, and we are back to your original assertion that the Steelers layers are lazy, and that is the only problem going on behind the scenes (sure).

So...are the Steelers the only team with lazy players? I don't see any of the other "hard-hitting" teams with half their star players in walking boots and street clothes.

You have yet to answer any of my challenges, as far as why we are the only "hard-hitting" team that has such an extensive list of injuries, year after year. It is not just this season I am looking at.

You have yet to answer why we did not have this problem under Bill Cowher.

All you have done is all of your arguments is throw your arms up in the air and blame the players for their laziness. Guess what, champ? Even if the players are lazy, then the training staff needs to adapt their training program accordingly. Ultimately, the readiness of teh team, from a conditioning standpoint-- is THEIR RESPONSIBILITY, just as much as it is on the players. If the players are not willing to put in the time, then they need to make the mandatory training sessions more high-impact or something.

Whatever tyhey are doing-- it is not working, and this is a new developement the last few seasons. We had physical players the whole time Cowher was with us-- yet we did nto have all the injuries.


you are "pretty sure"??? :toofunny:

more like- you are pretty wrong. :link:

i wont even dignifiy these desperate and deflective lies.

So you are saying you agreed with Warren Sapp's assertion the last two seasons that we are "old and done"? You went along with his assertion this year that the Steelers are a 6-10 team?

Either way-- it is a moot point. You are still deferring your opinion to an "expert" because you yourself don't know a thing.

i have a brain teaser for you, once you get a clue.

Well.....what is your brain teaser?

in the meantime i will sit back and LMAO at all the people who think the trainers and conditioning staff should put in OT and take time out from their lives to go over to casey hamptins house every night and cook and spoon feed him his dinner.

You are just being argumentative, which is prety clear to anybody who reads this thread.

I am not trying to make some cententious stand or earth-shattering revelation here. if your team is consistently near the top of teh league, as far as injuries to key players, repeatedly, year after year, something about their training regimen must change.

That is common sense. I didn't say they need to spoon-feed Casey Hampton-- don't be a tard.

:doh:

also i will let you ponder why james harrison is probably the most physical hitter in the nfl (im sure you will contend hundreds are more physical and hit harder) PLUS one of the most conditioned & hardest workers, yet still sustains injuries.
:shout:- FIRE THE TRAINING STAFF!!!!

:jerkit:

Aldon Smith is not a physical player? How about Suh? Von Miller might have something to say about that. Tamba Hali was manhandling our Oline a couple weeks back.

Your excuses and "arguments" are pretty thin, my man.

Also, I never said to fire anybody-- that is YOUR STRAWMAN. i simple think they need to do some analysis and re-evaluate their current methods-- they obviously (to everyone except "hipchest") need some tweaking and adjustment.

I don't know why you have to always be so argumentative in every thread and jump to such extremes.

Riddle_Of_Steel
11-30-2012, 01:15 PM
I'm not sure what the reasons are behind all of these injuries either.

however, I do think this is an issue the Steelers need to take a good hard look at to see if any changes should be implemented to improve the players' conditioning and susceptibility to injuries.

Not according to Tony. The Steelers are just lazy and they started being one of the hardest hitting teams only since Tomlin became head coach.

tony hipchest
11-30-2012, 06:05 PM
Not according to Tony. The Steelers are just lazy and they started being one of the hardest hitting teams only since Tomlin became head coach.you do know that continuing to lie about my stance doesnt make yours any more correct, right?

i never said the steelers are lazy, infact, i just pointed out that james harrison is probably 1 of the hardest working, most conditioned atheletes in the nfl. yet still injured.

polamalu trains with marinovich. while unorthodox and low impact, it is designed for flexibility and limberness. he gave that up (what has specifically worked for him) this offseason to be with the team, and his calf hasnt been right all year. he was asked what more he could do to heal quicker. he didnt mention better trainers. instead he said "testosterone and HGH".

i guess steelerfans would be happier if our teams conditioning program was cheating like all these others in the league. :noidea:

ike taylor trains every offseason with tom shaw every summer. was one of the 1st pros to do so, and now half a dozen players join him. hes never really been injured even though he is one of the hardest hitting sure tackling CB's in the league.

james farrior was one who worked with him. only missed a few games in his entire career to injury.

ryan clark trains rigorously in the offseason and during it. really only misses a game due to concussions and sickle cell, yet he is one of the hardest hitting safeties in the league.

i can give you a list of players who attend the weekly massage sessions hosted at his house at night.

i can also give you a list of the OL who get together and train and condition at Team Esi in pittsburgh.

the point is in addition to what the team provides, it is STILL on the players to be in the proper shape, and even when they are (harrison, troy) sometimes that is not enough.

these are grown men, who have jobs as professionals. they arent in college and weightlifting isnt a class they have to attend and pass. the steelers trainers and conditioning team are not their to baby sit them.

anyone who thinks otherwise, just isnt really familiar with how things work in this profession.

do you think the bears and 49ers training staffs forced walter payton, and jerry rice to go out and run hills?

some atheletes work hard enough just to get by. others work HARD out of fear that someone out there is working even harder.

to quote the article above, if everybody was the "gold standard" then it wouldnt be the gold standard.

Riddle_Of_Steel
11-30-2012, 06:06 PM
Look, Tony. I don't feel like arguing with you-- this is going nowhere and it is all for naught.

I am not sayig we need to fire anybody, or that the training staff sucks. They just need to look at teh results the last few seasons, and possibly look at revamping the training program a little bit. OTA's have been shortened, yes, but maybe Tomlin should think about turning up the jiuce a little on his training camps. They are notorious for being soft, which has not really worked I don't think. It is hard to argue against our list of injuriesd the last two seasons.

Guys shouldn't be "playing themselves to game shape" like Big Snack has been doing the last few seasons. They should be ready to go come day 1 of the season.

Anything beyond the above-- and it isn't what I was trying to convey.

SteelMusic
09-10-2013, 07:30 AM
Bump....

After all of the injuries in week one, it looks like this trend continues this year. Did any other team have this many key injuries in week one?

tony hipchest
09-10-2013, 08:46 AM
Bump....

After all of the injuries in week one, it looks like this trend continues this year. Did any other team have this many key injuries in week one?Philly had this many in the first 2 days of camp.

you are not suggesting that the strength and conditioning coaches would have prevented DeCastro from intentionally blowing up Pouncey's knee are you?

or LS Howling from being a tiny smurf?

or foote from being old?

I'll give you that they could have possibly helped reduce the likelyhood of the foote injury, but not eliminate the chances all together.

GBMelBlount
09-10-2013, 08:58 AM
I apologize if this information has already been presented, BUT

Does anyone have any statistics showing our starters games missed vs. the league ave?

I think this stat would be very telling.

PeckerWood
09-10-2013, 09:56 AM
what about the reduced practice at TOA and training camp signed by players and owners in the last contract? could this be factoring in more injuries?

tony hipchest
09-10-2013, 10:01 AM
what about the reduced practice at TOA and training camp signed by players and owners in the last contract? could this be factoring in more injuries?As soon as the ink dried on that deal, expert analyst Pat Kirwan said to expect many more injuries, because of just that.

he was right. Ive heard plenty of retired and current coaches and players agree.

Steel Peon
09-10-2013, 10:01 AM
Bad conditioning. This is the one that many fans are currently questioning. What the heck our are trainers doing, or not doing, that is leading to this current rash of injuries?
A good example of this to consider is Buddy Morris. Buddy was the legendary strength coach of the Pitt Panthers during Pitt's heyday of the 70s and 80s............He had a lot of research and new exercise to combat injuries. If you walked into one of Buddy's workouts, you would see some athletes doing things like terminal knee extensions, rotator cuff work, lots and lots of core work (Buddy really brought the core stuff to the forefront), medicine ball exercises, tissue therapy, and a myriad of other things.

Guess what? None of it worked. The Browns were devastated by injuries and Davis was fired
I guess I have to agree with this, seeing as I had the same basic impression about the team on Sunday.
The team looks under-disciplined, and under-conditioned...........We're starting to look like the Browns, or worse.

EbonySteel86
09-10-2013, 03:48 PM
Philly had this many in the first 2 days of camp.

you are not suggesting that the strength and conditioning coaches would have prevented DeCastro from intentionally blowing up Pouncey's knee are you?

or LS Howling from being a tiny smurf?

or foote from being old?

I'll give you that they could have possibly helped reduce the likelyhood of the foote injury, but not eliminate the chances all together.

DeCastro should get fined $100k like Suh, for that hit on Pouncy.

Da Pimp
09-10-2013, 06:09 PM
i don't disagree with the article at all - i'm a trainer myself - i don't need to educate myself - and the "will" of the individual/player is key. The only thing i WILL say...is that all trainers are not created equal. The conditioning job is to not only 'condition' but to do the best to prevent injury as well.
Are they doing our team justice? How are they in comparison with the rest of the team's trainers in the league? Can we do and hire better? Are they working with each and every player at a better-than-satisfactory level?
These are questions that we can only guess or very loosely debate since we're not in the facility. Can trainers prevent injuries? No. But the amount of them (and this goes back through all of last year too) here definitely makes one wonder, though.

Some of the article was accurate, but certainly not completely. I know Buddy Morris. He lost gigs for reasons other than players getting hurt. Any how, the one area they could look into is how much free weight training are they doing. If they are relying more on machines, that is the FIRST area you look to change. Machines suck. Free weight training - especially with bands, chains, etc. - leads to stronger, better prepared bodies. SF is a big time free weight team, and they suffer few injuries, especially the O line. Last year, I believe every starter started in every game, including the post season. Would free weight training prevented Pouncey from blowing his ACL by the DeCastro hit? Highly unlikely. But there is often a direct correlation between teams doing a lot of free weight training and avoiding injuries. Another advocate of heavy free weight training, to the point of personally monitoring free weight work outs? Just some dude who is head coach of Alabama. I think his name is Nick Saban or something like that.

SoCalFan
09-10-2013, 10:16 PM
Thanks for creating this thread, I have been calling for a training staff overhaul for a few years now. It seems as of late the injury bug hurts us more than any other team year after year!