PDA

View Full Version : Thoughts on the Haley offense


GoFor7
12-10-2012, 09:32 PM
I'm not seeing how this offense is better than the one last year. They are 20th or something around that in scoring and have only hit the 30 point mark once. It hasn't kept Ben healthy. And frankly, I see some similar bone-headed plays that Arians got crucified for.

Ben is a top five QB (yes, I know some of you hate hearing that), but this offense is designed to make him more of a game manager. Would anyone think holding back Manning, Brady, Rodgers, or Brees makes sense? Yet in Pittsburgh, the star QB has to be "put in his place" because "he only cares about his stats," or they want to see an out-dated style of football.

You guys want the offense to score points like the Patriots and Packers? Guess what, dink-and-dunk isn't going to do that. The Steelers are still of the mentality that time of possession is the be all end all, and they need to get out of it. They have the weapons to be a downfield passing team, yet they don't want to do that. Why? Haley sure wasn't scared about going downfield in Arizona. Perhaps Art has too much say in the offense. Regardless, if the Steelers don't start playing to their strengths then they won't be better than 20th in scoring. The offense is also hurting by the lack of turnovers generated by the defense and the complete and utter embarrassment that is the Steelers special teams. The Steelers need more points faster, not more time of possession.

In the latter part of the 70's dynasty, the Steelers went from a run heavy, defensive team to a pass heavy, high-scoring offensive team. Did yinzer nation get all up in arms when that dynasty won two more super bowls playing that way? Did Art Rooney Sr. go on media tours proclaiming a return to a ground-heavy attack? Steeler fans, learn from your history. Don't cover it up over some misguided notion that you don't want Ben on a pedestal.

TRH
12-10-2012, 09:56 PM
it certainly started off good, but has tailed off considerably.
Our line has been riddled with injury, Pouncey has been playing below the standard, and those have helped diminish our run game.

The one aspect of the "Haley" offense i'm disappointed with is our complete lack of utilizing the outside. We run up the middle, Then we run up the middle again. Then we once again...run up the middle...even if it means running into our own guys where there's no hole.
And the passing. Most all the calls are down the field or slants of some sort in the middle. Rivers and the Chargers absolutely killed us on Sunday by having the receivers run turning routes to the outside and they kept completeing passes near the sideline over and over and over. I'm not understanding why we can't incorporate these type of routes either. Thats how Romo uses Dez Bryant.

I hate to say it, but once again - we are the leagues most predictable offense - often one can call plays from the comfort of your own couch at home. Hell, analysts in the booth do it.
I was hoping for more of a "surprise" attack but we seem to be doing the same thing. Still hoping this will change.

BLACK_AND_YELLOW
12-10-2012, 09:58 PM
It's going to take more than 1 season to get the offense going, but it should get better next year just to many injuries on the o-line & also Ben being hurt.

GoFor7
12-10-2012, 10:03 PM
It's going to take more than 1 season to get the offense going, but it should get better next year just to many injuries on the o-line & also Ben being hurt.

Okay, if it takes more than one season for the players to get it then the offense is too complicated and too full of Haley's ego. You think just because it's a new offense players forget what they've been doing all their lives?

tony hipchest
12-10-2012, 10:23 PM
Ben is a top five QB (yes, I know some of you hate hearing that),

who the FUCK are you talking to??? :dang:

are you trapped in your own little cyberworld?

GoFor7
12-10-2012, 10:25 PM
who the FUCK are you talking to??? :dang:

are you trapped in your own little cyberworld?

You didn't read any of the posts when Haley was first hired and Ben was "ignoring" him? Hell, did you even read any of the posts from yesterday? It's not exactly a secret that Pittsburgh isn't a QB-friendly city.

StainlessStill
12-10-2012, 10:44 PM
How can you run ANY type of offense, ESPECIALLY a new one for the season when every single one of your offensive lineman miss time (most on IR) your franchise QB miss's time, his BACKUP miss's time, all your running backs miss time & your receiving core missing time? How is an offense supposed to produce any sort of chemistry when Sunday morning you tell your center you have to play left guard today? It's getting RIDICULOUS.

Other than Ben's magic, I can't remember a time where this offense was any bits or pieces consistent. We've had to have Pro-Bowl caliber TE's like Heath Miller play as an extra damn tackle his entire career because we can't keep people off our QB, the one supposed to be THROWING it to him.

We have so much talent with potential to score 35 points a game, yet, we barely escape stadiums lucky to score 21 points.

ZoneBlitzer
12-10-2012, 10:54 PM
This offense has been fizzling out for awhile now. I liked the possession game early in the year but they have let go. It's super frustrating to see the talent level on this team straining to score 3 TDs.

BLACK_AND_YELLOW
12-10-2012, 11:00 PM
Okay, if it takes more than one season for the players to get it then the offense is too complicated and too full of Haley's ego. You think just because it's a new offense players forget what they've been doing all their lives?

ask me this when was the last time a team change OC and had a successful season?? Maybe you just had to much of expectations...

PhantomJB93
12-10-2012, 11:01 PM
I thought it was pretty good up until Ben's injury. I thought situational playcalling up to that point was better, I thought the schemes were better, I thought the offense as a whole was just operating better overall, and Haley hadn't even fully unleashed his playbook. But when Ben got injured everything kind of went downhill. I thought Haley designed horrible offenses for Leftwich and Batch in his first game, although against the Ravens the playcalling was much better. I'm willing to chalk that up to him being thrown into a bad situation though, for now.

StainlessStill
12-10-2012, 11:04 PM
ask me this when was the last time a team change OC and had a successful season?? Maybe you just had to much of expectations...

This year. Josh McDaniel's and the New England Patriots. Also, only the Patriots can have a guy come off the street and burn defense on a go-route for a touchdown.

Nothing's stopping me. I can go on a goddamn rant all night. Re-watching this game from Sunday makes me want to puke! Some things you miss live & for good measure. This performance against the HAPLESS Chargers and seeing that shitface Rivers yap his jaw is downright infuriating.

BLACK_AND_YELLOW
12-10-2012, 11:08 PM
This year. Josh McDaniel's and the New England Patriots. Also, only the Patriots can have a guy come off the street and burn defense on a go-route for a touchdown.

Nothing's stopping me. I can go on a goddamn rant all night. Re-watching this game from Sunday makes me want to puke! Some things you miss live & for good measure. This performance against the HAPLESS Chargers and seeing that shitface Rivers yap his jaw is downright infuriating.

The playbook for the Pats didn't change it was still the same plays we got a whole to playbook.

Thats why McDaniels called plays for the Pats in the Super Bowl NOTING CHANGED FOR THEM

GoFor7
12-10-2012, 11:10 PM
ask me this when was the last time a team change OC and had a successful season?? Maybe you just had to much of expectations...

Well, the Patriots seem to change OCs often. Been a while since they had a bad season. Also, the Falcons changed both coordinators and are 11-2. Packers have a new OC this year as their old one went on to coach the Dolphins.

Perhaps newly hired coordinators in the NFL have issues checking their egos at the door. Instead of not fixing what isn't broke, they feel the need to overhaul an entire system.

The problem is the Steelers drafted three speedy receivers that can stretch the field, but their not taking advantage of their skills because they think they're minimizing Ben's chances of getting hurt, and they gotta make sure he doesn't become bigger than the Steeler logo. He got hurt already, and he already is bigger than the Steeler logo. Instead of reducing him to dink-and-dunk and bubble screens, maybe they should actually, you know, make the offense revolve around him.

StainlessStill
12-10-2012, 11:12 PM
Every year is different. Every team is different. We've seen MANY variations of the New England offense over the past few years. For instance, the Patriots had one of the most dangerous vertical passing offense's in football in 2007 with Randy Moss. That was then transformed into an offense that was heavily paced, which in turn, molded into more of a frequent fast paced possession team with a LACK of running game.

This season, all of a sudden, New England is beating down teams in the 4th QRT running the football, something that was virtually NON EXISTENT just a season ago. It's crazy how most of these guys, who never even played in McDaniel's system, plays it like they were born into it.

I can't find one game where the Patriots beat themselves. Not one.

austinfrench76
12-10-2012, 11:13 PM
I agree that it takes time to adjust and that's the biggest problem. It's just a reality that alot of things are different. I don't think it's ego related it seems like all of the pre season talk was about this very topic. And that Ben and Haley hated each other, which we know isn't true now, but also that it would take time to get this offense going. Some of our draft picks are going to be special in his offense and our next big pick up needs to be a TE so we can pair him with Heath. That would be a helluva combo! We were grwoing, until BB wbet down and yesterday was a cluster f$^k all around so I am trying to chalk it up to that. We'll see...

MACH1
12-10-2012, 11:16 PM
Okay, if it takes more than one season for the players to get it then the offense is too complicated and too full of Haley's ego. You think just because it's a new offense players forget what they've been doing all their lives?

Ben said it takes a minimum of 3 years to learn the genius of arians O.

BLACK_AND_YELLOW
12-10-2012, 11:18 PM
Well, the Patriots seem to change OCs often. Been a while since they had a bad season. Also, the Falcons changed both coordinators and are 11-2. Packers have a new OC this year as their old one went on to coach the Dolphins.

Perhaps newly hired coordinators in the NFL have issues checking their egos at the door. Instead of not fixing what isn't broke, they feel the need to overhaul an entire system.

The problem is the Steelers drafted three speedy receivers that can stretch the field, but their not taking advantage of their skills because they think they're minimizing Ben's chances of getting hurt, and they gotta make sure he doesn't become bigger than the Steeler logo. He got hurt already, and he already is bigger than the Steeler logo. Instead of reducing him to dink-and-dunk and bubble screens, maybe they should actually, you know, make the offense revolve around him.

Like I said not to many teams can do good when they change OC but tbh we all know that ATL is overrated so no use of talking about them and Joe philbin was not the one calling the plays for the Packers, Mike McCarthy calls the plays...

I wouldn't call us a dink-and-dunk offense, we just changed to a quick passing offense cause of our horrible o-line, if you want to know what dink-and-dunk looks like go look at the 49ers offense

GoFor7
12-10-2012, 11:22 PM
Ben said it takes a minimum of 3 years to learn the genius of arians O.

This kind of stuff makes me roll my eyes, not just regarding the Steelers but any team in general. It's as if you need a PhD to play football today.

SteelBobbleHead
12-11-2012, 01:57 AM
This team is a dink and dunk (aka quick pass) offense now. While it has done what Rooney wanted in keeping Ben upright, it has taken away the the strength of this receiving core. More particularly, Mike Wallace's strength. I still believe you need to occasionally attempt to go deep. That in itself will help open up the offense by keeping the safeties back. More passing and running room.

WokeUpWithaWoodley
12-11-2012, 03:08 AM
The problem with our offense stems from Mr Rooney. He wants the Steelers to be like the Steelers of the past. Which is run heavy and the idea of you controlling the clock. Which is not how this league operates. I feel like Haley is in a situation in which he wants to obey what Mr Rooney wants to keep his job. Haley was very successful as the cards Oc because he was allowed to pass as many times as he wanted to. And the Steelers front office needs to realize that now a days you pass to set up the run later on. We should be throwing the ball 35 plus with our talent at wr.

Another thing is In order to have a 2 back system you must have a speed guy and power guy. We currently have to slow power guys with mendy on the bench. Mendy needs to be back in the game cause he had the ablility to break a long run or screen pass. Dwyer and Redman will not provide us with that splash play we are looking for. Mendy must be given chance to prove what he can do. Just give him the ball 12 to 15 times against the cowboys. Remember his first game back everyone on this board noticed the difference in having a speed back who could bounce out when the middle was clogged which it is most of the time. Watching Dwyer is frustrating cause you know he doesn't gave the speed to bounce out thus teams aren't scared of that and they stack 8 guys in the box to stuff the middle

SteelBobbleHead
12-11-2012, 04:17 AM
The problem with our offense stems from Mr Rooney. He wants the Steelers to be like the Steelers of the past. Which is run heavy and the idea of you controlling the clock. Which is not how this league operates. I feel like Haley is in a situation in which he wants to obey what Mr Rooney wants to keep his job. Haley was very successful as the cards Oc because he was allowed to pass as many times as he wanted to. And the Steelers front office needs to realize that now a days you pass to set up the run later on. We should be throwing the ball 35 plus with our talent at wr.

Another thing is In order to have a 2 back system you must have a speed guy and power guy. We currently have to slow power guys with mendy on the bench. Mendy needs to be back in the game cause he had the ablility to break a long run or screen pass. Dwyer and Redman will not provide us with that splash play we are looking for. Mendy must be given chance to prove what he can do. Just give him the ball 12 to 15 times against the cowboys. Remember his first game back everyone on this board noticed the difference in having a speed back who could bounce out when the middle was clogged which it is most of the time. Watching Dwyer is frustrating cause you know he doesn't gave the speed to bounce out thus teams aren't scared of that and they stack 8 guys in the box to stuff the middle

I'm really not sure how you can call this offense a "run heavy" offense. Right now this offense has attempted 483 passes and 336 rushes. That's a 59%/41% pass to run ratio. If you take out Antonio Brown's 2 pass attempts but then also take out the 21 QB rushes and 1 idiotic kicker attempt, on a over the head toss from the holder, the ratio becomes even more pass heavy.
This offense utilizes the short passing game to control the clock.

SteelBobbleHead
12-11-2012, 04:36 AM
For what it's worth, it also utilizes that short passing game to keep Ben from taking hits.

Rick5895
12-11-2012, 06:00 AM
The sacks and hits on Ben are down this season. I think the scheme by Haley is fine. But recently and this coincides with the lack of production of our O, we are playing with a 3rd string RT, we have had our all pro Center playing Guard, our OL seems to be continually in flux, we are continually rotating RB's,(as much as continuity along the line is important, so is continuity of the RB) our receivers are dropping too many damn balls, and it's not just dropping the passes, its the timing of it. (eg: both Wallaces and Browns drops on Sunday, if nothing else the catches if made change field position)
Every time we lose, people keep looking for excuses...it's the defense Lebeau must go or it's haleys O, this team lost because the came out on Sunday and thought "we're the Pitsburgh Steelers and we can't be beat" they were flat as a team, no fire, no emotion, no intensity. There is no excuse for that. They blew there emotional "wad" so to speak against the ratbirds and came up flat. Just like all of us they have "off " days too. I am less concerned about the piss poor performance on Sunday than most , I want to see how they come out against Dallas and then the Bungles and Cleveland. That will be more than telling on the type of team and players we have. Playoffs are still ours to lose.
If they shit the bed in the next 3 games then this ownership group needs to look at the coaches , players and potential for locker room problems (Wallace?) in the off season.
This has been a goofy season in the NFL, bizarre outcomes of games.
Lets see how we bounce back from this!!

Stairway to 7
12-11-2012, 06:16 AM
it certainly started off good, but has tailed off considerably.
Our line has been riddled with injury, Pouncey has been playing below the standard, and those have helped diminish our run game.

The one aspect of the "Haley" offense i'm disappointed with is our complete lack of utilizing the outside. We run up the middle, Then we run up the middle again. Then we once again...run up the middle...even if it means running into our own guys where there's no hole.
And the passing. Most all the calls are down the field or slants of some sort in the middle. Rivers and the Chargers absolutely killed us on Sunday by having the receivers run turning routes to the outside and they kept completeing passes near the sideline over and over and over. I'm not understanding why we can't incorporate these type of routes either. Thats how Romo uses Dez Bryant.

I hate to say it, but once again - we are the leagues most predictable offense - often one can call plays from the comfort of your own couch at home. Hell, analysts in the booth do it.
I was hoping for more of a "surprise" attack but we seem to be doing the same thing. Still hoping this will change.


Think about it, we're using Dwyer as a starter, and Redman is backing him up. They could try Rainey outside, but thgis line is not athletic at all, and of course Spinthenfall is a waste of oxygen.

I always thought this year would be a transition year and here we are, with a team that bears all the hallmarks of a work in progress. Great one week, sucking ballz the week after.

WokeUpWithaWoodley
12-11-2012, 07:14 AM
I'm really not sure how you can call this offense a "run heavy" offense. Right now this offense has attempted 483 passes and 336 rushes. That's a 59%/41% pass to run ratio. If you take out Antonio Brown's 2 pass attempts but then also take out the 21 QB rushes and 1 idiotic kicker attempt, on a over the head toss from the holder, the ratio becomes even more pass heavy.
This offense utilizes the short passing game to control the clock.

The reason for more pass attempts is because they try to establish a running game In the first half which doesn't happen so we fall behide and have to pass more in the second half. In today's nfl you have to pass to setup the run. We fall to these terrible teams because we try to run the ball and we get no where punt and give the other team pretty good field position.

SteelBobbleHead
12-11-2012, 08:18 AM
The reason for more pass attempts is because they try to establish a running game In the first half which doesn't happen so we fall behide and have to pass more in the second half. In today's nfl you have to pass to setup the run. We fall to these terrible teams because we try to run the ball and we get no where punt and give the other team pretty good field position.

Just going from recollection I don't think that is the case. Don't have time now but I will research it later. Just off the top of my head I can't remember that many games where we fell that far behind that we were forced to pass to try to make a quick comeback. I do remember atleast 3 games where Ben hit 8 different receivers. I highly doubt they were all in the 2nd half.

maddog78
12-11-2012, 08:39 AM
Liked the way it started, but it was quickly derailed by injuries. Now that guys are getting healthy, they'd better get it together.

GoFor7
12-11-2012, 08:47 AM
For those saying how this offense is meant to keep Ben upright - it has already failed in that regard.

I am hesitant to give Haley 100% blame because I too get a sense he's under orders from Art Rooney about what he can and cannot do. I know pass/run ratio for the Steelers still leans towards the pass, but how many of those are just check downs and bubble screens? Don't put too much stock in that.

I was very disappointed when the Steelers actually were running the ball well that they weren't taking shots down field using play action. I got crucified for saying it before, but to me the lack of down field plays says the Steelers think possession is more important than scoring. The Steelers really need to let go of the past, as they have proven they can lose a game when they own TOP anyways. They have drafted the weapons necessary to be an explosive down field passing team, yet for some reason they don't want to take advantage of it. Where the hell is the sense in that?

I say score more points as quickly as possible, then worry about possession and killing the clock in the fourth quarter. Let Ben do more early on in a game, then he doesn't have to try and bail out the team when they are down by multiple possessions.

Stairway to 7
12-11-2012, 08:54 AM
For those saying how this offense is meant to keep Ben upright - it has already failed in that regard.

I am hesitant to give Haley 100% blame because I too get a sense he's under orders from Art Rooney about what he can and cannot do. I know pass/run ratio for the Steelers still leans towards the pass, but how many of those are just check downs and bubble screens? Don't put too much stock in that.

I was very disappointed when the Steelers actually were running the ball well that they weren't taking shots down field using play action. I got crucified for saying it before, but to me the lack of down field plays says the Steelers think possession is more important than scoring. The Steelers really need to let go of the past, as they have proven they can lose a game when they own TOP anyways. They have drafted the weapons necessary to be an explosive down field passing team, yet for some reason they don't want to take advantage of it. Where the hell is the sense in that?

I say score more points as quickly as possible, then worry about possession and killing the clock in the fourth quarter. Let Ben do more early on in a game, then he doesn't have to try and bail out the team when they are down by multiple possessions.

Good post, football has changed, you need to score TD's and kill teams off. The Steelers don't do either. every game it seems is down to the wire common sense tells you that you're not going to go 12-4 playing that way, even the crap teams in the NFL are too good to let them hang round.

steelfury02
12-11-2012, 09:42 AM
I am extremely concerned about the lack of time Ben will have now - the Chargers were absolutely all over his ass all day long - the effing Chargers. Can you imagine this line going up against Miller and Dumervil? Jesus.

And, as far as the types of passes, it doesn't really fuckin matter when the WRs aren't dependable. AB seemed really humble after that loss - good. It is time for him to emerge as a leader. RIGHT NOW. There is no time left.

TRH
12-11-2012, 09:44 AM
I am extremely concerned about the lack of time Ben will have now - the Chargers were absolutely all over his ass all day long - the effing Chargers. Can you imagine this line going up against Miller and Dumervil? Jesus.

And, as far as the types of passes, it doesn't really fuckin matter when the WRs aren't dependable. AB seemed really humble after that loss - good. It is time for him to emerge as a leader. RIGHT NOW. There is no time left.

I agree. Brown looked every bit a buffoon as Walllace has looked many times this year.
If anyone can learn from such a wake-up call, it's Brown. He probably needed it.

steelfury02
12-11-2012, 09:48 AM
We absolutely need someone to start taking the pressure off Ben, and becoming his go to guy. Miller has what it takes to lead by example. We need a vocal leader from the WRs who WANT the ball, and WANT to carry this team. Remember how verbal Holmes was during the XLIII run? Yea - we need someone to step up starting right now. AB has what it takes.

madtowndrunkard
12-11-2012, 09:48 AM
We struggle to pick up blitzes... our WR's are not getting it done..and our O-line is struggling to create holes.

Why is this? I'm not positive but I suspect it's because of the injuries ....at least for the O-line and QB play. As for the WR's... probably goes back to the O-line not giving them time to get open.

What is bothersome is how we've handled the injuries. The coaching staff really hasn't adjusted much... now teams have figured out how to defend us...which has just made the problems worse.

fansince'76
12-11-2012, 10:24 AM
What is bothersome is how we've handled the injuries. The coaching staff really hasn't adjusted much... now teams have figured out how to defend us...which has just made the problems worse.

I thought moving Pouncey to guard and Legursky to center against the Ravens after Colon went down (again) was a damn good adjustment.

You can only do so much when you lose key starterS (plural) seemingly every single week. The "next man up" stuff only goes so far.

plenewken
12-11-2012, 10:41 AM
Look at the Teams stats on ESPN.com and you have the answer. Haley hasn't brought much ........... yet. I have strong reservations on the guy. We'll see where we stand at the end of the season but I'm not impressed by the Offense so far. I know we had injuries in the OL but what team doesn't?

Rotorhead
12-11-2012, 11:27 AM
Gee, maybe the passing game failures are due to injuries to WR,s too. We had to sign Plax off the street, bring up one from the practice squad, with a second and third string qb and a third string RT, our all pro center playing guard. Maybe this has something with our off production. And BTW, we do throw long to Wallace, results, dropped pass, dropped pass, pathetic attempt to catch leading to an int, etc. why keep throwing to him when he puts at best little effort to catch it, then complains abouts how many targets hes getting.

Fire Arians
12-11-2012, 11:28 AM
we need a real NFL caliber running back. whatever we have back there, is below average and other teams know it. not having a threat out of the backfield makes you 1-dimensional, and that doesnt work in the NFL

steelfury02
12-11-2012, 11:35 AM
Gee, maybe the passing game failures are due to injuries to WR,s too. We had to sign Plax off the street, bring up one from the practice squad, with a second and third string qb and a third string RT, our all pro center playing guard. Maybe this has something with our off production. And BTW, we do throw long to Wallace, results, dropped pass, dropped pass, pathetic attempt to catch leading to an int, etc. why keep throwing to him when he puts at best little effort to catch it, then complains abouts how many targets hes getting.

Yea, I hear you on the injuries at WR - but now there isn't any excuses, except for, yet again INJURIES on the o-line. They have very little time to let a play develop - however, teams like NE live for getting the ball out to the WRs extremely fast. Brady has protection though. Big difference. When you are having to step up into the middle or always running out of the pocket, that affects the quick strike as well.

Fire Arians
12-11-2012, 11:37 AM
Yea, I hear you on the injuries at WR - but now there isn't any excuses, except for, yet again INJURIES on the o-line. They have very little time to let a play develop - however, teams like NE live for getting the ball out to the WRs extremely fast. Brady has protection though. Big difference. When you are having to step up into the middle or always running out of the pocket, that affects the quick strike as well.

hell ben didn't even have enough protection to get a WR screen off, the amount of protection that ben got last saturday was just horrible. o-line shit the bed. when that happens, you won't get anything done on offense, i don't care if you got joe montana back there

plenewken
12-11-2012, 11:38 AM
Dead last in the AFC in number of 1st downs, far behind the others, is not only due to injuries.

SteelersCanada
12-11-2012, 11:41 AM
we need a real NFL caliber running back. whatever we have back there, is below average and other teams know it. not having a threat out of the backfield makes you 1-dimensional, and that doesnt work in the NFL

We might not agree on a lot of things - specifically how optimistic we should be (you pessimist! :chuckle:) - but this is absolutely dead on.

steelfury02
12-11-2012, 11:44 AM
hell ben didn't even have enough protection to get a WR screen off, the amount of protection that ben got last saturday was just horrible. o-line shit the bed. when that happens, you won't get anything done on offense, i don't care if you got joe montana back there

yea, and I love Ben - but just having him back wasn't the answer. Apparently, the rest of the Steelers players thought so - or at least played like that was the only thing needed to win.

What is Wallace or Ben or AB gonna say if they put up abysmal performances and we're out of the playoffs? The losing wouldn't sting as much if I saw them at least fight, produce, and make a game of it. Go down swinging. DON'T JUST LAY DOWN AND DIE ON YOUR OWN.

Fire Arians
12-11-2012, 11:44 AM
We might not agree on a lot of things - specifically how optimistic we should be (you pessimist! :chuckle:) - but this is absolutely dead on.

Hey I'm not a pessimist, I like to think realist. If the team gives me a reason to be optimistic, I always lean that way :drink:

But I do like your optimism. While people rarely agree on everything, that's what make discussions interesting.

JewniorGong
12-11-2012, 11:47 AM
Injuries on the O line are bad.. RB's are terrible.. WR's play smaller than they are..

And ya know.. I know Ben has been our savior, but one reason why we don't score fuck tons of points is because he's not as accurate as those guys like Brady and Rodgers. He doesn't throw guys open. He waits till they get open and hits them, but he's not the best deep ball thrower

Fire Arians
12-11-2012, 11:48 AM
Dead last in the AFC in number of 1st downs, far behind the others, is not only due to injuries.

being almost dead last in rushing offense will do that. I don't care what people say about this being a 'quarterback NFL' now, that's all baloney, the running game is still critical to making an offense work.

All the great QB's who won multiple championships had a strong running attack to go with it.

Bradshaw had Franco, Montana had Craig, Warner had Faulk, Elway couldn't win one until they had Davis, Brady hasn't done well since NE's rushing attack declined (they had a good one with dillon)

steelfury02
12-11-2012, 11:55 AM
being almost dead last in rushing offense will do that. I don't care what people say about this being a 'quarterback NFL' now, that's all baloney, the running game is still critical to making an offense work.

All the great QB's who won multiple championships had a strong running attack to go with it.

Bradshaw had Franco, Montana had Craig, Warner had Faulk, Elway couldn't win one until they had Davis, Brady hasn't done well since NE's rushing attack declined (they had a good one with dillon)

This. Ben had Parker and Bettis's almost-guaranteed chain-moving runs. Every time it was short, they lined Bettis up and they got it. Parker's record SB TD run helped a helluva lot too, especially since Ben didn't play fantastic. I really think SB XLIII victory was unique because the line was shaky and the running game wasn't that good - I think that team was the exception to the rule. If ever there was a clutch season, it was Ben that year and the 4th quarter improv magic. Oh yea, the defense was legendary too.

Stairway to 7
12-11-2012, 12:17 PM
Injuries on the O line are bad.. RB's are terrible.. WR's play smaller than they are..

And ya know.. I know Ben has been our savior, but one reason why we don't score fuck tons of points is because he's not as accurate as those guys like Brady and Rodgers. He doesn't throw guys open. He waits till they get open and hits them, but he's not the best deep ball thrower

Yes, this is hwy we need a run game, his deep balls aren't good either, plus Wallace makes no effort to get to them/drops them.

FanSince72
12-11-2012, 12:57 PM
I'm not seeing how this offense is better than the one last year. They are 20th or something around that in scoring and have only hit the 30 point mark once. It hasn't kept Ben healthy. And frankly, I see some similar bone-headed plays that Arians got crucified for.

Ben is a top five QB (yes, I know some of you hate hearing that), but this offense is designed to make him more of a game manager. Would anyone think holding back Manning, Brady, Rodgers, or Brees makes sense? Yet in Pittsburgh, the star QB has to be "put in his place" because "he only cares about his stats," or they want to see an out-dated style of football.

You guys want the offense to score points like the Patriots and Packers? Guess what, dink-and-dunk isn't going to do that. The Steelers are still of the mentality that time of possession is the be all end all, and they need to get out of it. They have the weapons to be a downfield passing team, yet they don't want to do that. Why? Haley sure wasn't scared about going downfield in Arizona. Perhaps Art has too much say in the offense. Regardless, if the Steelers don't start playing to their strengths then they won't be better than 20th in scoring. The offense is also hurting by the lack of turnovers generated by the defense and the complete and utter embarrassment that is the Steelers special teams. The Steelers need more points faster, not more time of possession.

In the latter part of the 70's dynasty, the Steelers went from a run heavy, defensive team to a pass heavy, high-scoring offensive team. Did yinzer nation get all up in arms when that dynasty won two more super bowls playing that way? Did Art Rooney Sr. go on media tours proclaiming a return to a ground-heavy attack? Steeler fans, learn from your history. Don't cover it up over some misguided notion that you don't want Ben on a pedestal.

As most folks here know, I was very happy with BA and I thought that the main problem HE had was the constant injuries to the O-line.

Over in Indy, he's doing just fine (9-4) as both the OC and as Head Coach and he's doing it with a rookie QB, no less!

But according to most here, "BA sucks" and if anyone really believes that then I have a bridge they might be interested in purchasing.
As far as Haley goes, he's done some good things like getting Ben to throw more quickly, but overall, I'm underwhelmed. :noidea:

steelfury02
12-11-2012, 01:53 PM
As most folks here know, I was very happy with BA and I thought that the main problem HE had was the constant injuries to the O-line.

Over in Indy, he's doing just fine (9-4) as both the OC and as Head Coach and he's doing it with a rookie QB, no less!

But according to most here, "BA sucks" and if anyone really believes that then I have a bridge they might be interested in purchasing.
As far as Haley goes, he's done some good things like getting Ben to throw more quickly, but overall, I'm underwhelmed. :noidea:

pretty small body of work to go by compared to your familiarity with Arians. IMO - Arians is benefiting from a great QB. A lot of those come from behind plays are, wait for it - great improv by Luck and Wayne.

GoFor7
12-11-2012, 02:22 PM
Yes, this is hwy we need a run game, his deep balls aren't good either, plus Wallace makes no effort to get to them/drops them.

His deep balls aren't good? What have you been watching the last several years?

ZoneBlitzer
12-11-2012, 02:38 PM
His deep balls aren't good? What have you been watching the last several years?

Ben often throws too late or puts too much air under his long ball. I've seen it countless times.

Stairway to 7
12-11-2012, 02:48 PM
Ben often throws too late or puts too much air under his long ball. I've seen it countless times.

Every time it goes deep, you know it';s going to be caught. Thoroughly depressing, we have two burners one who is extremely fast and we never land a bomb downfield.

When it's on target (rare) Wallace drops it.

GoFor7
12-11-2012, 02:48 PM
Ben often throws too late or puts too much air under his long ball. I've seen it countless times.

Okay then....


Anyways, this "spread the ball" offense has totally backfired on the Steelers. Instead of getting the ball into the hands of the best playmakers, they pretend as if the marginal players must play key roles. As a result, the playmakers themselves look marginal because they are under-used. Instead of trying to retard Ben, they should build the offense around him. I would say fire Haley, but since Art Rooney's been getting too involved in football operations I'm not sure that would make a difference. Considering that Haley built an offense around Warner in Arizona, that really leads me to believe he is not in full control of things.

teegre
12-11-2012, 03:04 PM
Ben often throws too late or puts too much air under his long ball. I've seen it countless times.

I agree.

I like 95% of what BB does, but his deep ball just never seems to hit the WRs in stride.

And, as someone else pointed out, it wouldn't matter, because Walalce will drop it anyway.

JeromeBetties63
12-11-2012, 03:06 PM
I'm not seeing how this offense is better than the one last year. They are 20th or something around that in scoring and have only hit the 30 point mark once. It hasn't kept Ben healthy. And frankly, I see some similar bone-headed plays that Arians got crucified for.

Ben is a top five QB (yes, I know some of you hate hearing that), but this offense is designed to make him more of a game manager. Would anyone think holding back Manning, Brady, Rodgers, or Brees makes sense? Yet in Pittsburgh, the star QB has to be "put in his place" because "he only cares about his stats," or they want to see an out-dated style of football.

You guys want the offense to score points like the Patriots and Packers? Guess what, dink-and-dunk isn't going to do that. The Steelers are still of the mentality that time of possession is the be all end all, and they need to get out of it. They have the weapons to be a downfield passing team, yet they don't want to do that. Why? Haley sure wasn't scared about going downfield in Arizona. Perhaps Art has too much say in the offense. Regardless, if the Steelers don't start playing to their strengths then they won't be better than 20th in scoring. The offense is also hurting by the lack of turnovers generated by the defense and the complete and utter embarrassment that is the Steelers special teams. The Steelers need more points faster, not more time of possession.

In the latter part of the 70's dynasty, the Steelers went from a run heavy, defensive team to a pass heavy, high-scoring offensive team. Did yinzer nation get all up in arms when that dynasty won two more super bowls playing that way? Did Art Rooney Sr. go on media tours proclaiming a return to a ground-heavy attack? Steeler fans, learn from your history. Don't cover it up over some misguided notion that you don't want Ben on a pedestal.

The Patriots and Packers are both dink and dunk.

GoFor7
12-11-2012, 03:10 PM
The Patriots and Packers are both dink and dunk.

They actually make down field plays though and don't sweat over time of possession. If the Steelers actually make down field plays then maybe dink-and-dunk can be justified to lul in a defense. But they don't even do that. They just want to play an out-dated style of football and turn their QB into Mike Tomzack.

FanSince72
12-11-2012, 03:20 PM
pretty small body of work to go by compared to your familiarity with Arians. IMO - Arians is benefiting from a great QB. A lot of those come from behind plays are, wait for it - great improv by Luck and Wayne.


http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag37/JPsuff/seriously.jpg

TRH
12-11-2012, 03:32 PM
They actually make down field plays though and don't sweat over time of possession. If the Steelers actually make down field plays then maybe dink-and-dunk can be justified to lul in a defense. But they don't even do that. They just want to play an out-dated style of football and turn their QB into Mike Tomzack.


thats true. Brady made at least 3 very long down-the-field bombs that i can think of immediately from last nights game.

steelfury02
12-11-2012, 03:36 PM
http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag37/JPsuff/seriously.jpg

yea, seriously - Haley and Ben's time together amounts to 9.5 games. Not sure how you can compare that to 5 seasons under Arians.

Yea, I said it - Arians is being carried, once again. When the predictability settles in after defenses figure it out, he'll be shit canned once again. I'm glad you like him and all, but the guy isn't very likable. What happens when the whole "let's rally behind cancer" dies - no pun intended - out?

Who called him Father Flanagan? Hilarious shit.

FanSince72
12-11-2012, 03:55 PM
yea, seriously - Haley and Ben's time together amounts to 9.5 games. Not sure how you can compare that to 5 seasons under Arians.

Yea, I said it - Arians is being carried, once again. When the predictability settles in after defenses figure it out, he'll be shit canned once again. I'm glad you like him and all, but the guy isn't very likable. What happens when the whole "let's rally behind cancer" dies - no pun intended - out?

Who called him Father Flanagan? Hilarious shit.

Well... When Arians took over as OC in 2007, he (and Ben) had 9 wins at the same time of year that Arians has 9 wins now with Indy.

That's pretty consistent.
Or was Ben "carrying" BA in 2007?

Or could it be that Arians just knows how to get the most out of a QB?
Maybe BECAUSE the Father Flanagan thing works better?

Just spitballin'... :noidea:

SteelersCanada
12-11-2012, 04:06 PM
Well... When Arians took over as OC in 2007, he (and Ben) had 9 wins at the same time of year that Arians has 9 wins now with Indy.

That's pretty consistent.
Or was Ben "carrying" BA in 2007?

Or could it be that Arians just knows how to get the most out of a QB?
Maybe BECAUSE the Father Flanagan thing works better?

Just spitballin'... :noidea:

Or, it's the fact that Arians had elite quarterbacks coming into the NFL. Give him an average-to-decent quarterback and let's see how he'll do.

Ben made Bruce look very, very good. How many times did Ben have to improvise plays and bail out Arians after a terrible, terrible playcall which Ben turned it into magic. Having a gameplan of throwing first in a tropical storm is the type of thing Bruce exceeds at.

FrancoLambert
12-11-2012, 04:36 PM
Responding to the title thread.

I'd give it a B-minus, down from a B+.

But as usual, the downgrade is more related to the OL play than the coaching.

I also expected more deep passing plays with the speed at WR we have and a more creative use of Rainey.
I love the way Heath's more involved.

If Haley stays and we improve the OL (again) this offense could really take off.

MACH1
12-11-2012, 04:43 PM
Or, it's the fact that Arians had elite quarterbacks coming into the NFL. Give him an average-to-decent quarterback and let's see how he'll do.

Ben made Bruce look very, very good. How many times did Ben have to improvise plays and bail out Arians after a terrible, terrible playcall which Ben turned it into magic. Having a gameplan of throwing first in a tropical storm is the type of thing Bruce exceeds at.

Ask the clowns how good arians was with average qb's.

FanSince72
12-11-2012, 05:51 PM
Ask the clowns how good arians was with average qb's.

The Browns?

Really?

So you're saying that what a person does early in their career is what they'll do forever?
Don't you think he's learned a bit over the years?

teegre
12-11-2012, 06:29 PM
The Browns?

Really?

So you're saying that what a person does early in their career is what they'll do forever?
Don't you think he's learned a bit over the years?

Colts & Manning GOOD
Browns & avergae quarterback BAD
Steelers & Big Ben GOOD
Colts & Luck GOOD

It's science.

FanSince72
12-11-2012, 06:33 PM
Colts & Manning GOOD
Browns & avergae quarterback BAD
Steelers & Big Ben GOOD
Colts & Luck GOOD

It's science.

Oh, it science.

So where then, is Haley on the Periodic Table?

VaDave
12-11-2012, 06:34 PM
Dead last in the AFC in number of 1st downs, far behind the others, is not only due to injuries.

Of course it isn't the only thing, but it IS the 800lb gorillia in the room that even a novice fan should be able to come to grips with, or something like that.....

teegre
12-11-2012, 06:36 PM
Oh, it science.

So where then, is Haley on the Periodic Table?

Right between Ken Whisenhunt & Kevin Gilbride, and two rows up from Bruce Arians & Ray Sherman.

jiminpa
12-11-2012, 07:09 PM
I've seen some Whisenhunt moments from Haley, but he's had his Arians moments too. I wish he'd make up his mind so I can love him or hate him, this both thing is painful.

btaylor179
12-11-2012, 07:43 PM
get rid of damned wr screen....hate that play

steelfury02
12-11-2012, 08:14 PM
FanSince72 - agree to disagree

For me, Bruce is was equally responsible next to o-line injuries for the demise of the run game. I will never forgive him for not putting Mendy and co. in better positions to succeed. He blatantly and to his own admission would set them up to fail by putting them in a catch 22. He knew damn well that first, he was going to throw the ball on 3rd and short rather than run it, limiting opportunities to succeed, gain confidence, and help move the chains - he was going to limit the number of reps they got in practice - again, putting them behind the 8-ball. Even when the O-line was injured, magically, it was the RBs fault for not producing and then, he wasn't going to get more opportunities until they proved they could do better otherwise (even though Bruce was putting them in positions to fail).

Not once did he ever take responsibility for the offensive failures. It was always someone not running a route correctly, missing a block, or the players just not making the plays. God forbid he play to any strengths or switch things up when the situation called for it - even when the other team adjusted, and, after a period of time - all the good defenses figured them out, hence the offense going backwards in spite of supposedly gaining talent (arrival of Wallace, Brown, Sanders). It is no surprise he got shit canned. In the face of terrible red zone efficiency, he did absolutely nothing to change things up - it was simply "up to the players to execute." Also - why was Heath Miller so under utilized. One of the top 5 TEs in the league, and he is regulated to blocking duty so David Johnson can drop another pass in the flat.

Sorry. You can have 9 wins in a first season with a QB. Ben carried Bruce to a SB title. The only games I saw that it seems he put some thought into were the 07 Blowout of the Ravens at home where Ben had one of the best games of his career, the 10 AFC champ game where they emphasized the run, and found unique ways to run it (off balance, counters, and even a naked bootleg!) and absolutely dominated the line of scrimmage, and last season's Patriots game - where Ben threw quick strikes all game long. And then magically, that game plan was never found again.

zcoop
12-11-2012, 08:43 PM
Dink and Dunk, sucks Big Donkey #*(&s. The offense is too predictable. Some can continue to blame a lack of vertical passing on Wallace dropping the ball. That shit is so childish. I would challange any of them to go back and look at the games and tell me how many dropped passes has Mike had this year?

Bottom line, Haley's offense ain't too damn good. They can make all the excusses they want to and throw players under the bus but the eyes don't lie. Having to defend 20yds vs the entire field is not good. Opposing defenses (even the lesser ones) feasts on dink and dunk.

steelfury02
12-11-2012, 08:55 PM
Dink and Dunk, sucks Big Donkey #*(&s. The offense is too predictable. Some can continue to blame a lack of vertical passing on Wallace dropping the ball. That shit is so childish. I would challange any of them to go back and look at the games and tell me how many dropped passes has Mike had this year?

Bottom line, Haley's offense ain't too damn good. They can make all the excusses they want to and throw players under the bus but the eyes don't lie. Having to defend 20yds vs the entire field is not good. Opposing defenses (even the lesser ones) feasts on dink and dunk.

well, what else can you do when Ben is getting killed, and now, the receivers can't seem to catch anything? Right now - a defense's best bet is to go all out all game long. No need to respect the running game or fear the deep ball at all.

JeromeBetties63
12-11-2012, 09:17 PM
thats true. Brady made at least 3 very long down-the-field bombs that i can think of immediately from last nights game.

Of course, so does Ben...but the freaking Patriots dinked and dunked their way passed us into two Super Bowls....Brady throws a ton of 5 yd passes.

jiminpa
12-11-2012, 09:19 PM
Deep ball, deep ball, deep ball, interception, drive ended. Ta da! Or how about sack, sack, hold, sack, 4th and 35? Sound like a good gameplan? Arians liked it. He isn't here anymore, and for good reason. Yeah, you need to go deep, but the fact is that we have gone deep, and had catchable balls hit Wallace right in the hands, and how many of those did he drop? I think it was all but one. How many, I don't know, but it was way too many. Limus Sweed could have run down field and dropped the ball, and he's not here anymore either, but at least he could block. In reality Wallace has had one job here, run really fast and catch the friggen deep ball. In his good years he was moderately able to do that. This year--nope. Okay, it still serves its purpose--the defense still has to cover him, so it opens up the middle. Unless they realize that he's only caught one of them and decide to gamble, it's not much of a risk really.

JeromeBetties63
12-11-2012, 09:20 PM
Everyone seems to be forgetting that before Ben went down the Steelers were 6-3 and coming together. They led the league in 3rd down conversions. Ben had a 100 QB rating in spite of Wallace dropping every other ball thrown his way. Heath Miller was having a career year. Ya, there was still stuff to work on...but it was moving in a positive direction. Last week was just a ridiculous fluke game....it won't stay like that.

madtowndrunkard
12-11-2012, 09:39 PM
I thought moving Pouncey to guard and Legursky to center against the Ravens after Colon went down (again) was a damn good adjustment.

You can only do so much when you lose key starterS (plural) seemingly every single week. The "next man up" stuff only goes so far.

We are not the only team with lots of injuries.. The packers had more injuries then we have now by a long shot - two years ago... what did they do to us in the SB?

FanSince72
12-11-2012, 09:41 PM
FanSince72 - agree to disagree

For me, Bruce is was equally responsible next to o-line injuries for the demise of the run game. I will never forgive him for not putting Mendy and co. in better positions to succeed. He blatantly and to his own admission would set them up to fail by putting them in a catch 22. He knew damn well that first, he was going to throw the ball on 3rd and short rather than run it, limiting opportunities to succeed, gain confidence, and help move the chains - he was going to limit the number of reps they got in practice - again, putting them behind the 8-ball. Even when the O-line was injured, magically, it was the RBs fault for not producing and then, he wasn't going to get more opportunities until they proved they could do better otherwise (even though Bruce was putting them in positions to fail).

Not once did he ever take responsibility for the offensive failures. It was always someone not running a route correctly, missing a block, or the players just not making the plays. God forbid he play to any strengths or switch things up when the situation called for it - even when the other team adjusted, and, after a period of time - all the good defenses figured them out, hence the offense going backwards in spite of supposedly gaining talent (arrival of Wallace, Brown, Sanders). It is no surprise he got shit canned. In the face of terrible red zone efficiency, he did absolutely nothing to change things up - it was simply "up to the players to execute." Also - why was Heath Miller so under utilized. One of the top 5 TEs in the league, and he is regulated to blocking duty so David Johnson can drop another pass in the flat.

Sorry. You can have 9 wins in a first season with a QB. Ben carried Bruce to a SB title. The only games I saw that it seems he put some thought into were the 07 Blowout of the Ravens at home where Ben had one of the best games of his career, the 10 AFC champ game where they emphasized the run, and found unique ways to run it (off balance, counters, and even a naked bootleg!) and absolutely dominated the line of scrimmage, and last season's Patriots game - where Ben threw quick strikes all game long. And then magically, that game plan was never found again.

You make some valid points and for the record, I never said the man was perfect.

What I DID see in BA was a guy who had this freakishly mobile, tackle-shedding QB who loved to improvise and I think he tried to somehow work with that rather than try to restrict Ben to something specific. I'll be the first to admit that he had limited success in doing that but I always gave him credit for trying to allow Ben to be Ben.

He got carried away with it sometimes - often to the detriment of other aspects of a good offense (like under-utilizing running backs) and I also think that as much as he wanted to go in a more "West Coast" direction, he was still more of a traditionalist than he probably cared to admit, so he was always conflicted about committing to something that wouldn't be "Steeler Football" (whatever that is).

I've always likened it to someone who comes up with some great gadget that does some really neat things, but can't quite figure out just what it's really good for.

But for all his faults, he was willing to try different things and though his overall success can be debated, he still managed to help put together five winning seasons and two trips to the Super Bowl.
I know that many people want to say that the defense had a lot to do with that (and it did), but no one ever says that that was because of the players rather than LeBeau. I'm sure that there were many instances where a team gained yards or scored on us because someone missed a read or blew a coverage, yet no one blamed LeBeau for that. Instead, most people say that LeBeau's defense was very good even when it clearly wasn't because they know that in an overall sense it was good. So in fairness, you'd have to say the same thing about BA because we DID win all those games and we DID go to two SB's and we DID win one of them and BA WAS the OC just as LeBeau was the DC.

The defense may have done some good things but it was the offense that put up the lion's share of the points all those years and if LeBeau gets the props for keeping the other team out of the end zone, then it's only fair that BA gets some props for getting us INTO it.

Like I've said before, BA will probably never be a Hall of Fame coach, but he is certainly a good coach and I don't care how much raw talent the players may have, the coach is still the one that manages that talent and if that talent is successful, then the coach has to be included in that success.