PDA

View Full Version : Madden: Ben's at fault, but he's not the only one


GoFor7
12-24-2012, 01:37 AM
http://www.timesonline.com/columnists/sports/mark_madden/madden-ben-s-at-fault-but-he-s-not-only/article_29e5be5d-0670-5299-b4ce-dcc775ba67c3.html

Madden: Ben's at fault, but he's not only one
Posted: Sunday, December 23, 2012 11:47 pm | Updated: 11:54 pm, Sun Dec 23, 2012.

By Mark Madden Special to The Times | 0 comments

Ben Roethlisberger blew it. Are you happy? Itís what you wanted, right? Enjoy the moment. Glory in it. Wallow in it. Bring up the bad past. Forget the good past. Call the talk shows. (Donít forget mine.)

Ben lost the game. He threw a pick-six. He tossed the interception that set up the Bengalsí playoff-making field goal at the gameís death. Ben played badly.

This town hates star quarterbacks. You alienated Terry Bradshaw for years. You never pass up a chance to diminish Roethlisberger. Some of the rumors freely spread about past Pittsburgh quarterbacks canít even be recounted here.

You want defense. You want to run the ball. The Steelersí president wants the same things, dictating such to the coaching staff.

You got half-a-loaf at Heinz Field yesterday. The ďStats CurtainĒ defense went well beyond numbers, posting three takeaways, six sacks and six more tackles for loss. The Bengals averaged less than a yard per carry on the ground.

The Steelersí running game? Meh. Just 3.1 yards per carry. The saving grace was Rashard Mendenhall. You donít like him, either.

So, Ben blew it. You have that hatred to keep you warm all winter.

Me? Iím still a Ben guy. Iím making fun of you, not him. Figure that out yet?

Sure, Roethlisberger lost the game. Heís not played great since returning from injury two weeks ago. But the glory of his career rivals that of Bradshaw. I remember Super Bowl XLIII. I remember that pass to Santonio Holmes.

If you donít, thatís because youíve always wanted an excuse not to.

Be honest: The Steelers arenít playoff-caliber. Theyíre poorly assembled, poorly coached and poorly managed. Theyíre a team that has trouble being led. This season has been an unmitigated disaster.

The Steelers didnít miss the playoffs yesterday. The Steelers missed the playoffs when they lost to Oakland, Tennessee, Cleveland and San Diego. Ben didnít lose all those games.

The Steelers missed the playoffs because they entered the season with a professional cripple as the No. 2 QB and a 37-year-old man at No. 3. Everyone remembers Charlie Batch beating Baltimore. What about the two games they lost (including one at Cleveland) while Roethlisberger was hurt?

The Steelers missed the playoffs because the coaches mangled the running back position. Mendenhall is quality. When healthy, he never should have been benched, let alone scratched. He should have started and got the bulk of the work. Mendenhall proved it yesterday with 50 yards on 11 carries.

The Steelers missed the playoffs because the ďYoung Money CrewĒ underachieved. Drops. Imprecise routes. Ego. The Steelersí receivers are punks.

The Steelers missed the playoffs because until yesterday, the defense rarely made plays. Yesterday was great. Yesterday wasnít nearly enough.

The Steelers missed the playoffs because of bad coaching. Game plans, in-game decisions and adjustments: It was all bad. Examples are too numerous to cite.

And yeah, Ben played rotten yesterday.

The Steelers have some big names that may be past their sell-by date. Their talent level is overrated, especially by management.

The chaotic coaching must be sorted out. Yes, that includes offensive coordinator Todd Haley being a bad fit for Roethlisberger. How is Bruce Arians doing at Indianapolis? He didnít retire after all, did he?

The Steelers donít need leaders. The Steelers need their younger players to accept leadership. To listen.

The Steelers need team president Art Rooney II to leave football to the football people. He hasnít. Thatís where a lot of these problems started.

More than anything, the Steelers need to admit their mistakes.

Thatís not going to happen.

So get ready for empty platitudes, ďthe standard is the standard,Ē and the perpetuation of outdated philosophies and skewed priorities. Itís a quick-strike league, but the Steelers will keep attempting gradual suffocation. Being right will continue to be more important than doing the right thing.

Get ready for 8-8 or 7-9 again next year. Maybe worse.

ZoneBlitzer
12-24-2012, 02:09 AM
Why does Pittsburgh hate star QBs?

therocksteeler
12-24-2012, 04:37 AM
"The Steelers don’t need leaders. The Steelers need their younger players to accept leadership. To listen." I agree with you on this statement. However, through them listening and taking direction their own leadership should be developing.

steelfury02
12-24-2012, 05:59 AM
"The WRs are punks" Best part of that whole article IMO.

Where was our "#1" WR yesterday? Oh yea, disappeared in big games yet again. Wallace can just leave - his "big play potential" isn't worth the way his attitude crept into the rest of the WR corps. For every person defending him, there are 2 Steelers fans I know that would rather see Cotchery have more chances over him.

You can keep your speed and potential. I want someone who is going to catch the ball and get back in the huddle. Possession is something that is sorely underrated by Steelers fans. For all the defenders out there - our WR corp hasn't made the difference in big games since AB's helmet catch v. Ravens in 10' playoffs. Who can we rely on right now? Heath is the best receiver on the team, and he isn't even built like a TE/WR hybrid nor is his role similar. That says an awful lot.

I disagree about Mendenhall - he can still go.
Ben is responsible for the last 2 weeks, plain and simple. I agree - the defense didn't show up until @ Cincy game really. Down, then up, then down - story of the season.
It's getting to be too long a time since a playoff victory ladies and gents . . , something getting to be habitual with this team and it isn't good.

Fire Haley
12-24-2012, 07:20 AM
It's a good thing Cleveland didn't get RGIII or we'd be in the AFC North cellar for the next 10 years

Blonde Bomber
12-24-2012, 07:57 AM
I definitely agree that Cotchery is underused. He just seems to catch the ball when it is thrown to him, might be his flaw in this offense.

maddog78
12-24-2012, 08:34 AM
Why does Pittsburgh hate star QBs?

Because Yinzers prefer "smash mawth footbawl".

TRH
12-24-2012, 08:45 AM
Why does Pittsburgh hate star QBs?

I don't know, but i'm getting tired of it. There's blame all over the damned place to go around.

When Bradshaw played here, he was scorned and vilified his entire career here (yes, even through the SB wins...).
It wasn't until well after this career was over, that he was really accepted as both a great player and a legend here.

Now, Ben, while not as hated as Bradshaw was, is put under the microscope for everything and every word he utters is twisted, turned, super-over-analzyed, and regurgitated into something that he either didn't say or didn't mean.

Then go right down the line. O'Donnell, Stewart, Brister, etc, etc, etc. All hated.
Pittsbugh should be happy they have such a great QB.
If you watch a media darling like a P. Manning, Brady or another, their offensive line lets those guys sit back there ALL day long to throw and they still throw more int's than Ben does.
Yes, he threw an INT to put the Bengals in great field position, but there's a hundred other things more wrong with this team than a QB mistake.

plenewken
12-24-2012, 08:58 AM
Yes, he threw an INT to put the Bengals in great field position, but there's a hundred other things more wrong with this team than a QB mistake.

It's not only the INT, it's numerous under throws or over throws. I'm not saying the blame lies only on Ben's shoulders, but when Wallace or Brown have to stop running (or worse, go back) to catch a pass, their speed means sh*t.
Ben has never been an accurate passer, so let's design plays that leverage his strengths not his weaknesses.

Twentyvalve
12-24-2012, 09:14 AM
I agree with most of that. I think he wrote it to emphasize the anger towards BR by fans, when in fact, the Steelers have problems in both depth and breadth from the bottom up that need fixed. I like the concept and timbre of the article. What good is a Teutonic and history tradition stepped in tradition if the most visible aspect of the organization, the team, has been going out week after week with the same problems for years?

These problems include injuries, losing in the fourth quarter, coaching controversies, and a total lack of output with the amount of talent on the team. I wish Tomlin would just for once say he is pissed. I don't need him to act pissed, because if he actually says it I will believe him. As much as he accepts responsibility, which for us fans might ring hollow, I think he means it. But at the same time, it is he same response and gesturing. Just tell us you are pissed and do something about it.

Losing is one thing, losing sucks. But to lose the same way, in the same manner, 5 times a year is unacceptable. Especially when pointing up the anemic amount of points the Steelers have over the last two years.
Those are the most insightful words I have heard from Madden. Ever.

WVABE
12-24-2012, 09:15 AM
Imagine if Ben had Stallworth & Swan, you would here his name on a constant basis with Brady&Manning.
Cotchery is the best WR we have and he's being held back, its been a shame.

Twentyvalve
12-24-2012, 09:15 AM
Ben has always been an accurate passer. Usually top 5, and many times top 3.

It's not only the INT, it's numerous under throws or over throws. I'm not saying the blame lies only on Ben's shoulders, but when Wallace or Brown have to stop running (or worse, go back) to catch a pass, their speed means sh*t.
Ben has never been an accurate passer, so let's design plays that leverage his strengths not his weaknesses.

kwpit79
12-24-2012, 09:37 AM
Ben has never been an accurate passer, so let's design plays that leverage his strengths not his weaknesses.

Sorry, but you're wrong. He wasn't at his best the past two weeks, but saying he's not accurate in general is beyond incorrect. Did you know Ben has the same career completion percentage as Joe Montana? And you know what? They have the same net yards per attempt too (adjusted yards per attempt Ben dominates all of the all-time greats).

What that means is that even though he doesn't dink-and-dunk like most QBs (Brady, Manning) his completion percentage is right up there with them - that's pretty amazing. And it also means he's clearly accurate.

I love the Steelers but I'm tired of the fans. Every loss is the end of the world. We're soft and spoiled as a fanbase in general. Every team has down years/rebuilding years.

plenewken
12-24-2012, 09:46 AM
You guys believe what you want about Ben. I believe he's not an accurate passer, neither in the pocket nor outside the pocket. His wobbly ball isn't the easiest to catch, even when it has the distance.
He's a scrambler./gunslinger, not the high completion % kinda guy. He can make something happen out of nothing but can also make nothing happen out of something.

It's my opinion and I'm not asking you to agree with it.

Twentyvalve
12-24-2012, 10:08 AM
You can have your opinion, sure. But look it at his stats. He is an accurate passer, Just look at his third down stats from this year. He is up there with the best of them. In fact, he was leading the league in third downs.

Check this stat page: http://www.nfl.com/stats/headtohead?player1=ROE750381&player2=FLA009602&player3=BRE229498&player4=BRA371156&position=quarterback&playerOne=Ben+Roethlisberger&playerTwo=Joe+Flacco&playerThree=Drew+Brees&playerFour=Tom+Brady

It compares QB stats between Ben, Brees, Flacco, and Brady. Guess what, he is tied with Brady for for 1st in completion percentage. I don't know how you could argue with that?

You guys believe what you want about Ben. I believe he's not an accurate passer, neither in the pocket nor outside the pocket. His wobbly ball isn't the easiest to catch, even when it has the distance.
He's a scrambler./gunslinger, not the high completion % kinda guy. He can make something happen out of nothing but can also make nothing happen out of something.

It's my opinion and I'm not asking you to agree with it.

Steel95
12-24-2012, 10:51 AM
:mad:Imagine if Ben had Stallworth & Swan, you would here his name on a constant basis with Brady&Manning.
Cotchery is the best WR we have and he's being held back, its been a shame.

Even if he did have Swann and Stallworth, he would still underthrow or overthrow him. It's time people start smelling the smoke; Big Ben is the Franchise QB, he has done a lot of great things for the Organization and the City of Pittsburgh. But he isn't even in the same league as Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, or Aaron Rodgers. Like it or not! He breaks down the play too often when the play doesn't even need to be broke down; people that is a major problem for this team.

However, in his defense, this guy has a pathetic O/L. Ramon Foster and Marcus Gilbert are punks! Those guys are weak; Willie Colon is too injury prone. It's time to go out and get some quality O/L help to support the QB and the running game. It's time #7 starts hitting the open receiver and just taking what the Defense gives them.

Mike Tomlin's Demeanor on the sideline? Fix It Coach!!!!! :mad:
Stop smiling and joking with your players after they make mistakes, hold their A$$ to the fire, get in their faces when they do that. Ryan Clark, Brett Kiesel and James Harrison are fed up with his demeanor. They see the lack of preparation from players on that team.

plenewken
12-24-2012, 10:51 AM
You can have your opinion, sure. But look it at his stats. He is an accurate passer, Just look at his third down stats from this year. He is up there with the best of them. In fact, he was leading the league in third downs.


OK, I stand corrected. I give you meaningless accuracy then, and you give me meaningful accuracy, I mean, when and where accuracy matters.
A 5yd pass completed 60 yards from the opponent's end zone means sh*t to me. An INT in the first 2mn of a game means sh*t to me compared to an INT when the game is on the line.

What I look at is nb of passing TDs and Ben has 23 for the season vs. 39 for Brees, 35 for Rodgers, 34 for Manning and 31 for Brady. I don't have time to look at previous seasons but I'm 100% certain he's behind the same guys.

Is Ben a scoring machine? Nope.

Danny136200
12-24-2012, 11:19 AM
You guys believe what you want about Ben. I believe he's not an accurate passer, neither in the pocket nor outside the pocket. His wobbly ball isn't the easiest to catch, even when it has the distance.
He's a scrambler./gunslinger, not the high completion % kinda guy. He can make something happen out of nothing but can also make nothing happen out of something.

It's my opinion and I'm not asking you to agree with it.
You most welcome to your opinion, but do not complain when people disagree with you.

Ben has not played well since he came back, but before that, he was having an MVP type season. The Steelers were amazing on third down cause of him, he was very accurate with the ball.

I think the injury is hurting him more than what he is leading on, which might be a first for Big Ben. He usually exaggerates his injuries.

I also have a theory (a bit of a joke though) that since his child was born, he does not get much sleep. Its a bit of hyperbole.

This team has talent, I think that our Oline will be set for the next few years; beachum has played pretty well for a 7th round rookie, and even though Decastros second game back was a disaster of sorts, I think he will be fine.

Ricco Suavez
12-24-2012, 11:26 AM
All you got to do is look back at his posts from years back and you will find that he is not a fan of Ben, although who we replace him with I would like to know.

kwpit79
12-24-2012, 11:33 AM
All you got to do is look back at his posts from years back and you will find that he is not a fan of Ben, although who we replace him with I would like to know.

That's the issue. One has to realize that even if he's not a top 3 QB he's a top 6 QB for sure. There are at least 20 teams who would kill to have him as their QB.

Let's say we want to improve the QB position. What are the odds of us getting a top 5 QB in the draft the next few years, even spending a first round pick on one? HIGHLY UNLIKELY. And then we'd be waisting draft resources trying to slightly improve one position when we hvae glaring needs on many other positions.

GoFor7
12-24-2012, 11:35 AM
All you got to do is look back at his posts from years back and you will find that he is not a fan of Ben, although who we replace him with I would like to know.

Yes, there's a few posters like him that only seem to show up after a bad game from Ben. During the four game winning streak, they were nowhere to be found. :chuckle:

For some reason, these guys can't wait for the star QB to fail. When he does fail, they'll list every single bad throw he's ever made, but won't acknowledge he's done far more good than bad. Gotta wonder where this attitude comes from.

Are they worried Ben is becoming bigger than the Steeler logo? Star QBs are bigger than their team's logo, that's just how the NFL is now.

Are they upset that the team from the 90's didn't win anything? No star QB, but great defense and stout running game - just the way yinzer nation wants the game played. It had to sting them when this young star QB shows up and the Steelers finally get over the top and win numbers 5 and 6. So they'll twist things as much as possible to make it seem like Ben has been irrelevant to the Steelers over his career to vindicate the style of football the Steelers played in the 90's.

plenewken
12-24-2012, 11:35 AM
All you got to do is look back at his posts from years back and you will find that he is not a fan of Ben, although who we replace him with I would like to know.

No, I'm not a fan of Ben nor of any Steeler for that matter, I'm a Steelers fan. I'm way past the age to identify myself with a player.

Someone just posted an interesting statistic debunking the idea that Ben has less time that the other top QBs to throw the ball or avoid a sack. You should read it.

Found it for you. Enjoy. http://forums.steelersfever.com/showpost.php?p=1069618&postcount=25

Twentyvalve
12-24-2012, 11:39 AM
Ben has played 3 1/2 games less than those guys. He was having a Pro Bowl year before he was injured. And if you want to dissect the stats, we can do that:

Take a look at the way each respective offense is designed and the concept behind each. Totally different. Ben can make the plays when he needs to. Just like in years past, he has started out good, was injured, and plays at a lesser level. That is not surprising.

Remember, Ben does not design the offense. A "5 yard pass 60 yards from the opponent's endzone" is on Haley, not Ben. It seems based on his completion rate, he is making the throws Haley is asking of him. No? That is not on Ben.

The problem to me is the concept behind the play calling. The short, repeated meaningless passes (and 2 yard runs up the middle) miles away from the endzone might net some clock time, but Haley's offense cannot seem to get into the endzone to score 7. Usually a field goal. The opponent drives down the field for 7. Rinse and repeat. Ben is then asked to make game winning throws on a final drive to win the game. Due to pressure he makes mistakes. Human nature. The problem is we expect Ben to win every time the network flashes his game winning drive stats. We are brainwashed.

I also think Ben is not anywhere near one hundred percent. He is missing throws he should make. If you look at his turnovers, most are in the closing minutes of the game when he is forced to throw under pressure running plays they have no experience running throughout the other 56 minutes of the game. Honestly, I think Arian's offense was better suited for that situation.

If you look at the stats, the don't lie. If you want to delve into them, I think I provided a solid layman's analysis of them. On a broader scale, the team suffers from the lack of key plays at key times. first and second quarter plays mean nothing when they end up losing to teams by 3 points they should be soundly beating. That is not on Ben, he is making the throws. Like I said, that is on Haley. And Ben has had similar numbers under Arians. So, under two OC's Ben has been a league leader. That is impressive on a personal level for him.

This season is not on BR, that is for sure.


OK, I stand corrected. I give you meaningless accuracy then, and you give me meaningful accuracy, I mean, when and where accuracy matters.
A 5yd pass completed 60 yards from the opponent's end zone means sh*t to me. An INT in the first 2mn of a game means sh*t to me compared to an INT when the game is on the line.

What I look at is nb of passing TDs and Ben has 23 for the season vs. 39 for Brees, 35 for Rodgers, 34 for Manning and 31 for Brady. I don't have time to look at previous seasons but I'm 100% certain he's behind the same guys.

Is Ben a scoring machine? Nope.

Ricco Suavez
12-24-2012, 11:43 AM
No, I'm not a fan of Ben nor of any Steeler for that matter, I'm a Steelers fan. I'm way past the age to identify myself with a player.

Someone just posted an interesting statistic debunking the idea that Ben has less time that the other top QBs to throw the ball or avoid a sack. You should read it.

So you cherry pick the stats you want to believe in. Interesting, Never understood the not a fan of players. The current roster IS the Steelers, all you root for is the LOGO then. Hey I understand not liking some current players, but as long as they wear B&G I will be a fan of them on the field. When Porter, Woodson, Hope, Washington , and others have left, I could care less how they do. The same with Ben, when he goes I will not keep up with him, but to down him at every opportunity and lessen his role in the Steelers success is not right. All I hear is Defense won all those SB's, even his 2nd yr when he became the youngest QB of a SB winning team, his play in the three playoff games preceding the SB were as good as any in the history of the Steelers. And while JH made a history making play in the Arizona SB Ben had to lead a 4th quarter comeback after the defense gave up a two score lead. So hate him, dislike him, have your opinion, but do not expect all of us to agree with it.

plenewken
12-24-2012, 12:44 PM
This season is not on BR, that is for sure.

Never said it was, so don't use straw man arguments.
I only said he's not , in my opinion, an accurate passer and I will add that at 31, after 8 seasons, he should make better decisions down the stretch.
I don't think his game has progressed during the last 3 - 4 years and that's both on him and coaching.
I never suggested we replace him but for the $$$ the Steelers pay him, I expecting a better and more consistent offensive production is not too much to ask.
That's all I'm saying.

Hawaii 5-0
12-24-2012, 12:59 PM
Ben loved his old OC, so we fire Arians and then force a new OC on Ben that he really doesn't like.

Ben has requested on numerous occasions to let him run more no huddle, yet we hardly ever let him do it.

Ben has asked several times for a big WR target, we finally re-sign Plaxico but then put him on the inactive list.

we waste our time trying to establish the run with mediocre RBs behind a makeshift OL.

would it be such a bad idea to allow Ben to just be Ben and give him more input into this offense, isn't that why we gave him a $100 million contract?

:hunch:

GoFor7
12-24-2012, 01:00 PM
Never said it was, so don't use straw man arguments.
I only said he's not , in my opinion, an accurate passer and I will add that at 31, after 8 seasons, he should make better decisions down the stretch.
I don't think his game has progressed during the last 3 - 4 years and that's both on him and coaching.
I never suggested we replace him but for the $$$ the Steelers pay him, I expecting a better and more consistent offensive production is not too much to ask.
That's all I'm saying.

1st down: RUTM
2nd down: Bubble Screen
3rd & long: OMG BEN PLEASE BAIL US OUT!

You put any QB in that situation, he won't always be successful. His third down conversion rate before the injury speaks to how good of a QB he is.

Artie needs to realize that kind of football doesn't work anymore.

zcoop
12-24-2012, 01:08 PM
QBs hated in the Burgh? How about the WRs? Burress,Holmes, Ward (when he was trying to get paid), Wallace? Id say the WR position is the most hated in the Burgh. At least the QB gets their money and stay around, with the exception of Ward, the WRs are shipped when they want market value for their services.

cowherpower
12-24-2012, 01:17 PM
You guys believe what you want about Ben. I believe he's not an accurate passer, neither in the pocket nor outside the pocket. His wobbly ball isn't the easiest to catch, even when it has the distance.
He's a scrambler./gunslinger, not the high completion % kinda guy. He can make something happen out of nothing but can also make nothing happen out of something.

It's my opinion and I'm not asking you to agree with it.

all those bubble screens add up to a lot of high percentage completions

cowherpower
12-24-2012, 01:37 PM
That's the issue. One has to realize that even if he's not a top 3 QB he's a top 6 QB for sure. There are at least 20 teams who would kill to have him as their QB.

Let's say we want to improve the QB position. What are the odds of us getting a top 5 QB in the draft the next few years, even spending a first round pick on one? HIGHLY UNLIKELY. And then we'd be waisting draft resources trying to slightly improve one position when we hvae glaring needs on many other positions.

Brady
Rodgers
Manning
Brees
RG3
Luck
Wilson
Manning

I would wager every team would take the above over Ben

Tannehill
Kaepernick
Cutler

three more that you could argue teams would take over Ben

Dalton
Rivers

maybe a few but I wouldn't.

I put Ben as a for sure top 15 QB with potential for top 5 if he would work harder at his craft. He needs to work within an offense. Prepare better and please go to the gym and actually try to make your body stronger and more fit. You'd think he'd hit the weights and try to improve those girly arms of his. That right there bothers me to no end. It proves to me he has no desire to make himself the best he can be. He gets by with God given talent. Imagine if he was to hit the gym like say Luck or heck even Brady does? Maybe watch some tape and take what the D gives him? He could be pretty damn impressive.

You see guys like Luck and RG3 come into the league looking buff and just know they work their butt off in the gym to be as fit as possible. You see guys like Brady and Manning with that never ending desire to win the mental game through film study and reps on the field. You see guys like Wilson and Brees work so hard to overcome their physical limitations and make themselves champions. I just don't see the same passion from Ben. Sure he is a big tough guy who is hard to bring down and who has great footwork and inate pocket presence. But that is what comes natural to him. I want to see him develop what doesn't come natural. A better deep ball, better leadership, hitting receivers in stride, audibles. He is getting long in the tooth for him to suddenly get it. I don't have much hope. Maybe though.

plenewken
12-24-2012, 01:59 PM
Brady
Rodgers
Manning
Brees
RG3
Luck
Wilson
Manning

I would wager every team would take the above over Ben

Tannehill
Kaepernick
Cutler

three more that you could argue teams would take over Ben

Dalton
Rivers

maybe a few but I wouldn't.

I put Ben as a for sure top 15 QB with potential for top 5 if he would work harder at his craft. He needs to work within an offense. Prepare better and please go to the gym and actually try to make your body stronger and more fit. You'd think he'd hit the weights and try to improve those girly arms of his. That right there bothers me to no end. It proves to me he has no desire to make himself the best he can be. He gets by with God given talent. Imagine if he was to hit the gym like say Luck or heck even Brady does? Maybe watch some tape and take what the D gives him? He could be pretty damn impressive.

You see guys like Luck and RG3 come into the league looking buff and just know they work their butt off in the gym to be as fit as possible. You see guys like Brady and Manning with that never ending desire to win the mental game through film study and reps on the field. You see guys like Wilson and Brees work so hard to overcome their physical limitations and make themselves champions. I just don't see the same passion from Ben. Sure he is a big tough guy who is hard to bring down and who has great footwork and inate pocket presence. But that is what comes natural to him. I want to see him develop what doesn't come natural. A better deep ball, better leadership, hitting receivers in stride, audibles. He is getting long in the tooth for him to suddenly get it. I don't have much hope. Maybe though.

+1. 100% agree with you.
2 years ago, I wrote that Ben was the fattest he's ever been and I almost got killed for it here. LOL
Some guys don't like when people criticize their hero.

GoFor7
12-24-2012, 02:01 PM
Brady
Rodgers
Manning
Brees
RG3
Luck
Wilson
Manning

I would wager every team would take the above over Ben

Tannehill
Kaepernick
Cutler

three more that you could argue teams would take over Ben

Dalton
Rivers

maybe a few but I wouldn't.

I put Ben as a for sure top 15 QB with potential for top 5 if he would work harder at his craft. He needs to work within an offense. Prepare better and please go to the gym and actually try to make your body stronger and more fit. You'd think he'd hit the weights and try to improve those girly arms of his. That right there bothers me to no end. It proves to me he has no desire to make himself the best he can be. He gets by with God given talent. Imagine if he was to hit the gym like say Luck or heck even Brady does? Maybe watch some tape and take what the D gives him? He could be pretty damn impressive.

You see guys like Luck and RG3 come into the league looking buff and just know they work their butt off in the gym to be as fit as possible. You see guys like Brady and Manning with that never ending desire to win the mental game through film study and reps on the field. You see guys like Wilson and Brees work so hard to overcome their physical limitations and make themselves champions. I just don't see the same passion from Ben. Sure he is a big tough guy who is hard to bring down and who has great footwork and inate pocket presence. But that is what comes natural to him. I want to see him develop what doesn't come natural. A better deep ball, better leadership, hitting receivers in stride, audibles. He is getting long in the tooth for him to suddenly get it. I don't have much hope. Maybe though.

Fans with dumbass thoughts like this are the reason Bradshaw stayed away from Pittsburgh after he left.

plenewken
12-24-2012, 02:51 PM
So you cherry pick the stats you want to believe in. Interesting,

No I don't.
I find evidence that contradicts what the general opinion is. Unless you prove me that this stat is doctored, you can only accept what it demonstrates.



Never understood the not a fan of players. The current roster IS the Steelers, all you root for is the LOGO then. Hey I understand not liking some current players, but as long as they wear B&G I will be a fan of them on the field.

As for being fan of a player, I'm a Steelers fan. It's the team that I love and root for. I won't buy and wear a particular player's jersey, not my style.

GoFor7
12-24-2012, 02:53 PM
No I don't.
I find evidence that contradicts what the general opinion is. Unless you prove me that this stat is doctored, you can only accept what it demonstrates.

Translation: I make up my own shit because I always love to bash the star QB for what he does wrong but never praise him for all he's done for the team.

Edman
12-24-2012, 04:18 PM
I think this year proved that Ben is a questionable leader and likely still doesn't take his job seriously as he should. I think the issue with the offense isn't merely OC, he's just as much a part of the problem with the Offense as everyone else is.

We called for better playcalling, and more no-huddle, and we were rewarded with a Pick 6 that ultimately lost the game, then from here on out he was terrible. It was profoundly unbelieveable how awful he was yesterday in a must-win game. Just play decently and we're alright, but he was so ill-prepared and unable to do anything.

It's quite apparent that Ben is way too lazy to build an offense around, when he still wants to do the sandlot bullshit. He's a good QB, but he's not in Brady-Manning-Brees-Rodgers territory. Guys who aspire to be the best week in and week out and are their own OC's. Ben seems to be satisfied being "good enough". He has bad chemistry with his WR's, and 8 years in the league and this guy is still stuck on looking down at his wrist for what play to run next. He doesn't take command of the Offense and has questionable situational field awareness. On that disaster in the Red Zone, Ben could've run for the first down or even a TD, but his greediness and bad decision making paid off for the worst as he threw an incomplete knuckleball in an attempt to pad his fantasy statistics.

I believe it's time to say goodbye to this "Let Ben be Ben" garbage and go back to 2004/2005, or better yet what worked earlier this year. Let the guy manage the game and rebuild a running game. Ben's not the kind of QB to build a passing offense around when he's proven to be mediocre or downright incapable of running it effectively without some kind of leash. The coaches have to plan for him because he doesn't appear to be capable of putting the leash on himself.

His recent little pity-party for sympathy doesn't do any good. Hey, Ben. How about making an effort to get your teammates and your offense on page with you, instead of heaping all of the blame on yourself for whatever goes wrong? It's all apart of some intricate 'Superman' complex. Ben wants all the praise when he succeeds so he can say "It wasn't all me, we did this". When the offense fails, he'll happily blame himself, but doesn't make an effort to get his offense in line so they don't make the same mistake again.

GoFor7
12-24-2012, 04:21 PM
I think this year proved that Ben is a questionable leader and likely still doesn't take his job seriously as he should. I think the issue with the offense isn't merely OC, he's just as much a part of the problem with the Offense as everyone else is.

We called for better playcalling, and more no-huddle, and we were rewarded with a Pick 6 that ultimately lost the game, then from here on out he was terrible. It was profoundly unbelieveable how awful he was yesterday in a must-win game. Just play decently and we're alright, but he was so ill-prepared and unable to do anything.

It's quite apparent that Ben is way too lazy to build an offense around, when he still wants to do the sandlot bullshit. He's a good QB, but he's not in Brady-Manning-Brees-Rodgers territory. Guys who aspire to be the best week in and week out and are their own OC's. Ben seems to be satisfied being "good enough". He has bad chemistry with his WR's, and 8 years in the league and this guy is still stuck on looking down at his wrist for what play to run next. He doesn't take command of the Offense and has questionable situational field awareness. On that disaster in the Red Zone, Ben could've run for the first down or even a TD, but his greediness and bad decision making paid off for the worst as he threw a knuckleball in an attempt to pad his statistics.

I believe it's time to say goodbye to this "Let Ben be Ben" garbage and go back to 2004/2005, or better yet what worked earlier this year. Let the guy manage the game and rebuild a running game. Ben's not the kind of QB to build an offense around when

Ah the stupidity continues.....

You don't dump the 2x super bowl winning QB for the OC who hasn't won anything in his career.

You yinzers must be really happy, you get to blame Ben for the bad game that eliminated the Steelers for the playoffs. Guess what, a few bad throws don't mean he's the problem with the team. I believe it's time Art Rooney stops pretending he knows about football and lets the football people handle it. I also believe dumb yinzers need to remember what happened after they chased Bradshaw out of town.

TheVet
12-24-2012, 10:59 PM
It's not only the INT, it's numerous under throws or over throws. I'm not saying the blame lies only on Ben's shoulders, but when Wallace or Brown have to stop running (or worse, go back) to catch a pass, their speed means sh*t.
Ben has never been an accurate passer, so let's design plays that leverage his strengths not his weaknesses.

LOL, fear of compound words. I wonder if there's a name for that phobia, but it seems to be everywhere these days. Or should I say every where? Oh well, "what ever."
:noidea:
Oh, and you don't know what you're talking about, because Ben has always been one of the most accurate passers in the NFL, year in and year out.
:doh:

VictoryFormation
12-24-2012, 11:26 PM
Never take his advice on strippers...

cowherpower
12-25-2012, 12:06 AM
Fans with dumbass thoughts like this are the reason Bradshaw stayed away from Pittsburgh after he left.

wow, what a bitch ass post.

cowherpower
12-25-2012, 12:09 AM
Ah the stupidity continues.....

You don't dump the 2x super bowl winning QB for the OC who hasn't won anything in his career.

You yinzers must be really happy, you get to blame Ben for the bad game that eliminated the Steelers for the playoffs. Guess what, a few bad throws don't mean he's the problem with the team. I believe it's time Art Rooney stops pretending he knows about football and lets the football people handle it. I also believe dumb yinzers need to remember what happened after they chased Bradshaw out of town.

man, who invited the asshat who thinks he's smarter than everyone and likes to criticize legit opinion sharing posts. I mean, God forbid we all don't bow down to Ben and his ineptitude of late. let's all be blind fanboys like this yahoo. :tt04:

cowherpower
12-25-2012, 12:19 AM
Ben loved his old OC, so we fire Arians and then force a new OC on Ben that he really doesn't like.

Ben has requested on numerous occasions to let him run more no huddle, yet we hardly ever let him do it.

Ben has asked several times for a big WR target, we finally re-sign Plaxico but then put him on the inactive list.

we waste our time trying to establish the run with mediocre RBs behind a makeshift OL.

would it be such a bad idea to allow Ben to just be Ben and give him more input into this offense, isn't that why we gave him a $100 million contract?

:hunch:

Ben has some success at running no huddle. But I am not sure the smarts to do it at will. He just isn't.

Ben needs a Big target because he isn't that accurate. Don't see Brady complaining about Welker, Branch...or RG3 or Luck about their cast of characters..most shorter than our guys.

He is no longer deserving of that contract. Why do you think he isn't allowed to run things ala Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Luck, Manning, Romo. If he could do it they'd let him. Do you think they see him succeed at this in practice and in games and say "shut this down. we are scoring too many TD". Or...do they see how things ended in Dallas and are reluctant to trust him more.

MACH1
12-25-2012, 12:22 AM
Fans with dumbass thoughts like this are the reason Bradshaw stayed away from Pittsburgh after he left.

wow, what a bitch ass post.

Lets keep it civil gentlemen

OX1947
12-25-2012, 12:44 AM
When you are a 100 million dollar QB with two Super Bowls, going 7-9 on a very talented team is unacceptable. Bradshaw was a clown during his time. He acted like an immature child, just like Ben. That is why fans ragged on him.

Rowland2110
12-25-2012, 01:29 AM
I can rub my ego thinking i know football since i observed all of this this season like Madden did :)

To blame Ben is idiotic. The season was a failure losing to teams we had no business losing to long before we were mathematically eliminated .
Hell you should be happy its not the steelers that are going to get crushed in the playoffs like the bungles are.

steeltheone
12-25-2012, 03:15 AM
When you are a 100 million dollar QB with two Super Bowls, going 7-9 on a very talented team is unacceptable. Bradshaw was a clown during his time. He acted like an immature child, just like Ben. That is why fans ragged on him.

You cannot honestly compare what BR7 did and how Terry acted? You do remember Georgia?

Edman
12-25-2012, 04:00 AM
man, who invited the asshat who thinks he's smarter than everyone and likes to criticize legit opinion sharing posts. I mean, God forbid we all don't bow down to Ben and his ineptitude of late. let's all be blind fanboys like this yahoo. :tt04:

Or better yet, we're being a bunch of spoiled brats and hsould be grateful and not criticize. We didn't create the high expectations on the Steelers, THEY DID. We'll just have to eat shit and like it. Sorry if 8-8 or 7-9 season doesn't fly.

plenewken
12-25-2012, 06:40 AM
Translation: I make up my own shit because I always love to bash the star QB for what he does wrong but never praise him for all he's done for the team.

If Ben was a rookie, I'd be ecstatic, but after 8 years, I'm sorry but the glass is 1/2 empty, not 1/2 full.

What he's done for the team in the past is history as far as I'm concerned. He's been paid for it, so I'm not going to pay him again. I expect him to continue to justify his status of franchise QB and his $100M contract and I only see glimpses of it.

Since 2008, he's been very inconsistent, makes terrible decisions at the worst time, doesn't look fit, almost never studies coverage pictures on the sideline, runs his mouth way too often.

Oh and I'll be nice, I won't mention his off-the-field shenanigans.

SteelersCanada
12-25-2012, 08:20 AM
Let's deal in facts, here.

Ben is 10 - 4 in postseason play, and has two Super Bowl rings and three appearances. Let's compare that to the other 'elite' quarterbacks in the NFL, shall we? Peyton is 9-10, Rodgers is 4-2, Brees is 5-4 and Eli is 8-3. Only Brady has a better postseason record than Benjamin right now and he has three rings which is telling. Sure, he doesn't play flashy or put up huge stats like those other guys, but he doesn't lose in the playoffs. He put this team on his back for the first half of the season and was single-handedly the reason why we were 6-3 and the hottest team in the NFL.

It's amazing what 7-8 will do to a franchise. One down year and we forget this is the same quarterback that brought us to three title games, winning two. This is the same guy that, since 2004, made us all believe we could win any game when he was at the helm.

Let's stop with the overreactions and freaking out, guys. One down season and we lose our minds - talk about being spoiled.

ZoneBlitzer
12-25-2012, 08:31 AM
Let's deal in facts, here.

Ben is 10 - 4 in postseason play, and has two Super Bowl rings and three appearances. Let's compare that to the other 'elite' quarterbacks in the NFL, shall we? Peyton is 9-10, Rodgers is 4-2, Brees is 5-4 and Eli is 8-3. Only Brady has a better postseason record than Benjamin right now and he has three rings which is telling. Sure, he doesn't play flashy or put up huge stats like those other guys, but he doesn't lose in the playoffs. He put this team on his back for the first half of the season and was single-handedly the reason why we were 6-3 and the hottest team in the NFL.

It's amazing what 7-8 will do to a franchise. One down year and we forget this is the same quarterback that brought us to three title games, winning two. This is the same guy that, since 2004, made us all believe we could win any game when he was at the helm.

Let's stop with the overreactions and freaking out, guys. One down season and we lose our minds - talk about being spoiled.

True. But the Ben magic has been fading away since '08.

cowherpower
12-25-2012, 09:17 AM
True. But the Ben magic has been fading away since '08.

and as if Ben had anything to do with that SEA win. Maybe great against a pathetic D like Arizona. That performance put him in the discussion as maybe one of game's best. Since then he has been average. But at least we got two rings. I will take that anyday.

Ricco Suavez
12-25-2012, 10:52 AM
and as if Ben had anything to do with that SEA win. Maybe great against a pathetic D like Arizona. That performance put him in the discussion as maybe one of game's best. Since then he has been average. But at least we got two rings. I will take that anyday.

No did not have a lot to do with winning against Seattle. You do know that there was a 16 game schedule played before hand and if you would take the time to actually look at his line in those three playoff games all on the road receding the Superbowl then You should appreciate what he did. I know, I watched those games, Cowher finally took the reins off and let him play and without Ben we DO NOT even sniff the SB that year or likely any other year. You fans that say he is so-so or no good kill me when you say he was just along for the ride, what makes anyone think we would of had a better or even equal QB, we went pretty much 25 years and O'Donnell was the only blimp in between. Ironic that O'Donnell has been vilified for his part in the SB loss to the Cowboys when without him we likely do not make it past the AFCCG.

plenewken
12-25-2012, 10:56 AM
and as if Ben had anything to do with that SEA win. Maybe great against a pathetic D like Arizona. That performance put him in the discussion as maybe one of game's best. Since then he has been average. But at least we got two rings. I will take that anyday.

He wasn't great against AZ either, no more than against the Packers. Against SEA, it was a complete disaster but he was young, in the next 2 SBs, against Warner and Rodgers, his numbers didn't come close to the 2 other QBs.
Ben hasn't been voted SB MVP for a very simple reason. He was not the most valuable player on the field, period.

Ricco Suavez
12-25-2012, 11:03 AM
He was against the Cardinals even though you and the media boycot him. He makes the passes and the plays needed to pull that faulted defense bacon from the fire after they failed miserably by giving up two fourth quarter scores. He put not just one perfect pass in the corner but the one that Holmes did not catch the play before. Hate all you want but he was not only a Factor in that SB but the deciding Factor.

Edman
12-25-2012, 11:25 AM
To date I still think Ben's finest seasons as Steelers QB was 2004/2005.

His performance in the 2005 Playoffs was nothing short of remarkable, and even more amazing it was just his second year. Ben has never come close to that level of performance since. It's time to face facts people. Ben is not a Quarterback well-suited to be the centerpiece of an offense. He's not a Tom Brady/Peyton Manning/Drew Brees type who takes command of the field where the Steelers can afford to have him sling it 30-40 times a game each and every week without fucking up. He's just not that kind of QB. Hell, he's not even Aaron Rodgers.

Ben isn't a hopeless cause. We forget he was on pace for his best season before his injury, because he was put into a structured offense where Haley took over the cerebral aspect of it and let him do the playing. He can make the plays for sure, but when it comes to the responsibility of LEADING an offense by himself, he can't do it. He's just not a good decision maker. It's time to go back to making him a cog in the offense instead of the centerpiece. Give him his responsibilities, let him manage the game, and that's it.

The solution is simple. The Running game MUST improve for next year.

defence
12-25-2012, 11:41 AM
Let's deal in facts, here.

Ben is 10 - 4 in postseason play, and has two Super Bowl rings and three appearances. Let's compare that to the other 'elite' quarterbacks in the NFL, shall we? Peyton is 9-10, Rodgers is 4-2, Brees is 5-4 and Eli is 8-3. Only Brady has a better postseason record than Benjamin right now and he has three rings which is telling. Sure, he doesn't play flashy or put up huge stats like those other guys, but he doesn't lose in the playoffs. He put this team on his back for the first half of the season and was single-handedly the reason why we were 6-3 and the hottest team in the NFL.

It's amazing what 7-8 will do to a franchise. One down year and we forget this is the same quarterback that brought us to three title games, winning two. This is the same guy that, since 2004, made us all believe we could win any game when he was at the helm.

Let's stop with the overreactions and freaking out, guys. One down season and we lose our minds - talk about being spoiled.

Thanks for a great read. To me it sounds like the majority of Steeler fans are very spoiled. I think everyone needs to take a breath and realize ; yes it was a bad season everywhere. Offence defence and coaching. But it is a game of inches. We could be easily on the other side in the playoffs or worse could be in tthe cellar. We are what we are; an 8 and 8 team. Ya i'm counting on them to trash the Browns. All the Ben haters; take a look at a team like the Jets. How many years have they wasted with Sanchez?? At least our boy has 3 superbowl showings and 2 rings. Last time I checked; we haven't done that since our last franchise qb; oh ya; they hated on him too!! Merry xmas guys:drink:

harrison'samonster
12-25-2012, 12:51 PM
To date I still think Ben's finest seasons as Steelers QB was 2004/2005.

His performance in the 2005 Playoffs was nothing short of remarkable, and even more amazing it was just his second year. Ben has never come close to that level of performance since. It's time to face facts people. Ben is not a Quarterback well-suited to be the centerpiece of an offense. He's not a Tom Brady/Peyton Manning/Drew Brees type who takes command of the field where the Steelers can afford to have him sling it 30-40 times a game each and every week without fucking up. He's just not that kind of QB. Hell, he's not even Aaron Rodgers.

Ben isn't a hopeless cause. We forget he was on pace for his best season before his injury, because he was put into a structured offense where Haley took over the cerebral aspect of it and let him do the playing.

My solution is simple. The Running game must improve.

I agree a lot with what you are saying. I think Ben is a great QB, but as you put it he's not the type to take command of a game. He can though when needed. Not every QB has to be Dan Marino.

The Running game MUST improve

plenewken
12-25-2012, 01:13 PM
He was against the Cardinals even though you and the media boycot him. He makes the passes and the plays needed to pull that faulted defense bacon from the fire after they failed miserably by giving up two fourth quarter scores. He put not just one perfect pass in the corner but the one that Holmes did not catch the play before. Hate all you want but he was not only a Factor in that SB but the deciding Factor.

Whatever you say ..........

Ricco Suavez
12-25-2012, 08:08 PM
This is for everyone who so easily tosses Ben's contributions to this teams Superbowl successes.

In 2005 in three road playoff games Ben was 14-19 3TD, 14-24 2 TD, and 21-29 2TD, he had 1 (that is one) int. for that three game spread. Totals of 49-72 7 TD and 1 INT. Those kind of numbers and that kind of QB play helped us in no small measure to even reach the first of the latest Superbowls. It is well known he did not play well in the SB, but to not at least acknowledge his accomplishments up til then are down right demeaning.

As far as MVP lets compare two QBs, ones stat line 19-34 1TD 0 INT. Game winning drive with 2:39 on clock and 83 yards to do so. He completes 5-9 and score with 39 seconds left.
Next QB 21-30 1TD 1 INT. Game winning drive with 2:24 left and 88 yards to go. He completes 6-8 has one completion negated with a hold and still scores with 42 seconds left.

First stats MVP Eli Manning, media darling, Second is Bens who the media WILL NOT even consider for the MVP. Only difference is Mannings defense did not give up a two score lead with 7 and half minutes to go in the game.

Thats what I say....................

cowherpower
12-25-2012, 11:50 PM
No did not have a lot to do with winning against Seattle. You do know that there was a 16 game schedule played before hand and if you would take the time to actually look at his line in those three playoff games all on the road receding the Superbowl then You should appreciate what he did. I know, I watched those games, Cowher finally took the reins off and let him play and without Ben we DO NOT even sniff the SB that year or likely any other year. You fans that say he is so-so or no good kill me when you say he was just along for the ride, what makes anyone think we would of had a better or even equal QB, we went pretty much 25 years and O'Donnell was the only blimp in between. Ironic that O'Donnell has been vilified for his part in the SB loss to the Cowboys when without him we likely do not make it past the AFCCG.

No doubt. I wasn't referring to the season as a whole just the game. I also don't fault him as he was young. Afterall, you take that Uncle Rico throw for a INT people would talk differently about that game as that sure TD and his TD run would have been decent. I loved that Ben in the run up to the SEA game. Granted, I think if Palmer doesn't get hurt we lose that first one, but Ben was sick against DEN and played great against IND too. So, just talking about the singe SB game. Up to that point I am loving me some Ben. I continue to believe he performs well later culminating in ARI SB win. I am just pointing out that he did play poorly in that SB game and ARI was piss poor on D and we kinda lucked out in that game.

It's his play from that SB on that I am calling into question. Both his play on the field and behavior off of it. He doesn't seem like a guy who puts in the extra effort. Maybe all these injuries and criticism will make him work hard in offseason and we see the old Ben we all liked.
I still think the receiver ran the wrong route both times and O'Donnel was class act and didn't blame him Does anyone know the definitive proof?

Edman
12-26-2012, 12:05 AM
At the current rate Ben is going, this is what he's in danger of becoming for the rest of his career wearing the B&G... Another Brett Favre.

http://youtu.be/M2Iw2YejS9A

http://youtu.be/YbbZ7_dGTTE

By the way, Favre used to have a reputation of being "clutch" and "magical" early on in his career in Green Bay, much like Ben has.

Ricco Suavez
12-26-2012, 07:42 AM
If this is what Ben is becoming then we at least have two Superbowls added to the 4 from the 70's. I will be grateful for his contribution to those. Maybe it will not be 25 more years til we have a QB that can take us the extra step that is needed to win it all.

GoFor7
12-26-2012, 11:45 AM
If this is what Ben is becoming then we at least have two Superbowls added to the 4 from the 70's. I will be grateful for his contribution to those. Maybe it will not be 25 more years til we have a QB that can take us the extra step that is needed to win it all.

This is where Artie has to figure out what is more important unless he wants history to repeat - being right or winning.

During that 25 year span with no franchise QB it seemed the Steelers may have been more interested in being right. Granted, franchise QBs don't just grow on trees, but they didn't seem like they thought it was all that important of a position.

Gnutella
12-26-2012, 01:26 PM
What I look at is nb of passing TDs and Ben has 23 for the season vs. 39 for Brees, 35 for Rodgers, 34 for Manning and 31 for Brady. I don't have time to look at previous seasons but I'm 100% certain he's behind the same guys.

Is Ben a scoring machine? Nope.

Never mind that Ben's played 11-and-a-half games instead of 15 like the others. He's thrown 23 TD passes in 11-and-a-half games, which would put him on pace for 32 TD passes in 16 games. That's a lot of TD passes.

GoFor7
12-26-2012, 01:36 PM
Never mind that Ben's played 11-and-a-half games instead of 15 like the others. He's thrown 23 TD passes in 11-and-a-half games, which would put him on pace for 32 TD passes in 16 games. That's a lot of TD passes.

That's not how the Steelers want to play though. Artie wants an offense that's run, run, pass, or run, bubble screen, pass. Basically, it's up to Ben to bail everyone out on third and long.

It's not Ben that has to change, it's the Steelers outdated philosophies.

Gnutella
12-26-2012, 01:50 PM
That's not how the Steelers want to play though. Artie wants an offense that's run, run, pass, or run, bubble screen, pass. Basically, it's up to Ben to bail everyone out on third and long.

It's not Ben that has to change, it's the Steelers outdated philosophies.

I agree now. The Steelers have to pass to set up the run.

madtowndrunkard
12-26-2012, 01:53 PM
Why does Pittsburgh hate star QBs?


Why do so many people think you "ENJOY" failure when you criticize a player or coach? The only time I criticize a player is when I'm not happy with the results. I don't enjoy it.. I Friggen HATE it. I don't want to be pissed off at Mike Tomlin.. I don't want a HC that doesn't know what he's doing. I don't want to see our star QB to take a step backwards because he's a selfish primadonna. Lets be honest... it really looks like Ben was nothing but a self centered ***** since Arians was fired. Call me crazy but it looked an awful alot like Ben didn't have his heart into it this year. Maybe I'm wrong..but that's not ME enjoying it. That's not my fault.. It's Mike Tomlin's fault...It's Ben's fault.

I'm also not calling for their heads.. I realize they are human. So they can get better..they can learn from their mistakes. They can also get worse. So Lets see what they can do.

I loved Bill Cowher as a HC... not just because he built the steelers into a power house.. but because he learned from his mistakes. He had bad seasons and then rebounded from them. That IMO is a mark of a great coach.

Look around the league... every great coach had bad seasons and made mistakes.. they learn from it and the failure makes them better. What makes me worried about Tomlin is the fact that he's made the same mistakes 2 years in a row.... or actually got worse. A good leader will rally the troops for next season. Time will tell. If next year is another fail... that will be 3 consecutive seasons of failure.. how patient are you?

LLoyd&Greene
12-26-2012, 02:04 PM
Why do so many people think you "ENJOY" failure when you criticize a player or coach? The only time I criticize a player is when I'm not happy with the results. I don't enjoy it.. I Friggen HATE it. I don't want to be pissed off at Mike Tomlin.. I don't want a HC that doesn't know what he's doing. I don't want to see our star QB to take a step backwards because he's a selfish primadonna. Lets be honest... it really looks like Ben was nothing but a self centered ***** since Arians was fired. Call me crazy but it looked an awful alot like Ben didn't have his heart into it this year. Maybe I'm wrong..but that's not ME enjoying it. That's not my fault.. It's Mike Tomlin's fault...It's Ben's fault.

I'm also not calling for their heads.. I realize they are human. So they can get better..they can learn from their mistakes. They can also get worse. So Lets see what they can do.

I loved Bill Cowher as a HC... not just because he built the steelers into a power house.. but because he learned from his mistakes. He had bad seasons and then rebounded from them. That IMO is a mark of a great coach.

Look around the league... every great coach had bad seasons and made mistakes.. they learn from it and the failure makes them better. What makes me worried about Tomlin is the fact that he's made the same mistakes 2 years in a row.... or actually got worse. A good leader will rally the troops for next season. Time will tell. If next year is another fail... that will be 3 consecutive seasons of failure.. how patient are you?I'm sorry, but a season where you go 12-4 and make the playoffs is not a failure. I also don't get the pessimism. What is with this "if they fail next year" talk? Why would you even think that way? Why not think positively?

madtowndrunkard
12-26-2012, 02:22 PM
I'm sorry, but a season where you go 12-4 and make the playoffs is not a failure. I also don't get the pessimism. What is with this "if they fail next year" talk? Why would you even think that way? Why not think positively?


Any season were you don't win a playoff game is failure. Not only did we not win a playoff game - we lost to a Tebow lead Denver team. That loss was completely on the coaching staff... there was no excuse for that loss - none.

madtowndrunkard
12-26-2012, 02:25 PM
I'm sorry, but a season where you go 12-4 and make the playoffs is not a failure. I also don't get the pessimism. What is with this "if they fail next year" talk? Why would you even think that way? Why not think positively?


I think I'm a realist. Right now I'm not happy we failed to win a single playoff game 2 years in a row. I'm not happy that we lost to the worst teams in the league... that in it self isn't so upsetting... it's the fact that we lost to the worst teams in the NFL with enough talent to be a Superbowl contender. Same as last year.

So it's perfectly natural to question what went wrong and find ways to fix it.

kan_t
12-26-2012, 03:19 PM
Steelers fans are spoiled. Ben had a bad game. Big deal. He's still one of the top 6 QB in the league and I'm happy that he's a Steeler.

And when you have a franchise QB, you put him in his most comfortable situation for him to succeed. So far I don't think Tomlin and Haley did. It seems that Haley just wants to win the time of possession war instead of winning the game.

GoFor7
12-26-2012, 04:00 PM
Steelers fans are spoiled. Ben had a bad game. Big deal. He's still one of the top 6 QB in the league and I'm happy that he's a Steeler.

And when you have a franchise QB, you put him in his most comfortable situation for him to succeed. So far I don't think Tomlin and Haley did. It seems that Haley just wants to win the time of possession war instead of winning the game.

I definitely get what you're saying, but I'm not so sure it's starts with Haley. The Steelers have never wanted a high scoring offense, they always want to be about defense. That's why yinzers shouldn't get angry with Ben - he did exactly what Artie wanted him to do this season, hand off and throw bubble screens.

Don't get angry at Ben because the offense doesn't put up enough points or because the pressure is always on the defense. That's how the Steelers WANT to play. They WANT to play close to the vest. Tomlin has even said in press conferences that he wants to keep the game close and win it in the end. So don't be surprised when this offense doesn't reach it's potential, because that's not what the Steelers are about.

Fire Haley
12-26-2012, 04:38 PM
it's hilarious to see the everyone try to drum up excuses looking for scapegoats without Arians and Willian Gay around


face it - the only thing that changed from 12-4 and 8-8 is the OC

when owners listen to fans they deserve what they get in return

Gnutella
12-26-2012, 05:16 PM
face it - the only thing that changed from 12-4 and 8-8 is the OC

That, and the fact that the defense partied like it was 2009, blowing multiple fourth-quarter leads. Oh but wait; we can't blame the defense for anything. :doh:

GoFor7
12-26-2012, 05:41 PM
That, and the fact that the defense partied like it was 2009, blowing multiple fourth-quarter leads. Oh but wait; we can't blame the defense for anything. :doh:

I'm hoping the defense plays next year like it did against the Bengals - aggressive. This "tackle the catch" crap helped put the Steelers in this 7-8 hole.

Gnutella
12-26-2012, 05:47 PM
Never mind that Ben's played 11-and-a-half games instead of 15 like the others. He's thrown 23 TD passes in 11-and-a-half games, which would put him on pace for 32 TD passes in 16 games. That's a lot of TD passes.

To elaborate on this, Drew Brees is on pace for 42 TD passes, Aaron Rodgers for 37, Peyton Manning for 36, and Tom Brady for 33. That means Roethlisberger would be within five TD passes of Rodgers, three of Manning and one of Brady. As for Brees, he also has 18 INTs, most in the league. At his current pace, he'll have 19 INTs for the season. On that note, Manning would have 12, and Brady and Rodgers would have nine. Roethlisberger would have 11.

So here's the extrapolated TD/INT ratio of each QB in 16 games:

42/19 - Drew Brees
37/9 - Aaron Rodgers
36/12 - Peyton Manning
33/9 - Tom Brady
32/11 - Ben Roethlisberger

And for shits and giggles...

22/16 - Eli Manning

What this tells me is that a) Roethlisberger can certainly hang with all the QB's who are supposedly orders of magnitude better than him, b) he's outright better than Eli Manning, and c) the lack of scoring by the Steelers offense is because Roethlisberger missed three-and-a-half games and the running game sucks.

Ricco Suavez
12-26-2012, 06:13 PM
To elaborate on this, Drew Brees is on pace for 42 TD passes, Aaron Rodgers for 37, Peyton Manning for 36, and Tom Brady for 33. That means Roethlisberger would be within five TD passes of Rodgers, three of Manning and one of Brady. As for Brees, he also has 18 INTs, most in the league. At his current pace, he'll have 19 INTs for the season. On that note, Manning would have 12, and Brady and Rodgers would have nine. Roethlisberger would have 11.

So here's the extrapolated TD/INT ratio of each QB in 16 games:

42/19 - Drew Brees
37/9 - Aaron Rodgers
36/12 - Peyton Manning
33/9 - Tom Brady
32/11 - Ben Roethlisberger

And for shits and giggles...

22/16 - Eli Manning

What this tells me is that a) Roethlisberger can certainly hang with all the QB's who are supposedly orders of magnitude better than him, b) he's outright better than Eli Manning, and c) the lack of scoring by the Steelers offense is because Roethlisberger missed three-and-a-half games and the running game sucks.

Dammit boy, you'll confuse people with facts.:rofl:

Edman
12-26-2012, 07:01 PM
Ben loved his old OC, so we fire Arians and then force a new OC on Ben that he really doesn't like.

Ben has requested on numerous occasions to let him run more no huddle, yet we hardly ever let him do it.

would it be such a bad idea to allow Ben to just be Ben and give him more input into this offense, isn't that why we gave him a $100 million contract?

:hunch:

The Steelers did all of the following Last Sunday. They unleashed Ben, only scored 10 points and now they're sitting at home for the postseason.

THEY LET BEN BE BEN, and they're staring dead in the face of a losing season.

I'm tired of the excuses for his mediocrity. Ben is just a perpetual manchild who will never get it, not to mention a bad leader. He can't handle the offense competently. He was handed a Sedan and he crashed it into a tree. Time to take the car keys off of him. Fuck that "franchise QB" bullshit. Haley drives the Offense from here on out. I don't give a flying fuck if Ben likes it or not.

Under Haley's direction, Ben was well on his way to a career year. But being the rebellious petulant child he is, Ben wanted to be the cowboy, so he bitched in the media about playcalling after losing the game on a play HE HIMSELF called. They handed him the keys in a do-or-die game and he proceeds to shit all over himself.

They let Ben be Ben alright, and now we're out of the playoffs.

Ricco Suavez
12-26-2012, 07:03 PM
The Steelers did all of the following Last Sunday. They unleashed Ben, only scored 10 points and now they're sitting at home for the postseason.

THEY LET BEN BE BEN, and they're staring dead in the face of a losing season.

Ben is just a perpetual manchild who will never get it. He can't handle the offense responsibly. He was handed a Sedan and he crashed it into a tree. Time to take the car keys off of him. Haley drives the Offense now.

What game did you watch Sunday. I saw runs on first two plays for little or no gain and then "they unleashed Ben". If that is unleashing then it is fortunate we scored 10.

steelfury02
12-26-2012, 07:30 PM
What game did you watch Sunday. I saw runs on first two plays for little or no gain and then "they unleashed Ben". If that is unleashing then it is fortunate we scored 10.

They went no huddle and Ben checked into quite a few runs. What is more concerning is that he thought he could lead the no huddle despite not being able to throw a simple screen without it hitting the ground. Ben was absolutely awful when handed the car keys. Just because the O-line was owned and the run game failed, doesn't mean that Ben didn't look bad. He was awful and for the 3rd time in 2 weeks, threw a costly INT in his own territory. On top of not throwing accurate passes in critical situations, he made it easier for the other team by gift wrapping field position and points.

People were thrilled after the Giants game when Ben was in fact on his way to being safe and having a career season. Don't conveniently forget the direction things were going before the offense got the dropsies and injuries trampled this team.

Gnutella
12-26-2012, 07:41 PM
They went no huddle and Ben checked into quite a few runs.

Well so much for him being greedy if he audibled to a bunch of runs.

What is more concerning is that he thought he could lead the no huddle despite not being able to throw a simple screen without it hitting the ground. Ben was absolutely awful when handed the car keys.

Well when your right shoulder is hurt, it's difficult to even turn the keys in the ignition.

GoFor7
12-26-2012, 08:12 PM
The Steelers did all of the following Last Sunday. They unleashed Ben, only scored 10 points and now they're sitting at home for the postseason.

THEY LET BEN BE BEN, and they're staring dead in the face of a losing season.

Actually, no they didn't. It was more of the run, run, pass shit.

I'm tired of the excuses for his mediocrity. Ben is just a perpetual manchild who will never get it, not to mention a bad leader. He can't handle the offense competently. He was handed a Sedan and he crashed it into a tree. Time to take the car keys off of him. Fuck that "franchise QB" bullshit. Haley drives the Offense from here on out. I don't give a flying fuck if Ben likes it or not.

Sorry, 2x super bowl winning QB > OC that never won anything. I know it's hard for a yinzer to get it, but he's the franchise. Art Rooney II is the one who needs to get with the program and understand his philosophies are outdated.

Ben probably doesn't give a flying fuck what you think.

Under Haley's direction, Ben was well on his way to a career year. But being the rebellious petulant child he is, Ben wanted to be the cowboy, so he bitched in the media about playcalling after losing the game on a play HE HIMSELF called. They handed him the keys in a do-or-die game and he proceeds to shit all over himself.

Actually, as we found out when Ben got injury, Ben made Haley look good. Do you just hate star QBs or are you really this dumb? If that's what you want then go watch Steelers football from the 90's if you enjoy not winning.

They let Ben be Ben alright, and now we're out of the playoffs.

Actually, no they didn't, at least not most of the time. Most of the time Ben did exactly what they wanted him to - hand off or throw bubble screen, then bail everyone out on third down (I know your not very smart, so I'll remind you that Ben was pretty damn good on third down before he went down). It was only during the last two minutes of the game they finally realized they needed Ben. When you play close to the vest like the Steelers do, the star QB won't bail them out every time.

I still don't get where dumb yinzers like the one I'm quoting thinks Ben has ego problems or is a manchild. I guess they can't accept that Art Rooney II is the one with outdated philosophies, so they bash the star QB as often as possible to protect the owner's image.

Ben did exactly what Artie wanted him to do this season, and it didn't work. Time for the Steelers to enter the 21st century.

kan_t
12-27-2012, 02:23 AM
I still don't get where dumb yinzers like the one I'm quoting thinks Ben has ego problems or is a manchild. I guess they can't accept that Art Rooney II is the one with outdated philosophies, so they bash the star QB as often as possible to protect the owner's image.

Ben did exactly what Artie wanted him to do this season, and it didn't work. Time for the Steelers to enter the 21st century.
I don't think that Art Rooney II's philosophy is outdated. Winning time of possession battle normally wins you lots of games. I have no problem if they want to have a more balanced offense which leads to long time of possession, but only if we have a good running game. It worked in the first half because the OL was healthy. Once the OL has broken down, the running game has become non-existence again. When the running game is not working, gaining time of possession is meaningless and I rather have the QB to throw a TD in 2 minutes than settle a FG in 6 minutes.

SteelCityMom
12-27-2012, 02:41 AM
Oh wow...we're really going to take what Mark Madden has to say seriously?

His job is to stir the pot...seems like it worked well here.

One thing he is spot on with though, is that starting QB's are hated and blamed for everything in Pittsburgh. This thread is proof.

This isn't the first time the Steelers (with capable talent) have missed the playoffs, and it won't be the last.

The blame lies on the entire team, and coaching staff. I won't pick on Tomlin specifically. There are other coaches involved, and Cowher shit the bed more than Tomlin has so far...so calling to fire him is just a knee jerk reaction.

The team and coaches know what needs changed, and they'll do that. They'll be contenders next year, just like they were in '10 after missing the playoffs.

Edman
12-27-2012, 03:19 AM
Actually, no they didn't. It was more of the run, run, pass shit. Sorry, 2x super bowl winning QB > OC that never won anything. I know it's hard for a yinzer to get it, but he's the franchise. Art Rooney II is the one who needs to get with the program and understand his philosophies are outdated.


Because passing and "no-huddle" certainly was working. 'Run-Run-Pass' didn't cause a Pick 6, missing an open Mike Wallace, or cause yet another boneheaded play in the redzone. Nope, it was our "2x Super Bowl Winning QB" who did all of that, once again ill-prepared for a big game. This time there's no Bruce Arians to harp all the blame on (Though he still sucked).


Actually, as we found out when Ben got injury, Ben made Haley look good. Do you just hate star QBs or are you really this dumb? If that's what you want then go watch Steelers football from the 90's if you enjoy not winning.

Doing it Haley's way, Ben was on pace for a CAREER SEASON, drastically eclipsing everything he did under Arians. Who made who look good again?

What I fault Haley and the team for is foolishly handing the car keys back to Ben. When we ran the offense Haley's way, we had plenty of success, but when we wanted to do Ben's way, the offense sucked.

Actually, no they didn't, at least not most of the time. Most of the time Ben did exactly what they wanted him to - hand off or throw bubble screen, then bail everyone out on third down (I know your not very smart, so I'll remind you that Ben was pretty damn good on third down before he went down). It was only during the last two minutes of the game they finally realized they needed Ben. When you play close to the vest like the Steelers do, the star QB won't bail them out every time.

How come Ben was having the season of his life, if the Steelers were "corralling" him in their "outdated" system? I'm still waiting for your retort to that. He wasn't putting up Average Joe Game Manager stats, he was in MVP discussion. That doesn't happen in an "outdated" dinosaur system that hates Ben and wants to turn him into Trent Dilfer.

ZoneBlitzer
12-27-2012, 04:09 AM
Oh wow...we're really going to take what Mark Madden has to say seriously?

His job is to stir the pot...seems like it worked well here.

One thing he is spot on with though, is that starting QB's are hated and blamed for everything in Pittsburgh. This thread is proof.

This isn't the first time the Steelers (with capable talent) have missed the playoffs, and it won't be the last.

The blame lies on the entire team, and coaching staff. I won't pick on Tomlin specifically. There are other coaches involved, and Cowher shit the bed more than Tomlin has so far...so calling to fire him is just a knee jerk reaction.

The team and coaches know what needs changed, and they'll do that. They'll be contenders next year, just like they were in '10 after missing the playoffs.

I think that it's time to acknowledge that the team is going through a major transition. Wholesale personnel changes are occurring. There are major voids opening up all over the place. There will be growing pains as new players get acclimated. It is likely that the team will no longer be as competitive in the division. The Bengals and Browns have amassed respectable young talent and are on the rise. The Steelers are a bit behind the times. They waited too long to address o- line issues. And they have settled for an underachieving offense for years. Efficiency and execution are not hallmark traits of Tomlin's team. With Ben in charge, it is based on improvisation that is losing its effectiveness in critical situations. There are foundational and fundamental issues with the offense which require restructuring from the ground up. I don't think that this time around they will be contenders. This may turn out to be the transition we've feared.

SteelCityMom
12-27-2012, 04:25 AM
I think that it's time to acknowledge that the team is going through a major transition. Wholesale personnel changes are occurring. There are major voids opening up all over the place. There will be growing pains as new players get acclimated. It is likely that the team will no longer be as competitive in the division. The Bengals and Browns have amassed respectable young talent and are on the rise. The Steelers are a bit behind the times. They waited too long to address o- line issues. And they have settled for an underachieving offense for years. Efficiency and execution are not hallmark traits of Tomlin's team. With Ben in charge, it is based on improvisation that is losing its effectiveness in critical situations. There are foundational and fundamental issues with the offense which require restructuring from the ground up. I don't think that this time around they will be contenders. This may turn out to be the transition we've feared.

I agreed with you up to the Browns being contenders. :chuckle:

I know you're trying to look at it objectively, but the reality of it is, the Steelers will be contenders again in the very near future.

Ben and the WR's will acclimate to the new offense. New guys are coming up on defense. Same old, same old in the Steelers tradition. I'm not worried. There have been worse years than this one, and there will be ones that may be worse than this. There were certainly those years under better coaches than Tomlin.

Many people seem to just be freaking out again (like they did in '09). I know you guys like to discuss the ins and outs of team chemistry, and what needs to be done and changed...and I don't want to deter that at all. There's just a ton of knee jerk reactions that I've been reading. It'll be fine. We're not going to stoop to the new Browns level anytime soon. I truly believe that.

BowCatShot
12-27-2012, 08:07 AM
The Rooneys pay guys like this, Madden, to get on these web sites and write articles like that one blaming the fans. Take the heat off of the owner's backs and try to place it onto the people who actually pay for this stuff. Sophomoric attempt at best. Nobody really falls for that ruse, I hope.

Ricco Suavez
12-27-2012, 09:11 AM
The Rooneys pay guys like this, Madden, to get on these web sites and write articles like that one blaming the fans. Take the heat off of the owner's backs and try to place it onto the people who actually pay for this stuff. Sophomoric attempt at best. Nobody really falls for that ruse, I hope.

There WAS a second shooter on the grassy knoll afterall.:rofl:

Ricco Suavez
12-27-2012, 09:13 AM
I may not agree with everything ZoneBlitzer says on here but I do see a MUCH improved Browns team that has talent for the future. Now it will remain to be seen if they can continue that trend with the next draft and what they can do the first time those rookie contracts expire. But I for one see a team on the rise. Pains me to say it.

LLoyd&Greene
12-27-2012, 10:42 AM
I think I'm a realist. Right now I'm not happy we failed to win a single playoff game 2 years in a row. I'm not happy that we lost to the worst teams in the league... that in it self isn't so upsetting... it's the fact that we lost to the worst teams in the NFL with enough talent to be a Superbowl contender. Same as last year.

So it's perfectly natural to question what went wrong and find ways to fix it.
You're not a realist if you think that going 12-4 and losing a playoff game at Mile High Stadium is a failure. There's nothing wrong with being disappointed at how this season turned out, but the sky isn't falling. There's no need to jump out of the window. Where's the faith in the organization? I think that this organization deserves the benefit of the doubt. You think that you're the only one who's questioning why things went wrong and how to solve those problems? This is just a wild guess, but I assume that everyone in the organization is doing that too.

GoFor7
12-27-2012, 11:18 AM
Because passing and "no-huddle" certainly was working. 'Run-Run-Pass' didn't cause a Pick 6, missing an open Mike Wallace, or cause yet another boneheaded play in the redzone. Nope, it was our "2x Super Bowl Winning QB" who did all of that, once again ill-prepared for a big game. This time there's no Bruce Arians to harp all the blame on (Though he still sucked).

You're right. Run, run, pass didn't cause any of that. What it did cause was the Steelers to be in many close games, thus putting more pressure on the defense. Ben played poorly, but that doesn't make him the Steelers' biggest problem. Besides, he's still won more than Haley in his career.

Hey ding-dong, they hardly used no-huddle this season. They were too worried about time of possession. Have you been paying attention at all?




Doing it Haley's way, Ben was on pace for a CAREER SEASON, drastically eclipsing everything he did under Arians. Who made who look good again?

What I fault Haley and the team for is foolishly handing the car keys back to Ben. When we ran the offense Haley's way, we had plenty of success, but when we wanted to do Ben's way, the offense sucked.

Actually, he didn't hand the keys to Ben. Much of the season was dink-and-dunk, RUTM, and bubble screens. It was only Ben's incredible third down conversions that kept the Steelers going in the first half of the season. So by that, I'd say Ben made Haley look good.

12-4 > 8-8



How come Ben was having the season of his life, if the Steelers were "corralling" him in their "outdated" system? I'm still waiting for your retort to that. He wasn't putting up Average Joe Game Manager stats, he was in MVP discussion. That doesn't happen in an "outdated" dinosaur system that hates Ben and wants to turn him into Trent Dilfer.

Because Ben was incredible on third downs after failed RUTM and bubble screens. He had to be, because the Steelers were more concerned with time of possession than scoring. Haley isn't the one who converted those third downs.

I know you're a sad, small-minded yinzer that for some reason wants to go back to the 90's, but that isn't going to work.

The Steelers want to keep games close. That's why they try to grind-out long drives. That's why they mostly just call on Ben on third down. That's why the WRs are only running routes 5 to 10 yard beyond the line of scrimmage. When you play that style, you won't score many points, there will be tons of pressure on the defense, and your QB won't be able to bail you out at the end.

Other NFL teams aren't fretting time of possession. Their offenses go on the field looking to score. They'll let WRs go deep for a potential quick strike. They don't take points away from themselves because they're scared that they might get into a shootout.

I don't think that Art Rooney II's philosophy is outdated. Winning time of possession battle normally wins you lots of games. I have no problem if they want to have a more balanced offense which leads to long time of possession, but only if we have a good running game. It worked in the first half because the OL was healthy. Once the OL has broken down, the running game has become non-existence again. When the running game is not working, gaining time of possession is meaningless and I rather have the QB to throw a TD in 2 minutes than settle a FG in 6 minutes.

No, scoring wins you games. When you're more concerned with possession than scoring, you're taking points away from yourselves and just putting more pressure on the defense. The Steelers are no longer built to be a team that grinds it out for all 60 minutes. They are built more like a quick strike team. This defense has shown it can blow a lead when only being on the field less than 25 minutes a game. Time for a new philosophy. Perhaps scoring more points will take pressure off the defense, hmm? The Steelers need to stop fearing the quick strike teams and become one.

But no, I guess Artie is right and the rest of the NFL is wrong?

Edman
12-27-2012, 11:52 AM
We can't play "quick strike" because we don't have a smart accurate QB who is willing to fine tune his craft. We have gung-ho Joe in the pocket.

For a baseball analogy. Ben is the Slugger who clumsily swings for the fences with 2 runners on base. Sure a Home Run is nice, but the smarter play is a base hit and keeps the tired and frustrated pitcher on the mound who will give even more runs.

On occasion he'll get it, but many other times he'll pop fly or strike out. That's not efficient and smart.

Asking for efficiency and smart QB play is not too much to ask for from Ben, he's capable of doing it, but his behind still wants to do sandlot.

We "Crazy Yinzers" always have this to fall back on. Doing it "Ben's Way" got the Steelers eliminated from the postseason Sunday. No-Huddle Pick 6. Ben having the worst game of the season doing it "his way". I know it eats you up inside that "Ben's way" resulted in an offensive trainwreck, and you want to blame Haley, Rooney, and the Crazy Yinzers for it, but the fact remains is Ben's Style killed the 2012 season, and he's finally getting called out.

ZoneBlitzer
12-27-2012, 12:08 PM
We can't play "quick strike" because we don't have a smart accurate QB who is willing to fine tune his craft. We have gung-ho Joe in the pocket.

For a baseball analogy. Ben is the Slugger who clumsily swings for the fences with 2 runners on base. Sure a Home Run is nice, but the smarter play is a base hit and keeps the tired and frustrated pitcher on the mound who will give even more runs.

On occasion he'll get it, but many other times he'll pop fly or strike out. That's not efficient and smart.

Asking for efficiency and smart QB play is not too much to ask for from Ben, he's capable of doing it, but his behind still wants to do sandlot.

We "Crazy Yinzers" always have this to fall back on. Doing it "Ben's Way" got the Steelers eliminated from the postseason Sunday. No-Huddle Pick 6. Ben having the worst game of the season doing it "his way". I know it eats you up inside that "Ben's way" resulted in an offensive trainwreck, and you want to blame Haley, Rooney, and the Crazy Yinzers for it, but the fact remains is Ben's Style killed the 2012 season, and he's finally getting called out.

Agreed. I actually recall noticing things changing this year when there was this concern over a lack of big plays. Around that time Ben's game changed. He started to look to downfield for it and that is when he began pressing and attempting to force the issue. Earlier in the year, he would scan the breadth of the field and either take what the D gave him or opt for the check down.

steelfury02
12-27-2012, 12:26 PM
Agreed. I actually recall noticing things changing this year when there was this concern over a lack of big plays. Around that time Ben's game changed. He started to look to downfield for it and that is when he began pressing and attempting to force the issue. Earlier in the year, he would scan the breadth of the field and either take what the D gave him or opt for the check down.

Bingo. This^

The guy needs to evolve - his shit does in fact stink:thumbsup:

GoFor7
12-27-2012, 01:07 PM
We can't play "quick strike" because we don't have a smart accurate QB who is willing to fine tune his craft. We have gung-ho Joe in the pocket.

For a baseball analogy. Ben is the Slugger who clumsily swings for the fences with 2 runners on base. Sure a Home Run is nice, but the smarter play is a base hit and keeps the tired and frustrated pitcher on the mound who will give even more runs.

On occasion he'll get it, but many other times he'll pop fly or strike out. That's not efficient and smart.

Asking for efficiency and smart QB play is not too much to ask for from Ben, he's capable of doing it, but his behind still wants to do sandlot.

We "Crazy Yinzers" always have this to fall back on. Doing it "Ben's Way" got the Steelers eliminated from the postseason Sunday. No-Huddle Pick 6. Ben having the worst game of the season doing it "his way". I know it eats you up inside that "Ben's way" resulted in an offensive trainwreck, and you want to blame Haley, Rooney, and the Crazy Yinzers for it, but the fact remains is Ben's Style killed the 2012 season, and he's finally getting called out.

You really think 2012 was "Ben's way?" I didn't realize his way was run, run, pass or run, bubble screen, pass for the first 58 minutes of a game was. Do you even pay attention to the game, or do you just sit there hoping Ben fails in the last 2 minutes so you can bash him relentlessly? This season was no where close to "Ben's way," you're just venting because he had two bad games.

I love how people say "Haley will make Ben better!" Hey ding dongs, Haley hasn't won shit in his career. Ben has won twice. Now if that doesn't register, how about this - the Steelers offense has been worse in almost every aspect of the game this season. That includes: total rushing yards, yards per carry, TDs, passing, passing yards per play, completion percentage, yards per play, 1st downs, 3rd down conversions, and even yinz precious time of possession. The only thing that is better is sacks - they gave up a whopping THREE FEWER SACKS! Wow! Big improvement!

Face it, they did exactly what Artie wanted them to do this season, and it blew up right in their faces. I think many of you are just lashing out on Ben because if you blame Haley, you're also blaming Artie - huge no-no in yinzer nation.

You "crazy yinzers" fall back on what? The stiller way? You fall back to 90's football then? I guess you enjoy not winning anything.

Edman
12-27-2012, 01:45 PM
You really think 2012 was "Ben's way?" I didn't realize his way was run, run, pass or run, bubble screen, pass for the first 58 minutes of a game was. Do you even pay attention to the game, or do you just sit there hoping Ben fails in the last 2 minutes so you can bash him relentlessly? This season was no where close to "Ben's way," you're just venting because he had two bad games.

I love how people say "Haley will make Ben better!" Hey ding dongs, Haley hasn't won shit in his career. Ben has won twice. Now if that doesn't register, how about this - the Steelers offense has been worse in almost every aspect of the game this season. That includes: total rushing yards, yards per carry, TDs, passing, passing yards per play, completion percentage, yards per play, 1st downs, 3rd down conversions, and even yinz precious time of possession. The only thing that is better is sacks - they gave up a whopping THREE FEWER SACKS! Wow! Big improvement!

Face it, they did exactly what Artie wanted them to do this season, and it blew up right in their faces. I think many of you are just lashing out on Ben because if you blame Haley, you're also blaming Artie - huge no-no in yinzer nation.

You "crazy yinzers" fall back on what? The stiller way? You fall back to 90's football then? I guess you enjoy not winning anything.

Ben was on pace for his best season yet and was in MVP discussion before the injury. Yeah, I know, if you keep ignoring this fact it'll eventually go away, right? Haley is just a big incompetent idiot and therefore shouldn't be listened to. Ben is never wrong. It's never his fault. Just keep doing what he's doing, so we'll have more trainwreck performances like last Sunday.

When the Steelers win, it's all Ben, but when we fail, it's everyone else's fault. That's doesn't work. Your inability to hold Ben accountable for offensive failures is mind-boggling. Arians sucked, but he got all the blame for whenever Ben fucked up. It's no longer the case anymore. Ben was never held to real accountability in this town, so we have a bunch of apologists like you rising up to scapegoat anything within sight to protect your hero.

GoFor7
12-27-2012, 02:30 PM
Ben was on pace for his best season yet and was in MVP discussion before the injury. Yeah, I know, if you keep ignoring this fact it'll eventually go away, right? Haley is an idiot and therefore shouldn't be listened to. Ben is never wrong. It's never his fault. Just keep doing what he's doing, so we'll have more trainwreck performances like last Sunday.

If it came between trusting Ben and Haley, I take the QB who won twice over the OC who never won anything. Does it sting when I remind you of that?

And yes, Ben was on his way to an MVP season because of how great he played on third down. He had to bail out the team after failed bubble screens and RUTM.

Maybe other teams finally caught on to the fact that the Steelers were playing their version of Marty ball, and Haley failed to adjust. Just continued to dink-and-dunk, RUTM, and bubble screens even when other teams had clearly caught on. Maybe next year they should try and let Ben win the game early. When you play Marty ball, the QB can't bail you out at the end every time.

When the Steelers win, it's all Ben, but when we fail, it's everyone else's fault. That's doesn't work. Your inability to hold Ben accountable for offensive failures is mind-boggling. Arians sucked, but he got all the blame for whenever Ben fucked up. It's no longer the case anymore. Ben was never held to real accountability in this town, so we have a bunch of apologists like you rising up to scapegoat anything within sight to protect your hero.

I've admitted quit a few times Ben played poorly, I just don't see him as the goat for the entire season. I know it's hard for yinzers to understand since they make knee-jerk reactions over everything.

This town is full of Ben apologists? LOL! Good one! I guess they also bash Artie relentlessly too huh?

Now Edman, I can tell you're pretty simple-minded, so take a deep breath before you read. No more knee-jerk reactions. I'm going to explain to you how the Steelers want to play:

The Steelers want to play close to the vest games. They want the offense to possess the ball for long periods of time, even if those possessions don't result in scores. They believe this will make the defense better. They want the game to be close until the end. The problem is, when you play that style it means you'll be facing a lot of third downs and the game will be up for grabs at the end. Now tell me Edman, will the QB always bail out the team on the 3rd & long after failed RUTM and bubble screens? Will he always be able to pull magic out of his ass in the last two minutes because the team played scared the first 58 minutes?

It all goes back to outdated philosophies. This offense wasn't "Ben's way," it was Artie's way. You want the offense to take pressure off the defense? Score more. Become a quick strike team. Let Ben do more on first and second downs. Let Ben do more earlier in the game. Maybe that's less he has to do on third down. And maybe at the end of the game, instead of hoping Ben pulls a miracle out of his ass, maybe instead yinzers can wet their pants seeing the Steelers run out the clock after it's already one.

Otherwise, don't be pissed off when the offense doesn't score many points or Ben can't pull it out of his ass at the end.

TRH
12-27-2012, 02:35 PM
agreed.
Our offensive line fails, can't protect the QB or open holes, our running game fails, we lose field position battles (almost always it seems) because our ST's are horrendous on both sides of the ball, our WR's have been dropping balls left and right and making dumb "mind" mistakes, fumbles by everyone, etc.

Yet, what do many of the boneheads around here do? Blame it on Ben Roethlisberger, of course!! Its all his fault.

Utterly ridiculous & insane.

LLoyd&Greene
12-27-2012, 02:58 PM
A lot of those bubble screens are a result of Ben checking out of running plays. Those are usually called at the line by Ben, not the OC.

teegre
12-27-2012, 03:08 PM
Ben was on pace for his best season yet and was in MVP discussion before the injury. Yeah, I know, if you keep ignoring this fact it'll eventually go away, right? Haley is an idiot and therefore shouldn't be listened to. Ben is never wrong. It's never his fault..

^^This part.^^

The Steelers were 6-3 and much improved in all offensive categories, specifically sacks allowed, third down completion percentage, and overall completion percentage. The offense was improving and BB was an MVP candidate.

Then the injury.

And, the offense suffered.

Upon BB's return, he never looked "right"... and the offense remained downhill.

Yet, as you pointed out, some people think that BB's injury had NO effect on the offense. Some people think that Byron & Charlie playing had NO effect on the offense. Some people think that during those last three games that BB was back to 100%, when we all know that he was playing through pain.

In other words, in some people's minds, despite starting 6-3, BB's injury had NO effect in the past six games. Uh... hmmm...

Edman
12-27-2012, 03:39 PM
agreed.
Our offensive line fails, can't protect the QB or open holes, our running game fails, we lose field position battles (almost always it seems) because our ST's are horrendous on both sides of the ball, our WR's have been dropping balls left and right and making dumb "mind" mistakes, fumbles by everyone, etc.

Yet, what do many of the boneheads around here do? Blame it on Ben Roethlisberger, of course!! Its all his fault.

Utterly ridiculous & insane.

Please stop with the ridiculous hyperbole and deliberately missing the point. Nobody is saying it's all Ben's fault. But he deserves to take a little more responsibility for the sputtering offense, especially when he's the centerpiece of it. Yeah, he'll gladly blame himself for the offense's failures, but taking responsibility takes another level he seems unwilling to do. Taking responsibility is recognizing what's wrong and doing whatever it takes to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Look at the cream of the crop QB's. Manning, Brees, and Brady, call them whatever you like, punks or whatever, but their offenses are consistently better than whatever Ben has. They demand the best from their offenses. If somebody screws up, they're on them in a second. They're not perfect all the time, but you can trust them to give their best week in and week out. Ben is not on that level.

To beat those guys, you need to be on or near the top of your game. To beat Ben Roethlisberger, you just need to be decent, as evidenced by all of the subpar QB's who've beaten Ben over the years. Tom Brady doesn't lose to Tim Tebow in the Playoffs, he shows the world what he always was. A Chump.

When Ben played smart early on in the year under Haley's direction, magically sacks were down, the O-Line was playing much better and the offense was more efficient. When he came back from the injury, he developed happy feet, his smart play disappeared and fell back into sandlot play that ultimately cost the Steelers.

OliverPoop
12-27-2012, 04:07 PM
I used to be a big supporter of BB but I fear that he's turning into Brett Favre and can't be fixed.

Riddle_Of_Steel
12-27-2012, 04:16 PM
If it came between trusting Ben and Haley, I take the QB who won twice over the OC who never won anything. Does it sting when I remind you of that?

Since Haley and Ben occupy comlpetely different roles and positions within the organization, your comparisons are meaningless. Sorry if that stings a little bit.

Comparing Ben's wins (that nobody else had any hand in, right?) to Haley's lack of wins (that are all on Haley though, because it benefits your argument) has more to do with their overall situation than Haley's ability to call an effective gameplan.

And yes, Ben was on his way to an MVP season because of how great he played on third down. He had to bail out the team after failed bubble screens and RUTM.

Sorry, 7, but according to multiple sources-- those bubble screens we have hated since years ago-- are mostlly Ben's doing. He is the one who audibles us to that play.

Notice how between two different offensive coordinators, that dreaded bubble screen seems to have followed us?

Maybe other teams finally caught on to the fact that the Steelers were playing their version of Marty ball, and Haley failed to adjust. Just continued to dink-and-dunk, RUTM, and bubble screens even when other teams had clearly caught on. Maybe next year they should try and let Ben win the game early. When you play Marty ball, the QB can't bail you out at the end every time.

Nope. You are wrong. Completely. I have to side with Edelman or whatever his name is.

While Haley was calling all the shots and had tighter control over this offense-- they were rolling. When they were playing his dink and dunk offense, Ben was on his way to a career season, was #1 in converting 3rd downs, and 2nd in ToP (an aging defense's best friend). Ben had hardly been touched through the first 5 games, and was on-pace for a career year.

When our offense started to go off the tracks into the weeds, was when the coaching staff starting listening to Mike Wallace's (and the stupid fans) cries for more deep passing plays, and that "we aren't using Wallace right".

It was around that time, that Ben started to default back to his "hold the ball for 9 seconds or more" self, looking for shots downfield that weren't there. The coaches started giving him more leeway to run the offense, and it turned out just like the past few years under Arians:

* lots of sacks, one resulting in his ribs getting broken
* inconsistency on 3rd down
* Olinemen going down with ankle injuries trying to hold their rushers for 7 seconds or more
* struggling in red zone
* sluggish offense
* inability to capitalize on turnovers

Now Edman, I can tell you're pretty simple-minded, so take a deep breath before you read. No more knee-jerk reactions.

No need to resort to personal attacks just because he does not agree with you.

OliverPoop
12-27-2012, 04:23 PM
I agree Riddle.

Anybody remember that Titans game last year where our offense did a short quick passing attack? We destroyed them (38-17). And Ben had 5 TD passes to boot. Then the rest of the year it was nowhere to be found. Ben can't stand to be told what to do despite success.

steelfury02
12-27-2012, 04:32 PM
I agree Riddle.

Anybody remember that Titans game last year where our offense did a short quick passing attack? We destroyed them (38-17). And Ben had 5 TD passes to boot. Then the rest of the year it was nowhere to be found. Ben can't stand to be told what to do despite success.

I remember

just because dink and dunk seems outdated, doesn't mean the Steelers can't utilize it to their advantage - everyone has been expecting a down field offense, which is why it was working to the tune of 6-3 and breathing down the Ravens' necks. Unless your throws are dead-accurate ala Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees, you aren't going to find a lot of success with a long strike offense.

Edman
12-27-2012, 04:46 PM
I remember

just because dink and dunk seems outdated, doesn't mean the Steelers can't utilize it to their advantage - everyone has been expecting a down field offense, which is why it was working to the tune of 6-3 and breathing down the Ravens' necks. Unless your throws are dead-accurate ala Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees, you aren't going to find a lot of success with a long strike offense.

Rodgers and Brees don't even look for long strikes. They always throw short to intermediate. Very rarely will they go deep.

Ben looks for a 15-20 yard gain on 3rd and 4 when just five yards will do.

Last Sunday: The Steelers are driving. They're in the Red Zone. It's 3rd and something inside the 10. Not a goal to go situation. The Steelers don't even need to score. Get inside the 1 for a first down.

What does Ben do? With a hole and an easy first down right in front of him and no Bengal within reach to stop him from getting the first or even the Touchdown (Bengals dropped back in coverage), Ben throws a ball into a covered guy which knuckles into the dirt in the endzone. It's 4th Down and we have to kick, which Sushi misses due to a bad snap. Steelers get NO points.

Classic Sandlot Ben and a microcosm of the whole day. Steelers go on to lose and are out of the postseason.

OliverPoop
12-27-2012, 04:49 PM
I remember

just because dink and dunk seems outdated, doesn't mean the Steelers can't utilize it to their advantage - everyone has been expecting a down field offense, which is why it was working to the tune of 6-3 and breathing down the Ravens' necks. Unless your throws are dead-accurate ala Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees, you aren't going to find a lot of success with a long strike offense.

If dink and dunk is outdated then that Brady guy really sucks.

teegre
12-27-2012, 05:43 PM
No need to resort to personal attacks just because he does not agree with you.

:toofunny:
That's like asking a person with Toureete's to stop making vocal outbursts.

Nice try though. :wink02:

[btw: While I only quoted this part, as often is the case, the rest of your post was logical & well stated. Good job.]

lardlad
12-27-2012, 06:54 PM
You guys believe what you want about Ben. I believe he's not an accurate passer, neither in the pocket nor outside the pocket. His wobbly ball isn't the easiest to catch, even when it has the distance.
He's a scrambler./gunslinger, not the high completion % kinda guy. He can make something happen out of nothing but can also make nothing happen out of something.

It's my opinion and I'm not asking you to agree with it.

He hasn't been terribly accurate on the deep ball. Even on the routes where the receivers cleanly beat the db's he misses them.

The best qbs make the same mistake Ben made. The deference this your IMO is the turnovers. He is part of that but the receivers and rbs put the ball on the ground way too much this year. When you are -14 on turnovers, it makes it Rey hard to win games. And the running game sucked.

lardlad
12-27-2012, 06:57 PM
I agree Riddle.

Anybody remember that Titans game last year where our offense did a short quick passing attack? We destroyed them (38-17). And Ben had 5 TD passes to boot. Then the rest of the year it was nowhere to be found. Ben can't stand to be told what to do despite success.

Don't forget the pats game. Same deal there.

Riddle_Of_Steel
12-27-2012, 07:28 PM
Not saying Ben "sucks" or should be fired or anything (that is ludicrous-- as always, we take the good with the bad).

But he has to own his share of the disaster. A LOT of the inconsistency and hot/cold nature of our offense is due to Ben's playing style.

Between two different offensive coordinators with totally different schemes, we saw many of the same problems rear their head as the season wore on. Ben is the lowest common denominator.

I do excuse some of his poor play on having just become a new daddy. I can sympathize, my boy is on his way and due to arrive in March. I hear I won't be sleeping mroe than about 3 hours at a stretch afterwards....being a new parent too- I expect to make some serious blunders.

Barry H
12-27-2012, 08:08 PM
Gosh what a miserable season.
We may have won one against Baltimore, but truth be told, the Ravens have been a classier, more successful organization than us over the last decade. They kind of own us. And I don't expect that to change next year, when Joe Flacco is one year wiser.
Year in and year out, there at the top or giving us trouble.
We have a good year every now and then but look at us now.

harrison'samonster
12-27-2012, 08:10 PM
Gosh what a miserable season.
We may have won one against Baltimore, but truth be told, the Ravens have been a classier, more successful organization than us over the last decade. They kind of own us. And I don't expect that to change next year, when Joe Flacco is one year wiser.
Year in and year out, there at the top or giving us trouble.
We have a good year every now and then but look at us now.

what a troll

jb500ex
12-27-2012, 08:13 PM
did he say classier?

FrancoLambert
12-27-2012, 09:45 PM
Did he say they've been more successful than us over the past decade?

Blacksburg Zach
12-27-2012, 10:09 PM
Did he say they've been more successful than us over the past decade?

Didn't you guys know? The Ratbirds won the super bowl TWICE last season alone! What makes this even more impressive is that the Rats somehow accomplished this without even winning the Conference Championship game. That is an unparalleled amount of success.

Ricco Suavez
12-27-2012, 10:21 PM
Nothing like a Raven Troll to bring all Steeler fans together.:tt02:

SteelBobbleHead
12-27-2012, 10:46 PM
did he say classier?

That part made me laugh my ass off. Ass clown all the way.

SteelBobbleHead
12-27-2012, 10:50 PM
Not saying Ben "sucks" or should be fired or anything (that is ludicrous-- as always, we take the good with the bad).

But he has to own his share of the disaster. A LOT of the inconsistency and hot/cold nature of our offense is due to Ben's playing style.

Between two different offensive coordinators with totally different schemes, we saw many of the same problems rear their head as the season wore on. Ben is the lowest common denominator.

I do excuse some of his poor play on having just become a new daddy. I can sympathize, my boy is on his way and due to arrive in March. I hear I won't be sleeping mroe than about 3 hours at a stretch afterwards....being a new parent too- I expect to make some serious blunders.


I may be grasping at straws but I do think that played into some of Ben's poor play after his return. I think it was a combination of the injury and the new born. Not just lack of sleep, but maybe lack of focus. I know he is a professional athlete and should be able to focus 100 % on football but he is also a human being. I know when I had my children most of my thoughts were on them. Let's cross our fingers if he has more children he plans it a little better so the birth is in the off season. :tt02:

Edman
12-27-2012, 11:54 PM
Nothing like a Raven Troll to bring all Steeler fans together.

Regardless of whatever the Steelers do or what flaws they have, fuck the Ravens.

Don't they have a playoff game to lose or something?

Fire Arians
12-28-2012, 12:02 AM
Gosh what a miserable season.
We may have won one against Baltimore, but truth be told, the Ravens have been a classier, more successful organization than us over the last decade. They kind of own us. And I don't expect that to change next year, when Joe Flacco is one year wiser.
Year in and year out, there at the top or giving us trouble.
We have a good year every now and then but look at us now.

and ray lewis / ed reed are another year closer to the geriatric ward

Hawaii 5-0
12-28-2012, 01:11 AM
The Hollow Man Ben Roethlisberger casts shadow over Steelers lost season

By PaVaSteeler on Dec 27

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/5643305/20121222_ter_sh5_430.0_standard_500.0.jpg

The last game of the season doesnít matter to the future of the Steelers success unless either Ben Roethlisberger fully and publicly accepts and embraces Todd Haley and the offensive scheme the Steelers are trying to implement, or Haley is fired.

Ben Roethlisberger can either step up and embrace Todd Haley's offense, or continue being the Hollow Man in T.S. Eliot's poem of the same name.

The Steelers will end the 2012 season not with a bang, but a whimper. At the root of it all, it doesn't matter whether the Steelers win or lose against the Cleveland Browns come this last football Sunday of the regular season, nor does it matter in the end how well the wide receivers perform, or how balanced the running game is in the overall game plan.

Let's get the obvious out of the way first: The revolving door of injuries to the offensive line was a material contributor to the Steelers' uneven offensive performance throughout the season. For yet another year the Steelers were forced to use ten or eleven different configurations on the O line as one player after another fell to injury. Even center Maurkice Pouncey was replaced for a couple of games and started at left guard in another. At various points throughout the season, one if not two rookies found themselves starting. Rookie RT Mike Adams started in place of injured Marcus Gilbert, and then was himself replaced by rookie Kelvin Beachum. Rookie David DeCastro started at RG alongside Beachum at one point.

Rookies starting games, and starting players filling in at unfamiliar positions is a recipe for trouble for any team; rookies play like rookies as DeCastro proved against the Bengals, where he was repeatedly manhandled and otherwise looking quite lost on many plays.

But injuries strike all teams to one degree or another and compensating for them is part of the game. Every team has a variation of "the standard" or a "next man up" mentality; they have to because it is part of the nature of professional football.

A decision was made after last season to retire Bruce Arians (or let him go, take your pick) and bring someone in who had a track record of utilizing the skill sets already in place with the team, and to devise an offensive philosophy that would best suit those skills while protecting and enhancing the qualities of the franchise's quarterback. Roethlisberger is getting older and all the sacks and beatings he has taken were seen as likely to shorten his career.

And yet, the single overarching theme surrounding the selection of Todd Haley to replace Arians, given Roethlisberger's public support in keeping Arians and his expressed concerns over the selection of Haley, was whether the "temperamental Todd Haley" and the "prickly" franchise QB would get along or do battle. Everything revolved around Roethlisberger, or as T.S. Eliot wrote in his poem "The Hollow Men":

"Here we go round the prickly pear

Prickly pear prickly pear

Here we go round the prickly pear..."

From day one the media and the fans waited with baited breath, asking: "Have they spoken yet? - Why not? - What did they talk about? - Are they getting along? - How will Ben perform under the new scheme? - What did Ben mean by that statement? - Is there discord between the two? - Is Ben questioning the new scheme? - Does Ben stick to the new scheme? - Did Ben question the play calling? - Who will prevail, Haley or Ben?" And on, and on, and round and round it went.

The signs are there that Roethlisberger has never fully committed himself to the offensive scheme Haley was hired to produce, and that Mike Tomlin has approved (otherwise, why was Haley hired and the scheme implemented in the first place?). And by failing to fully embrace the new offense, Roethlisberger has cast a shadow that has permeated the entire offensive unit; or, as Eliot wrote:

Between the conception

And the creation

Between the emotion

And the response

Falls the Shadow

Ben Roethlisberger was elected to be one of the captains of this team, and rightfully so; he is a franchise quarterback on whose shoulders the team's success depends. But for all the maturation Roethlisberger has shown this past year, after all the acceptance of "blame" for the losses and poor performance the offensive unit has suffered, it is quite apparent the underlying issues affecting this offense are still unresolved.

...Between the idea

And the reality

Between the motion

And the act

Falls the Shadow

The signs have been plentiful: not one, not two, but all three wide receivers not being fully engaged throughout the game, almost every game, by their own admissions and thus not quite being where they were supposed to be or dropping passes or fumbling at the most inopportune times. And why was this happening? Was it just the petulance of a "I just wanna get paid" Mike Wallace, or the big-contract hangover of Antonio Brown? Or could it be that they sensed that their quarterback was not fully on board with the new offensive scheme and its requirements for quick reads and check downs to get rid of the ball as opposed to the QB scrambling and trying to create plays that aren't there? Were they trying to hedge the running of their assignments under that new scheme because they thought their QB may revert back to how they "used to do it"?

And what of the running game component of Haley's new offensive playbook? Yes, injuries to the offensive line directly impacted the effectiveness of the running game, as did injuries to the various backs. But no running back is going to be effective if the Steelers only run the ball 17 times in a game, and employ a revolving platoon of backs to share those 17 carries. It has long been axiomatic that a running back needs a substantial number of carries in a game to establish a rhythm in order to be effective.

Why then was the running game relegated to such an insignificant role in seven of the Steelers' eight losses? The Steelers' average rushing ratio in their eight losses was 36.6 percent; in their seven wins it was 47.8 percent.

Out of the six Steeler wins with Roethlisberger playing, the Steelers never ran less than 44 percent of the time, and Roethlisberger's quarterback rating was over 92 in four out of those six wins (the Eagles game and the game he was injured against the Chiefs being the exception). His rating for the year is currently 95.5.

Before his injury, Roethlisberger had a cumulative quarterback rating of 100. In the three games since his recovery, his cumulative rating is 82.5. A logical expectation would be that upon Roethlisberger's return from injury, the Steelers would emphasize the run in order to ease their quarterback back into his rhythm. And yet that didn't happen. Only one of the three post-injury games saw the Steelers run the ball more than 30 percent, and that was the last Bengals' game at 53 percent.

Of the six losses that Roethlisberger played in, only one game saw the Steelers rushing ratio exceed 40 percent; two games in a row the Steelers ran the ball only 29 percent of the time (against the San Diego Chargers and Dallas Cowboys). Out of those six losses, Roethlisberger's quarterback rating failed to break 90 four times, with the second Bengals game being the nadir at a paltry 58.6.

Could it be that upon his return, the offensive game plan was changed back to what Roethlisberger really wanted it to be, rather than sticking to the style Haley was brought in to implement? Could it be that the offensive game plans became Arians-esque in order to make Roethlisberger "happy"?

Was it a coincidence that in the week leading up to the Chargers game, Roethlisberger's first game back from injury, Mike Wallace is quoted in an interview that "When I donĎt get the ball for a certain amount of time, I lose focus sometimes," he said. "It hurts me when itĎs time for me to make a play."

And was it a coincidence that in that game the very first Steeler offensive play from scrimmage is a 10 yard pass to Wallace?

And was it a coincidence that after the Chargers' game, when asked by reporters about the lateral pass intended for Antonio Brown that was called when the Steelers were on their own 5 yard line, Roethlisberger's response was "...ask the Coach"?

And was it a coincidence that after the loss to the Cowboys, there was enough substance to the implications Roethlisberger raised in the answer he gave about the play calling that he felt compelled to meet with the coaches and apologize?

Until such a time as an offensive strategy that is equally and completely embraced by the Steelers franchise quarterback, his receivers, and the Steelers' coaching staff; until such equilibrium is reached, the Steelers' offense will not shine, and neither Roethlisberger nor the offense will emerge from the shadow of this discord.

All of the potential embodied by Roethlisberger, Wallace, Brown, Sanders, Heath Miller, Jonathan Dwyer, Isaac Redman and the rest of the Steelers' offensive unit will remain unrealized potential lost in the shadows of Roethlisberger's hollow platitudes uttered for reporters, the shadows of all of the hollow apologies he issues for letting slip a true glimpse of his frame of mind, and the shadows of all of the hollow acceptance of blame for the Steelers' losses. For if Roethlisberger continues to be The Hollow Man then, as Eliot writes:

Between the desire

And the spasm

Between the potency

And the existence

Between the essence

And the descent

Falls the Shadow

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2012/12/27/3808390/ben-roethlisberger-steelers-2012-season-todd-haley

Edman
12-28-2012, 02:30 AM
I'll regain confidence in Ben when he shows a real dedication to Haley and the offense in the offseason. Not some stupid "I'm on board" fluff, he needs to show a real determination and dedication to it.

Haley set him on the right path, and Ben proceeded be a petty douche and spit in the face of the system that made him healthy and brought him much success, because it proved him and his butt buddy Arians wrong and the Rooneys right? That is the definition of a real undisciplined prima-donna. A guy who will cut off his own nose to spite his face. Screw what's best for the team, I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do. I'm the 2x Super Bowl QB! There's nothing Haley can't tell me! Unfortunately we have users on here who want Haley gone. No, the fingers that need to be pointed at is a certain guy wearing #7.

Oh, and it would help if Mike Wallace is cut loose in the offseason. He needs to go.

OX1947
12-28-2012, 02:54 AM
I'll regain confidence in Ben when he shows a real dedication to Haley and the offense in the offseason. Not some stupid "I'm on board" fluff, he needs to show a real determination and dedication to it.

Haley set him on the right path, and Ben proceeded to spit in the face of the system that made him healthy and even better. That is the definition of a real undisciplined prima-donna. Screw what's best for the team, I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do. I'm the 2x Super Bowl QB! There's nothing Haley can't tell me! Unfortunately we have users on here who want Haley gone. No, the fingers that need to be pointed at is a certain guy wearing #7.

Oh, and it would help if Mike Wallace is cut loose in the offseason. He needs to go.

Wear and tear will only make it worse. Big Ben isnt getting better, he will get worse, as he did this year. He has not made a full years effort to protect himself and still play at a high level.

Wallace will be gone, so it doesnt matter with that clown any more. Mendy the same. But if your star QB is going to play and talk like a douche half the season, what is the point anyway. The issue is, no replacement for 2 time super bowl QBs who can play well. So, I really do not know what the future hold completely.

Edman
12-28-2012, 04:24 AM
Wear and tear will only make it worse. Big Ben isnt getting better, he will get worse, as he did this year. He has not made a full years effort to protect himself and still play at a high level.

Wallace will be gone, so it doesnt matter with that clown any more. Mendy the same. But if your star QB is going to play and talk like a douche half the season, what is the point anyway. The issue is, no replacement for 2 time super bowl QBs who can play well. So, I really do not know what the future hold completely.

Ben will probably win an MVP award and multiple awards under Haley and still pout like a bitter ***** because it wasn't HIM and Arians who did it. That's how much of a selfish douche I imagine him being. It wouldn't surprise me if he did think this way.

Why do I believe this? Because Ben himself experienced the success he was having under Haley's system. So wouldn't it make more sense that coming back after the injury, he would return to that playstyle? Well yeah, but you see, this concept doesn't apply to a petty douche like Ben Roethlisberger.

He wants to be successful doing things HIS way, not by someone else, even if it benefits him and the team more. That's why he was so quick to jab at Haley after the Cowboys loss.

kan_t
12-28-2012, 07:18 AM
Why people think that no huddle means big play? Did he really return to his past playstyle? It would be appreciated if someone can post his number of short and long pass per attempt before and after the injury.

Ricco Suavez
12-28-2012, 08:28 AM
A long Blog by an unknown and who has been writing blogs for less than a year. I can appreciate his view but I value it no more than any of the countless others out there. For every post of Ben accepting Haleys concepts completely I can find one that counters with why should Ben change all together and why should Haley not adapt to Ben more. Like I have said I am not completely down on Haleys version, but I saw trying to run his offense and it did not yield great results. Less scoring, no run game, Ben put in obvious pass situations where he becomes more likely to be sacked. This thought that Ben tanked the season as a F U to Haley is crazy. He knows that Arians is gone for good, I thinks he knows that based on the history of the FO that Haley is here for more than one year. But for Ben to just except what Haley puts out there as the end all of how this offense should be run is crazy also. Haley is going to have to adapt and get better him self.

steelerchad
12-28-2012, 12:48 PM
Gosh what a miserable season.
We may have won one against Baltimore, but truth be told, the Ravens have been a classier, more successful organization than us over the last decade. They kind of own us. And I don't expect that to change next year, when Joe Flacco is one year wiser.
Year in and year out, there at the top or giving us trouble.
We have a good year every now and then but look at us now.

Dude.
You must be on Crack. Flacco sucks and the Ravens are major pretenders this year. We weren't very good this year, but the Ravens are really not very good. They are going nowhere and will be on more of a decline than us the next few years. As far as owning us lately. Well, we've been to 3 Super Bowls in the last 7 seasons. Twice while beating them in the playoffs, while they have done jack shit. I laugh at your idea that they own us. That's just funny. If one didn't know better, they might think you actually liked our little bitch's over there in Baltimore.

OX1947
12-28-2012, 01:09 PM
Ben will probably win an MVP award and multiple awards under Haley and still pout like a bitter ***** because it wasn't HIM and Arians who did it. That's how much of a selfish douche I imagine him being. It wouldn't surprise me if he did think this way.

Why do I believe this? Because Ben himself experienced the success he was having under Haley's system. So wouldn't it make more sense that coming back after the injury, he would return to that playstyle? Well yeah, but you see, this concept doesn't apply to a petty douche like Ben Roethlisberger.

He wants to be successful doing things HIS way, not by someone else, even if it benefits him and the team more. That's why he was so quick to jab at Haley after the Cowboys loss.

Results this year and results last year were almost identical in terms of ranking and season for the offense. The common denominator is Big Ben. Ben can blame someone all he wants, he has been terrible when it mattered the last two years.

kan_t
12-28-2012, 01:25 PM
The running game actually got far worse than last season. So much for running the football and it must be Ben's fault, not Haley.

madtowndrunkard
12-28-2012, 01:56 PM
The running game actually got far worse than last season. So much for running the football and it must be Ben's fault, not Haley.

Injuries and poor efficiency derailed the running game. Our running game was starting to look good - then the O-line started dropping like flies. When your offense does not score, you typically abandon the run because you are playing from behind... this and the injuries is what killed our running game.

Turnovers and poor play from our QB was the dagger to the heart of our offense... that is what happened in the 2nd half and that is exactly what caused our collapse. We all thought and hoped Ben was an older and wiser QB... that he could handle the responsibility of carrying the offense. Ben failed miserably at this ..and when he fell short he started pointing fingers at his coaches rather then step it up. Ben IMO quit... at the very least he failed to grow up and act like the leader he so desperately wants to be. His lack of maturity has been an issue his entire career... this season was no different.

If Ben doesn't believe in coach Haley and his system, then it's not going to work. I think we can all agree Ben basically said "fine, I'll do what ever you want...but It's not my fault when it fails" It was clear from the beginning that Ben was not "all in" and I think it's a part (not all) of the reasons our season was a total failure.

The other part: Poor coaching decisions...and to a lesser extent "injuries".

Either Ben grows up and gets behind Haley 100% or one of them has to go.

Riddle_Of_Steel
12-28-2012, 02:03 PM
The running game actually got far worse than last season. So much for running the football and it must be Ben's fault, not Haley.

You are forgetting the fact that the guy who got most of the carries last year, and who is still the most talented RB on our roster-- spent most of the year injured, and then benched due to a petty personality conflict with Mike Tomlin.

In his place, we tried to go with a RB-by-committee, using not so very good RBs. This approach might have worked if our whole Oline was not in the tub as usual.

FrancoLambert
12-28-2012, 02:11 PM
The running game actually got far worse than last season. So much for running the football and it must be Ben's fault, not Haley.

The failure of the running game was largely due to the recent/yearly disaster we call the O-line.
Haley's run sets were disappointing, too many inside runs, and as many have mentioned, our RB's getting the ball from Ben too far behind the LOS.
Tough to do that with Dwyer and Redman; neither is quick enough.
I'd still like to see Mendy get another shot with Haley next year if he is fit physically and mentally.

Ricco Suavez
12-28-2012, 02:17 PM
Results this year and results last year were almost identical in terms of ranking and season for the offense. The common denominator is Big Ben. Ben can blame someone all he wants, he has been terrible when it mattered the last two years.

Bens numbers last year 15 games 324 of 513 63.2% 4077yds 21TD 14 INT 63.62QBR
this year 12 games 269 of 426 63.1% 3131yds 23TD 8INT 61.28 QBR

Rushing last year 434 1903yards 13TD 4.4YPC Mendy 4.1 Redman 4.4 Dwyer 7.7
15 games this year 384 1446yds 8TD 3.8YPC Mendy 3.6 Redman 3.7 Dwyer 3.9

Offense last year 20.3 PPG 21st of 32 teams 12th in total yds 9th in first downs
this year 20.8 PPG 22nd of 32 teams 21st in totla yds 17th in first downs.

It does not take a genius to see that Bens numbers are very similar to last and to see the run game has been anemic. I am not blaming this all on Haley but some of you that are throwing our QB under the bus need to sling a little Haleys way. I do not believe Ben has been allowed to audible out of every play this year. While Arians was more of a pass first OC it is obvious that the run game suffered from the way it was used this year and in turned used even less. Arians was more of a pass on first down kind of guy and it should of opened up the run,(which when he did he was an effective OC) Haley on the other hand seems to be run first, in the hope that it would open up the pass and it would have if it had been somewhat effective. His running was ineffective thus making the 2nd and 3rd down plays that much harder for the offense especially the passing game, but Bens numbers are close to normal so where was the failure? Seems that Ben is taking too much of the blame and the coach and the RBs and the Line need to be held accountable for at least a full share of blame.

BTW Ben a career 63.1 completion passer his QBR the last 4 seasons are 67/64/63/61 or the old way of 100.5/97/90/ and this year 95.5

Edman
12-28-2012, 02:27 PM
Either Ben grows up and gets behind Haley 100% or one of them has to go.

If one of them is going, it's Ben. We're not to keep switching OC's just because he's a petty immature POS. We're not going to win anything? Guess what? At this current rate, Ben will never sniff another Super Bowl with the Steelers anyway, so it doesn't make a difference anyway. Either he gets on board or he goes.

The Steelers can force his hand by bringing in some legitimate backup QB competition, not Old Man Charlie Batch or Glass Byron Leftwich, someone who will actually push Ben. We'll see how seriously Ben will take his job when there's someone gunning to replace him whenever he acts out of line.

Ricco Suavez
12-28-2012, 02:30 PM
I love that our QB is suppose to just change his game to suit an OC, what happened to Haleys "I game plan to players strengths?" If by some of your reckonings Ben went along and did what he was told and it failed its because he "did not have his heart in it". Great reasoning, I mean he ran the plays and the failure was all his, even if there was no run game, his receivers fumble often, he is constantly put in 2nd and long and 3rd and long situations, all because he has not "bought in to the system". I got news for some of you Brady does not agree with his OC especially if he is constantly putting him in 3rd and long. Peyton would not put up with it either. But Ben you be a good soldier and just do what I tell you even if the play calling pretty much sucks, you better not audible out of those plays either. Seems like Ben put up similar numbers from his career, seems he did his job for the most part. Where was the run game, where was the stellar playcalling we were told to expect. I am not giving Ben a free pass his signature is on this season , I just think that like Madden wrote, there is more than enough blame to go around.

teegre
12-28-2012, 02:49 PM
Bens numbers last year 15 games 324 of 513 63.2% 4077yds 21TD 14 INT 63.62QBR
this year 12 games 269 of 426 63.1% 3131yds 23TD 8INT 61.28 QBR

Rushing last year 434 1903yards 13TD 4.4YPC Mendy 4.1 Redman 4.4 Dwyer 7.7
15 games this year 384 1446yds 8TD 3.8YPC Mendy 3.6 Redman 3.7 Dwyer 3.9

Offense last year 20.3 PPG 21st of 32 teams 12th in total yds 9th in first downs
this year 20.8 PPG 22nd of 32 teams 21st in totla yds 17th in first downs.

It does not take a genius to see that Bens numbers are very similar to last and to see the run game has been anemic. I am not blaming this all on Haley but some of you that are throwing our QB under the bus need to sling a little Haleys way. I do not believe Ben has been allowed to audible out of every play this year. While Arians was more of a pass first OC it is obvious that the run game suffered from the way it was used this year and in turned used even less. Arians was more of a pass on first down kind of guy and it should of opened up the run,(which when he did he was an effective OC) Haley on the other hand seems to be run first, in the hope that it would open up the pass and it would have if it had been somewhat effective. His running was ineffective thus making the 2nd and 3rd down plays that much harder for the offense especially the passing game, but Bens numbers are close to normal so where was the failure? Seems that Ben is taking too much of the blame and the coach and the RBs and the Line need to be held accountable for at least a full share of blame.

BTW Ben a career 63.1 completion passer his QBR the last 4 seasons are 67/64/63/61 or the old way of 100.5/97/90/ and this year 95.5

Only eight INTs is great... especially when FOUR of them came after BB returned from injury... (which is much less than 14).

AND, he had more TD passes (24>21) in three fewer games (only 12 games).

Once again, PRIOR to the INJURY, the Steelers were 6-3 and much improved in all offensive categories, specifically sacks allowed, third down completion percentage, and overall completion percentage. The offense was improving and BB was an MVP candidate.

Ricco Suavez
12-28-2012, 03:47 PM
^^^^ I agree, Ben did not play well at times, and as QB he should be held accountable. But to put the lions share in his lap is absurd. Haley not being able to adapt, Injuries, TOs and a LOT of other Steelers not playing as well lead to this 7-8 record so far. Even though I think the defense played above expectations does not get them a free pass, once again we are near the bottom in creating turnovers. Our defense has scored only once this year and only once last year and we are a top five unit. Tampa Bay scored 3 times this year alone and they are near the bottom in pass defense.

kan_t
12-28-2012, 09:29 PM
You are forgetting the fact that the guy who got most of the carries last year, and who is still the most talented RB on our roster-- spent most of the year injured, and then benched due to a petty personality conflict with Mike Tomlin.

In his place, we tried to go with a RB-by-committee, using not so very good RBs. This approach might have worked if our whole Oline was not in the tub as usual.
I haven't forgot. But it seems that Haley forgot about it and put the QB in third and long a lot of time. When you don't have a good running game, don't play like you have one. Haley should be the one realizes that and adjusts.

steelerchad
12-29-2012, 12:23 AM
Ben was having a career year in Haley's offense up until he got injured. He came back and didn't play well. None of that is Haley's fault.
Again. Ben was 17td, 4 int's, over 65% completions, over 50% 3rd down conversions (#1 in the leauge), and on pace for a record low in getting sacked up until the KC game where he got hurt.
Ben was terrible down the stretch, reverted back to his hold the ball and gunslinging. Forcing some bad throws that cost us games. He was getting rid of the ball with the dink and dunk early and it was working.

Injuries, receivers dropping balls, fumbling were all contributing factors to a bad season. But in his first year in Haley's offense, Ben was excelling. I see no reason why it won't get much better next year if Ben buys in to the offense.

OX1947
12-29-2012, 12:42 AM
Madden looks like a giant Ewok.

GoFor7
12-29-2012, 11:12 AM
Injuries and poor efficiency derailed the running game. Our running game was starting to look good - then the O-line started dropping like flies. When your offense does not score, you typically abandon the run because you are playing from behind... this and the injuries is what killed our running game.

Turnovers and poor play from our QB was the dagger to the heart of our offense... that is what happened in the 2nd half and that is exactly what caused our collapse. We all thought and hoped Ben was an older and wiser QB... that he could handle the responsibility of carrying the offense. Ben failed miserably at this ..and when he fell short he started pointing fingers at his coaches rather then step it up. Ben IMO quit... at the very least he failed to grow up and act like the leader he so desperately wants to be. His lack of maturity has been an issue his entire career... this season was no different.

If Ben doesn't believe in coach Haley and his system, then it's not going to work. I think we can all agree Ben basically said "fine, I'll do what ever you want...but It's not my fault when it fails" It was clear from the beginning that Ben was not "all in" and I think it's a part (not all) of the reasons our season was a total failure.

Typical yinzer thinking. Ben doesn't bail out Haley on every 3rd & long after poor play calling, so bash him relentlessly to protect the logo. Please, explain to me how that makes him a bad person?

If one of them is going, it's Ben. We're not to keep switching OC's just because he's a petty immature POS. We're not going to win anything? Guess what? At this current rate, Ben will never sniff another Super Bowl with the Steelers anyway, so it doesn't make a difference anyway. Either he gets on board or he goes.

Yep, dump the QB who has won two super bowl for the OC who has won nothing. Were you one of those dumb yinzers that bashed Terry Bradshaw relentlessly? How'd that work out after he left the team? (I know, don't answer that because it'll make you look even more stupid.)

I know deep down many of you want Ben to be the problem, but he isn't. And I keep explaining that he's not always going to succeed when he mostly has to bail the team out on 3rd down or win it at the end because the Steelers play Marty Ball, but yinz are just incapable of understanding that.

Atlanta Dan
12-30-2012, 08:48 AM
If Ben doesn't believe in coach Haley and his system, then it's not going to work. I think we can all agree Ben basically said "fine, I'll do what ever you want...but It's not my fault when it fails" It was clear from the beginning that Ben was not "all in" and I think it's a part (not all) of the reasons our season was a total failure.

The other part: Poor coaching decisions...and to a lesser extent "injuries".

Either Ben grows up and gets behind Haley 100% or one of them has to go.

Joe Starkey of the Trib-Review says Ben definitely is not all in

Ode to a rotten season

Quotes of the year

• “Haley‘s offense is not a big-play offense; it‘s kind of a dink-and-dunk offense.” — Roethlisberger, two days before the game at Cincinnati.

Roethlisberger said that only to me, yet I read several media interpretations of what he meant and how he said it. Amazing.

Just know this: If you believe that Ben is a fan of “Haley‘s offense,” you‘re delusional. Ben doesn‘t like Haley‘s offense. Period. That doesn‘t mean it can‘t work. Doesn‘t mean Ben and Haley hate each other. Simply means Ben doesn‘t like Haley‘s offense. Any other account of the situation is wrong.

http://triblive.com/sports/joestarkey/3201286-74/honorable-award-mention#axzz2GXgSBc36

FWIW Starkey's column is a nice overview of the many ways in which the 2012 Steelers were such a disappointment

OX1947
12-31-2012, 11:51 PM
Joe Starkey of the Trib-Review says Ben definitely is not all in

Ode to a rotten season

Quotes of the year

• “Haley‘s offense is not a big-play offense; it‘s kind of a dink-and-dunk offense.” — Roethlisberger, two days before the game at Cincinnati.

Roethlisberger said that only to me, yet I read several media interpretations of what he meant and how he said it. Amazing.

Just know this: If you believe that Ben is a fan of “Haley‘s offense,” you‘re delusional. Ben doesn‘t like Haley‘s offense. Period. That doesn‘t mean it can‘t work. Doesn‘t mean Ben and Haley hate each other. Simply means Ben doesn‘t like Haley‘s offense. Any other account of the situation is wrong.

http://triblive.com/sports/joestarkey/3201286-74/honorable-award-mention#axzz2GXgSBc36

FWIW Starkey's column is a nice overview of the many ways in which the 2012 Steelers were such a disappointment

Haley's offense is dink and dunk huh? I guess his offense in AZ where he had 3 1,000 yard receivers was just a dream I had. Maybe he has Ben dink and dunk because for every long pass Ben throws deep, 6 of them are over or under throws. And this year, drops by mr contract year boy.

Ricco Suavez
01-01-2013, 12:10 AM
We had two 1000 yd receivers last year, and a so called bad OC. Haley had Fitz and Boldin when Boldin was good, Beaston was good in their system also. Not to mention that Kurt Warner was not exactly Swiss cheese, he has been to 3 SBs. Boldin was a beast at the YAC then and Fitz catches nearly everything even in traffic. But I am sure that all some will take from this, is Warner could run this offense better than Ben.( truth is he likely could since this was what he had basically done for his career)

GoFor7
01-01-2013, 12:14 AM
We had two 1000 yd receivers last year, and a so called bad OC. Haley had Fitz and Boldin when Boldin was good, Beaston was good in their system also. Not to mention that Kurt Warner was not exactly Swiss cheese, he has been to 3 SBs. Boldin was a beast at the YAC then and Fitz catches nearly everything even in traffic. But I am sure that all some will take from this, is Warner could run this offense better than Ben.( truth is he likely could since this was what he had basically done for his career)

You sure? In Arizona, ownership probably didn't have a problem with letting Warner score points. In Pittsburgh, he'd have to worry more about time of possession.

lloydwoodson
01-01-2013, 12:37 AM
Bens numbers last year 15 games 324 of 513 63.2% 4077yds 21TD 14 INT 63.62QBR
this year 12 games 269 of 426 63.1% 3131yds 23TD 8INT 61.28 QBR

Rushing last year 434 1903yards 13TD 4.4YPC Mendy 4.1 Redman 4.4 Dwyer 7.7
15 games this year 384 1446yds 8TD 3.8YPC Mendy 3.6 Redman 3.7 Dwyer 3.9

Offense last year 20.3 PPG 21st of 32 teams 12th in total yds 9th in first downs
this year 20.8 PPG 22nd of 32 teams 21st in totla yds 17th in first downs.

It does not take a genius to see that Bens numbers are very similar to last and to see the run game has been anemic. I am not blaming this all on Haley but some of you that are throwing our QB under the bus need to sling a little Haleys way. I do not believe Ben has been allowed to audible out of every play this year. While Arians was more of a pass first OC it is obvious that the run game suffered from the way it was used this year and in turned used even less. Arians was more of a pass on first down kind of guy and it should of opened up the run,(which when he did he was an effective OC) Haley on the other hand seems to be run first, in the hope that it would open up the pass and it would have if it had been somewhat effective. His running was ineffective thus making the 2nd and 3rd down plays that much harder for the offense especially the passing game, but Bens numbers are close to normal so where was the failure? Seems that Ben is taking too much of the blame and the coach and the RBs and the Line need to be held accountable for at least a full share of blame.

BTW Ben a career 63.1 completion passer his QBR the last 4 seasons are 67/64/63/61 or the old way of 100.5/97/90/ and this year 95.5

Let's try a little intellectual honesty. Mendenhall came off a season that ended with his knee being torn apart. Mendenhall ran the ball 51 times last year and his health is in question. The other 2 running backs have performed admirably considering they are a 6th rd draft pick and UDFA repsectively.

Mendenhall contributed 928 yds on 4.1 to Arians and 182 yds on 3.6 to Haley.

Let's wait until Haley has a feature back to pass judgement on his offense.

We wouldn't want anyone to accuse you of twisting stats to blame everyone but Ben.

Kudos to Haley for producing more points than Arians last offense in spite of the lack of a feature back, and a slew of OL injuries!

:tt:

Ricco Suavez
01-01-2013, 10:54 AM
Let's try a little intellectual honesty. Mendenhall came off a season that ended with his knee being torn apart. Mendenhall ran the ball 51 times last year and his health is in question. The other 2 running backs have performed admirably considering they are a 6th rd draft pick and UDFA repsectively.

Mendenhall contributed 928 yds on 4.1 to Arians and 182 yds on 3.6 to Haley.

Let's wait until Haley has a feature back to pass judgement on his offense.

We wouldn't want anyone to accuse you of twisting stats to blame everyone but Ben.

Kudos to Haley for producing more points than Arians last offense in spite of the lack of a feature back, and a slew of OL injuries!

:tt:

Facts are facts, and the fact we had no run game yet you still clamor for one is amazing to me. The fact that we had no running game plays no part in QB play or wins, (thats sarcasm). No excuses for Ben it just appears you added other players, coaches in you grand them of blaming the teams shortcomings. You yourself have added more to the Blame pool. And here I thought you were only blaming our QB.

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 10:14 AM
Facts are facts, and the fact we had no run game yet you still clamor for one is amazing to me. The fact that we had no running game plays no part in QB play or wins, (thats sarcasm). No excuses for Ben it just appears you added other players, coaches in you grand them of blaming the teams shortcomings. You yourself have added more to the Blame pool. And here I thought you were only blaming our QB.

I am not blaming Mendenhall for being hurt. He couldn't help that.

If the OL is healthy next year and Mendenhall is back and healthy then the running game will be decent.

The Steelers drafted G and T the same year Arians left this is not a coincidence.

Gilbert, Pouncey, DeCastro, and Adams are the new Steelers line. They need to get good fast and gel fast.

When this happens the Steelers will be on track. Will Johnson needs to see the field more. I need some fullback in my day.

Power football!:tt04:

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 10:20 AM
I am not blaming Mendenhall for being hurt. He couldn't help that.

If the OL is healthy next year and Mendenhall is back and healthy then the running game will be decent.

The Steelers drafted G and T the same year Arians left this is not a coincidence.

Gilbert, Pouncey, DeCastro, and Adams are the new Steelers line. They need to get good fast and gel fast.

When this happens the Steelers will be on track. Will Johnson needs to see the field more. I need some fullback in my day.

Power football!:tt04:

I agree with you on Will Johnson, and, I'm not sure where you are coming from with wanting power football. Do you mean pound and ground - or do you mean the other definition - balance and running it well enough that the defense respects it, and utilizing them as additional receiving options?

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 10:33 AM
I agree with you on Will Johnson, and, I'm not sure where you are coming from with wanting power football. Do you mean pound and ground - or do you mean the other definition - balance and running it well enough that the defense respects it, and utilizing them as additional receiving options?

I formation and runs up the gut. Yeah, use run to set up the pass. Ben is brilliant from play action.

RBs caught a LOT of passes this year. Haley was using RB screens as a running game. The RB receiving yardage should really be added to the rushing yardage.

That is the logical step if your OL can't run block - get the ball to your RBs through the air.

Next year- if healthy- I see good things for the OL. I really like Adams.

Ricco Suavez
01-02-2013, 10:35 AM
Let's try a little intellectual honesty. Mendenhall came off a season that ended with his knee being torn apart. Mendenhall ran the ball 51 times last year and his health is in question. The other 2 running backs have performed admirably considering they are a 6th rd draft pick and UDFA repsectively.

Mendenhall contributed 928 yds on 4.1 to Arians and 182 yds on 3.6 to Haley.

Let's wait until Haley has a feature back to pass judgement on his offense.

We wouldn't want anyone to accuse you of twisting stats to blame everyone but Ben.

Kudos to Haley for producing more points than Arians last offense in spite of the lack of a feature back, and a slew of OL injuries!

:tt:

I am not blaming the players because I know Mendenhall was injured, but you give the running game or lack of a free ride and acknowledge that this played no part in the offense, you need a good shot of reality.

lloydwoodson
01-03-2013, 02:40 AM
I am not blaming the players because I know Mendenhall was injured, but you give the running game or lack of a free ride and acknowledge that this played no part in the offense, you need a good shot of reality.

Pitt 26th rushing 22nd scoring
NO 25th rushing 2nd scoring
Atl 27th rushing 7th scoring
Dal 31st rushing 15th scoring

Anything else? Oh yeah Ben was hurt for 3 games fair enough. If you look at the 12 games Ben was not hurt in they scored 22.5 per game. That's good enough for 15th in the league.

Still no where near 2nd or 7th.

Bayz101
01-03-2013, 03:22 AM
Pitt 26th rushing 22nd scoring
NO 25th rushing 2nd scoring
Atl 27th rushing 7th scoring
Dal 31st rushing 15th scoring

Anything else? Oh yeah Ben was hurt for 3 games fair enough. If you look at the 12 games Ben was not hurt in they scored 22.5 per game. That's good enough for 15th in the league.

Still no where near 2nd or 7th.

Rodgers?

One Ring.

Peyton Manning?

One Ring.

Brees?

One Ring.

The only "elite" Quarterback you list with more rings than Eli and Ben (average QB's) is Tom Brady. Who did Tom Brady lose his two Super Bowl's to? Eli Manning.

Elite? In a fantasy football league, maybe. We can't win a Super Bowl every year and our offense won't be great every year. Get over it.

lloydwoodson
01-03-2013, 04:47 AM
Rodgers?

One Ring.

Peyton Manning?

One Ring.

Brees?

One Ring.

The only "elite" Quarterback you list with more rings than Eli and Ben (average QB's) is Tom Brady. Who did Tom Brady lose his two Super Bowl's to? Eli Manning.

Elite? In a fantasy football league, maybe. We can't win a Super Bowl every year and our offense won't be great every year. Get over it.

There have been 9 NFL MVP Qbs in NFL history that have not won a Superbowl.

By your logic Roethlisberger is infinitely better than Marino.

By your logic Bradshaw is twice as good as Roethlisberger.

If Eli Manning is better than Brady then Rodgers is better than Roethlisberger.

Tebow knocked Roethlisberger out of the playoffs so Tebow is better than Roethlisberger.

Next submoronic argument please.