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3 to be 4
08-14-2006, 07:52 PM
http://www.parentalguide.com/Documents/Jews_Information_Desk/Forcast_of_jesus.htm

Mosca
08-15-2006, 08:08 AM
So I guess the next question is, what's wrong with them NOT believing in Jesus?

3 to be 4
08-15-2006, 12:27 PM
So I guess the next question is, what's wrong with them NOT believing in Jesus?

because per the Old Testament, written by their own people, not believing in Jesus as the Messiah is incorrect.
I am Jewish myself. For years I took it for granted, because 99% of Jews say so, that Jesus wasnt the Son of God. I was led astray by culture and guilt. When I took the time to actually READ the Scripture, it became clear to me I was wrong.

People assume all Faith is "blind faith". And people can believe in whatever they want. But it is wise to know WHY you believe as you do. And it was placed on my heart to share this because leading people to the love of Christ and the truth is far more important than worrying about people you may offend along the way in this politically correct world.

I hesitated and didnt talk to my mother about this. Then she died. Souls are being lost every day. People have free will to reject it. But it is the responsibility of every follower of Christ to carry the message.

Mosca
08-15-2006, 01:26 PM
I think we're going to have to "agree to disagree" on this one. You say yours is the only one, Jews say theirs is the only one, Muslims say theirs is the only one, and the proof for all of them is the same; faith, and books written by men claiming to be divinely inspired by god.

3 to be 4
08-15-2006, 01:52 PM
I think we're going to have to "agree to disagree" on this one. You say yours is the only one, Jews say theirs is the only one, Muslims say theirs is the only one, and the proof for all of them is the same; faith, and books written by men claiming to be divinely inspired by god.


But was I wrong by laying out Scriptural reasons? I welcome a Scriptural response from a Jew or a Muslim.

It isnt Faith if you dont believe it to be the truth. My thread said "Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus". Offering reasons. Its out on the table to be countered.

But usually, the messenger is told he is being offensive, and the reasoning offered is never answered.

A major difference between Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Christians and Jews only disagree on who the Messiah is. Muslims want to annihilate Christians and Jews. hmmm

Mosca
08-15-2006, 02:28 PM
But if you lay out the argument that way, only allowing scriptural responses, then you have created a system of logic by which you cannot be challenged. If you allow ANY responses, then you complain that the messenger is being attacked. What if someone doesn't believe in any religion at all? All religious faith MUST be blind faith, because there is nothing other than that faith to offer up as truth. You point me toward this book, another guy points me toward a different book, and a third points me toward a guru, and six other people point toward their book or their shaman or their ashram. And looking at the world tells me something completely different. Pick one and believe it, but there's no reason your choice is any more valid than anyone elses', your faith is as well placed there as theirs is in what they believe.

Re: annihilation; Muslims want to annihilate Christians and Jews... 700 years ago Christians wanted to annihilate Muslims, 65 years ago Christians tried to annihilate Jews*. Now Christians want to annihilate Muslims again in retaliation. None have the higher moral ground, that I can see. You can argue that those Christians aren't true Christians, Muslims can argue that the terrorist fanatics aren't true Muslims, but you can't have it both ways.


Tom

*"God had been drafted into national politics before, but Hitler’s success in fusing racial dogma with a Germanic Christianity was an immensely powerful element in his electoral campaigns. Some people recognized the moral perils of mixing religion and politics, but many more were seduced by it. It was the pseudo-religious transfiguration of politics that largely ensured his success, notably in Protestant areas."

-- Fritz Stern, historian and refugee from Nazi Germany

Livinginthe past
08-15-2006, 02:28 PM
I didn't take Mosca's post to be an attack on your original post - just an observation that religion and compromise exist in two very different worlds.

The basic premise of most religions appears to be 'believe in what we are telling you - or else spend eternity in the firey depths of hell - or an equivalent of hell'

To believe in one religion is to dismiss the possibility that other religions have a basis in reality.

Its healthy to have these debates out in the open, as you have shown.

NM

Mosca
08-15-2006, 02:43 PM
But usually, the messenger is told he is being offensive, and the reasoning offered is never answered.

And where did I attack you ("the messenger")? I like you, I'd never consider attacking you. I did ask a question, and I did say that we'd have to agree to disagree, but I don't think I attacked you.


Tom

3 to be 4
08-15-2006, 03:57 PM
And where did I attack you ("the messenger")? I like you, I'd never consider attacking you. I did ask a question, and I did say that we'd have to agree to disagree, but I don't think I attacked you.


Tom


When did I say you attacked me? LITP said he didnt think you attacked me. But I never used the word attack. I said "usually the messanger is told he is being offensive..." and even then, I said "usually the messenger is told" i didnt say Mosca is attacking me.

another irony, you mentioned you cant debate scripture. Usually im told you cant debate blind faith. Which is it?
actually, you can certainly discuss interpretations of scripture, especially when the 2 parties, Christians and Jews, are different only in their interpretations of the same book!
the Old Testament. Jews wrote the Old Testament. Jewish leaders, along with the Romans said Jesus couldnt be the Messiah because he performed miracles on the sabbath.
they were basing an arguement on interpretation. While someone else could look at things in the same book to determine that Jesus was the Messiah. It is a very healthy discussion.

It serves the non-believers purposes to think that Christianity or any religion can only be "Blind Faith", leaving all the evidence and logic to everybody else. But once again when the most scutinized and authenticated book in history contains prophesies, and hundreds of them are fulfilled in one man, hundreds of years later, it makes a pretty good intellectual Case for Christ. That, AND personal spiritual experiences make up our faith.
Not to mention hundreds of witnesses to the Resurrected Christ who all went to torturous deaths instead of saving themselves by recanting their stories. Who would let themselves get tortured to death for a lie?

I grant you that Muslims can do try to do the same thing. And again, im open to a Muslim to find a different interpretation. And I agree, all religions have had their shares of murderers who did it in the "name of God". But generally Christians and Jews have renounced such behavior. Read some of comments by Arab leaders lately about the future of Israel?

Livinginthe past
08-15-2006, 04:12 PM
When did I say you attacked me? LITP said he didnt think you attacked me. But I never used the word attack. I said "usually the messanger is told he is being offensive..." and even then, I said "usually the messenger is told" i didnt say Mosca is attacking me.

another irony, you mentioned you cant debate scripture. Usually im told you cant debate blind faith. Which is it?
actually, you can certainly discuss interpretations of scripture, especially when the 2 parties, Christians and Jews, are different only in their interpretations of the same book!
the Old Testament. Jews wrote the Old Testament. Jewish leaders, along with the Romans said Jesus couldnt be the Messiah because he performed miracles on the sabbath.
they were basing an arguement on interpretation. While someone else could look at things in the same book to determine that Jesus was the Messiah. It is a very healthy discussion.

It serves the non-believers purposes to think that Christianity or any religion can only be "Blind Faith", leaving all the evidence and logic to everybody else. But once again when the most scutinized and authenticated book in history contains prophesies, and hundreds of them are fulfilled in one man, hundreds of years later, it makes a pretty good intellectual Case for Christ. That, AND personal spiritual experiences make up our faith.
Not to mention hundreds of witnesses to the Resurrected Christ who all went to torturous deaths instead of saving themselves by recanting their stories. Who would let themselves get tortured to death for a lie?

I grant you that Muslims can do try to do the same thing. And again, im open to a Muslim to find a different interpretation. And I agree, all religions have had their shares of murderers who did it in the "name of God". But generally Christians and Jews have renounced such behavior. Read some of comments by Arab leaders lately about the future of Israel?

Apologies if I misunderstood your meaning.

If I told someone that they were being 'offensive' then I would imagine I was 'attacking' and what they were saying.

Its rare that someone of a religious bent is willing to open up his faith for discussion - I applaud you for that.

Often its a case of "I believe in it and thats that".

NM

Mosca
08-15-2006, 05:00 PM
I misread your post; I read "as usual the messenger...", not "usually the messenger". I'm sorry. I did think it was out of character, you are a straight shooter and woudn't take offense that way. As I said, I enjoy sometimes agreeing with you and sometimes disagreeing with you.

I think scripture IS blind faith. Understand that I'm not criticizing it, only saying that it must be accepted as true by faith without proof (an argument that is one of the pillars of Christianity, btw; "faith vs works" and Thomas' requirement that Jesus PROVE to him that he is the risen lord, and Jesus' reply). As far as differing interpretations, the Aryan Nations use it to justify their hate-filled doctrine, and Quakers use it to justify their peaceful, pacifist creed. So yes, it is open to some mighty extremes of interpretation.

I'm one of those people who draws a line between the meaning of "believe" and the meaning of "know". In the Catholic mass, we sometimes do a call-and-response called the Profession of Faith; it concludes with the priest incanting, "This is our faith. This is what we believe." My feeling (and the message of John 20: 24-29) is that it is much more powerful to believe something without knowing it than it is to only believe it after requiring proof (and I think that you probably strongly agree). Therefore, attempts to ground Scripture in reality actually weaken its power. To accept it as blind faith is to accept it at full strength.

In the end, doesn't it come down to treating others with respect? And when I ask that admittedly leading question, I'm asking, isn't it the right thing to do to respect Jewish teaching regarding their religion? After all, they've had the same couple thousand years to analyze the same words, and they've come up with a different answer that seems to work well for them.

Do you see what I'm getting at? Although it can be seen as Christian to attempt to use the scripture as part of a logical argument to show that Jews are wrong to not accept Jesus, it can also be seen as an attempt to use scripture for unChristian actions such as persecution of Jews and those of other religions. In the end, everyone has to use their faith to temper what they KNOW to be right. Respect for others' religions is one of those things. To me, anyhow.


Tom

MasterOfPuppets
08-15-2006, 05:14 PM
Scripture teaches that one should destroy one's enemies, and take an eye for an eye: "Thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies, that I might destroy them. (Samuel 22:40-42)...Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot." (Deuteronomy 19:20-22 )



In his second letter to Timothy, Paul confirms that Scripture is the infallible word of God: “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17)





However, Matthew apparently thought that Jesus contradicted Scripture's teaching of destruction of one's enemies, and taking an eye an eye, a life for a life:



Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:38-39)...Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you. (Matthew 5:38-44)





Was Matthew mistaken about what Jesus said, or was Paul wrong about Scripture being the word of God? Either way, one of these writers must have been wrong. If not, why not?

tony hipchest
08-15-2006, 05:31 PM
i think when you study all major religions one seems to make the most sense. one does a better job of explaining mans age old questions even better than scientists can.

the koran, the torah and the christian old testament all start out the same with the 5 books written by moses. the jews for some strange reason are still waiting to complete their book and explain the prophesies within. mohammeds response was a day late and really seemed like a response to the rapid growth and belief in Christ.

i must say that God gave his beloved people of the tigris eupharates valley the gift of domestication, agriculture, civilization, written language and historical record keeping for a reason. in the nuclear age, there is a reason that the message of love proves to be more beneficial to our species than a message of hate and war. no man who lived back then to write a "story" that would be so gripping, foretelling, and encapsulating.

for those who ask another man for proof of a supreme being they will never find the answer they look for. for those who ask God they will never be denied. there are reasons why you hear the catchphrases "eyes being opened" and "hearts being opened" when one decides to take a leap of faith. theres a reason that the knowledge and understanding and calming sense of well being accompanies those with "blind faith".

the "blind faith" is just the 1st step in openning up to the truth. after that its not blind anymore. asking a christian to explain it is like asking the most knowledgable scientist in the world to explane how outer space can go on in all directions for ever and ever. to me believing that is just as much as blind faithas anything else.

3 to be 4
08-15-2006, 05:48 PM
Apologies if I misunderstood your meaning.

If I told someone that they were being 'offensive' then I would imagine I was 'attacking' and what they were saying.

Its rare that someone of a religious bent is willing to open up his faith for discussion - I applaud you for that.

Often its a case of "I believe in it and thats that".

NM

I think I have the blessing of living 42 years as a Non-believing Jew and since then being a believer in Christ. Seeing it from both sides makes me want to do more than the usual "your gonna all burn in hell" thing because I know how that pushed me away. Nobody should come to Christ out of fear. I didnt do it to get into Heaven or be accepted by anybody. I did it because, for one thing, it came to me by Grace, and because for me, the Lord deserves it. I did it because I was attracted by Jesus love. And the more I learned the more it made sense for intelligent reasons as well. When I got Born Again, I remember right away saying to God "Im not going to be the kind of Christian ive always seen. I dont know how you are going to do it, but show me how to walk it differently, not for Christians or Christianity, but for you" I want to relate to people Ive known, who didnt believe for the same reasons I didnt believe. Most Jews ive known in my family dont have a clue why they believe what they do, other than their parents expected it of them. I went to source, the Scripture, and I found more reasons for a Jew to accept Christ than to not accept Christ. I am always open to hear discussion about it. Ive been there. But when my focus got off the sloppy messengers and religion and onto Jesus himself, it became clear to me.

Mosca
08-15-2006, 05:56 PM
asking a christian to explain it is like asking the most knowledgable scientist in the world to explane how outer space can go on in all directions for ever and ever. to me believing that is just as much as blind faithas anything else.

What a lot of people don't realize is that quantum physics, and by extension quantum astrophysics, are all mathematical intepretations of reality. I'm as die-hard a believer in science as you will ever find in your life, and this still just completly blows my mind. What happens is, a series of equations are used to describe the world; then those equations are used to predict, "What will happen if we try THIS?" Thing is, those predictions keep coming up right. The computers we are using to communicate are a perfect example of quantum technology in action. That's spooky as hell. Once you realize that two intertwined particles at different ends of the universe will act in concert, and no particle or planet or body can exist independent of the gravity of every other object in the universe, you start to understand that reality is really one big thing, not lots of discreet little things. Again, it's truly mind-blowing.

Is God in the equations? I have no idea. And the answer has no relation to the original question, but I liked your analogy. Even KNOWING stuff sometimes takes a leap of faith!


Tom

SteelCzar76
08-15-2006, 05:58 PM
The basic premise of most religions appears to be 'believe in what we are telling you - or else spend eternity in the firey depths of hell - or an equivalent of hell'

To believe in one religion is to dismiss the possibility that other religions have a basis in reality.

NM


Picture varying religions as different "phone numbers" to the same parent. Except,...certain numbers will work for only certain individual's. The "secret to life" is finding which one is the correct one for YOU. Think about it,....if everyone had but a single way to contact this parent whom cannot fail,...existence,...at least in this physical realm,.. could not continue to function,.... as it needs all level's of the "food chain" (SO TO SPEAK) to exist.

Example,...you have two men,..both equaly devot and righteous, both Christian but yet one prospers while the other fails and suffers miserably. They're both honoring the same parent,..it's just that the latter is not using the correct number that was given to him at birth.

For the most part organized religion in all forms has been used as a doctrine of control and power by those whom have found what works for them. SEEK,... your own personal truth and respect the same such quest of others.


"Hail Caesar,....Hail the Black and Gold"

Oh yeah,...Living in the past,....you gotta be born in 76 ??

tony hipchest
08-15-2006, 06:03 PM
Was Matthew mistaken about what Jesus said, or was Paul wrong about Scripture being the word of God? Either way, one of these writers must have been wrong. If not, why not?very complex subject. from what ive learned (and this is from studying the bible as literature at unm, not at a church) is that their are many discrepancies in the bible. even the 1st 4 books of the new testament (which all tell pretty much the same story) have contradictions.

believe it or not this lends a bit of veracity. wouldnt it be a little suspiciou and agains human nature if 4 different authors told the exact same story. it would seem a bit contrived.

paul and peter had many differences. paul was a roman who prosecuted jews. peter was your typical jew.

to make it simple the laws of the old testament worked for quite a while but when judaism became a religion of elitism and measured by wealth God decided it was time to set things straight and send his only begotten son.

a simplified debate on this subject can be seen when peter and paul debated on whether one could eat pork or not and remain holy. peter believed sin was what you put in your stomach while paul preached that sin was what was in your heart.

Mosca
08-15-2006, 06:07 PM
I think I have the blessing of living 42 years as a Non-believing Jew and since then being a believer in Christ. Seeing it from both sides makes me want to do more than the usual "your gonna all burn in hell" thing because I know how that pushed me away. Nobody should come to Christ out of fear. I didnt do it to get into Heaven or be accepted by anybody. I did it because, for one thing, it came to me by Grace, and because for me, the Lord deserves it. I did it because I was attracted by Jesus love. And the more I learned the more it made sense for intelligent reasons as well. When I got Born Again, I remember right away saying to God "Im not going to be the kind of Christian ive always seen. I dont know how you are going to do it, but show me how to walk it differently, not for Christians or Christianity, but for you" I want to relate to people Ive known, who didnt believe for the same reasons I didnt believe. Most Jews ive known in my family dont have a clue why they believe what they do, other than their parents expected it of them. I went to source, the Scripture, and I found more reasons for a Jew to accept Christ than to not accept Christ. I am always open to hear discussion about it. Ive been there. But when my focus got off the sloppy messengers and religion and onto Jesus himself, it became clear to me.


Excellent, great post. It takes a lot of courage in this world to see clearly the Christian message, and to ignore all the ways people try to pervert it and twist it to their own advantage.

(I have no special insight into what that is, I'm not claiming that you've joined me. I'm a rat bastard doubting sinner and always will be, but I try my best.)

Tom

tony hipchest
08-15-2006, 06:18 PM
What a lot of people don't realize is that quantum physics, and by extension quantum astrophysics, are all mathematical intepretations of reality. I'm as die-hard a believer in science as you will ever find in your life, and this still just completly blows my mind. What happens is, a series of equations are used to describe the world; then those equations are used to predict, "What will happen if we try THIS?" Thing is, those predictions keep coming up right. The computers we are using to communicate are a perfect example of quantum technology in action. That's spooky as hell. Once you realize that two intertwined particles at different ends of the universe will act in concert, and no particle or planet or body can exist independent of the gravity of every other object in the universe, you start to understand that reality is really one big thing, not lots of discreet little things. Again, it's truly mind-blowing.

Is God in the equations? I have no idea. And the answer has no relation to the original question, but I liked your analogy. Even KNOWING stuff sometimes takes a leap of faith!


Tomim glad you got my point. i have tried to understand the quantum physics and the mysteries of space and infinity are the things that have kept me up at night thinking the most. the big bang theory is so plausible (and i trully believe in it and evolution) i just believe that the big bang was when God snapped his fingers and said "let their be light. to me science and nature and the forces that make this world work are the forces of God. that thing that separates us from the rest of the organisms on earth is the proof.

to me one of the biggest wastes of an argument is creationism vs. evolution. people who believe man has been around for only 5000 years is kinda wack. science proves otherwise. how can you measure a day to God and a day or year to man when the days that God created the universe (6 days) were in place before the heavens and the earth were seperated or the sun and moon were created (a "day" is only relevant on earth. it is a measurement created by man. its all allegory.

and as for all the equations and math that helps explain the universe, while it kinda makes sense, i still cant figure out WHY little grooves on a piece of vinyl can replicate to perfection music or ones voice. :sofunny: some things i understand "why", but the "how" is the tricky part.

MasterOfPuppets
08-15-2006, 06:34 PM
i still cant figure out WHY little grooves on a piece of vinyl can replicate to perfection music or ones voice. some things i understand "why", but the "how" is the tricky part.

actually it didn't,that's why we have cd's now...:sofunny:

Hawk Believer
08-15-2006, 06:42 PM
Here is some unsolicited reccomended reading for those of you interested in provactive challenges to contemporary Christianity.

Both are written by a one time Anglican Bishop named John Shelby Spong.

The first is called Why Christianity Must Change or Die. His thesis is that mankind has developed greatly in its ablility to deal with abstract thought over the last few thousand years. But he feels that Christianity relies too much on symbolic mythology that is no longer neccessary to communicate to the masses and as a result is killing itself off.http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060675365/002-8996588-3151221?v=glance&n=283155

The second book is called A New Christianity for a New world. This book outlines hispersonal vision of how the Christianity could morph into a more relevant religion.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060670630/ref=pd_sim_b_2/002-8996588-3151221?ie=UTF8

A lot of his thoughts would be considered blasphemous by fundamentalists. So if you are a strict interprontationist of the Bible, the books are not worth your time.

Personally, whenever I have a belief about something I think is important, I like to invite challenges to my premise to see if my belief will stand up to the challenges. If my argument stands the test then I feel stronger in my convicitions. If it doesn't stand up, I then develop a new perspective. I found these books to be chock full of challenges to my Christian beliefs. If nothing else, they will lead to some good theological discussions if you can get someone else to read it along with you.

Mosca
08-15-2006, 06:50 PM
If we could actually know God, then God wouldn't be God. As knowledge advances, God becomes ever more mysterious and recedes farther away.

It used to be obvious that God was of the world; did you get struck by lightning? Then you must have displeased God, who called down his power unto you. Then Franklin proved lightning was a natural phenomenon, and gradually explanations for worldly events became the realm of science and knowledge, and God's realm became that of the abstract and unknowable.

Now, as science makes more and more claims on the unknowable, it is seen as an assault on God's realm again, when exactly the opposite is true; as we learn more, the questions explode exponentially. It just seems like an assault on God because it gets harder and harder to wrap our minds around the concepts; every answer seems to bring forth more questions. OK, so evolution is true; but then, on a molecular level, isn't it ASTOUNDING, the power of chemistry and physics and time, that has given forth this small microcosm of life? To try to use God's power to explain it is to belittle that power, not exhault it.

I say, explain the world as you will, because it is what it is. But the power of it, its essence will always remain distant. Interestingly enough, the scripture addresses this very issue, in the book of Job. By my reading, the key message is that the power of God will ALWAYS be unknown. Learn what you will, God shall always recede into the distance (sort of like the universe expanding, huh?) Job questions the meaning of his fate, and why it seems that God strikes at an innocent man. God's reply is that the world doesn't work that way...

Here the writer speaks figuratively of course, unless we agree that the earth and the world were actually built in the manner of a house:

1: Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind:
2: "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
3: Gird up your loins like a man, I will question you, and you shall declare to me.
4: "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.
5: Who determined its measurements -- surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?
6: On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone,
7: when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8: "Or who shut in the sea with doors, when it burst forth from the womb;
9: when I made clouds its garment, and thick darkness its swaddling band,
10: and prescribed bounds for it, and set bars and doors,
11: and said, `Thus far shall you come, and no farther, and here shall your proud waves be stayed'?
12: "Have you commanded the morning since your days began, and caused the dawn to know its place,
13: that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth, and the wicked be shaken out of it?
14: It is changed like clay under the seal, and it is dyed like a garment.
15: From the wicked their light is withheld, and their uplifted arm is broken.
16: "Have you entered into the springs of the sea, or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17: Have the gates of death been revealed to you, or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?
18: Have you comprehended the expanse of the earth? Declare, if you know all this.
19: "Where is the way to the dwelling of light, and where is the place of darkness,
20: that you may take it to its territory and that you may discern the paths to its home?
21: You know, for you were born then, and the number of your days is great!

And of course God continues for 5 more chapters, but you get the point. And I think this is one of the cornerstone passages in the scriptures, one from which we can draw greater conclusions about the role of science and knowledge with respect to religion and Christianity (and of course Judaism, because Job is pure OT). "Learn what you learn, and regardless of its truth you will never know the end."


Tom

3 to be 4
08-15-2006, 06:50 PM
Scripture teaches that one should destroy one's enemies, and take an eye for an eye: "Thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies, that I might destroy them. (Samuel 22:40-42)...Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot." (Deuteronomy 19:20-22 )



In his second letter to Timothy, Paul confirms that Scripture is the infallible word of God: ?All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.? (2 Timothy 3:16-17)





However, Matthew apparently thought that Jesus contradicted Scripture's teaching of destruction of one's enemies, and taking an eye an eye, a life for a life:



Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:38-39)...Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you. (Matthew 5:38-44)





Was Matthew mistaken about what Jesus said, or was Paul wrong about Scripture being the word of God? Either way, one of these writers must have been wrong. If not, why not?


That may be the most awesome question ive seen? Ive had the same thoughts about the idea of taking literaly every single word in the Bible as the infallible word of God and as Tony pointed out, we are dealing with humans and their interpretation. Im not qualified to give too much scholarly point by point answers to a questions like that, although you can bet im going to forward that to people i know so that i can get a better answer than i will give.
For me, when it doubt, i go with what Jesus said himself, and the New Testament over the Old, for the simple reason that chronologically it makes more sense to me. There was a new covenant as Jesus death and resurrection made some things in the Old Testament "old news". Sacrifice of animals for instance. No longer would that sacrifice be needed, no longer need for "atonement", as Christ died for our sin, past, present, and future, and wiped the slate clean. If a sacrifice was still needed, why did Christ die?
Also, the Sabbath. Sacred before, Jesus put it into perspective, Sabbath is to serve Man, Man doesnt serve the sabbath. in other words, dont tell God he cant perform a miracle because its Saturday. The Law was needed to establish Sin. Religious types turned the Law into God. Jesus came, took sin away. For those who accept. The Law is still needed to establish sin for those who dont accept. But it all changed when He died on that cross and 3 days later was resurrected. Christians are still expected to do the right thing, not because of knowledge of the law, but because of knowing right from wrong because of what Christ has done in their heart. We dont become better, we let God become bigger in our hearts.
this is incomplete and probably very confusing because im not Mr Bible debater. But your question challenges me to dig deeper and find the answers. I do know a couple of books that answer these questions better than I ever could. Written by 2 non-believers who sought out to journalistically prove that Jesus was not the Son of God. But they couldnt, and became Christians. Lee Stroebels "The Case For Christ" and anything written by Josh McDowell.

A lot of Old Testament stuff seems strange today. I myself, wrestle with this tithing idea and i know im in the minority but i dont see it proven in the Bible that 10% of your gross income must go to your church. Giving yes, and I give tons, wherever its placed on my heart. But to a church? so im open. i really am.
but i dont get diverted from the Big picture. From the Gospels. I look at the Old Testament for background and prophesy, the Gospels for Jesus words, Pauls letters for instruction, Revelation for further prophesy. Stick with the Psalms, Isaiah,Matthew, John, 1st Corinthians, and you'll be alright.

And dont give up if someone like me cant give you every answer. Im not the authority. But i know where to look for Him.

tony hipchest
08-15-2006, 06:54 PM
Here is some unsolicited reccomended reading for those of you interested in provactive challenges to contemporary Christianity.

Both are written by a one time Anglican Bishop named John Shelby Spong.

The first is called Why Christianity Must Change or Die. His thesis is that mankind has developed greatly in its ablility to deal with abstract thought over the last few thousand years. But he feels that Christianity relies too much on symbolic mythology that is no longer neccessary to communicate to the masses and as a result is killing itself off.http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060675365/002-8996588-3151221?v=glance&n=283155

The second book is called A New Christianity for a New world. This book outlines hispersonal vision of how the Christianity could morph into a more relevant religion.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060670630/ref=pd_sim_b_2/002-8996588-3151221?ie=UTF8

A lot of his thoughts would be considered blasphemous by fundamentalists. So if you are a strict interprontationist of the Bible, the books are not worth your time.

Personally, whenever I have a belief about something I think is important, I like to invite challenges to my premise to see if my belief will stand up to the challenges. If my argument stands the test then I feel stronger in my convicitions. If it doesn't stand up, I then develop a new perspective. I found these books to be chock full of challenges to my Christian beliefs. If nothing else, they will lead to some good theological discussions if you can get someone else to read it along with you.

...says the dude with 666 rep points. :cool:

floodcitygirl
08-15-2006, 06:59 PM
...says the dude with 666 rep points. :cool:Ok Tony...you did that on purpose...right???? :cya:

Hawk Believer
08-15-2006, 07:02 PM
...says the dude with 666 rep points. :cool: Good point.:sofunny: I didn't realize I was bearing the mark of the beast for the moment.

MasterOfPuppets
08-15-2006, 07:03 PM
That may be the most awesome question ive seen? Ive had the same thoughts about the idea of taking literaly every single word in the Bible as the infallible word of God and as Tony pointed out, we are dealing with humans and their interpretation. Im not qualified to give too much scholarly point by point answers to a questions like that, although you can bet im going to forward that to people i know so that i can get a better answer than i will give.
For me, when it doubt, i go with what Jesus said himself, and the New Testament over the Old, for the simple reason that chronologically it makes more sense to me. There was a new covenant as Jesus death and resurrection made some things in the Old Testament "old news". Sacrifice of animals for instance. No longer would that sacrifice be needed, no longer need for "atonement", as Christ died for our sin, past, present, and future, and wiped the slate clean. If a sacrifice was still needed, why did Christ die?
Also, the Sabbath. Sacred before, Jesus put it into perspective, Sabbath is to serve Man, Man doesnt serve the sabbath. in other words, dont tell God he cant perform a miracle because its Saturday. The Law was needed to establish Sin. Religious types turned the Law into God. Jesus came, took sin away. For those who accept. The Law is still needed to establish sin for those who dont accept. But it all changed when He died on that cross and 3 days later was resurrected. Christians are still expected to do the right thing, not because of knowledge of the law, but because of knowing right from wrong because of what Christ has done in their heart. We dont become better, we let God become bigger in our hearts.
this is incomplete and probably very confusing because im not Mr Bible debater. But your question challenges me to dig deeper and find the answers. I do know a couple of books that answer these questions better than I ever could. Written by 2 non-believers who sought out to journalistically prove that Jesus was not the Son of God. But they couldnt, and became Christians. Lee Stroebels "The Case For Christ" and anything written by Josh McDowell.

A lot of Old Testament stuff seems strange today. I myself, wrestle with this tithing idea and i know im in the minority but i dont see it proven in the Bible that 10% of your gross income must go to your church. Giving yes, and I give tons, wherever its placed on my heart. But to a church? so im open. i really am.
but i dont get diverted from the Big picture. From the Gospels. I look at the Old Testament for background and prophesy, the Gospels for Jesus words, Pauls letters for instruction, Revelation for further prophesy. Stick with the Psalms, Isaiah,Matthew, John, 1st Corinthians, and you'll be alright.

And dont give up if someone like me cant give you every answer. Im not the authority. But i know where to look for Him.
this just falls in line with the discussion of different interpretations. you may ask 10 different authorities on the bible ,and get 10 different answers. i just wanted to see if you guys had any thoughts on it. but does anyone fined it ironic how the different interpretations by the muslims koran is very similiar? one cleric teaches peace ,love and tolerance ,while the other teaches death to non believers...

Hawk Believer
08-15-2006, 07:09 PM
Ok Tony...you did that on purpose...right???? :cya:

Nope, Tony was not the last person to give me rep. Its just a crazy coincidence. Or is it? Lets hope so.

Anyway, I did read recently that scholars are now saying that 666 has been unfairly impunged as Satan's favorite number. The correct number is now supposed to be 616.
Here is a link:
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/11134

MasterOfPuppets
08-15-2006, 07:13 PM
Nope, Tony was not the last person to give me rep. Its just a crazy coincidence. Or is it? Lets hope so.

Anyway, I did read recently that scholars are now saying that 666 has been unfairly impunged as Satan's favorite number. The correct number is now supposed to be 616.
Here is a link:
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/11134
:tt03: lets bust him down to 616...

tony hipchest
08-15-2006, 07:18 PM
:tt03: lets bust him down to 616...i think i can do that is someone chips in a -15 :bouncy:

Hawk Believer
08-15-2006, 07:25 PM
Scripture teaches that one should destroy one's enemies, and take an eye for an eye: "Thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies, that I might destroy them. (Samuel 22:40-42)...Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot." (Deuteronomy 19:20-22 )



In his second letter to Timothy, Paul confirms that Scripture is the infallible word of God: “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17)





However, Matthew apparently thought that Jesus contradicted Scripture's teaching of destruction of one's enemies, and taking an eye an eye, a life for a life:



Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:38-39)...Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you. (Matthew 5:38-44)





Was Matthew mistaken about what Jesus said, or was Paul wrong about Scripture being the word of God? Either way, one of these writers must have been wrong. If not, why not?
For me, this conflict reinforces why I can't believe that the Bible is a verbatim text of God's word. I think most of it is inspired by God. But is has been written, edited, and translated by fallible people who even at their best are destined to inject personal bias and screw things up. In a way that presents me with a great burden of trying to do my best to sort out what God is trying to tell me through the Bible and what I should filter as man's interference of that message. But I'd rather approach it that way instead trying to read each part as literal truth when I personally see contradicitions in the text.

Reconciling the seemingly angry, punative God of the Old Testament with the loving, nurturing God if the New Testament is something that I don't know I will ever fully understand in this life. But I have faith that it will all get cleared up for me some day.

By the way, kudos to 3tobe4 and Mosca for setting a tone in this thread so that religion (Christianity at that!) is being discussed openly by people with different beliefs - and no one is trying to belittle one another or call them names. Its a shamefully rare occurence in our society as far as I can tell.

MasterOfPuppets
08-15-2006, 07:27 PM
i think i can do that is someone chips in a -15 :bouncy:
i got 3-5's...:sofunny:

Hawk Believer
08-15-2006, 07:28 PM
i think i can do that is someone chips in a -15 :bouncy:
Ha! Master of Puppets has saved me from being satan's minion. 666, I rebuke thee.

Mosca
08-15-2006, 07:29 PM
By the way, kudos to 3tobe4 and Mosca for setting a tone in this thread so that religion (Christianity at that!) is being discussed openly by people with different beliefs - and no one is trying to belittle one another or call them names. Its a shamefully rare occurence in our society as far as I can tell.

I'm man enough to admit that it could have gone that way, but 3tobe4 won the day with his level headed replies. I was all set to challenge him for over-proselytizing, and he kept it on the high ground. Reps to him for that.


Tom

3 to be 4
08-15-2006, 07:32 PM
this just falls in line with the discussion of different interpretations. you may ask 10 different authorities on the bible ,and get 10 different answers. i just wanted to see if you guys had any thoughts on it. but does anyone fined it ironic how the different interpretations by the muslims koran is very similiar? one cleric teaches peace ,love and tolerance ,while the other teaches death to non believers...


a clearer thought came to me regarding your question earlier. What I believe Paul , and others who use that term "infallible" are saying, is that the Bible, Old and New T, are the inspired, infallible, words of God.
But we dealing with a new covenant when Jesus came. What was said in the Old Testament was true, and was infallible, and was the Law. But those just live by the Old Testament are missing a ton of new information. More was revealed as Man needed to hear more. Law was established to define sin. Then Jesus came to take sin away.
There is no contradiction to what Matthew and Paul had to say. What God had to say back in the day was from God, so Paul is right. But Jesus came to provide salvation and release from the Law for those who believed. So its an update so to speak, and Matthew is right. does that make any sense?
Thats why i get so annoyed by preachers, especially on TV, go on and on and on about Sin, and forget to mention its all washed away once we accept Christ. Thats why so many Christians are beaten down by guilt, thinking they arent good enough. Of course they are not. None of us will be good enough! Sin established that. We are all sinners, as humans we cant NOT be sinners. But the great news is that Jesus washes it all away. Otherwise, why did He die??

anyway. I LOVE this thread! Its good, as you say, to be open to challenge. thats how we seek and grow. And as A christian it makes my Faith stronger as im forced to think about these questions and find the answers

floodcitygirl
08-15-2006, 07:32 PM
Nope, Tony was not the last person to give me rep. Its just a crazy coincidence. Or is it? Lets hope so.

Anyway, I did read recently that scholars are now saying that 666 has been unfairly impunged as Satan's favorite number. The correct number is now supposed to be 616.
Here is a link:
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/11134Thanks anyway...but I have enough trouble trying to keep up with my reading about the "right team"! (lol)

tony hipchest
08-15-2006, 07:36 PM
Ha! Master of Puppets has saved me from being satan's minion. 666, I rebuke thee.that was just a part of our masterplan to knock you down to 616 :evil:

MasterOfPuppets
08-15-2006, 07:38 PM
a clearer thought came to me regarding your question earlier. What I believe Paul , and others who use that term "infallible" are saying, is that the Bible, Old and New T, are the inspired, infallible, words of God.
But we dealing with a new covenant when Jesus came. What was said in the Old Testament was true, and was infallible, and was the Law. But those just live by the Old Testament are missing a ton of new information. More was revealed as Man needed to hear more. Law was established to define sin. Then Jesus came to take sin away.
There is no contradiction to what Matthew and Paul had to say. What God had to say back in the day was from God, so Paul is right. But Jesus came to provide salvation and release from the Law for those who believed. So its an update so to speak, and Matthew is right. does that make any sense?
Thats why i get so annoyed by preachers, especially on TV, go on and on and on about Sin, and forget to mention its all washed away once we accept Christ. Thats why so many Christians are beaten down by guilt, thinking they arent good enough. Of course they are not. None of us will be good enough! Sin established that. We are all sinners, as humans we cant NOT be sinners. But the great news is that Jesus washes it all away. Otherwise, why did He die??

anyway. I LOVE this thread! Its good, as you say, to be open to challenge. thats how we seek and grow. And as A christian it makes my Faith stronger as im forced to think about these questions and find the answers
actually that's an excellent answer and makes perfect sence...you truley
are inspired by the holy spirit...thanks

3 to be 4
08-15-2006, 08:01 PM
actually that's an excellent answer and makes perfect sence...you truley
are inspired by the holy spirit...thanks

that means a lot to me that you say that, but as you say, all the Glory goes to the Holy Spirit if I was able to make a sensible answer to that terrific question.

Its like, in the beginning, in Genesis, there was no sin, and Adam and Eve were with God. then through sin, they and Man were seperated from God. While its true what was said at the beginning, its also true that later something changed. 2 different answers, both true.

I guess thats why there are Christians of different denominations, because things gets interpreted differently. But im non-denominational, because Paul taught that we are to be one body of Christ, each of us with different talents and gifts, but we are not to be divided.
The bottom line is if you believe Christ died for your sins, was the son of God, was raised from the dead, and opened the gates of Heaven to all that who believed, thats it, baby, you are in the body of Christ.
this sniping between Baptist and Catholic and Episcopalian and Presbytyrian etc etc is extremly unbiblical.
When the thief looked at Jesus and said dont forget me, Jesus didnt ask him to answer 20 questions, commit to a bible study group, go on 10 missions, and hand over his W-2's. He said "You will be in paradise with me today". This is consistant with all his encounters with people. His burden is easy. His yoke is light. All he wants is a personal relationship with us. The moment the thief believed Jesus was Lord, he had Salvation.
My moment was not when i said the prayer, or came forward in a church, or got Baptised.
It was after I told him in the Magnolia Mall in Florence,SC that I was ready to believe if he just showed me a sign. I went into the mens room and there was a tract on the sink that said "Are you Ready"? I started laughing, felt a peace and love rush over me and i said
"its you" and felt a wordless response that felt like God saying "There you are"
that was it. the rest is all learning and growing.

MasterOfPuppets
08-15-2006, 08:15 PM
that means a lot to me that you say that, but as you say, all the Glory goes to the Holy Spirit if I was able to make a sensible answer to that terrific question.

Its like, in the beginning, in Genesis, there was no sin, and Adam and Eve were with God. then through sin, they and Man were seperated from God. While its true what was said at the beginning, its also true that later something changed. 2 different answers, both true.

I guess thats why there are Christians of different denominations, because things gets interpreted differently. But im non-denominational, because Paul taught that we are to be one body of Christ, each of us with different talents and gifts, but we are not to be divided.
The bottom line is if you believe Christ died for your sins, was the son of God, was raised from the dead, and opened the gates of Heaven to all that who believed, thats it, baby, you are in the body of Christ.
this sniping between Baptist and Catholic and Episcopalian and Presbytyrian etc etc is extremly unbiblical.
When the thief looked at Jesus and said dont forget me, Jesus didnt ask him to answer 20 questions, commit to a bible study group, go on 10 missions, and hand over his W-2's. He said "You will be in paradise with me today". This is consistant with all his encounters with people. His burden is easy. His yoke is light. All he wants is a personal relationship with us. The moment the thief believed Jesus was Lord, he had Salvation.
My moment was not when i said the prayer, or came forward in a church, or got Baptised.
It was after I told him in the Magnolia Mall in Florence,SC that I was ready to believe if he just showed me a sign. I went into the mens room and there was a tract on the sink that said "Are you Ready"? I started laughing, felt a peace and love rush over me and i said
"its you" and felt a wordless response that felt like God saying "There you are"
that was it. the rest is all learning and growing.
well its true that all the glory and praise is to the lord,it was you who made the decision to except jesus into your heart. remember,he gives us all the choice.