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Stillers2012
12-30-2012, 02:23 PM
What is wrong with you people! This kid is the best QB we've had since Bradshaw and you even b*tched and moaned about him even though he helped to win 4 Super Bowls. How 'bout some complaining about Wallace not being able to catch suddenly. Was never anything better than the "One Trick Pony" tag that Tomlin gave him. How about all of the injuries this team has endured. How about Haley's horrible play calling. How about our "35 yard a pop" punter. All you "fans" will be right back on the bandwagon when Ben gets us back to the play-offs. I'm p*ssed about this season too. But Ben is one of the last guys who should be getting the blame for this mess. Until he got hurt he was an MVP candidate. He's our guy. He got us two new trophies. Cut him some slack.

MACH1
12-30-2012, 02:26 PM
All these ditch Ben threads

So you feel the need to start another one? :doh:

Lady Steel
12-30-2012, 02:27 PM
Welcome to Steelers Fever, Stillers! :tt:

Read through this forum. All the things you are wondering why some Steelers fans aren't complaining about are here because they have been. :laughing:

LayingTheWoodley56
12-30-2012, 03:02 PM
Anyone who possibly thinks that we're better off without Ben should be required to turn in their terrible towel immediately. It drives me nuts reading some of the stuff on this board.

lipps83
12-30-2012, 03:02 PM
This kid is the best QB we've had since Bradshaw and you even b*tched and moaned about him even though he helped to win 4 Super Bowls.

That's not good enough. Some fans won't be happy until we draft the first player in history that cannot NOT throw a TD pass. They want the player that even if he tries to intentionally throw an interception because he wants to not throw a touchdown for once in his life, it still somehow becomes a touchdown for his team.

Stillers2012
12-30-2012, 03:12 PM
So you feel the need to start another one? :doh:

My point was a non Ben bashing thread instead of a thread against Ben. Apparently, that was beyond your understanding.:doh:

lloydwoodson
12-30-2012, 03:19 PM
Ben deserves the credit when the Steelers win and the blame when they lose.

Period.

Ben is not elite.

If Ben is the reason the Steelers won superbowls then he is the reason the Steelers have failed to win superbowls.

You can not have it both ways.

Or has the Steelers top 5 defense every year been holding Ben's offense back?

PhantomJB93
12-30-2012, 03:22 PM
Anyone who possibly thinks that we're better off without Ben should be required to turn in their terrible towel immediately. It drives me nuts reading some of the stuff on this board.

This is worse than it was in the 2010 offseason. At least then there was a legitimate reason for some to want him off the team. Now it's just ridiculous.

BLACK_AND_YELLOW
12-30-2012, 03:30 PM
Ben deserves the credit when the Steelers win and the blame when they lose.

Period.

Ben is not elite.

If Ben is the reason the Steelers won superbowls then he is the reason the Steelers have failed to win superbowls.

You can not have it both ways.

Or has the Steelers top 5 defense every year been holding Ben's offense back?

Defense always wins championships, Ben does his part on offense & yes he is a Elite QB cause if everyone can call Eli "ELITE" then Ben has to be "ELITE" since he is a better then Eli

Edman
12-30-2012, 03:32 PM
If posters want to give Ben credit for the teams winning, then they better be ready to hold him to a little more responsibility for when they lose. When the Steelers win, it's because of Ben. When the Steelers lose, it's someone else's fault.

You can't have it that way. Ben deserves a lion's share of the blame for 2012. We'll see what he does for 2013 in beyond.

This season went down the crapper because Ben wanted to go sandlot, just like last year. His irresponsibility is the reason why the team is packing up their lockers and golf bags.

lloydwoodson
12-30-2012, 03:36 PM
Trying to determine which current qb is 5th best is like trying to determine which 90s running back is the best after Barry Sanders and Emmitt Smith. Or which wr is best after Jerry Rice.

Rodgers, Brees, Brady and P Manning are elite.

No one else is elite.

This is why the offenses of those qbs always approach scoring 30 ppg year after year.

Edman
12-30-2012, 03:43 PM
Trying to determine which current qb is 5th best is like trying to determine which 90s running back is the best after Barry Sanders and Emmitt Smith. Or which wr is best after Jerry Rice.

Rodgers, Brees, Brady and P Manning are elite.

No one else is elite.

This is why the offenses of those qbs always approach scoring 30 ppg year after year.

Those QB's don't spit in the face of their systems just because they want to do things "their" way either.

Either Ben gets on board with Haley, or we're going to see more seasons like this. I'm not harping on the blame on Haley for this season, he had the offense going until people (Mike Wallace especially) kept crying for more Arians Ball. We got more Arians Ball alright, and Ben got his shoulder fried.

Speaking of which, adios to Wallace(I hope), I wouldn't be sorry to see Mendenhall leave either. Being talented doesn't matter if the head isn't there.

Stillers2012
12-30-2012, 03:52 PM
I never said that Ben is the ONLY reason that we won the Superbowls. That's just not true. But even in SB40 he had a horrible passer rating but made the plays when needed. My whole point is that Ben has done a helluva lot more good than bad for this team. He may be a gunslinger out there but he generally gets the job done when needed and when a couple games go bad for him vevryone wants to send him packing. Again, cut the guy some slack. If he's having a down period show a little support. Don't tear him down.

GoFor7
12-30-2012, 03:54 PM
Those QB's don't spit in the face of their systems just because they want to do things "their" way either.

That's because those QBs don't get playbooks rammed down their throats. Their organizations actually play to their strengths instead of just waiting for 3rd and long or the last two minutes of a game.

Either Ben gets on board with Haley, or we're going to see more seasons like this. I'm not harping on the blame on Haley for this season, he had the offense going until people (Mike Wallace especially) kept crying for more Arians Ball. We got more Arians Ball alright, and Ben got his shoulder fried.

How about Artie gets with the times and realizes Marty ball isn't working. I'd rather they let him win the game early so the last 2 minutes are meaningless.

I didn't realize all the failed RUTMs were Ben's fault? How about that nice end-around that resulted in Brown getting dropped right outside his own endzone? Was that Ben's fault too?

The Steelers pulling that kind of shit on offense is the reason Ben isn't going to be able to bail them out all the time.

lloydwoodson
12-30-2012, 03:56 PM
P Manning starts the year with a new team coming off 4 neck surgeries.

New teammates, new coaches, new everything.

P Manning puts up what would be the best season in Roethlisberger's career. More TDs, more yards and higher rating than Roethlisberger has ever had.

Broncos post the league's second best offense (after the elite Tom Brady's) averaging 29.5 ppg. Meanwhile the Steelers elite Roethlisberger's offense finishes 21st.

Ben is not going anywhere. But it would make it a lot easier for me to deal with Steelers fans if you hopped off Ben's nuts and started holding him accountable for the Steelers' offense.

GoFor7
12-30-2012, 04:02 PM
P Manning starts the year with a new team coming off 4 neck surgeries.

New teammates, new coaches, new everything.

P Manning puts up what would be the best season in Roethlisberger's career. More TDs, more yards and higher rating than Roethlisberger has ever had.

Broncos post the league's second best offense (after the elite Tom Brady's) averaging 29.5 ppg. Meanwhile the Steelers elite Roethlisberger's offense finishes 21st.

Ben is not going anywhere. But it would make it a lot easier for me to deal with Steelers fans if you hopped off Ben's nuts and started holding him accountable for the Steelers' offense.

Ah, I keep saying this, but simple-minded yinzers just love to ignore it.....

Those teams give their QBs the chance to win the game early. The Steelers play Marty ball and hope to God Ben bails them out in the end. When you play that style, the QB won't be able to bail you out all the time? Is that too hard for a peanut-sized brain to get?

Also keep in mind Brees has had four losing seasons since coming into the league, Ben has had none.

lloydwoodson
12-30-2012, 04:07 PM
Ah, I keep saying this, but simple-minded yinzers just love to ignore it.....

Those teams give their QBs the chance to win the game early. The Steelers play Marty ball and hope to God Ben bails them out in the end. When you play that style, the QB won't be able to bail you out all the time? Is that too hard for a peanut-sized brain to get?

Also keep in mind Brees has had four losing seasons since coming into the league, Ben has had none.

Ben throws 35.5 times per game.

P Manning throws 36.9 times per game.

Next excuse that puts the blame on everyone but Ben please.

*Didn't address the second idiotic remark*

How many times has Brees had a top 5 defense?

GoFor7
12-30-2012, 04:14 PM
Ben throws 35.5 times per game.

P Manning throws 36.9 times per game.

Next excuse that puts the blame on everyone but Ben please.

Wow, really? Haven't these discussions been held before on this forum? Those stats are meaningless. Bubble screens and check downs count as throws too.

Those teams use a lot of no huddle and actually put an emphasis on scoring. The Steelers play Marty ball and put the emphasis on time of possession. So Ben technically may throw as much as Manning or Brady, but usually for small gains, or negative yardage as the Steelers stink with bubble screens. The Steelers don't attack, they just play scared and hope nothing goes wrong.

*spells it out for yinzer with peanut-sized brain*
I thought you said guys like Brees, Rodgers and Manning were the best of the best? If Brees was that good then should it matter where his defense ranks? The truth, regardless of numbers, Ben has come through more often than Brees.

lloydwoodson
12-30-2012, 04:23 PM
Wow, really? Haven't these discussions been held before on this forum? Those stats are meaningless. Bubble screens and check downs count as throws too.

Those teams use a lot of no huddle and actually put an emphasis on scoring. The Steelers play Marty ball and put the emphasis on time of possession. So Ben technically may throw as much as Manning or Brady, but usually for small gains, or negative yardage as the Steelers stink with bubble screens. The Steelers don't attack, they just play scared and hope nothing goes wrong.

Umm have you ever watched a Patriots game? Patriots brought the screen pass into vogue. Welker is their leading receiver and he is a true slot back catching nothing but dink and dunk passes very close to the LOS.

No one dinks and dunks more than the Patriots. Their offense revolves around their slot back, tight ends and running back screens. So wtf are you talking about?

Yeah the Steelers tell Ben "Whatever you do don't try to score."

Steelers offense is the same underachieving offense since 2004 and the only constant has been Roethlisberger.

Where were P Manning's "Rosetta Stone" comments? How come P Manning can go into a 100% new environment and have the league's 2nd best offense? Meanwhile Roethlisberger has had the same team for at least the last 3 years and is still 21st in the league? Is it the coaches?

GoFor7
12-30-2012, 04:33 PM
Umm have you ever watched a Patriots game? Patriots brought the screen pass into vogue. Welker is their leading receiver and he is a true slot back catching nothing but dink and dunk passes very close to the LOS.

No one dinks and dunks more than the Patriots. Their offense revolves around their slot back, tight ends and running back screens. So wtf are you talking about?

And the Steelers don't have that kind of personnel. They only have one good TE in Miller.

Yeah the Steelers tell Ben "Whatever you do don't try to score."

You really are proving how dumb you are. When the majority plays call for the WRs to only run 5 to 10 yards beyond the LOS, that means the Steelers are putting more emphasis on time of possession than scoring. Not hard to figure out.

Steelers offense is the same underachieving offense since 2004 and the only constant has been Roethlisberger.

Well, when you handcuff the QB until the last 2 minutes of a game, he won't score many points. Too bad your peanut-sized brain can't understand that.

Where were P Manning's "Rosetta Stone" comments? How come P Manning can go into a 100% new environment and have the league's 2nd best offense? Meanwhile Roethlisberger has had the same team for at least the last 3 years and is still 21st in the league? Is it the coaches?

Ah, the peanut-sized brain shows itself again. Maybe because Peyton Manning didn't get a new playbook rammed down his throat. Maybe because the Broncos built and offense around him rather than some owner that's enamored with outdated football.

I've actually said this stuff many times, but simple-minded yinzers such as yourself either have a hard time reading or chose to ignore it because it doesn't fit your argument.

lloydwoodson
12-30-2012, 04:35 PM
I can't argue with you GoFor7 - you are the biggest homer I have ever seen.

To say that Roethlisberger is better than Brees is a complete joke and strips you of all credibility.

Brees is a 2 time NFL Offensive POY.

Brees has back to back 40 td seasons.

Brees lost today - his offense put up 38 points; his defense allowed 44 points.

Brees had 8 games with more than 30 points. What do you think the Steelers record would be if they had a qb putting up 30 points per game?

Your argument is invalid.

GoFor7
12-30-2012, 04:47 PM
I can't argue with you GoFor7 - you are the biggest homer I have ever seen.

To say that Roethlisberger is better than Brees is a complete joke and strips you of all credibility.

Brees is a 2 time NFL Offensive POY.

Brees has back to back 40 td seasons.

Brees lost today - his offense put up 38 points; his defense allowed 44 points.

Brees had 8 games with more than 30 points. What do you think the Steelers record would be if they had a qb putting up 30 points per game?

Your argument is invalid.

I figured you'd ignore my last post - that's okay.

I figure the Steelers would be better than 8-8 if the offense put up close to 30 per game. The problem is (and I keep explaining, but you're small mind won't comprehend) that the way the Steelers want to play in offense won't result in a lot of points. They want to be a defensive team. Their scared to death that if the offense scores points quickly that they'll get into a shootout.

But continue to ignore it, because then you wouldn't be able to bash Ben as much. In fact, I'll side with you now......


BOOOOOOOOOO! BEN STINKS! BOOOOOOOOO! da stillerz ain't need no stinkin' QB! da stillerz gunna run da ball and play defense and punch 'em in da mouth! don't need nun a dat sissy passin' stuff! BOOOOOOOOOOOOO! da stillerz frum da 90's got it right! ain't need no stinkin' QB! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE!

da rooneys iz always right! Ben gotta hand off better! da runnin' game ain't working cause he ain't hand off good! BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! git kerdell back in here n'at! keep haley! IT AIN'T MATTER WHAT BEN WON, CAUSE HALEY IS RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!! ah am sick of all dese sissy passin' teams! ah don't want da stillers to score like dat! ah want 10-7 games frum now on! it ain't classy ta score too many points - in fact ah was screaming cause da stillers beat da brownies by more than 3 points! BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Ricco Suavez
12-30-2012, 04:49 PM
I will say this trying to compare Ben to Peyton or Brady is not a fair comparison. Why you may ask? Simple, those two are not only the best right now they are in all likely hood two of the very best that ever played. Brady has more SBs than Peyton but had more of a defense during those SB winning years. To be fair Peytons only SB came the year Bob Sanders played and the defense played very well during their playoff run. Brees on the other hand is a stat machine, and while his defense did not rank high their lone SB they were more than opportunistic in creating turnovers, they lived on the defensive turnover that year.

Ben does not have to be Peyton or Brady (no one else is close right now), I hope he is not like Brees (were all the cap is spent on the offensive side of the ball thus weakening the defense) I want Ben to be allowed more freedom to play. After watching todays play calling I do not see how anyone can agree with Haleys current system. First two series for example. 1st play Pass for 8 yds, 2nd dive for 1, 3rd another dive for 0, punt. Second series run for 8, 2nd run for 1, and 3rd Ben nearly throws an INT after the edge rusher was nearly in his lap before he finished his dropback. I will even throw in the 3rd series, 1st play a 43 yd pass that is called back for holding, pass for 8, 2nd down a WTF play that lost 13 on an end around, 3rd down 12 yards and another punt. So on the first three series Ben is allowed to pass 3 times, 4 if you count the one called back and ran for 6 times and no first downs.

lloydwoodson
12-30-2012, 04:52 PM
I'm on a roll so I'm just going to keep posting.

If I am the last person to post on any thread then reason has prevailed.

I am really loving the balanced NE offense I am watching. Brady and Manning's offenses have both put up 21 first half points for their teams. Lots of great execution on short passes and runs. Their hard work and attention to detail really shows. Clearly Manning and Brady have bought into their systems.

I wonder why Brady hasn't complained though? Clearly he shows the ability to be successful from the shotgun. I think he should complain to the media that there is not enough hurry-up.

There is no way that a qb as accomplished as Brady should be relegated to throwing screens to Woodhead, and garbage passes over the middle to Welker.

It blows my mind that he isn't speaking out to sports journalists week in and week out.

Ricco Suavez
12-30-2012, 04:56 PM
For those wanting Ben to be a Peyton , Brady, Brees, or a Rodgers, not going to happen. While I believe Ben is good for the Steelers, QBs like those do not come along every draft. I am sorry if that means he sucks in some of your estimation. But Bens career numbers are as good as nearly any so-called elite QB in his first 9 years. I have already pulled up his numbers against Elway. I am sure that with only a few exceptions his numbers will be in line with nearly any QB. I know a lot of you are bitter, but just because you QB cannot pull out every close win does not make him a bad QB. I read that Ben gets too much credit, maybe so, but I have never thought he won games on his own, just that I felt he gave us the best chance to win. He deserves a fair share of the blame for this year, but I would like to remind everyone that he did have a lot to do with 2 SBs, whether it was the game its self, the playoff games preceding, or the season in general.

Ricco Suavez
12-30-2012, 04:58 PM
Brady likely doent complain because his RB and LIne can actually get 2 yds when needed. And the fact no one is allowed to hit him hard.

Edman
12-30-2012, 04:59 PM
Manning goes to Denver his first year and has the Broncos staring at the #1 Seed in the playoffs.

Tom Brady literally has no Offensive Coordinator. He's back in the postseason.

Drew Brees has the Saints Offense balling without their Head coach.

Aaron Rodgers has the Packers back in the playoffs.

"Elite" Ben Roethlisberger has a top-line Defense and he can't do better than an 8-8 season. How Elite is this guy honestly? He's had top line defenses to back him up his entire career. If the Steelers Defense can step up their game after struggling, how come our QB can't do likewise for the Offense? Rather the Offense DID improve, but Ben just couldn't say yes to a good thing and threw the season away.

This is the second season in a row he's thrown away by being a sandlot bonehead. Ben is good for the Steelers, but he's not Elite. Not until he shows a real determination to getting this team back to prominence after this disaster. He wants to be the man? Stop having seasons like this.

fansince'76
12-30-2012, 05:03 PM
Manning goes to Denver his first year and has the Broncos staring at the #1 Seed in the playoffs.

Tom Brady literally has no Offensive Coordinator. He's back in the postseason.

Drew Brees has the Saints Offense balling without their Head coach. The problem is the Defense sucks. How good would the Saints be if they had the Steelers Defense?

Aaron Rodgers has the Packers back in the playoffs.

"Elite" Ben Roethlisberger has a top-line Defense and he can't do better than an 8-8 season. How Elite is this guy honestly? He's had top line defenses to back him up his entire career. If the Steelers Defense can step up their game after struggling, how come our QB can't do likewise for the Offense? Rather the Offense DID improve, but Ben just couldn't say yes to a good thing and threw the season away.

This is the second season in a row he's thrown away trying to be bigger than the team.

A "top line" defense that can't generate a turnover to save its life and has given up one critical 3rd down conversion after another for at least the last two seasons. How many turnovers, and in turn short fields has the Steelers defense given the offense the last two years? Not as many as all the "elite" QBs have gotten, that I can guarantee. Throw in shitty STs and you get an average starting position around your own ten yard line series after series, week after week. Throw in an acute and contagious case of fumblitis to boot and you get a season like this one.

GoFor7
12-30-2012, 05:05 PM
I can feel I'm on a roll. In fact, after this post I declare victory. Sorry dumb yinzers!



I am really loving the balanced NE offense I am watching. Brady and Manning's offenses have both put up 21 first half points for their teams. Lots of great execution on short passes and runs. Their hard work and attention to detail really shows. Clearly Manning and Brady have bought into their systems.

I wonder why Brady hasn't complained though? Clearly he shows the ability to be successful from the shotgun. I think he should complain to the media that there is not enough hurry-up.

Because those QBs don't get play books rammed down their throats. Their owners aren't enamored with outdated football. They play to the strengths of their QBs. They emphasize scoring, while the Steelers just emphasize possession until the last two minutes. Pretty easy to buy into a system when it's built to your strength and not want a small-minded owner wants.

There is no way that a qb as accomplished as Brady should be relegated to throwing screens to Woodhead, and garbage passes over the middle to Welker.

It blows my mind that he isn't speaking out to sports journalists week in and week out.

They actually aren't predictable, and they take shots down field more often than the Steelers.

Buddy, we get it. You're dumb. It's obvious my reasoning has prevailed and you're just in it to bash Ben. I understand you want to go back to 90's losing football because that's the style yinzers like you want - but it simply doesn't work.

In fact, I'll go a step further and say Brady and Manning would do worse in this offense than Ben ever would. The Steelers don't use no-huddle often because they are too worried about time of possession, and after failed RUTM and bubble screens on first and second downs, the QB would have to be mobile to bail the team out on 3rd and long most of the time. If Brady or Manning is your QB in that offense, start making funeral preparations.

I've already declared victory, but I'll keep posting anyways since reason always prevails!

steelerchad
12-30-2012, 05:09 PM
Ben is likely the 5th or 6th best QB in the league. He's not P. Manning, Brady, Rodgers, or Brees. But he's in the next tier. I'd put him 5th and Eli 6th. Eli had a bad year. Ben had a good year with a bad end of season.
Rivers used to be 7, but not any longer.
The next tier is Romo, Ryan, and with the 3 rookies all looking good maybe they will take over. But until they do it for 3 or 4 years in a row, they can wait their turn to get in the top 5. Cam Newton looked great last year, not so much this year. Ben has been a top 5 QB for most of his 9 seasons.

Lastly, he doesn't get a pass this year for us missing the playoffs. He sucked at the end of season and cost us a game or 2 that he used to find a way to win. He'll be back strong next year, I'm sure.

Edman
12-30-2012, 05:09 PM
P Manning starts the year with a new team coming off 4 neck surgeries.

New teammates, new coaches, new everything.

P Manning puts up what would be the best season in Roethlisberger's career. More TDs, more yards and higher rating than Roethlisberger has ever had.

Broncos post the league's second best offense (after the elite Tom Brady's) averaging 29.5 ppg. Meanwhile the Steelers elite Roethlisberger's offense finishes 21st.

Ben is not going anywhere. But it would make it a lot easier for me to deal with Steelers fans if you hopped off Ben's nuts and started holding him accountable for the Steelers' offense.

You're making too much sense, dude. Please Stop. You'll break the homer dreamworld that Ben is in the Elite Class and the best QB in the NFL. Ben is blameless in all this. It's everyone else's fault. Haley, the Defense, the Special Teams. Everyone but Ben is at fault.

GoFor7
12-30-2012, 05:13 PM
You're making too much sense, dude. Please Stop. You'll break the homer dreamworld that Ben is in the Elite Class and the best QB in the NFL.

Actually, dumb yinzers like you two have been retorted over and over again. You either can't read, or just ignore facts because then you wouldn't be able to bash Ben as much as you do.

It's okay though, because most of you are just like little children. And little children sometimes have to be told the same thing over and over again because their brain capacity is too small to get it the first time.

MACH1
12-30-2012, 05:15 PM
Actually, dumb yinzers like you two have been retorted over and over again. You either can't read, or just ignore facts because then you wouldn't be able to bash Ben as much as you do.

It's okay though, because most of you are just like little children. And little children sometimes have to be told the same thing over and over again because their brain capacity is too small to get it the first time.

Enough with the personal attacks. Next one you'll be gone!

Edman
12-30-2012, 05:17 PM
A "top line" defense that can't generate a turnover to save its life and has given up one critical 3rd down conversion after another for at least the last two seasons. How many turnovers, and in turn short fields has the Steelers defense given the offense the last two years? Not as many as all the "elite" QBs have gotten, that I can guarantee. Throw in shitty STs and you get an average starting position around your own ten yard line series after series, week after week. Throw in an acute and contagious case of fumblitis to boot and you get a season like this one.

Yeah I know, everyone on the Steelers sucks but Ben.

I guess if the Steelers win in the future, it's all Ben's doing. Am I in the ballpark here?

lardlad
12-30-2012, 05:19 PM
That's because those QBs don't get playbooks rammed down their throats. Their organizations actually play to their strengths instead of just waiting for 3rd and long or the last two minutes of a game.



How about Artie gets with the times and realizes Marty ball isn't working. I'd rather they let him win the game early so the last 2 minutes are meaningless.

I didn't realize all the failed RUTMs were Ben's fault? How about that nice end-around that resulted in Brown getting dropped right outside his own endzone? Was that Ben's fault too?

The Steelers pulling that kind of shit on offense is the reason Ben isn't going to be able to bail them out all the time.


I don't believe for a second Ben gets a play book jammed down his throat. What is so wrong with wanting to keep your franchise QB upright? It was working really well he first 8 games. he wasn't getting hit nearly as much and was killing everyone on thrid down. When hey went down field Ben missed them or they dropped or fumbled. It's not like they didn't try to go down field.

The second half of the season looked more like the type of ball Ben liked to play, not what Haley was brought here to do.

Ben is not a problem, he is a great QB. He made timely mistakes that cost the team games and those mistakes had nothing at all to do with Haley... At all. Ben is not a victim, he has a lot of say in how the offense is run and he is part of the reason they lost a few games as well as wins. But anyone that wants him gone has a personal reason for it not because of the results.

pete74
12-30-2012, 05:20 PM
Personally I don't consider Ben as the best QB. I think Manning, Rodgers, Brady and Breese are all better but Ben is damn good and is our QB. I make negative comments when he has bad games just as I do any player on our team but I have a ton of confidence in Ben and I'm certain he will help get us another ring before his time is up.

SteelersCanada
12-30-2012, 05:21 PM
You're making too much sense, dude. Please Stop. You'll break the homer dreamworld that Ben is in the Elite Class and the best QB in the NFL. Ben is blameless in all this. It's everyone else's fault. Haley, the Defense, the Special Teams. Everyone but Ben is at fault.

So, let's break down why you're wrong.

1) Manning plays in a vertical offense where throwing it for 300+ is the norm. If he doesn't go for over 300, something went wrong.

2) Manning's offensive line is better than the Steelers right now by a considerable margin. Not when our guys are healthy, but they can't stay healthy.

3) Roethlisberger is 10 - 4 in the postseason compared to Manning's 9-10. So, great, he can win regular season games and throw for a ton of yardage, but chokes when the games actually matter. People think he's going to tear shit up in the playoffs but he hasn't really done it in his career. Regular season stats don't mean shit if you can't win big games.

4) No one is saying that Ben isn't at fault, but asking him to be traded might in fact be the dumbest thing on these boards. He's not going anywhere.

5) Ben has more Super Bowl rings than Manning does. Sure, it's a team game, but Ben is better in games that count than Manning is. Take your regular season stats, and I'll take Ben in the Super Bowl where he doesn't choke.

fansince'76
12-30-2012, 05:21 PM
Yeah I know, everyone on the Steelers sucks but Ben.

I guess if the Steelers win in the future, it's all Ben's doing. Am I in the ballpark here?

No, more like since everyone's favorite scapegoat is gone, Ben has assumed the role by proxy.

fer522
12-30-2012, 05:26 PM
So, let's break down why you're wrong.

1) Manning plays in a vertical offense where throwing it for 300+ is the norm. If he doesn't go for over 300, something went wrong.

2) Manning's offensive line is better than the Steelers right now by a considerable margin. Not when our guys are healthy, but they can't stay healthy.

3) Roethlisberger is 10 - 4 in the postseason compared to Manning's 9-10. So, great, he can win regular season games and throw for a ton of yardage, but chokes when the games actually matter. People think he's going to tear shit up in the playoffs but he hasn't really done it in his career. Regular season stats don't mean shit if you can't win big games.

4) No one is saying that Ben isn't at fault, but asking him to be traded might in fact be the dumbest thing on these boards. He's not going anywhere.

5) Ben has more Super Bowl rings than Manning does. Sure, it's a team game, but Ben is better in games that count than Manning is. Take your regular season stats, and I'll take Ben in the Super Bowl where he doesn't choke.


Dude are you for real?!?!? If Manning had DL and his D he'd have at least 3 rings by now:noidea:

plenewken
12-30-2012, 05:28 PM
A "top line" defense that can't generate a turnover to save its life and has given up one critical 3rd down conversion after another for at least the last two seasons. How many turnovers, and in turn short fields has the Steelers defense given the offense the last two years? Not as many as all the "elite" QBs have gotten, that I can guarantee. Throw in shitty STs and you get an average starting position around your own ten yard line series after series, week after week. Throw in an acute and contagious case of fumblitis to boot and you get a season like this one.

Dude, even without turnovers, the Steelers D gave the Steelers' O the 2nd highest TOP in the League. The real question is what did the Offense do with it? The answer is GARBAGE. 3 and outs + FG and or punts, when not INTs or fumbles.

I have rarely been so bored watching the Steelers play. Matter of fact, I didn't even watch the 2nd half today. I've had it after the 1st half.

Is Ben completely responsible for it? No but he certainly carries a big part of it on his shoulders. He's a 8 seasons vet now. He should know better and make better decisions down the stretch.

Like or not but he cost us DIRECLY 3 games this season. That's not what an "elite" QB is supposed to bring for the money he makes.

Look no further why we are 8-8 and not 11-5. The 3 losses are here.

lloydwoodson
12-30-2012, 05:28 PM
No, more like since everyone's favorite scapegoat is gone, Ben has assumed the role by proxy.

Now I want Haley gone.

I want a new offensive coordinator every year.

This way when the offense puts up 20-23 ppg year in and year out people can't rationally blame the coaches - even though I know they still will.

Ask yourself this question: could Brady or Rodgers succeed in Haley's offense?

I think they could.

SteelersCanada
12-30-2012, 05:33 PM
Dude are you for real?!?!? If Manning had DL and his D he'd have at least 3 rings by now:noidea:

So, instead of dealing with facts, you're dealing in hypotheticals? How about we talk about how Manning can't win big games? Or the fact that the quarterback he beat in the Super Bowl was Rex Grossman. But no, let's talk about ridiculous situations in which Manning had the Steelers D.

No, let's talk about the fact that Ben has two rings and Manning has one. Ben has a 71% winning percentage in the playoffs and precious Peyton has a 47% winning percentage. Let's deal in facts, here, not hypothetical situations that make no sense.

fansince'76
12-30-2012, 05:35 PM
Ask yourself this question: could Brady or Rodgers succeed in Haley's offense?

I think they could.

Depends. Will their receivers catch the ball? And when they do catch them, will they actually HOLD ON to them?

Yeah, Ben has played subpar since coming off the injury, but he's far from the only one who deserves blame for this season.

Edman
12-30-2012, 05:38 PM
So, let's break down why you're wrong.

1) Manning plays in a vertical offense where throwing it for 300+ is the norm. If he doesn't go for over 300, something went wrong.

The exact same thing Ben got, and we're left with the same results.

Manning's offensive line is better than the Steelers right now by a considerable margin. Not when our guys are healthy, but they can't stay healthy.

The Steelers fielded bupkus for an O-Line, and yet for the earlier half of the season, they were lights out.

San Diego had no problem kicking our ass with a shoemaker O-Line.

Roethlisberger is 10 - 4 in the postseason compared to Manning's 9-10. So, great, he can win regular season games and throw for a ton of yardage, but chokes when the games actually matter. People think he's going to tear shit up in the playoffs but he hasn't really done it in his career. Regular season stats don't mean shit if you can't win big games.

Playoff statistics may mean something, if the Steelers were in the postseason, but they're not. Manning took a completely new team to the playoffs in his first year back, coming off of an Indy exile and a neck injury.

No one is saying that Ben isn't at fault, but asking him to be traded might in fact be the dumbest thing on these boards. He's not going anywhere.

Look over my posts. Where have I ever said Ben needed to be traded? I don't want Ben to go anywhere, I'm just not hanging on his nuts for his mediocre performance, and pretending it's all okay. I'm holding him mostly accountable for why this season went south. For a guy who supposedly matured into a new guy, I expect better from him. He's not a young buck on a veteran team anymore. He's 30 year old man, and the right now the only veteran presence in that locker room now with Farrior and Ward gone. He needs to start taking more responsibility for his Offense.

From his subtle potshots at Haley (In the Media) and his irresponsibility jeopardizing another season, damn right I'm going to put most of this on him. He has to do better, that's all there is to it.

If Ben comes back in 2013 and lights the league on fire, You better believe I'm going to give him his due props, because he's earned it. Right now, he's getting rightful criticism.

Ben has more Super Bowl rings than Manning does. Sure, it's a team game, but Ben is better in games that count than Manning is. Take your regular season stats, and I'll take Ben in the Super Bowl where he doesn't choke.

Ben had the worst Super Bowl performance of QB in history, wasn't that great against Arizona (The Final Drive really clouded how mediocre he was that day) and was mediocre against Green Bay, where he was outdueled by Aaron Rodgers, playing in his first Super Bowl.

lloydwoodson
12-30-2012, 05:39 PM
So, let's break down why you're wrong.

1) Manning plays in a vertical offense where throwing it for 300+ is the norm. If he doesn't go for over 300, something went wrong.

2) Manning's offensive line is better than the Steelers right now by a considerable margin. Not when our guys are healthy, but they can't stay healthy.

3) Roethlisberger is 10 - 4 in the postseason compared to Manning's 9-10. So, great, he can win regular season games and throw for a ton of yardage, but chokes when the games actually matter. People think he's going to tear shit up in the playoffs but he hasn't really done it in his career. Regular season stats don't mean shit if you can't win big games.

4) No one is saying that Ben isn't at fault, but asking him to be traded might in fact be the dumbest thing on these boards. He's not going anywhere.

5) Ben has more Super Bowl rings than Manning does. Sure, it's a team game, but Ben is better in games that count than Manning is. Take your regular season stats, and I'll take Ben in the Super Bowl where he doesn't choke.

1) Manning's coordinators have asked him to play the style that benefits him same as Roethlisberger. There are qbs capable of consistently throwing for 300 yards and there are those that are not. Period.

2) Manning's line is better so is Brady's.

3) Please don't use team records to prove an individual's value. I would never argue that the Colts are a better team than the Steelers over the last decade. I would argue that the Steelers were a VASTLY better team than the Colts who had more UDFA and late round picks than any other superbowl team ever.

4) Ben isn't going anywhere but I would love it if the fans who worship the ground he walk on did go some place else.

5) Ben doesn't choke in the superbowl? Passer rating of 40 in 40. Outplayed badly in all 3 superbowls by the opposing qb. Go look it up Ill wait. Warner threw for 377 yards and 3 tds - if not for Harrison the Cards win that game. Btw- Whisenhunt looks like a garbage coach without his qb.

QB makes the team not the coaches.

MACH1
12-30-2012, 05:39 PM
Depends. Will their receivers catch the ball? And when they do catch them, will they actually HOLD ON to them?

Yeah, Ben has played subpar since coming off the injury, but he's far from the only one who deserves blame for this season.

Ben was in the running for MVP till he got hurt.

plenewken
12-30-2012, 05:40 PM
So, instead of dealing with facts, you're dealing in hypotheticals? How about we talk about how Manning can't win big games? Or the fact that the quarterback he beat in the Super Bowl was Rex Grossman. But no, let's talk about ridiculous situations in which Manning had the Steelers D.

No, let's talk about the fact that Ben has two rings and Manning has one. Ben has a 71% winning percentage in the playoffs and precious Peyton has a 47% winning percentage. Let's deal in facts, here, not hypothetical situations that make no sense.

Ben got owned by Hasselbeck, didn't shine against Warner and lost fair and square to Rodgers, in the 3 SB he played so far.
Not asking for Ben to be traded but I'm asking for a performance consistent with the $100M he's paid.
Since 2008, Ben is far from being worth what he's making. Sad but true.

fansince'76
12-30-2012, 05:41 PM
Dude, even without turnovers, the Steelers D gave the Steelers' O the 2nd highest TOP in the League.

Yes, I'm sure Roethlisberger's league-leading 3rd down conversion rate before the injury had nothing to do with that TOP.

fansince'76
12-30-2012, 05:44 PM
Ben was in the running for MVP till he got hurt.

Yep, and it's conveniently being forgotten by many.

fansince'76
12-30-2012, 05:46 PM
Ben got owned by Hasselbeck, didn't shine against Warner and lost fair and square to Rodgers, in the 3 SB he played so far.
Not asking for Ben to be traded but I'm asking for a performance consistent with the $100M he's paid.
Since 2008, Ben is far from being worth what he's making. Sad but true.

Eli Manning got a Super Bowl MVP award in 2008 for numbers that were essentially identical to Roethlisberger's numbers against Arizona the following year. Just saying.

plenewken
12-30-2012, 05:56 PM
Eli Manning got a Super Bowl MVP award in 2008 for numbers that were essentially identical to Roethlisberger's numbers against Arizona the following year. Just saying.

Are you saying Ben should have been MVP against Arizona? I don't think so.
He wasn't MVP because people saw a better performance by Holmes. Holmes' TD catch will remain one of the top receptions in the history of the game.
Ben's pass doesn't even qualify in the top 10,000.
And Harrison could have been MVP too, before Ben. His 100yds INT and TD was a killer 14pts swing.

fansince'76
12-30-2012, 05:59 PM
Are you saying Ben should have been MVP against Arizona? I don't think so.
He wasn't MVP because people saw a better performance by Holmes. Holmes' TD catch will remain one of the top receptions in the history of the game.
Ben's pass doesn't even qualify in the top 10,000.
And Harrison could have been MVP too, before Ben. His 100yds INT and TD was a killer 14pts swing.

No, I'm saying if Ben's last name was "Manning" he WOULD have gotten MVP for that game.

fer522
12-30-2012, 06:00 PM
So, instead of dealing with facts, you're dealing in hypotheticals? How about we talk about how Manning can't win big games? Or the fact that the quarterback he beat in the Super Bowl was Rex Grossman. But no, let's talk about ridiculous situations in which Manning had the Steelers D.

No, let's talk about the fact that Ben has two rings and Manning has one. Ben has a 71% winning percentage in the playoffs and precious Peyton has a 47% winning percentage. Let's deal in facts, here, not hypothetical situations that make no sense.

If we use your logic than Trent Dilfer is a better Qb than Dan Marino and as good as Payton,Brees,Rodgers, and Favre :noidea:

Darthslayrr
12-30-2012, 06:09 PM
Special teams cost us dearly this year. 4 TD returns called back for holding, fumbles, not trying to field punts, and constantly starting drives inside the 10 is the reason we are 8-8.

Ricco Suavez
12-30-2012, 06:19 PM
Are you saying Ben should have been MVP against Arizona? I don't think so.
He wasn't MVP because people saw a better performance by Holmes. Holmes' TD catch will remain one of the top receptions in the history of the game.
Ben's pass doesn't even qualify in the top 10,000.
And Harrison could have been MVP too, before Ben. His 100yds INT and TD was a killer 14pts swing.

I think he said that the numbers were similar and they were. As far as Holmes making that great catch, he sure did, but only after he missed a much easier catch the preceding pass. Holmes is on record saying so. Hate all you want, refuse to give Ben any credit, but his numbers compare to the "Greats" for his first 9 years. I am sorry we have had only 3 decent Qbs in the last 40 years and Ben is one of them, sorry that the Rooneys would not pull the trigger and draft Marino.

LayingTheWoodley56
12-30-2012, 06:33 PM
Are you saying Ben should have been MVP against Arizona? I don't think so.
He wasn't MVP because people saw a better performance by Holmes. Holmes' TD catch will remain one of the top receptions in the history of the game.
Ben's pass doesn't even qualify in the top 10,000.
And Harrison could have been MVP too, before Ben. His 100yds INT and TD was a killer 14pts swing.


I have to completely disagree with you on the throw. It was an awesome catch by Santonio, but Ben put it where only he could get it and threw it over a couple of defenders. It was a great throw, definitely, easily in the top 10,000.

lloydwoodson
12-30-2012, 06:57 PM
Special teams cost us dearly this year. 4 TD returns called back for holding, fumbles, not trying to field punts, and constantly starting drives inside the 10 is the reason we are 8-8.

I agree the ST was terrible. This was an area of regression from the previous year in which ST was pretty good.

The defense deserves some blame for the season - especially Harrison and Woodley for the lack of a pass rush.

The problem I have is people placing all the blame on the offense and none of it on Ben. It is Haley's fault. It is Tomlin's fault. It is Wallace's fault. It is the OL fault. It is the fault of the rbs and wrs who can't hang on to the ball. But it is not Ben's fault in the least.

Since the Steelers drafted Ben the highest scoring offense they produced was tied for 9th in 2007 with 24 ppg. It is the only season the Steelers finished in the top 10. It is the only season the Steelers scored more than 23 ppg.

At which point does the only constant in the Steelers offense accept the blame? When does it stop being everyone else's fault?

jb500ex
12-30-2012, 07:06 PM
Defense always wins championships, Ben does his part on offense & yes he is a Elite QB cause if everyone can call Eli "ELITE" then Ben has to be "ELITE" since he is a better then Eli

Eli has put up seasons Ben has never approached. Eli carried the giantsast year they had a horrible oline, the worst running game in the league and a bad defense. Ben has never cArried the team without. Good defense because he doesn't score. Eli has had better seasons no doubt

lloydwoodson
12-30-2012, 07:09 PM
No, I'm saying if Ben's last name was "Manning" he WOULD have gotten MVP for that game.

Now even the league is to blame. Ben would be more successful... if not for that league conspiracy against him. :doh:

zcoop
12-30-2012, 07:31 PM
Now even the league is to blame. Ben would be more successful... if not for that league conspiracy against him. :doh:

Some homers will never take off the rose colored glasses will they :noidea:

Nobody should be exempt from blame when they fuck up. Ben blew that SB and a few other key games with idiotic ints. He's our QB but he is not without fault.

teegre
12-30-2012, 07:55 PM
Enough with the personal attacks. Next one you'll be gone!

Finally!!!

This dude has ruined thread after thread after thread by posting the same banal posts over & over & over... followed by personal attacks... and then followed by complains about others doing the same things (pot calling the kettle black).

I can't even read a thread (ANY thread) without the obligatory "speedbumps" of:

--Art II is a lawyer.
--Steelers fans are Yinzers.
--The Steelers play scared.
--Yinzers like 90s football.
--Throw deep on first down.
--Yinzers are dumb.
--BB isn't allowed to play for the first 58 minutes.
&
--BOOOOOOO!!! You are a Yinzer!!!

Thank you.

Hawaii 5-0
12-30-2012, 07:58 PM
Finally!!!

This dude has ruined thread after thread after thread by posting the same banal posts over & over & over... followed by personal attacks... and then followed by complains about others doing the same things (pot calling the kettle black).

I can't even read a thread (ANY thread) without the obligatory "speedbumps" of:

--Art II is a lawyer.
--Steelers fans are Yinzers.
--The Steelers play scared.
--Yinzers like 90s football.
--Throw deep on first down.
--Yinzers are dumb.
--BB isn't allowed to play for the first 58 minutes.
&
--BOOOOOOO!!! You are a Yinzer!!!

Thank you.

one correction:

Yinzers like 70's football, you would think after reading it 100 times you would have gotten that straight by now. :chuckle:

teegre
12-30-2012, 08:11 PM
Ben was in the running for MVP till he got hurt.

^^This.^^

teegre
12-30-2012, 08:12 PM
one correction:

Yinzers like 70's football, you would think after reading it 100 times you would have gotten that straight by now. :chuckle:

:toofunny:

Nicely played.

fansince'76
12-30-2012, 08:34 PM
Now even the league is to blame. Ben would be more successful... if not for that league conspiracy against him. :doh:

No, more like the league's lips are stuck to the Mannings' collective ballsack. Do you really think Manning had more to do with that win than the Giants' front four? Honestly?

Try reading slower next time.

fansince'76
12-30-2012, 08:36 PM
Some homers will never take off the rose colored glasses will they :noidea:

Nobody should be exempt from blame when they fuck up. Ben blew that SB and a few other key games with idiotic ints. He's our QB but he is not without fault.

Wasn't even talking about Super Bowl XLV. I was comparing Roethlisberger's numbers from SB XLIII to Manning's in XLII. Very similar.

Reading (comprehension) is fundamental.

zcoop
12-30-2012, 08:41 PM
Wasn't even talking about Super Bowl XLV. I was comparing Roethlisberger's numbers from SB XLIII to Manning's in XLII. Very similar.

Reading (comprehension) is fundamental.

Reading is indeed fundamental and I don't have time to mentor Forest Gump. You make statements here, at least own them and stop trying to be an fake azz English Prof. This is Big Boy football we're talking here. Making excuses for Ben doesn't change any of the facts.

fansince'76
12-30-2012, 08:44 PM
Reading is indeed fundamental and I don't have time to mentor Forest Gump. You make statements here, at least own them and stop trying to be an fake azz English Prof. This is Big Boy football we're talking here. Making excuses for Ben doesn't change any of the facts.

Here's my statement:

Eli Manning got a Super Bowl MVP award in 2008 for numbers that were essentially identical to Roethlisberger's numbers against Arizona the following year. Just saying.

No mention of Super Bowl XLV anywhere, unless you're insinuating he somehow "blew" the Super Bowl against Arizona.

And it's "Forrest" Gump (two r's) by the way. May want to spell correctly when casting aspersions on the intellect of others.

The_Joker
12-30-2012, 08:49 PM
--Yinzers like 90s football.


Why is it all Steelers fans have to be Yinzers?

zcoop
12-30-2012, 08:53 PM
Here's my statement:



No mention of Super Bowl XLV anywhere, unless you're insinuating he somehow "blew" the Super Bowl against Arizona.

And it's "Forrest" Gump (two r's) by the way. May want to spell correctly when casting aspersions on the intellect of others.

Your problem is that you stuck your straw in my Koolaid. I made a reply to another poster's comment about Ben's body of work and you responded with that Forest Gump BS. You also kept making excuses about Ben being injured. Well if he was injured, then his azz should have been on the bench. Keep his hurt azz on the sidelines if he can't help the team win.

I like and am a fan of Ben but I will not give him a pass when he fucks up.

lloydwoodson
12-30-2012, 08:54 PM
No, more like the league's lips are stuck to the Mannings' collective ballsack. Do you really think Manning had more to do with that win than the Giants' front four? Honestly?

Try reading slower next time.

Can you give me an example of a front four being given the MVP trophy?

Superbowl MVP goes to QB by default... you'd have to be a terrible qb to play in multiple superbowls and not get one.

fansince'76
12-30-2012, 08:59 PM
Can you give me an example of a front four being given the MVP trophy?

Superbowl MVP goes to QB by default... you'd have to be a terrible qb to play in multiple superbowls and not get one.

Harvey Martin and Randy White, Super Bowl XII. It could have just as easily been given to Justin Tuck for his two sacks, and it would have been more deserved because it was his unit that won that game.

lipps83
12-30-2012, 09:04 PM
Your problem is that you stuck your straw in my Koolaid. I made a reply to another poster's comment about Ben's body of work and you responded with that Forest Gump BS. You also kept making excuses about Ben being injured. Well if he was injured, then his azz should have been on the bench. Keep his hurt azz on the sidelines if he can't help the team win.

I like and am a fan of Ben but I will not give him a pass when he fucks up.

A hurt Ben was still the best chance to win. Didn't you see how horribly Batch and Leftwich played?

I would rather Ben play QB with his throwing arm missing than either one of them. Okay, maybe Batch would be better than a left-arm throwing Ben but he would get hurt anyway so then

WHO DO YOU PLAY WHEN ALL THREE OF YOUR QB'S ARE HURT? Leftwich and Batch can't breathe oxygen without argon putting them on the PUP list anyway.

Pick your poison.

harrison'samonster
12-30-2012, 09:05 PM
The Giants have the perfect front 4 to beat a team like the Patriots. I remember the year the Patriots were going undefeated they had the Giants in the last game of the season. I knew that if any team could beat them it would be NY. Well, the Patriots still won that one.

But when it came to the SB, NY's front four and the whole defense played a great, even perfect game. Eli came up with the clutch plays at the end though.

GoFor7
12-30-2012, 09:08 PM
one correction:

Yinzers like 70's football, you would think after reading it 100 times you would have gotten that straight by now. :chuckle:

90's football too - they might actually like that better since there was no star QB during that time.

Funny thing is after winning their first two SBs, the 70's team realized they had to be more than defense and possession to win again. That part of Steeler history seems to be forgotten easily. Wonder why....? :coffee:

fansince'76
12-30-2012, 09:17 PM
Can you give me an example of a front four being given the MVP trophy?

Superbowl MVP goes to QB by default... you'd have to be a terrible qb to play in multiple superbowls and not get one.

There've been other Super Bowls where the guy who got the MVP trophy wasn't the one who was most deserving of it. Stallworth should've gotten it for Super Bowl XIV, seeing as how Bradshaw threw THREE picks in that game.

And it took Elway five tries before he finally got one.

zcoop
12-30-2012, 09:20 PM
A hurt Ben was still the best chance to win. Didn't you see how horribly Batch and Leftwich played?

I would rather Ben play QB with his throwing arm missing than either one of them. Okay, maybe Batch would be better than a left-arm throwing Ben but he would get hurt anyway so then

WHO DO YOU PLAY WHEN ALL THREE OF YOUR QB'S ARE HURT? Leftwich and Batch can't breathe oxygen without argon putting them on the PUP list anyway.

Pick your poison.

My point was about making excuses for him. I agree that we don't have adequate back ups, you get no argument from me there. Also, Batch acutally didn't look too bad in the win he had and we lost to SD and Cinn with Ben. Similar shit happened last year when we had Dixon just sitting on the bench. We played a hobbling Ben and still lost the key games. I blame that shit on Tomlin.

We're in bad shape if we can't function without one missing player. I know Ben means a lot to our Offense, but that is totally fucked up. We need to be able to compete with the team we put on the field.

Are you saying that we're a One Trick Pony at the QB position?

LVSteelersfan
12-30-2012, 09:27 PM
My point was about making excuses for him. I agree that we don't have adequate back ups, you get no argument from me there. Also, Batch acutally didn't look too bad in the win he had and we lost to SD and Cinn with Ben. Similar shit happened last year when we had Dixon just sitting on the bench. We played a hobbling Ben and still lost the key games. I blame that shit on Tomlin.

We're in bad shape if we can't function without one missing player. I know Ben means a lot to our Offense, but that is totally fucked up. We need to be able to compete with the team we put on the field.

Are you saying that we're a One Trick Pony at the QB position?

Seriously? Why don't you give us a list of teams that have good backup QBs and can win consistently with any of them. Bet you can't come up with 5 teams. What a load of garbage. There is no such thing as a franchise backup QB. They are backups for a reason. A lot of teams don't even have a starting franchise QB.

zcoop
12-30-2012, 09:36 PM
Seriously? Why don't you give us a list of teams that have good backup QBs and can win consistently with any of them. Bet you can't come up with 5 teams. What a load of garbage. There is no such thing as a franchise backup QB. They are backups for a reason. A lot of teams don't even have a starting franchise QB.

There you go trying to put words into my post. I know that there is no such thing as a backup franchise QB but there should be a serviceable back up that is capable of managing a few games in the interim.

BTW, TEAMS win games, not individual players. And what is your definition of a franchise QB? Is it about winning games or the money they make?

steel striker
12-30-2012, 10:08 PM
Ben is one of the best Qb's in the league and, if Brady aka Precious had to play behind the steeler o-line he would not make it through 4 games before being carried out on a stretcher. We have had a make shift o-line since 2006 it has been amazing that Ben has played as well as he has. Without Ben we would be in deep trouble.

lloydwoodson
12-30-2012, 10:29 PM
Ben is one of the best Qb's in the league and, if Brady aka Precious had to play behind the steeler o-line he would not make it through 4 games before being carried out on a stretcher. We have had a make shift o-line since 2006 it has been amazing that Ben has played as well as he has. Without Ben we would be in deep trouble.

Brady is actually really tough he just looks like a girl.

Your argument is invalid.

Hawaii 5-0
12-30-2012, 10:39 PM
Brady is actually really tough he just looks like a girl.



yes, he does...

http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/91000/Tom-Brady-Gay-Football-Player--91386.jpg

Ricco Suavez
12-30-2012, 10:41 PM
You know what I like about these Eli fans and how he is so much better than Ben. Is they use the argument that Ben would be nothing without his defense. Yet in two Superbowls against the Patriots who were at the time one of the most prolific scoring teams yet one of the worst defenses, both games were defensive battles. G-men win 17-14 Correct me if I am wrong but is 17 less than the 20 something we bitch about the Ben led offense, how bout the second game 21-17 , look they scored 21, but the defense had a safety so really only 19. So in two SB the Great Eli, sorry, the ELIte QB lead his team to and avg of 18 points against a bottom tier defense (once either last or next to last) while the defense held one of the highest scoring teams to 14 and 17. Now answer me this who benefited more from a Great defense. Sorry but you cant just cherry pick your arguments to fit your Ben hate.

lloydwoodson
12-30-2012, 10:53 PM
You know what I like about these Eli fans and how he is so much better than Ben. Is they use the argument that Ben would be nothing without his defense. Yet in two Superbowls against the Patriots who were at the time one of the most prolific scoring teams yet one of the worst defenses, both games were defensive battles. G-men win 17-14 Correct me if I am wrong but is 17 less than the 20 something we bitch about the Ben led offense, how bout the second game 21-17 , look they scored 21, but the defense had a safety so really only 19. So in two SB the Great Eli, sorry, the ELIte QB lead his team to and avg of 18 points against a bottom tier defense (once either last or next to last) while the defense held one of the highest scoring teams to 14 and 17. Now answer me this who benefited more from a Great defense. Sorry but you cant just cherry pick your arguments to fit your Ben hate.

You can be better than Eli Manning and still suck. Eli Manning is not elite. Eli and Ben are both pretend elites because people like round numbers.

There is not an elite 5. There is an elite 4.

P Manning, Brady, Brees and Rodgers. That is it. No one else.

There are a reason those teams have offenses in the top 5 year after year after year. I'll give you a hint: it isn't the coaching staff.

GoFor7
12-30-2012, 10:58 PM
http://www.timesonline.com/columnists/sports/mark_madden/how-many-rings-does-boomer-esiason-have/article_852c0b8d-da54-5b89-8e20-36044d7e876f.html

How many rings does Boomer Esiason have?

Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2012 8:18 pm | Updated: 10:22 pm, Sun Dec 30, 2012.

By Mark Madden Times Sports Correspondent

Ex-Cincinnati Bengals quarterback Boomer Esiason criticized Ben Roethlisberger.

That’s like France criticizing Germany for lack of military acumen. Even if a valid point gets made, the track records simply can’t be ignored.

Esiason labeled Roethlisberger a “drama queen” because of his reputation, deserved or not, for embellishing injuries.

What’s that matter as long as Roethlisberger plays and produces?

There’s no denying it was a difficult year for the Steelers’ QB. A rough finish despite three touchdown passes in Sunday's meaningless home victory against Cleveland.

A potential MVP season collapsed because of injury. Roethlisberger missed three games and wasn’t the same when he returned, donning goat’s horns for losses to Dallas and Cincinnati, the latter destroying the Steelers’ playoff hopes.

Criticism of Roethlisberger is warranted. He’d be the first to agree. Despite solid personal stats, 8-8 doesn’t lie. Roethlisberger’s two-minute touch abandoned him.

But when detractors scorn Roethlisberger, he doesn’t get the same respect accorded others of his accomplishment level. If Tom Brady has been criticized with the same venom Roethlisberger too often absorbs, I haven’t heard about it.

Roethlisberger is a two-time Super Bowl winner. He is a three-time Super Bowl participant. He engineered a two-minute drill to win Super Bowl XLIII. Brady has won three Super Bowls, but lost two. Nobody’s perfect.

Critics cite supposed imperfections in Roethlisberger’s style. He needs to tweak his game, we’re told. Steelers president Art Rooney II drew upon his vast playing and coaching experience to make that pronouncement.

What, exactly, does Roethlisberger need to tweak? This year, he got rid of the ball quicker. He threw the ball away more. He took shorter drops.

The result: Roethlisberger still got hurt, and the Steelers went 8-8.

Maybe Roethlisberger’s game was fine just the way it was. No tweak needed.

The Steelers are the only team in the NFL that would dumb down a top five quarterback. Yinzer Nation is the only fan base stupid enough to accept it.

Let’s examine the reason for that: The Steelers, and Steelers fans, have never really forgiven Roethlisberger for the transgressions alleged in Georgia and Nevada.

Evidence was flimsy. No charges were filed. But franchise-wise and fan-wise, the attitude toward Roethlisberger has never been the same. Ownership doesn’t want Roethlisberger (or anyone) to be bigger than the logo or the family. Never did. Fans believe Roethlisberger soiled the team’s squeaky-clean image.

That’s insanity, of course. James Harrison got convicted of domestic abuse, and he’s a Heinz Field hero. Alameda Ta’amu put bystanders and police at risk by driving drunk through Pittsburgh’s South Side, but he’s still on the roster. The Steelers haven’t been holier than thou since Ernie Holmes shot at a police helicopter in 1973, yet played five more seasons in Pittsburgh.

Thirteen men started at QB for the Steelers between their fourth and fifth Super Bowl wins. If you want to hate quarterbacks, hate those quarterbacks.

During his anti-Ben rant, Esiason listed the NFL’s top four QBs (Brady, Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees), which certainly delivers a message via Roethlisberger’s omission. Esiason also said that Roethlisberger “has to be a man,” and “not just on Sunday.”

What does that mean? I honestly have no clue.

Esiason seemed most annoyed by Roethlisberger pronouncing that his broken ribs threatened his aorta and thus his life, saying that “everybody across the NFL rolled his eyes.” The Steelers’ doctors didn’t roll their eyes, however. But if Todd Haley can coach football without having played it, I suppose Esiason can pretend to be a physician despite lack of a medical degree. Or a Super Bowl ring.

Ricco Suavez
12-30-2012, 11:05 PM
You can be better than Eli Manning and still suck. Eli Manning is not elite. Eli and Ben are both pretend elites because people like round numbers.

There is not an elite 5. There is an elite 4.

P Manning, Brady, Brees and Rodgers. That is it. No one else.

There are a reason those teams have offenses in the top 5 year after year after year. I'll give you a hint: it isn't the coaching staff.

And yet an Eli lead team has made it to 2 SB and won both and a Ben lead team has been to 3 and won 2. Hell you even have teams like the Bears make it with a Grossman. Elite QBs do not guarantee SB appearances or wins. I know those QB you mention are some of the best ever but you and others just assume they would fit right in with our team and produce the same. I promise you we would not have Haley here if Peyton was the QB, him and Arians would of gotten along as well as Ben and him did. I have seen Brady and Peyton both fail miserably when they feel pressure, much like the kind Ben has had for going on three years now. Peyton and Brady have had for the biggest part of their careers outstanding lines and receivers, maybe not so much on defense like Ben has benefited from. When you spend your cap money on OL and WR, TEs you tend to have little to spend on the defense, sorry you can't have it both ways even though the Steelers have tried.

Bayz101
12-30-2012, 11:09 PM
You can be better than Eli Manning and still suck. Eli Manning is not elite. Eli and Ben are both pretend elites because people like round numbers.

There is not an elite 5. There is an elite 4.

P Manning, Brady, Brees and Rodgers. That is it. No one else.

There are a reason those teams have offenses in the top 5 year after year after year. I'll give you a hint: it isn't the coaching staff.

Okay.

Seriously?

This isn't fantasy fucking football.

Ben and Eli BOTH have more rings than THREE of the four "elite" quarterbacks you listed, and Eli beat the other QB in both of his Super Bowl appearances. I'd like to think that alone puts both Ben AND Eli in that conversation, don't ya think? :doh:

fansince'76
12-30-2012, 11:14 PM
Yes, the apocalypse is indeed nigh - I find myself agreeing with Mark Madden...

teegre
12-30-2012, 11:14 PM
Okay.

Seriously?

This isn't fantasy fucking football.

Ben and Eli BOTH have more rings than THREE of the four "elite" quarterbacks you listed, and Eli beat the other QB in both of his Super Bowl appearances. I'd like to think that alone puts both Ben AND Eli in that conversation, don't ya think? :doh:

Eli is damn good in the fourth quarter... and in the play-offs.

So is BB.

But... the fourth quarter is ONLY when games are won. And, likewise, play-offs games are ONLY important for winning championships.

Come on, Bayz... get a clue.

GoFor7
12-30-2012, 11:15 PM
I didn't know Steelers fans were so into stats.....

Ricco Suavez
12-30-2012, 11:17 PM
I didn't know Steelers fans were so into stats.....

They are when they can Cherry Pick which ones supports their Love/Hate of a player.

lloydwoodson
12-30-2012, 11:57 PM
And yet an Eli lead team has made it to 2 SB and won both and a Ben lead team has been to 3 and won 2. Hell you even have teams like the Bears make it with a Grossman. Elite QBs do not guarantee SB appearances or wins. I know those QB you mention are some of the best ever but you and others just assume they would fit right in with our team and produce the same. I promise you we would not have Haley here if Peyton was the QB, him and Arians would of gotten along as well as Ben and him did. I have seen Brady and Peyton both fail miserably when they feel pressure, much like the kind Ben has had for going on three years now. Peyton and Brady have had for the biggest part of their careers outstanding lines and receivers, maybe not so much on defense like Ben has benefited from. When you spend your cap money on OL and WR, TEs you tend to have little to spend on the defense, sorry you can't have it both ways even though the Steelers have tried.

Grossman made the superbowl? He sucks. Amazing defense and amazing special teams for the Bears that year- some of the best ever. Who beat Grossman that year? Peyton Manning.

Brady gets rid of the ball faster than anyone in the NFL. Who are his amazing wrs? Brady's best receivers in his first superbowl win were David Patten and Troy Brown.

Here are some stats for you GoFor7:

Last year a Peyton Manning team missed the playoffs - 2001.

Last year a Tom Brady team missed the playoffs - 2002.

ELITE!!!!

lloydwoodson
12-31-2012, 05:35 PM
Sorry guys - it is the same underachieving offense year after year. The offensive coordinators are variables - the quarterback is the constant.

Top quarterbacks with new coordinators last year and the ppg their offenses produced:

Roethlisberger 2011 20 ppg 2012 21 ppg

Tom Brady 2011 32 ppg 2012 35 ppg

Matt Ryan 2011 25 ppg 2012 26 ppg

Cutler 2011 22 ppg 2012 23 ppg

P Manning 2010 27 ppg 2012 30 ppg

Rivers 2011 25 ppg 2012 22 ppg

Flacco 2011 24 ppg 2012 25 ppg

Romo 2011 23 ppg 2012 23 ppg

Rodgers 2011 35 ppg 2012 27 ppg

Conclusion: Seeing that only Rodgers offensive production changed significantly, if a team wants to score more points they are better off with a new quarterback than a new coordinator.

Ricco Suavez
12-31-2012, 05:51 PM
First Cutler benefited from 9 TD from his Defense and STs. His team also had 1970 yds rushing. Flacco 4TDs and 1900 yds rushing. Rivers 8 TDs from other than the offense. BTW if you take the three games that Ben did not play, the team average is 22 not 21. Sorry if you going to make it all on Ben than I have to adjust for the games he actually plays and not the team. Every QB you mentioned and for the life of me I do not know why you keep bringing Peyton and Bradys numbers in when I have never denied they are two of the best ever, Every QB yo mentioned had 2 or more TDs provided by the Defense or STs. Steelers 1 this year. Ryan and Rodgers both had higher % than our awful QB, Flacco and Cutler much worse, and Romo and Rivers real close. You beating a dead horse my friend the QB play does not always translate in to points, there are other factors that you are either blind to or refuse to see.

Your conclusions meet your own criteria and that is all you want. You keep beating our QB down and he will still be here, just think one of these days you can say with certainty " I told them they would get rid of Ben"

GoFor7
12-31-2012, 05:54 PM
If Ben said the sky was blue, lloydwoodson would argue it until every single person acknowledged the sky was not blue.

sluggermatt15
12-31-2012, 06:16 PM
I can't argue with you GoFor7 - you are the biggest homer I have ever seen.

To say that Roethlisberger is better than Brees is a complete joke and strips you of all credibility.

Brees is a 2 time NFL Offensive POY.

Brees has back to back 40 td seasons.

Brees lost today - his offense put up 38 points; his defense allowed 44 points.

Brees had 8 games with more than 30 points. What do you think the Steelers record would be if they had a qb putting up 30 points per game?

Your argument is invalid.

I could not agree more. Plus, Brees has thrown for over 5,000 yards for what, three consecutive seasons? That's amazing.

Ben is an elite quarterback, but IMO he is not as good as Peyton Manning, Tom Brady or Drew Brees. I think one could make an argument he is as good as or better than Rodgers though.

Back to the thread topic. I don't believe Ben is the problem. But what I do believe is that he came back too soon from his most recent injury. And that may have been evident in his performances since his return - he's turned the ball over, missed some key throws, and in some cases held onto the ball too long.

From a coaching perspective, it was stupid for Tomlin to let him start. Batch had a hell of a game against the Ravens. He looked nothing like the QB in the Browns game in the previous week. Tomlin should have stuck with Batch against San Diego. Then give Ben another week at practice to get back in the groove.

Bottom line: Bad coaching call.

Ricco Suavez
12-31-2012, 06:22 PM
Intelligent post Slugg, I for one do not think Ben is as good as Brees or Rodgers, much less Peyton or Brady who both will be first vote HOFers. This Ben is the problem is what gets me, it leaves no room for the idea that it could be something with the system he plays in (even if its a new one from last year). There is no universal law that says because we changed OC then if things do not improve its got to be our QB. With that kind of reasoning then all twice divorced people should just accept that it is all on them. (In some cases this could very well be true)

OX1947
12-31-2012, 06:26 PM
Grossman made the superbowl? He sucks. Amazing defense and amazing special teams for the Bears that year- some of the best ever. Who beat Grossman that year? Peyton Manning.

Brady gets rid of the ball faster than anyone in the NFL. Who are his amazing wrs? Brady's best receivers in his first superbowl win were David Patten and Troy Brown.

Here are some stats for you GoFor7:

Last year a Peyton Manning team missed the playoffs - 2001.

Last year a Tom Brady team missed the playoffs - 2002.

ELITE!!!!

Thank you. Now I do not have to write it. The term elite gets thrown around like Great or Clutch. There are 4 elite Qbs right now. Manning, Brady, Rodgers and Brees, everyone else is very good to shitty.

GoFor7
12-31-2012, 06:30 PM
I could not agree more. Plus, Brees has thrown for over 5,000 yards for what, three consecutive seasons? That's amazing.

Do you really think Art Rooney II would want a QB throwing for 5,000 yards in a season?

Ben is an elite quarterback, but IMO he is not as good as Peyton Manning, Tom Brady or Drew Brees. I think one could make an argument he is as good as or better than Rodgers though.

I won't argue the exact ranking of the 5 best QBs in the league, but the difference between Ben and those QBs is that their teams actually let them win the game early instead of waiting until the last 2 minutes. Those teams emphasis scoring, the Steelers emphasis possession and ball-control. Ben won't pull a miracle out of his ass every time when the Steelers handcuff him for the majority of the game. His third-down conversion rate before the injury should speak to how good of a QB he is and how badly the Steelers under-use him.

sluggermatt15
12-31-2012, 06:52 PM
Intelligent post Slugg, I for one do not think Ben is as good as Brees or Rodgers, much less Peyton or Brady who both will be first vote HOFers. This Ben is the problem is what gets me, it leaves no room for the idea that it could be something with the system he plays in (even if its a new one from last year). There is no universal law that says because we changed OC then if things do not improve its got to be our QB. With that kind of reasoning then all twice divorced people should just accept that it is all on them. (In some cases this could very well be true)

Thanks. I agree with you. This year Ben didn't look like he was spot on with Haley's offense. At times he looked right on the money, and others, particularly in recent weeks, Ben's out there and he looks like he has no idea what he is doing. I'm not going to blame it all on transition time, but I think it may have some to do with it. If Haley stays, and he should, year 2 and year 3 (2013 and 2014) the entire offense should be up to speed. So next season I fully expect Ben to be on the same page as Haley and to know what he's doing at all times on the field. Hopefully we will see the results.

GoFor7
12-31-2012, 06:55 PM
Thanks. I agree with you. This year Ben didn't look like he was spot on with Haley's offense. At times he looked right on the money, and others, particularly in recent weeks, Ben's out there and he looks like he has no idea what he is doing. I'm not going to blame it all on transition time, but I think it may have some to do with it. If Haley stays, and he should, year 2 and year 3 (2013 and 2014) the entire offense should be up to speed. So next season I fully expect Ben to be on the same page as Haley and to know what he's doing at all times on the field. Hopefully we will see the results.

Not if they continue to worry about possession over scoring. That has to be the emphasis going into next season. Points first, then possess. They did the opposite this year and it resulted in 8-8.

sluggermatt15
12-31-2012, 07:26 PM
Not if they continue to worry about possession over scoring. That has to be the emphasis going into next season. Points first, then possess. They did the opposite this year and it resulted in 8-8.

The Steelers did a terrible job at possessing the football this year. I'm not surprised it resulted in 8-8. IMO they did a better job at scoring, when they made that their priority. I don't think the defense cares that much if it has to keep playing on the field if the offense puts up 7 points every 1.5 to 2 minutes. But when the offense keeps going three-and-out, the defense HATES that.

lloydwoodson
12-31-2012, 07:45 PM
Hey guys... do you think Roethlisberger will ever throw for more yards at some point in his career than Luck did in his rookie season?

Didn't Arians control both their offenses?

Stillers2012
12-31-2012, 08:55 PM
Brady. Manning, Brees, Rodgers and Ben. The only difference between Ben and these other guys is that Ben gets no preferencial treatment from the refs. I have seen guys dive at Brady and miss. Brady looks at the ref and gets a flag. Last season, my daughter called me into the room to show me a New England play that was on 4th down. Brady throws across the line to Welker and the ball hits the ground at Welker's fingertips. Welker scoops it off the ground and runs to about a yard short of the marker. The refs move the ball a yard forward and give him the first down. Every rteplay shown on T.V. was obviously an incomplete pass and 1 yard short yet the refs called inconclusive. First down for the Cheatriots. If Ben got these kind of calls half the time that Brady and the Mannings and Brees and Rodgers gets these calls he'd be unstoppable. Instead he is constantly being cheap shotted by teams and never gets a break.

OX1947
12-31-2012, 09:00 PM
Brady. Manning, Brees, Rodgers and Ben. The only difference between Ben and these other guys is that Ben gets no preferencial treatment from the refs. I have seen guys dive at Brady and miss. Brady looks at the ref and gets a flag. Last season, my daughter called me into the room to show me a New England play that was on 4th down. Brady throws across the line to Welker and the ball hits the ground at Welker's fingertips. Welker scoops it off the ground and runs to about a yard short of the marker. The refs move the ball a yard forward and give him the first down. Every rteplay shown on T.V. was obviously an incomplete pass and 1 yard short yet the refs called inconclusive. First down for the Cheatriots. If Ben got these kind of calls half the time that Brady and the Mannings and Brees and Rodgers gets these calls he'd be unstoppable. Instead he is constantly being cheap shotted by teams and never gets a break.

Ben is not in the same group of Manning, Brees, Brady and Rodgers. Not even close.

GoFor7
12-31-2012, 09:54 PM
Hey guys... do you think Roethlisberger will ever throw for more yards at some point in his career than Luck did in his rookie season?

Didn't Arians control both their offenses?

Maybe because the owner of the Colts isn't trying to tell Arians how to run his offense in Indy.

Ricco Suavez
12-31-2012, 09:59 PM
Hey guys... do you think Roethlisberger will ever throw for more yards at some point in his career than Luck did in his rookie season?

Didn't Arians control both their offenses?

I don't know, maybe if he played for an actual owner who did not want Steeler offense.

How bout Luck had 627 attempts and the most Ben has had ever was 513.
How bout luck has 7 yd per attempt ratio, and Ben has 7.9 yard ratio.
How bout Luck has 12.9 yds per catch and Ben is a CAREER 12.6 yd per catch.

You got to throw the ball to put up passing yards, you still want a game manager.

How you like those numbers to blow out another of your "Facts"

GoFor7
12-31-2012, 10:08 PM
I don't know, maybe if he played for an actual owner who did not want Steeler offense.

How bout Luck had 627 attempts and the most Ben has had ever was 513.
How bout luck has 7 yd per attempt ratio, and Ben has 7.9 yard ratio.
How bout Luck has 12.9 yds per catch and Ben is a CAREER 12.6 yd per catch.

You got to throw the ball to put up passing yards, you still want a game manager.

How you like those numbers to blow out another of your "Facts"

He's a typical yinzer. Before the game he wants Ben to basically be a game manager. Gotta be all about defense and running. But if Ben isn't able to pull a miracle out of his ass after the Steelers waste time playing Marty ball, then he'll bitch because Ben didn't do enough and that Brady or Manning put up all these great numbers and Ben doesn't.

He can't seem to get that ball-control offenses don't put up many points. Brady and Manning are allowed to try and win a game early, Ben isn't allowed to do it until the last 2 minutes.

OX1947
12-31-2012, 10:15 PM
If you look at Ben's stats during the super bowl years, one number comes to mind. 17. Every year he throws for 17 TD's, the Steelers go to the Super Bowl. His two when he has good stats, Steelers lose early or don't get in at all. Maybe glorified game manager is the best way to go.

GoFor7
12-31-2012, 10:19 PM
If you look at Ben's stats during the super bowl years, one number comes to mind. 17. Every year he throws for 17 TD's, the Steelers go to the Super Bowl. His two when he has good stats, Steelers lose early or don't get in at all. Maybe glorified game manager is the best way to go.

Or maybe it would suggest there are bigger problems on the team....

OX1947
12-31-2012, 10:26 PM
Or maybe it would suggest there are bigger problems on the team....

Well, lets see whats been the same the last few years.

Offensive line blows my rear end

Tomlin never plays to blow out any teams, EVER.

Our running backs suck

Our defense is number 1 in the league

Ben misses 3 games a year because he still hasn't realized he is human and it will be sooner he turns into Jim Otto after his career is over.

Things that changed:

Mike Wallace turning into a cancer. Mendy officially becoming what most of us realized he would turn into, which is an underachieving Osama ball gargler.

GoFor7
12-31-2012, 10:34 PM
Well, lets see whats been the same the last few years.

Offensive line blows my rear end

Hopefully they can resign Starks - he was the rock of that line this season

Tomlin never plays to blow out any teams, EVER.

That's what happens when you're obsessed with ball-control.

Our running backs suck

Makes you wonder, after Artie made it clear he wanted emphasis on the running game, and with Mendenhall still recovering, why the Steelers didn't go after guys like Brandon Jacobs or Michael Bush for one year.

Our defense is number 1 in the league

Stat Curtain. Needs to make more splash plays. More turnovers and more sacks.

Ben misses 3 games a year because he still hasn't realized he is human and it will be sooner he turns into Jim Otto after his career is over.

He was doing what Artie wanted him to before the injury. Maybe WRs gotta get open, and maybe the line has to block better.

Things that changed:

Mike Wallace turning into a cancer. Mendy officially becoming what most of us realized he would turn into, which is an underachieving Osama ball gargler.

I won't argue that Wallace was or wasn't a distraction, but he still did better than Brown and Sanders this season.

As for Mendenhall, that guy just wants out of Pittsburgh. There's no love lost between him and Tomlin.

lloydwoodson
01-01-2013, 12:29 AM
I don't know, maybe if he played for an actual owner who did not want Steeler offense.

How bout Luck had 627 attempts and the most Ben has had ever was 513.
How bout luck has 7 yd per attempt ratio, and Ben has 7.9 yard ratio.
How bout Luck has 12.9 yds per catch and Ben is a CAREER 12.6 yd per catch.

You got to throw the ball to put up passing yards, you still want a game manager.

How you like those numbers to blow out another of your "Facts"

I knew that Luck threw more this season than Roethlisberger threw in his first two.

I wasn't sure you would catch that but it was fun to post that stat all the same.

I am going to predict right now, that if Luck stays healthy he will throw for more than 32 tds next season and more than 5000 yards.

You know who was a helluva game manager? Troy Aikman. I mean that as the nicest possible comment.

You know who else was a helluva game manager? Joe Montana. Only one season with more than 30 tds. Never threw for 4000 yards. AND HE HAD SOME REALLY GOOD RECEIVERS.

Seems to me that you unfairly criticized me for buying into fantasy football.

You are the real stats hound.

Joe Montana was a one trick pony- all he did was win.

I would take Roethlisberger's rookie season over Luck's any day of the week.

Unlike you I don't buy into this Madden football bs.

zcoop
01-01-2013, 12:10 PM
Hopefully they can resign Starks - he was the rock of that line this season



That's what happens when you're obsessed with ball-control.



Makes you wonder, after Artie made it clear he wanted emphasis on the running game, and with Mendenhall still recovering, why the Steelers didn't go after guys like Brandon Jacobs or Michael Bush for one year.



Stat Curtain. Needs to make more splash plays. More turnovers and more sacks.



He was doing what Artie wanted him to before the injury. Maybe WRs gotta get open, and maybe the line has to block better.



I won't argue that Wallace was or wasn't a distraction, but he still did better than Brown and Sanders this season.

As for Mendenhall, that guy just wants out of Pittsburgh. There's no love lost between him and Tomlin.

You're right, Wallace was no cancer this year. Just because a guy wants to get paid and holds out doesn't equate to being a cancer. He came in and did a professional job at the position he was assigned. He was also a bargain for the wages paid to him and kept his issues between him and the team's FO. Both Miller and Brown made more than tripled his pay, but he produced better than them.

It amazes me how some folks can make up bullshit to slant issues when the facts say something totally different.

GoFor7
01-01-2013, 12:12 PM
You're right, Wallace was no cancer this year. Just because a guy wants to get paid and holds out doesn't equate to being a cancer. He came in and did a professional job at the position he was assigned. He was also a bargain for the wages paid to him and kept his issues between him and the team's FO. Both Miller and Brown made more than tripled his pay, he produced better than them.

It amazes me how some folks can make up bullshit to slant issues when the facts say something totally different.

I would say Mendenhall was a bigger cancer in that locker room with his "I don't need to apologize" attitude.

lloydwoodson
01-01-2013, 12:16 PM
I would say Mendenhall was a bigger cancer in that locker room with his "I don't need to apologize" attitude.

I think the Wallace hatred was overdone. He didn't miss a game.

However, Wallace was Ben's favourite target and he had almost no time to learn the new offense.

I think in its own way Wallace's holdout did hurt himself and the team.

Mendenhall is a dumbass. Plain and simple. He needs to stop voicing his opinion all the time but then so do I. :toofunny:

I don't think Mendenhall is a cancer. I haven't heard "Mendenhall's side of the story" in the media. As long as Mendenhall and Tomlin keep it behind closed doors it isn't an issue. I think there is probably some mutual respect there and that will be revealed depending on whether Mendy is back again.

Ricco Suavez
01-01-2013, 02:27 PM
Aikman a game manager, ok I will buy that. Now how was it they were successful with a game manager and we did not just let Ben manage a game.

This could have alot to do with it Cowboys SB years:
1992 Rushing 2121 Turnovers 7th in the league at +7
1993 Rushing 2161 TOs 8th at +6
1995 Rushing 2201 TOs 11th at +2

Steelers 2012
Rushing 1537 Turnovers 24th and -10.

I do not expect you understand that those kind of numbers make a difference in the game plan you can run or how it affects a QB, or even how it can affect Scoring. You might not, but most knowledgeable football fans would.

Ricco Suavez
01-01-2013, 02:35 PM
Joe Montanas Superbowl years

81 Rush 1941 TO +23 1st in NFL
84 2465 +16 3rd
85 2232 +1 11th
89 1966 +12 2nd

Ricco Suavez
01-01-2013, 02:46 PM
I would like to add one more thing to this Montana/Aikman game manager theory. The years of their SBs show that they did run the well in most cases right at or over 2000 yds and with the exception of Montanas first SB 3.5 all these teams averages over 4 yds per carry, one as high as 4.7. The exception to Montanas First SB is that the defense was ranked #2 overall and created a +24 in turnovers leading the league that year. This past year we averaged 3.7 and you know how our TO difference.

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 04:02 AM
Aikman a game manager, ok I will buy that. Now how was it they were successful with a game manager and we did not just let Ben manage a game.

This could have alot to do with it Cowboys SB years:
1992 Rushing 2121 Turnovers 7th in the league at +7
1993 Rushing 2161 TOs 8th at +6
1995 Rushing 2201 TOs 11th at +2

Steelers 2012
Rushing 1537 Turnovers 24th and -10.

I do not expect you understand that those kind of numbers make a difference in the game plan you can run or how it affects a QB, or even how it can affect Scoring. You might not, but most knowledgeable football fans would.

Game Manager Ben

2004 Steelers 2464 Yards 2nd in NFL
2005 Steelers 2223 Yards 5th in NFL
2006 Steelers 1992 Yards 10th in NFL

Enter Tomlin/Arians "More weapons for Ben/Let Ben be Ben" Ben
In Arians 5 years as OC 2 OL are drafted on the first day - Pouncey and Gilbert

2007 Steelers 2168 Yards 3rd in NFL
2008 Steelers 1690 Yards 23rd in NFL* FWP/Mendenhall injured
2009 Steelers 1793 Yards 19th in NFL
2010 Steelers 1924 Yards 11th in NFL
2011 Steelers 1903 Yards 14th in NFL

My argument is that the Steelers imagined Roethlisberger to be elite and decided a conventional offense that established the run was not necessary for a player of his calibre. You can not run the ball without an OL. Mendenhall would be a 2000 yard rusher behind the Cowboys 90s OL.

As Ben's role increased the running game has decreased. Mendenhall is every bit as good as Willie Parker was. The OL was neglected because Tomlin wanted "weapons" rather than smashmouth football.

“There are two schools of thought to protect a quarterback … You can get linemen or you can get him weapons – people that people have to account for. Obviously with this pick, we’ve gotten a weapon. So what he is able to do on a football field will help our quarterback and our football team.” Mike Tomlin after drafting Sweed and Mendenhall.

Tomlin and Arians are responsible for allowing the Steelers to move away from their traditional running game. Now the Rooneys want the running game back. This is what is happening to the offense and it is a good thing.

For the first two seasons Roethlisberger was a game manager. The team went 15-1 and 11-5 winning a superbowl. The next season Ben threw on 469 attempts- 170 more than his previous high- and the Steelers missed the playoffs at 8-8.

Roethlisberger throws 42 times vs Jaguars exit playoffs.

Roethlisberger throws 40 times vs Broncos exit playoffs.

Roethlisberger is 55-10 for his career when he throws less than 30 times. 55-10!!!

Ben needs to throw more! He is too elite for winning!

Gnutella
01-02-2013, 04:07 AM
People who don't like Ben Roethlisberger couldn't possibly have been Steeler fans during the 1980's or 1990's. If they were, then they'd be kissing the ground he walks on right now.

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 06:52 AM
People who don't like Ben Roethlisberger couldn't possibly have been Steeler fans during the 1980's or 1990's. If they were, then they'd be kissing the ground he walks on right now.

One thing about worship is that it is faith based. If you worship Ben everything you perceive is tainted. You are no longer able to think critically and subjectively.

I have not seen one person earnestly ask for Ben to be ditched/traded. Show me one example that was not a joke.

Someone makes a thread up claiming someone is trying to "ditch" Ben.

The thread title should be all these "criticize" Ben threads.

Ricco Suavez
01-02-2013, 09:55 AM
One thing about worship is that it is faith based. If you worship Ben everything you perceive is tainted. You are no longer able to think critically and subjectively.

I have not seen one person earnestly ask for Ben to be ditched/traded. Show me one example that was not a joke.

Someone makes a thread up claiming someone is trying to "ditch" Ben.

The thread title should be all these "criticize" Ben threads.

One thing about condemnation is that it is hate based. if you despise Ben then everything you perceive is tainted. You are no longer able to think critically and subjectively.

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 10:06 AM
One thing about condemnation that it is hate based. if you despise Ben then everything you perceive is tainted. You are no longer able to think critically and subjectively.

I've read despise and hate magically inserted into my bitching. Flat out criticizing is not despising, nor is it hate. I love Ben's style of play, however, I want to see more progression out of him than he's shown. He is capable as has demonstrated in flashes. It certainly wouldn't hurt to add more depth to his repertoire or for him to be more accepting of other lines of thinking.

He is outright bitching about not getting his way, well - some of us think his way isn't always the best. That's about it. No hate or despising about it.

Despise - that would happen if he is found to have gotten in trouble, yet again. That stuff I despise. I wasn't there, so I wouldn't really know - but if it happens enough times - then we can talk about those strong words.

Ricco Suavez
01-02-2013, 10:14 AM
I've read despise and hate magically inserted into my bitching. Flat out criticizing is not despising, nor is it hate. I love Ben's style of play, however, I want to see more progression out of him than he's shown. He is capable as has demonstrated in flashes. It certainly wouldn't hurt to add more depth to his repertoire or for him to be more accepting of other lines of thinking.

He is outright bitching about not getting his way, well - some of us think his way isn't always the best. That's about it. No hate or despising about it.

Despise - that would happen if he is found to have gotten in trouble, yet again. That stuff I despise. I wasn't there, so I wouldn't really know - but if it happens enough times - then we can talk about those strong words.

If you feel you need to criticize his personality or his demeanor, than I will not debate, cause he is human and subject to shortcomings. You want to talk about his bad play and I will debate you also but I see his shortcomings on the field as well. But if you come on the forums and but all the blame on Ben and/or do not acknowledge his contributions to this team even now and in the past then yes, I will debate. If you compare other teams QB past and present and do not present all the facts then yes I will dig up the complete story. My post was to point out that it is easy to say I have B&G glasses because of my fandom for the Steelers and him, but if you have a personal hate for a person its is just as easy to overlook any good. Criticism is not hate, but hate can be disguised as criticism.

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 12:10 PM
If you feel you need to criticize his personality or his demeanor, than I will not debate, cause he is human and subject to shortcomings. You want to talk about his bad play and I will debate you also but I see his shortcomings on the field as well. But if you come on the forums and but all the blame on Ben and/or do not acknowledge his contributions to this team even now and in the past then yes, I will debate. If you compare other teams QB past and present and do not present all the facts then yes I will dig up the complete story. My post was to point out that it is easy to say I have B&G glasses because of my fandom for the Steelers and him, but if you have a personal hate for a person its is just as easy to overlook any good. Criticism is not hate, but hate can be disguised as criticism.

A. I've stated I loved what he did when he took the league by storm
B. I've stated in the same breath that while I think he is one tough SOB, and maybe the toughest QB I've ever watched in modern football, I don't believe that will carry him any farther. I believe he needs to evolve and buy in to some other people and ideas that are there for a reason. I believe he doesn't have the right answers. There is no hate included with that assessment - I simply think this is a turning point in his career, and what helped him achieve greatness, is not the same recipe that will help him sustain and/or increase it.
C. I've also stated that while I love him as our QB, I think in general he doesn't seem like a likable guy. If he is a great fantastic person and everything that everyone has said about him is untrue, then I think he needs to do himself a favor and just not talk to the media a whole lot. It only feeds into the supposed rumors about him and accusations towards him.

I grew up on the if it looks like shit, smells like shit, it usually is . . . philosophy. I can't assume to know Ben, but I know i don't like what I hear from him, nor do I like what others have been saying about him, and accusing him of. This is why it is extremely easy to criticize his game - on top of his past wrongs, he seems to be above everyone else and doesn't need help - he seems ego-crazy and a genuine jerk. Sorry, but that's what he is portraying. Maybe he likes to have fun with the media and fans - but then again, what type of person would want to portray themselves that way - even if it was a big joke? When this personality comes out when something is going to affect his control, and in my assessment - ego, it only backs up what many think about it. Gutsy QB, one of the best ever, but a real jerk, who actually could have been better if he would have stopped thinking so highly of himself and above others.

I have a ton of shortcomings, and I've acknowledged his accomplishments plenty. He isn't getting some special gold star for being a millionaire and contributing to charities, which, I think any good person should do anyways - that doesn't mask the reputation - true or false as it is - he gained by his own doings.

Ricco Suavez
01-02-2013, 02:30 PM
Like I said I m not going to debate his character, you have your opinion and I can not make you change off of that. I used the word condemnation instead of criticize for a reason, that being is criticism is not a bad word, people can withstand criticism and can even learn and improve from constructive criticism. Condemnation on the other hand indicates that Ben has been condemned and not just criticized, example Bens play up to this point in his career has been not only criticized but condemned as not even worthy of mentioning. His accomplishments are given no weight as to the success of the Steelers during his career and I for one think that is just wrong and crazy. I know others post of Bens exploits to the point of bringing some of this on him but do not blame him for that . Dont like him as a person, put him way down on your wish list of QBs you want, just give the man some due to his efforts on the field. I personally did not like Porters antics on or off the field, he was not always a factor in games, but I never misconstrued his part as valued member of a Superbowl team.

Edman
01-02-2013, 04:32 PM
Brady, Brees, Manning, and Rodgers can sling the ball around and their teams win, their teams are successful when they throw the ball because they are truly the Elite QB's. They WIN despite throwing the ball a lot and putting up statistics.

So why aren't the Steelers winning when they let Ben throw the ball around every week? Why is the offense still mediocre even after they "opened it up"? Simple. Because Ben is not in their class. He is who he is. He is better suited to be a game manager who rose to the occasion when called for it. Ever notice that ever since the Steelers opened up the offense, the "Ben Magic" started to fade?

You know who else was a great Game Manager? Joe Montana. No one won better than him. Not saying Ben is Joe Montana, but simply put, he is who he is.

GoFor7
01-02-2013, 05:24 PM
Brady, Brees, Manning, and Rodgers can sling the ball around and their teams win, their teams are successful when they throw the ball because they are truly the Elite QB's. They WIN despite throwing the ball a lot and putting up statistics.

So why aren't the Steelers winning when they let Ben throw the ball around every week? Why is the offense still mediocre even after they "opened it up"? Simple. Because Ben is not in their class. He is who he is. He is better suited to be a game manager who rose to the occasion when called for it. Ever notice that ever since the Steelers opened up the offense, the "Ben Magic" started to fade?

You know who else was a great Game Manager? Joe Montana. No one won better than him. Not saying Ben is Joe Montana, but simply put, he is who he is.

You think the Haley offense should be considered "opened up?" I didn't know ball control and run, run, pass was "opened up." I mean, I guess it was like that in the last 2 minutes of the game when they needed Ben to bail them out from their own stubbornness.

vasteeler
01-02-2013, 05:38 PM
Brady, Brees, Manning, and Rodgers can sling the ball around and their teams win, their teams are successful when they throw the ball because they are truly the Elite QB's. They WIN despite throwing the ball a lot and putting up statistics.

So why aren't the Steelers winning when they let Ben throw the ball around every week? Why is the offense still mediocre even after they "opened it up"? Simple. Because Ben is not in their class. He is who he is. He is better suited to be a game manager who rose to the occasion when called for it. Ever notice that ever since the Steelers opened up the offense, the "Ben Magic" started to fade?

You know who else was a great Game Manager? Joe Montana. No one won better than him. Not saying Ben is Joe Montana, but simply put, he is who he is.

problem is 3 of the 4 qbs you have listed havent played in the super bowl as many times as ben has:noidea:

GoFor7
01-02-2013, 05:40 PM
problem is 3 of the 4 qbs you have listed havent played in the super bowl as many times as ben has:noidea:

And those teams actually allow their QBs to go to work early in a game instead of playing Marty ball for the majority of the game and hoping the QB bails them out at the end...

vasteeler
01-02-2013, 05:42 PM
And those teams actually allow their QBs to go to work early in a game instead of playing Marty ball for the majority of the game and hoping the QB bails them out at the end...


i cant argue with that.

steelfury02
01-03-2013, 02:48 PM
normally I don't give a shit about off the field issues players have, UNTIL it jeopardizes the fortunes of the team

Ben's motorcycle crash - never the same that season, hence - mediocre to bad play at QB position

Ben's 4 game suspension - they won in spite of him, but what org wants their franchise QB suspended for a quarter of season? What other franchise QBs get suspended for goodness sake? Imagine the Pats with no D - without Brady for 4 games? Think their D would help them go 3-1 without him. Speculative - but doubtful

His off the field choices have directly impacted the team on a few occasions. Look a little deeper - sometimes you are the same person off the field and in the locker room - which doesn't make much of a team player - as stated by a few current and former teammates.

It is directly connected.

GoFor7
01-03-2013, 03:24 PM
normally I don't give a shit about off the field issues players have, UNTIL it jeopardizes the fortunes of the team

Ben's motorcycle crash - never the same that season, hence - mediocre to bad play at QB position

Ben's 4 game suspension - they won in spite of him, but what org wants their franchise QB suspended for a quarter of season? What other franchise QBs get suspended for goodness sake? Imagine the Pats with no D - without Brady for 4 games? Think their D would help them go 3-1 without him. Speculative - but doubtful

His off the field choices have directly impacted the team on a few occasions. Look a little deeper - sometimes you are the same person off the field and in the locker room - which doesn't make much of a team player - as stated by a few current and former teammates.

It is directly connected.

I hope you're just as disappointed with Harrison for his off the field issues.

pczach
01-03-2013, 03:36 PM
The Steelers routinely lead the league in points in the last two minutes of the first half. This is primarily when Ben goes no huddle, and controls everything that happens on the field. This is what is so baffleing about those of you that think he needs to be reigned in and strictly follow a rigid system. When he is allowed to call plays, make more line calls, and in general control all aspects of the offense, the Steelers score lots of points.

How is this not an obvious observation to all Steeler fans that watch the games?:noidea:

GoFor7
01-03-2013, 03:53 PM
The Steelers routinely lead the league in points in the last two minutes of the first half. This is primarily when Ben goes no huddle, and controls everything that happens on the field. This is what is so baffleing about those of you that think he needs to be reigned in and strictly follow a rigid system. When he is allowed to call plays, make more line calls, and in general control all aspects of the offense, the Steelers score lots of points.

How is this not an obvious observation to all Steeler fans that watch the games?:noidea:

DING DING DING DING DING!

WE HAVE A WINNER FOLKS!

Riddle_Of_Steel
01-03-2013, 04:06 PM
So, let's break down why you're wrong.

1) Manning plays in a vertical offense where throwing it for 300+ is the norm. If he doesn't go for over 300, something went wrong.

Brady plays in a dink-n-dunk offense like Haley runs-- do we really want to compare Brady's stats to Ben's, while running the same offensive scheme?

2) Manning's offensive line is better than the Steelers right now by a considerable margin. Not when our guys are healthy, but they can't stay healthy.

Might have something to do with having to protect a QB that likes to hold the ball for 7 seconds or more each play, if the playcalling was left up to him.

3) Roethlisberger is 10 - 4 in the postseason compared to Manning's 9-10. So, great, he can win regular season games and throw for a ton of yardage, but chokes when the games actually matter. People think he's going to tear shit up in the playoffs but he hasn't really done it in his career. Regular season stats don't mean shit if you can't win big games.

This is a valid argument. However, I find it telltale that you cite Peyton's superior Oline as the "excuse" for his success, but we don't mention that Ben has been backed up by the league's #1 defense since like....he started playing in the NFL.

4) No one is saying that Ben isn't at fault, but asking him to be traded might in fact be the dumbest thing on these boards. He's not going anywhere.

Agreed. Ben has good and bad points, but to trade him would be dumb.

5) Ben has more Super Bowl rings than Manning does. Sure, it's a team game, but Ben is better in games that count than Manning is. Take your regular season stats, and I'll take Ben in the Super Bowl where he doesn't choke.

If he did not have the #5 ranked defense to bail him out that year-- SB XL would have been one of the biggest chokes in NFL history.

As far as I know, Manning has never posted a 22.9 passer rating in ANY game, postseason or otherwise.

Face it-- if a QB for one of the other 31 other teams posted a 22 passer rating in a postseason game, you would not be looking under every rock for an excuse or rationalization like you are now.

Again, not saying "FIRE BEN!". But as long as you "dumb yinzers" are going to gush and get wet between the legs when he wins games, you beter be fair and also give him his fair share of the blame.

Between 3 offensive coordinators, we have seen the same things, and Ben is the only common denominator:

1) Has to be kept on a "short leash", as the Whiz did for Ben's first 2 seasons (ironically, two of his best seasons) to keep him from going "sandlot".

When he does go "sandlot":

2) LOTS of sacks.

3) LOTS of injured Olinemen (between 3 coordinators, and 3 Olineman coaches).

4) Consistently scoring less than 20 points per game (held true for 2 Offensive coordinators).

5) Great 3rd down rate, but cannot put points on the board.

Riddle_Of_Steel
01-03-2013, 04:26 PM
The Steelers routinely lead the league in points in the last two minutes of the first half.

Source please.

This is primarily when Ben goes no huddle, and controls everything that happens on the field.

Nope. Historically, Ben goes no-huddle late in the 4th quarter when we are losing. That was true under Arians, and it is true under Haley.

This is what is so baffleing about those of you that think he needs to be reigned in and strictly follow a rigid system. When he is allowed to call plays, make more line calls, and in general control all aspects of the offense, the Steelers score lots of points.

First off, I have NOT seen the Steelers "score lots of points" since we drubbed KC 45-7 in 2006. Routinely scoring 20 points or less is NOT "scoring lots of points" at all.

Secondly, I observed the exact opposite.

In the first half of the season, Haley was keeping a tight rein on Ben, and forcing him to go through his progressions on each play and get rid of the ball quicker.

The result? Ben was leading the NFL in 3rd down conversions, 2nd in ToP, we were starting to score more points, and Ben was in MVP conversations.

Then in the second half of the year, when Haley started listening to Mike Wallace and the stupid fans complaining about the lack of deep passing plays (despite the efficient offensive production we have not seen since 2004), he started giving Ben more leeway to run the offense.

The result? The usual Sandlot football-- sacks galore from holding the ball too long, injured Olinemen from trying to hold blocks for 9 seconds each play, lots of failed attempts at forcing the ball to Mike Wallace leading to even more picks and disasters, QB injured and out of the lineup for a month, and an offense that sputters until it coughs itself to life late in the 4th quarter of games.

ow is this not an obvious observation to all Steeler fans that watch the games?:noidea:

I cannot imagine....

If after 2 or 3 offensive coordinators, you keep getting the same results-- maybe the problem is not so much the coaching?

lloydwoodson
01-03-2013, 04:29 PM
The Steelers routinely lead the league in points in the last two minutes of the first half. This is primarily when Ben goes no huddle, and controls everything that happens on the field. This is what is so baffleing about those of you that think he needs to be reigned in and strictly follow a rigid system. When he is allowed to call plays, make more line calls, and in general control all aspects of the offense, the Steelers score lots of points.

How is this not an obvious observation to all Steeler fans that watch the games?:noidea:

The Steelers were 21st in the league in 4th quarter in scoring. Why does he have so much success in the 2nd but not in the 4th?

Are you aware of the terrible time of possession the Steelers have when Ben goes into the no-huddle?

Steelers 23:14 vs Chargers 36:46 Steelers 42 throws vs 17 runs. Steelers lose 34-24

The Chargers were able to run 19 more offensive plays than the Steelers.

Steelers 27:00 vs Cowboys 34:24 Steelers 40 throws vs 17 runs. Steelers lose 27-24

Wasn't Ben in the no huddle when he threw the final pick? I thought he was.

Why can't the defense bail us out when they are on the field for 35 minutes a game! This makes me angry! Where is their conditioning?

Riddle_Of_Steel
01-03-2013, 04:30 PM
I hope you're just as disappointed with Harrison for his off the field issues.

Harrison's off-the-field issues have never caused him to miss any playing time. He had a fight with his girlfriend, but took steps to resolve the matter before it even went to court.
He took anger management classes, made up with his GF, and only had to do some petty stuff for the court like probation or counseling because she dropped the charges.

Riddle_Of_Steel
01-03-2013, 04:43 PM
And those teams actually allow their QBs to go to work early in a game instead of playing Marty ball for the majority of the game and hoping the QB bails them out at the end...

You keep humping this "Martyball" thing like it is a cure-all or something.

Guess what? Arians let Ben run his sandlot crap more often and things were pretty much the same-- offense sputters for 3 and a half quarters before lurching to life in the last few moments of the game-- often too little too late.

How was Haley running a "Martyball" offense? Ben was having his best year to date until he reverted back to the sandlot QB that got him hurt against KC at midseason.

The train came off the tracks AFTER Haley started giving Ben more freedom to run the offense the way he likes to.

The simple fact remains--

* When Haley was completely in control of the offense:
6-3 record
Ben having career season and being mentioned in MVP discussions
Ben best at 3rd down conversions
Offense with 2nd ToP in the league (good thing, since our aged defense was not....ready to go in week 1)
Heath Miller given a larger role.

* After giving Ben more control:
4 of 5 Oline starters injured
2-5 record
Ben holds ball too long and gets crushed by Tamba Hali
Offense totally unable to score
Lots of fruitless deep attempts to Mike Wallace (like the fans wanted I guess)
Heath Miller starts to go unnoticed in favor of trying to fling it 50 yards to Mike "The Hands" Wallace to keep the fans happy.

This is very obvious if you are not a homer....

Riddle_Of_Steel
01-03-2013, 04:46 PM
The ONLY THING Arians was better at than Haley-- was his opening drives.

Arians was really good at scripting an aggressive opening drive to put some points on the board. I don't think this Haley-offense has scored a single TD in the 1st quarter of any game this season (I am sure that is an overstatement, but I can't think of any right now).

lloydwoodson
01-03-2013, 04:47 PM
Harrison's off-the-field issues have never caused him to miss any playing time. He had a fight with his girlfriend, but took steps to resolve the matter before it even went to court.
He took anger management classes, made up with his GF, and only had to do some petty stuff for the court like probation or counseling because she dropped the charges.

I really do not want to go down the road of moral relativism where fans drag up Steelers players problems off the field to make it seem OK for Ben to do the same behaviour.

Rather than acknowledge that other players making mistakes off the field does not make it OK for Ben to do so... they will drudge up the past for the last 20 years airing all the Steelers dirty laundry just to take the focus off Ben. It gets really ugly really fast and if that happens the thread should be closed imo.

Let's worry about what players do on the field.

pczach
01-03-2013, 04:48 PM
Source please.



Nope. Historically, Ben goes no-huddle late in the 4th quarter when we are losing. That was true under Arians, and it is true under Haley.



First off, I have NOT seen the Steelers "score lots of points" since we drubbed KC 45-7 in 2006. Routinely scoring 20 points or less is NOT "scoring lots of points" at all.

Secondly, I observed the exact opposite.

In the first half of the season, Haley was keeping a tight rein on Ben, and forcing him to go through his progressions on each play and get rid of the ball quicker.

The result? Ben was leading the NFL in 3rd down conversions, 2nd in ToP, we were starting to score more points, and Ben was in MVP conversations.

Then in the second half of the year, when Haley started listening to Mike Wallace and the stupid fans complaining about the lack of deep passing plays (despite the efficient offensive production we have not seen since 2004), he started giving Ben more leeway to run the offense.

The result? The usual Sandlot football-- sacks galore from holding the ball too long, injured Olinemen from trying to hold blocks for 9 seconds each play, lots of failed attempts at forcing the ball to Mike Wallace leading to even more picks and disasters, QB injured and out of the lineup for a month, and an offense that sputters until it coughs itself to life late in the 4th quarter of games.



I cannot imagine....

If after 2 or 3 offensive coordinators, you keep getting the same results-- maybe the problem is not so much the coaching?

I don't have a link to a source. I have heard dozens of NFL commentators and experts talk about this over the years.

Here's an interesting source for you Ben Haters. Let me know what you think of this source. http://www.steelerworld.com/fan-news/4222-stats-say-ben-roethlisberger-is-right-about-oc-todd-haleys-poor-play-calling

Riddle_Of_Steel
01-03-2013, 04:53 PM
I don't have a link to a source. I have heard dozens of NFL commentators and experts talk about this over the years.

Fair enough.


Here's an interesting source for you Ben Haters. Let me know what you think of this source.http:// http://www.steelerworld.com/fan-news/4222-stats-say-ben-roethlisberger-is-right-about-oc-todd-haleys-poor-play-calling

Not a Ben-hater. He is still the best QB for the Steelers right now, but that does not mean he should be absolved of his share of the blame for poor play, nor does it mean that he is above criticism from the fans.

Ben has his flaws, and there are plenty of them.

Can you re-post the link? it did not work for me...

Riddle_Of_Steel
01-03-2013, 04:56 PM
I really do not want to go down the road of moral relativism where fans drag up Steelers players problems off the field to make it seem OK for Ben to do the same behaviour.

Rather than acknowledge that other players making mistakes off the field does not make it OK for Ben to do so... they will drudge up the past for the last 20 years airing all the Steelers dirty laundry just to take the focus off Ben. It gets really ugly really fast and if that happens the thread should be closed imo.

Let's worry about what players do on the field.

Agreed. I hear you.

While I get particularly irritated when I read about some of things these chumps do out in town (like Pacman Jones' "make it rain" incident that saw him slamming girl's heads off the dance floor by night's end), I for one do not look to NFL players for my moral compass, nor as an example of how to live my life. I pity anybody who does...

Except for the occasional egregious incident like I mentioned-- I am mostly concerned with what these fools do on the field. Not too concerned with defending their honor or rationalizaing their stupidity off the field.

pczach
01-03-2013, 05:03 PM
Fair enough.



Not a Ben-hater. He is still the best QB for the Steelers right now, but that does not mean he should be absolved of his share of the blame for poor play, nor does it mean that he is above criticism from the fans.

Ben has his flaws, and there are plenty of them.

Can you re-post the link? it did not work for me...

I think the link works now.

lloydwoodson
01-03-2013, 05:07 PM
Here is a fun comparison: Haley's 2008 Cardinals (the last time he had a good QB - he was fired in KC because he was 5-8 with Cassell - he was standing in the way of their 2-14 record) vs Ben/Arians 2008 Steelers.

Haley's "Dink and Dunk" 2008 Offense

26.7 ppg 365.8 ypg 32nd rushing 2nd passing

Ben with Arians 2008

21.7 ppg 311.2 ypg 23rd rushing 17th passing

Ben with Haley 2012

21 ppg 330 ypg 26th rushing 14th passing


So in spite of having no rushing attack to speak of and the 19th ranked defense in the league the 2008 Cardinals make a superbowl run based on the strength of their passing game. The Cardinals had 3 1000 yard receivers that year. Warner throws for 4500 yards and 30 tds reg season and 1100 yards and 11 tds in the playoffs.

This is the OC Roethlisberger has manufactured a problem with? Really?

How many of you think Roethlisberger is going to have a career in coaching after he's done playing? Anyone?

lardlad
01-03-2013, 05:08 PM
The Steelers routinely lead the league in points in the last two minutes of the first half. This is primarily when Ben goes no huddle, and controls everything that happens on the field. This is what is so baffleing about those of you that think he needs to be reigned in and strictly follow a rigid system. When he is allowed to call plays, make more line calls, and in general control all aspects of the offense, the Steelers score lots of points.

How is this not an obvious observation to all Steeler fans that watch the games?:noidea:

Well because no huddle is pretty effective no matter who the offensive coordinator is.

steelfury02
01-03-2013, 05:10 PM
thanks for the link

I will say though - I really don't want this strength to be emphasized even more as he ages - it just isn't enough anymore - I just can't agree with relying on improv

It is a strength of his, and I acknowledge it plenty of times - it just isn't enough for this offense to put up a lot of points consistently.

If they want to be truly dynamic on offense - there needs to be a plan and a belief in something bigger than your own abilities - people have to buy in - not just Ben. Ben's supporting cast did him no favors. If I haven't said that enough for some people - I apologize.

GoFor7
01-03-2013, 05:11 PM
You keep humping this "Martyball" thing like it is a cure-all or something.

Guess what? Arians let Ben run his sandlot crap more often and things were pretty much the same-- offense sputters for 3 and a half quarters before lurching to life in the last few moments of the game-- often too little too late.

How was Haley running a "Martyball" offense? Ben was having his best year to date until he reverted back to the sandlot QB that got him hurt against KC at midseason.

The train came off the tracks AFTER Haley started giving Ben more freedom to run the offense the way he likes to.

The simple fact remains--

* When Haley was completely in control of the offense:
6-3 record
Ben having career season and being mentioned in MVP discussions
Ben best at 3rd down conversions
Offense with 2nd ToP in the league (good thing, since our aged defense was not....ready to go in week 1)
Heath Miller given a larger role.

* After giving Ben more control:
4 of 5 Oline starters injured
2-5 record
Ben holds ball too long and gets crushed by Tamba Hali
Offense totally unable to score
Lots of fruitless deep attempts to Mike Wallace (like the fans wanted I guess)
Heath Miller starts to go unnoticed in favor of trying to fling it 50 yards to Mike "The Hands" Wallace to keep the fans happy.

This is very obvious if you are not a homer....

Actually, most of the early part of the season was Ben bailing out Haley on third down after bad play calling on the first two downs.

And the most important stat: 8-8.

GoFor7
01-03-2013, 05:25 PM
I think this point needs to be bumped:

The Steelers routinely lead the league in points in the last two minutes of the first half. This is primarily when Ben goes no huddle, and controls everything that happens on the field. This is what is so baffleing about those of you that think he needs to be reigned in and strictly follow a rigid system. When he is allowed to call plays, make more line calls, and in general control all aspects of the offense, the Steelers score lots of points.

How is this not an obvious observation to all Steeler fans that watch the games?:noidea:

lloydwoodson
01-03-2013, 05:29 PM
Actually, most of the early part of the season was Ben bailing out Haley on third down after bad play calling on the first two downs.

And the most important stat: 8-8.

I think it is very telling of the mentality of blind Ben supporters that they provide no explanation of their opinions.

While others have acknowledged the need for "dink and dunk" because we have not had an effective running game- and pointed out that the Steelers starting RB was injured this year as were many OL, the inconsistent play of the WRs especially Wallace the team's best deep threat, the fact that Haley was offensive coordinator in one of the most effective passing attacks ever (2008 Cards being one of the 5 teams all-time that have had 3 1000 yard receivers), and the fact that Roethlisberger's offenses have scored under 24 points per game in 8 of his 9 seasons...

Ben's supporters have retorts like "8-8... 4th quarter comeback... best Steelers QB ever... Neil ODonnell... "dink and dunk"... ball control offense."

Unable to compose detailed summaries of observations they have made while watching games, the best defense Ben's fanboys can make for him are childish utterances of two sentences or less.

GoFor7
01-03-2013, 05:32 PM
I think it is very telling of the mentality of blind Ben supporters that they provide no explanation of their opinions.

While others have acknowledged the need for "dink and dunk" because we have not had an effective running game- and pointed out that the Steelers starting RB was injured this year as were many OL, the inconsistent play of the WRs especially Wallace the team's best deep threat, the fact that Haley was offensive coordinator in one of the most effective passing attacks ever (2008 Cards being one of the 5 teams all-time that have had 3 1000 yard receivers), and the fact that Roethlisberger's offenses have scored under 24 points per game in 8 of his 9 seasons...

Ben's supporters have retorts like "8-8... 4th quarter comeback... best Steelers QB ever... Neil ODonnell... "dink and dunk"... ball control offense."

Unable to compose detailed summaries of observations they have made while watching games, the best defense Ben's fanboys can make for him are childish utterances of two sentences or less.

You mean like all my explanations about how Brady and Manning's teams use a lot of no huddle, don't dumb them down fretting over TOP, and try to win the game early?

Nice try. :coffee:

lloydwoodson
01-03-2013, 06:12 PM
You mean like all my explanations about how Brady and Manning's teams use a lot of no huddle, don't dumb them down fretting over TOP, and try to win the game early?

Nice try. :coffee:

No you did not illustrate those points even one time.

You said that other teams do those things. You have not shown other teams do those things.

Nice try. :coffee:

I agree that Ben runs a great 2 minute drill... it is just everything else he needs to work on.

If you ran a 2 minute drill all the time the team's TOP would be 20 minutes a game and the defense would get torched.

The coaching staff did a SUPERB job in 2012 of making sure the Steelers have the last possession of the first half week in and week out. They put Ben in the best possible spot to do what he does best, and make sure the other team can not strike back.

It is just everything else he has to work on.

"Steelers need to run 2 minute drills on every possession because Ben said so! It's what the Patriots do when they arent running the ball more than anyone else in the league!"

lloydwoodson
01-03-2013, 06:20 PM
You mean like all my explanations about how Brady and Manning's teams use a lot of no huddle, don't dumb them down fretting over TOP, and try to win the game early?

Nice try. :coffee:

Here is a nice stat to counter the "try to win the game early" comment that is absolute GARBAGE.

1st Half Points/Game

1New England 18.1
17 Denver 11.4
19 Pittsburgh 10.7

2nd Half Points/Game

1 Denver 18.7
2 New England 16.5
22 Pittsburgh 10.1

Those damn Broncos letting Peyton outscore Ben by 0.7 points in the first half makes all the difference! God damn coaching staff!

I credit the Pats offensive success to Josh McDaniels for going from worst to best offensive coordinator in the NFL by switching from the Rams to the Pats. McDaniels really makes that offense run. Brady would be nothing without McDaniels. <<< I know the sarcasm is too obvious but do you remember the 2005 season when the Pats didn't even have an OC and finished 7th in the NFL in offense. Good times. Guess an OC is overrated.

One thing an OC is good for is taking blame though! What would Brady have done if his offense hadn't finished 7th w/o an OC?! Who would be the fall guy??? The horror!!!

teegre
01-03-2013, 08:44 PM
And the most important stat: 8-8.

I have a serious question for you.

Numerous people have mentioned the following three things to you:
1. Before BB's injury, the Steelers were 6-3.
2. Two losses came when BB was out of the line-up.
3. Three losses came when BB looked like he was playing injured (rendering him ineffective).

Yet, you keep mentioning 8-8.

QUESTION:
Do you truly think that BB being out didn't matter???

Do you really think that Byron & Charlie are equivalent to BB???

Do you honestly think that BB's injury had nothing to do with those three losses upon his return?

Because, you keep bringing up 8-8... as if those three things do not matter.

So... one can only assume that YOU think that BB is not better than Byron and/or Charlie.

I know you'll try to spin this with some rhetoric about "Art II being a lawyer" or "the team was playing scared" or "BB is handcuffed for 58 minutes"...
...but, since you keep saying that the aforementioned three factors had NO effect on the record, well, one can only assume that YOU are not a fan of BB... (because, if you were, then you would realize that his absence from the line-up and/or his playing hurt might have contributed to those last five losses).

Whereas, as it is, by deductive reasoning, it appears that you think BB is interchangeable with Byron & Charlie... whereas, many of us do not think those two are anywhere near as good as BB... and thus, WE realize that BB being out/injured ABSOLUTELY contributed to those last five losses!!!

GoFor7
01-03-2013, 09:14 PM
No you did not illustrate those points even one time.

You said that other teams do those things. You have not shown other teams do those things.

Nice try. :coffee:

Well, if you have trouble reading and don't watch other games I can't really help you.

I agree that Ben runs a great 2 minute drill... it is just everything else he needs to work on.

If you ran a 2 minute drill all the time the team's TOP would be 20 minutes a game and the defense would get torched.

And the defense has still found ways to get torched even when the offense owns TOP (see majority of Patriots vs Steelers games). If that's the case, might as well score as much as possible.

The coaching staff did a SUPERB job in 2012 of making sure the Steelers have the last possession of the first half week in and week out. They put Ben in the best possible spot to do what he does best, and make sure the other team can not strike back.

It is just everything else he has to work on.

8-8. Nothing "superb" about that. They need to allow Ben to win the game early instead of dicking around waiting until the end of the game.

"Steelers need to run 2 minute drills on every possession because Ben said so! It's what the Patriots do when they arent running the ball more than anyone else in the league!"

Actually, teams like the Broncos and Patriots run the ball out of no-huddle, and they aren't calling for RUTMs every first down. Maybe the Steelers should be aware of that if they want to improve the running game.

I have a serious question for you.

Numerous people have mentioned the following three things to you:
1. Before BB's injury, the Steelers were 6-3.
2. Two losses came when BB was out of the line-up.
3. Three losses came when BB looked like he was playing injured (rendering him ineffective).

Yet, you keep mentioning 8-8.

QUESTION:
Do you truly think that BB being out didn't matter???

Do you really think that Byron & Charlie are equivalent to BB???

Do you honestly think that BB's injury had nothing to do with those three losses upon his return?

Because, you keep bringing up 8-8... as if those three things do not matter.

So... one can only assume that YOU think that BB is not better than Byron and/or Charlie.

I know you'll try to spin this with some rhetoric about "Art II being a lawyer" or "the team was playing scared" or "BB is handcuffed for 58 minutes"...
...but, since you keep saying that the aforementioned three factors had NO effect on the record, well, one can only assume that YOU are not a fan of BB... (because, if you were, then you would realize that his absence from the line-up and/or his playing hurt might have contributed to those last five losses).

Whereas, as it is, by deductive reasoning, it appears that you think BB is interchangeable with Byron & Charlie... whereas, many of us do not think those two are anywhere near as good as BB... and thus, WE realize that BB being out/injured ABSOLUTELY contributed to those last five losses!!!

I don't deny Ben's injury affected the Steelers during that 3 game stretch, and that him being healthy probably would've made Haley look good. However, I also acknowledge the Steelers still had chances to win those games in the second half, and the play calling in those situations were atrocious.

teegre
01-03-2013, 10:08 PM
8-8. Nothing "superb" about that.

I don't deny Ben's injury affected the Steelers during that 3 game stretch, and that him being healthy probably would've made Haley look good. However, I also acknowledge the Steelers still had chances to win those games in the second half, and the play calling in those situations were atrocious.

So, again, why do you keep saying "8-8"???

Unless your answer is that you really do indeed think that Byron & Charlie are equivalent to BB. In which case, you should realize that repeatedly citing the 8-8 record makes YOU sound like YOU do not value BB; it sounds like you are ignoring the fact of him missing three games & being injured for four other games.

You can try (once again) to spin this into a play-calling and/or an ownership issue... but, the truth is that BB being injured did in fact create the 2-5 record at the end if the season.

I will repeat this:
When WE read your posts of "8-8", WE assume that YOU do not think that BB is any better than Byron and/or Charlie.

Get it yet?

Probably not. I'm sure I'll see you post "8-8"... and WE will all know the truth about you: you don't actually value BB as a QB.

GoFor7
01-03-2013, 10:18 PM
So, again, why do you keep saying "8-8"???

Because there's nothing good about 8-8...

Unless your answer is that you really do indeed think that Byron & Charlie are equivalent to BB. In which case, you should realize that repeatedly citing the 8-8 record makes YOU sound like YOU do not value BB; it sounds like you are ignoring the fact of him missing three games & being injured for four other games.

You can try (once again) to spin this into a play-calling and/or an ownership issue... but, the truth is that BB being injured did in fact create the 2-5 record at the end if the season.

So you don't think teams finally caught onto the fact the Steelers were only taking short passes and adjusted, while the Steelers did not? My point is when you play close to the vest for much of the game, Ben won't always bail the team out at the end. If you like that kind of football, I can't change your philosophies. Just don't expect the offense to put up many points.

I will repeat this:
When WE read your posts of "8-8", WE assume that YOU do not think that BB is any better than Byron and/or Charlie.

Get it yet?

Probably not. I'm sure I'll see you post "8-8"... and WE will all know the truth about you: you don't actually value BB as a QB.

I think Ben is treated by the team as if he's like Leftwich or Batch - that is until the last two minutes when they need him to bail them out from their own stubbornness. When you play that way, the game is always up for grabs. 8-8 is an appropriate record for such a style.

Word is the Steelers won't be upset if Haley takes the job in Arizona. Maybe I'm not the only one who isn't impressed with this offense.

teegre
01-03-2013, 10:27 PM
Gofor7

Remember...

YOU aver that 8-8 is the most important statistic.

So, let's focus on that.

I am adamant that the most critical person on that offense is BB. AND, when he was healthy, the team was 6-3; when he was sidelined or injured, the team was 2-5. In turn, by my estimation, I say that the correlation between the 2-5 record and not having BB is pretty freakin' "HIGH."

As in: NO other factor matters.

Play calling. Who cares? The same plays got 6-3.

Ownership. Who cares? Same "meddling" (your words) owners during the first nine games.

Hmmm... what's the difference? Oh, not having BB!!!

The only factor that matters is having a healthy BB (6-3) versus not having a healthy BB (2-5).

But, please, keep saying "8-8"... and ignoring the importance of BB.

lloydwoodson
01-03-2013, 10:42 PM
I agree with teegre.

Roethlisberger is the best improvisational quarterback ever and the best in the 2 minute drill ever and somehow him being out/hurt does not hurt the Steelers chance to win. That is a real slap in the face to Roethlisberger.

I will get on Roethlisberger as much as the next guy for his inconsistency and refusal to buy into team concepts but his playmaking ability is extraordinary and he certainly gives the Steelers the best chance to win.

Putting this season on Haley and not on Ben's injury is an injustice to us all!

Shame on you GoFor7!

GoFor7
01-04-2013, 11:43 AM
Gofor7

Remember...

YOU aver that 8-8 is the most important statistic.

So, let's focus on that.

I am adamant that the most critical person on that offense is BB. AND, when he was healthy, the team was 6-3; when he was sidelined or injured, the team was 2-5. In turn, by my estimation, I say that the correlation between the 2-5 record and not having BB is pretty freakin' "HIGH."

As in: NO other factor matters.

Play calling. Who cares? The same plays got 6-3.

Ownership. Who cares? Same "meddling" (your words) owners during the first nine games.

Hmmm... what's the difference? Oh, not having BB!!!

The only factor that matters is having a healthy BB (6-3) versus not having a healthy BB (2-5).

But, please, keep saying "8-8"... and ignoring the importance of BB.

So in that case you admit Ben just made Haley look good with his play calling?

Thanks for proving my point.

Riddle_Of_Steel
01-04-2013, 12:07 PM
I agree with teegre.

Roethlisberger is the best improvisational quarterback ever and the best in the 2 minute drill ever and somehow him being out/hurt does not hurt the Steelers chance to win. That is a real slap in the face to Roethlisberger.

I will get on Roethlisberger as much as the next guy for his inconsistency and refusal to buy into team concepts but his playmaking ability is extraordinary and he certainly gives the Steelers the best chance to win.

Putting this season on Haley and not on Ben's injury is an injustice to us all!

Shame on you GoFor7!

^^^ This (minus the shame on you-- everyone has an opinion).

Riddle_Of_Steel
01-04-2013, 12:09 PM
So in that case you admit Ben just made Haley look good with his play calling?

Thanks for proving my point.

No, the playcaling that was working during our 6-3 stretch was all Haley. We started losing when Ben got hurt, had a new baby, and starting doing his sandlot thing behind a smashed up Oline.

Also, we lost two games due to the defense missing 3 or 4 of our starting CBs. That has nothing to do with Haley. His offense did what it could for the defense-- it kept it fresh.

teegre
01-04-2013, 01:01 PM
So in that case you admit Ben just made Haley look good with his play calling?

Thanks for proving my point.

If any OC calls a play for a healthy BB and then calls that same play for an INJURED BB... there is going to be a difference in the execution of those plays. Be it Arians (the San Fran game last year) or Haley (the last seven games this year).

But, again, you apparently see no difference between an injured BB and a healthy BB. Likewise, you see no difference between BB and Byron/Charlie.

Q: So, who would you rather have than BB: Byron or Charlie? Because, as it is now, you apparently felt hat there is no difference between the three.

torpedoshell31
01-04-2013, 03:02 PM
Speaking of Ben, I just saw on ESPN the top rated QB's for the last 5 years in games played below the freezing mark. Ben had the 4th highest QBR. (Aaron Rogers was first)

plenewken
01-04-2013, 04:46 PM
Speaking of Ben, I just saw on ESPN the top rated QB's for the last 5 years in games played below the freezing mark.

Sh*t. No wonder he didn't play well in the 3 SBs he played. They were all indoors.
Let's hope he plays one in Green Bay and one in Alaska before the end of his career. :rofl:

torpedoshell31
01-04-2013, 06:13 PM
Sh*t. No wonder he didn't play well in the 3 SBs he played. They were all indoors.
Let's hope he plays one in Green Bay and one in Alaska before the end of his career. :rofl:

Maybe Goodell's European expansion will get us an away game in Iceland.

lloydwoodson
01-04-2013, 07:50 PM
Maybe Goodell's European expansion will get us an away game in Iceland.

Steeler Nation will have to travel.

I will bring my Fast Wille Parka.