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lloydwoodson
12-31-2012, 12:54 AM
You know, I like Terry. He seems like a really good guy. But I have a problem.

Pittsburgh's reputation as being hard on quarterbacks is undeserved largely because of the myth that Bradshaw was run out of Pittsburgh.

Bradshaw was a "nice country boy" and a "mama's boy" in his own words. He came from a small town, and went to a small high school. Then he went to a small college, Louisiana Tech University.

Bradshaw's first taste of media and public attention did not occur until 1970 when he was drafted with the Pittsburgh Steelers' first pick. Bradshaw absolutely hated the attention and prayed to God that he would be out of Pittsburgh before he even won a superbowl with them.

Based on Bradshaw's personality and the nature of fans to criticize anything but superbowl wins, it is safe to assume that Bradshaw would have hated playing in any NFL city. By his own admission Bradshaw hated the Pittsburgh fans by the time he won a superbowl and was unaffected when he was heaped with praise.

This myth is harmful to analyzing current quarterbacks. The truth is that Pittsburgh fans are not any harder on players than any other team. The truth is that every NFL player is subject to media scrutiny and that some have a hard time handling the pressure. Are New Orleans and Miami hard on running backs? Ricky Williams might think so. Is San Diego hard on quarterbacks? Absolutely, according to Ryan Leaf.

The point is that harsh criticism is necessary in order to evaluate the Steelers subjectively. I hope we can all agree that this myth needs to be put to rest so we can fairly discuss the real cause of the Steelers' anemic offense over the last decade- Ben Roethlisberger.

Thanks for reading. :applaudit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RktnJ_hxYSM

SteelersCanada
12-31-2012, 01:07 AM
I'd say we're definitely harder on our coaches and players - more specifically Quarterbacks - than most other teams. If you're looking for proof you don't have to go any further than these very boards. We're calling for the heads of Mike Tomlin and Ben Roethlisberger - a Super Bowl winning coach and two-time winning Quarterback because of a single down season that can be excused with the amount of injuries we suffered. There are about 28 - 30 teams that would trade and cut their quarterback and head coach, respectively, if these two became available without blinking an eye.

We want greatness. We expect it. How many other teams, realistically, can say 'Super Bowl or bust' in this league right now? Sure, all teams want the Lombardi, but how many teams' fanbases expect it every year and when we don't get it, it's regarded as a disappointing season? We're a spoiled bunch here as Pittsburgh fans and I think Ben takes way more heat than Terry ever did in Pittsburgh. Granted, some of his off-field choices have been questionable and he brought a lot of that heat on himself, but a lot of it is just us being frustrated fans and expecting greatness.

lloydwoodson
12-31-2012, 01:12 AM
I'd say we're definitely harder on our coaches and players - more specifically Quarterbacks - than most other teams. If you're looking for proof you don't have to go any further than these very boards. We're calling for the heads of Mike Tomlin and Ben Roethlisberger - a Super Bowl winning coach and two-time winning Quarterback because of a single down season that can be excused with the amount of injuries we suffered. There are about 28 - 30 teams that would trade and cut their quarterback and head coach, respectively, if these two became available without blinking an eye.

We want greatness. We expect it. How many other teams, realistically, can say 'Super Bowl or bust' in this league right now? Sure, all teams want the Lombardi, but how many teams' fanbases expect it every year and when we don't get it, it's regarded as a disappointing season? We're a spoiled bunch here as Pittsburgh fans and I think Ben takes way more heat than Terry ever did in Pittsburgh. Granted, some of his off-field choices have been questionable and he brought a lot of that heat on himself, but a lot of it is just us being frustrated fans and expecting greatness.

Honestly, I think every team is expected to win it all every year. This is why the Raiders have a new HC every year; why the Niners had different OC for Alex Smith 4 or 5 years in a row; why I expect Jerry Jones to fire Jason Garrett or Tony Romo after this season etc.

I agree that Steelers fans are a spoiled bunch, myself included, but it is amazing to me how blind people are to Roethlisberger's innumerable faults. Seems to me the fans get a whipping boy (this year Wallace or Mendenhall) and stick to him.

Realistically, Woodley should have gotten more heat than anyone. At least we know Harrison is old coming off back/knee surgery.

Ricco Suavez
12-31-2012, 12:38 PM
Bradshaw could not spell CAT if they spotted him the C and the A. Hanratty and Gillom were both touted as better QBs then TB. Just a couple of he sentiments of the time. Terry did not put up outstanding numbers, his defense was arguably the greatest ever, his OL was loaded with HOFers, and his RBs and Wrs were some of the all time best, and he received more than his share of criticism. Terry was not truly loved til he was gone and then his career was appreciated by the media and the fans. I still love to see video when he threw the long ball,(the strongest part of his game IMO) it was a thing of beauty.

TRH
12-31-2012, 12:52 PM
Bradshaw was pretty much hated and loathed here when he played - even after 4 SB wins. Still hated, he was. It was only after he retired, that he started to become "legend" in Pittsburgh and accepted.

AndyWitmyer
12-31-2012, 04:28 PM
Good point about Bradshaw. Ben is more than willing to take the burden of blame upon himself (which I admire) - but only when he's the one putting himself under scrutiny. I love Ben - I think that's obvious - but I don't think he's very good at accepting criticism when it comes from others. Sure, he'll criticize himself - but, when you look at "verbally tougher" OCs like Haley and Whiz, and their "relationship" with Ben, I think the proof is in the pudding.

Ben loved Arians bc the dude was a pushover who was more than willing to let Ben be Ben. Obviously, this wasn't always a bad thing - Ben had some great seasons under Arians - but, also some pretty mediocre ones. He had an excellent start with Whiz, but not always (2006 anyone?) - with just one season under Haley, Ben started out great but faltered post-injury midseason.

I think the point I'm trying to make here is that Ben is a great QB, but like Terry - he comes with his own set of flaws. And one of them is not taking constructive criticism as professionally as he should. He's, overall, a top-notch QB regardless of whoever's calling the plays - but he can be a real pr*ck towards anyone who doesn't want to be "best buds"...and that shouldn't be Haley (or any other OC's job, for that matter).

VictoryFormation
12-31-2012, 06:16 PM
I don't think Pittsburgh was unduly harsh on Terry Bradshaw when he first came into the league. He might have perceived it that way, but it was not about him being stupid, or Southern. Don't forget, he was the much anticipated number one pick for the Steelers in 1970. People had high expectations for him as soon as he joined the team. He was slow to develop as a quarterback. And, it looked like he was a flop, a wasted pick. Terry Hanratty, and Joe Gilliam beat him out for the starting job. Bradshaw didn't come up quickly like Ben Roethlisberger did. Bradshaw didn't get good until he was in the league 5 years. And, Bradshaw didn't mention that by the late 1970's, he had 59,000 people standing on their feet, chanting Bradshaw when he was on the field at Three Rivers.

jiminpa
12-31-2012, 07:22 PM
Bradshaw was pretty much hated and loathed here when he played - even after 4 SB wins. Still hated, he was. It was only after he retired, that he started to become "legend" in Pittsburgh and accepted.Then who was it wearing all those Steeler logo'd number 12 jerseys in the 70's?

Cherinko
12-31-2012, 08:46 PM
the real cause of the Steelers' anemic offense over the last decade- Ben Roethlisberger.

You are fulfilling Pittsburgh's reputation for being hard on quarterbacks. If you think our offense is anemic, how do you think we'd fare taking out the 9th highest rated passer in NFL history? Fans of other teams browsing these boards must see comments like this and look at them in shock and disbelief..

Edman
12-31-2012, 09:06 PM
Ben R was treated as a king of kings in Pittsburgh since his Rookie Year. Since the beginning Pittsburgh has adopted Ben as their native son. So don't feed me any of that garbage that Ben is mistreated here.

Since Ben was drafted, fans have constantly raked other players and coaches over the coals for the team's shortcomings. Everyone except him. Only few had the balls and the guts to say "Hey, Ben. This isn't cool." They were labeled as trolls and haters, even when they have a legitimate point. Hell, it happens on this very board.

Those who are holding Ben accountable are called names and merely point the finger at someone else. It's not Ben's fault. It's the Coaches. It's the Defense. It's the receivers. It's the O-Line. It's the RB's. It's injuries. It's the Owners. The Planets aren't aligned properly. Everyone has been held accountable, except Ben.

OX1947
12-31-2012, 09:21 PM
Terry Bradshaw was an immature, sensitive, depression case. Fans reacting to things is one thing, but Chuck Noll reacting makes it credible. Who did Chuck Noll ride during his 20+ years in Pittsburgh? Only one I know is Terry Bradshaw. Bradshaw was the only crackle jack in a group of reserved, mild mannered professionals, with the exception of psychos like Lambert and Joe Greene. Mel Blount, Swann, Stallworth, Butler, Harris, Bleier, Ham, Shell, etc etc were all cut from the same fabric. Even the ones who had style like LC and Ernie Holmes, they were still reserved and calm like thier teammates. All guys that followed Chuck Noll. Chuck Noll didnt like RA RA crap. He never rested on his laurals. And when you see interviews with guys like Butler or Blount during those years, even after Super Bowl wins, they were saying, we need to get back to work and get another one.

Terry wanted to have fun, I get it. But he was on a team lead by an emperor who believe in dominance at every moment of every day. Terry figured it out eventually, he earned and deserves everything.

lloydwoodson
12-31-2012, 09:26 PM
.

You are fulfilling Pittsburgh's reputation for being hard on quarterbacks. If you think our offense is anemic, how do you think we'd fare taking out the 9th highest rated passer in NFL history? Fans of other teams browsing these boards must see comments like this and look at them in shock and disbelief..

I don't judge qbs by their individual stats. I judge qbs by the production of the offenses they run. Audibles at the line, clock management, protection schemes etc. are not reflected in stats.

A good qb is the LEADER and PART of an offense that puts a lot of points on the board. Period.

Ricco Suavez
12-31-2012, 09:32 PM
I must be all wrong, here I was judging players by if they helped my team win SBs. Cant put up any numbers to please the masses, only wins count, but if wins aren't enough they it must be about the points. Which is it. Wins, points, Stats, playoff wins, SB wins, Comeback wins, which is it?:banging:

GoFor7
12-31-2012, 09:52 PM
I must be all wrong, here I was judging players by if they helped my team win SBs. Cant put up any numbers to please the masses, only wins count, but if wins aren't enough they it must be about the points. Which is it. Wins, points, Stats, playoff wins, SB wins, Comeback wins, which is it?:banging:

Whichever stats make the star QB look bad...

lloydwoodson
12-31-2012, 09:55 PM
I must be all wrong, here I was judging players by if they helped my team win SBs. Cant put up any numbers to please the masses, only wins count, but if wins aren't enough they it must be about the points. Which is it. Wins, points, Stats, playoff wins, SB wins, Comeback wins, which is it?:banging:

I want wins. I want Roethlisberger reined in just as Haley is doing. I want an offense that relies more on short passes. The Steelers choose passing plays a higher percentage of the time than the Pats, Broncos or Packers. The teams with the elite quarterbacks still run responsible offenses that try to move the chains without turning the ball over. The Pats offense is the best in the league and is all short passes.

The consensus on these boards seems to be that the offense is faltering because Ben isn't throwing enough. It is an absurd position. The offense is faltering due to injuries and Ben's regression. At the beginning of the season Ben was releasing the ball quickly. After he got hurt he was forcing plays and holding onto the ball. When Ben is stressed he tries to do too much. Period.

The 6 teams who threw the ball the most are out of the playoffs. 4 of the 5 teams who ran the most are in the playoffs. The Niners only pass 47% of the time and they were my choice to win the superbowl until they started a qb controversy.

Get back to Steelers football! Steelers football will ALWAYS be establish the run/stop the run. Period! How insane to hear people criticize the Steelers for lack of identity! There is ONE Steelers identity and it was established by Franco Harris, Joe Greene, Jack Lambert, Jerome Bettis, Hines Ward etc.

Even our WRs hit! That is the Steelers way!

lloydwoodson
12-31-2012, 09:57 PM
Whichever stats make the star QB look bad...

This guy said Roethlisberger is better than Brees. Ignore everything he says on any subject.

Ricco Suavez
12-31-2012, 10:01 PM
Whichever stats make the star QB look bad...

More like whatever you can keep repeating enough will sound like the truth.

GoFor7
12-31-2012, 10:03 PM
[QUOTE]I want wins. I want Roethlisberger reined in just as Haley is doing. I want an offense that relies more on short passes. The Steelers choose passing plays a higher percentage of the time than the Pats, Broncos or Packers. The teams with the elite quarterbacks still run responsible offenses that try to move the chains without turning the ball over. The Pats offense is the best in the league and is all short passes.

Oh please. Stop comparing the Steelers' offense to those offenses. The Steelers don't want to be like them. Those teams try to score and win the game early, the Steelers just try to sit on the ball and hope Ben can pull a miracle out of his ass in the last two minutes. If you want long possessions and ball control, this offense will not put up points. And with Haley's terrible play calling, Brady and Manning would get killed dealing with all those 3rd & longs.

The consensus on these boards seems to be that the offense is faltering because Ben isn't throwing enough. It is an absurd position. The offense is faltering due to injuries and Ben's regression. At the beginning of the season Ben was releasing the ball quickly. After he got hurt he was forcing plays and holding onto the ball. When Ben is stressed he tries to do too much. Period.

Learn to read. The consensus was they need to take more shots down field to stretch the field. Other teams caught onto the fact the Steelers were just playing Marty ball and Haley did nothing to adjust.

The 6 teams who threw the ball the most are out of the playoffs. 4 of the 5 teams who ran the most are in the playoffs. The Niners only pass 47% of the time and they were my choice to win the superbowl until they started a qb controversy.

The 49ers weren't going to win with Alex Smith for the same reason the Steelers didn't win anything in the 90's.

Get back to Steelers football! Steelers football will ALWAYS be establish the run/stop the run. Period! How insane to hear people criticize the Steelers for lack of identity! There is ONE Steelers identity and it was established by Franco Harris, Joe Greene, Jack Lambert, Jerome Bettis, Hines Ward etc.

Even our WRs hit! That is the Steelers way!

Then don't bitch when the offense doesn't put up points like the Patriots and Broncos. The Steelers want to remain a defensive team, and thus the offense's top priority will not be to score, but to possess.

Ricco Suavez
12-31-2012, 10:15 PM
I want wins. I want Roethlisberger reined in just as Haley is doing. I want an offense that relies more on short passes. The Steelers choose passing plays a higher percentage of the time than the Pats, Broncos or Packers. The teams with the elite quarterbacks still run responsible offenses that try to move the chains without turning the ball over. The Pats offense is the best in the league and is all short passes.

The consensus on these boards seems to be that the offense is faltering because Ben isn't throwing enough. It is an absurd position. The offense is faltering due to injuries and Ben's regression. At the beginning of the season Ben was releasing the ball quickly. After he got hurt he was forcing plays and holding onto the ball. When Ben is stressed he tries to do too much. Period.

The 6 teams who threw the ball the most are out of the playoffs. 4 of the 5 teams who ran the most are in the playoffs. The Niners only pass 47% of the time and they were my choice to win the superbowl until they started a qb controversy.

Get back to Steelers football! Steelers football will ALWAYS be establish the run/stop the run. Period! How insane to hear people criticize the Steelers for lack of identity! There is ONE Steelers identity and it was established by Franco Harris, Joe Greene, Jack Lambert, Jerome Bettis, Hines Ward etc.

Even our WRs hit! That is the Steelers way!

Wake up and smell the coffee, its 2012, soon to be 2013, Please name the six teams that passed the ball the most, and while you do I will name Atlanta 615, Colts 628, Patriots 641, Broncos 588, Surprise they have QBs that you are in love with. But now you want the run, OK I would like it too, just how could we have run better? We do not have a Gore like SF, or a AP like the Vikings, or even a rookie combination like RGIII and Morris. You want Steeler ball, no surprise to me since you grew up during the Cowher years, guess what there is no Bettis here, there is no great Oline yet. We ran the ball at an anemic rate, but hey I understand its our QB that is holding back the run game but not the guy designing the plays. BTW this year there may be more run oriented teams but last years SB had the two most prolific passing teams as far as attempts.

lloydwoodson
12-31-2012, 10:24 PM
[QUOTE=lloydwoodson;1072721]

Stop comparing the Steelers' offense to those offenses.

Learn to read. The consensus was they need to take more shots down field to stretch the field. Other teams caught onto the fact the Steelers were just playing Marty ball and Haley did nothing to adjust.

Then don't bitch when the offense doesn't put up points like the Patriots and Broncos. The Steelers want to remain a defensive team, and thus the offense's top priority will not be to score, but to possess.

So in your fantasy world you say that Ben is better than Brees and is an elite, top 5 qb; but I am not allowed to compare the offensive production of those teams.

Who should the Steelers take shots down the field to? Mike "I forgot how to catch some time last year" Wallace isn't a viable option at this point. Brown and Sanders run their 5-15 yard routes as is their strength. Somehow Haley's offense still has the second most 20+ yard pass plays in the entire league when Ben gets injured. So what is your problem with the playcalling????? How did the Steelers manage to get so many 20+ yard pass plays without trying?????

Marty ball is smart football. Marty had top 10 scoring offenses in 10 of his 21 seasons as a head coach. Marty only had 2 losing seasons as a head coach. Marty is the 6th winningest coach in NFL history and he did it mostly with the Browns and the Chiefs. "Didn't win superbowls!!! Blah blah blah!!!" is coming. I know that. I guess that's what he gets for playing in an era dominated by the NFC. How many superbowls did Cowher win in the 90s? Who do you think qualifies as a legitimate superpower NFL team nowadays?

The Steelers under Arians were TRYING to put up points like the Colts and Pats - THAT IS WHY ARIANS STOLE THEIR EMPTY BACKFIELD OFFENSES AND WR SCREENS. THAT IS THE ENTIRE POINT!!! IT DID NOT WORK!!! The Steelers under Arians tried to change their entire identity as a team - the Rooneys are now trying to change it back.

It is Steelers team, decades of tradition, decades of empirical knowledge, playing to the personnel on the team vs let Ben be Ben and pretend he is elite.

The Rooneys ARE trying to make Ben be Ben. They drafted him to be what he is- a dropback quarterback who is excellent at playaction/improvising not a shotgun superstar.

The Steelers organization knows what Ben is even if you don't.

Ricco Suavez
12-31-2012, 10:31 PM
Marty and Cowher both coached their last game in 2006, maybe they seen the writing on the wall and you have yet to get the memo. It is the new NFL, Goodell Ball not Marty Ball. Like Cowherd says adapt or die.

GoFor7
12-31-2012, 10:38 PM
Marty and Cowher both coached their last game in 2006, maybe they seen the writing on the wall and you have yet to get the memo. It is the new NFL, Goodell Ball not Marty Ball. Like Cowherd says adapt or die.

To be honest, I don't think Cowher would be as conservative now as he was when he was head coach. He seems to understand that Ben is the offense's best weapon and that they are built as a passing team. Hell, even an old school guy like Jerome Bettis realizes this isn't the team that Art Rooney II wants it to be.

lloydwoodson
12-31-2012, 11:04 PM
Wake up and smell the coffee, its 2012, soon to be 2013, Please name the six teams that passed the ball the most, and while you do I will name Atlanta 615, Colts 628, Patriots 641, Broncos 588, Surprise they have QBs that you are in love with. But now you want the run, OK I would like it too, just how could we have run better? We do not have a Gore like SF, or a AP like the Vikings, or even a rookie combination like RGIII and Morris. You want Steeler ball, no surprise to me since you grew up during the Cowher years, guess what there is no Bettis here, there is no great Oline yet. We ran the ball at an anemic rate, but hey I understand its our QB that is holding back the run game but not the guy designing the plays. BTW this year there may be more run oriented teams but last years SB had the two most prolific passing teams as far as attempts.

The Packers are 15th in pass play %, the Pats and Broncos are 20th and 21st respectively. The Steelers are 13th. Do the other teams get more attempts? Sure because they are actually able to sustain drives. The Steelers run more passing plays per attempt than the teams that actually have an elite qb THE DIFFERENCE IS THE OTHER QBS ACTUALLY SUSTAIN DRIVES. Needed to point out my main point since reading comprehension is low on this board.

The Steelers have not had a solid run game since Whisenhunt left. Arians and Tomlin decided to "arm Ben with weapons." The entire Steeler philosophy has been hijacked to appease Ben. They only last year started focusing on the OL.

If Mendenhall had been healthy this year and Tomlin had not engaged in a pissing match with him; the Steelers would have had a viable rushing attack. "Haley didn't have a ground game with 6th round picks running behind an inexperienced line- get rid of Haley!"

lloydwoodson
12-31-2012, 11:09 PM
Marty and Cowher both coached their last game in 2006, maybe they seen the writing on the wall and you have yet to get the memo. It is the new NFL, Goodell Ball not Marty Ball. Like Cowherd says adapt or die.

Guess what year the NFL's single game passing record was set?

1951 by Norm Van Brocklin.

Take your "new NFL" talking points that you got from ESPN and NFL websites and cram them!!!!

Football is football. Parts of the game become popular cyclically. Sure it is easier now to pass in the NFL but that doesn't mean the sound practices of decades of football knowledge should be overlooked.

OX1947
12-31-2012, 11:10 PM
Guess what year the NFL's single game passing record was set?

1951 by Norm Van Brocklin.

Take your "new NFL" talking points that you got from ESPN and NFL websites and cram them!!!!

Football is football. Parts of the game become popular cyclically. Sure it is easier now to pass in the NFL but that doesn't mean the sound practices of decades of football knowledge should be overlooked.

OH SNAP

lloydwoodson
12-31-2012, 11:21 PM
To be honest, I don't think Cowher would be as conservative now as he was when he was head coach. He seems to understand that Ben is the offense's best weapon and that they are built as a passing team. Hell, even an old school guy like Jerome Bettis realizes this isn't the team that Art Rooney II wants it to be.

More of the same. Ben is the ultimate weapon! Where is Mike Martz? Ben's offense scored more than 23 ppg one time in his career! He is the best ever! Throw a hundred times a game! Shotgun, hurry-up offenses only! :tt04:

Every coach adapts his offense or defense to best suit the abilities of the players he has. The Steelers front office has been doing this well for decades. This is why when I see them making an effort to rein Ben in and make the offense more balanced I know they are on the right track.

The Steelers coaches and front office know who Ben is even if you don't.

GoFor7
12-31-2012, 11:33 PM
More of the same. Ben is the ultimate weapon! Where is Mike Martz? Ben's offense scored more than 23 ppg one time in his career! He is the best ever! Throw a hundred times a game! Shotgun, hurry-up offenses only! :tt04:

Every coach adapts his offense or defense to best suit the abilities of the players he has. The Steelers front office has been doing this well for decades. This is why when I see them making an effort to rein Ben in and make the offense more balanced I know they are on the right track.

The Steelers coaches and front office know who Ben is even if you don't.

And the Steelers have been known to be very stubborn and sometimes value being right over winning. Lets take the ball out of Ben's hands and put it in the hands of some no-name RB! Gotta be like the old Steelers! Lets do more run, run, pass! That worked so well this season!

And lets not give Artie credit just because he shares his father's last name.

4xSBChamps
12-31-2012, 11:47 PM
Take your "new NFL" talking points that you got from ESPN and NFL websites and cram them!!!!

Football is football. Parts of the game become popular cyclically. Sure it is easier now to pass in the NFL but that doesn't mean the sound practices of decades of football knowledge should be overlooked.

"... suspend lloydwoodson...

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y272/Glensgages/football/Goodellonthephone.jpg

... fine James Harrison $250,000..."

lloydwoodson
01-01-2013, 12:00 AM
And the Steelers have been known to be very stubborn and sometimes value being right over winning. Lets take the ball out of Ben's hands and put it in the hands of some no-name RB! Gotta be like the old Steelers! Lets do more run, run, pass! That worked so well this season!

And lets not give Artie credit just because he shares his father's last name.

Steelers value being right over winning?

Steelers are 195-100 with 2 superbowls since they hired Cowher.

In my mind the Steelers organization believes winning is right.

Not you.

You would rather disparage the ownership of the franchise we all know and love, the same Steelers organization we all grew up watching, just to indulge in some childish dream that Roethlisberger is bigger than the team and wins games by himself.

Please apologize for defaming the Steelers organization.

It is pretty clear you are a Ben fan not a Steelers fan. You know you could cheer for another team and still be a Ben fan. You probably hate every team's organization though- they're all idiots because they never gave up the farm to steal Ben away from Pittsburgh.

Edman
01-01-2013, 12:55 AM
[QUOTE=GoFor7;1072727]

So in your fantasy world you say that Ben is better than Brees and is an elite, top 5 qb; but I am not allowed to compare the offensive production of those teams.

Who should the Steelers take shots down the field to? Mike "I forgot how to catch some time last year" Wallace isn't a viable option at this point. Brown and Sanders run their 5-15 yard routes as is their strength. Somehow Haley's offense still has the second most 20+ yard pass plays in the entire league when Ben gets injured. So what is your problem with the playcalling????? How did the Steelers manage to get so many 20+ yard pass plays without trying?????

Marty ball is smart football. Marty had top 10 scoring offenses in 10 of his 21 seasons as a head coach. Marty only had 2 losing seasons as a head coach. Marty is the 6th winningest coach in NFL history and he did it mostly with the Browns and the Chiefs. "Didn't win superbowls!!! Blah blah blah!!!" is coming. I know that. I guess that's what he gets for playing in an era dominated by the NFC. How many superbowls did Cowher win in the 90s? Who do you think qualifies as a legitimate superpower NFL team nowadays?

The Steelers under Arians were TRYING to put up points like the Colts and Pats - THAT IS WHY ARIANS STOLE THEIR EMPTY BACKFIELD OFFENSES AND WR SCREENS. THAT IS THE ENTIRE POINT!!! IT DID NOT WORK!!! The Steelers under Arians tried to change their entire identity as a team - the Rooneys are now trying to change it back.

It is Steelers team, decades of tradition, decades of empirical knowledge, playing to the personnel on the team vs let Ben be Ben and pretend he is elite.

The Rooneys ARE trying to make Ben be Ben. They drafted him to be what he is- a dropback quarterback who is excellent at playaction/improvising not a shotgun superstar.

The Steelers organization knows what Ben is even if you don't.

Yep.

The Steelers tried to mimic the Colts and Patriots with those WR screens and a downfield passing game under Arians. Except that Arians and Ben forgot that running those kinds of offenses takes a lot of work that Ben (unsurprisingly) was just not willing to put in. Running those offenses requires a lot of responsibility, and as we all know, responsibility isn't one of Ben's strong suits. There were some mutterings out of the Steelers locker room since his rookie years that Ben has a lazy streak about him (first guy out of the locker room), and it's showing through.

Like yeah, Ben wants to throw the ball like the big boys do, but didn't wanna do the little nuances that require it to be truly successful. Like accuracy, timing, rhythm, and more importantly, getting the ball out quickly. Ben was just relying on raw ability and doing nothing else. The results: A constantly mediocre offense that flashed on occasion and did very little else, as the Defense was stuck having to do the dirty work. The Steelers don't sniff Super Bowls XLIII and XLV without the Defense. The first season the offense being absolutely terrible and the latter being mediocre.

Edman
01-01-2013, 01:20 AM
Indulging Ben's childish whims and keeping up the delusion that he's a top-flight QB will result in more seasons like 2012. Ben is not a top-flight QB and it's unlikely he isn't going to be, or simply put, just doesn't want to. He wants to be a good guy carried by the Defense all his career. If Ben doesn't want to take his job seriously, then it's in the Steelers' best interest to restrict his responsibilities so he doesn't drive another season into the ground. Hey guy, I'll call the plays, you drop back and hand off, how about that?

We've seen the same crap every year since 2008. The Steelers have continued the charade and the experiment than Ben is the reason they win, and time after time again, the Defense has had to be called upon rescue the team from the soup, because our QB feels satisfied winning 17-13 and 20-17 contests.

It's all about the Defense here in Pittsburgh, not Ben. If the Defense sucks, the team goes nowhere and wins nothing.

lloydwoodson
01-01-2013, 01:28 AM
[QUOTE=lloydwoodson;1072735]

Yep.

The Steelers tried to mimic the Colts and Patriots with those WR screens and a downfield passing game under Arians. Except that Arians and Ben forgot that running those kinds of offenses takes a lot of work that Ben (unsurprisingly) was just not willing to put in. Running those offenses requires a lot of responsibility, and as we all know, responsibility isn't one of Ben's strong suits. There were some mutterings out of the Steelers locker room since his rookie years that Ben has a lazy streak about him (first guy out of the locker room), and it's showing through.

Like yeah, Ben wants to throw the ball like the big boys do, but didn't wanna do the little nuances that require it to be truly successful. Like accuracy, timing, rhythm, and more importantly, getting the ball out quickly. Ben was just relying on raw ability and doing nothing else. The results: A constantly mediocre offense that flashed on occasion and did very little else, as the Defense was stuck having to do the dirty work. The Steelers don't sniff Super Bowls XLIII and XLV without the Defense. The first season the offense being absolutely terrible and the latter being mediocre.

Ben is what he is. It is the fans throwing everyone else under the bus to cover for his poor effort and egomania that bothers me.

Ben is not elite. Period. Brady and Manning have not missed the playoffs since 2002 and 2001 respectively (apart from being injured). This means that the last time Manning missed the playoffs Roethlisberger was in his sophomore year at college.

The Colts defense was TERRIBLE. The Patriots defense is TERRIBLE.

Meanwhile Roethlisberger has missed 3 playoffs in spite of having a top 5 defense every year he has been in the league with the exception of 2006 when it was 9th. Manning had a top 10 defense 3x in 13 seasons.

Neil-Still-Rules-14
01-01-2013, 01:49 AM
It is worth noting that Manning and Brady have played in abysmally terrible divisions for most of their careers, while Ben has had to deal with at least one, if not two good teams within the AFC North every season. Ben Roethlisberger is an elite quarterback. He is the greatest quarterback in Steelers history, and is more than likely a first ballot Hall of Famer. It will be a sad day when he retires. Hopefully they don't have to wait another 25 years for another franchise QB.

Edman
01-01-2013, 01:50 AM
Yes, Ben is who he is. I've come to accept that. He's no leader. He's no elite quarterback. He's just a guy, and doesn't belong in the discussion with the league greats. He's better than the crap before him, but he's not on Bradshaw's level and the top-line level QB's.

The Rooneys watch the team and see the games and they know what they have at hand. The five year experiment with Arians' vertical passing game said the whole thing. Yeah, Two more SB appearances (With Ben playing mediocre in both of them) says it all. That's why Haley was brought in. Back to 2004/2005-Era Steelers Football. Ben does his thing while the rest of the team does the rest. I don't think the Rooneys care if Ben likes it or not.

Ben has been given loads of opportunities to shine in a vertical passing offense, the Steelers HAVE brought in and even drafted weapons for him to succeed, and the production had remained the same. Inconsistency, Loads of sacks, poor red zone efficiency, and bad scoring. This is in an era of Goodell-ball where Defenses are gimped and Offenses have had many opportunities to thrive.

lloydwoodson
01-01-2013, 02:23 AM
It is worth noting that Manning and Brady have played in abysmally terrible divisions for most of their careers, while Ben has had to deal with at least one, if not two good teams within the AFC North every season. Ben Roethlisberger is an elite quarterback. He is the greatest quarterback in Steelers history, and is more than likely a first ballot Hall of Famer. It will be a sad day when he retires. Hopefully they don't have to wait another 25 years for another franchise QB.

The Ravens have made the playoffs 6 of the last 7 years. The year they missed Kyle Boller was their starting qb.

The Steelers have made the playoffs 4 of the last 7 years. Every year Roethlisberger was their starting qb.

Don't give me any AFC North nonsense. And if you go back more than 7 years... Kyle Boller was their starting qb.

Roethlisberger is the second best qb in Steelers history. Bradshaw actually had some really clutch performances in big games (read superbowls).

I agree that Roethlisberger will make the HoF. I'm not sure that it matters which ballot.

I for one hope Roethlisberger stops his girlish dramatics and reestablishes the Steelers as the best team in the AFC North. I am a little tired of watching the Ravens go to the playoffs.

bornaSteelersfan
01-01-2013, 03:20 AM
Ben is our guy. He is everything a Steelers Quarterback should be. The biggest problem is that he is not a "student of the game". Brees, Brady, Rodger, and the Mannings watched more tape than Ben watched drunk college chicks (before getting married). Now Ben will be spending his time watching his kid. His athletism is waning as his injuries pile up. His injury list reads more like a stuntman than a quarterback.

Bradshaw was the brain of the offense in those days. Yes he had the best defense, but so does Ben. The difference is Terry had 4 Super Bowl wins in his first 10 seasons. Ben has had 9 seasons now and mathematically cannot match that. He needs to leave his ego outside the stadium and do what he is paid to do.

4xSBChamps
01-01-2013, 07:07 AM
... Ben Roethlisberger... is the greatest quarterback in Steelers history...

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y272/Glensgages/funny%20pictures/huh.gif

VictoryFormation
01-01-2013, 07:10 AM
Growing up in Pittsburgh, I’ve watched the Steelers since I was a little kid. I witnessed most of Bradshaw’s career, and the four Super Bowls. I’ve also watched Ben. Both quarterbacks are similar in their style of play, yet they excel in different aspects. But overall, Ben is better than Bradshaw. Ben is bigger. He’s tougher. He has got a stronger arm. He can move outside the pocket, and throw the ball on-the-run better. In his prime, he could scramble better. Bradshaw was great, but Ben has more natural ability at quarterback.
It took Bradshaw a long time to, fully, develop as a quarterback. Early in his career, he had the arm-strength, but his passes were a little wobbly. He didn’t throw a pretty ball. He was not throwing a tight spiral until he was in the league 6-7 years.
And, as for Bradshaw’s four Super Bowl wins, the league was different back then. There were the haves, and the have-nots. The Steelers became one of the haves, because we had the scouts that could go out, find and evaluate players that were coming out of college better than most of the other teams. By the late 1970’s, the NFL decided to try and correct the imbalance of talent in the league. They wanted parody. What they did was centralize the evaluation process of players coming out of college by creating what is now known as the Scouting Combine. The move by the NFL made a difference, but free agency is what , finally, leveled the playing field, somewhat. Today, there are no teams that are dominating the league, over a period of years. There are still winning franchises, like the Steelers that operate better than others, but there are no dynasties.

lloydwoodson
01-01-2013, 07:13 AM
You know what's ironic about Bradshaw? He spends all this time complaining about how unfairly he was treated by the fans and the media... and then he becomes one of the leading figures in sports journalism criticizing other players routinely.

Wow. That just struck me now. How absurd that the small town hick who hates attention becomes one of the media's most prominent faces.

Have you ever heard the comments he made about Cam Newton last year? They were reall mean. He said Cam was going to flop, that Ponder and Gabbert were going to be better quarterbacks, and that every quarterback in the draft was further along developmentally than Cam. Essentially that he would be a bust.

Hmm. That is probably about the same type of media attention he feels he got. I wonder how Cam felt about Bradshaw's opinion.

pczach
01-01-2013, 08:24 AM
If Tom Brady was the Steeler QB right now, with this roster, how many points a game do you think the Steelers would average? How many would they average with Rodgers, Manning, Brees, etc....?

Twentyvalve
01-01-2013, 08:36 AM
And Ben with the Patriots or the Packers?

I think the Brady and company would be hobbled by our offensive system. You see, the Patriots for example, actually design and execute plays with the intention of scoring.Even deep in their own territory. Not moving the ball 3 yards at a time for 3 points.


If Tom Brady was the Steeler QB right now, with this roster, how many points a game do you think the Steelers would average? How many would they average with Rodgers, Manning, Brees, etc....?

lloydwoodson
01-01-2013, 08:47 AM
If Tom Brady was the Steeler QB right now, with this roster, how many points a game do you think the Steelers would average? How many would they average with Rodgers, Manning, Brees, etc....?


The elite qbs averaged 32 ppg in 2011 and 30 ppg in 2012 in their own offenses. It really depends on how you value Miller, Wallace, Brown, Mendenhall and Sanders.

Last year it seemed like people thought the Broncos had no talent on their offense- it sure looked that way with Tebow running things. The Broncos went from 19 ppg under Tebow to 30 ppg under Manning. But that could have been the amazing play calls from the offensive coordinator making all the difference. Who really knows?

lloydwoodson
01-01-2013, 09:00 AM
And Ben with the Patriots or the Packers?

I think the Brady and company would be hobbled by our offensive system. You see, the Patriots for example, actually design and execute plays with the intention of scoring.Even deep in their own territory. Not moving the ball 3 yards at a time for 3 points.

Here is one now. Hello, sir. It appears that you feel the playcalling is holding Roethlisberger back. If you have time to read my previous remark could you please tell me what you attribute the Broncos offensive success this season to? Is the switch from Tebow to Peyton Manning the cause for the 11 point per game increase in scoring or is it their offensive playcalls?

Is the offensive coordinator the key to an offense or is it the quarterback?

Are you aware that Josh McDaniels was being called the worst offensive coordinator in the NFL when he was with the Rams and is now directing the league's best offense with the Patriots? Did McDaniels become a football genius overnight or is Brady responsible for his success?

Are you aware that Mike Martz was fired from Chicago because he couldn't put up points with Jay Cutler? Are you aware that the following season the Bears put up even fewer points despite acquiring Brandon Marshall (Cutler's old teammate and bonafide NFL star)?

Hypothetically, if a couple of regular guys like you and me were in the NFL: would an NFL offense quarterbacked by yourself and coordinated by Tom Moore be better or worse than an NFL offense quarterbacked by Tom Brady and coordinated by me? Would you put up more points than Tom Brady because you have a genius OC? Or would Brady put up more points while I babbled nonsense into his headset?

Ricco Suavez
01-01-2013, 09:08 AM
The Packers are 15th in pass play %, the Pats and Broncos are 20th and 21st respectively. The Steelers are 13th. Do the other teams get more attempts? Sure because they are actually able to sustain drives. The Steelers run more passing plays per attempt than the teams that actually have an elite qb THE DIFFERENCE IS THE OTHER QBS ACTUALLY SUSTAIN DRIVES. Needed to point out my main point since reading comprehension is low on this board.

The Steelers have not had a solid run game since Whisenhunt left. Arians and Tomlin decided to "arm Ben with weapons." The entire Steeler philosophy has been hijacked to appease Ben. They only last year started focusing on the OL.

If Mendenhall had been healthy this year and Tomlin had not engaged in a pissing match with him; the Steelers would have had a viable rushing attack. "Haley didn't have a ground game with 6th round picks running behind an inexperienced line- get rid of Haley!"

Do you even read your own posts. first you state other Qbs sustain drives, yet after 9 games Ben was leading the league in 3rd down conversion, that is sustaining drives.

Next you say the offense has been designed to appease Ben yet Haley was brought in to bring back the glory days of pound the rock.

Then you even admit (whether you meant to or not) that the Run game sucked, because we did not have the talent( a fact I have pointed out numerous times)

So Ben and a team that at one time was 2nd in the league in TOP and 3rd down conversions could not sustain drives(BTW they were 2nd in TOP last year too). You want to down Ben for a lack of run game but you admit we did not have the tools necessary. You on a roll again, sorry I went yo bed, I could of had a field day with this kind of reasoning.

pczach
01-01-2013, 09:11 AM
The elite qbs averaged 32 ppg in 2011 and 30 ppg in 2012 in their own offenses. It really depends on how you value Miller, Wallace, Brown, Mendenhall and Sanders.

Last year it seemed like people thought the Broncos had no talent on their offense- it sure looked that way with Tebow running things. The Broncos went from 19 ppg under Tebow to 30 ppg under Manning. But that could have been the amazing play calls from the offensive coordinator making all the difference. Who really knows?

Well, that's just it. Brady has to play in THIS offense. With OUR line, wr, etc...

I don't think any of the top qb's would do any or much better in this system with this talent.

To be fair to everyone, players and coaches alike, I think we need to see what happens with a healthy roster and a year to reflect and adjust. I think the OL will be better next year. Some of our young linemen have some experience now and just need to get healthy and work on thier craft.. We'll see what old faces will be gone, and what new faces are added to strengthen the roster. I think our offensive philosophy has to be adjusted to fit the strengths of the players on the team. I believe that wasn't done this year offensively.

Ricco Suavez
01-01-2013, 09:11 AM
Here is one now. Hello, sir. It appears that you feel the playcalling is holding Roethlisberger back. If you have time to read my previous remark could you please tell me what you attribute the Broncos offensive success this season to? Is the switch from Tebow to Peyton Manning the cause for the 11 point per game increase in scoring or is it their offensive playcalls?

Is the offensive coordinator the key to an offense or is it the quarterback?

Are you aware that Josh McDaniels was being called the worst offensive coordinator in the NFL when he was with the Rams and is now directing the league's best offense with the Patriots? Did McDaniels become a football genius overnight or is Brady responsible for his success?

Are you aware that Mike Martz was fired from Chicago because he couldn't put up points with Jay Cutler? Are you aware that the following season the Bears put up even fewer points despite acquiring Brandon Marshall (Cutler's old teammate and bonafide NFL star)?

Hypothetically, if a couple of regular guys like you and me were in the NFL: would an NFL offense quarterbacked by yourself and coordinated by Tom Moore be better or worse than an NFL offense quarterbacked by Tom Brady and coordinated by me? Would you put up more points than Tom Brady because you have a genius OC? Or would Brady put up more points while I babbled nonsense into his headset?

Not a Cutler fan but he had nearly as bad of line as Ben had when they beat Arizona. Besides is he not one of the QB that you touted out on your posts as putting up points, until I pointed out that his defense and special teams scored 9 TDs this year. Those pooints are figured in also.

MaidenIndiana
01-01-2013, 09:13 AM
you know what? The entire Steelers team had a bad season but we'll be back next year so get over it. Some of you so-called fans would bitch if you were hung with new ropes.

pczach
01-01-2013, 09:17 AM
you know what? The entire Steelers team had a bad season but we'll be back next year so get over it. Some of you so-called fans would bitch if you were hung with new ropes.

Anyone with an Iron Maiden avatar is alright by me! :tt04:

Ricco Suavez
01-01-2013, 09:42 AM
You know I hear Elite this and Elite that, I hear there are only 4 Elite QBs, I disagree, I have said there are 2 and then everyone else. Ben is not Peyton, or Brady, who is?, Ben does not play on a team like the Saints who have put all their cap eggs into the offense, who is led by an offensive minded coach. Rodgers is a special QB, and yet he was bounced from the playoffs early last year and lost to a KC team, and they have lost their share this year as well. Eli has benefited from his defense more than any other QB in both of his SB wins,(although I will say his play up to the SB in the playoffs was great).

Yet these QB are all people trot out when downing Ben . Does it matter that I could pull up stats and numbers that show Ben is at least in the equation of being a 5-7 QB, no his detractors point to his first SB ,but not his play in the playoffs. Does it matter if he had a new OC and a new system,(that I agree he likely did not buy into) no, But Haley is right and Ben is always wrong in these peoples eyes. No thought at all that the defenses caught up with Haleys plan. They blame Ben for the lack of a running game, while Ben would be the person to most benefit from a running game, yet the numbers show we were very poor at the run. The reason there is not as many attempts is it was ineffective, the same theory that people use to bash Arians for his pass first offense, it was not as effective. Bens play through his first 9 years is unlike any we have seen as Steeler Fans, His numbers, team wins are better than nearly any other QB, Two SBs that I promise you he had something to do with.

Ben is compared to Peyton and Brady and Terry Bradshaw because he has earned the right to be in those type of conversations. When Ben is through he will have almost every QB record of this franchise ( except SB wins unless the team returns to form) .I think most of this type of hate comes not from his play on the field but form the hatred of his personality (not a factor to me since all I care for is Steeler wins) his off field issues, ( once again not an issue for me since basically no proof, and no attacks substantiated., ) and finally he is not Steeler Football. This last one is what baffles me the most, he has played hurt, (real not imagined) he has played hard nosed, running many times for first downs, throwing blocks, and fighting for a chance to make a play when the OL was as bad as it could get.(The Arizona SB we had the worst line in the NFL, not me, but According to the NFL). I do not know what more some could want, bad years happen to most teams even with so called elite QBs, Saints Giants anyone. A bad year does not condemn hm to this trade, get rid of BS. But what a bad year does is give all the haters the ammunition they feel they need and the God given right to bash the Steeler QB, not like it has not been done before and done better more than likely.

lloydwoodson
01-01-2013, 10:11 AM
Do you even read your own posts. first you state other Qbs sustain drives, yet after 9 games Ben was leading the league in 3rd down conversion, that is sustaining drives.

Next you say the offense has been designed to appease Ben yet Haley was brought in to bring back the glory days of pound the rock.

Then you even admit (whether you meant to or not) that the Run game sucked, because we did not have the talent( a fact I have pointed out numerous times)

So Ben and a team that at one time was 2nd in the league in TOP and 3rd down conversions could not sustain drives(BTW they were 2nd in TOP last year too). You want to down Ben for a lack of run game but you admit we did not have the tools necessary. You on a roll again, sorry I went yo bed, I could of had a field day with this kind of reasoning.

Drives can also be sustained by picking up first downs on 1st and 2nd down. Sustaining drives is measured in first downs not in 3rd down conversion percentage.

This is possibly why Steelers were 17th in 1st downs/game. (Pats 1st, Broncos 3rd, Saints 5th, Packers 7th). That rounds out the elite qbs nicely. All top 10 once again just like the points they score year after year.

Can I expect an apology in the near future? Or will you dogmatically pursue your agenda of attacking the Steelers to preserve the illusion of Ben?

The personnel of the Steelers offense was designed to appease Ben. Yes it was. Tomlin spoke of "arming Ben with weapons" and then drafted Mendenhall and Sweed in his first year. You know... the year of Ben's tall wr comments? Do you consider Limas tall at 6-4? Is there any correlation between Tomlin's "arming with weapons" comments, Ben's "tall wr" comments and the 2008 NFL draft selection of a tall wr? Mike Wallace was drafted the following year, and Brown and Sanders the year after that. Having Ward, Wallace, Brown, Sanders, Miller, and Mendenhall on the team was done specifically to surround Ben with "weapons." This team was built around Ben he has had EVERY opportunity to succeed.

lloydwoodson
01-01-2013, 10:27 AM
Ben is compared to Peyton and Brady and Terry Bradshaw because he has earned the right to be in those type of conversations.

This made me laugh. :toofunny: There are a lot of bad reasons Ben is included in "elite" conversations; what you will never hear is a conversation that asks if Brady, Manning, Brees, or Rodgers deserve to be called "elite."

desertsteel
01-01-2013, 10:28 AM
Bradshaw's first taste of media and public attention did not occur until 1970 when he was drafted with the Pittsburgh Steelers' first pick. Bradshaw absolutely hated the attention and prayed to God that he would be out of Pittsburgh before he even won a superbowl with them.

Based on Bradshaw's personality and the nature of fans to criticize anything but superbowl wins, it is safe to assume that Bradshaw would have hated playing in any NFL city. By his own admission Bradshaw hated the Pittsburgh fans by the time he won a superbowl and was unaffected when he was heaped with praise.


So you are saying that from the time that Terry arrived in Pittsburgh there was criticism from fans and pressure to win the Super Bowl??? You lost me on that one...

steelfury02
01-01-2013, 10:29 AM
Growing up in Pittsburgh, I’ve watched the Steelers since I was a little kid. I witnessed most of Bradshaw’s career, and the four Super Bowls. I’ve also watched Ben. Both quarterbacks are similar in their style of play, yet they excel in different aspects. But overall, Ben is better than Bradshaw. Ben is bigger. He’s tougher. He has got a stronger arm. He can move outside the pocket, and throw the ball on-the-run better. In his prime, he could scramble better. Bradshaw was great, but Ben has more natural ability at quarterback.
It took Bradshaw a long time to, fully, develop as a quarterback. Early in his career, he had the arm-strength, but his passes were a little wobbly. He didn’t throw a pretty ball. He was not throwing a tight spiral until he was in the league 6-7 years.
And, as for Bradshaw’s four Super Bowl wins, the league was different back then. There were the haves, and the have-nots. The Steelers became one of the haves, because we had the scouts that could go out, find and evaluate players that were coming out of college better than most of the other teams. By the late 1970’s, the NFL decided to try and correct the imbalance of talent in the league. They wanted parody. What they did was centralize the evaluation process of players coming out of college by creating what is now known as the Scouting Combine. The move by the NFL made a difference, but free agency is what , finally, leveled the playing field, somewhat. Today, there are no teams that are dominating the league, over a period of years. There are still winning franchises, like the Steelers that operate better than others, but there are no dynasties.

We def don't win XL & XLIII without Ben - we needed to get over the hump at the QB position, and Ben def has had his moments in the sun. I wouldn't change any of those playoff performances, and despite an abysmal showing in XL - he still was involved in a TD run, and, the El pass to Ward to seal the deal (on top of his 3 great performances on the road) I don't have to remind everyone of one of if not the best SB drive ever in XLIII.

As a fan of the Pittsburgh Steelers above any and all QBs, I still reserve the right to bitch, complain and generally demand that Ben do some things to evolve and improve himself so as a whole, Steelers Nation can enjoy at least 1 more SB victory before the guy hangs it up. On his current course, this team is not going to win another one before he retires. He isn't responsible for injuries or dropsies to and by other players, nor should he shoulder all the blame after being shaky, and not nearly healthy enough upon return (as he admitted).

You know which career this is starting to mirror though? Not Bradshaws. Closer to Brett Favre. How many times after his SB victory, and appearance, did we hear more about his toughness, grit, and guts over his abilities to read defenses, go through progressions, and release the ball quickly, move the chains, and put the team on his shoulders. I don't want fantasy stats, I just am tired of hearing how great Mr. John Wayne, guts & grit, Mr. "Live by the Sword, Die by the Sword" continues to be. He has never moved passed that, and neither will the progression of the offense - regardless of identity. Ok - let Ben be Ben, and the let offense be the offense that it is - that is what I'm hearing - that this version is acceptable and Ben isn't responsible for when the offense doesn't improve. Seems to me unless he's got a pal-around at OC, he's going to be a jerk about it.

Most Ben apologists thought it was so wonderful that Ben accepted blame - guess what, that' what a great QB should do. The response that this was so great of him is very telling, and proof that you won't find him taking responsibility that often. I'll praise Ben for being the toughest SOB at QB, and managing to make something out of nothing, with flashes of some fantastic never-give-upness - but that's where it ends. Ben's reliance on his improv is no longer a surprise to defenses, thus - regression. They were 6-3 and looking like world-beaters before the injuries. Bruce employed the dink and dunk against the Patriots that HEAVILY relied on TOP, yet it worked. These are flashes of what Ben is capable of, and where this offense needs to go to start carrying the load for once.

desertsteel
01-01-2013, 10:32 AM
or those who have forgotten, Ben was huge in the playoffs leading us to the first SB win. Without him, we would have been ousted in the first round.

Ricco Suavez
01-01-2013, 10:32 AM
Drives can also be sustained by picking up first downs on 1st and 2nd down. Sustaining drives is measured in first downs not in 3rd down conversion percentage.

This is possibly why Steelers were 17th in 1st downs/game. (Pats 1st, Broncos 3rd, Saints 5th, Packers 7th). That rounds out the elite qbs nicely. All top 10 once again just like the points they score year after year.

Can I expect an apology in the near future? Or will you dogmatically pursue your agenda of attacking the Steelers to preserve the illusion of Ben?

The personnel of the Steelers offense was designed to appease Ben. Yes it was. Tomlin spoke of "arming Ben with weapons" and then drafted Mendenhall and Sweed in his first year. You know... the year of Ben's tall wr comments? Do you consider Limas tall at 6-4? Is there any correlation between Tomlin's "arming with weapons" comments, Ben's "tall wr" comments and the 2008 NFL draft selection of a tall wr? Mike Wallace was drafted the following year, and Brown and Sanders the year after that. Having Ward, Wallace, Brown, Sanders, Miller, and Mendenhall on the team was done specifically to surround Ben with "weapons." This team was built around Ben he has had EVERY opportunity to succeed.

You will not get an apology on this kind of logic.

1. First downs can be gotten on first and second downs, but you must not have watched the first nine games or have selective memory. We RAN on first down nearly every time, then we might RUN again or Pass a short pass that was not enough for the first down. Than is G47's argument of tying Bens hands and I could not agree more. This was when Ben was leading the league in 3rd downs, not because we wanted too, but because he had to.

2 As far as Mendenhall and Sweed, I was happy with both picks at the time. I am sure I can go back to that thread and likely find others like yourself who blame Ben for EVERYTHING, (maybe even you) who were happy too. Mendenhall was rated a top 2-3 RB and Sweed the same. The Steelers whiffed on at least one and looking more like both. The FO missed the part that both are head cases, one who tweets and posts outlandish statements and the other a "I can't catch the ball anymore" syndrome.

3. As far as BEn wanting a tall receiver, who would not. Brady has too tall WRs packaged as TEs. Peyton has Thomas 6'3", tall enough for you. Ben had Plax his first few years and when he left, sure he would of liked another. I am sorry but your logic is as sound as the national budget.

lloydwoodson
01-01-2013, 10:33 AM
So you are saying that from the time that Terry arrived in Pittsburgh there was criticism from fans and pressure to win the Super Bowl??? You lost me on that one...

Bradshaw did not win a superbowl until 5 years into his career. During that time he wanted to be out of Pittsburgh. The pressure he felt was unwanted attention whether good or bad and was not specifically related to the superbowl or he would have said so. The point is that even after he won the superbowl and people started praising him he already hated Pittsburgh by his own account.

Bradshaw was basically Ricky Williams without the pot.

Bradshaw could not stand to be scrutinized. Now Bradshaw scrutinizes others for a living. Funny huh?

desertsteel
01-01-2013, 10:34 AM
Bradshaw did not win a superbowl until 5 years into his career. During that time he wanted to be out of Pittsburgh. The pressure he felt was unwanted attention whether good or bad and was not specifically related to the superbowl or he would have said so. The point is that even after he won the superbowl and people started praising him he already hated Pittsburgh by his own account.

Bradshaw was basically Ricky Williams without the pot.

Bradshaw could not stand to be scrutinized. Now Bradshaw scrutinizes others for a living. Funny huh?
Pressure yes. But not Super Bowl pressure from the time he arrived. I'm glad he stuck it out :)

lloydwoodson
01-01-2013, 10:45 AM
You will not get an apology on this kind of logic.

1. First downs can be gotten on first and second downs, but you must not have watched the first nine games or have selective memory. We RAN on first down nearly every time, then we might RUN again or Pass a short pass that was not enough for the first down. Than is G47's argument of tying Bens hands and I could not agree more. This was when Ben was leading the league in 3rd downs, not because we wanted too, but because he had to.

2 As far as Mendenhall and Sweed, I was happy with both picks at the time. I am sure I can go back to that thread and likely find others like yourself who blame Ben for EVERYTHING, (maybe even you) who were happy too. Mendenhall was rated a top 2-3 RB and Sweed the same. The Steelers whiffed on at least one and looking more like both. The FO missed the part that both are head cases, one who tweets and posts outlandish statements and the other a "I can't catch the ball anymore" syndrome.

3. As far as BEn wanting a tall receiver, who would not. Brady has too tall WRs packaged as TEs. Peyton has Thomas 6'3", tall enough for you. Ben had Plax his first few years and when he left, sure he would of liked another. I am sorry but your logic is as sound as the national budget.



1. :coffee: More Ben overcoming the horrible offensive coordinator BS. The Steelers averaged 20 1st/G under Arians over his tenure and only had 19 1st/G under the terrible playcalling of Haley. The horror!

2/3. The point is not whether the draft picks worked out. I thought Sweed would be the next Randy Moss. The point is that the Steelers consciously made an effort to increase Ben's offensive role and production through the draft and made a point of it in the media. It has not worked. Wallace, Brown and Sanders panned out nicely and Mendenhall is a lot better than he is given credit for.

Ricco Suavez
01-01-2013, 11:02 AM
1. :coffee: More Ben overcoming the horrible offensive coordinator BS. The Steelers averaged 20 1st/G under Arians over his tenure and only had 19 1st/G under the terrible playcalling of Haley. The horror!

2/3. The point is not whether the draft picks worked out. I thought Sweed would be the next Randy Moss. The point is that the Steelers consciously made an effort to increase Ben's offensive role and production through the draft and made a point of it in the media. It has not worked. Wallace, Brown and Sanders panned out nicely and Mendenhall is a lot better than he is given credit for.

And no other Team drafts to improve, brilliant concept. You just said yourself that you thought Sweed would be next Randy Moss, who would not draft the next Randy Moss, for any reason. You are grasping for straws in this blame game, now Ben is at fault in drafting who you perceived as the next Randy Moss. Hey smart FO give QB weapons,(shh, dont tell anyone but you cant score without weapons, much less be a playoff team) yet since we did it for our QB it is all SOOOOO wrong. Geesh. I............Can't .................Reason ........with ............such .................logic......must.............. watch......jeopardy...........try .......to ..........get........back............my.........br ain.......cells.........I.....wasted............re ading ......this..............drivel.

GoFor7
01-01-2013, 12:04 PM
Most Ben apologists thought it was so wonderful that Ben accepted blame - guess what, that' what a great QB should do. The response that this was so great of him is very telling, and proof that you won't find him taking responsibility that often. I'll praise Ben for being the toughest SOB at QB, and managing to make something out of nothing, with flashes of some fantastic never-give-upness - but that's where it ends. Ben's reliance on his improv is no longer a surprise to defenses, thus - regression. They were 6-3 and looking like world-beaters before the injuries. Bruce employed the dink and dunk against the Patriots that HEAVILY relied on TOP, yet it worked. These are flashes of what Ben is capable of, and where this offense needs to go to start carrying the load for once.

steelfury, I keep explaining it - the Steelers don't want to be an offensive team, they want to remain a defensive team.

The reason the Steelers were successful against the Patriots in 2011 wasn't just about TOP, it was because they attacked a weakness. In the 2010 game against the Patriots, the Steelers did not attack a weakness, they played Marty ball - which resulted in Ben having to throw for close to 400 yards to make the game look closer than it was.

This season, the Steelers played close to the vest football. They wanted to keep the games close. They handcuffed Ben for the majority of the game, leaving the game up for grabs in the end. It was either Ben pulls a miracle out of his ass or the Steelers were screwed. Now, do the Patriots handcuff Brady? Do the Broncos handcuff Manning? Are those two teams constantly fretting over time of possession? Do those teams play Marty ball, or do they attack?

See, you want it both ways. You want Ben to be reduced to a game manager for the first 58 minutes of a game, and you want the Steelers to be a ball-control team. When that doesn't work, you want Ben to bail the Steelers out from their own stupidity every time. Doesn't work like that. Don't bitch about the lack of scoring output when you want the team to play in a shell.

Want more from Ben? Let him try to win the game early. Stop with the predictable play calling (run, run, pass) and stop fretting over time of possession.

lloydwoodson
01-01-2013, 12:33 PM
steelfury, I keep explaining it - the Steelers don't want to be an offensive team, they want to remain a defensive team.

The reason the Steelers were successful against the Patriots in 2011 wasn't just about TOP, it was because they attacked a weakness. In the 2010 game against the Patriots, the Steelers did not attack a weakness, they played Marty ball - which resulted in Ben having to throw for close to 400 yards to make the game look closer than it was.

This season, the Steelers played close to the vest football. They wanted to keep the games close. They handcuffed Ben for the majority of the game, leaving the game up for grabs in the end. It was either Ben pulls a miracle out of his ass or the Steelers were screwed. Now, do the Patriots handcuff Brady? Do the Broncos handcuff Manning? Are those two teams constantly fretting over time of possession? Do those teams play Marty ball, or do they attack?

See, you want it both ways. You want Ben to be reduced to a game manager for the first 58 minutes of a game, and you want the Steelers to be a ball-control team. When that doesn't work, you want Ben to bail the Steelers out from their own stupidity every time. Doesn't work like that. Don't bitch about the lack of scoring output when you want the team to play in a shell.

Want more from Ben? Let him try to win the game early. Stop with the predictable play calling (run, run, pass) and stop fretting over time of possession.

I think TOP is coming from Tomlin not from Haley. Haley doesn't strike me as a TOP guy. I do not agree that Haley is handcuffing Ben. Handcuffing is too strong a word first of all and secondly it isn't about Ben.

HALEY IS CALLING THE PLAYS HE THINKS WILL HELP THE STEELERS WIN!

It is not about Ben. It is about what is best for the team. The TOP thing has to be coming from Tomlin because he won't shut up about it.

Haley "handcuffing" Ben in the later games was because he takes something into account Arians did not... the weather.

Ben had 5 years under Arians to prove he could turn the Steelers into a high-scoring offense-first team and he didn't do it. it is over. Deal with it.

Tomlin is the guy who thinks Suisham can make 50+ yard kicks too. So that is on him.

Playing Leftwich with a broken rib is on Tomlin. Batch might not have won the first Ravens game but at least he had a shot.

I would put this season on Tomlin first, ST second, Roethlisberger third.

The offense is going back to pre-Arians. Deal with it.

Ricco Suavez
01-01-2013, 02:15 PM
I will agree that "handcuffing" is likely not the best term to use. I do think that Haley did no one any favors Ben or otherwise by constantly putting us in 2nd , 3rd and long (hell what is long anymore, we couldn't pick up one and two yard short yardage plays in those situations), We could not run on first down and we could not run on obvious run downs. Thing is this has not just been the case this year, this has been going on for some time, at least 3 years or more. Red Zone issues last year were as much because of this as anything Arians or Ben did. I think it will not return to Arians type play calling, but I bet the farm it will not be the same as this year, not if Haley, Tomlin, and Rooney are as smart as I think they are.

GoFor7
01-01-2013, 03:27 PM
I will agree that "handcuffing" is likely not the best term to use. I do think that Haley did no one any favors Ben or otherwise by constantly putting us in 2nd , 3rd and long (hell what is long anymore, we couldn't pick up one and two yard short yardage plays in those situations), We could not run on first down and we could not run on obvious run downs. Thing is this has not just been the case this year, this has been going on for some time, at least 3 years or more. Red Zone issues last year were as much because of this as anything Arians or Ben did. I think it will not return to Arians type play calling, but I bet the farm it will not be the same as this year, not if Haley, Tomlin, and Rooney are as smart as I think they are.

The purpose behind that type of play calling (run, run, pass or run, bubble screen, pass) was to possess the ball. If they want to continue the ball control game, don't expect much change. However, if the emphasis switches to scoring points and not worrying about babysitting the defense, then maybe that will be the case.

They have to stop trying to be like the old Steelers or worrying about who could get hurt and take over games.

austinfrench76
01-01-2013, 06:07 PM
Terry just comes off bitter these days! He wouldn't partake in the Immaculate Reception biopic on NFL Network???! What's that about??? Either way, Ben is going to go down as the better QB and hopefully with more rings!!!!

jiminpa
01-01-2013, 06:15 PM
Terry just comes off bitter these days! He wouldn't partake in the Immaculate Reception biopic on NFL Network???! What's that about??? Either way, Ben is going to go down as the better QB and hopefully with more rings!!!!Ben's not even legitimately in that conversation. There is no question that Bradshaw was at a whole different level than Ben. If Bradshaw had not made the HOF it would have been a gross injustice. There are better QBs playing this week, (some not until next week), than Ben who may not make the HOF.

steelfury02
01-01-2013, 06:40 PM
The purpose behind that type of play calling (run, run, pass or run, bubble screen, pass) was to possess the ball. If they want to continue the ball control game, don't expect much change. However, if the emphasis switches to scoring points and not worrying about babysitting the defense, then maybe that will be the case.

They have to stop trying to be like the old Steelers or worrying about who could get hurt and take over games.

Sandlot style doesn't equate to scoring more points. There's a reason why the highest scoring offenses don't rely on it. They don't give Ben the keys because he isn't capable. He's already lost enough in key situations as much as he's won. I love Ben, I'm happy for what he did - but he won't do more until he buys into something a little bigger than his wonderful skill set that doesn't cut it for an aging QB. The end.

GoFor7
01-01-2013, 06:44 PM
Sandlot style doesn't equate to scoring more points. There's a reason why the highest scoring offenses don't rely on it. They don't give Ben the keys because he isn't capable. He's already lost enough in key situations as much as he's won. I love Ben, I'm happy for what he did - but he won't do more until he buys into something a little bigger than his wonderful skill set that doesn't cut it for an aging QB. The end.

Sorry, but that's just made up.

"Sandlot style" gives the Steelers a better chance than run, run, pass. The Steelers have had to rely on that style because they stubbornly stuck to Marty ball for most games, then needed Ben to bail them out in the end.

steelfury02
01-01-2013, 06:45 PM
Sorry, but that's just made up.

"Sandlot style" gives the Steelers a better chance than run, run, pass. The Steelers have had to rely on that style because they stubbornly stuck to Marty ball for most games, then needed Ben to bail them out in the end.

Made up? So is your marty ball theory. See - I can do it too:thumbsup:

GoFor7
01-01-2013, 06:47 PM
Made up? So is your marty ball theory. See - I can do it too:thumbsup:

Well I can't argue that. Marty ball is run, run, pass. Sometimes the Steelers are run, bubble screen, pass. So I guess I twisted the definition of Marty ball a bit. :thumbsup:

steelfury02
01-01-2013, 06:50 PM
Well I can't argue that. Marty ball is run, run, pass. Sometimes the Steelers are run, bubble screen, pass. So I guess I twisted the definition of Marty ball a bit. :thumbsup:

you did. it's ok :chuckle:

we just disgree, and that's coo - I just think that the TOP offense was an improvement over what Barians wanted to do, and it looked to me that it was shaping up nicely until the injury. Just my two cents.

GoFor7
01-01-2013, 06:53 PM
you did. it's ok :chuckle:

we just disgree, and that's coo - I just think that the TOP offense was an improvement over what Barians wanted to do, and it looked to me that it was shaping up nicely until the injury. Just my two cents.

Arians offense was always near the top in the league in TOP - that was always a manufactured problem by the fans.

teegre
01-01-2013, 06:55 PM
You are both wrong.
Marty-ball is: run, run, run... & run*.

*(punting is for pansies).

When he had Ernest Byner, it worked. When he had Marcus Allen, it worked. When he had LaDainian Tomlinson, it worked.

Uh... why are we talking about Marty Schottenheimer???

steelfury02
01-01-2013, 07:11 PM
So Arians wasn't the answer
Haley wasn't the answer
Marty wasn't the answer

Who exactly is there left to dissect?

The QB is all I can think of.

pczach
01-01-2013, 07:32 PM
I love Terry Bradshaw. I grew up watching him lead the Steelers to all those Super Bowls. But those of you that say Ben isn't in the same league as Bradshaw have a serious case of revisionist history. I won't even list numbers. It was a different game back then. Terry had a lot of terrible games. I'm talking 3 or 4 interception games. Games he lost all by himself.

Now that that's out of the way, here's the thing that is apparantly escapes many of you. Bradshaw played with the greatest collection of talent to ever grace a football field. What is it that you guys don't understand about that. He had a HOF RB, 2 HOF receivers, The best offensive line of his era with multiple HOF, and the greatest collection of defensive talent ever with HOF players everywhere. He could play horrible football, and the team could still win. Ben played one super bowl like that and you all bring up that game in every post you make here as an argument against Ben. It's laughable. Bradshaw was horrible in our first SB victory against the Vikings, and he was a much more experienced QB than Ben was in his first SB.

The Bottom line here is that Ben has done more with less talent than Bradshaw could ever dream about. He is much more consistent than Bradshaw ever was, and is much better at bringing his team from behind and last-minute scoring drives. This really isn't arguable. Again, I love Bradshaw. He was a great quarterback and deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. That being said, I believe Ben is a better quarterback than Bradshaw. If he had that kind of talent around him, the Steelers would almost never lose a game. They would be unstoppable. The talent gap between each other's teammates is staggering. How could you not see this?

fansince'76
01-01-2013, 07:52 PM
I love Terry Bradshaw. I grew up watching him lead the Steelers to all those Super Bowls. But those of you that say Ben isn't in the same league as Bradshaw have a serious case of revisionist history. I won't even list numbers. It was a different game back then. Terry had a lot of terrible games. I'm talking 3 or 4 interception games. Games he lost all by himself.

Now that that's out of the way, here's the thing that is apparantly escapes many of you. Bradshaw played with the greatest collection of talent to ever grace a football field. What is it that you guys don't understand about that. He had a HOF RB, 2 HOF receivers, The best offensive line of his era with multiple HOF, and the greatest collection of defensive talent ever with HOF players everywhere. He could play horrible football, and the team could still win. Ben played one super bowl like that and you all bring up that game in every post you make here as an argument against Ben. It's laughable. Bradshaw was horrible in our first SB victory against the Vikings, and he was a much more experienced QB than Ben was in his first SB.

The Bottom line here is that Ben has done more with less talent than Bradshaw could ever dream about. He is much more consistent than Bradshaw ever was, and is much better at bringing his team from behind and last-minute scoring drives. This really isn't arguable. Again, I love Bradshaw. He was a great quarterback and deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. That being said, I believe Ben is a better quarterback than Bradshaw. If he had that kind of talent around him, the Steelers would almost never lose a game. They would be unstoppable. The talent gap between each other's teammates is staggering. How could you not see this?

Bingo. I couldn't have said it better and agree 100%. However, you must remember that most of the people making these assertions are young adults/kids who are either too young to remember Bradshaw or weren't even born until after he retired and whose only point of reference of his career are four rings, four old Super Bowl highlight reels with John Facenda waxing poetic about his skills as a field general and the fact that he made the recent "Top 100 Players in NFL History" list.

TRH
01-01-2013, 07:55 PM
I love Terry Bradshaw. I grew up watching him lead the Steelers to all those Super Bowls. But those of you that say Ben isn't in the same league as Bradshaw have a serious case of revisionist history. I won't even list numbers. It was a different game back then. Terry had a lot of terrible games. I'm talking 3 or 4 interception games. Games he lost all by himself.

Now that that's out of the way, here's the thing that is apparantly escapes many of you. Bradshaw played with the greatest collection of talent to ever grace a football field. What is it that you guys don't understand about that. He had a HOF RB, 2 HOF receivers, The best offensive line of his era with multiple HOF, and the greatest collection of defensive talent ever with HOF players everywhere. He could play horrible football, and the team could still win. Ben played one super bowl like that and you all bring up that game in every post you make here as an argument against Ben. It's laughable. Bradshaw was horrible in our first SB victory against the Vikings, and he was a much more experienced QB than Ben was in his first SB.

The Bottom line here is that Ben has done more with less talent than Bradshaw could ever dream about. He is much more consistent than Bradshaw ever was, and is much better at bringing his team from behind and last-minute scoring drives. This really isn't arguable. Again, I love Bradshaw. He was a great quarterback and deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. That being said, I believe Ben is a better quarterback than Bradshaw. If he had that kind of talent around him, the Steelers would almost never lose a game. They would be unstoppable. The talent gap between each other's teammates is staggering. How could you not see this?

i also concur. You are exactly correct. The fact is - Ben is a better QB than Bradshaw was. I can't even imagine the kind of numbers and victories Ben would have put up with that team around him.
I like the history of Bradshaw here and he's a legend - but all this crying about Terry is ridiculous. He was absolutely hated here - all the way up to and including his retirement.

jiminpa
01-01-2013, 08:48 PM
And what you Ben groupies seem to forget is that Bradshaw liked to put the ball where his receivers could catch it. He ran Chuck Noll's offense by Chuck's gameplan, but called he called the plays. He wasn't easy to sack either, and he wasn't afraid to pull it down and run for a first down. I won't argue that Swann and Stalworth both belong in the HOF, as well as Rocky and Franco, and the line. What you BR fans don't dare face is that Bradshaw didn't resist handing the ball off and throwing it those men. He could throw long, and often threw short, and the receivers knew where the defense was by how Terry's pass traveled. Bradshaw was more interested in what worked than what he wanted to do, or his own stats, and he didn't have lie about it, the way our current, all stats, no points QB does. Bradshaw really did orchestrate the offense. Ben tries to and fails, and when he has had coordinators that are smart enough to recognize that Ben isn't smart he resists them and their efforts to move the ball on purpose rather than by luck.

Bradshaw contributed to championships, Ben has been dragged along for the ride, but takes the bow as if he is carrying the team without help. Yes, he has been key, in almost as many wins as he was key in losses. He could be a very good QB, but he has not yet been more of an asset than a liability to the team. He is selfish on the field and off, and given the choice will put himself above the team even in competition. He stands in and takes the hit because it accomplishes his goals. If he doesn't feel like hitting the wide open receiver for a first down, he holds the ball, or attempts the forced deep pass for an interception. No, he is not even close to Bradshaw's level.

fansince'76
01-01-2013, 09:02 PM
And what you Ben groupies seem to forget is that Bradshaw liked to put the ball where his receivers could catch it. He ran Chuck Noll's offense by Chuck's gameplan, but called he called the plays. He wasn't easy to sack either, and he wasn't afraid to pull it down and run for a first down. I won't argue that Swann and Stalworth both belong in the HOF, as well as Rocky and Franco, and the line. What you BR fans don't dare face is that Bradshaw didn't resist handing the ball off and throwing it those men. He could throw long, and often threw short, and the receivers knew where the defense was by how Terry's pass traveled. Bradshaw was more interested in what worked than what he wanted to do, or his own stats, and he didn't have lie about it, the way our current, all stats, no points QB does. Bradshaw really did orchestrate the offense. Ben tries to and fails, and when he has had coordinators that are smart enough to recognize that Ben isn't smart he resists them and their efforts to move the ball on purpose rather than by luck.

Bradshaw contributed to championships, Ben has been dragged along for the ride, but takes the bow as if he is carrying the team without help. Yes, he has been key, in almost as many wins as he was key in losses. He could be a very good QB, but he has not yet been more of an asset than a liability to the team. He is selfish on the field and off, and given the choice will put himself above the team even in competition. He stands in and takes the hit because it accomplishes his goals. If he doesn't feel like hitting the wide open receiver for a first down, he holds the ball, or attempts the forced deep pass for an interception. No, he is not even close to Bradshaw's level.

Bradshaw had the better deep ball, I'll give him that. That's it. Accuracy? You kidding me? We're talking about a guy who on his career completed less than 52% of his passes. How many times did Swann have to leap about six feet in the air to pull in a Bradshaw pass? Too many to count. When Ben has multiple 20+ INT seasons on his resume like Bradshaw, let me know. And as far as forcing the deep ball, Bradshaw's entire mantra was "go deep." If Ben threw as many picks now as Bradshaw did, he'd get crucified even worse than he already is. That's a fact the Roethlisberger lynch mob doesn't seem to want to acknowledge.

Ricco Suavez
01-01-2013, 09:44 PM
And what you Ben groupies seem to forget is that Bradshaw liked to put the ball where his receivers could catch it. He ran Chuck Noll's offense by Chuck's gameplan, but called he called the plays. He wasn't easy to sack either, and he wasn't afraid to pull it down and run for a first down. I won't argue that Swann and Stalworth both belong in the HOF, as well as Rocky and Franco, and the line. What you BR fans don't dare face is that Bradshaw didn't resist handing the ball off and throwing it those men. He could throw long, and often threw short, and the receivers knew where the defense was by how Terry's pass traveled. Bradshaw was more interested in what worked than what he wanted to do, or his own stats, and he didn't have lie about it, the way our current, all stats, no points QB does. Bradshaw really did orchestrate the offense. Ben tries to and fails, and when he has had coordinators that are smart enough to recognize that Ben isn't smart he resists them and their efforts to move the ball on purpose rather than by luck.

Bradshaw contributed to championships, Ben has been dragged along for the ride, but takes the bow as if he is carrying the team without help. Yes, he has been key, in almost as many wins as he was key in losses. He could be a very good QB, but he has not yet been more of an asset than a liability to the team. He is selfish on the field and off, and given the choice will put himself above the team even in competition. He stands in and takes the hit because it accomplishes his goals. If he doesn't feel like hitting the wide open receiver for a first down, he holds the ball, or attempts the forced deep pass for an interception. No, he is not even close to Bradshaw's level.

If Bradshaw was so freaking accurate explain his 52% completion rate, better yet explain how he could throw 212 Ints to 210 TD. A man who "put the ball where his receivers could catch it" yet threw an INT for nearly every TD and completed a little over 1 of 2 passes he threw must of had some bad Receivers to do no better than that. Hater Hater Hater, it kills you and others that Ben is the best thing to happen to this team since Terry. You try to selectively remember all the former greats and their glory yet you either were not there or refuse to believe the ones who actually saw those greats play. Terry was good and he threw the best long ball ever, but he was notoriously inaccurate, fire bullets from short range that where nearly uncatchable, would throw into double, triple coverage and leave you sratching your head wondering WTF. We all know from too many that Ben has done nothing to contribute to this team since hes been here, furthermore its his fault we cant run the ball but at a 3.7 yd per clip, its his fault that the defense can no longer produce sacks or turnovers, its his fault that the ST play is so crappy, its also his fault that we had numerous injuries this year, its his fault he is not Peyton or Brady. If he was Brady or Peyton ya'll would be giving him hell for losing the last 3 SB hes been too, good night.

VictoryFormation
01-01-2013, 10:31 PM
I would have to respectfully disagree with the notion that the Todd Haley offense is “Marty ball.” From what I’ve seen, it is more like the Ken Whisenhunt offense that he used when Tommy Maddox was the quarterback. In that offense, the quarterback is expected to stand in the pocket, and spread the ball around, using quick throws. It was an ideal offense for a quarterback like Maddox, but it doesn’t suit the skill-set of Ben Roethlisberger, nor would it have been good for Bradshaw, since we’re talking about him, too.
During some series of downs, Todd Haley does use the “Marty Ball” run-run-pass, but that’s not all that he does. In the final Cleveland game, the Todd Haley offense looked a little better. That’s not saying a lot against a team like the Browns, but it probably was enough to ensure him a second season as the Steelers OC. By next season, they will have made some player changes on offense, and the remaining players will have had more time to work on things. It’s a wait-and-see as to whether the Todd Haley offense comes around, or remains a flop.
This whole Todd Haley thing reminds me of the time when the Rooneys forced Chuck Knoll to take on Joe Walton as his offensive coordinator. The Walton passing offense was a complete change from the Tom Moore offense that had been in place for a while. The Steelers didn’t have the players to run the Walton offense, and the team didn’t pick it up. Of course, a lot of the problem was on Walton, because the offense was too complex for a football team to remember, and run. It had dozens of formations, and hundreds of plays. The Joe Walton stint with the Steelers is a story unto itself, but the situation is similar to what we have now with Todd Haley and it could end the same way, as a big mistake.

Hawaii 5-0
01-01-2013, 11:00 PM
Arians offense was always near the top in the league in TOP - that was always a manufactured problem by the fans.

true, it was Arians' failure to score TDs once we got into the red zone that was the problem.

wootawnee
01-02-2013, 05:03 AM
Bradshaw hated Pittsburgh because, in 1970, the city smelled so horrible from all the local steel mills......That would make any normal country boy wanna puke.....It was not as we know it today......

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 05:29 AM
i also concur. You are exactly correct. The fact is - Ben is a better QB than Bradshaw was. I can't even imagine the kind of numbers and victories Ben would have put up with that team around him.
I like the history of Bradshaw here and he's a legend - but all this crying about Terry is ridiculous. He was absolutely hated here - all the way up to and including his retirement.

Bradshaw played 13 seasons. He had the best total defense in 2 of them.

Roethlisberger has played 9 seasons. He had the best total defense in 5 of them.

Roethlisberger has had 9 seasons with a top 10 defense. Bradshaw had 8 seasons with a top 10 defense. Roethlisberger had the better defense.

Bradshaw played 13 seasons. He had a top 10 offense 11 times. Bradshaw led the best offense in the NFL in 1979.

Roethlisberger has played 9 seasons. Roethlisberger has had a top 10 offense twice. He has never had a top 5 offense while Bradshaw led 5.

If you took away the 2 qbs awkward first years Bradshaw has a top 10 offense in 11 of 11 seasons and Ben has a top 10 offense in 1 of 7 seasons.

Keep telling me Ben is better than Terry.

Let's be honest about the talent difference between Bradshaw's teams and Ben's teams- it isn't much!

If you think Harris, Swann and Stallworth are light years ahead of Bettis, Miller and Ward then by all means- shit on the names of the players that brought the Steelers back to glory in SB XL and XLIII... it's what everyone else does... all in the name of Ben.

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 05:38 AM
true, it was Arians' failure to score TDs once we got into the red zone that was the problem.

Haley's offense was better in the red zone. 55% of Steelers redzone possessions resulted in TDs vs 50% last year, 52% year before that and 48% the year before that.

This year the big winners in redzone scoring were GB, NE, and NO. They were 10% better than everyone else and all above 68%- that is a huge margin. I don't know what it is about those teams. They keep popping up over and over at the top of every offensive statistical category. Must be their great coordinators that make all the difference. We should hire those coordinators!

plenewken
01-02-2013, 07:15 AM
Do you even read your own posts. first you state other Qbs sustain drives, yet after 9 games Ben was leading the league in 3rd down conversion, that is sustaining drives.

Leading the league in 3rd attempts to win 10yds means nothing to me, except that we can't move the chains sooner, either due to penalties, poor execution or poor play calling



So Ben and a team that at one time was 2nd in the league in TOP and 3rd down conversions could not sustain drives(BTW they were 2nd in TOP last year too). You want to down Ben for a lack of run game but you admit we did not have the tools necessary. You on a roll again, sorry I went yo bed, I could of had a field day with this kind of reasoning.

TOP is more an indication of defensive performance than O performance, particularly if TOP doesn't translate into pts scored. This is easily demonstrated by the rankings of the Steeler's O and D.

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 07:47 AM
we'd all like to see a more aggressive offense - this requires 3 things

1. The OC has to realize the strengths and weaknesses of his talent
2. The line, TEs, RBs, WRs need to learn and own their roles
3. The QB needs to buy into the system first and foremost. You cannot ask the other 10 players to perfectly improvise and in complete sync with what the QB MIGHT do next .

If you're talking about playing to strengths ,the QB needs to understand that going through progressions is also playing to the strengths of each type of receiver / rb- it is as much about what is going to work for them because he can't throw a pass or hand off to himself. The line can't be expected to block for 7-10 seconds - any line would look awful and get exposed - because the game isn't built for block, turn around and see what the QB is doing next, and try to adjust. You have to have designed plays. If they break down on a regular basis - then its a breakdown of understanding the system and being in sync - not the system itself. It doesn't matter what offense is implemented - it can win you a SB if you are willing to perfect it with all minds involved.

If the QB wants to rely on improv, there is a good chance that someone will not be reading his mind, wondering where he will pull the play out of, and in what direction. There needs to be a belief in a system first, then work on what happens next if the play breaks down. If they want to grow, there has to be a system that you rely on, otherwise, absolutely everything relies on improv - and that flat out doesn't cut it. You cannot win on guts alone for a long, consistent stretch of time. It can get you a big win here or there, but you'll never get a consistent, scoring offense going. That is where we are with this offense.

Ricco Suavez
01-02-2013, 09:25 AM
Bradshaw played 13 seasons. He had the best total defense in 2 of them.

Roethlisberger has played 9 seasons. He had the best total defense in 5 of them.

Roethlisberger has had 9 seasons with a top 10 defense. Bradshaw had 8 seasons with a top 10 defense. Roethlisberger had the better defense.

Bradshaw played 13 seasons. He had a top 10 offense 11 times. Bradshaw led the best offense in the NFL in 1979.

Roethlisberger has played 9 seasons. Roethlisberger has had a top 10 offense twice. He has never had a top 5 offense while Bradshaw led 5.

If you took away the 2 qbs awkward first years Bradshaw has a top 10 offense in 11 of 11 seasons and Ben has a top 10 offense in 1 of 7 seasons.

Keep telling me Ben is better than Terry.

Let's be honest about the talent difference between Bradshaw's teams and Ben's teams- it isn't much!

If you think Harris, Swann and Stallworth are light years ahead of Bettis, Miller and Ward then by all means- shit on the names of the players that brought the Steelers back to glory in SB XL and XLIII... it's what everyone else does... all in the name of Ben.

Bradshaw was allowed to take chances, thus his low completion rate, and his 1-1 ratio of TD to INTs, But the biggest reason the offense was so good and its the same thing that has hampered this team for years is the lack of a running game and in recent years the lack of creating turnovers.

Now I will just look at Terrys first 9 seasons(cause we do not know the future of Bens) and since you want to Cherry Pick and eliminate their first two seasons( very fair since Ben was 15-1 as a rookie and lead the team to the Superbbowl the second) of which the 70 and 71 Steelers were 21st and 17th of 26 teams at that time.

Lets look at the rushing we had starting in 72-78
Offense rank# Yards Rush Att. AVG Pass Att
72 #2 2520 497 5.1 324
73 #4 2143 555 3.9 309
74 #6 2417 546 4.4 386
75 #5 2633 581 4.5 337
76 #5 2971 653 4.5 192
77 #7 2258 581 3.9 314
78 #5 2297 641 3.6 368

Wow, just Wow, no wonder we had great teams back then we dominated the OL and had Backs who could get you yards, one year almost 3000 yards and all in 14 game season other than 78. Oh BTW in the 73 season the Steelers attempted 309 passes but Bradshaw only had 180, and the 74 season Bradshaw had 148 attempts , Gilliom and Hanratty were being tried out at times.

Easy to see why Terry LED a team in offense, I mean he called all those running plays and then after that it was 50-50 that it was going to be a catch or miss, or TD or INT. I watched those games every chance i could, I was not in Pittsburgh or in the region to watch every game, but we had papers and the occasionally game, I love Terry but to sugar coat his career to shed bad light on Ben is grasping for straws. TB was part of a great team, But just like today while other QB can do more than Ben it was so in the 70's. When we get a dominate OL and RBs we can return to the glory days of the 70's until then Ben will have to carry the load since there is no running game to speak of. BTW not much difference in Terrys team and Bens is there other than the lack of a run game.

Ricco Suavez
01-02-2013, 09:29 AM
Leading the league in 3rd attempts to win 10yds means nothing to me, except that we can't move the chains sooner, either due to penalties, poor execution or poor play calling



TOP is more an indication of defensive performance than O performance, particularly if TOP doesn't translate into pts scored. This is easily demonstrated by the rankings of the Steeler's O and D.

Moving the chains on 3rd down mean nothing to you, that explains it all. This league is about many things but two of the most important(something any coach, player, sportscaster, and I might add knowledgeable fan know) is you convert 3rd downs and stay on the field ,while the defense job is too get off the field by creating TO or stops on 3rd down. Football 101

VictoryFormation
01-02-2013, 12:28 PM
Bradshaw hated Pittsburgh because, in 1970, the city smelled so horrible from all the local steel mills......That would make any normal country boy wanna puke.....It was not as we know it today...

LOL... If the mills were still open today, they would have a special wing at the Allegheny Cemetery for all the uppity, bicyclists that got crushed by dump trucks, carrying slag.

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 12:50 PM
Bradshaw was allowed to take chances, thus his low completion rate, and his 1-1 ratio of TD to INTs, But the biggest reason the offense was so good and its the same thing that has hampered this team for years is the lack of a running game and in recent years the lack of creating turnovers.

Now I will just look at Terrys first 9 seasons(cause we do not know the future of Bens) and since you want to Cherry Pick and eliminate their first two seasons( very fair since Ben was 15-1 as a rookie and lead the team to the Superbbowl the second) of which the 70 and 71 Steelers were 21st and 17th of 26 teams at that time.

Lets look at the rushing we had starting in 72-78
Offense rank# Yards Rush Att. AVG Pass Att
72 #2 2520 497 5.1 324
73 #4 2143 555 3.9 309
74 #6 2417 546 4.4 386
75 #5 2633 581 4.5 337
76 #5 2971 653 4.5 192
77 #7 2258 581 3.9 314
78 #5 2297 641 3.6 368

Wow, just Wow, no wonder we had great teams back then we dominated the OL and had Backs who could get you yards, one year almost 3000 yards and all in 14 game season other than 78. Oh BTW in the 73 season the Steelers attempted 309 passes but Bradshaw only had 180, and the 74 season Bradshaw had 148 attempts , Gilliom and Hanratty were being tried out at times.

Easy to see why Terry LED a team in offense, I mean he called all those running plays and then after that it was 50-50 that it was going to be a catch or miss, or TD or INT. I watched those games every chance i could, I was not in Pittsburgh or in the region to watch every game, but we had papers and the occasionally game, I love Terry but to sugar coat his career to shed bad light on Ben is grasping for straws. TB was part of a great team, But just like today while other QB can do more than Ben it was so in the 70's. When we get a dominate OL and RBs we can return to the glory days of the 70's until then Ben will have to carry the load since there is no running game to speak of. BTW not much difference in Terrys team and Bens is there other than the lack of a run game.

I don't know why you are tearing down Terry to build Ben up. The poor guy worked within his team doing the best he could to get 4 superbowls and he never consistently had as good a defense as Ben's.

You failed to list the only season where the Steelers were first in scoring and yards, 1979. Terry was second in passing by less than 300 yards to Coryell's famous "Air Coryell" Chargers putting up 3655 yards. The rushing offense added 2603 yards also good for second best. The offense was first in total yards and points with 26 per game.

The only time in Steelers history they have led the NFL in total yards or points and they did it in the same year! The greatest Steelers offense ever! Ter-ry! Ter-ry! Ter-ry!

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 12:57 PM
I don't know why you are tearing down Terry to build Ben up. The poor guy worked within his team doing the best he could to get 4 superbowls and he never consistently had as good a defense as Ben's.

You failed to list the only season where the Steelers were first in scoring and yards, 1979. Terry was second in passing by less than 300 yards to Coryell's famous "Air Coryell" Chargers putting up 3655 yards. The rushing offense added 2603 yards also good for second best. The offense was first in total yards and points with 26 per game.

The only time in Steelers history they have led the NFL in total yards or points and they did it in the same year! The greatest Steelers offense ever! Ter-ry! Ter-ry! Ter-ry!

Ben has more talent and ability than Terry ever had - and that is saying a lot, because Terry was in fact one of the best ever.

Come on Ben . . . roll up that Rosetta Stone . . .it'll open your mind, maaaan . . .

Ricco Suavez
01-02-2013, 01:35 PM
Hey now just because I used Terry to show that Ben does not have ALL the talent around him, make no mistake Terry Bradshaw was talented, it was just a different time and a different game, (thanks Goodell) Terry did what he had to to win, Chuck Noll was an original hard nose HC , who believed in hardnosed football. While Terry was erratic at times, made some bone head plays, and like I said leave you scratching your head, he would pull out some of the most beautiful deep passes to strike quick. We were a pounder of the rock as the numbers show , but Terry was able to hit enough of those deep beauties to keep most defenses honest. And Lloyd it was not intention to tear down Terry, I was making a point that we were a different kind of team then and while I enjoyed those years and would love to see them again I do not believe another team can duplicate that style with that kind of success. Bashers of Ben do not view his body of work with any kind of rationale when comparing Ben to Terry. For example Jack Lambert was my favorite Steeler (surprised a bunch with that statement I bet) But to compare him to a Timmons or Woodley would not be fair to any party. Lambert was undersized but had the heart of a warrior, yet I wonder if today if he could even make any team, while with Timmons and Woodley size in the 70s would or should of been dominant. Different eras.

4xSBChamps
01-02-2013, 01:44 PM
yeah, Bradshaw may've had a 1:1 ratio of TD to interceptions, and only had a 52% completion rate, but the game was completely different then
I believe Noll's philosophy was 'when you throw the ball, throw it to do-damage', not dunk-n-dink

if Jon Kolb, Sam Davis, Mike Webster, Gerry Mullins & Larry Brown were able to legally hold pass-rushers, Bradshaw would've had more-time to throw the ball accurately

despite the game being much-quicker today, the game was more violent in those days, without fear of reprisals from the League
the hit Larry Cole put on Bradshaw in SB10 would result in instant death (and an extra draft-pick to the Cheatriots*) under Ms. Goodell, had it happened under her watch

after his tumultuous 1974 season (losing his job, and I believe his first marriage dissolved), Bradshaw never complained again, nor drew attention to himself
when Joe Turkey Jones spiked him 1976, Bradshaw kept his mouth shut (no 'near-death' comments were made), re-habbed himself, and helped Kruzek learn the offense

plus, Shanklin, Lewis, Swann & Stallworth ran through the defensive secondary for much of Bradshaw's career with their heads on a swivel, as the bump-n-run was prevalent, and clothes-line hits were common-place
with Bradshaw's rifle-arm, what kind-of numbers do you think those receivers would put-up in today's 'basketball-on-turf' mentality?

Bradshaw, in his prime, would be just as-comfortable and just as-dangerous playing in today's watered-down version of the NFL as Brady, either of Archie's boys, Rogers, Brees, etc.
to think otherwise is foolish

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 01:52 PM
Hey now just because I used Terry to show that Ben does not have ALL the talent around him, make no mistake Terry Bradshaw was talented, it was just a different time and a different game, (thanks Goodell) Terry did what he had to to win, Chuck Noll was an original hard nose HC , who believed in hardnosed football. While Terry was erratic at times, made some bone head plays, and like I said leave you scratching your head, he would pull out some of the most beautiful deep passes to strike quick. We were a pounder of the rock as the numbers show , but Terry was able to hit enough of those deep beauties to keep most defenses honest. And Lloyd it was not intention to tear down Terry, I was making a point that we were a different kind of team then and while I enjoyed those years and would love to see them again I do not believe another team can duplicate that style with that kind of success. Bashers of Ben do not view his body of work with any kind of rationale when comparing Ben to Terry. For example Jack Lambert was my favorite Steeler (surprised a bunch with that statement I bet) But to compare him to a Timmons or Woodley would not be fair to any party. Lambert was undersized but had the heart of a warrior, yet I wonder if today if he could even make any team, while with Timmons and Woodley size in the 70s would or should of been dominant. Different eras.

I think Lambert would have made the team. London Fletcher has the body of a trucker (apologies to present company if I have offended anyone) and he is one of the best lbs in the game. Sam Mills comes to mind as well. Farrior played at 218 and went to the Probowl in 08.

Ricco Suavez
01-02-2013, 02:14 PM
yeah, Bradshaw may've had a 1:1 ratio of TD to interceptions, and only had a 52% completion rate, but the game was completely different then
I believe Noll's philosophy was 'when you throw the ball, throw it to do-damage', not dunk-n-dink

if Jon Kolb, Sam Davis, Mike Webster, Gerry Mullins & Larry Brown were able to legally hold pass-rushers, Bradshaw would've had more-time to throw the ball accurately

despite the game being much-quicker today, the game was more violent in those days, without fear of reprisals from the League
the hit Larry Cole put on Bradshaw in SB10 would result in instant death (and an extra draft-pick to the Cheatriots*) under Ms. Goodell, had it happened under her watch

after his tumultuous 1974 season (losing his job, and I believe his first marriage dissolved), Bradshaw never complained again, nor drew attention to himself
when Joe Turkey Jones spiked him 1976, Bradshaw kept his mouth shut (no 'near-death' comments were made), re-habbed himself, and helped Kruzek learn the offense

plus, Shanklin, Lewis, Swann & Stallworth ran through the defensive secondary for much of Bradshaw's career with their heads on a swivel, as the bump-n-run was prevalent, and clothes-line hits were common-place
with Bradshaw's rifle-arm, what kind-of numbers do you think those receivers would put-up in today's 'basketball-on-turf' mentality?

Bradshaw, in his prime, would be just as-comfortable and just as-dangerous playing in today's watered-down version of the NFL as Brady, either of Archie's boys, Rogers, Brees, etc.
to think otherwise is foolish

like I said, different eras, no way to accurately compare Ben to Terry or vice versa. With Ben having the running game and the OL of Terry team I am sure his numbers would not ha luster of today in yards, TDs, and percentage.. While on the other hand Terry would not benefit from the protection of that quality of OL and the ability to run the ball. I do not hesitate to think that both could of interchanged and had a successful career.

wootawnee
01-21-2013, 04:08 PM
Ben has more talent and ability than Terry ever had - and that is saying a lot, because Terry was in fact one of the best ever.

Come on Ben . . . roll up that Rosetta Stone . . .it'll open your mind, maaaan . . .

Dude this post is a joke...Brad coulda been a NFL running back...He ran a 4.5 40.... Ben's arm is nothing like Terry's was..... You obviously never watched Terry play....... Terry used to set up defenses in his prime.....Called his own plays.........Oh yea, in the big dance, Terry is 4-0 Ben 2-1.... Come on man....

steelfury02
01-21-2013, 04:19 PM
Dude this post is a joke...Brad coulda been a NFL running back...He ran a 4.5 40.... Ben's arm is nothing like Terry's was..... You obviously never watched Terry play....... Terry used to set up defenses in his prime.....Called his own plays.........Oh yea, in the big dance, Terry is 4-0 Ben 2-1.... Come on man....

"Dude"

"Come on Man"

Anything else you'd like to respond to 19 days from now?

FrancoLambert
01-21-2013, 04:36 PM
Terry- 4 Super Bowls with highly contributory play in 3 of them.
Ben - 2 Super bowls with highly contributory play in 1, mediocre in the other.

Terry - much better deep ball (distance and accuracy).

Terry - called his own plays within Noll's framework.
Ben - doesn't get the freedom Terry did, but if he did what would you expect?

Toughness - even and both are two of the toughest ever to play QB.

Rising to the occassion - edge to Terry, 4-0 in the SB, hard to ignore the significance of this. It's a big credential he has over Ben.

Sure Terry had the better supporting cast but his performances in XIII and XIV seals it.

Overall, Terry's the better QB. No myth there.

Dino 6 Rings
01-21-2013, 04:49 PM
Terry- 4 Super Bowls with highly contributory play in 3 of them.
Ben - 2 Super bowls with highly contributory play in 1, mediocre in the other.

Terry - much better deep ball (distance and accuracy).

Terry - called his own plays within Noll's framework.
Ben - doesn't get the freedom Terry did, but if he did what would you expect?

Toughness - even and both are two of the toughest ever to play QB.

Rising to the occassion - edge to Terry, 4-0 in the SB, hard to ignore the significance of this. It's a big credential he has over Ben.

Sure Terry had the better supporting cast but his performances in XIII and XIV seals it.

Overall, Terry's the better QB. No myth there.

what he said

TRH
01-21-2013, 06:01 PM
They always turn "more" into a legend either when they retire or if they die.

You could argue both sides. Whether he was an average QB with a unbelievable team around him or a great QB.
I've heard both sides thoroughly and have watched all the games. Personally, i feel he was a good QB with a ridiculous, unheard of team around him. He was not well liked around Pittsburgh until well after he retired. Then he turned into "legend".
I think Ben's the better QB, but they were and are both great ones in their own way. People should just be proud to have them as a part of our team & history instead of arguing and throwing unnecessary stones.

Steelers5895
01-21-2013, 06:02 PM
Honestly, I think every team is expected to win it all every year. This is why the Raiders have a new HC every year; why the Niners had different OC for Alex Smith 4 or 5 years in a row; why I expect Jerry Jones to fire Jason Garrett or Tony Romo after this season etc.

I agree that Steelers fans are a spoiled bunch, myself included, but it is amazing to me how blind people are to Roethlisberger's innumerable faults. Seems to me the fans get a whipping boy (this year Wallace or Mendenhall) and stick to him.

Realistically, Woodley should have gotten more heat than anyone. At least we know Harrison is old coming off back/knee surgery.

wow you are a Ben Hater. He was having his best statistical year and we were in the playoffs when he got hurt. What on earth are you talking about?

Steelers5895
01-21-2013, 06:06 PM
Terry- 4 Super Bowls with highly contributory play in 3 of them.
Ben - 2 Super bowls with highly contributory play in 1, mediocre in the other.

Terry - much better deep ball (distance and accuracy).

Terry - called his own plays within Noll's framework.
Ben - doesn't get the freedom Terry did, but if he did what would you expect?

Toughness - even and both are two of the toughest ever to play QB.

Rising to the occassion - edge to Terry, 4-0 in the SB, hard to ignore the significance of this. It's a big credential he has over Ben.

Sure Terry had the better supporting cast but his performances in XIII and XIV seals it.

Overall, Terry's the better QB. No myth there.

Terry was surrounded by Hall of Famers and had the best defense in history. So, when he made some ridiculous plays, like in Super Bowl 14, his defense bailed him out.

Ben has no hall of famers, maybe Ward, maybe Bettis on offense and a good defense that rarely takes over games or bails him out.

desertsteel
01-21-2013, 06:08 PM
I don't know why you are tearing down Terry to build Ben up. The poor guy worked within his team doing the best he could to get 4 superbowls and he never consistently had as good a defense as Ben's.


Are you serious??? Are you really saying that the current defense is better than the Steel Curtain??? Mind = blown.

Dino 6 Rings
01-21-2013, 07:53 PM
Back to back Super Bowl MVP is Legend, not myth.

Atlanta Dan
01-21-2013, 08:05 PM
Check out Bradshaw's Super Bowl stat line - that is when it matters

lloydwoodson
01-21-2013, 08:28 PM
Are you serious??? Are you really saying that the current defense is better than the Steel Curtain??? Mind = blown.

No I am not saying the 2012 defense is better than the 1978 defense. What I am saying is that Roethlisberger has had a consistently better defense than Bradshaw did.

Bradshaw played for 13 seasons. He had 6 defenses in the top 5 in scoring and 6 defenses in the top 5 in yards.

Roethlisberger has played for 9 seasons. He has had 6 defenses in the top 5 in scoring and 7 defenses in the top 5 in yards.

I feel like I'm repeating myself I must have said that earlier in this post. Bradshaw had an average defense at the beginning and end of his career. Roethlisberger has never had anything but a top 10 defense.

I know the current defense doesn't have a fancy name but maybe if I start calling it the "Super-duperest-bestest-defense-ever!" it will get some credit around these here parts.

The 2008 and 2010 defenses were some of the best Steeler defenses. Only 1 or 2 70s defenses were better.

Dino 6 Rings
01-22-2013, 11:46 AM
Everyone always tries to cut down Bradshaw's greatness by saying "yeah but he played with all those hall of fame players"

Well if not for Terry being the QB, those guys wouldn't have 4 rings and some of them might not be HOF Players. Sure, Greene and Lambert would most likely still be considered HOF Players, and Maybe Blount...but Stallworth and Swann? No.

Franco, sure, his career numbers help in that regard but the 4 Rings are what got him in the HOF with his one SB MVP. Franco wasn't even considered the greatest back of his era. That would be OJ Simpson. and then, Earl Campbell in the late 70s. Franco never lead the league in Rushing, sure he split carries with Rocky, but still, he was never considered the greatest at the time he played.

Of all the players on the 70s Steelers, are any considered the "greatest ever" at their position? Is Lambert the greatest LB of all time? Have fun arguing that. What about Blount? Best DB Ever? Lots of people wouldn't even put in him in the top 3 of all time as a DB. What about the WRs? Neither would be in the HOF without the rings and it took a lot of politics to get them in. Once Swann got in, that helped John. Is Mean Joe the greatest D Lineman of all time? Maybe, you could actually have some fun arguing that. But the reality is, these guys were all collectively great, but playing with one another is what made the team great.

I'm tired of that argument being used to cut down the greatness that was and is Terry Bradshaw. Was Terry kind of aloof and sometimes come across as a prick? Sure, the Blonde Bomber has his moments of being an a-hole, but so what? He won when it mattered the most, he made clutch throws when it mattered the most, he was leader on a team that went 4-0 in 6 years in the SB and is always cut down for playing on a team with other "greats". Why does every other QB get credit for making those around him "better" yet everyone seems to try and say the "greats" around Terry propped him up? Its Bull Crap. Terry is one of the greatest QBs to ever play the game, his deep ball was second to none, his clutch throws are second to none, his leadership on the field and desire to be a winner is second to none.

for the record, I'm a huge Terry fan so my perspective may be a little bias.

lloydwoodson
01-22-2013, 12:41 PM
Terry Bradshaw is still the only Steeler to be league MVP. That should count for something shouldn't it? He can't be all bad can he?

I hear you Dino. It is pretty ridiculous the lengths people will go to in destroying someone else's hero to build up their own.

I don't think there has ever been any player who consistently played above their norm in big games like Terry did.

wootawnee
01-22-2013, 01:42 PM
Pittsburgh was the shithole of the NFL back then......None of these guys were HOF'ers , they were just players....... The fans in PItt didnt expect titles, they just hated on everybody back then cause thats all they had, they never won s*&t.....The first dude through the door always gets shit on him, thats why that door is so hard to break down......And beleive me, that was a shitty door......The whole mis-perception about Bradshaw is hindsight, and if we never won, would not have been talked about.....It would have been just another failure of a QB.......
.

FrancoLambert
01-22-2013, 04:01 PM
Everyone always tries to cut down Bradshaw's greatness by saying "yeah but he played with all those hall of fame players"

Well if not for Terry being the QB, those guys wouldn't have 4 rings and some of them might not be HOF Players. Sure, Greene and Lambert would most likely still be considered HOF Players, and Maybe Blount...but Stallworth and Swann? No.

Franco, sure, his career numbers help in that regard but the 4 Rings are what got him in the HOF with his one SB MVP. Franco wasn't even considered the greatest back of his era. That would be OJ Simpson. and then, Earl Campbell in the late 70s. Franco never lead the league in Rushing, sure he split carries with Rocky, but still, he was never considered the greatest at the time he played.

Of all the players on the 70s Steelers, are any considered the "greatest ever" at their position? Is Lambert the greatest LB of all time? Have fun arguing that. What about Blount? Best DB Ever? Lots of people wouldn't even put in him in the top 3 of all time as a DB. What about the WRs? Neither would be in the HOF without the rings and it took a lot of politics to get them in. Once Swann got in, that helped John. Is Mean Joe the greatest D Lineman of all time? Maybe, you could actually have some fun arguing that. But the reality is, these guys were all collectively great, but playing with one another is what made the team great.

I'm tired of that argument being used to cut down the greatness that was and is Terry Bradshaw. Was Terry kind of aloof and sometimes come across as a prick? Sure, the Blonde Bomber has his moments of being an a-hole, but so what? He won when it mattered the most, he made clutch throws when it mattered the most, he was leader on a team that went 4-0 in 6 years in the SB and is always cut down for playing on a team with other "greats". Why does every other QB get credit for making those around him "better" yet everyone seems to try and say the "greats" around Terry propped him up? Its Bull Crap. Terry is one of the greatest QBs to ever play the game, his deep ball was second to none, his clutch throws are second to none, his leadership on the field and desire to be a winner is second to none.

for the record, I'm a huge Terry fan so my perspective may be a little bias.

I don't think your biased at all. :applaudit:
I think you're very objective when comparing Terry and Ben. :tap:
Your summary of Bradshaw's often de-valued excellence was excellent. :hatsoff:

Ricco Suavez
01-22-2013, 04:19 PM
I am a big Bradshaw fan and will be til I die. With that said Terry had the BEST O-line in the game, the running game that goes with such a line and while the defense may not have ranked consistently in the top five they were consistently either tops or near the top in Turnovers. Terry threw nearly as many Interceptions as TDs. He had more HOFamers around him than Ben will ever have. Comparing Apples to Oranges gentlemen. I watched both and the only thing Terry has on Ben is the deep ball. Sorry not going to change my mind by downplaying Bens play or his superior defense.

lloydwoodson
01-22-2013, 10:14 PM
I am a big Bradshaw fan and will be til I die. With that said Terry had the BEST O-line in the game, the running game that goes with such a line and while the defense may not have ranked consistently in the top five they were consistently either tops or near the top in Turnovers. Terry threw nearly as many Interceptions as TDs. He had more HOFamers around him than Ben will ever have. Comparing Apples to Oranges gentlemen. I watched both and the only thing Terry has on Ben is the deep ball. Sorry not going to change my mind by downplaying Bens play or his superior defense.

Average passer ratings by decade:

•1940s—47.9
•1950s—59.0
•1960s—69.4
•1970s—65.1
•1980s—74.4
•1990s—77.2
•2000s—80.5

As you can see, the 1970s were a bad time to be a quarterback. Comparing one individual vs another player from a different era does not work.

My personal criteria for determining a quarterback's worth is their team's offensive production. The list of quarterbacks who have led a number one scoring offense is a very impressive one: Montana, Marino, P Manning, Young, Rodgers, Brees, Favre, Baugh, Graham, Staubach, Fouts, Elway, Starr etc... and Bradshaw.

Not every quarterback who has led the best offense in the league is an all-time great but every all-time great has led the best offense in the league at one point or another.

lloydwoodson
01-22-2013, 10:17 PM
On a side note: my favourite quarterback of all time is Steve Young and he led the league's number one offense for four years in a row! Attaboy Steve!

harrison'samonster
01-22-2013, 10:18 PM
On a side note: my favourite quarterback of all time is Steve Young and he led the league's number one offense for four years in a row! Attaboy Steve!

Steve Young was good, but I'd still take Steve McNair. Don't laugh.

lloydwoodson
01-23-2013, 02:58 AM
Steve Young was good, but I'd still take Steve McNair. Don't laugh.

McNair was a decent quarterback. I find your unique choice of quarterback refreshing. I can guarantee you did not get to that way of thinking by watching NFL Network or ESPN. You aren't an Alcorn State alumnus by any chance are you? :wink02:

I liked Young not because of his scrambling but because of his competitiveness. I remember a play where he lost his helmet avoiding a sack and still ran ahead for more yards (like a 5 yard gain or something) and dove face first no helmet to get additional yardage. Not bad for a smallish Mormon lawyer. :sofunny:

VaDave
01-23-2013, 06:58 AM
Bradshaw could not spell CAT if they spotted him the C and the A. Hanratty and Gillom were both touted as better QBs then TB. Just a couple of he sentiments of the time. Terry did not put up outstanding numbers, his defense was arguably the greatest ever, his OL was loaded with HOFers, and his RBs and Wrs were some of the all time best, and he received more than his share of criticism. Terry was not truly loved til he was gone and then his career was appreciated by the media and the fans. I still love to see video when he threw the long ball,(the strongest part of his game IMO) it was a thing of beauty.


HOF OL??? He had one player that made it, Webster. While they developed in to a very productive unit, the last time I checked Pinney, Mullins, Davis, Clack, Kolb, Gravelle, and Courson, are not exatly locks for entry.

Terry did get a bad wrap because back in those days when you started out the season, it was all about getting your running attack going. You couldn't win in the NFL without it. His completion percentage early in his career was not good , and too many of his completions went to the wrong team.

Keep in mind, he was playing on a team that had only sniffed a playoff twice in 40 years of observation. Bradshaw was a high draft pick that was expected to make an impact, much like Joe Greene did the year before.

What they got was a loose cannon of a QB that needed seasoning. Well, Noll salted the crap out of Terry until he could count on him. Then he salted him some more....... No wonder he had bad recollections. He was practically pickled by the time Superbowl 9 came along.

As for exceptance in the Burgh, keep in mind, this was a town that never appreciated Roberto Clemente, who was an altime great, without a doubt the best player I've ever seen in over 55 years of following sports.

VaDave
01-23-2013, 07:04 AM
IMO, Terry's best body of work were the 4 fourth quarters of each of his SuperBowl wins. Go back and watch them. Only the 4th quarters. His performannce there was his ticket to the Hall.

harrison'samonster
01-23-2013, 07:24 AM
McNair was a decent quarterback. I find your unique choice of quarterback refreshing. I can guarantee you did not get to that way of thinking by watching NFL Network or ESPN. You aren't an Alcorn State alumnus by any chance are you? :wink02:

I liked Young not because of his scrambling but because of his competitiveness. I remember a play where he lost his helmet avoiding a sack and still ran ahead for more yards (like a 5 yard gain or something) and dove face first no helmet to get additional yardage. Not bad for a smallish Mormon lawyer. :sofunny:

I always thought McNair could make any throw, and he like Steve Young was always putting his own body on the line. I'm sure my opinion of him was affected by seeing him twice a year back when Tennessee was in our division.

Come to think of it they are both like Roethlisberger in that they could do a lot after a play broke down.

wootawnee
01-23-2013, 11:36 PM
I am a big Bradshaw fan and will be til I die. With that said Terry had the BEST O-line in the game, the running game that goes with such a line and while the defense may not have ranked consistently in the top five they were consistently either tops or near the top in Turnovers. Terry threw nearly as many Interceptions as TDs. He had more HOFamers around him than Ben will ever have. Comparing Apples to Oranges gentlemen. I watched both and the only thing Terry has on Ben is the deep ball. Sorry not going to change my mind by downplaying Bens play or his superior defense.

The Raiders probably had a better O-line than the Steelers in the 70's-80's...

VaDave
01-24-2013, 07:40 AM
The Raiders probably had a better O-line than the Steelers in the 70's-80's...

Debatable. Upshaw and Shell with Otto and Dalby @ center were formiddable no doubt. Iit was the other two on the right side that typically not quite as good. The way our lines worked was quite a bit different .

Raiders ran the power plays, and sweeps, while we ran the quick traps and counters. Our line play was much more intricate and timing was critical more so that the Raiders.

One other point of consideration was that the Raiders were a right handed running to take advantage of Upshaw pulling ability. The Steelers were left handed to take advantage of Gerry Mullins pulling.

What made us dangerous was with Davis @ LG, we could run the the traps to both sides of center, and flip flop the counters as well, so the defense couldn't stack one side or the other.

Speaking of linemen, two of my alltime favorite Steeler plays:

The first is Franco's rushing TD in SuperBowl 9 off of Mullin's cut block outside the left tackle box with a very difficult angle t land. Very impressive considering Mullins was playing RG.

The second his Harris TD run up the gut in SperBowl 13. You might remember is at the one where the ref got in the way? Check out RT Ray Pinney here, as he pulls out a head of Franco. The reason the Ref got in the way was he was about to get steamrolled by Pinney and was ducking.

As for Cliff Harris or Charlie Waters ( can remember which), even if that ref wasn't "In the Way" as he still moans about it , Pinney would have launched him into next Tuesday. Finally, notice just how fast Pinney got to the B gap ahead of a sprinting Franco.

wootawnee
01-24-2013, 10:43 AM
That line was in shape.....They were alot lighter than todays guys, but todays guys all got huge guts......Those guys were lean n mean.....Take away the huge guts they have today and I bet they would weigh the same.......I remember those Superbowl plays.....That Superbowl 9 block was awesome....Franco sprinted around it untouched........That 13 run, Franco was pissed.....That dumb-lucky-lottery winning-Ass pissed him off.....Woke up a sleeping giant.....Scored 2x in a few seconds....