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Gnutella
12-31-2012, 04:17 AM
Ben Roethlisberger's 2012 season statistics normalized to 16 games.

lloydwoodson
12-31-2012, 04:26 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t-r2HASo5M

I don't care what a qb does individually. Stat that matters for qbs is how much the team scores. Period.

Steelers had the 21st scoring offense in the league. Sure Haley is calling amazing plays to boost Roethlisberger's stats but Ben needs to put some points on the board!!!

pete74
12-31-2012, 05:18 AM
It dosnt work that way. I his stats are 3265 yards, 26 tds and 8 picks.
Nobody knows if he would of thrown 10 picks or 10 touchdowns in those games

Ricco Suavez
12-31-2012, 10:50 AM
It dosnt work that way. I his stats are 3265 yards, 26 tds and 8 picks.
Nobody knows if he would of thrown 10 picks or 10 touchdowns in those games

I agree Pete. Scoring is much more than the QB play, Lloyd. You and others point out that Ben is not the team, yet you hold him accountable for the scoring woes entirely. Seems like Haley, WR, RBs, the OL,Tomlin, and yes even the defense have to be accountable for the scoring woes. All I can go by is my eyes and for 9 games Ben played as well as any QB could be expected, then the injury and only a 2nd half comeback by Batch prevented losses during all 3 games he was gone. Oakland, Titans, Broncos, Chargers, defense had just as much if not more in those losses. The were not their usual selves those games. I am told I am a Ben apologist, no, I like to think I speak with facts, and sound reasoning, and realize that the NFL is not an easy gig like others believe, people see the money, the lifestyle, the exploits on the field, read the papers, watch the TV, and have no grasp in what it takes to just be an NFL player much less than an elite one. Sorry but this is soon to be 2013 and not the 90s, 70s, or the 60s. The players, the game, has changed (not always for the better) but there is no going back. Its time to except it.

The_Joker
12-31-2012, 10:52 AM
Its time to except it.

*It's
*Accept

Ricco Suavez
12-31-2012, 11:13 AM
*It's
*Accept

And you sir are correct, my error not the forums, I take full responsibility for the miscue or miscues which ever the case may be. I could correct it but will leave it as my legacy to my imperfection. After all the only person expected to be perfect is the Steeler QB, and the head coach, and the OC, and the GM, and the, no, LeBeau gets a lifetime pass, he never makes a mistake,(but to be honest is the best).

Bayz101
12-31-2012, 11:13 AM
*It's
*Accept

:noidea:

I could understand the "accept" correction, but an apostrophe?!

THAT'S trollin'. :sofunny:

harrison'samonster
12-31-2012, 11:21 AM
I could understand the "accept" correction, but an apostrophe?!


the standard is the standard!

Millers the sh!t
12-31-2012, 11:22 AM
Ben Roethlisberger's 2012 season statistics normalized to 16 games.

0/0 0 yards 0 td 0 int. Bens playoffs stats this year. Superbowl included.

torpedoshell31
12-31-2012, 11:22 AM
Another good solid season by Ben. If he doesn't get hurt in the Chief's game who knows how things would have turned out. However, the last minute drives when he usually won the game weren't there for the most part this year.

Bayz101
12-31-2012, 11:24 AM
0/0 0 yards 0 td 0 int. Bens playoffs stats this year. Superbowl included.

Can't win one every year. :chuckle:

Bayz101
12-31-2012, 11:25 AM
Another good solid season by Ben. If he doesn't get hurt in the Chief's game who knows how things would have turned out. However, the last minute drives when he usually won the game weren't there for the most part this year.

He actually led two game-winning drives this year. Maybe three, actually, haven't went back and looked.

Bayz101
12-31-2012, 11:28 AM
Just went back and looked, and the number is three. One against Philadelphia, another against Cincinnati and the final one against the Giants. The Eagles and Giants games we're also fourth-quarter comebacks.

Ricco Suavez
12-31-2012, 11:28 AM
:noidea:

I could understand the "accept" correction, but an apostrophe?!

THAT'S trollin'. :sofunny:

Let him have his fun Bayz, English was not my best subject. I know this is a forum and while the rules are loose as far as spelling and punctuation, I try to adhere to some semblance to the written word. I find myself opening other tabs to spell words at times. Its like I told my son when he got into the habit of constantly using 4 letter words, "the only one who comes off looking stupid is you, if you wish to succeed in a professional environment, then you can't use coarse language in your everyday conversations." Not that most us do not use that kind of talk from time to time but to hear it constantly lends a person to view that person as illiterate. BTW I had to check the spelling of Semblance, Environment, and Illiterate.

rpbncb
12-31-2012, 11:31 AM
IF If If If IF !!!! IF my aunt had _alls she'd be my uncle !!! You if-ers are pathetic !! A complete pile of _hit season as stillers man pointed out. Team needs a complete facelift. Admit it, quit giving free passes and move on !!

Millers the sh!t
12-31-2012, 11:35 AM
Can't win one every year. :chuckle:

I know I know..... I'm just still bitter as grapefruit skins.

Where's Hipchest at? I haven't seen him posting much of anything recently. You were off the radar for a while too. Happy New years bro.

pczach
12-31-2012, 11:38 AM
I can't believe some of you people. You've gotten to see #7 play and win games for this franchise from the first second he stepped foot on the field for the Steelers. For those of you who think he is an average quarterback or worse, your lack of football intellect is not worthy of a response. For those of you who quote statistics as the end-all standard of rating the order of top Qb's in the league, you are not far behind the others.As for the empty line for his playoff performance this year, you are correct. He will not attempt or complete a single pass for a single yard this year. Now why don't you put up Ben's playoff record, his playoff numbers, his come-from-behind and game-winning drives, and his end of game calm that is league-wide legendary, but that has apparantly been unnoticed or forgotten by many spoiled fans here at this forum. :banging:

torpedoshell31
12-31-2012, 11:38 AM
He actually led two game-winning drives this year. Maybe three, actually, haven't went back and looked.

Obviously I don't expect Ben to pull every game out or we would have been 16-0. His track record through the years shows that when the game is on the line he usually finds a way to win. That is why it was so surprising to see the last minute picks against the Cowboys and Bengals and the Broncos in the first game.

fansince'76
12-31-2012, 11:47 AM
Just went back and looked, and the number is three. One against Philadelphia, another against Cincinnati and the final one against the Giants. The Eagles and Giants games we're also fourth-quarter comebacks.

But if he was as awesome as Brady and Manning, we wouldn't have needed comebacks in those games because we would have won by eighty thousand million points! :rolleyes:

NSMaster56
12-31-2012, 11:50 AM
This discussion could go and/or be dissected many different ways.

Did Big Ben have a good season? Yes
Did the O still struggle despite his good season? Yes
If the Steelers had made the playoffs and/or won the SB (Ben 'just won games') would we care about his stats or lackthereof? No
Is it Big Ben's fault that the Steelers O struggled overall? Highly subjective; cases could be made either way
Is it possible for Big Ben to put up gawdy Brees-like numbers, and lead a top-ranked O AND lead the Steelers to a title? Who knows? But probably not. If perfection were that easy everyone would do it.

Lots of players on this team had good individual years that still led to team failure. There is no one person to blame.

In the end players, coaches and fans must be smart enough to not blame one individual, but look at and improve upon the collective.

Yes, team improvement starts with and depends on each individual player, but, in sports, failure, like success, is a group effort.

That what this team needs to remember.

Screw stats. Just win baby.

pete74
12-31-2012, 01:00 PM
Ben is a great QB and were lucky to have him because there are not many in the NFL. I disagree with the members who feel everything is his fault and he isn't a good QB and I also disagree with the members who feel he is the best QB in the NFL and can do no wrong. Ben can't carry a team like Payton Manning, Rodgers and Brady can but he is perfect for us with our tough defense. He gives us chance to win every game he is healthy in and playing.

Unfortunately we can't win the super bowl every year and this was one of our few down years. Every one needs to chill, we will be back next year

GoFor7
12-31-2012, 01:11 PM
The Steelers need to let him win try and win games early next year instead of waiting until the last 2 minutes. Will he put up Manning or Brady numbers? I don't know, but the Steelers went 8-8 playing Marty ball this year.

Maybe it's time for a philosophy change - more points faster. This team killed itself grinding out long drives to only settle for three or see Ben get sacked out of FG range when they easily have capabilities to score quickly. 7 points in 1 minute is better than no points in 8 minutes. And since the Steelers will be forced to get younger on defense this season, there is really no excuse for them to hold the offense back from more quick strikes.

pete74
12-31-2012, 01:14 PM
The Steelers need to let him win try and win games early next year instead of waiting until the last 2 minutes. Will he put up Manning or Brady numbers? I don't know, but the Steelers went 8-8 playing Marty ball this year.

Maybe it's time for a philosophy change - more points faster. This team killed itself grinding out long drives to only settle for three or see Ben get sacked out of FG range when they easily have capabilities to score quickly. 7 points in 1 minute is better than no points in 8 minutes. And since the Steelers will be forced to get younger on defense this season, there is really no excuse for them to hold the offense back from more quick strikes.

I agree they need to put points up earlier but I'm sure they also want to. Brady throws short passes all game and scores a lot. He's doing the same thing we tried, he'll New England even ran more times then us. They just executed better. It's not like the Steelers went trying to score

GoFor7
12-31-2012, 01:24 PM
I agree they need to put points up earlier but I'm sure they also want to. Brady throws short passes all game and scores a lot. He's doing the same thing we tried, he'll New England even ran more times then us. They just executed better. It's not like the Steelers went trying to score

The Patriots are better equipped for the dink-and-dunk than the Steelers are - mainly because of their two big TEs that cause huge match-up problems. If the Steelers had a better #2 TE opposite of Heath, then maybe the Steelers would be better at it. Wallace, Brown, and Sanders aren't dink-and-dunk guys, their speedsters. It makes it even harder on them when Wallace isn't being sent down field to open the other two up. These guys had dropping problems already, and getting trucked by big LBs doesn't help.

The Patriots and the Broncos both ran better than the Steelers because a) they weren't so predictable with their runs, and b) they used a lot of no-huddle. They also aren't so fixated with time of possession - so when their offense scores quickly they aren't worried about getting into a shootout.

FacemeIke
12-31-2012, 01:25 PM
He was an MVP candidate until he got hurt. Not only that but he's QB'd us to 3 super bowls. Anyone who thinks we should get rid of him is a simple minded moron who can't see more than 2 weeks into the past to form a thought.

This Ben talk reminds me of listening to Mike and Mike in the morning. A team can go 14-0, but then if the team loses two in a row those two morons in the morning will start talking about how the 14-2 team shouldn't be in the playoffs.

Bottom line is that there is no way if you take Ben's complete body of work (both this year and over his career) that you should want him gone. I'm not sure that theres even a rational argument for him leaving other than he sucked after coming back from injury.

ricardisimo
12-31-2012, 02:54 PM
*It's
*Accept
You're assuming that he didn't mean "except". I mean, your asuming that he did'nt not mean accept.

OX1947
12-31-2012, 04:06 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t-r2HASo5M

I don't care what a qb does individually. Stat that matters for qbs is how much the team scores. Period.

Steelers had the 21st scoring offense in the league. Sure Haley is calling amazing plays to boost Roethlisberger's stats but Ben needs to put some points on the board!!!

If I could Thank this twice, I would. This might be long, but it is my end of the year rant, if you will.

The issue with the Steelers going into next season is they are unlikely to find a better QB. Pure and simple. So, unless we got lucky getting a rookie QB who turns into Russell Wilson in training camp, Ben is going to be under center next year. Ben is what he is and he doesn't have any goal of adjusting or changing or anything to get better. He wants to be the same and do the same crap every year, every game.

So, with that, expect the typical 10-10 games to all the teams through out the year going into the last 5 min of a game, whether it being the Raiders or Ravens and the Steelers will hope for one little play here or there to determine the W/L.

Ben is too busy bitching and whining about play calls and coaches, all the while I watched one of the best called games with a 38 year old QB in Charlie Batch in the last Ravens game.

Blaming play calling and ASSISTANT coaches for your teams mishaps is a loser excuse, loser mentality and therefore you LOSE in the end when it matters. All the slaps in this forum killed Bruce Arians the last few years about his play calling, attitude, whatever, however, he is coach of the year with a rookie QB and brand new players to an Indy team that completely rebuilt their team in 6 months, and had to deal with their head coach almost dying from cancer.

I thought Devin Hester said it best today, when he found out Lovie Smith got fired, he called out the "Fake fans are happy now", and this from a 10-6 team. The point is, fans have selfish reasons to hate instead of paying attention and using common sense. If Arians was the issue all these years, why did Ben do the same (bleep) crap this year with Todd Haley? Why is Arians successful with a 5 month old QB and not a SB winning QB? Sometimes, you need to wake up and stop playing the high school girl trying to rationalize why another girl is a bitch when she isn't. The root of the problem is usually who you brain tells you but you ignore it to justify some personal likely to the other.

I will be honest, I really have never liked Big Ben, deep down. I am naturally observant to certain personalities. You can learn a lot about someone on how they speak. And it has nothing to do with being mean to the media, or being coy or being boystrous. He has a prissy, cliche, doucheness about him. Tomlin is another guy who's interview make me run to the bathroom, except he does it in a different way. He uses big words with all these one liners. Problem with that is, when you are trying to sound like something that you aren't, it makes you look stupid. At least with Belichick, that is who he is, he is mono-toned, I ain't telling you jack crap and that's the way it is whether he is sleeping, awake or whatever.

My hope for next year, is the Steelers get a healthy back up QB, preferably someone who doesnt shatter after 2 quarters who can come in and win 3 or 4 games during the year. Because Ben is just going to get worse physically the more and more he allows himself to get hit. Shit, even to the pathetic Cleveland team, he still sat back there for 45 min and took sacks.

We will see with Tomlin, where he needs to improve. Little more game planning and less standard talk. We get it, everyone is a pro, no need to through zingers every 2 min in an interview.

My other hope is getting rid of two cancers off the team. And replace them with leaders. As much as it may pain most of you, Ben has NEVER been the leader of the Steelers, ever. The only leaders this team has had are all retired, Farrior, Bettis and Hines. This team does not have that leader right now. We have bitches like Wallace and mental migits likes Mendenhall who speak for the Steelers. Not a good combo. Call me superstitious, call me religious, but I may not know 100% if there is a God, but i damn well believe 100% that there are jinxed people out there. Is it any coincidence that when Wallace started playing like a dickweed, the cancer spread to Brown, Sanders, all these guys who are so reliable. Mendy and his fumbling and bullshit, hit the other RBs at the worst times.

Steelers do not have to fix much, but they need to make the right tweaks and hopefully get an instant game changer with pick 17.

Gnutella
01-01-2013, 06:13 AM
What's funny is, 33 TD passes would only be six fewer than Aaron Rodgers threw this season (39), four fewer than Peyton Manning (37), one fewer than Tom Brady (34), and more than Matt Ryan (32), Tony Romo (28), Eli Manning (26), Philip Rivers (26), Joe Flacco (22), Matt Schaub (22) and Jay Cutler (19).

These are the reasons why the scoring output wasn't that great:


1. Ben Roethlisberger missed three-and-a-half games, and the backup QBs had one whole TD pass between them.

2. Only four teams (Jaguars, Rams, Raiders, Chargers) had fewer TD runs this season than the Steelers did (8).

3. Only two teams (Raiders, Lions) had a lower share of points scored by their defenses and special teams than the Steelers did (97.9%).


Simply put, the scoring problem has nothing to do with the passing game. The Steelers scored 36 TDs this season: eight from the running game, one from the defense, one from a backup QB, zero from the special teams, and 26 from Roethlisberger's arm.

lloydwoodson
01-01-2013, 08:05 AM
I agree they need to put points up earlier but I'm sure they also want to. Brady throws short passes all game and scores a lot. He's doing the same thing we tried, he'll New England even ran more times then us. They just executed better. It's not like the Steelers went trying to score

No he honestly believes the Steelers weren't trying to score. I even graciously pointed out that Haley's "ball control" offense scored more points than Arians' "let Ben be Ben" offense. No dice.

Pointed out Haley's offense was second in the league in passes for more than 20 yards before Ben's injury. No dice.

Pointed out that Arians' offense in Indy with rookie Andrew Luck scored more points than Ben did last year. No dice.

It is still not Ben's fault nor will it ever be.

Roethlisberger has become his hero Elway. You will never convince a Broncos fan that Elway was not the greatest qb ever. Both qbs will have ridden into Canton on the backs of their teammates- Davis or Bettis, Atwater or Polamalu, Smith or Harrison, Sharpe or Miller it is all the same.

pczach
01-01-2013, 08:37 AM
Please name the great offensive linemen in front of Ben. Please list the dominant wide receivers he has had to throw to. Please list the dominant runners he has had to carry things for this team. If you give me an answer to any of these questions, you are lying through your teeth.

You have a team with the #1 defense in football, and you have an elite QB. You also have one of the worst offensive lines in football, average, at best, running backs, and the most overrated corp of receivers in the league. So here's what the great offensive mind did....he built the offense around the running game. Early in the year, they got enough done because Ben was playing at an extremely high level. He led the NFL in 3rd down conversion percentage. Ben was carrying the team in spite of an ineffective running game. He constantly overcame two ineffective runs on third down. And please, don't tell me they threw on first down because they fired a ball behing the line of scrimmage for a WR screen. It counts in the stats, but that is not throwing the ball down field. When Ben got hurt, he came backk not able to carry the team. Other teams started jumping every short route, and some interceptions happened. The Steelers had no other options that worked. It's really not that complicated.

pczach
01-01-2013, 08:56 AM
I also wanted to add that the WR screens are an extention of the running game. What do you need to have these work effectively on a consistent basis. Physical, big wide receivers that can block. Does that sound like our WR corp in any way? They are not played in a way that maximizes their strengths.

And for the record, if Mike Wallace had Hines Ward's heart, he could be a terrific WR. If there is a defender on him with tight coverage, he almost never catches the ball. Even if the DB isn't touching him. He also has horrible ball skills. How many times is he open with the ball in the air, but doesn't adjust to the ball as it falls harmlessly to the ground, Either that or he throws his hands in the air looking for a pass interference call instead of fighting to make the catch. To me it's a complete lack of heart.

austinfrench76
01-01-2013, 07:15 PM
Nice year!!!

zcoop
01-01-2013, 07:52 PM
If I could Thank this twice, I would. This might be long, but it is my end of the year rant, if you will.

The issue with the Steelers going into next season is they are unlikely to find a better QB. Pure and simple. So, unless we got lucky getting a rookie QB who turns into Russell Wilson in training camp, Ben is going to be under center next year. Ben is what he is and he doesn't have any goal of adjusting or changing or anything to get better. He wants to be the same and do the same crap every year, every game.

So, with that, expect the typical 10-10 games to all the teams through out the year going into the last 5 min of a game, whether it being the Raiders or Ravens and the Steelers will hope for one little play here or there to determine the W/L.

Ben is too busy bitching and whining about play calls and coaches, all the while I watched one of the best called games with a 38 year old QB in Charlie Batch in the last Ravens game.

Blaming play calling and ASSISTANT coaches for your teams mishaps is a loser excuse, loser mentality and therefore you LOSE in the end when it matters. All the slaps in this forum killed Bruce Arians the last few years about his play calling, attitude, whatever, however, he is coach of the year with a rookie QB and brand new players to an Indy team that completely rebuilt their team in 6 months, and had to deal with their head coach almost dying from cancer.

I thought Devin Hester said it best today, when he found out Lovie Smith got fired, he called out the "Fake fans are happy now", and this from a 10-6 team. The point is, fans have selfish reasons to hate instead of paying attention and using common sense. If Arians was the issue all these years, why did Ben do the same (bleep) crap this year with Todd Haley? Why is Arians successful with a 5 month old QB and not a SB winning QB? Sometimes, you need to wake up and stop playing the high school girl trying to rationalize why another girl is a bitch when she isn't. The root of the problem is usually who you brain tells you but you ignore it to justify some personal likely to the other.

I will be honest, I really have never liked Big Ben, deep down. I am naturally observant to certain personalities. You can learn a lot about someone on how they speak. And it has nothing to do with being mean to the media, or being coy or being boystrous. He has a prissy, cliche, doucheness about him. Tomlin is another guy who's interview make me run to the bathroom, except he does it in a different way. He uses big words with all these one liners. Problem with that is, when you are trying to sound like something that you aren't, it makes you look stupid. At least with Belichick, that is who he is, he is mono-toned, I ain't telling you jack crap and that's the way it is whether he is sleeping, awake or whatever.

My hope for next year, is the Steelers get a healthy back up QB, preferably someone who doesnt shatter after 2 quarters who can come in and win 3 or 4 games during the year. Because Ben is just going to get worse physically the more and more he allows himself to get hit. Shit, even to the pathetic Cleveland team, he still sat back there for 45 min and took sacks.

We will see with Tomlin, where he needs to improve. Little more game planning and less standard talk. We get it, everyone is a pro, no need to through zingers every 2 min in an interview.

My other hope is getting rid of two cancers off the team. And replace them with leaders. As much as it may pain most of you, Ben has NEVER been the leader of the Steelers, ever. The only leaders this team has had are all retired, Farrior, Bettis and Hines. This team does not have that leader right now. We have bitches like Wallace and mental migits likes Mendenhall who speak for the Steelers. Not a good combo. Call me superstitious, call me religious, but I may not know 100% if there is a God, but i damn well believe 100% that there are jinxed people out there. Is it any coincidence that when Wallace started playing like a dickweed, the cancer spread to Brown, Sanders, all these guys who are so reliable. Mendy and his fumbling and bullshit, hit the other RBs at the worst times.

Steelers do not have to fix much, but they need to make the right tweaks and hopefully get an instant game changer with pick 17.

Sounds like you visited the Voo Doo lady. :sofunny:

C'mon man.

JeromeBetties63
01-01-2013, 11:41 PM
Big Ben is not this teams problem. Ya, he played poorly down the stretch. It happens. I think he will win at least one more Super Bowl as the QB of the Steelers.

desertsteel
01-01-2013, 11:44 PM
]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t-r2HASo5M


Yes, stats are for losers and cheating is for winners

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 07:09 AM
Please name the great offensive linemen in front of Ben. Please list the dominant wide receivers he has had to throw to. Please list the dominant runners he has had to carry things for this team. If you give me an answer to any of these questions, you are lying through your teeth.


Look at the 2010 roster

RB Mendenhall, Redman, MeMo, Dwyer

WR Ward, Wallace, Sanders, Brown, Battle

TE Miller, Spaeth

That receiving corps is as good as any quarterback needs. Ward, Miller and Brown have all been Probowlers. There is a ton of talent on the team. Wallace was/is a beast and he is a future Probowler with the Steelers or another team. Stop tearing at the Steelers to build Ben up. And let's not forget past Steelers like Holmes, Parker and Bettis.

This offense was built to be a passing offense. The problem is even with Ben throwing 500 times a year they can't break 10th.

The Rooneys are putting the team back on track by trying to get the god damn running game back. The personnel decisions were hijacked to fulfill Arians and Tomlins braindead idea of trying to make Roethlisberger the focal point of the offense/team.

tanda10506
01-02-2013, 08:29 PM
It's hard to say whether Ben should be the focal point of the offense or if it should be getting the running game back. In 2005 Ben had a great running game behind him, so he had to do less, while the running game led the offense. He didn't do as much, but he looked pretty damn good doing what he did. However, in 2008 it was Ben TIME AND TIME AGAIN making a play in the 4th quarter to win the game. He's proven at times that he is Mr. Clutch and that he is all this offense needs. The clutch moments are too many to be mentioned, and the 2009 game where Ben completely disected the Packers defense for over 500 yards comes to mind when the question of "can he lead the team like Brady/Manning" is asked. Yet lately he is looking like he can't do it when it matters most, and has had a terrible offense for 2 years in a row.

Ben may win as much as the elite QB's, but the elite QB's never have 20th ranked offense's, especially not with the WR/TE options we have. This question always comes up and I've always been on the side arguing that Ben is as great as ANY other QB, but I think after these last two years, it's more of a fair assessment to say that he is capable of playing as great OR GREATER then any other QB at times, yet he is not elite on a regular basis.

GoFor7
01-02-2013, 08:36 PM
It's hard to say whether Ben should be the focal point of the offense or if it should be getting the running game back. In 2005 Ben had a great running game behind him, so he had to do less. He looked pretty damn good doing it. However, in 2008 it was Ben TIME AND TIME AGAIN making a play in the 4th quarter to win the game. He's proven at times that he is Mr. Clutch and all this team needs. The clutch moments are too many to be mentioned, and the 2009 game where Ben completely disected the Packers defense for over 500 yards comes to mind when the question of "can he lead the team" is asked. Yet lately he is looking like he can't do it when it matters most, and has had a terrible offense for 2 years in a row.

Ben may win as much as the elite QB's, but the elite QB's never have 20th ranked offense's, especially not with the WR/TE options we have. This question always comes up and I've always been on the side arguing that Ben is as great as ANY other QB, but I think after these last two years, it's more of a fair assessment to say that he is capable of playing as great OR GREATER then any other QB at times, yet he is not elite on a regular basis.

Like I keep saying - Brady, Manning, Brees, and Rodgers aren't dumbed down by teams that want to play ball-control offenses. Ben is. It's not even so much about run/pass ratio. Those teams try to score fast, the Steelers try to sit on it and hope the defense keeps them in it long enough for Ben to bail everyone out in the end.

This is a huge reason why the Steelers offense is not scoring as many points as many of you want them to be, yet you can't seem to wrap it around your heads. If you believe ball-control offense is the way to go then I guess I won't change your minds - just don't bitch when the offense doesn't put up many points, or if Ben can't bail the Steelers out from their stubbornness every game.

btaylor179
01-02-2013, 09:09 PM
doesn't matter .......we are home watching the playoffs

pete74
01-03-2013, 05:28 AM
Like I keep saying - Brady, Manning, Brees, and Rodgers aren't dumbed down by teams that want to play ball-control offenses. Ben is. It's not even so much about run/pass ratio. Those teams try to score fast, the Steelers try to sit on it and hope the defense keeps them in it long enough for Ben to bail everyone out in the end.

This is a huge reason why the Steelers offense is not scoring as many points as many of you want them to be, yet you can't seem to wrap it around your heads. If you believe ball-control offense is the way to go then I guess I won't change your minds - just don't bitch when the offense doesn't put up many points, or if Ben can't bail the Steelers out from their stubbornness every game.

I don't understand what your saying? It's not like the Steelers are not trying to score and get first downs. They are, there just not executing well. Like I said earlier, New England runs the ball more then us and Brady is the master of the dink and dunk offense. We're trying to do the same thing but our offense can't get it done. It's not like Tomlin dosnt want to score because he does.

lloydwoodson
01-03-2013, 06:42 AM
Like I keep saying - Brady, Manning, Brees, and Rodgers aren't dumbed down by teams that want to play ball-control offenses. Ben is. It's not even so much about run/pass ratio. Those teams try to score fast, the Steelers try to sit on it and hope the defense keeps them in it long enough for Ben to bail everyone out in the end.

This is a huge reason why the Steelers offense is not scoring as many points as many of you want them to be, yet you can't seem to wrap it around your heads. If you believe ball-control offense is the way to go then I guess I won't change your minds - just don't bitch when the offense doesn't put up many points, or if Ben can't bail the Steelers out from their stubbornness every game.

Steelers points per quarter.

1st 3.6 2nd 7.1 3rd 4.4 4th 5.7

That's 10.7 first half points and 10.1 second half points.

Ben has had 5 4th quarter comebacks in the last 3 seasons... that matches the 5 4th quarter comebacks he had in his rookie season.

He doesn't bail the Steelers out as much as you'd like to pretend.

plenewken
01-03-2013, 06:46 AM
I don't understand what your saying? It's not like the Steelers are not trying to score and get first downs. They are, there just not executing well. Like I said earlier, New England runs the ball more then us and Brady is the master of the dink and dunk offense. We're trying to do the same thing but our offense can't get it done. It's not like Tomlin dosnt want to score because he does.

Ed Zachary! Some guys' comments crack me up. The reason we don't put many points on the board is not because we don't want to, it's because we're not good enough offensively to dominate the defenses we're facing. That's all.
And by not good enough, I'm talking about talent and execution.

ricardisimo
01-03-2013, 07:08 AM
I don't understand what your saying? It's not like the Steelers are not trying to score and get first downs. They are, there just not executing well. Like I said earlier, New England runs the ball more then us and Brady is the master of the dink and dunk offense. We're trying to do the same thing but our offense can't get it done. It's not like Tomlin dosnt want to score because he does.
Exactly. You would think Brady was in a run-n-shoot the way people talk about their offense. That's not what it is.

lloydwoodson
01-04-2013, 10:30 PM
He actually led two game-winning drives this year. Maybe three, actually, haven't went back and looked.

You are right on both counts. 2 4th QTR comebacks and 3 game winning drives.

Week 4 16-14 over Philly 4QC
Week 6 24-17 over Cincy
Week 8 24-20 over NYG 4QC

GoFor7
01-04-2013, 11:36 PM
Ed Zachary! Some guys' comments crack me up. The reason we don't put many points on the board is not because we don't want to, it's because we're not good enough offensively to dominate the defenses we're facing. That's all.
And by not good enough, I'm talking about talent and execution.

When they send all three of their speedy WRs only 5 to 10 yards beyond the LOS, that should be a big indication that they think time of possession is more important than scoring. And really, that's no surprise. They do it because they want the defense to carry the team.

teegre
01-04-2013, 11:39 PM
I don't understand what your saying? It's not like the Steelers are not trying to score and get first downs. They are, there just not executing well. Like I said earlier, New England runs the ball more then us and Brady is the master of the dink and dunk offense. We're trying to do the same thing but our offense can't get it done. It's not like Tomlin dosnt want to score because he does.

Succinct & logical. Great post.

GoFor7
01-04-2013, 11:41 PM
Succinct & logical. Great post.

The difference is they use a lot of no huddle and do not dumb-down their QB in the process. They aren't worried about tradition, they score. Anyone who compares the Haley/Artie offense to New England's offense is delusional.

teegre
01-04-2013, 11:51 PM
The difference is they use a lot of no huddle and do not dumb-down their QB in the process. They aren't worried about tradition, they score. Anyone who compares the Haley/Artie offense to New England's offense is delusional.

Well, I guess that I, Pete74, ricardismo, Riddle_of_Steel, and about thirty other regular posters on here are delusional.

GoFor7
01-04-2013, 11:54 PM
Well, I guess that I, Pete74, ricardismo, Riddle_of_Steel, and about thirty other regular posters on here are delusional.

I guess so. You all talk about "reining Ben in" and how important time of possession is, but then you bitch about how the offense doesn't score many points and the pressure usually being on the defense. Guess what - that's what this kind of close to the vest style of offense gets you.

teegre
01-05-2013, 12:15 AM
I guess so. You all talk about "reining Ben in" and how important time of possession is, but then you bitch about how the offense doesn't score many points and the pressure usually being on the defense. Guess what - that's what this kind of close to the vest style of offense gets you.

Never said that. Putting words in my mouth.

I said that I thought that pete74 made a great post.

He was saying that Brady plays dink & dunk... and that we all think Brady is a good QB... and that we all like BB... and we think that BB can be even more successful than he already is. Brady has evolved & improved his game, and BB can do that as well.

Reining in, playing close to the vest, and bitching about the offense were not mentioned in his post.

What are you talking about???

lloydwoodson
01-05-2013, 12:19 AM
The difference is they use a lot of no huddle and do not dumb-down their QB in the process. They aren't worried about tradition, they score. Anyone who compares the Haley/Artie offense to New England's offense is delusional.

So the Steelers 44 pass to 17 run play choice was traditional vs both the Chargers and Cowboys to lose the season?

I have shown that the Steelers pass more than GB, NE, and DEN on a percentage basis.

I have shown that Roethlisberger throws the same number of times as Peyton Manning.

I have shown that the Patriots ran the ball more than any team other than the Seahawks.

I have shown that the offensive lines that Ben plays behind are traditionally made up of higher draft picks than NE, IND or NO by far.

I have shown that Ben's offenses scored more than 23 points once in his 9 seasons.

I have shown that Ben has taken the Steelers to the playoffs only 4 times in the last 7 years while Flacco is 6 for 6, Manning hasn't missed since 2001, and Brady hasn't missed since 2002.

I have shown that Roethlisberger counts more against the cap than Brees, P Manning and Rodgers do for their teams.

The only thing I agree with you on is that the defense has had to carry the team, finishing top 10 for 13 seasons consecutively while still missing the playoffs frequently.

It is a good thing Ben is not going to win the superbowl this year because both of the times he did he REALLY ****ed up in the offseason. At least we know he won't come in 30 pounds overweight next year.

Guess what? Ben was 0 for 5 in games he threw 40 or more times in this year. Some things never change.

GoFor7
01-05-2013, 12:32 AM
Never said that. Putting words in my mouth.

I said that I thought that pete74 made a great post.

He was saying that Brady plays dink & dunk... and that we all think Brady is a good QB... and that we all like BB... and we think that BB can be even more successful than he already is. Brady has evolved & improved his game, and BB can do that as well.

They also use a ton of no-huddle, do not predictably call RUTMs or bubble screens, and allow Brady to win games early. And Kraft doesn't go on media tours calling for Brady to "change his game." They support and build around their QB, while the Steelers just cling to tradition and hope Ben bails them out whenever that doesn't work.

Did you watch the video with Bouchette and Dulac I posted in the other thread? Listen at the end when they talk about building an offense around Ben. At the beginning of the season, the Steelers kept 4 WRs, 3 TEs (only 1 good one), and 6 RBs. Plax was only added because of injuries to Brown and Cotchery. That is not setting your QB up for success, that's clinging to outdated tradition.

But no, Ben has to shut up and do what Artie says and like it because he can't be wrong.

Reining in, playing close to the vest, and bitching about the offense were not mentioned in his post.

What are you talking about???

Because you have people here talk about how they love this offense and time of possession, then go on to bitch about how Ben can't put up Brady/Manning numbers.

SteelMusic
01-05-2013, 12:36 AM
So the Steelers 44 pass to 17 run play choice was traditional vs both the Chargers and Cowboys to lose the season?

I have shown that the Steelers pass more than GB, NE, and DEN on a percentage basis.

I have shown that Roethlisberger throws the same number of times as Peyton Manning.

I have shown that the Patriots ran the ball more than any team other than the Seahawks.

I have shown that the offensive lines that Ben plays behind are traditionally made up of higher draft picks than NE, IND or NO by far.

I have shown that Ben's offenses scored more than 23 points once in his 9 seasons.

I have shown that Ben has taken the Steelers to the playoffs only 4 times in the last 7 years while Flacco is 6 for 6, Manning hasn't missed since 2001, and Brady hasn't missed since 2002.

I have shown that Roethlisberger counts more against the cap than Brees, P Manning and Rodgers do for their teams.

The only thing I agree with you on is that the defense has had to carry the team, finishing top 10 for 13 seasons consecutively while still missing the playoffs frequently.

It is a good thing Ben is not going to win the superbowl this year because both of the times he did he REALLY ****ed up in the offseason. At least we know he won't come in 30 pounds overweight next year.

Guess what? Ben was 0 for 5 in games he threw 40 or more times in this year. Some things never change.

BRrrr...them are some cold facts.

GoFor7
01-05-2013, 12:56 AM
BRrrr...them are some cold facts.

Mostly irrelevant though. The Steelers running problems haven't been for lack of trying, considering all the failed RUTMs on the first two downs. You also have to keep in mind that bubble screens count as passes and the final two minutes of the half.

Much of their problems are predictability and poor pedigree at RB. New England and Denver run the ball out of the no-huddle at times, which has been very effective. Perhaps the Steelers should take notes instead of stubbornly clinging to tradition.

lloydwoodson
01-05-2013, 01:57 AM
Mostly irrelevant though. The Steelers running problems haven't been for lack of trying, considering all the failed RUTMs on the first two downs. You also have to keep in mind that bubble screens count as passes and the final two minutes of the half.

Much of their problems are predictability and poor pedigree at RB. New England and Denver run the ball out of the no-huddle at times, which has been very effective. Perhaps the Steelers should take notes instead of stubbornly clinging to tradition.

I have already sonned you for making this point earlier. Please pay attention to the irrefutable, cold, hard facts as they have obliterated every nonsensical statement you have made.

Thanks in advance.

As I said PREVIOUSLY:

4 teams finished with worse YPC than the Steelers. DAL (23.5), SD (21.9), and ATL (26.2) all had better scoring offenses.

NO was 25th in rushing, gaining only 40 yards more than the Steelers for the year. However, on the strength of Drew Brees they still scored 28.8 ppg (3rd ovr).

maddog78
01-05-2013, 11:30 AM
Just went back and looked, and the number is three. One against Philadelphia, another against Cincinnati and the final one against the Giants. The Eagles and Giants games we're also fourth-quarter comebacks.

And the defense choked away games in Oakland and Tennessee.

maddog78
01-05-2013, 11:41 AM
I
4 teams finished with worse YPC than the Steelers. DAL (23.5), SD (21.9), and ATL (26.2) all had better scoring offenses.

NO was 25th in rushing, gaining only 40 yards more than the Steelers for the year. However, on the strength of Drew Brees they still scored 28.8 ppg (3rd ovr).

More to scoring than just offense. NO's defensed forced 26 turnovers and they scored 5 return TDs.

The Steelers defense forced 20 and scored 2 TDs.

They also had Brees for 16 games. That helps.

maddog78
01-05-2013, 11:55 AM
Guess what? Ben was 0 for 5 in games he threw 40 or more times in this year. Some things never change.

Brady was 3-4 when he threw 40+ times. Wins against Jac, NYJ, Miami.

Brees was 2-8 when he threw 40+ times.

Rodgers was 1-2 when he threw 40+ times.

Peyton Manning was 2-2, and he's the best ever to play.

Who are these QBs that consistently win when they throw 40+ times?

Ben's ratings when throwing 40+ times this year were 79.7, 123.2, 87.8, 87.9, 93.6. Maybe he's not the only reason they lost all those games?

teegre
01-05-2013, 12:16 PM
And the defense choked away games in Oakland and Tennessee.

I am BB's biggest fan, and, Yes, the defense was ineffective earlier this year...

...but, in both of those aforementioned games, BB could have sealed the victory with a completed third down pass to Heath Miller.

The difference between starting the season 6-3 and 8-1 is two little passes.

That is how "close" the NFL is.

teegre
01-05-2013, 12:27 PM
They also use a ton of no-huddle, do not predictably call RUTMs or bubble screens, and allow Brady to win games early. And Kraft doesn't go on media tours calling for Brady to "change his game." They support and build around their QB, while the Steelers just cling to tradition and hope Ben bails them out whenever that doesn't work.

Did you watch the video with Bouchette and Dulac I posted in the other thread? Listen at the end when they talk about building an offense around Ben. At the beginning of the season, the Steelers kept 4 WRs, 3 TEs (only 1 good one), and 6 RBs. Plax was only added because of injuries to Brown and Cotchery. That is not setting your QB up for success, that's clinging to outdated tradition.

But no, Ben has to shut up and do what Artie says and like it because he can't be wrong.



Because you have people here talk about how they love this offense and time of possession, then go on to bitch about how Ben can't put up Brady/Manning numbers.

As pete74 (and many others have mentioned), the Taperiots run more than the Steelers.

Media tours? What are you talking about?

3 TEs... like the Taperiots???

Again, pete74 compared BB to Brady's dink & dunk offense. YOU apparently do not think that BB can handle (or wants to handle) that type of personal development... because, FYI, Brady indeed develops his offense every single year. You are not for that. I, on the other hand, think that BB can always learn to improve his game (as in a league-leading 3rd down efficiency rating this past season).

Bouchette said it... a beat writer. Uh... hmmm. I posted a thread about Greg Cosell, who is an experienced analyst, who said that Haley was calling the right plays... but, you ignored that... you ignored an actual analyst (unbiased, to boot), in favor of Ed Bouchette (who is extremely opinionated). Regardless, we have been over this road far too many times. I say that Art II wanted to protect his QB, which I think he did... and, you will say that you think that the Steelers are playing scared, or playing Marty-ball, or playing close to the vest... or some other cliche of the week. We'll just have to agree to disagree on whether the offense was indeed structured around BB.

Lastly, when, in agreeing with pete74's post, did I (or he) bitch that BB did not put up Brady numbers??? Please, stop putting words in our mouths.

maddog78
01-05-2013, 01:45 PM
I am BB's biggest fan, and, Yes, the defense was ineffective earlier this year...

...but, in both of those aforementioned games, BB could have sealed the victory with a completed third down pass to Heath Miller.

The difference between starting the season 6-3 and 8-1 is two little passes.

That is how "close" the NFL is.

Or 1-8 if Ben didn't lead the league in 3rd down passing halfway through the season.

teegre
01-05-2013, 02:49 PM
Or 1-8 if Ben didn't lead the league in 3rd down passing halfway through the season.

Exactly.

Which is why, when he got injured, the season went kaput.

GoFor7
01-05-2013, 02:50 PM
As pete74 (and many others have mentioned), the Taperiots run more than the Steelers.

How many time does it have to be explained the quantity isn't as important, especially when you consider bubble screens and the end of the half. The Patriots a) aren't as predictable with their running plays, thus giving themselves the option to use it more, and b) run the ball out of no-huddle, which is very effective against a tired defense.


Media tours? What are you talking about?

Artie went around the local media to do damage control after he lied about the removal of Arians. He talked about how Ben needed to change his game and other crap. All of Yinzer Nation bitches when Ben complains about getting a new playbook rammed down his throat, but it's okay when Artie doesn't keep it in-house?

3 TEs... like the Taperiots???

Are you seriously comparing Pope and Paulson to Aaron Hernandez?

Again, pete74 compared BB to Brady's dink & dunk offense. YOU apparently do not think that BB can handle (or wants to handle) that type of personal development... because, FYI, Brady indeed develops his offense every single year. You are not for that. I, on the other hand, think that BB can always learn to improve his game (as in a league-leading 3rd down efficiency rating this past season).

Right, Brady develops it - it runs around him. Ben gets a new playbook rammed down his throat. Big difference.

Bouchette said it... a beat writer. Uh... hmmm. I posted a thread about Greg Cosell, who is an experienced analyst, who said that Haley was calling the right plays... but, you ignored that... you ignored an actual analyst (unbiased, to boot), in favor of Ed Bouchette (who is extremely opinionated). Regardless, we have been over this road far too many times. I say that Art II wanted to protect his QB, which I think he did... and, you will say that you think that the Steelers are playing scared, or playing Marty-ball, or playing close to the vest... or some other cliche of the week. We'll just have to agree to disagree on whether the offense was indeed structured around BB.

1.) They failed to protect Ben - 3 weeks of injury proves that. No excuses just like there were none for Arians.

2.) Artie isn't the football genius you think he is just because of his last name. Sorry I don't drink the Rooney cool-aid.

3.) When did a team win the super bowl playing small ball? You keep bringing up Brady - the Patriots win games early, allowing their running game to take over in the end. The Steelers play close to the vest for most of the game, hoping Ben can bail them out in the end. Big difference. The Patriots attack, the Steelers sit on it and hope the defense keeps them in the game.

4.) Maybe some people, like Bouchette and myself, aren't ready to hang our hats on a three game stretch early in the season - especially when it is clear the Steelers failed to build a proper offense around him. Ben's not a dink-and-dunk QB.

Lastly, when, in agreeing with pete74's post, did I (or he) bitch that BB did not put up Brady numbers??? Please, stop putting words in our mouths.

Maybe you don't, but many others on this board do. They can't seem to grasp an offense that plays close to the vest won't score many points regardless of who's playing.

maddog78
01-05-2013, 03:05 PM
Exactly.

Which is why, when he got injured, the season went kaput.

Losing Brown, Adams, and Colon didn't help either.

teegre
01-05-2013, 04:20 PM
How many time does it have to be explained the quantity isn't as important, especially when you consider bubble screens and the end of the half. The Patriots a) aren't as predictable with their running plays, thus giving themselves the option to use it more, and b) run the ball out of no-huddle, which is very effective against a tired defense.




Artie went around the local media to do damage control after he lied about the removal of Arians. He talked about how Ben needed to change his game and other crap. All of Yinzer Nation bitches when Ben complains about getting a new playbook rammed down his throat, but it's okay when Artie doesn't keep it in-house?



Are you seriously comparing Pope and Paulson to Aaron Hernandez?



Right, Brady develops it - it runs around him. Ben gets a new playbook rammed down his throat. Big difference.



1.) They failed to protect Ben - 3 weeks of injury proves that. No excuses just like there were none for Arians.

2.) Artie isn't the football genius you think he is just because of his last name. Sorry I don't drink the Rooney cool-aid.

3.) When did a team win the super bowl playing small ball? You keep bringing up Brady - the Patriots win games early, allowing their running game to take over in the end. The Steelers play close to the vest for most of the game, hoping Ben can bail them out in the end. Big difference. The Patriots attack, the Steelers sit on it and hope the defense keeps them in the game.

4.) Maybe some people, like Bouchette and myself, aren't ready to hang our hats on a three game stretch early in the season - especially when it is clear the Steelers failed to build a proper offense around him. Ben's not a dink-and-dunk QB.



Maybe you don't, but many others on this board do. They can't seem to grasp an offense that plays close to the vest won't score many points regardless of who's playing.

Wait... you are proposing more no huddle??? I have never heard you mention that before. (yawn)

Again, please provide a link that says that Art II wanted to handcuff his QB. Because, everything that I read (e.g. in his press conference) was that he wanted to protect his QB. I've asked you to provide a link, in many other threads... to no avail.

Obviously, Paulson is not Hernandez. You mentioned 3 TEs, as if that was a bad thing, and thus, I was simply pointing out that many teams carry three TEs.

Like I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree on whether this offense was structured around BB.

1) We've been over this. An injury can happen on ANY play; thus, less sacks equals less chance for injury... and the sacks were lower in the first nine games.

3) & 4) Search out the thread on Greg Cosell. I do not enjoy posting the same things over & over... & over... & over... (like some people in this forum do).

2) Seriously, STOP putting words in my mouth. When did I call Art II a genius??? Oh wait... it was probably in the same thread where you admitted to killing kittens for kicks. (Get the point?)