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huntingteacher
12-31-2012, 02:38 PM
I'm not sold on Haley. He made a mess of a good offense this year. R/B and W/R's became head cases this year. They either felt too much pressure to perform, or didn't prepare well for games. Rothliesburger has scars on his tongue from after game interviews. He is not sold either... The offense never ran better than under Whisenhunt. :tt04::tt02:

Fire Haley
12-31-2012, 02:39 PM
another loser HC moving to OC?

no thanks - the stink of losing is even stronger on him

sloppyjoe
12-31-2012, 02:42 PM
if your gonna bring in whiz, it should be as HC

PhantomJB93
12-31-2012, 02:46 PM
Here we go...

SteelersCanada
12-31-2012, 02:46 PM
if your gonna bring in whiz, it should be as HC

LOL. He's done a bang-up job so far in Arizona, right? Going 4-0 and then dropping 11 of the next 12 games? I know what you're saying, "it's an anomaly!" Well, he's had two - count 'em, two - above .500 seasons since he's been head coach of the Cardinals. Since 2010 he's 18-30 or .375. Since he's been the head coach of them since '07, he's 45-51.

But don't let facts get in your way.

VaDave
12-31-2012, 02:48 PM
Well, we could also bring back Chan Gailey, Mike Malarky, or Tom Moore.....

Gailey, Malarky, and Wizenhunt are all Peter Principle examples, guys that were promoted to their level of incompentence........ Frankly, they were all solid coordinators. So what if they can't run a team?

sloppyjoe
12-31-2012, 02:48 PM
LOL. He's done a bang-up job so far in Arizona, right? Going 4-0 and then dropping 11 of the next 12 games? I know what you're saying, "it's an anomaly!" Well, he's had two - count 'em, two - above .500 seasons since he's been head coach of the Cardinals. Since 2010 he's 18-30 or .375. Since he's been the head coach of them since '07, he's 45-51.

But don't let facts get in your way.

its all the players fault, right?

SteelersCanada
12-31-2012, 02:52 PM
its all the players fault, right?

If Tomlin went 45-51, he'd be out of here and these forums would want him exiled from Pittsburgh. But, Whisenhunt does it and we want him as our head coach? I don't even understand.

BritishSteel
12-31-2012, 03:01 PM
I doubt Whiz comes back here under Tomlin given that he interviewed for the job and didn't get it. Wouldn't surprise me to see him at KC though.

Atlanta Dan
12-31-2012, 03:07 PM
I'm not sold on Haley. He made a mess of a good offense this year. R/B and W/R's became head cases this year. They either felt too much pressure to perform, or didn't prepare well for games. Rothliesburger has scars on his tongue from after game interviews. He is not sold either... The offense never ran better than under Whisenhunt. :tt04::tt02:

For anyone who may have a short memory, Roethlisberger does not agree

Whisenhunt said the quarterback's June 2006 motorcycle crash may have contributed to his down season that year. Partly because of Roethlisberger's struggles, the Steelers started 2-6 after winning the Super Bowl and missed the playoffs.

Whisenhunt's comments seemed innocuous it was evident Roethlisberger wasn't the player in 2006 he was during the Super Bowl year but they apparently touched a nerve with a player known for his competitiveness.

"I don't agree with Whis. There were a lot of things I didn't agree with Whis about, and that's another one," Roethlisberger said at the time. "I had a bad year. I'm sure Whis had a bad year once in his career."

Before the Steelers and Cardinals played early in the 2007 season, Roethlisberger said he felt restrained in a Whisenhunt-coached offense that he felt limited his passing attempts, especially his downfield throwing.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/steelers/2009-01-23-roethlisberger-whisenhunt_N.htm

Roethlisberger has made it clear that he doesn't care for Whisenhunt's methods or his play calling. He said he disagreed with his former offensive coordinator on a lot of things during their time in Pittsburgh. He called Whisenhunt's offense "predictable." He even sympathized with Matt Leinart when the Cardinals' former starting quarterback was enduring some tough love from the coaching staff.

Neither man acknowledged the other when the Steelers came to Glendale in 2007. No handshakes, no hugs, nothing. The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette reports that new Steelers coach Mike Tomlin even met with Roethlisberger before that game, just to make sure his quarterback didn't say anything else outrageous.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/sports/articles/2009/01/27/20090127bickley0127.html

OX1947
12-31-2012, 03:35 PM
Steelers need to get a new brain for Ben.

Edman
12-31-2012, 03:39 PM
It wouldn't surprise me if Ben thinks likewise about Haley.

PhantomJB93
12-31-2012, 03:54 PM
If Tomlin went 45-51, he'd be out of here and these forums would want him exiled from Pittsburgh. But, Whisenhunt does it and we want him as our head coach? I don't even understand.

But Tomlin has no control over his players or team!! It's all his fault!! Whisenhunt will bring an iron fist down upon this organization and we'll never lose another game!!

SteelersCanada
12-31-2012, 04:35 PM
But Tomlin has no control over his players or team!! It's all his fault!! Whisenhunt will bring an iron fist down upon this organization and we'll never lose another game!!

I'd imagine that some people think this way which is sad.

Blacksburg Zach
12-31-2012, 05:17 PM
But Tomlin has no control over his players or team!! It's all his fault!! Whisenhunt will bring an iron fist down upon this organization and we'll never lose another game!!


He sure did a good job at doing that in Arizona, while Tomlin obviously sucks since he didn't go to the playoffs every year.:chuckle:

lloydwoodson
12-31-2012, 05:18 PM
Sorry guys - it is the same underachieving offense year after year. The offensive coordinators are variables - the quarterback is the constant.

Top quarterbacks with new coordinators last year and the ppg their offenses produced:

Roethlisberger 2011 20 ppg 2012 21 ppg

Tom Brady 2011 32 ppg 2012 35 ppg

Matt Ryan 2011 25 ppg 2012 26 ppg

Cutler 2011 22 ppg 2012 23 ppg

P Manning 2010 27 ppg 2012 30 ppg

Rivers 2011 25 ppg 2012 22 ppg

Flacco 2011 24 ppg 2012 25 ppg

Romo 2011 23 ppg 2012 23 ppg

Rodgers 2011 35 ppg 2012 27 ppg

Conclusion: Seeing that only Rodgers offensive production changed significantly, if a team wants to score more points they are better off with a new quarterback than a new coordinator.

Ricco Suavez
12-31-2012, 05:26 PM
Sorry guys - it is the same underachieving offense year after year. The offensive coordinators are variables - the quarterback is the constant.

Top quarterbacks with new coordinators last year and the ppg their offenses produced:

Roethlisberger 2011 20 ppg 2012 21 ppg

Tom Brady 2011 32 ppg 2012 35 ppg

Matt Ryan 2011 25 ppg 2012 26 ppg

Cutler 2011 22 ppg 2012 23 ppg

P Manning 2010 27 ppg 2012 30 ppg

Rivers 2011 25 ppg 2012 22 ppg

Flacco 2011 24 ppg 2012 25 ppg

Romo 2011 23 ppg 2012 23 ppg

Rodgers 2011 35 ppg 2012 27 ppg

Conclusion: Seeing that only Rodgers offensive production changed significantly, if a team wants to score more points they are better off with a new quarterback than a new coordinator.

Nothing new here move along folks. Same old tired routine, you sure you were'nt in Vaudeville?:coffee:

GoFor7
12-31-2012, 05:28 PM
Sorry guys - it is the same underachieving offense year after year. The offensive coordinators are variables - the quarterback is the constant.

Top quarterbacks with new coordinators last year and the ppg their offenses produced:

Roethlisberger 2011 20 ppg 2012 21 ppg

Tom Brady 2011 32 ppg 2012 35 ppg

Matt Ryan 2011 25 ppg 2012 26 ppg

Cutler 2011 22 ppg 2012 23 ppg

P Manning 2010 27 ppg 2012 30 ppg

Rivers 2011 25 ppg 2012 22 ppg

Flacco 2011 24 ppg 2012 25 ppg

Romo 2011 23 ppg 2012 23 ppg

Rodgers 2011 35 ppg 2012 27 ppg

Conclusion: Seeing that only Rodgers offensive production changed significantly, if a team wants to score more points they are better off with a new quarterback than a new coordinator.

All those teams you mentioned aren't obsessed with ball control offenses - they actually try to score. I keep telling you that, but you seem incapable of understanding.

This is yinzer nation in the offseason:

"Ben don't gotta throw da ball more den 20 times! Gotta run da ball! Gotta rest da defense! Da stillerz dun't need ta score more points cuz da stiller defense will be well-rested!"

This is yinzer nation after a close loss:

"BEN WHY DIDN'T YINZ DO MORE! YINZ STINK! YINZ GOTTA SCORE MORE POINTS! BOOOOOOOOO!"

Don't demand the offense play ball-control and then go on demanding more points. Want more points? Gotta make some quick strikes and not worry about protecting the defense all the time.

steeltheone
12-31-2012, 05:30 PM
LOL. He's done a bang-up job so far in Arizona, right? Going 4-0 and then dropping 11 of the next 12 games? I know what you're saying, "it's an anomaly!" Well, he's had two - count 'em, two - above .500 seasons since he's been head coach of the Cardinals. Since 2010 he's 18-30 or .375. Since he's been the head coach of them since '07, he's 45-51.

But don't let facts get in your way.

Looking at the franchise he coached, this is about as good as it gets!

lloydwoodson
12-31-2012, 05:39 PM
All those teams you mentioned aren't obsessed with ball control offenses - they actually try to score. I keep telling you that, but you seem incapable of understanding.

This is yinzer nation in the offseason:

"Ben don't gotta throw da ball more den 20 times! Gotta run da ball! Gotta rest da defense! Da stillerz dun't need ta score more points cuz da stiller defense will be well-rested!"

This is yinzer nation after a close loss:

"BEN WHY DIDN'T YINZ DO MORE! YINZ STINK! YINZ GOTTA SCORE MORE POINTS! BOOOOOOOOO!"

Don't demand the offense play ball-control and then go on demanding more points. Want more points? Gotta make some quick strikes and not worry about protecting the defense all the time.

How come no one on this board can process simple information? The point isn't that Ben's offenses consistently produce fewer points than other top qbs.

THE POINT IS THAT EVERY QB WHO GOT A NEW OC THIS YEAR PRODUCED THE SAME NUMBER OF POINTS THEY DID LAST YEAR!

THE QB IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE OFFENSE MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE!

GoFor7
12-31-2012, 05:43 PM
How come no one on this board can process simple information? The point isn't that Ben's offenses consistently produce fewer points than other top qbs.

THE POINT IS THAT EVERY QB WHO GOT A NEW OC THIS YEAR PRODUCED THE SAME NUMBER OF POINTS THEY DID LAST YEAR!

THE QB IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE OFFENSE MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE!

Really? It's the QB's fault the organization wants a run, run, pass offense?

That damn Ben! HAND OFF BETTER!

NSMaster56
12-31-2012, 05:45 PM
Good list LloydWoodson.

Although, isn't McDaniels the Pats 'new' OC? Seeing as how he's a former QB coach for them, it's a technicality that he's a 'new' OC for them.

But substantial facts nonetheless.

GoFor7
12-31-2012, 05:46 PM
Good list LloydWoodson.

Although, isn't McDaniels the Pats 'new' OC? Seeing as how he's a former QB coach for them, it's a technicality that he's a 'new' OC for them.

But substantial facts nonetheless.

And yet you continue to ignore the fact that those offenses actually try to score instead of play ball-control like the Steelers.....

NSMaster56
12-31-2012, 05:55 PM
And yet you continue to ignore the fact that those offenses actually try to score instead of play ball-control like the Steelers.....

Huh?

No.

You're right about the style difference, but that doesn't explain the fact that each new OC O stayed in line with their previous year(s) scoring.

They're two different 'arguments'.

The Steelers O is questionable, but it doesn't appear to be strictly the fault of the OC.

EDIT: Though this is not to say it's only the fault of Big Ben. Clearly the OL and lack of #1 RB is a HUGE factor.

lloydwoodson
12-31-2012, 06:02 PM
And yet you continue to ignore the fact that those offenses actually try to score instead of play ball-control like the Steelers.....

Conclusion: Seeing that only Rodgers offensive production changed significantly, if a team wants to score more points they are better off with a new quarterback than a new coordinator.

My point is NOT that every other good qb is directing an offense that scores more points than Ben year in and year out - that is secondary.

The MAIN POINT is that every qb on the list - with the exception of Rodgers - produced almost exactly the same number of points under the new OC as under the old OC.

:applaudit:Every Roethlisberger fan thinks that simple statistical analysis is a "rosetta stone." :applaudit:

torpedoshell31
12-31-2012, 06:08 PM
John Clayton of ESPN stated today that if Arizona hires Haley as their HC, then Whisenhut could very well be moving back to Pittsburgh to take over as OC. The Cards were 4-0 this year until Kolb got hurt and was out for the year. They went 1-11 with Skelton, Hoyer etc.

lloydwoodson
12-31-2012, 06:18 PM
John Clayton of ESPN stated today that if Arizona hires Haley as their HC, then Whisenhut could very well be moving back to Pittsburgh to take over as OC. The Cards were 4-0 this year until Kolb got hurt and was out for the year. They went 1-11 with Skelton, Hoyer etc.

GoFor7 isn't going to like this. Whisenhunt will design a timed-passing offense that utilizes a running game and play action. GoFor7 and all the Ben fanboys want Mike Martz! Ben is the best qb in the NFL! Anything less than the greatest show on turf is unacceptable! We want the Finest Designs at Heinz!

Anything less than Ben throwing the ball 50 times is absurd! Ben throwing 35-40 times a game isn't working!!! He needs to throw MORE!!!

The BORING BALL CONTROL OFFENSE that Ben used to go 15-1 in his rookie season and the superbowl in his second season must never come back!!!!! Ben is too elite for winning!!!!!

GoFor7
12-31-2012, 06:21 PM
GoFor7 isn't going to like this. Whisenhunt will design a timed-passing offense that utilizes a running game and play action. GoFor7 and all the Ben fanboys want Mike Martz! Ben is the best qb in the NFL! Anything less than the greatest show on turf is unacceptable! We want the Finest Designs at Heinz!

Anything less than Ben throwing the ball 50 times is absurd! Ben throwing 35-40 times a game isn't working!!! He needs to throw MORE!!!

The BORING BALL CONTROL OFFENSE that Ben used to go 15-1 in his rookie season and the superbowl in his second season must never come back!!!!! Ben is too elite for winning!!!!!

Don't get your hopes up. After being passed up for the Steelers head coaching job, why the hell would Whiz want to come back and work under Tomlin?

GoFor7
12-31-2012, 06:23 PM
Huh?

No.

You're right about the style difference, but that doesn't explain the fact that each new OC O stayed in line with their previous year(s) scoring.

They're two different 'arguments'.

The Steelers O is questionable, but it doesn't appear to be strictly the fault of the OC.

EDIT: Though this is not to say it's only the fault of Big Ben. Clearly the OL and lack of #1 RB is a HUGE factor.

Actually, yes it does. Under Arians the Steelers actually were able to move the ball down field. The problem was Arians was not good in the red zone. This year, the offense did not give themselves enough opportunities to get into the red zone because they were more concerned with ball-control. They figured it's better to possess for a while and punt rather than score quickly and risk sending a tired defense back onto the field.

lloydwoodson
12-31-2012, 06:27 PM
Actually, yes it does. Under Arians the Steelers actually were able to move the ball down field. The problem was Arians was not good in the red zone. This year, the offense did not give themselves enough opportunities to get into the red zone because they were more concerned with ball-control. They figured it's better to possess for a while and punt rather than score quickly and risk sending a tired defense back onto the field.

Wrong!!! In 2006 under Whisenhunt the Steelers were 7th in total offense.

In 2007 under Arians the Steelers were 17th in total offense.

You are a fountain of misinformation, skewed logic and Ben idolatry.

The more control Ben got the less effective the offense was. Period.

The Rooneys are right. You are wrong. But then, their 6 Lombardis is a good indicator the Steelers FO knows what it is doing.

Atlanta Dan
12-31-2012, 06:28 PM
Don't get your hopes up. After being passed up for the Steelers head coaching job, why the hell would Whiz want to come back and work under Tomlin?

Because the average pay for a NFL OC exceeds unemployment compensation and fired HCs usually need to do rehab as a coordiantor before their next gig as a HC?:noidea::coffee:

VictoryFormation
12-31-2012, 06:33 PM
I'm sorry, but I don't think Whisenhunt was much of an offensive coordinator. I was glad to see him go. He ran a lot of cockeyed, trick plays, and his play calling, in general, was not that good. Don't forget, Todd Hailey came up as an OC under Whisenhunt in Arizona.

Steel95
12-31-2012, 06:35 PM
if your gonna bring in whiz, it should be as HC

Are you Nuts? Whisenhunt over Tomlin? You obviuosly do not follow the team closely; Big Ben had even more of a problem with Whisenhunt than he currently does with Haley. Whisenhunt was not the problem though, Big Ben was.

lloydwoodson
12-31-2012, 06:37 PM
I'm sorry, but I don't think Whisenhunt was much of an offensive coordinator. I was glad to see him go. He ran a lot of cockeyed, trick plays, and his play calling, in general, was not that good. Don't forget, Todd Hailey came up as an OC under Whisenhunt in Arizona.

I loved those gadget plays. One of those gadget plays was the pass from ARE to Ward in SB XL. ARE was the Steelers best qb that game and if he hadn't been I don't think the Steelers win that game.

GoFor7
12-31-2012, 06:41 PM
I loved those gadget plays. One of those gadget plays was the pass from ARE to Ward in SB XL. ARE was the Steelers best qb that game and if he hadn't been I don't think the Steelers win that game.

At least they weren't pissing their pants because they felt they scored too quickly...

sluggermatt15
12-31-2012, 06:45 PM
I don't think the Steelers did very well with ball control this season. Teams that usually control the ball/clock can efficiently run the football. The Steelers were unable to consistently run the ball this year. I would estimate between 4-6 games they might have had 100 yards rushing. But what is that, 1/4 to 1/3 of the season? Not good enough for a team to put up points.

I thought the purpose of Haley's offense was to score. The Steelers were to pass the ball more, throw deep down the field, and not rely on running the ball as much as in the past. Did I miss something?

GoFor7
12-31-2012, 06:48 PM
I don't think the Steelers did very well with ball control this season. Teams that usually control the ball/clock can efficiently run the football. The Steelers were unable to consistently run the ball this year. I would estimate between 4-6 games they might have had 100 yards rushing. But what is that, 1/4 to 1/3 of the season? Not good enough for a team to put up points.

I thought the purpose of Haley's offense was to score. The Steelers were to pass the ball more, throw deep down the field, and not rely on running the ball as much as in the past. Did I miss something?

No, the offense's job was to possess the ball and protect the defense. That was clearly evident in the Denver game with the run, run, pass play calling. That's what Artie wanted from the team, and it's exactly what he got. The Steelers don't want to be an offensive team, they want to be a defensive team.

lloydwoodson
12-31-2012, 06:54 PM
At least they weren't pissing their pants because they felt they scored too quickly...

The Steelers ran 4 plays per game fewer than the Broncos for the year and produced 10 points a game less.

How are the Broncos able to put up 30 ppg vs 21 ppg with only 4 more plays? Oh that's right... I forgot... the Broncos OC is so much better.

GoFor7
12-31-2012, 06:57 PM
The Steelers ran 4 plays per game fewer than the Broncos for the year and produced 10 points a game less.

How are the Broncos able to put up 30 ppg vs 21 ppg with only 4 more plays? Oh that's right... I forgot... the Broncos OC is so much better.

Right - they don't dumb down their QB and worry about ball-control for the majority of the game. They actually let Manning win the game early on for them. Not hard to understand for anyone with an IQ in double-digits.

stb_steeler
12-31-2012, 06:59 PM
Here we go...

Yep....here we go again.....lol

lloydwoodson
12-31-2012, 06:59 PM
No, the offense's job was to possess the ball and protect the defense. That was clearly evident in the Denver game with the run, run, pass play calling. That's what Artie wanted from the team, and it's exactly what he got. The Steelers don't want to be an offensive team, they want to be a defensive team.

The Steelers ARE a defensive team! WTF??!!!

Since Ben joined the Steelers they ave had the number 1 total defense in the NFL 5 years out of 9; nd the number 1 scoring defense 4 out of 9 years!!!!

THE STEELERS ARE A DEFENSIVE TEAM.

2 DPOY on this team. When will Ben win his first NFL MVP?

Rodgers has his. Brady has his. Manning has his. I thought Ben was elite?

Brady took the 31st defense to the superbowl last year. What would Ben's record be if he had the 31st defense in the league? How many of those 14-10 and 13-9 games would he continue to win vs Cleveland?

I can't believe GoFor7 has posted 20 000 times on this forum. That's a whole lot of ignorance.

GoFor7
12-31-2012, 07:10 PM
[QUOTE]The Steelers ARE a defensive team! WTF??!!!

Since Ben joined the Steelers they ave had the number 1 total defense in the NFL 5 years out of 9; nd the number 1 scoring defense 4 out of 9 years!!!!

THE STEELERS ARE A DEFENSIVE TEAM.

Right, and because of that they want to play a ball-control offense - which doesn't result in many points.

2 DPOY on this team. When will Ben win his first NFL MVP?

Rodgers has his. Brady has his. Manning has his. I thought Ben was elite?

It's been discussed before on this forum - the standard for picking super bowl MVP is rather confusing. The year before Eli put up similar numbers to Ben in the super bowl and got the MVP. If Ben didn't deserve the MVP, nor did Eli.

Brady took the 31st defense to the superbowl last year. What would Ben's record be if he had the 31st defense in the league?

Depends. Would the Steelers still play a ball-control offense? The Patriots actually let Brady try to win the game early so he doesn't always have to bail them out in the end. Hey speaking of which, Brady did not bail the Patriots out in the end of super bowl 46! BOOOOOOOOOO! HE STINKS! HIS LEGACY IS TARNISHED! He's lost twice as many super bowls as Ben did!

How many of those 14-10 and 13-9 games would he continue to win vs Cleveland?

Ben generally blows Cleveland out. That basis is without merit.



I can't believe GoFor7 has posted 20 000 times on this forum. That's a whole lot of ignorance.

For people with small IQs, big numbers look the same don't they?

lloydwoodson
01-01-2013, 12:16 AM
[QUOTE=lloydwoodson;1072654]

Right, and because of that they want to play a ball-control offense - which doesn't result in many points.



It's been discussed before on this forum - the standard for picking super bowl MVP is rather confusing. The year before Eli put up similar numbers to Ben in the super bowl and got the MVP. If Ben didn't deserve the MVP, nor did Eli.



Haley's "ball-control offense" resulted in more scoring than Arians "let Ben be Ben" offense.

Roethlisberger's stat line in his 3rd game in Haley's "ball-control" system: 384 yards on 49 pass attempts with 4 tds. Poor job of ball control what with all that scoring. Steelers lost that game btw.

I wasn't talking about superbowl MVPs I was talking about regular season MVPs - I know it is confusing because Roethlisberger doesn't have either but try to follow along.

bornaSteelersfan
01-01-2013, 03:40 AM
I loved those gadget plays. One of those gadget plays was the pass from ARE to Ward in SB XL. ARE was the Steelers best qb that game and if he hadn't been I don't think the Steelers win that game.

I loved it too. The Wiz won't be back here, though. Haley will most likely stay to finish what he started and get a SB ring.

Fire Haley
01-01-2013, 10:08 AM
please please please Arizona - take Haley!


and The Whiz's whole offensive staff was shit-canned, and no, I don't want any of them

GoFor7
01-01-2013, 12:10 PM
please please please Arizona - take Haley!


and The Whiz's whole offensive staff was shit-canned, and no, I don't want any of them

Whiz won't come here - too much bad blood between him and the organization.

NSMaster56
01-01-2013, 12:12 PM
This year, the offense did not give themselves enough opportunities to get into the red zone because they were more concerned with ball-control. They figured it's better to possess for a while and punt rather than score quickly and risk sending a tired defense back onto the field.

That did appear to be true. The 2012 Steelers lacked the 'take the lead' initiative from the 04-11 squads under Whisenhunt/Arians.

However, as pointed out by LW, they still scored in line with those squads.

Granted, he didn't post overall offensive stats (DVOA, yards, efficiency, etc.), but from a strictly points perspective the O was about on par with the past. (Although it would be interesting to see and compare all the other stats, too.)

Still, as a bit of a stats nerd myself, here's the Steelers PF/PA since 2006:

22.1 / 19.7
24.6 / 16.8
21.7 / 13.9
23.0 / 20.3
23.4 / 14.5
20.3 / 14.2
21.0 / 19.6

Based on that, it's not like the O was drastically different from years past. Haley's O was about 25 points off of Arians' AVG for the year (which is ~1.6 points per game).

Now, depending on when those 25 'missing points' were scored they could have earned the Steelers an extra win or 2 or 3, but that's a pointless argument (who the heck knows when/where those points come? They could have become 'garbage time' points.)

All that really can be said is that the O was as ineffective as ever and that the D slipped a little (although those PA/PG doesn't factor in ST TD's)---although the D slipping is probably a result of the ineffective O (as you pointed out).

GoFor7
01-01-2013, 12:18 PM
That did appear to be true. The 2012 Steelers lacked the 'take the lead' initiative from the 04-11 squads under Whisenhunt/Arians.

However, as pointed out by LW, they still scored in line with those squads.

Granted, he didn't post overall offensive stats (DVOA, yards, efficiency, etc.), but from a strictly points perspective the O was about on par with the past. (Although it would be interesting to see and compare all the other stats, too.)

Still, as a bit of a stats nerd myself, here's the Steelers PF/PA since 2006:

22.1 / 19.7
24.6 / 16.8
21.7 / 13.9
23.0 / 20.3
23.4 / 14.5
20.3 / 14.2
21.0 / 19.6

Based on that, it's not like the O was drastically different from years past. Haley's O was about 25 points off of Arians' AVG for the year (which is ~1.6 points per game).

Now, depending on when those 25 'missing points' were scored they could have earned the Steelers an extra win or 2 or 3, but that's a pointless argument (who the heck knows when/where those points come? They could have become 'garbage time' points.)

All that really can be said is that the O was as ineffective as ever and that the D slipped a little (although those PA/PG doesn't factor in ST TD's)---although the D slipping is probably a result of the ineffective O (as you pointed out).

I would say the reason for the points/game average being roughly the same between Arians and Haley were for different reasons.

Under Arians, the Steelers moved the ball down field. They had a "grab a game by the throat" mentality. The problems were once they got into the red zone they didn't score enough TDs. Had they done that, Artie would've had a hard time firing Arians despite his shortcomings.

Under Haley, red zone play was a bit more creative, but they didn't get into the red zone enough. They were so focused on ball-control that they took opportunities away from themselves (such as keeping all the WRs to 5-10 yard routes beyond the LOS). They didn't have any killer instinct. They just hoped that by possessing the ball the defense would keep them in it and Ben would pull a miracle out of his ass in the end.

NSMaster56
01-01-2013, 12:31 PM
I would say the reason for the points/game average being roughly the same between Arians and Haley were for different reasons.

Under Arians, the Steelers moved the ball down field. They had a "grab a game by the throat" mentality. The problems were once they got into the red zone they didn't score enough TDs. Had they done that, Artie would've had a hard time firing Arians despite his shortcomings.

Under Haley, red zone play was a bit more creative, but they didn't get into the red zone enough. They were so focused on ball-control that they took opportunities away from themselves (such as keeping all the WRs to 5-10 yard routes beyond the LOS). They didn't have any killer instinct. They just hoped that by possessing the ball the defense would keep them in it and Ben would pull a miracle out of his ass in the end.

Agreed.

The style change is the difference. It's just hard to know if it's all scheme or a symptom of a lack of talent.

Stats aren't a bible and it's hard to figure them all out. Maybe under Arians this year the Steelers would have scored those 'missing 25 points' and doing so would have led to the D allowing less, too (and/or their style would have eaten up more time to leave the D rested or otherwise left the opposition empty-handed). Who knows?

The only consistent factors in the Steelers failures, regardless of who the HC or OC has been, has been lack of a consistent OL, RB (since Fast Willie retired) and poor ST play.

Should the team fix one of the first two problems it should solve the 'grab a game by the throat' mentality. (It better!)

GoFor7
01-01-2013, 12:38 PM
Agreed.

The style change is the difference. It's just hard to know if it's all scheme or a symptom of a lack of talent.

Stats aren't a bible and it's hard to figure them all out. Maybe under Arians this year the Steelers would have scored those 'missing 25 points' and doing so would have led to the D allowing less, too (and/or their style would have eaten up more time to leave the D rested or otherwise left the opposition empty-handed). Who knows?

The only consistent factors in the Steelers failures, regardless of who the HC or OC has been, has been lack of a consistent OL, RB (since Fast Willie retired) and poor ST play.

Should the team fix one of the first two problems it should solve the 'grab a game by the throat' mentality. (It better!)

It'll be interesting to see what they do against the Patriots in 2013. Will they attack the Patriots like they did in 2011? Or will they play Marty ball like they did in the seasons before 2011?

Health is certainly part of the problem, but the mentality also has to change. They need to take over the game and not just play ball control and hope the defense can keep them in it.

NSMaster56
01-01-2013, 12:44 PM
They need to take over the game and not just play ball control and hope the defense can keep them in it.

This, this, this, this, THIS!

GoFor7
01-01-2013, 03:43 PM
This, this, this, this, THIS!

That's not up to Haley though, and probably not even up to Tomlin. Does anyone feel confident that management is willing to change its philosophies after an 8-8 season? The Steelers have tempted fate playing that style and have gotten away with it, this year it caught up to them.

jiminpa
01-01-2013, 04:06 PM
That's not up to Haley though, and probably not even up to Tomlin. Does anyone feel confident that management is willing to change its philosophies after an 8-8 season? The Steelers have tempted fate playing that style and have gotten away with it, this year it caught up to them.You are aware that the ownership of the team is not likely to ever change significantly. There's always room on the Cryboys bandwagon, and Goodell is always happy to welcome fans to the team that the NFL used to own, but now owns the NFL, maybe you would prefer their ownership better. Actually, the Deadskins management seems a better fit for your type of winning attitude.

Fire Haley
01-01-2013, 04:36 PM
Whiz won't come here - too much bad blood between him and the organization.

+ that and he sucks


screwed again

ESPN's Adam Schefter confirms reports that Andy Reid is close to becoming the Cardinals' next coach, with one source putting the odds at "95 percent."

GoFor7
01-01-2013, 05:26 PM
You are aware that the ownership of the team is not likely to ever change significantly. There's always room on the Cryboys bandwagon, and Goodell is always happy to welcome fans to the team that the NFL used to own, but now owns the NFL, maybe you would prefer their ownership better. Actually, the Deadskins management seems a better fit for your type of winning attitude.

Then ownership has to determine which is more important - being right or winning.

jiminpa
01-01-2013, 05:31 PM
Then ownership has to determine which is more important - being right or winning.
They are in the process of doing both, and fortunately, they are not even slightly aware of your loathing of them, or of your opinion.

GoFor7
01-01-2013, 05:42 PM
They are in the process of doing both, and fortunately, they are not even slightly aware of your loathing of them, or of your opinion.

Really? 8-8 is winning? They did it the way Artie wanted them to.

Don't bitch when the offense doesn't put up points if this is your stance.

lardlad
01-01-2013, 05:49 PM
All those teams you mentioned aren't obsessed with ball control offenses - they actually try to score. I keep telling you that, but you seem incapable of understanding.

This is yinzer nation in the offseason:

"Ben don't gotta throw da ball more den 20 times! Gotta run da ball! Gotta rest da defense! Da stillerz dun't need ta score more points cuz da stiller defense will be well-rested!"

This is yinzer nation after a close loss:

"BEN WHY DIDN'T YINZ DO MORE! YINZ STINK! YINZ GOTTA SCORE MORE POINTS! BOOOOOOOOO!"

Don't demand the offense play ball-control and then go on demanding more points. Want more points? Gotta make some quick strikes and not worry about protecting the defense all the time.

And Ben has to connect on the long play. There were drops but a lot he missed.

lardlad
01-01-2013, 05:51 PM
Another thing about trashing these coordinators. Why would we want them here if they suck as a HC? It's ridiculous, if they all had great records, they wouldn't be looking for work.

jiminpa
01-01-2013, 05:58 PM
Really? 8-8 is winning? They did it the way Artie wanted them to.

Don't bitch when the offense doesn't put up points if this is your stance.No, Art wants them to run more effectively, and play solid football, which you oppose at every opportunity. 8-8 is Tomlin ball, and hopefully they are noticing the direction the team is heading under him.

lardlad
01-01-2013, 06:00 PM
:toofunny:That's not up to Haley though, and probably not even up to Tomlin. Does anyone feel confident that management is willing to change its philosophies after an 8-8 season? The Steelers have tempted fate playing that style and have gotten away with it, this year it caught up to them.

The philosophies are not the issue. If you don't like the way the Rooneys run the team that is fine, but there is nothing the front office does that makes half your starters hurt half the season or turn the ball over constantly. If the offense holds onto the ball and the running game didn't suck, no one is considering turning the franchise upside down and start over. Despite being 8-8, they take care of the ball and they are playing this week.

Also I am not sure why you complain about 'yinzer nation' because they have even less or zero to do with the outcomes of these game. And thank god ownership doesn't listen to the fans.

Rooneys run a tight ship and probably only a couple other franchises have been so successful.

zcoop
01-01-2013, 06:01 PM
No, Art wants them to run more effectively, and play solid football, which you oppose at every opportunity. 8-8 is Tomlin ball, and hopefully they are noticing the direction the team is heading under him.

Naw, 8-8 is Artie ball, he brought Haley's offense here this season.

GoFor7
01-01-2013, 06:24 PM
:toofunny:

The philosophies are not the issue. If you don't like the way the Rooneys run the team that is fine, but there is nothing the front office does that makes half your starters hurt half the season or turn the ball over constantly. If the offense holds onto the ball and the running game didn't suck, no one is considering turning the franchise upside down and start over. Despite being 8-8, they take care of the ball and they are playing this week.

Also I am not sure why you complain about 'yinzer nation' because they have even less or zero to do with the outcomes of these game. And thank god ownership doesn't listen to the fans.

Rooneys run a tight ship and probably only a couple other franchises have been so successful.

I'm not saying the Steelers need to "start over", I'm just saying if you want more offensive production, stop fretting over time of possession and put more emphasis on scoring.

No, Art wants them to run more effectively, and play solid football, which you oppose at every opportunity. 8-8 is Tomlin ball, and hopefully they are noticing the direction the team is heading under him.

And their definition of "solid football" is playing close to the vest on offense and relying heavily on defense - ala not many points on offense. So unless Tomlin and Haley took what Artie said to extreme measures, this seems to be the kind of football management wants. Don't get upset every time Ben can't bail the team out from it's own stubbornness.

Lady Steel
01-02-2013, 12:26 AM
Steelers need to get a new brain for Ben.

When I'm at my parents' house watching a game, every time Ben walks onto the field for the Steelers' first possession, my dad says, "Here comes Dumb Dumb." :laughing:

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 01:37 AM
When I'm at my parents' house watching a game, every time Ben walks onto the field for the Steelers' first possession, my dad says, "Here comes Dumb Dumb." :laughing:

Aww that's adorable.