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View Full Version : An Apology to Arians! I Was Wrong!


lloydwoodson
01-01-2013, 09:35 AM
I was as vocal as anyone at the end of last season in expressing the need for Arians to be replaced.

It is another year later and the offensive production is almost exactly the same.

This has caused me to look at where blame is being placed on the offense. I had previously believed that Arians was a poor fit for the team and that Roethlisberger would flourish under new direction. I was wrong.

I took a look at some of the other coordinators around the league. I asked myself: how much of an effect does an offensive coordinator really have?

I stumbled on an article from Bleacher Report. It named Josh McDaniels as the worst offensive coordinator in the NFL last year. McDaniels was the OC for the St Louis Rams in 2011. The Rams anemic offense produced only 12 points per game, rotating qbs as their underperforming starter, Sam Bradford, was injured. I wondered how much of that poor performance should lie at the feet of the OC.

I looked at where Josh McDaniels was this year. He received an offer from Bill Belichek to be the Patriots' OC at the beginning of 2012. Why would Belichek hire the worst OC in football if he is a football genius like sportscasters keep claiming? I found it odd... that is until I kept researching. It turns out Belichek was right and that the cause of the Rams offensive woes was not the OC!

With the Patriots Josh McDaniels offense score an astounding 36 ppg! That is triple what his offense had produced the year before! It turns out that having a star quarterback made all the difference! Josh McDaniels went from being the worst OC in football to being the best OC in football and all it took was a new quarterback!

In conclusion, I now realise that every OC does the best with what they have. Their error likely lies in the perception they have of their own talent as that determines their identity and game plans.

I am sorry Bruce. You did the best you could with what you were given- an underachieving QB, a shoddy OL and headcases for RBs and WRs. I am pleased to see that your new team is doing quite well under your offense, and wish you the best in the future.

Abashedly, Lloyd.

Ricco Suavez
01-01-2013, 09:48 AM
Brady and the Patriot system for 2 reasons. Another is JMcD is very familiar with that system and Bady both, not hard to see why he has success with them. Thought even you could see that. BTW you were right in being wrong.

Jahodac
01-01-2013, 10:00 AM
The difference is that the Rams don't have the personnel to win cause they are rebuilding. The Steelers do have the players to win, it's just that everybody, both players and coaches, were incompetent this year. Arians had a good offense to work with and blew it. He's still a good OC though seeing the job Haley did this year.

You are right though, the offensive players were a problem this year. It's important to note that when everybody is playing poorly, it may be the system. It's no secret to the casual fan that this team is not built for dink and dunk; maybe in ten years or so with a new QB and receivers, but not now.

Quackjack
01-01-2013, 10:09 AM
While I am in the minority in thinking we give Haley one more shot, I have to say he is on very, very thin ice.

:mad:

desertsteel
01-01-2013, 10:30 AM
So given the fans propensity to make harsh initial judgments, will we be having a thread like this next year for Haley after the team buys in and gets healthy?

SteelersCanada
01-01-2013, 10:31 AM
I'm sorry, did you just compare the St. Louis Rams to the New England Patriots? Let's break that down for a second. The Rams have Sam Bradford as their staring Quarterback and the Patriots have arguably the best Quarterback to ever take a snap.

It's not hard to call plays for Brady. Most of the time he'll just audible out of it and call his own plays. The Pats are most successful when they're in the 2 minute offense and Brady is calling his own plays and running the offense.

You have to realize that this comparison is ridiculous. Anyone could coordinate for Brady and put up fucking insane numbers. He's - in my opinion - the best Quarterback to ever do it and you're bringing up the fact that Ben can't put up similar numbers? For the love of God you have to realize that this isn't even a lucid comparison.

Here's the simple fact of the matter - Stats. Don't. Mean. Anything. Would you trade Ben's playoff wins and rings for Matt Ryan's stats? Or Manning's stats? He doesn't put up flashy numbers or insane yardage because he doesn't have to. He knows how to win games and knows how to come back in the fourth quarter to win games. We're going to forget all of this because of a down season? Really? People are paying way too much attention to numbers so I'll give you numbers:

Matt Ryan - 0-3 in the postseason

Peyton Manning - 9-10 in the postseason

Ben Roethlisberger - 10-4 in the postseason

I already know what people are going to come on here saying: "don't make team achievements personal achievements!!!!!!!11!" and I say nay sir. Elite Quarterbacks know how to win playoff games and championships - something Matt Ryan knows nothing about.

Is Stafford a better quarterback than Ben? I mean, he's put up some pretty good yardage in the last couple seasons. Should we trade for Stafford and shit all over Roethlisberger because he doesn't pass for 300+ a game? Or, should we recognize that we have a top 5 quarterback and stop bitching about him.

Also, Ben is an underachieving Quarterback? He has two Super Bowl rings. What the fuck else does this guy have to do to earn respect from the fans in this town? Ask 30 other teams if they want Roethlisberger and they'd jump at the chance. I'm in shock that there's a sect of Steelers fans that actually think like this. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Lloyd, we've started to agree on a lot of things recently but this is laughable.

steelfury02
01-01-2013, 10:38 AM
I'm sorry, did you just compare the St. Louis Rams to the New England Patriots? Let's break that down for a second. The Rams have Sam Bradford as their staring Quarterback and the Patriots have arguably the best Quarterback to ever take a snap.

It's not hard to call plays for Brady. Most of the time he'll just audible out of it and call his own plays. The Pats are most successful when they're in the 2 minute offense and Brady is calling his own plays and running the offense.

You have to realize that this comparison is ridiculous. Anyone could coordinate for Brady and put up fucking insane numbers. He's - in my opinion - the best Quarterback to ever do it and you're bringing up the fact that Ben can't put up similar numbers? For the love of God you have to realize that this isn't even a lucid comparison.

Also, Ben is an underachieving Quarterback? He has two Super Bowl rings. What the fuck else does this guy have to do to earn respect from the fans in this town? Ask 30 other teams if they want Roethlisberger and they'd jump at the chance. I'm in shock that there's a sect of Steelers fans that actually think like this. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Lloyd, we've started to agree on a lot of things recently but this is laughable.

I'll chime in, cause you all really wanted me to :chuckle:

IMO - Ben isn't under-achieving, he's just plateaued. If you want the offense to do more, he does in fact have to "tweak" something, and that includes his gun-slinging, live by the sword, die by the sword attitude. If you want the rest of his career to be Brett Favreish then rock on.

Ricco Suavez
01-01-2013, 10:40 AM
While I am in the minority in thinking we give Haley one more shot, I have to say he is on very, very thin ice.

:mad:

I am on record that I was not as happy with Haley as I would like, but I agree with you. Swapping OCs every year is no way to go. I defend Ben on a lot of things, but he is going to have to give a little and in turn Haley has to adapt more to the team, which includes Ben. If we had the personnel to play smash mouth football I would be all for it, the FO needs to back off their mantra of returning to "Steeler Ball" and go with what we have. I still believe in a somewhat balance attack, but it has to be balanced in how successful each part is. The running game needs to pull its own weight next year.

MasterOfPuppets
01-01-2013, 10:56 AM
arians was a freakin turd. 1 bad season from hailey doesn't validate 5 years of horrible game plans and play calling. blame the players and execution all you want , but then ask yourself why after 5 years of teaching / coaching the players still couldn't become efficient in running his offense ...:tap:
if you paid a math tutor for 5 years to teach your kid math and after 5 years the kid still struggled to put up more than a C on a test , were you getting your money's worth ? :noidea:

lloydwoodson
01-01-2013, 10:56 AM
It's not hard to call plays for Brady. Most of the time he'll just audible out of it and call his own plays. The Pats are most successful when they're in the 2 minute offense and Brady is calling his own plays and running the offense.

You have to realize that this comparison is ridiculous. Anyone could coordinate for Brady and put up fucking insane numbers. He's - in my opinion - the best Quarterback to ever do it and you're bringing up the fact that Ben can't put up similar numbers? For the love of God you have to realize that this isn't even a lucid comparison.



Ha! You are on my side more than I am. You have just stated EXACTLY my point.

Your opinion is the Patriots offense succeeds because Brady is the best to ever do it. You even go so far as to say the Patriots offense is the best when no OC is involved whatsoever. How important is an OC come game time really?

My opinion is the offense of any team will only go so far as the personnel regardless of who the coordinator is and the most important player is BY FAR the qb.

You have just stated the exact same thing.

My point is that Ben is no where near Brady.

Thank you for agreeing with me.

Also, in NO WAY was I condemning Haley. If he leaves then a new OC will oversee Ben's offense putting up the exact same numbers.

SteelersCanada
01-01-2013, 11:00 AM
My point is that Ben is no where near Brady.

No one is suggesting that he is and to suggest that Ben is anywhere near the talent of Brady is a mistake. The point is, you don't have to be to win championships because stats don't mean anything. The only stats that matter are postseason wins and in that regard, Ben is top 3.

YPG / Offensive output shouldn't be taken into consideration when a quarterback is 10-4 in the postseason and has 2 Super Bowl rings. He knows how to win games. So, obviously, he's doing something right. Defense wins championships, but defenses don't go 78 yards in the Super Bowl and throw an amazing pass to Santonio Holmes to win a championship against a future Hall of Fame quarterback.

harrison'samonster
01-01-2013, 11:12 AM
this thread is nothing but a Ben Bashing thread in disguise.

FanSince72
01-01-2013, 11:12 AM
arians was a freakin turd. 1 bad season from hailey doesn't validate 5 years of horrible game plans and play calling. blame the players and execution all you want , but then ask yourself why after 5 years of teaching / coaching the players still couldn't become efficient in running his offense ...:tap:
if you paid a math tutor for 5 years to teach your kid math and after 5 years the kid still struggled to put up more than a C on a test , were you getting your money's worth ? :noidea:



"...5 years of horrible game plans and play calling..."?

Do you seriously believe that?

5 winning seasons
Only one of them with less than 10 wins (3 with 12 wins)
2 Super Bowl appearances
1 Super Bowl win.

Yeah, that's pretty horrible stuff alright!

And let's not forget THIS year with Indy; 11-5 and missing a Division Title by just one game with a young team and a rookie QB AND while serving double-duty as both the Head Coach and the OC - and the team LOVES him not to mention that his name is popping up all over the place for a HC job.

Yeah, this Arians dude is a real cancer! :sofunny:

lloydwoodson
01-01-2013, 11:12 AM
To reiterate: I was not asking for Arians back. I didn't like him and I still don't but he was not the problem.

I am not asking for Haley to be fired. I think people should see what he can do with a healthy qb and a healthy rb before they pass judgement.

I think Ben is an excellent qb and would have no problems with him being rated any where from 6th to 10th in the league.

I am trying to stymie the consensus that the problem with the offense is that Ben has not been given enough control.

Ben has surpassed Joe Montana's single season bests in both TDs and yardage. When is enough enough? When did "game manager" become a dirty word? When did "running quarterback" become a dirty word?

It is hard enough to win in the NFL without trying to do it in a flashy and explosive way. The best qbs ever play within a system and what sets them apart is their fast decision making, quickness and execution.

Montana was a game manager and he had Rice, Taylor and Jones to throw to.

Aikman was a game manager and he had Irvin, Harper and Novacek to throw to.

Since when did Ben become bigger than these legends? When did football fundamentals change? When did crisp timing routes become outdated?

The fact is Ben is not Brady or Manning and he is never going to put up 30 points a game. The Steelers tried to make that happen with Arians and it did not work. Roethlisberger had Ward, Miller, Wallace, Brown, Sanders and Mendenhall on the same offense and he could not put up 30 points a game.

Ben is lost. He doesn't know who he is. He is being reminded of who he is by the Rooneys through Haley. Ben is a really good dropback quarterback who excels at play-action and improvisation.

Roethlisberger can be a huge part of the Steelers resurgence next year... if he plays from within the team. The great players are great because they make the players around them better. Just ask Hines and Bettis. :tt04:

FanSince72
01-01-2013, 11:25 AM
"Roethlisberger can be a huge part of the Steelers resurgence next year... if he plays from within the team."


Sorry, I disagree.

Ben's stock-in-trade is his ability to make it up as he goes and he does his best work when he's allowed to improvise and that's what Arians tried to let him do. It's also why it never seemed as if there was much of a game plan but with a guy like Ben, that's the best it can look because it's impossible to "game plan" improvisation.

Haley, on the other hand, is trying to turn Ben into some sort of robot, pocket-passer and that's like trying using a Ferrari as a grocery-getter. But Haley's ego cannot allow Ben to be who he is because Ben - not Haley - might get the credit for doing great things and guys like Haley can't deal with that.

Arians had no such ego problems and thus was able to experiment and try to let Ben's strong points rule the day. It didn't always work, but more often than not it did and most importantly, Ben was comfortable and when you're comfortable, you tend to do your best work.

Ben is not and should not be a game-manager and Haley along with the Rooneys need to accept that.

lloydwoodson
01-01-2013, 11:29 AM
this thread is nothing but a Ben Bashing thread in disguise.

That is EXACTLY what it is :applaudit:

But didn't you find it insightful? An NFL OC is said to be the worst in the league by the media one year and is in control of the best offense in the NFL the next. Personnel is much more responsible than coaching for wins.

Defense wins championships, but defenses don't go 78 yards in the Super Bowl and throw an amazing pass to Santonio Holmes to win a championship against a future Hall of Fame quarterback.

No but they do go 100 yards on an int for a td in the dying seconds of the first half.

And they do sack the other teams qb on back-to-back plays so he can't orchestrate the superbowl comeback of his own because your qb has waited 119 minutes to throw his first superbowl td.

And they do run back an int 40 yards for a td in the 4th quarter of the AFC championship game to turn a potentially game-winning drive for the other team into a 23-14 win (without which you wouldn't be in the superbowl in the first place).

Edman
01-01-2013, 11:33 AM
The only thing I'm apologizing to Arians for is shouldering all the blame for whenever Ben screwed up.

The only thing I'll put on Arians is that he put too much focus on trying to be buddies with Ben. I'm still happy he isn't here and I'm sure he's quite happy where he is too.

pczach
01-01-2013, 11:40 AM
Excuse me, but how many Super Bowls have the team with the "best quarterback ever" (Tom Brady) won in the last 7 years?

Answer: 0. Yes, that would mean ZERO!

How many last minute, game-winning drives has he had in the last 7 Super Bowls?

Answer: 0 again!


I think someone's theory may have some holes in it.

Since Ben and Eli Manning have entered thier prime years, they have won 4 of the last 7 Super Bowls. I would like an explanation for this obvious but never mentioned fact.

Ricco Suavez
01-01-2013, 11:42 AM
To reiterate: I was not asking for Arians back. I didn't like him and I still don't but he was not the problem.

I am not asking for Haley to be fired. I think people should see what he can do with a healthy qb and a healthy rb before they pass judgement.

I think Ben is an excellent qb and would have no problems with him being rated any where from 6th to 10th in the league.

I am trying to stymie the consensus that the problem with the offense is that Ben has not been given enough control.

Ben has surpassed Joe Montana's single season bests in both TDs and yardage. When is enough enough? When did "game manager" become a dirty word? When did "running quarterback" become a dirty word?

It is hard enough to win in the NFL without trying to do it in a flashy and explosive way. The best qbs ever play within a system and what sets them apart is their fast decision making, quickness and execution.

Montana was a game manager and he had Rice, Taylor and Jones to throw to.

Aikman was a game manager and he had Irvin, Harper and Novacek to throw to.

Since when did Ben become bigger than these legends? When did football fundamentals change? When did crisp timing routes become outdated?

The fact is Ben is not Brady or Manning and he is never going to put up 30 points a game. The Steelers tried to make that happen with Arians and it did not work. Roethlisberger had Ward, Miller, Wallace, Brown, Sanders and Mendenhall on the same offense and he could not put up 30 points a game.

Ben is lost. He doesn't know who he is. He is being reminded of who he is by the Rooneys through Haley. Ben is a really good dropback quarterback who excels at play-action and improvisation.

Roethlisberger can be a huge part of the Steelers resurgence next year... if he plays from within the team. The great players are great because they make the players around them better. Just ask Hines and Bettis. :tt04:

Finally a post I can in good conscience agree with nearly every point. I agree Ben is lost, but i think the FO contributed to that by asking him to revamp his game, a style that has been productive so far. I agree that Haleys game plan has the potential to work, ( I just do not believe we have had a healthy line or the RBs needed to do it) Haleys game plan was starting to show results even after a shaky start, (those first 3 losses were not entirely on the offense though). I still believe that both parties need to compromise, we need WRs that will catch and hold on to the ball, we need a defense that creates some TO's (24th in the league) we need some defensive and ST scores (1 this year and 2 last year, Chicago had 9 this year and TB while last in defense manage 3 on defensive alone) We need a running game that does not disappear, a RB that can get some tough yards yet can break it outside occasionally, even catch a ball now and then. Would love to have a Marshall Faulk type but they do not show up every day, we have what we have. I believe the Wr just had that type of year that a lot went wrong, still believe in most of them, not ready to throw them away because they are not CJ, Fitz, and not ready to give up[ on our QB just because he is not Peyton or Brady.

lloydwoodson
01-01-2013, 11:44 AM
"Roethlisberger can be a huge part of the Steelers resurgence next year... if he plays from within the team."


Sorry, I disagree.

Ben's stock-in-trade is his ability to make it up as he goes and he does his best work when he's allowed to improvise and that's what Arians tried to let him do. It's also why it never seemed as if there was much of a game plan but with a guy like Ben, that's the best it can look because it's impossible to "game plan" improvisation.

I disagree here. You design a play, the quarterback goes through his progressions, and the quarterback improvises IF the play breaks down. You don't start out improvising.

Ben is more than capable of playing more structured football- he just doesn't wanna. He is best at 5 step drops and get the ball out whether he wants to admit that to himself or not.



Ben was comfortable and when you're comfortable, you tend to do your best work.

Ben is not and should not be a game-manager and Haley along with the Rooneys need to accept that.

I think you hade made a very insightful point here. I don't think there is another OC who will gain Ben's trust the way he did. Arians somehow managed to break through Ben's douchebag persona and become a father figure to him. Now that I think back on it that was pretty damn remarkable! Arians is more clever than he is given credit. Hindsight is 20/20.

At this stage in the game Ben will butt heads with any OC he has. If Jesus was his OC he'd want to kick his ass. I think he likes Arians because Arians let him do it his way and gave him more control.

It is just a shame "Ben's way" doesn't put more points on the board.

Ricco Suavez
01-01-2013, 11:47 AM
That is EXACTLY what it is :applaudit:

But didn't you find it insightful? An NFL OC is said to be the worst in the league by the media one year and is in control of the best offense in the NFL the next. Personnel is much more responsible than coaching for wins.



No but they do go 100 yards on an int for a td in the dying seconds of the first half.

And they do sack the other teams qb on back-to-back plays so he can't orchestrate the superbowl comeback of his own because your qb has waited 119 minutes to throw his first superbowl td.

And they do run back an int 40 yards for a td in the 4th quarter of the AFC championship game to turn a potentially game-winning drive for the other team into a 23-14 win (without which you wouldn't be in the superbowl in the first place).

Well Intelligent posts did not last long. The media did not call Arians the Worst, no that belongs to the fans. In fact there was many articles calling the Steelers out for making such a move.

Next You are playing the what if card again, not what happened. When Ben had his GW SB drive it actually happened after two scores by the Cardinals against our defense, you bring up a defensive score that cemented the win yea that is correct, but its a "what if" scenario. What if the other team scored, then I can say "what if" Ben had a GW drive to save the defense that gave up the lead. You cannot have it both ways.

GoFor7
01-01-2013, 11:52 AM
IMO - Ben isn't under-achieving, he's just plateaued. If you want the offense to do more, he does in fact have to "tweak" something, and that includes his gun-slinging, live by the sword, die by the sword attitude. If you want the rest of his career to be Brett Favreish then rock on.

Or maybe the Steelers should stop fretting over ball control and let Ben win it early. He can't pull miracles out of his ass all the time because the team wants to play Marty ball.

lloydwoodson
01-01-2013, 11:53 AM
Finally a post I can in good conscience agree with nearly every point. I agree Ben is lost, but i think the FO contributed to that by asking him to revamp his game, a style that has been productive so far. I agree that Haleys game plan has the potential to work, ( I just do not believe we have had a healthy line or the RBs needed to do it) Haleys game plan was starting to show results even after a shaky start, (those first 3 losses were not entirely on the offense though). I still believe that both parties need to compromise, we need WRs that will catch and hold on to the ball, we need a defense that creates some TO's (24th in the league) we need some defensive and ST scores (1 this year and 2 last year, Chicago had 9 this year and TB while last in defense manage 3 on defensive alone) We need a running game that does not disappear, a RB that can get some tough yards yet can break it outside occasionally, even catch a ball now and then. Would love to have a Marshall Faulk type but they do not show up every day, we have what we have. I believe the Wr just had that type of year that a lot went wrong, still believe in most of them, not ready to throw them away because they are not CJ, Fitz, and not ready to give up[ on our QB just because he is not Peyton or Brady.

Yeah my true opinion is a lot more moderate than I pretend. I like playing devil's advocate and I also feel you have to fight fire with fire some times. A lot of good dialogue has come from my persistent agitation. :toofunny:

I think Haley is more than willing to throw the ball when required. Ben was throwing the ball 36 times per game. That is a lot. The difference is TEs and RBs are now targeted much more often. I expect another TE and RB to be drafted on day 2.

The defense is not as good as it was. Harrison and Polamalu carried the D for a lot of years and they are fading. It is damn lucky that Timmons is stepping up now and it looks like C Allen will also. Turnovers are huge issue but they won't be generated without a better pass rush. LeBeau did a nice job dialing up inside pressure but the OLBs have to produce! (GoFor7 saying Woodley is so fat he is going to start at NT was really funny but don't tell him I said anything nice about him).

lardlad
01-01-2013, 12:02 PM
You weren't wrong. Arians with his no halfback and use miller more for blocking and five wides on third and inches and end arounds in your own endzone is a total doofus. Oh and how much better could mendy and Parker have been if they had someone leading and making holes. He had a bad oline and ran 30 yd route plays.

Ben did underachieve the second half, but mostly in critical situations. Overall he was pretty good. The offense was awesome on third down first half, I don't ever remember it being that good in all the years BA was here.

Biggest difference I can see is last year we lost situational football because of dumb ass 12 step drop passes that barely ever worked. This year we lost situational football because of player mistakes. We just turned the ball over too many times at at the worst moments. Except SanDiego we got flat out, out coached. So the situational football mistakes had little to do with play calling. At this stage of these guys careers they shouldn't have to be coached on how to protect the ball.

Jury is still out on Haley, but so far IMO he is an upgrade.

Ricco Suavez
01-01-2013, 12:04 PM
Yeah my true opinion is a lot more moderate than I pretend. I like playing devil's advocate and I also feel you have to fight fire with fire some times. A lot of good dialogue has come from my persistent agitation. :toofunny:

I think Haley is more than willing to throw the ball when required. Ben was throwing the ball 36 times per game. That is a lot. The difference is TEs and RBs are now targeted much more often. I expect another TE and RB to be drafted on day 2.

The defense is not as good as it was. Harrison and Polamalu carried the D for a lot of years and they are fading. It is damn lucky that Timmons is stepping up now and it looks like C Allen will also. Turnovers are huge issue but they won't be generated without a better pass rush. LeBeau did a nice job dialing up inside pressure but the OLBs have to produce! (GoFor7 saying Woodley is so fat he is going to start at NT was really funny but don't tell him I said anything nice about him).

Well you do play a good Devils Advocate, and I know that most of your comments about Ben do not stem from me., just as most of mine are not directed to you. Its just this Ben has done nothing for this organization that chaps my butt. He is not a top 3-4 QB but he is what we have and he has had success on his own that is not tied directly to the defense every time. I feel Ben and TB are more alike than we think in that the longer Ben is retire he will be remembered more fondly than he was during his playing days.

lloydwoodson
01-01-2013, 12:09 PM
Well Intelligent posts did not last long. The media did not call Arians the Worst, no that belongs to the fans. In fact there was many articles calling the Steelers out for making such a move.

Next You are playing the what if card again, not what happened. When Ben had his GW SB drive it actually happened after two scores by the Cardinals against our defense, you bring up a defensive score that cemented the win yea that is correct, but its a "what if" scenario. What if the other team scored, then I can say "what if" Ben had a GW drive to save the defense that gave up the lead. You cannot have it both ways.

Oh God. I was talking about J McDaniels not Arians. The OP is about J McD. His offense went from 12 ppg to 36 ppg. If Belichek hadn't given him a job I am not sure who would have.

If you don't want to admit to yourself that the defense played a MONUMENTAL role in the SB XLIII win that is your decision.

The Cardinals were going to score points. Fitzgerald had 546 yards and 7 tds in that playoffs!!! That ties A Brown's career total tds.

They were scoring more than 30 every game. The D held them to 23 points and scored 7 of their own. Not bad.

Ricco Suavez
01-01-2013, 12:17 PM
I am sorry for the mistake of which OC you were talking about, in my defense this is a "an apology to Arians" thread.



Still does not change my opinion of your "spin" on the "what if scenarios"

NSMaster56
01-01-2013, 12:21 PM
IMO - Ben isn't under-achieving, he's just plateaued. If you want the offense to do more, he does in fact have to "tweak" something, and that includes his gun-slinging, live by the sword, die by the sword attitude. If you want the rest of his career to be Brett Favreish then rock on.

This does appear to be the case right now.

Hopefully Big Ben 'takes another leap'. The Steelers can't succeed with a prima-donna gunslinger under center (plus, I hate Brett Favre and couldn't stomach rooting for a newer version of him!).

GoFor7
01-01-2013, 12:25 PM
This does appear to be the case right now.

Hopefully Big Ben 'takes another leap'. The Steelers can't succeed with a prima-donna gunslinger under center (plus, I hate Brett Favre and couldn't stomach rooting for a newer version of him!).

I'm really not sure where this mentality about Ben comes from....

He can't win it all the time when the Steelers just try to play ball-control for the majority of the game. He tries to bail the Steelers out from their own stupidity at the end of the game, but he's not going to every time. This offense had no killer instinct. Just sat on a ball and hoped the defense would keep it close. Result: 8-8.

plenewken
01-01-2013, 12:26 PM
Excuse me, but how many Super Bowls have the team with the "best quarterback ever" (Tom Brady) won in the last 7 years?

Answer: 0. Yes, that would mean ZERO!

How many last minute, game-winning drives has he had in the last 7 Super Bowls?

Answer: 0 again!


I think someone's theory may have some holes in it.

Since Ben and Eli Manning have entered thier prime years, they have won 4 of the last 7 Super Bowls. I would like an explanation for this obvious but never mentioned fact.

Ben's and Eli's teams have won 4 of the last 7 SBs. As far as how much contribution these 2 had in their respective wins, I will say that Ben's contribution was extremely poor compared to Eli's.
He threw a combined total of 1 TD pass and 3 INT in the 2 SBs he won.
Eli threw 3TD passes and 1 INT in the 2 SBs he won.

It's not even necessary to look at the QB ratings for these 4 SBs because the domination of Eli is even more obvious. Ben holds a record that will be very hard to beat : a QB rating of 22.6 in the SB against Seattle.

TRH
01-01-2013, 12:26 PM
I think Arians is a good OC, not a great one. I was never one of the "haters" although i was happy to see him go and i think Haley (as long as he's not offered a head-coaching job somewhere else which is entirely possible) will work out better in the long run than Bruce did. Arian's just wasn't a good fit here.

Funny now to see Arians as one of the hottest, some say the hottest, HC'ing candidates out there right now.

TRH
01-01-2013, 12:29 PM
These 'knocking' Ben posts are so ridiculous i don't even have a comment for them.
There were a hundred other reasons our offense didn't go anywhere this year. Our QB actually had good stats and good accuracy. He made a couple bungles along the way - but many elite QB's in this league - made far many more and bigger mistakes.
No running game, injuries out the a**, OL can't open holes, OL can't protect the QB for more than 1.4 seconds, WR's dropping ball after ball after ball, fumbles, and on...and on....and on....and on.

harrison'samonster
01-01-2013, 12:34 PM
I agree, the OC and Ben made mistakes, but as I saw it our major problems were injuries and then the running game came to a hault mainly due to injuries and mental mistakes. Therefore our offense became one-sided and stalled.

We can argue whether Ben is great or good or bad or ok. I know he makes mistakes and that the media view of him isn't so great, but he wins games and he's helped us win two SB's and go to one more.

NSMaster56
01-01-2013, 12:43 PM
I'm really not sure where this mentality about Ben comes from....

He can't win it all the time when the Steelers just try to play ball-control for the majority of the game. He tries to bail the Steelers out from their own stupidity at the end of the game, but he's not going to every time. This offense had no killer instinct. Just sat on a ball and hoped the defense would keep it close. Result: 8-8.

Not trying to knock Ben, it's just hard to back him blindly.

Much like Favre, it seems like he's bought into his own BS (and it's a terrifying omen).

He's portrayed as a 'playmaker'---which he is---so he's trying too hard to be that 'playmaker' every play/game.

The team won championships when they were a ball-control O first and Ben used his heroics only when neccessary.

Ever since Fast Willie's tires ran out of tread and Ben's been 'the guy', the O has tried and failed to build around him Brady/Brees style and the team has fallen short of winning another title. Ben's stats have gotten better, but the team hasn't.

Ben's a great player, it's just hard to tell if he's a great leader yet. Sometimes being a great/the best leader means game managing and not worrying about individual stats.

It's not all his fault, the lack of OL and run game is certainly a factor, as has been the play calling and schemes (for years), but something's gotta give.

Everyone wants to be the 79 Steelers/89 49ers/99 Rams: win and look good on paper.

Me, I just want my team to win. 05 and 08 weren't pretty offensively, but titles, not stats, are all that matter.

FanSince72
01-01-2013, 12:45 PM
I disagree here. You design a play, the quarterback goes through his progressions, and the quarterback improvises IF the play breaks down. You don't start out improvising.

Ben is more than capable of playing more structured football- he just doesn't wanna. He is best at 5 step drops and get the ball out whether he wants to admit that to himself or not.





I think you hade made a very insightful point here. I don't think there is another OC who will gain Ben's trust the way he did. Arians somehow managed to break through Ben's douchebag persona and become a father figure to him. Now that I think back on it that was pretty damn remarkable! Arians is more clever than he is given credit. Hindsight is 20/20.

At this stage in the game Ben will butt heads with any OC he has. If Jesus was his OC he'd want to kick his ass. I think he likes Arians because Arians let him do it his way and gave him more control.

It is just a shame "Ben's way" doesn't put more points on the board.


I get what you're saying but please understand that I was not suggesting that Ben be allowed to make it up or that Arians was always doing that.

What I was trying to say was that Arians saw in Ben a need to be himself and I really do believe that his plays were more "suggestions" than hard and fast "X's and O's" because he knew that if the actual play DID break down, Ben would be able to deal with it.

Haley, on the other hand, seems to need that "X's and O's" structure and I get the sense that he's forcing Ben into following the plan exactly as written and that isn't working.

I also agree with your "Father figure" analogy and I think that's exactly what Arians was and more importantly what Ben needs. Haley is the opposite and I think that Ben responds the way a kid might - that he resists Haley's structure because he doesn't get the nurturing from Haley that he was accustomed to getting from Arians.

Whether that's right or wrong is debatable, but the fact that Arians has had such success over at Indy with his "Father Flannagan" persona tends to support the argument that nurturing may very well be a better way to go than trying to "Lay Down the Law" as Haley seems to want to do.

Let's face it, guys like Ben are really just big kids and no kid really responds all that well to someone yelling at them - especially when that kid knows how good he is at something. Ben still has a lot of growing up to do and I think that he will mature. But I also think that Arians was "working on that" with him as well and now that that relationship has been dissolved, I think Ben does indeed seem lost.

Arians was good for him and the truth is that Ben was a better QB and the team as a whole was more successful with BA and I don't see Haley having that kind of rapport or success with Ben or with the team as a whole.

NSMaster56
01-01-2013, 12:47 PM
Funny now to see Arians as one of the hottest, some say the hottest, HC'ing candidates out there right now.

So were Chan Gailey and Mike Mularkey once upon a time...

lloydwoodson
01-01-2013, 12:51 PM
So were Chan Gailey and Mike Mularkey once upon a time...

Hahaha too true.

fer522
01-01-2013, 12:54 PM
Excuse me, but how many Super Bowls have the team with the "best quarterback ever" (Tom Brady) won in the last 7 years?

Answer: 0. Yes, that would mean ZERO!

How many last minute, game-winning drives has he had in the last 7 Super Bowls?

Answer: 0 again!


I think someone's theory may have some holes in it.

Since Ben and Eli Manning have entered thier prime years, they have won 4 of the last 7 Super Bowls. I would like an explanation for this obvious but never mentioned fact.

Steelers D
Giants. D:noidea:

SteelersCanada
01-01-2013, 12:59 PM
Steelers D
Giants. D:noidea:

You're right. Our D is so good we should go ahead and trade for Brandon Weeden because our D can just take us to the Super Bowl every year and Roethlisberger had absolutely nothing to do with it. In fact, Brandon Weeden might be too talented. Let's go grab Blaine Gabbert and win a couple of championships because having an elite quarterback doesn't matter if your D is good, right?

Kansas City's D is truly talented as well, but they're picking first overall. Cleveland's D is good, too.

I'd like you to explain the fact that when Eli and Ben both have down seasons, both the Giants and Steelers miss the playoffs. I'm going to go ahead and assume this is a coincidence though, right? Maybe the D had down years and that's what caused us to miss it.

This whole discussion is so stupid it's mind-blowing.

fansince'76
01-01-2013, 01:18 PM
Also, Ben is an underachieving Quarterback? He has two Super Bowl rings. What the fuck else does this guy have to do to earn respect from the fans in this town?

300 yards, 5 TDs (at least) per week, every week, every year. Never minding that his play before his injury this year was the difference between this team finishing 8-8 and 2-14.

plenewken
01-01-2013, 01:19 PM
because having an elite quarterback doesn't matter if your D is good, right?

It sure didn't matter against Seattle that our QB wasn't "elite" but it was not even mid-tier.



I'd like you to explain the fact that when Eli and Ben both have down seasons, both the Giants and Steelers miss the playoffs. I'm going to go ahead and assume this is a coincidence though, right? Maybe the D had down years and that's what caused us to miss it.

I'd like you to tell us when exactly the Steelers had a good season offense wise. By good, I mean top tier in points scored BY THE OFFENSE.
And after you've found it, I'd like to you tell us when exactly has the Steelers O been ranked higher than the D.
This should keep you busy for a while. <g>

SteelersCanada
01-01-2013, 01:46 PM
It sure didn't matter against Seattle that our QB wasn't "elite" but it was not even mid-tier.

He was in his second season and is still the youngest quarterback to ever win a Super Bowl. He was young and inexperienced. I'd love for you to point me to a second year quarterback that is considered elite. It's ok, I'll wait. For you to say he wasn't mid-tier after that performance in the playoffs (excluding the Seahawk game) is insane. Take the "I Hate Ben" glasses off and look at his performance in those games.

I'd like you to tell us when exactly the Steelers had a good season offense wise. By good, I mean top tier in points scored BY THE OFFENSE.
And after you've found it, I'd like to you tell us when exactly has the Steelers O been ranked higher than the D.
This should keep you busy for a while. <g>

Again, they don't need to put up 30+ points a game and tons of yardage because that's not the game that Ben plays. The fans here love, love, love the 'power run' and 'smashmouth football'. When you play this style of football as we're accustomed to, we're not going to pile up the points. Ben is just starting to hit his prime and the offense is starting to be built around him with a decent offensive line that can hold a pocket for more than 3 seconds. His numbers are going to go up, just give it time. Asking him to put up Brady numbers is unrealistic and crazy - we don't play that style of offense and don't have guys named Rob Gronkowski, Aaron Hernandez and Wes Welker that will gain yards upfield consistently.

I'm not saying our defense wasn't - and probably still is - amazing. But, asking our offense to put up points and yardage when most of our fanbase wants a 'run it up the middle! play smashmouth!' style of offense isn't realistic. How about we play pass-first and acquire a legitimate Running Back so Ben doesn't have to make magic happen on third down every time.

MasterOfPuppets
01-01-2013, 02:01 PM
"...5 years of horrible game plans and play calling..."?

Do you seriously believe that?

5 winning seasons
Only one of them with less than 10 wins (3 with 12 wins)
2 Super Bowl appearances
1 Super Bowl win.

Yeah, that's pretty horrible stuff alright!

And let's not forget THIS year with Indy; 11-5 and missing a Division Title by just one game with a young team and a rookie QB AND while serving double-duty as both the Head Coach and the OC - and the team LOVES him not to mention that his name is popping up all over the place for a HC job.

Yeah, this Arians dude is a real cancer! :sofunny:
yes i absolutely do believe that...if you wanna give arians credit for bens scrambling ability and turning chicken shit into chicken salad then go ahead....i'm not. :noidea:
how many of those plays on that game winning super bowl drive do you think were done the way arians drew em up ? :popcorn:

oh and lets just conveniently leave dick lebeaus league leading defenses out of the conversation....its not like they pulled arians offense out of the fire more often than not...

AndyWitmyer
01-01-2013, 02:01 PM
I did originally type this in another thread, but maybe it would be more appropriate here (or in the re-hire Whiz thread):

I love Ben - I think that's obvious - but I don't think he's very good at accepting criticism when it comes from others. Sure, he'll criticize himself - but, when you look at "verbally tougher" OCs like Haley and Whiz, and their "relationship" with Ben, I think the proof is in the pudding.

Ben loved Arians bc the dude was a pushover who was more than willing to let Ben be Ben. Obviously, this wasn't always a bad thing - Ben had some great seasons under Arians - but, also some pretty mediocre ones. He had an excellent start with Whiz, but not always (2006 anyone?) - with just one season under Haley, Ben started out great but faltered post-injury midseason.

I think the point I'm trying to make here is that Ben is a great QB, but like Terry - he comes with his own set of flaws. And one of them is not taking constructive criticism as professionally as he should. He's, overall, a top-notch QB regardless of whoever's calling the plays - but he can be a real pr*ck towards anyone who doesn't want to be "best buds"...and that shouldn't be Haley (or any other OC's job, for that matter).

Ricco Suavez
01-01-2013, 02:06 PM
It sure didn't matter against Seattle that our QB wasn't "elite" but it was not even mid-tier.



I'd like you to tell us when exactly the Steelers had a good season offense wise. By good, I mean top tier in points scored BY THE OFFENSE.
And after you've found it, I'd like to you tell us when exactly has the Steelers O been ranked higher than the D.
This should keep you busy for a while. <g>

You are one of those who point to Ben's first SB as a barometer of his play yet refuse to even mention his playoff success the same year. Thats ok that would weaken your argument.

Top ten Pittsburgh offenses as far as points 07,05,02,01,97,95,95,85,84,82,81, and finally 79 where we was #1. I would like to point out that other the 79 season the only top 5 was 1995, when we had a passing offense with O'Donnell. Ohter top ten season were mostly 7th, 8th, or 9th.

Season that have been not so good 12,11,08,98,90,89,87. The 1998 season we ranked 28th, 89 and 90 were back to back seasons of 24th and 20th.

I posted before the season started , to take caution with all the hype of a high scoring offense. The success of the WR from the season before and the addition of Haley had peoples head giddy from thoughts of 30+ games. Those kind of games are just not in the Steeler DNA. We have always played tough defense and played close to the vest offensively. We do not run up scores that lend to inflated averages. We have always played close games, not just since Ben or Tomlin have appeared but throughout our franchise history. We played close games this season and we lost most of them, if you want to blame Ben for that than so be it, he did not pull the teams collective ass from the fire this year. We have used a ton of cap money in the past securing defensive players, Woodley (highest yearly salary on the team) Timmons, Harrison, Troy to name a few. We are just now signing people other than the QB to help on offense (although I agree Heath was not used properly for years). We are eventually getting some quality bodies on the OL that was left in disarray for too many years. One season does not kill a franchise, and history has shown the Steelers bounced back as well as any one, we do not stay down long. How bout the Bills a dynasty in the 90's and now an afterthought. (yes I know they did not win a SB, but 4 years in row as AFC champions qualify). We will be back, and it will be with Ben and Tomlin leading the offense and team.

plenewken
01-01-2013, 02:49 PM
He was in his second season and is still the youngest quarterback to ever win a Super Bowl. He was young and inexperienced. I'd love for you to point me to a second year quarterback that is considered elite. It's ok, I'll wait. For you to say he wasn't mid-tier after that performance in the playoffs (excluding the Seahawk game) is insane. Take the "I Hate Ben" glasses off and look at his performance in those games.

How could have Ben been elite after 2 seasons, he's not even elite after 8? Just so you know, for me elite is being consistently ranked in the top 5.



Again, they don't need to put up 30+ points a game and tons of yardage because that's not the game that Ben plays. The fans here love, love, love the 'power run' and 'smashmouth football'. When you play this style of football as we're accustomed to, we're not going to pile up the points. Ben is just starting to hit his prime and the offense is starting to be built around him with a decent offensive line that can hold a pocket for more than 3 seconds. His numbers are going to go up, just give it time. Asking him to put up Brady numbers is unrealistic and crazy - we don't play that style of offense and don't have guys named Rob Gronkowski, Aaron Hernandez and Wes Welker that will gain yards upfield consistently.

I must have missed something. What "game" Ben plays for $11.7M/year? It's not football? The fans here, and I mean here as in Pittsburgh, love dominant football. They couldn't care less if it's running or passing, what they love is an offense that can make a statement early in the game and capable of putting points on the board. This means FGs and Defensive INTs don't count for the offense and even if the team wins, fans know who put the points on the board. They're not blind nor stupid.

Now, Gronkowski and Hernandez have nothing that Miller doesn't have and Welker has nothing that Wallace/Brown don't have, except a QB that can quickly hit them in stride and on the numbers.

I contend that one of the main reasons for our poor passing performance is our passer. Ben's ball is very often wobbly, therefore tougher to catch than a pure spiral, and very often it is also badly overthrown or underthrown. What use is a rocket like Wallace if he has to slow down, if not come back to catch Ben's pass?

Ricco Suavez
01-01-2013, 02:54 PM
I am going to only address two things you typed. First I think Heat is the equal of nearly every TE in the league, but up to this year he has been used to help block and with the injuries to the line he has had to once again be used more in blocking schemes than passing,. Second Heath is only one person, Gronk and Hernandez are a two headed monster. Third Wes Welker Is one of the toughest and most sure handed receivers in the game, (a miniature Heath) our other receivers do not even come close to this type of possession receiver, Hines on the other hand was similar but older when here and he had pretty good seasons.

Bayz101
01-01-2013, 02:58 PM
Don't disguise this as anything other than ANOTHER thread bashing Ben Roethlisberger, because THAT is exactly what it is.

SteelersCanada
01-01-2013, 03:15 PM
I must have missed something. What "game" Ben plays for $11.7M/year? It's not football? The fans here, and I mean here as in Pittsburgh, love dominant football. They couldn't care less if it's running or passing, what they love is an offense that can make a statement early in the game and capable of putting points on the board. This means FGs and Defensive INTs don't count for the offense and even if the team wins, fans know who put the points on the board. They're not blind nor stupid.

This isn't true. Why do you think there's so many topics on bringing in a Running Back that "runs like Jerome Bettis!" or "we need another Jerome Bettis!"? It's because they love the up-the-gut, North-South running and Haley is giving them exactly what they're asking for. Now, seeing as it's 2012 not 1978, it's not going to work as well as we'd all like. We have an elite (yes, elite) quarterback and we're not using him.

Now, Gronkowski and Hernandez have nothing that Miller doesn't have and Welker has nothing that Wallace/Brown don't have, except a QB that can quickly hit them in stride and on the numbers.

This just simply isn't true. Heath Miller is a great Tight End, but he's not on the same level as Gronkowski - he just isn't. There's no other TE's in the league that are on his level, including Gonzalez. As for Welker, he has more reliable hands than Wallace and usually makes the big catch. There's a reason why Welker is going to be wanted by more teams than Wallace is - he's more reliable.

I contend that one of the main reasons for our poor passing performance is our passer. Ben's ball is very often wobbly, therefore tougher to catch than a pure spiral, and very often it is also badly overthrown or underthrown. What use is a rocket like Wallace if he has to slow down, if not come back to catch Ben's pass?

This just isn't correct, either. Ben has a cannon of an arm and took how much shit for overthrowing Wallace in the Super Bowl? He's overthrown Mike more times than not and for you to say Wallace has to "come back to the ball" isn't true. I like how you keep saying "poor performance" by Ben, as if he wasn't the reason why we had 6 wins in the first 10 weeks of the season. He put this team on his back and won games without any help from the defense.

You're picking on Ben's spiral? That's reaching, buddy.

GoFor7
01-01-2013, 03:39 PM
I posted before the season started , to take caution with all the hype of a high scoring offense. The success of the WR from the season before and the addition of Haley had peoples head giddy from thoughts of 30+ games. Those kind of games are just not in the Steeler DNA. We have always played tough defense and played close to the vest offensively.

That's what I've been saying all along, but it seems to go in one ear and out the other.

Wouldn't you saying playing that kind of style is tempting fate? In 2008 the Steelers were fortunate to see Ben bail them out as many times as he did. Can't expect him to do it every time. The Steelers need to wake up and realize that philosophy is outdated.

Whenever one of the Ben haters mentions how great Brady and Manning are, they don't seem to realize that those QBs don't play in offenses that play close to the vest (or if they do they ignore it because it doesn't fit their Ben bashing argument). Those QBs are known for greatness because their teams let them win the game early on. They don't fret over time of possession, they put emphasis on scoring.

You'd think the Steelers would learn after getting humiliated by teams like that time after time - but perhaps they worry more about being right when playing those teams.

tanda10506
01-01-2013, 05:25 PM
Clearly our WR's are overrated, our O line can't stay healthy, and our other talent positions on offense who are under performing (except Heath), but that doesn't mean that throwing a bunch of lame as screen plays and running out of the shotgun if at all was the answer.

austinfrench76
01-01-2013, 06:03 PM
No one was wrong about Arians!!! He got some praise and alot of deserved criticism!!!! Haley will be fine, and IMO, a VERY good OC for us. It will depend on Ben. He makes decisions within the offense that effect the outcome. Case in point, the Dallas game. He criticized Haley for not throwing more to Heath when the truth was that he audibled out of some of those plays bc the Defense dictated!! Haley will have more opps next year bc he will have another year under his belt with this offensive personnel. Give the man a chance!

ETL
01-01-2013, 06:09 PM
People are so nearsighted on this board.

Waaaaay to early to give kudos to Arians for the success of the Colts this year.

Let's see how he does over time before issuing stupid apologies such as this.

jiminpa
01-01-2013, 06:17 PM
People are so nearsighted on this board.

Waaaaay to early to give kudos to Arians for the success of the Colts this year.

Let's see how he does over time before issuing stupid apologies such as this.Don't worry, he'll fall back to his default ways soon enough, and I don't think the Colts will be nearly as patient.

SteelBobbleHead
01-01-2013, 06:22 PM
I am not exactly sure how much blame to put on Haley. Rooney made it clear that he wanted a more efficient running game (he never said a dominant run game) and to keep Ben from taking so many hits.
IMO Haley accomplished both. We certainly converted more 3rd and shorts this year in the run game. That wasn't a hard upgrade since under Arians more often than not a 3rd and short was tried to be converted with an empty backfield.
Ben also took less hits this year, although that didn't keep him from getting hurt.
My main concern is that while to accomplish the goal of Ben taking less hits Haley also took away the strength of Ben and the WR's. These wr strength is to get up the field. Wallace has never been known for his route running ability. While he still ended the season with 8 TD's they still did not utilize his strength is stretching the field.
Brown and Sanders both have the ability to use their quickness in the short passing game but their lack of size does not suit them for the punishment they took from LB's.
Ben actually surprised me this year. I was one who never thought Ben was very good at reading the coverage, hence his propensity for holding onto the ball. He proved me wrong. He did very well in the " hitting his back foot and delivering the ball" approach. His accuracy was astounding.......up until his injury. After his return from injury Ben lost that accuracy. I contribute that to the injury. Anyone who has ever had a shoulder injury, or a rib injury know they are both extremely painful. I can't imagine how bad they would be together.
To my point now......what good is it to have Ben take less hits ( to prolong his carreer) if you aren't going to provide him with wr's that can thrive in a short passing game?

steelfury02
01-01-2013, 06:22 PM
"Roethlisberger can be a huge part of the Steelers resurgence next year... if he plays from within the team."


Sorry, I disagree.

Ben's stock-in-trade is his ability to make it up as he goes and he does his best work when he's allowed to improvise and that's what Arians tried to let him do. It's also why it never seemed as if there was much of a game plan but with a guy like Ben, that's the best it can look because it's impossible to "game plan" improvisation.

Haley, on the other hand, is trying to turn Ben into some sort of robot, pocket-passer and that's like trying using a Ferrari as a grocery-getter. But Haley's ego cannot allow Ben to be who he is because Ben - not Haley - might get the credit for doing great things and guys like Haley can't deal with that.

Arians had no such ego problems and thus was able to experiment and try to let Ben's strong points rule the day. It didn't always work, but more often than not it did and most importantly, Ben was comfortable and when you're comfortable, you tend to do your best work.

Ben is not and should not be a game-manager and Haley along with the Rooneys need to accept that.

Ben's plateaued. More fans need to accept that idea as well. It isn't a matter of him trying to prove his guts and sandlot style to the fans - he's already done that. People who notice that he is stuck at one phase of development are asking him to do more and he absolutely needs to evolve to keep his legacy growing. Ben has won in the most unorthodox ways - at that's great, but just doesn't cut it anymore. You can keep repeating 2x SB winning QB until your blue in the face, but I ask - where has that 4th quarter magic gone? It'll be going on 4 seasons until his last SB victory, but at his rate - that's more like 8 seasons for him. How much more time do you think we have left with him? You might have to accept that his biggest successes have come and gone already if he remains the same. Maybe it won't - maybe I'm totally wrong and his 30+ something body will revert back to its old self, and he'll run around and make something out of nothing even more than he ever did - that's what it will take in his current form. I think defenses have figured out a way to minimize that damage more often than they used to though.

Ben's strong points were great when he was still the fresh 20-something taking the league by storm. While he deserves all the praise for being gutsy - we need a lot more from Ben than guts. He needs to get back to where he was before KC game, and then build on it. Haley was in fact letting him be himself if the play broke down, but - it looked to me as their repertoire was growing, and he was getting the ball out to a variety of play-makers - even the freaking FB was becoming a factor.

If you want the fans who are criticizing Ben to shut up, he needs to go through his progressions, he needs to look off defenders, he needs to throw it away more often instead of hoping for the home-run and getting sacked out of field goal range. He needs to be smarter about reading the defense and audible into something that will actually exploit a weakness.

In short - I'm tired of the live by the sword, die by the sword, ever-growing close resemblance to Brett Favre. Mr. John Wayne can have his oohhs and ahhs. I want him to start having more faith in something other than his ego and come to the conclusion that he doesn't exactly know best - its proven already by lack of points, and the fact that he looks down upon the "dink and dunk" but sits back and praises players that have utilized it to perfection proves this madness.

GoFor7
01-01-2013, 06:27 PM
Ben's plateaued. More fans need to accept that idea as well. It isn't a matter of him trying to prove his guts and sandlot style to the fans - he's already done that. People who notice that he is stuck at one phase of development are asking him to do more and he absolutely needs to evolve to keep his legacy growing. Ben has won in the most unorthodox ways - at that's great, but just doesn't cut it anymore. You can keep repeating 2x SB winning QB until your blue in the face, but I ask - where has that 4th quarter magic gone? It'll be going on 4 seasons until his last SB victory, but at his rate - that's more like 8 seasons for him. How much more time do you think we have left with him? You might have to accept that his biggest successes have come and gone already if he remains the same. Maybe it won't - maybe I'm totally wrong and his 30+ something body will revert back to its old self, and he'll run around and make something out of nothing even more than he ever did - that's what it will take in his current form. I think defenses have figured out a way to minimize that damage more often than they used to though.

Ben's strong points were great when he was still the fresh 20-something taking the league by storm. While he deserves all the praise for being gutsy - we need a lot more from Ben than guts. He needs to get back to where he was before KC game, and then build on it. Haley was in fact letting him be himself if the play broke down, but - it looked to me as their repertoire was growing, and he was getting the ball out to a variety of play-makers - even the freaking FB was becoming a factor.

If you want the fans who are criticizing Ben to shut up, he needs to go through his progressions, he needs to look off defenders, he needs to throw it away more often instead of hoping for the home-run and getting sacked out of field goal range. He needs to be smarter about reading the defense and audible into something that will actually exploit a weakness.

In short - I'm tired of the live by the sword, die by the sword, ever-growing close resemblance to Brett Favre. Mr. John Wayne can have his oohhs and ahhs. I want him to start having more faith in something other than his ego and come to the conclusion that he doesn't exactly know best - its proven already by lack of points, and the fact that he looks down upon the "dink and dunk" but sits back and praises players that have utilized it to perfection proves this madness.

Or they need to let him win the game early instead of playing Marty ball and then asking Ben to bail them out at the end when that doesn't work.

OX1947
01-01-2013, 06:37 PM
Ben's plateaued. More fans need to accept that idea as well. It isn't a matter of him trying to prove his guts and sandlot style to the fans - he's already done that. People who notice that he is stuck at one phase of development are asking him to do more and he absolutely needs to evolve to keep his legacy growing. Ben has won in the most unorthodox ways - at that's great, but just doesn't cut it anymore. You can keep repeating 2x SB winning QB until your blue in the face, but I ask - where has that 4th quarter magic gone? It'll be going on 4 seasons until his last SB victory, but at his rate - that's more like 8 seasons for him. How much more time do you think we have left with him? You might have to accept that his biggest successes have come and gone already if he remains the same. Maybe it won't - maybe I'm totally wrong and his 30+ something body will revert back to its old self, and he'll run around and make something out of nothing even more than he ever did - that's what it will take in his current form. I think defenses have figured out a way to minimize that damage more often than they used to though.

Ben's strong points were great when he was still the fresh 20-something taking the league by storm. While he deserves all the praise for being gutsy - we need a lot more from Ben than guts. He needs to get back to where he was before KC game, and then build on it. Haley was in fact letting him be himself if the play broke down, but - it looked to me as their repertoire was growing, and he was getting the ball out to a variety of play-makers - even the freaking FB was becoming a factor.

If you want the fans who are criticizing Ben to shut up, he needs to go through his progressions, he needs to look off defenders, he needs to throw it away more often instead of hoping for the home-run and getting sacked out of field goal range. He needs to be smarter about reading the defense and audible into something that will actually exploit a weakness.

In short - I'm tired of the live by the sword, die by the sword, ever-growing close resemblance to Brett Favre. Mr. John Wayne can have his oohhs and ahhs. I want him to start having more faith in something other than his ego and come to the conclusion that he doesn't exactly know best - its proven already by lack of points, and the fact that he looks down upon the "dink and dunk" but sits back and praises players that have utilized it to perfection proves this madness.

Right there. That is a fact.

GoFor7
01-01-2013, 06:41 PM
Ben's plateaued. More fans need to accept that idea as well. It isn't a matter of him trying to prove his guts and sandlot style to the fans - he's already done that. People who notice that he is stuck at one phase of development are asking him to do more and he absolutely needs to evolve to keep his legacy growing. Ben has won in the most unorthodox ways - at that's great, but just doesn't cut it anymore. You can keep repeating 2x SB winning QB until your blue in the face, but I ask - where has that 4th quarter magic gone? It'll be going on 4 seasons until his last SB victory, but at his rate - that's more like 8 seasons for him. How much more time do you think we have left with him? You might have to accept that his biggest successes have come and gone already if he remains the same. Maybe it won't - maybe I'm totally wrong and his 30+ something body will revert back to its old self, and he'll run around and make something out of nothing even more than he ever did - that's what it will take in his current form. I think defenses have figured out a way to minimize that damage more often than they used to though.

Ben's strong points were great when he was still the fresh 20-something taking the league by storm. While he deserves all the praise for being gutsy - we need a lot more from Ben than guts. He needs to get back to where he was before KC game, and then build on it. Haley was in fact letting him be himself if the play broke down, but - it looked to me as their repertoire was growing, and he was getting the ball out to a variety of play-makers - even the freaking FB was becoming a factor.

If you want the fans who are criticizing Ben to shut up, he needs to go through his progressions, he needs to look off defenders, he needs to throw it away more often instead of hoping for the home-run and getting sacked out of field goal range. He needs to be smarter about reading the defense and audible into something that will actually exploit a weakness.

In short - I'm tired of the live by the sword, die by the sword, ever-growing close resemblance to Brett Favre. Mr. John Wayne can have his oohhs and ahhs. I want him to start having more faith in something other than his ego and come to the conclusion that he doesn't exactly know best - its proven already by lack of points, and the fact that he looks down upon the "dink and dunk" but sits back and praises players that have utilized it to perfection proves this madness.

A lot of fans still have trouble getting the fact he can't always bail the team out when they choose to play Marty ball for the first 58 minutes...

Like I said - more points earlier.

pczach
01-01-2013, 08:38 PM
Ben's and Eli's teams have won 4 of the last 7 SBs. As far as how much contribution these 2 had in their respective wins, I will say that Ben's contribution was extremely poor compared to Eli's.
He threw a combined total of 1 TD pass and 3 INT in the 2 SBs he won.
Eli threw 3TD passes and 1 INT in the 2 SBs he won.

It's not even necessary to look at the QB ratings for these 4 SBs because the domination of Eli is even more obvious. Ben holds a record that will be very hard to beat : a QB rating of 22.6 in the SB against Seattle.

So let's see. Eli spins around, escapes the rush, throws up a prayer, and the ball sticks to the helmet of his TE. An unbelievable catch! He then throws the game-winning TD to a dominant WR, Plaxico Burress, Who easily beats his man and is wide open for the winning score(You know, the guy Ben didn't have to throw to anymore). Oh, and Eli's front four dominate Tom Brady "The Best QB Ever", and the Giants win the game.

In Ben's super bowl against the Cardinals, He was the entire offense for the Steelers. Making escape after escape and moving the chains. His#1 ranked defense giving up a 2 score lead again, only to have Ben lead his team 90 yards(All Ben) for the game winning TD. He had to make the winning throw twice because his receiver dropped the first perfect pass that would have won the game. He had to throw a second perfect game-winning TD pass to a receiver that was covered like tighty whities on a fat ass.Then he had to watch his WR win MVP of the super bowl when everybody that saw the game knows Ben Roethlisberger won that game for the Steelers.

Anything you'd like to add?

Fire Arians
01-01-2013, 08:41 PM
arians suck

ZoneBlitzer
01-01-2013, 09:23 PM
So let's see. Eli spins around, escapes the rush, throws up a prayer, and the ball sticks to the helmet of his TE. An unbelievable catch! He then throws the game-winning TD to a dominant WR, Plaxico Burress, Who easily beats his man and is wide open for the winning score(You know, the guy Ben didn't have to throw to anymore). Oh, and Eli's front four dominate Tom Brady "The Best QB Ever", and the Giants win the game.

In Ben's super bowl against the Cardinals, He was the entire offense for the Steelers. Making escape after escape and moving the chains. His#1 ranked defense giving up a 2 score lead again, only to have Ben lead his team 90 yards(All Ben) for the game winning TD. He had to make the winning throw twice because his receiver dropped the first perfect pass that would have won the game. He had to throw a second perfect game-winning TD pass to a receiver that was covered like tighty whities on a fat ass.Then he had to watch his WR win MVP of the super bowl when everybody that saw the game knows Ben Roethlisberger won that game for the Steelers.

Anything you'd like to add?

Cardinals offense outscored the Steelers offense in that game. As I recall the Steelers offense sputtered in the second half and surprisingly didn't have the necessary killer instinct to put the game away. It took the Cards to take the lead for the Steelers to wake up.

Say what you want about Eli but the kid made the necessary plays to help his team win. And they were great plays I might add. IMO he has outplayed Ben in two Superbowls. That's not to say Ben played great in SB 43.

Ricco Suavez
01-01-2013, 09:31 PM
Cardinals offense outscored the Steelers offense in that game. As I recall the Steelers offense sputtered in the second half and surprisingly didn't have the necessary killer instinct to put the game away. It took the Cards to take the lead for the Steelers to wake up.

Say what you want about Eli but the kid made the necessary plays to help his team win. And they were great plays I might add. IMO he has outplayed Ben in two Superbowls. That's not to say Ben played great in SB 43.

Patriots, top scoring team in two SB against the Giants and they score 14 and 17. While the Giants offense scored 17 and 19 against a bottom 2 defense. Now who did more the Giants offense or the Giants Defense. Or heres a thought Brady who is on this board the best ever choked like a dog, which is it. Love these kind of comparisons Ben is "carried' by the defense but Eli is the "savior".

As far as the Cardinals outscoring the Steeler offense, not hard to believe since I watched a two score lead blow up in less than 4 minutes in the fourth Quarter by our defense, I am sure Ben was cheering on the Cardinals so he could have that 4th quarter comeback. Puhleseee........... Stop this BS

ZoneBlitzer
01-01-2013, 09:37 PM
Patriots, top scoring team in two SB against the Giants and they score 14 and 17. While the Giants offense scored 17 and 19 against a bottom 2 defense. Now who did more the Giants offense or the Giants Defense. Or heres a thought Brady who is on this board the best ever choked like a dog, which is it. Love these kind of comparisons Ben is "carried' by the defense but Eli is the "savior".

As far as the Cardinals outscoring the Steeler offense, not hard to believe since I watched a two score lead blow up in less than 4 minutes in the fourth Quarter by our defense, I am sure Ben was cheering on the Cardinals so he could have that 4th quarter comeback. Puhleseee........... Stop this BS

Giants D definitely was the true difference in those games.

I don't know what you are alluding to with Ben cheering on the cards. All I know is that had the O had any sort of consistency and killer instinct, that game would've been well out of reach.

Ricco Suavez
01-01-2013, 10:02 PM
Giants D definitely was the true difference in those games.

I don't know what you are alluding to with Ben cheering on the cards. All I know is that had the O had any sort of consistency and killer instinct, that game would've been well out of reach.

The "cheering on the cards" was in reference to one poster who believes when Ben plays bad it is to insure that he has a chance to "play hero". You evidently have not had the pleasure of such a reference. For that I am sorry. Killer instincts aside the defense did give up two score in less than 4 minutes, and I will argue with anyone that Bens last drive was much better than Eli and heres why.

Eli/Giants from their own 17 2:39 on clock Eli completes 5 of 9 with two runs and a sack, We all know the miracle catch by Tyree but there was also a 4th and 1 converted in that series.

Ben /Steelers from their own 22, First play completed pass, holding called, now on the 12 yard line. Ben completes 6 of 8 and runs one time his self for 4 yds. No 4th downs just a methodical march down the field, no miracle catches needed (Holmes makes a great catch for TD, yet he admits later that the pass before was much easier he just missed it. So Ben completes 7 of 9 with one called back for holding and Holmes misses one his passes that would of been 6 of 7.

lloydwoodson
01-01-2013, 11:31 PM
Or they need to let him win the game early instead of playing Marty ball and then asking Ben to bail them out at the end when that doesn't work.

There were THREE games this year when Ben did not throw more than 30 times.

1. When he got hurt against KC in the terrible weather.

2. When he had a 58 quarterback rating and 2 ints against Cincy in the terrible weather.

3. In the season finale which was a meaningless game and he had no business taking hits... in terrible weather.

Are these the games you are referring to as Ben having been handcuffed in?

Despite throwing more than 30 times every time Ben plays he put up exactly ONE game with more than 30 points... and it was a loss.

Throw more! Ben is too "elite" for winning!

PhantomJB93
01-02-2013, 12:12 AM
I think people are quick to forget just how bad Arians was. Our offense was horrible down the stretch, for sure, but I really think it was more due to poor execution. There were very few times we called a play that I just wanted to gouge my eyes out over, whereas with Arians it was always the situational playcalling itself that always seemed horrible.

Before the injuries flooded in, Haley's gameplan was working great (I think people are quick to forget we lost to the Raiders and Titans mostly due to poor defense), his situational playcalling was much better, his run plays were designed much better, I remember utilizing Will Johnson successfully as a blocker much more in the first half of the season...it's not time to run him out of town yet. Just because Arians is having success with a completely different team in a different role (IDK how much of the offensive plays he's actually called since he was a HC for most of the year) with completely different weapons and strengths doesn't mean he wasn't awful here.

teegre
01-02-2013, 12:19 AM
I think people are quick to forget just how bad Arians was. Our offense was horrible down the stretch, for sure, but I really think it was more due to poor execution. There were very few times we called a play that I just wanted to gouge my eyes out over, whereas with Arians it was always the situational playcalling itself that always seemed horrible.

Before the injuries flooded in, Haley's gameplan was working great (I think people are quick to forget we lost to the Raiders and Titans mostly due to poor defense), his situational playcalling was much better, his run plays were designed much better...it's not time to run him out of town yet. Just because Arians is having success with a completely different team in a different role with completely different weapons and strengths doesn't mean he wasn't awful here.

Spot on.

Speaking in particular about the Raidahs and the Titans games, in both games... there was a chance for the game to be sealed, by completing a short pass to Heath Miller. In both games, the ball fell to the ground... and the other team drove down for the winning FG.

Furthermore, in the Titans game, Keenan Lewis dropped an INT that would have sealed the victory/iced the game.

And, in the Raidahs game, three players fumbled, which gave the Raidahs easy scores/swung momentum in the Raidahs' direction.

The difference between winning & losing is so, so slim.

Lastly, I think that you or I could be the OC for Andrew Luck... and look like a genius:
"Luck... uh... throw it... and convert the third down... and then win the game. Thanks. What? Yes, that is the entire offensive gameplan. You ARE the gameplan."

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 01:10 AM
So let's see. Eli spins around, escapes the rush, throws up a prayer, and the ball sticks to the helmet of his TE. An unbelievable catch! He then throws the game-winning TD to a dominant WR, Plaxico Burress, Who easily beats his man and is wide open for the winning score(You know, the guy Ben didn't have to throw to anymore). Oh, and Eli's front four dominate Tom Brady "The Best QB Ever", and the Giants win the game.

In Ben's super bowl against the Cardinals, He was the entire offense for the Steelers. Making escape after escape and moving the chains. His#1 ranked defense giving up a 2 score lead again, only to have Ben lead his team 90 yards(All Ben) for the game winning TD. He had to make the winning throw twice because his receiver dropped the first perfect pass that would have won the game. He had to throw a second perfect game-winning TD pass to a receiver that was covered like tighty whities on a fat ass.Then he had to watch his WR win MVP of the super bowl when everybody that saw the game knows Ben Roethlisberger won that game for the Steelers.

Anything you'd like to add?

I am going to let you finish... but Kurt Warner had one of the greatest superbowl performances of all time!

Warner threw for 377 yds and 3 tds against the best defense in the NFL (the Steelers 2nd best defense of all time only to the 76 Steelers).

Roethlisberger threw for 256 yards and 1 td against the 28th scoring defense in the NFL.

Warner put up 23 points against a team that had allowed 13.9 that season.

Roethlisberger put up 20 points against a team that had allowed 26.7 that season.

If Harrison does not intercept that pass on 1st and goal from the 2 and score the game-deciding td the Steelers lose that game. He should have been MVP.

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 01:17 AM
Lastly, I think that you or I could be the OC for Andrew Luck... and look like a genius:
"Luck... uh... throw it... and convert the third down... and then win the game. Thanks. What? Yes, that is the entire offensive gameplan. You ARE the gameplan."

Another person reiterating my point: the quarterback makes the offense go not the coordinator. The quarterback is ultimately responsible for the offense.

RG III's offense put up 27 points per game in 2012. Roethlisberger will never do that. Roethlisberger's offenses have put up more than 23 points per game once in his 9 seasons. Every year it is 20-23 ppg. Nothing will change that.

Getting into shootouts with a quarterback who can not consistently score more than 23 per game is a very very very bad idea.

The Steelers know that even if you don't.

ZoneBlitzer
01-02-2013, 02:33 AM
I think people are quick to forget just how bad Arians was. Our offense was horrible down the stretch, for sure, but I really think it was more due to poor execution. There were very few times we called a play that I just wanted to gouge my eyes out over, whereas with Arians it was always the situational playcalling itself that always seemed horrible.



This begs the question of was there one common denominator involved? ie - Tomlin?

Arians at his worst was known for run, run, pass, punt. He was also was sickly infatuated with the 2.5 yard per play bubble screen. I've seen Haley call the same garbage. Is Tomlin vetoing? Is he saying no, let's pound it again up the gut? Lets do a bubble screen? The steelers have spent two years or so setting up the bubble screen so that they could fake it and throw to Heath, one of the best play calls of the year IMO.

I'll say this though. The Steelers last championship season featured the best complimentary and situational football that the team has ever played.

jiminpa
01-02-2013, 03:57 AM
I am going to let you finish... but Kurt Warner had one of the greatest superbowl performances of all time!

Warner threw for 377 yds and 3 tds against the best defense in the NFL (the Steelers 2nd best defense of all time only to the 76 Steelers).

Roethlisberger threw for 256 yards and 1 td against the 28th scoring defense in the NFL.

Warner put up 23 points against a team that had allowed 13.9 that season.

Roethlisberger put up 20 points against a team that had allowed 26.7 that season.

If Harrison does not intercept that pass on 1st and goal from the 2 and score the game-deciding td the Steelers lose that game. He should have been MVP.Wow! an opinion from someone who actually saw the game.

BowCatShot
01-02-2013, 07:30 AM
This begs the question of was there one common denominator involved? ie - Tomlin?

Arians at his worst was known for run, run, pass, punt. He was also was sickly infatuated with the 2.5 yard per play bubble screen. I've seen Haley call the same garbage. Is Tomlin vetoing? Is he saying no, let's pound it again up the gut? Lets do a bubble screen? The steelers have spent two years or so setting up the bubble screen so that they could fake it and throw to Heath, one of the best play calls of the year IMO.

I'll say this though. The Steelers last championship season featured the best complimentary and situational football that the team has ever played.

I think you're on to something here. I believe that more important than knowhow or ability are personal relationships. Specifically the relationships between Tomlin, Ariens, and Ben as well as that between Tomlin and the Rooneys have more to do with success than anything else.

Ricco Suavez
01-02-2013, 09:49 AM
It is now fact, I can't debate anymore. The defense has won every game and Ben has just been along for the ride, I mean its a shame that Kordell could not have been around to reap these benefits. I would of Loved to have seen O'Donnell have some of that pie too. Can you Imagine if Malone had a defense like this behemoth we have now. I was so wrong is thinking that QB had anything to do with the team wins ,just the losses, I feel so stupid, I now see the light. Thank you O' Wise ones, your words and reason are without peer.

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-02-2013, 10:08 AM
I think Arians is a good OC, not a great one. I was never one of the "haters" although i was happy to see him go and i think Haley (as long as he's not offered a head-coaching job somewhere else which is entirely possible) will work out better in the long run than Bruce did. Arian's just wasn't a good fit here.

Funny now to see Arians as one of the hottest, some say the hottest, HC'ing candidates out there right now.

This is how I feel. Will be happy to see Arians be an alleged HC candidate, as he never was while in Pittsburgh. He can be the next Mike Mularkey, Dick Jauron, Eric Mangini, Josh McDaniels, etc.

NSMaster56
01-02-2013, 10:21 AM
Roethlisberger will never do that. Roethlisberger's offenses have put up more than 23 points per game once in his 9 seasons. Every year it is 20-23 ppg. Nothing will change that.

Technically, it's not that they 'can't' do it.

As we all know, the Steelers failure to advance as an offense stems from a lackluster OL. However, a large part is also because they haven't fully committed to a 'spread' or 'west coast' attack (they're mixing new and old school passing schemes for average results).

If they went all-in and ran a DET, NE, NO, etc. style offense, with 4/5 Wide and/or 2 TE's every down, they probably could rack up 27+ PPG.

This is not to say it would be a good idea to do so, just saying.

NSMaster56
01-02-2013, 10:26 AM
It is now fact, I can't debate anymore. The defense has won every game and Ben has just been along for the ride, I mean its a shame that Kordell could not have been around to reap these benefits. I would of Loved to have seen O'Donnell have some of that pie too. Can you Imagine if Malone had a defense like this behemoth we have now. I was so wrong is thinking that QB had anything to do with the team wins ,just the losses, I feel so stupid, I now see the light. Thank you O' Wise ones, your words and reason are without peer.

Kordell made 2 AFC Championships and Neil made a SB (and how many playoff games did Mike !@#$%^& Tomczak make?!), so...

They certainly did reap some benefits.

Ben's clearly the guy who got the Steelers over the top (TWICE---thank God!), but he has benefitted from a solid situation. It's not unfair to say as such.

That said and as far as comparisons go: he's more Troy Aikman than Joe Flacco.

Ricco Suavez
01-02-2013, 10:34 AM
Kordell made 2 AFC Championships and Neil made a SB (and how many playoff games did Mike !@#$%^& Tomczak make?!), so...

They certainly did reap some benefits.

Ben's clearly the guy who got the Steelers over the top (TWICE---thank God!), but he has benefitted from a solid situation. It's not unfair to say as such.

That said and as far as comparisons go: he's more Troy Aikman than Joe Flacco.

Hey I agree, O'Donnell was another QB that has taken a lot of grief over the years but when he was at the helm he had one of the best years under center than many. Cowher let the team loose that year and it reaped benefits.

NSMaster56
01-02-2013, 10:53 AM
Hey I agree, O'Donnell was another QB that has taken a lot of grief over the years but when he was at the helm he had one of the best years under center than many. Cowher let the team loose that year and it reaped benefits.

Not to sound 'anti-Tomlin', but man alive do I miss Cowher!

No way in hell would he have let this squad, as talented as it is, lose more than 6 games.

For twelve years he was shackled to QBs like Neil, Kordell, Tomczak and Maddox and he still managed to put up 115 wins and make the playoffs eight times.

As good as Tomlin has been, it's crazy to think what SGT Slaughter could have done the last six years with Ben under center and the rest of this bunch.

[/Cowher circle jerk]

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-02-2013, 10:54 AM
Hey I agree, O'Donnell was another QB that has taken a lot of grief over the years but when he was at the helm he had one of the best years under center than many. Cowher let the team loose that year and it reaped benefits.

Why the need to blame coaches for single moments in football?

If O Donnell and Andre Hastings are on the same page and that INT isnt thrown, then "cowher doesnt let them lose that game". Cowher hate is a joke.

O Donnell had some great seasons, so to did Stewart. Dan Marino had some great seasons, but nobody blames his coaches for not getting him a Super Bowl.

Back to the thread. The Colts went from a playoff team in 2010 with Manning, to a bust in 2011 with Curtis Painter and now some are heralding Arians for getting them back to the playoffs with Andrew Luck?? The Colts actually got better in 2 seasons with one of the best QB's in the last 10 years...go figure.

Ricco Suavez
01-02-2013, 11:20 AM
Why the need to blame coaches for single moments in football?

If O Donnell and Andre Hastings are on the same page and that INT isnt thrown, then "cowher doesnt let them lose that game". Cowher hate is a joke.

O Donnell had some great seasons, so to did Stewart. Dan Marino had some great seasons, but nobody blames his coaches for not getting him a Super Bowl.

Back to the thread. The Colts went from a playoff team in 2010 with Manning, to a bust in 2011 with Curtis Painter and now some are heralding Arians for getting them back to the playoffs with Andrew Luck?? The Colts actually got better in 2 seasons with one of the best QB's in the last 10 years...go figure.

I think you misinterpreted , when I said Cowher let the team loose, I did not mean lose. I simply stated that Cowher got away from his style of play that year and let O'Donnell open up the offense with more of a passing game and not the run as much. I loved Cowher, but i know he had some pretty good stinkers while he was here, and I wonder if he saw how the league was changing and if that played as much in him not returning to the game as anything.

stiller39
01-02-2013, 11:30 AM
Whisenhut is available!

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-02-2013, 12:17 PM
I think you misinterpreted , when I said Cowher let the team loose, I did not mean lose. I simply stated that Cowher got away from his style of play that year and let O'Donnell open up the offense with more of a passing game and not the run as much. I loved Cowher, but i know he had some pretty good stinkers while he was here, and I wonder if he saw how the league was changing and if that played as much in him not returning to the game as anything.

OK, I think Cowher let Gailey run the offense without too much interference during his tenure. Steelers still ran the ball with Bam Morris and Erric Peagram that SB season, it wasnt all 5 wide and throw it around.

I still love all this Arians credit for Andrew Luck's success with the Colts. Pagano had a solid core of talent there already on a playoff team from 2010. He adds free agents like Cory Redding, Vontae Davis, Zibikowski, Mike McGlynn, Samson Setele and drafts Andrew Luck, Dewayne Allen and Coby Fleener, etc..........good bunch of players.

Andrew Luck is the difference between 11-5 and a 3-13 Colts team. make no mistake about it.

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 12:26 PM
OK, I think Cowher let Gailey run the offense without too much interference during his tenure. Steelers still ran the ball with Bam Morris and Erric Peagram that SB season, it wasnt all 5 wide and throw it around.

I still love all this Arians credit for Andrew Luck's success with the Colts. Pagano had a solid core of talent there already on a playoff team from 2010. He adds free agents like Cory Redding, Vontae Davis, Zibikowski, Mike McGlynn, Samson Setele and drafts Andrew Luck, Dewayne Allen and Coby Fleener, etc..........good bunch of players.

Andrew Luck is the difference between 11-5 and a 3-13 Colts team. make no mistake about it.

yes. as much as I'm hating QBs and crediting OCs, Luck is the difference maker. As is RGIII, as is Russel Wilson.

This is why I said I was done ranting, but in fact, have plenty left for Ben's sake :chuckle:

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-02-2013, 12:42 PM
yes. as much as I'm hating QBs and crediting OCs, Luck is the difference maker. As is RGIII, as is Russel Wilson.

This is why I said I was done ranting, but in fact, have plenty left for Ben's sake :chuckle:

I dont get the Ben hate on the board. I have always thought that if the guy was a student of the game like Peyton, Eli, Brady, Matt Ryan and I think Andrew Luck.....he could be so much better.

Ben prefers to play that John Wayne/Brett Favre persona and sling it around, almost hoping for the play to break down, rather than be ruthlessly efficient at reading defenses and progressions.

I think the shoulder/clavicle injury derailed his season. I think again the O line injuries hurt the offensive continuity and the Mendenhall drama hurt us with not having anything but plodders like Redman and Dwyer at the RB position.

Haley's offense was starting to really roll in midseason and then it got shot shot by injuries. The offense is only as good as Ben is and when he was making the quick reads to Heath and the defenses had to honor the run...he was clicking.

I look forward to next year with hopefully a healthy Gilbert, Pouncey, Colon, DeCastro and Adams up front. They can move the pile and keep Ben clean hopefully. Need to get younger at Safety, OLB, ILB.

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 12:52 PM
I dont get the Ben hate on the board. I have always thought that if the guy was a student of the game like Peyton, Eli, Brady, Matt Ryan and I think Andrew Luck.....he could be so much better.

Ben prefers to play that John Wayne/Brett Favre persona and sling it around, almost hoping for the play to break down, rather than be ruthlessly efficient at reading defenses and progressions.

I think the shoulder/clavicle injury derailed his season. I think again the O line injuries hurt the offensive continuity and the Mendenhall drama hurt us with not having anything but plodders like Redman and Dwyer at the RB position.

Haley's offense was starting to really roll in midseason and then it got shot shot by injuries. The offense is only as good as Ben is and when he was making the quick reads to Heath and the defenses had to honor the run...he was clicking.

I look forward to next year with hopefully a healthy Gilbert, Pouncey, Colon, DeCastro and Adams up front. They can move the pile and keep Ben clean hopefully. Need to get younger at Safety, OLB, ILB.

You're right - I do give Ben the benefit of the doubt, the injury obviously rattled his decision making process that seemed to have been improving

If he combined his already-proven toughness and added the "chess-matchness" to his game, he actually could be THE BEST QB EVER, any decade - period. He really has everything you could absolutely want - everything. He needs to harness it. Can you imagine the MVP-like Ben in the first half consistently over the span of the next few years? Unstoppable.

Mark my words: If he makes it work with Haley - he'll at least win 1 more, and will more than likely get his 4th. Can you imagine Manning having Ben's tenacity? It would be nothing the football world has ever witnessed.

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-02-2013, 12:59 PM
You're right - I do give Ben the benefit of the doubt, the injury obviously rattled his decision making process that seemed to have been improving

If he combined his already-proven toughness and added the "chess-matchness" to his game, he actually could be THE BEST QB EVER, any decade - period. He really has everything you could absolutely want - everything. He needs to harness it. Can you imagine the MVP-like Ben in the first half consistently over the span of the next few years? Unstoppable.

Mark my words: If he makes it work with Haley - he'll at least win 1 more, and will more than likely get his 4th. Can you imagine Manning having Ben's tenacity? It would be nothing the football world has ever witnessed.

Yes, but I think Ben wants to call his own plays and run the offense the way he feels works best for him....all the while not really thinking he needs to be a "student of the game".

If Ben accepts that Haley wants to help him get better and Ben believes that he CAN get better, things will be dangerous. You see how Aaron Rodgers gets ridden by Tom Clements and accepts it as part of improving??? That attitude makes you your best.

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 01:03 PM
Kordell made 2 AFC Championships and Neil made a SB (and how many playoff games did Mike !@#$%^& Tomczak make?!), so...

They certainly did reap some benefits.

Ben's clearly the guy who got the Steelers over the top (TWICE---thank God!), but he has benefitted from a solid situation. It's not unfair to say as such.

That said and as far as comparisons go: he's more Troy Aikman than Joe Flacco.

I made the comparison to Aikman as well. Aikman was much more efficient and precise though with a lot less improvisation. He also had the best offensive line ever.

Roethlisberger has a lot more big play potential than Aikman but I think the idea was that he be that type of player.

Mendenhall would have killed it behind an OL like that. I think the OL is on the right track. I expect good things next year in that dept.

You're right - I do give Ben the benefit of the doubt, the injury obviously rattled his decision making process that seemed to have been improving

Mark my words: If he makes it work with Haley - he'll at least win 1 more, and will more than likely get his 4th. Can you imagine Manning having Ben's tenacity? It would be nothing the football world has ever witnessed.

Ha! I think you are getting a little carried away but I agree that good things will happen if Ben works with Haley, and swallows his pride at having lost Arians.

The Steelers will be eyeing RBs this draft. Hopefully they grab another good one- just not too early!

Ricco Suavez
01-02-2013, 01:17 PM
I think Luck could be in that group of Special Players such as Peyton, Brady, Marino, but lets not crown him after one season. But to my eyes and as a rookie he is special, only solidifies the opinion of nearly every NFL guru before the draft. RGII has put up numbers like no rookie before and consistent too, yet, he has played only one season, lets see how he does in the years to come. i have heard only one or two detractors for RGIII and they both say the same thing and that is the system has been limited and RGIII does not go through his progressions like he should, the Redskin running game (and RGII is part of that ) is one of the best in the league. Example when we played them we stopped the run and while flashes of his game were present he did not do near as much as in other games. Wilson, well what can you say, I wanted the Steelers to draft him if possible,(size be damned, I wanted Flutie too) I had already heard how smart this kid was and I had watched him enough top like what I saw. But lets see what their future has in store.

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 01:21 PM
I made the comparison to Aikman as well. Aikman was much more efficient and precise though with a lot less improvisation. He also had the best offensive line ever.

Roethlisberger has a lot more big play potential than Aikman but I think the idea was that he be that type of player.

Mendenhall would have killed it behind an OL like that. I think the OL is on the right track. I expect good things next year in that dept.



Ha! I think you are getting a little carried away but I agree that good things will happen if Ben works with Haley, and swallows his pride at having lost Arians.

The Steelers will be eyeing RBs this draft. Hopefully they grab another good one- just not too early!

Oh - I'm getting carried away! I just believe Ben needs to challenge himself and accept the line of thinking that he has shown flashes of legendary brilliance on top of his uniqueness (that I believe already has earned him a HOF trip)

Ben + dissecting defenses = it's officially over for the rest of the league. He would be the first QB ever to combine the John Wayne with the Smarts. He is the only one I've ever witnessed doing both in one game. He has the capability to chameleon anything in any given situation. The other guys - they can absolutely eat defenses for breakfast by outsmarting them, but, when the defenses get to them, play over. Ben has the chance to have both. This is why I am so passionate about him evolving.

EDIT: I imagine Ben on the sideline with each and every weapon, dissecting the play, coaching everyone up. He can do it. He doesn't have to rely on John Wayne alone. Imagine a well-oiled scoring machine, and when he has to its - "Vintage Roethlisberger- that's how he made a name for himself" - but not rely so heavily on it.

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 01:23 PM
I think Luck could be in that group of Special Players such as Peyton, Brady, Marino, but lets not crown him after one season. But to my eyes and as a rookie he is special, only solidifies the opinion of nearly every NFL guru before the draft. RGII has put up numbers like no rookie before and consistent too, yet, he has played only one season, lets see how he does in the years to come. i have heard only one or two detractors for RGIII and they both say the same thing and that is the system has been limited and RGIII does not go through his progressions like he should, the Redskin running game (and RGII is part of that ) is one of the best in the league. Example when we played them we stopped the run and while flashes of his game were present he did not do near as much as in other games. Wilson, well what can you say, I wanted the Steelers to draft him if possible,(size be damned, I wanted Flutie too) I had already heard how smart this kid was and I had watched him enough top like what I saw. But lets see what their future has in store.

Yeah I remember someone was talking up Wilson. Good call! Too bad the front office doesn't listen to us fans.:chuckle: I remember someone promoting Kirk Cousins as well. He has been good in limited action.

RGIII is playing within a system and people say that like its a bad thing. Isn't it hard enough to win games without trying to win a certain way? Good for RGIII to do what is necessary to win. When he becomes more experienced they might open the offense for him but I don't think that is necessary if it works.

Luck to me is overhyped. He put up a lot of yards because he threw an unbelievable amount of times. Still, he did place some REALLY nice throws and he is getting the bad ones out of the way early. Nothing is going to give the kid experience like throwing the ball 600 times.

Ricco Suavez
01-02-2013, 01:29 PM
I was on board with Cousins also just did not see him going as high. As far as RGIII system its more of a matter of will the Redskins be able to continue to run at a high level, When or if their running game is stymied then he will be put into more situations that where his reads become more difficult. Either way great seasons to start their NFL careers, barring injury I hope to see what their future holds. Just glad two of them are in the NFC.

LVSteelersfan
01-02-2013, 06:09 PM
I will never forgive Airhead for not using Heath Miller. Airhead is gone and Miller had a career year. And our fullback looked pretty darn good when the Oline was clicking as well. Two things that would never happen with Airhead. Sorry, but I don't think he is that great of an offensive mind.

LVSteelersfan
01-02-2013, 06:24 PM
Arians will end up in San Diego or Arizona or some place like that and stink the joint up. Can't wait. No way he is head coaching material despite what happened this year. The players were inspired because of Pagano, not because of Airhead.

lloydwoodson
01-03-2013, 12:21 AM
I was on board with Cousins also just did not see him going as high. As far as RGIII system its more of a matter of will the Redskins be able to continue to run at a high level, When or if their running game is stymied then he will be put into more situations that where his reads become more difficult. Either way great seasons to start their NFL careers, barring injury I hope to see what their future holds. Just glad two of them are in the NFC.

I agree that RGIII is going to have to run less in the future. He is alrea. Hasn't dy hobbling around this year at the end of his rookie season when he is young and fresh.

Look at the injuries Vick has sustained while running- not pretty.

I think RGIII will do well . Hasn't complained he is running too much like McNabb did.

I think RGIII throws a nice ball and is a good guy who his teammates already look up to. RGIII is already the leader of that team. Very impressive.

Washington is going to be in the playoffs for years to come. Giants need to get it together or they are in trouble.