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View Full Version : The scoring problem has nothing to do with the passing game


Gnutella
01-02-2013, 04:00 AM
Total non-passing TDs by NFL team (2012)

33 - New England
28 - Washington
25 - Carolina
24 - Houston
22 - Baltimore
22 - Seattle
21 - Chicago
21 - Minnesota
21 - New York Giants
21 - San Francisco
20 - Denver
19 - Tennessee
18 - Miami
17 - Detroit
17 - Indianapolis
17 - New York Jets
17 - Tampa Bay
16 - Buffalo
15 - Cincinnati
15 - Cleveland
15 - New Orleans
14 - Arizona
14 - Atlanta
13 - Green Bay
13 - San Diego
12 - Dallas
11 - Philadelphia
10 - Kansas City
10 - St. Louis
9 - Pittsburgh
6 - Jacksonville
4 - Oakland


This season, the Steelers ranked 22nd in the NFL in TDs scored, with 36. Of those 36, 27 were scored by passing, eight by running, one by defense, and zero by special teams. Only four teams had fewer TD runs. Only three teams had fewer defensive TDs. No team had fewer special teams TDs. And as you can see on the chart above, only two teams had fewer non-passing TDs overall.

Conversely, only seven teams had more TD passes than the Steelers this season -- and this is with Ben Roethlisberger missing three-and-a-half games, and the backup QBs combining for one lonely TD pass.

As I've illustrated elsewhere, Roethlisberger was on pace to throw 33 TD passes in 16 games at the rate he was throwing them when he played.* If the Steelers had 33 TD passes, they'd rank 5th in the NFL in that regard, but still only 15th in total TDs. If they could rank in the top five in TD passes but still only be midpack in total TDs, then this proves that the scoring problem has nothing at all to do with the passing game.

It should also be noted that eight of the top dozen teams on that chart are playoff teams, but only two of the bottom dozen are. For that matter, only four playoff teams have scored fewer than 20 TDs by means other than the pass. In other words, there's a strong correlation between versatility in scoring TDs and the likelihood of making the playoffs.

(*: I am fully aware that playing 16 games could have resulted in fewer than 33 TD passes for Roethlisberger, but it could have just as easily resulted in more than 33 TD passes, for all we know.)

kan_t
01-02-2013, 04:12 AM
Thanks. I think it's nonsense that Ben doesn't buy in Haley's system. The problem is that the running game is non-existence. Even the Saints and the Packers have better running game than the Steelers and the Steelers still insist to have a 'balance offense' which to me is stupid.

pete74
01-02-2013, 04:18 AM
Good read. I definitely makes sense. I don't think anyone can deny that Ben was tearing it up before his injury. We need to run the ball better and find a way to keep Ben in for a 16 game season because he seems to get hurt and miss time every single year. I can't remember the last time he played 16 games.

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 04:35 AM
25 of 33 of New England's non-passing tds were from rushing touchdowns.

Brady rushed for 4 himself. He threw for 38. Brady's offense = 38 (Tom) + 25 (Rush) = 63 tds from the offense.

Roethlisberger's offense = 26 (Ben) + 1 (Batch) + 7 (Rush) = 34 tds from the offense.

Wow. Tom Brady threw for more tds than Pittsburgh's offense could put up total. Kind of embarassing.

Don't pretend that New England's passing offense didn't set up their run to punch it in from a couple yards out. That would be dishonest. NE was 4th in passing last year and 2nd this year. Pittsburgh was 10th last year and 14th this year. Not so good from a top 5 qb.

Stevan Ridley is the reason the Pats have a rushing attack again. They went from 20th to 7th on the strength of his running.

Last year when the Pats were 20th in rushing they were still 3rd in rushing tds with 18. Why? BECAUSE THEIR PASSING GAME PUTS THE BALL ON THE GOAL LINE.

Pats offense: 2 1st rd picks 0 at skill positions 36 ppg

Steelers offense: 5 1st rd picks 3 at skill positions 21 ppg

STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR BEN'S INEPT OFFENSE!!!!!

Gnutella
01-02-2013, 05:09 AM
The Patriots also averaged half a YPC more (4.2) than the Steelers did (3.7). In fact, only three teams had fewer YPC than the Steelers did. Furthermore, the Steelers ranked 14th in the NFL in net passing yards, and the difference between them and the 10th-ranked team was a mere 196 yards. And this is all in spite of Roethlisberger missing three games. Moving the ball through the air was not a problem for the Steelers when he played. In fact, at the time of his injury, the Steelers ranked 10th in passing yards. The running game simply was not good this season, and is the main reason why the offense didn't score more.

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 05:46 AM
The Patriots also averaged half a YPC more (4.2) than the Steelers did (3.7). In fact, only three teams had fewer YPC than the Steelers did. Furthermore, the Steelers ranked 14th in the NFL in net passing yards, and the difference between them and the 10th-ranked team was a mere 196 yards. And this is all in spite of Roethlisberger missing three games. Moving the ball through the air was not a problem for the Steelers when he played. In fact, at the time of his injury, the Steelers ranked 10th in passing yards. The running game simply was not good this season, and is the main reason why the offense didn't score more.

If Tomlin had not decided that the Steelers were going to change philosophies when

he came to town; if he had not drafted "weapons" in place of linemen in a shift from

power football to a NE/Indy copycat offense centered around Ben; if the Steelers had

addressed the elephant in the room which was a deteriorated OLine; if the Steelers

had drafted more than 2 OL in 5 years on day 1; if the Steelers had decided early they

werent ok with Ben throwing 500 times a year and had drafted some linemen... then

we would not be having this conversation... the Steelers would be running the ball

not this Sunday but next with home-field advantage.

plenewken
01-02-2013, 05:51 AM
The Patriots also averaged half a YPC more (4.2) than the Steelers did (3.7). In fact, only three teams had fewer YPC than the Steelers did. Furthermore, the Steelers ranked 14th in the NFL in net passing yards, and the difference between them and the 10th-ranked team was a mere 196 yards. And this is all in spite of Roethlisberger missing three games. Moving the ball through the air was not a problem for the Steelers when he played. In fact, at the time of his injury, the Steelers ranked 10th in passing yards. The running game simply was not good this season, and is the main reason why the offense didn't score more.

Steelers passing ranking:
2012: 14th in yds 8th in receiving TDs
2011: 10th 13th in TDs
2010: 14th 21th in TDs
2009: 9th 7th in TDs
2008: 17th 18th in TDs

Steelers running ranking:
2012: 26th in yds 27th in TDs
2011: 14th 15th in TDs
2010: 11th 8th in TDs
2009: 19th 20th in TDs
2008: 23th 11th in TDs

Steelers total pts scored
2012: 22th
2011: 21th
2010: 12th
2009: 12th
2008: 20th

Looks to me that regardless if Ben plays a full season or not, the Steelers' passing offense is still average.
Overall, passing or rushing doesn't matter, the Steelers haven't been able to put points on the board for many years.

WVABE
01-02-2013, 06:23 AM
And in the end its all still a team effort.

Gnutella
01-02-2013, 06:25 AM
Looks to me that regardless if Ben plays a full season or not, the Steelers' passing offense is still average.

They were in the top quartile for TD passes this season. That's not "average."

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 06:38 AM
They were in the top quartile for TD passes this season. That's not "average."

I point out that Brady threw for more tds than the Steelers offense got collectively. Unphased Gnutella proceeds to champion Ben based on his individual statistics.

A quarterback is responsible for his team's offensive production. Period.

Look at RGIII this year. He was 20th in passing yards and 20th in passing tds. His offense was the 4th best scoring offense in the league and his team ended 10-6! That was an amazing season. He did a helluva job.

I could care less about his individual statistics. He did what was required to effectively operate an offense and score points.

He was helped by a solid running game from Morris and a decent defense. Every qb needs that. Every qb should have that. It was moronic for Tomlin and Arians to neglect the running game for as long as they did.

The_Joker
01-02-2013, 06:40 AM
I put a lot of the blame on the running game. We do NOT have a franchise HB right now, period.

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 07:02 AM
I put a lot of the blame on the running game. We do NOT have a franchise HB right now, period.

What about Mendenhall? Career 4.1 ypc behind one of the worst lines in football over the last several years. Not too shabby. Jerome Bettis had a career average of 3.9.

I say bring Mendenhall back. Chargers let Turner go to Atlanta and burned a 1st rounder on Ryan Matthews- how is that working out for them?

Why let a perfectly good and complete back walk away when you could resign him cheap?

How many teams are looking for a 4 year veteran coming off a knee injury who had a 3.5 ypc last year? How much could it possibly cost to resign him?

Mendenhall has given good service to the Steelers. 2 1000 yard seasons. But you're all so sensitive over his twitter posts you want to see him gone.

"Get rid of Mendenhall! Draft a rb in the first round! There is a Kijana Carter, Rashan Salaam, Chris Perry, Ron Dayne, Tim Worley out there waiting for us!"

TRH
01-02-2013, 08:14 AM
Mendenhall isn't even among the "2nd tier" group of backs in this league. That tells you something. Regardless, he won't be back.

The problems are many. Excessive injuries. Poor offensive line play that doesn't open holes or block very well. Dumb playcalling. None of the backs being constently good. Tons and tons of dropped passes. And so on. SO much more here to blame than our QB.

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 08:35 AM
good points

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 08:37 AM
You know, it has nothing to do with anything about the offense or the coaches.

It is the TRAINING STAFF'S FAULT.

No stretching, no commitment to hamstrings, more fudge rounds. The plan is complete. HE, HE, HEEEEEEEE
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_nSU6L_WlSkU/S8ZVgE-iXQI/AAAAAAAACAM/7hQsWENP060/s1600/dick9we3.jpg

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 08:37 AM
Mendenhall isn't even among the "2nd tier" group of backs in this league. That tells you something. Regardless, he won't be back.

The problems are many. Excessive injuries. Poor offensive line play that doesn't open holes or block very well. Dumb playcalling. None of the backs being constently good. Tons and tons of dropped passes. And so on. SO much more here to blame than our QB.

Mendenhall's best season would have been good enough for 7th in the NFL this year.

Mendenhall has been part of a pass-first offense that lacked a true fullback his entire career. Still has a couple thousand yard seasons and a 4.1 ypc. He is also good at picking up blitzes and catching the ball. I would grade him a "B" and look elsewhere to improve the team. I hope he is back healthy.

What is this "2nd tier" garbage and whose words are you speaking? Clearly you are regurgitating what someone else said.

"Yeah! Let's get rid of him over his tweets! If everyone else hates him I hate him too!"

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 08:41 AM
Mendenhall's best season would have been good enough for 7th in the NFL this year.

Mendenhall has been part of a pass-first offense that lacked a true fullback his entire career. Still has a couple thousand yard seasons and a 4.1 ypc. He is also good at picking up blitzes and catching the ball. I would grade him a "B" and look elsewhere to improve the team. I hope he is back healthy.

What is this "2nd tier" garbage and whose words are you speaking? Clearly you are regurgitating what someone else said.

"Yeah! Let's get rid of him over his tweets! If everyone else hates him I hate him too!"

I've been outspoken about his perceived attitude, and while I realize he's had a couple of great seasons - to me, he's equally had some hesitation and commitment issues - hence, doghouse twice in the time he's been here. For a first rounder, I'm just guessing here, the Steelers expected at least more commitment and less lack of focus. I just think we have a 50/50 chance of getting at least the same production out of someone else that is worth taking the risk of dropping some of the personality issues. Just my two cents.

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 08:53 AM
I've been outspoken about his perceived attitude, and while I realize he's had a couple of great seasons - to me, he's equally had some hesitation and commitment issues - hence, doghouse twice in the time he's been here. For a first rounder, I'm just guessing here, the Steelers expected at least more commitment and less lack of focus. I just think we have a 50/50 chance of getting at least the same production out of someone else that is worth taking the risk of dropping some of the personality issues. Just my two cents.

Honestly I think Ray Lewis broke more than his shoulder blade. Mendenhall is hesitant and doesn't run with the determination of Redman. He still is talented enough to make plays. I don't think he is a great back but I think RB is a position that should be found later in drafts.

Mendenhall's personality issues involve his twitter account. I think people are blowing that way out of proportion. I could care less what he thinks. Tomlin is the one with a problem with Mendy. If Tomlin doesn't have a problem with him and he comes back I don't know why anyone else would.

There are a TON of bust RBs out there- Mendenhall isn't one of them. There is no guarantee that a RB will perform. Drafting one better than Mendenhall will be difficult and the pick is better spent elsewhere.

If I was Mendenhall I would be pissed. He is making less than 1M per year, hasn't had a leadblocking fullback, and gets nothing but crap in the media.

The NFL is full of guys with assaults, DUIs and drug possessions and fans hate Mendy because of his tweets.... :banging:

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 09:15 AM
Honestly I think Ray Lewis broke more than his shoulder blade. Mendenhall is hesitant and doesn't run with the determination of Redman. He still is talented enough to make plays. I don't think he is a great back but I think RB is a position that should be found later in drafts.

Mendenhall's personality issues involve his twitter account. I think people are blowing that way out of proportion. I could care less what he thinks. Tomlin is the one with a problem with Mendy. If Tomlin doesn't have a problem with him and he comes back I don't know why anyone else would.

There are a TON of bust RBs out there- Mendenhall isn't one of them. There is no guarantee that a RB will perform. Drafting one better than Mendenhall will be difficult and the pick is better spent elsewhere.

If I was Mendenhall I would be pissed. He is making less than 1M per year, hasn't had a leadblocking fullback, and gets nothing but crap in the media.

The NFL is full of guys with assaults, DUIs and drug possessions and fans hate Mendy because of his tweets.... :banging:

I agree with you - its a catch 22 for me, which is why I said I think its a 50/50 toss up getting rid of Mendy and putting hope on an new unknown. I absolutely would not go high on a RB this draft - and I admit, I don't know enough of what's out there over the next couple of drafts to even truly speak about considering it next season or the season after. This is a bigger problem than most think - we absolutely need someone who can step up quick and take the pressure off Ben - we MIGHT have 5-6 seasons left with him - my guess is 3 to 4. I could be wrong - but some things are looking disheartening and in my own selfish viewpoint - I think becoming a father might have taken some of his desire out of it - anyways, back to RB

I wouldn't have a problem with the tweets if he didn't find himself in the doghouse, and hesitant. Everyone is going to have a bad game. And yes, I agree - I think Arians really messed him up on top of the injury and utilized him horribly (basically hardly got to practice during Arians tenure - an effing shame to do that to a 1st round pick)

It was also unfortunate that Mendy's welcome to the NFL moment was such a negative one. It is one thing to get absolutely blown up on a play - it's another to get sidelined so quickly before even having a chance. I'd imagine it takes quite a bit of mental fortitude to fight back from something that viscous, and still have the confidence to go full speed into a bunch of guys that want to annihilate you. I wouldn't be shocked if we kept him, and who knows, maybe this was the final straw that broke Mendy's BS - maybe he like the receivers have been humbled and humiliated enough this season.

We'll see, but we need a constant staple at RB that will take the pressure off

Ricco Suavez
01-02-2013, 09:41 AM
Steelers passing ranking:
2012: 14th in yds 8th in receiving TDs
2011: 10th 13th in TDs
2010: 14th 21th in TDs
2009: 9th 7th in TDs
2008: 17th 18th in TDs

Steelers running ranking:
2012: 26th in yds 27th in TDs
2011: 14th 15th in TDs
2010: 11th 8th in TDs
2009: 19th 20th in TDs
2008: 23th 11th in TDs

Steelers total pts scored
2012: 22th
2011: 21th
2010: 12th
2009: 12th
2008: 20th

Looks to me that regardless if Ben plays a full season or not, the Steelers' passing offense is still average.
Overall, passing or rushing doesn't matter, the Steelers haven't been able to put points on the board for many years.

You could be right, lets see if the running game is working than your QB does not have to pass as much, yet the offense scores more. A fing brilliant concept, why did we not think of it sooner. Oh snap, that what the Steelers did in the 70's I knew I learned that from somewhere.

Hey ya'll keep blaming Ben for the bad offense and keep giving Haley a free ride and the run game too, even the lack of TO created by the defense or the lack of an occasional game breaking ST play, I am sure you will be here next year when he plays good(NOT) yet stay away if he plays bad(once again NOT). I for one quit following game day threads because of the snide remarks even before games started, another sign that you will not even give him a chance. Hate is strong emotion continue to use the force.

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 09:47 AM
I agree with you - its a catch 22 for me, which is why I said I think its a 50/50 toss up getting rid of Mendy and putting hope on an new unknown. I absolutely would not go high on a RB this draft - and I admit, I don't know enough of what's out there over the next couple of drafts to even truly speak about considering it next season or the season after. This is a bigger problem than most think - we absolutely need someone who can step up quick and take the pressure off Ben - we MIGHT have 5-6 seasons left with him - my guess is 3 to 4. I could be wrong - but some things are looking disheartening and in my own selfish viewpoint - I think becoming a father might have taken some of his desire out of it - anyways, back to RB

I wouldn't have a problem with the tweets if he didn't find himself in the doghouse, and hesitant. Everyone is going to have a bad game. And yes, I agree - I think Arians really messed him up on top of the injury and utilized him horribly (basically hardly got to practice during Arians tenure - an effing shame to do that to a 1st round pick)

It was also unfortunate that Mendy's welcome to the NFL moment was such a negative one. It is one thing to get absolutely blown up on a play - it's another to get sidelined so quickly before even having a chance. I'd imagine it takes quite a bit of mental fortitude to fight back from something that viscous, and still have the confidence to go full speed into a bunch of guys that want to annihilate you. I wouldn't be shocked if we kept him, and who knows, maybe this was the final straw that broke Mendy's BS - maybe he like the receivers have been humbled and humiliated enough this season.

We'll see, but we need a constant staple at RB that will take the pressure off

Yeah I agree that another RB should probably be added.

In all honesty if it was my show I'd probably get rid of Dwyer, and Batch and try again.

Dwyer gets gassed and can't handle a load, and Batch is Rainey lite without the return duty.

I would like to see Haley develop Rainey into a 3rd down RB.

Mendenhall can do everything well. I hope he comes back.

Mendenhall is good all around. Redman is good at short yardage. Rainey is a threat to break one long after a catch. Add another RB on the second day in the draft and hope for the best.

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 09:51 AM
You could be right, lets see if the running game is working than your QB does not have to pass as much, yet the offense scores more. A fing brilliant concept, why did we not think of it sooner. Oh snap, that what the Steelers did in the 70's I knew I learned that from somewhere.

Hey ya'll keep blaming Ben for the bad offense and keep giving Haley a free ride and the run game too, even the lack of TO created by the defense or the lack of an occasional game breaking ST play, I am sure you will be here next year when he plays good(NOT) yet stay away if he plays bad(once again NOT). I for one quit following game day threads because of the snide remarks even before games started, another sign that you will not even give him a chance. Hate is strong emotion continue to use the force.

Evil will always triumph because good is dumb.:rofl:
Hate? Neh. Bitching - you bet:chuckle: I demand that he up his game. He is capable of being more. Or - is he? That is why I bitch.

NSMaster56
01-02-2013, 10:03 AM
Great post OP.

You really outline the need for a balanced O and make the case that forcing Big Ben to be the Alpha and Omega of the offense has not netted positive results.

NSMaster56
01-02-2013, 10:05 AM
I put a lot of the blame on the running game. We do NOT have a franchise HB right now, period.

While it's unlikely that he returns, do you think that Mendy could be a solid enough back to compliment FA/developmental player/rookie X next year?

plenewken
01-02-2013, 10:07 AM
You could be right, lets see if the running game is working than your QB does not have to pass as much, yet the offense scores more. A fing brilliant concept, why did we not think of it sooner. Oh snap, that what the Steelers did in the 70's I knew I learned that from somewhere.

Hey ya'll keep blaming Ben for the bad offense and keep giving Haley a free ride and the run game too, even the lack of TO created by the defense or the lack of an occasional game breaking ST play, I am sure you will be here next year when he plays good(NOT) yet stay away if he plays bad(once again NOT). I for one quit following game day threads because of the snide remarks even before games started, another sign that you will not even give him a chance. Hate is strong emotion continue to use the force.

Give me the benefit of the doubt. If our offense scores 415pts and we make the playoffs as AFC North winner, I won't complain.

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 10:13 AM
While it's unlikely that he returns, do you think that Mendy could be a solid enough back to compliment FA/developmental player/rookie X next year?

If focused, hungry Mendy shows up I believe this is doable. He would need to be given a real chance again, and no running by committee stuff - I really thought it was working going into the KC game, but, you need a really healthy full stable to do it. After second glance, and based on what the O-line has said - might want the main back in there consistently. I'd love to see him get a chance with Johnson leading the way - might do wonders - and, certainly not going to be any worse than what we've witnessed - so , why not? I wouldn't be hurt to see Mendy go, and, I really don't like some of the commitment probs I've witnessed - but, this I would think would be his last, real shot or he would be good as gone. No more opportunities left for him.

Would anyone else consider shifting Rainey to more of a Woodhead role? I think he needs to be in there a little longer, rather than just bringing him in and the D will blow him up right away. Need to get a little more creative with him. To me, he should be full time KR. Not PR - not enough field of vision for him to protect himself IMO

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 10:18 AM
You could be right, lets see if the running game is working than your QB does not have to pass as much, yet the offense scores more. A fing brilliant concept, why did we not think of it sooner. Oh snap, that what the Steelers did in the 70's I knew I learned that from somewhere.

Hey ya'll keep blaming Ben for the bad offense and keep giving Haley a free ride and the run game too, even the lack of TO created by the defense or the lack of an occasional game breaking ST play, I am sure you will be here next year when he plays good(NOT) yet stay away if he plays bad(once again NOT). I for one quit following game day threads because of the snide remarks even before games started, another sign that you will not even give him a chance. Hate is strong emotion continue to use the force.

Why don't you give the defense a break? Talking about their turnovers! Shame!

Steelers D has been in the top 10 in yards allowed and points allowed every year Ben has been in the league... and now they are getting older and you have the nerve to blame the D the first time they show they are human! Shaaaaaame!

Is it the same defense it was 3 years ago? Nope. Not nearly as good. Polamalu is getting older and Harrison is likely gone. They can't carry the D so now the D can't carry Ben. But you know what? They shouldn't have to.

How about the "top 5 quarterback" puts up one top 5 offense some time in the near future? He is going to have to do it in spite of his coordinators- they are only holding him back.

"Dear Steelers #1 Defense, you aren't doing enough. Please cause more turnovers and hold everyone to ten points a game. That way our quarterback can actually win games. He doesn't do so well if you score more than 20. Sincerely, a concerned fan."

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 10:27 AM
Give me the benefit of the doubt. If our offense scores 415pts and we make the playoffs as AFC North winner, I won't complain.

Steelers have only scored more than 400 points one time... under Neil ODonnell. 1995. Bring back Neil! :tt04:

And because I like to compare Ben's offense to Brady's offense... the Patriots have scored more than 400 points in 7 of Ben's 9 seasons including scoring more than 500 in each of the last 3.

Don't worry though folks... Ben will be elite one day... he just needs a little more time.

Until then the defense has to hold the opposition under 14 or the Steelers are gonna lose a lot of games.

Ricco Suavez
01-02-2013, 10:28 AM
I am sorry , I was talking team needs, like the need for effective rushing, some ST plays that actually help the team and not hamper. The defense is not immune to criticism or is that just for the offense and the QB position. We are 24th in the league in TO differential at -10, we have had only one defensive score this year and none on ST, LLoyd you are the one who ponied out the Chicago offense in earlier threads but they had 9 TDs by the defense and ST. I am willing to except the offense was a problem, I am willing to accept that Ben was part of that problem this year, why can't ya'll accept that the defense while #1 in yards and scoring still failed at plays that are game changers, and that the run game was anemic. BTW that elite carp is gettin old, I do not come here every thread touting Ben as elite. I do not compare Ben to Brady or Peyton yet its the only assessment that can make nay sense of your arguments. Why do you not post a rebuttal to the Bradshaw myth, facts scare you dont they.

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 10:29 AM
Why don't you give the defense a break? Talking about their turnovers! Shame!

Steelers D has been in the top 10 in yards allowed and points allowed every year Ben has been in the league... and now they are getting older and you have the nerve to blame the D the first time they show they are human! Shaaaaaame!

Is it the same defense it was 3 years ago? Nope. Not nearly as good. Polamalu is getting older and Harrison is likely gone. They can't carry the D so now the D can't carry Ben. But you know what? They shouldn't have to.

How about the "top 5 quarterback" puts up one top 5 offense some time in the near future? He is going to have to do it in spite of his coordinators- they are only holding him back.

"Dear Steelers #1 Defense, you aren't doing enough. Please cause more turnovers and hold everyone to ten points a game. That way our quarterback can actually win games. He doesn't do so well if you score more than 20. Sincerely, a concerned fan."

I am concerned with the lack of turnovers, however, I do think it has a lot to do with masking the decline and adding additional coverage assignments for the OLBs, Safeties helping more often to aid in developing emerging corners. I saw way more aggression out of the defense the last 2 weeks so, I do think they are capable of getting back at least 40-50% of the turnovers, sacks they used to get. I really felt the defense was ready for a run based on the way they rectified corner coverage and the perimeter issues. Such a shame.

Ben absolutely needs to be the leader and find a way to get 1 season of elite offense going - we absolutely need him to make it happen with his crew for them to seek #7- it cannot be on his skill set alone.

Twentyvalve
01-02-2013, 10:31 AM
Actually turnovers are a big part of the game. And the Steelers D sucks at that. Most teams can win a few games a year by points after turnovers, the more you get, the more potential for points. I would rather have a middle of the pack D that can actually force turnovers than the anomaly of D we have now.

Big plays win games. The D needs to learn to make a few. I think they may have had one or two really huge plays this year. They seem quite adept at big plays in the first half. Pretty useless.


Why don't you give the defense a break? Talking about their turnovers! Shame!

Steelers D has been in the top 10 in yards allowed and points allowed every year Ben has been in the league... and now they are getting older and you have the nerve to blame the D the first time they show they are human! Shaaaaaame!

Is it the same defense it was 3 years ago? Nope. Not nearly as good. Polamalu is getting older and Harrison is likely gone. They can't carry the D so now the D can't carry Ben. But you know what? They shouldn't have to.

How about the "top 5 quarterback" puts up one top 5 offense some time in the near future? He is going to have to do it in spite of his coordinators- they are only holding him back.

"Dear Steelers #1 Defense, you aren't doing enough. Please cause more turnovers and hold everyone to ten points a game. That way our quarterback can actually win games. He doesn't do so well if you score more than 20. Sincerely, a concerned fan."

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 10:43 AM
I am sorry , I was talking team needs, like the need for effective rushing, some ST plays that actually help the team and not hamper. The defense is not immune to criticism or is that just for the offense and the QB position. We are 24th in the league in TO differential at -10, we have had only one defensive score this year and none on ST, LLoyd you are the one who ponied out the Chicago offense in earlier threads but they had 9 TDs by the defense and ST. I am willing to except the offense was a problem, I am willing to accept that Ben was part of that problem this year, why can't ya'll accept that the defense while #1 in yards and scoring still failed at plays that are game changers, and that the run game was anemic. BTW that elite carp is gettin old, I do not come here every thread touting Ben as elite. I do not compare Ben to Brady or Peyton yet its the only assessment that can make nay sense of your arguments. Why do you not post a rebuttal to the Bradshaw myth, facts scare you dont they.

The only reason I mentioned the Bears was they scapegoated Mike Martz.

They fired Martz at the end of last year and brought in a new OC AND Brandon Marshall who already had great chemistry with Cutler.

The new OC with Marshall was worse than last year because Cutler sucks and his talent has been over-evaluated for years.

I thought it was a strong comparison to the Steelers predicament. The Steelers offense has now scored 20-23 ppg for 8 of Ben's 9 years. 3 different OCs 1 QB. Nothing changes.

People don't seem to get it.

Fire Arians
01-02-2013, 10:44 AM
as long as dwyer and redman are our top backs, nobody will respect our running game

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 10:49 AM
as long as dwyer and redman are our top backs, nobody will respect our running game

the only way I see the run game working enough is if both of them are in the best physical shape of their lives and severely commit - they would have to be focusing and playing at an A level week in and week out - but yes, no one does or will respect it and we will be stuck in a rut until that happens

OX1947
01-02-2013, 10:56 AM
When you find yourself blaming assistant freakin coaches for your teams issues, you know your team and common sense is shot. Whether it is Arians, Cameron, Martz, etc. All those teams suck with or without them. Assistant coaches are assistant coaches, they don't do jack crap a difference. Its players and the Head Coach who matter. Wake up and smell the logic.

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 10:58 AM
Actually turnovers are a big part of the game. And the Steelers D sucks at that. Most teams can win a few games a year by points after turnovers, the more you get, the more potential for points. I would rather have a middle of the pack D that can actually force turnovers than the anomaly of D we have now.

Big plays win games. The D needs to learn to make a few. I think they may have had one or two really huge plays this year. They seem quite adept at big plays in the first half. Pretty useless.

I agree that the D needs to cause more turnovers. While LeBeau's D isn't known for causing turnovers per se it certainly has generated more in the past.

Steelers D was 4th in turnovers in 2008 26th in 2009 6th in 2010 32nd in 2011 25th in 2012

Wow. Either Lebeau changes his defensive philosophy completely from one year to the next OR the players executing the plays aren't getting it done. I am going to go with the latter.

Harrison and Polamalu caused 15 turnovers in 2008, 16 in 2010, 4 in 2011, and 3 in 2012

Was Lebeau telling them not to cause turnovers the same way Tomlin tells Ben not to score too fast? Or are they just getting past their prime and can no longer perform miracles?

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 11:00 AM
the only way I see the run game working enough is if both of them are in the best physical shape of their lives and severely commit - they would have to be focusing and playing at an A level week in and week out - but yes, no one does or will respect it and we will be stuck in a rut until that happens

I think they should get fat and truck defenders like Bettis used to do. Remember when he was so fat defenders couldn't get their arms around him? Those were the days.

:applaudit:

Ricco Suavez
01-02-2013, 11:12 AM
The only reason I mentioned the Bears was they scapegoated Mike Martz.

They fired Martz at the end of last year and brought in a new OC AND Brandon Marshall who already had great chemistry with Cutler.

The new OC with Marshall was worse than last year because Cutler sucks and his talent has been over-evaluated for years.

I thought it was a strong comparison to the Steelers predicament. The Steelers offense has now scored 20-23 ppg for 8 of Ben's 9 years. 3 different OCs 1 QB. Nothing changes.

People don't seem to get it.

You know what else has not changed the owner and the Steeler philosophy, What has changed as much as any thing is poor OL play and that lack of a real rushing offense. We play under a salary Cap, money has to divided up in parts, some here for offense, and some here for defense, and some here for ST. The Steelers have always invested more into the Defense as well as high draft picks, they used to invest in the OL as this is what has made the great Steeler teams of old go, Defense and running the ball. Well they drafted Ben after seeing that you needed a QB to get over the hump so to speak and the team let the OL decline as bad as I have ever seen, yet we won with defense and Ben's play as a scrambling make something out of nothing QB. Now we have some talent and depth finally showing up on the OL but they are not there yet, proven by the lack of a running game. Its not Bens fault that we cannot run the ball, its not just the number of passes to run ratio, when we do run it has been ineffective that is reflected by the 3.7 yd average and the inability to get even 2 yds on short yardage situations. Give this team a running game again and watch the scoring average and wins go up, or commit to a true offensive style and see what Ben can do and then I will debate his worth again, right now he is more valuable to this team than ever before, but I do not expect you to see that, all you want to do is trot out Terry great scoring years but neglected to mention all those 2000 yd rushing years to go along with them.

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 11:13 AM
I think they should get fat and truck defenders like Bettis used to do. Remember when he was so fat defenders couldn't get their arms around him? Those were the days.

:applaudit:

I do remember lol. However, defenders just too athletic and speed is trumping girth. Funny how we're going back to seeing speed over power on defense (much like Hamm - although he was pretty freakin powerful enough)

Maybe it would work - maybe they need to see Woodley:chuckle:

Seriously though - the guy is as big as Ziggy Hood. Not good.
http://c10184100.r0.cf2.rackcdn.com/03-29-03_postseason-overdrive_420.jpg

Ricco Suavez
01-02-2013, 11:15 AM
I think they should get fat and truck defenders like Bettis used to do. Remember when he was so fat defenders couldn't get their arms around him? Those were the days.

:applaudit:

This comment alone proves that you are living in the past. Its a new NFL like it or not. The run is now secondary and until someone can either change the rules or can sign an Adrian Petersen on every team and sign several top notch OLinemen then it is not going to change.

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 11:20 AM
This comment alone proves that you are living in the past. Its a new NFL like it or not. The run is now secondary and until someone can either change the rules or can sign an Adrian Petersen on every team and sign several top notch OLinemen then it is not going to change.

yea, the past man, ...man:chuckle:

Ricco Suavez
01-02-2013, 11:22 AM
yea, the past man, ...man:chuckle:

They were good times.
:tt03:

GoFor7
01-02-2013, 11:22 AM
This comment alone proves that you are living in the past. Its a new NFL like it or not. The run is now secondary and until someone can either change the rules or can sign an Adrian Petersen on every team and sign several top notch OLinemen then it is not going to change.

Predictable play calling doesn't help either.

1st down: RUTM
2nd down: RUTM
3rd & long: BEN HELP!

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 11:25 AM
Predictable play calling doesn't help either.

1st down: RUTM
2nd down: RUTM
3rd & long: BEN HELP!

are we talking about now, or the 3 previous predictable seasons before that?

Millers the sh!t
01-02-2013, 11:27 AM
Interesting read I guess, but I'm more interested in redzone trips and TD % while in the redzone. You have the info on that?

GoFor7
01-02-2013, 11:32 AM
are we talking about now, or the 3 previous predictable seasons before that?

The previous 3 three seasons were better than 2012.

As for the 2009 season, the offense ranked 12th. While the offense certainly wasn't blameless, that year was known for the defense blowing 4th quarter leads.

Funny though, because after the 2009 season Artie started getting involved and making more demands about what he wanted to see from the offense - and the offense has been worse ever since. Maybe the organization should have wondered why the defense was blowing 4th quarter leads instead of pretending the offense was the main culprit of that season.

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 11:36 AM
Steelers 2009 Cumulative Red Zone efficiency:
41 trips, 20 TDs, 15 FGs, 1 missed FG, 5 turnovers

2010:
49 trips, 24 TDs, 19 FGs, 1 missed, 2 turnovers

2011:
53 trips, 27 TDs, still looking for FGs, missed, and turnovers in RZ

EDIT:
49.7 efficiency over 3 years. Sounds a lot like live by the sword and equally die by it offense to me.

Again Gofor7 - why don't you compare an equal body of work, then maybe I'll agree with you.

Ricco Suavez
01-02-2013, 11:40 AM
Interesting read I guess, but I'm more interested in redzone trips and TD % while in the redzone. You have the info on that?

I can only offer my opinion, you and others feel free to give yours. Red Zone was Arians downfall, his teams moved the ball from 20-20 as well as anyone, (it did not help that we are usually near the bottom in starting field position, a product of poor ST and lack of TOs) When inside the 20 you have "shortened the field" and it becomes more difficult to pass the closer you get to the goal line. I.E, on the 20 you have 30 yds of space and on the 5 you have narrowed it to 15, DBs and LBers crowd the line eliminating short quick passes if possible. These situations favor an offense with either a. a competent running game, or b. recievers that are big, and or physical. Arians did not use Heath to his advantage in these situations and if you have paid attention the last few years you know we struggled in short yardage situations. I think if Arians was here to run the offense til we crossed the opponents 20 and then implemented Haleys offense we would of scored more often.

GoFor7
01-02-2013, 11:44 AM
Steelers 2009 Cumulative Red Zone efficiency:
41 trips, 20 TDs, 15 FGs, 1 missed FG, 5 turnovers

2010:
49 trips, 24 TDs, 19 FGs, 1 missed, 2 turnovers

2011:
53 trips, 27 TDs, still looking for FGs, missed, and turnovers in RZ

EDIT:
49.7 efficiency over 3 years. Sounds a lot like live by the sword and equally die by it offense to me.

Again Gofor7 - why don't you compare and equal body of work, then maybe I'll agree with you.

So why did the 2009 offense rank 12th and those offenses rank worse? That year the offense scored more points than in the following 3 years.

Living by the sword and dying by it seems better than possessing the ball, hoping the defense keeps the team in it, and hoping Ben bails everyone out at the end.

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 11:45 AM
I can only offer my opinion, you and others feel free to give yours. Red Zone was Arians downfall, his teams moved the ball from 20-20 as well as anyone, (it did not help that we are usually near the bottom in starting field position, a product of poor ST and lack of TOs) When inside the 20 you have "shortened the field" and it becomes more difficult to pass the closer you get to the goal line. I.E, on the 20 you have 30 yds of space and on the 5 you have narrowed it to 15, DBs and LBers crowd the line eliminating short quick passes if possible. These situations favor an offense with either a. a competent running game, or b. recievers that are big, and or physical. Arians did not use Heath to his advantage in these situations and if you have paid attention the last few years you know we struggled in short yardage situations. I think if Arians was here to run the offense til we crossed the opponents 20 and then implemented Haleys offense we would of scored more often.

yes - you can say by record alone that we witnessed the worst TEAM since 2006, but 8-8 isn't a reflection of any one facet or coordinator alone.

If that were the case, Kordell's 13-3 squad was better than the 08 12-4 team. Record isn't any real indication of progress.

The Patriots game is a fine example of the red zone failures. We won, but were 2/5 in the red zone. God awful. It should have been by a larger margin.

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 11:47 AM
So why did the 2009 offense rank 12th and those offenses rank worse? That year the offense scored more points than in the following 3 years.

Living by the sword and dying by it seems better than possessing the ball, hoping the defense keeps the team in it, and hoping Ben bails everyone out at the end.

Rankings? Really?

Why exactly? Did he score a lot more points that way? I'm not seeing any history of a lot more points because of it.

GoFor7
01-02-2013, 11:50 AM
Rankings? Really?

Why exactly? Did he score a lot more points that way? I'm not seeing any history of a lot more points because of it.

The Haley apologists use the rankings to justify his offense this season - "he's ranked one spot higher than Arians' offense! IMPROVEMENT!!!!!!!!"

Can't have it both ways.

Ricco Suavez
01-02-2013, 11:52 AM
yes - you can say by record alone that we witnessed the worst TEAM since 2006, but 8-8 isn't a reflection of any one facet or coordinator alone.

If that were the case, Kordell's 13-3 squad was better than the 08 12-4 team. Record isn't any real indication of progress.

The Patriots game is a fine example of the red zone failures. We won, but were 2/5 in the red zone. God awful. It should have been by a larger margin.

I think you have my post confused with someone else, I did not mention records just why I think our Red Zone problems exist. But since you mentioned records I concur the Patriots 16-0 season meant squat without a championship, while the Giants 9-7 last year was enough to get in and win.

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 11:53 AM
The Haley apologists use the rankings to justify his offense this season - "he's ranked one spot higher than Arians' offense! IMPROVEMENT!!!!!!!!"

Can't have it both ways.

ok, I'm a Haley apologist - that's fair. Something different seemed a whole lot better than the norm. I'll give it a little more time before I'm ready to boot Haley.

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 11:54 AM
I think you have my post confused with someone else, I did not mention records just why I think our Red Zone problems exist. But since you mentioned records I concur the Patriots 16-0 season meant squat without a championship, while the Giants 9-7 last year was enough to get in and win.

it was more or less a response to the 8-8 record meaning our offense was worse.

Ricco Suavez
01-02-2013, 12:03 PM
it was more or less a response to the 8-8 record meaning our offense was worse.

I agree with you there also, 8-8 is worse than last year but we did not score many points either season. Biggest difference is that in the past we have found ways to win close games, (no I am not saying Ben did, I said the team) this year we lost a lot of close games. Bad luck, bad play, miscues, injuries, any and all contributed to this past season. I for one think it can be rectified and not a sign of things to come. I am already anxious for the next season.

Edman
01-02-2013, 12:11 PM
"Elite" Ben Roethlisberger in the Arians Offense. Steelers open up the field and the offense for him to let him shine. Ben is the centerpiece. The Steelers are gone from running the ball. These aren't your daddy's Steelers. Ben is the star of this show now.

2007: 65.3% 32 TD. 11 INT. 3124 Yds.

Pretty good right? Well...

2008: 17 TD. 15 INT. 3301 yds
2009*: 26 TD. 12 INT. 4328 yds.
2010: 17 TD. 5 INT. 3200 yds.
2011: 21 TD. 14 INT. 4077 yds.

*- Steelers Miss the Postseason.

Wow. 2007 was the only year Ben was voted to the Pro Bowl. In 2011, he got in only because Brady stepped out. Mediocrity. Thy name is Roethlisberger.

So let's check this out. Five Years in the same vertical passing game offense and Ben has not only failed to improve or match his first year (2007), but has declined considerably. 2008 was the most telling. 2009, the best of those years? The Steelers missed the playoffs. Coincidentally that year the Defense was not on top of their game. The other years, the Steelers Defense was ranked near the best in the league most of these years.

Let's go back further to the Whisenhunt Years. The guy Ben hated so much for supposedly "gimping" him.

2004: 17 TD, 11 INT. 2621 Yds
2005: 17 TD, 9 INT. 2385 Yds.
2006: 18 TD, 23 INT. 3513 Yds.

Not much of a change if you ask me from his production under Arians, minus that lone bright spot in 2007. So what's the difference? More Yards, I guess. We all know what happened in 2006. Motorbike Accident, Appendectomy, Concussion. It affected his play considerably. What does Ben do? He takes it out on Whisenhunt and blames him. He should be blowing these statistics out of the park if Whis was holding him back from greatness, instead blooms for one years and he improves by just a little. Now he throws a bit more Touchdowns per season. Wow. Look out NFL. Ben's been unshackled and he's taking the league by storm!

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 12:12 PM
The previous 3 three seasons were better than 2012.

As for the 2009 season, the offense ranked 12th. While the offense certainly wasn't blameless, that year was known for the defense blowing 4th quarter leads.

Funny though, because after the 2009 season Artie started getting involved and making more demands about what he wanted to see from the offense - and the offense has been worse ever since. Maybe the organization should have wondered why the defense was blowing 4th quarter leads instead of pretending the offense was the main culprit of that season.

^ This is a complete fabrication!

Haley's offense was 55% in the redzone. The previous 3 offenses were 52%, 50% and 48%. Haley was marginally better but how much do you expect him to improve with the same quarterback?

The top redzone percentages by far belonged to NE, NO, GB all around 70%. WASH was 4th with 60%. So it was NE, NO, GB and then everyone else.

What do NE, NO, GB have in common? You guessed it! Genius offensive coordinators scheming for victory!

NE, NO and GB lead the majority of offensive statistical categories for a reason - they have the best coordinators! Hire those guys!

Good for Artie! He needs to get involved but you're wrong about his input. Artie wants a more conservative offense with a running attack. His patience wore out with Arians' refusal to implement such an offense.

If Haley wants to keep his job he will establish a running game.

2008 was the last year Roethlisberger averaged less than 30 throws per game. 2008 was the last year the Steelers won a superbowl. The only other previous year that Roethlisberger threw more than 30 times per game was 2006 when the Steelers missed the playoffs.

Ben is 55-10 lifetime when he throws fewer than 30 times in a game.

Ben needs to throw more! Ben is too elite for winning!

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 12:18 PM
^ This is a complete fabrication!

Haley's offense was 55% in the redzone. The previous 3 offenses were 52%, 50% and 48%. Haley was marginally better but how much do you expect him to improve with the same quarterback?

The top redzone percentages by far belonged to NE, NO, GB all around 70%. WASH was 4th with 60%. So it was NE, NO, GB and then everyone else.

What do NE, NO, GB have in common? You guessed it! Genius offensive coordinators scheming for victory!

NE, NO and GB lead the majority of offensive statistical categories for a reason - they have the best coordinators! Hire those guys!

Good for Artie! He needs to get involved but you're wrong about his input. Artie wants a more conservative offense with a running attack. His patience wore out with Arians' refusal to implement such an offense.

If Haley wants to keep his job he will establish a running game.

2008 was the last year Roethlisberger averaged less than 30 throws per game. 2008 was the last year the Steelers won a superbowl. The only other previous year that Roethlisberger threw more than 30 times per game was 2006 when the Steelers missed the playoffs.

Ben is 55-10 lifetime when he throws fewer than 30 times in a game.

Ben needs to throw more! Ben is too elite for winning!


55-10 when throwing fewer than 30 MIGHT be telling, and I am on a big Ben rip, so I'll ease off the Ben-under-bus pedal a bit - I just want the guy to rise above thinking he knows best, and realize, he could be even better with more minds - not just one that thinks alike!

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 12:18 PM
"Elite" Ben Roethlisberger in the Arians Offense. Steelers open up the field and the offense for him to let him shine...

2007: 65.3% 32 TD. 11 INT. 3124 Yds.

Seems good right? Well...

2008: 17 TD. 15 INT. 3301 yds
2009*: 26 TD. 12 INT. 4328 yds.
2010: 17 TD. 5 INT. 3200 yds.
2011: 21 TD. 14 INT. 4077 yds.

*- Steelers Miss the Postseason.

2007 was the only year Ben was voted to the Pro Bowl. In 2011, he got in only because Brady stepped out. Mediocrity. Thy name is Roethlisberger.

So let's check this out. Five Years in the same vertical passing game offense and Ben has not only failed to improve or match his first year (2007), but has declined considerably. 2008 was the most telling. 2009, the best of those years? The Steelers missed the playoffs. Coincidentally that year the Defense was not on top of their game. The other years, the Steelers Defense was ranked near the best in the league most of these years.

Let's go back further to the Whisenhunt Years. The guy Ben hated so much for supposedly "gimping" him.

2004: 17 TD, 11 INT. 2621 Yds
2005: 17 TD, 9 INT. 2385 Yds.
2006: 18 TD, 23 INT. 3513 Yds.

Not much of a change if you ask me from his production under Arians, minus that lone bright spot in 2007. So what's the difference? More Yards, I guess. We all know what happened in 2006. Motorbike Accident, Appendectomy, Concussion. It affected his play considerably. What does Ben do? He takes it out on Whisenhunt and blames him. He should be blowing these statistics out of the park if Whis was holding him back from greatness, instead he improves by just a little. Now he throws a bit more Touchdowns per season. Wow. Look out NFL. Ben's been unshackled and he's taking the league by storm!

Ben threw 170 more times in 2006 than he ever had previously. That is why he had much bigger numbers like 1 extra touchdown and 14 extra interceptions.

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 12:20 PM
Ben threw 170 more times in 2006 than he ever had previously. That is why he had much bigger numbers like 1 extra touchdown and 14 extra interceptions.

you're on fire dude - sorry, the guy just needs to get back to trusting a system just a little more

That system had him firing on all cylinders in the 05 playoffs. If we can get a respectable run game going, then I believe Ben can effectively torch defenses when they are expecting us to pound it

But, dropping back often when no one respects or expects the run? Disaster.

harrison'samonster
01-02-2013, 12:27 PM
If we can get a respectable run game going, then I believe Ben can effectively torch defenses when they are expecting us to pound it

But, dropping back often when no one respects or expects the run? Disaster.

I can't agree more. Injuries on the O-line and inconsistent running really hurt this offense. We became one-sided.

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 12:27 PM
55-10 when throwing fewer than 30 MIGHT be telling, and I am on a big Ben rip, so I'll ease off the Ben-under-bus pedal a bit - I just want the guy to rise above thinking he knows best, and realize, he could be even better with more minds - not just one that thinks alike!

You have to keep Ben under the bus. It is your job as a civilized person.

"Next, Porter took Roethlisberger to task for separating himself from the team, according to Davenport.

"Last year you used to hang out with us," Davenport recalls Joey Porter saying. "This year, it's like 'the Pittsburgh Steelers and Ben.'" " From ESPN

It has been the Steelers vs. Ben for a long time now... since 2006. If you let off that gas pedal and Roethlisberger gets out from under that bus... then the rest of the Steelers are going under the bus.

Didn't you read the posts calling for LeBeau to step down after 9 straight top 10 defenses? The calls for a new OC? New RBs?

All most fans want is for Ben to stop openly criticizing his OC's "dink and dunk" offense. All most fans want is the return of a balanced offense.

Ricco Suavez
01-02-2013, 12:34 PM
"Elite" Ben Roethlisberger in the Arians Offense. Steelers open up the field and the offense for him to let him shine. Ben is the centerpiece. The Steelers are gone from running the ball. These aren't your daddy's Steelers. Ben is the star of this show now.

2007: 65.3% 32 TD. 11 INT. 3124 Yds.

Pretty good right? Well...

2008: 17 TD. 15 INT. 3301 yds
2009*: 26 TD. 12 INT. 4328 yds.
2010: 17 TD. 5 INT. 3200 yds.
2011: 21 TD. 14 INT. 4077 yds.

*- Steelers Miss the Postseason.

Wow. 2007 was the only year Ben was voted to the Pro Bowl. In 2011, he got in only because Brady stepped out. Mediocrity. Thy name is Roethlisberger.

So let's check this out. Five Years in the same vertical passing game offense and Ben has not only failed to improve or match his first year (2007), but has declined considerably. 2008 was the most telling. 2009, the best of those years? The Steelers missed the playoffs. Coincidentally that year the Defense was not on top of their game. The other years, the Steelers Defense was ranked near the best in the league most of these years.

Let's go back further to the Whisenhunt Years. The guy Ben hated so much for supposedly "gimping" him.

2004: 17 TD, 11 INT. 2621 Yds
2005: 17 TD, 9 INT. 2385 Yds.
2006: 18 TD, 23 INT. 3513 Yds.

Not much of a change if you ask me from his production under Arians, minus that lone bright spot in 2007. So what's the difference? More Yards, I guess. We all know what happened in 2006. Motorbike Accident, Appendectomy, Concussion. It affected his play considerably. What does Ben do? He takes it out on Whisenhunt and blames him. He should be blowing these statistics out of the park if Whis was holding him back from greatness, instead blooms for one years and he improves by just a little. Now he throws a bit more Touchdowns per season. Wow. Look out NFL. Ben's been unshackled and he's taking the league by storm!

I will add some points you failed to cover. First in Bens career we have had a season of 15-1 , three 12-4 seasons, one 11-5 season, a 10-6 seasons,and a 9-7 season . We have had two 8-8 seasons, this past one and Cowhers last year that also coincided with Bens crash year and appendectomy. During those successful years with one exception( I will address that in a moment) we have had near or above 2000 yards of rushing and an average of 4.0 or better. A good rushing offense is a QB/Coach best friend. Last year we averaged 3.7, a full half yd difference in most cases, a significant amount spread over a game much less a season. One other time this run game was as bad that was in 2008, a Superbowl year, a year that the Steelers truly struggled on offense, yet Ben was the benefactor of the most dominant defense for most of that year, and had several key comebacks that year including the SB. Its is true he struggled with no running game and he did better this year with the same kind of running game, yet he failed to deliver as many come from behind games. BTW in 2009 we had a 9-7 record the defense gave up four 4th quarter leads that year in a row and we lost 5 games in a row, there was some serious bashing of the defense but they bounced back OK. No reason to not think the same can be done once we get a running game. BTW its easy to throw fewer than 30 times a game if you have a running game that works.

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 12:35 PM
You have to keep Ben under the bus. It is your job as a civilized person.

"Next, Porter took Roethlisberger to task for separating himself from the team, according to Davenport.

"Last year you used to hang out with us," Davenport recalls Joey Porter saying. "This year, it's like 'the Pittsburgh Steelers and Ben.'" " From ESPN

It has been the Steelers vs. Ben for a long time now... since 2006. If you let off that gas pedal and Roethlisberger gets out from under that bus... then the rest of the Steelers are going under the bus.

Didn't you read the posts calling for LeBeau to step down after 9 straight top 10 defenses? The calls for a new OC? New RBs?

All most fans want is for Ben to stop openly criticizing his OC's "dink and dunk" offense. All most fans want is the return of a balanced offense.

Yup. Exactly. He just needs to shut up and buy in. That's all. Maybe if he didn't have a rep, I wouldn't open my big mouth, but - the rep and portrayed attitude towards everything outside of his own beliefs go hand in hand.

Ricco Suavez
01-02-2013, 12:38 PM
Its is hard to trust a system that for years neglected the OlL problems, it is hard to trust a system that cannot produce a decent running game. You find a running game with what we have right now and I promise you we can return to the "good old glory days" until then live with what you got or watch something on the reality channel.

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 12:40 PM
I will add some points you failed to cover. First in Bens career we have had a season of 15-1 , three 12-4 seasons, one 11-5 season, a 10-6 seasons,and a 9-7 season . We have had two 8-8 seasons, this past one and Cowhers last year that also coincided with Bens crash year and appendectomy. During those successful years with one exception( I will address that in a moment) we have had near or above 2000 yards of rushing and an average of 4.0 or better. A good rushing offense is a QB/Coach best friend. Last year we averaged 3.7, a full half yd difference in most cases, a significant amount spread over a game much less a season. One other time this run game was as bad that was in 2008, a Superbowl year, a year that the Steelers truly struggled on offense, yet Ben was the benefactor of the most dominant defense for most of that year, and had several key comebacks that year including the SB. Its is true he struggled with no running game and he did better this year with the same kind of running game, yet he failed to deliver as many come from behind games. BTW in 2009 we had a 9-7 record the defense gave up four 4th quarter leads that year in a row and we lost 5 games in a row, there was some serious bashing of the defense but they bounced back OK. No reason to not think the same can be done once we get a running game. BTW its easy to throw fewer than 30 times a game if you have a running game that works.

I really think you just boiled it down for me. IMO - Ben needs a reliable, constant presence at RB (and having reliable WRs helps as well - imagine that!) for him to lead 7 pt drives, and to consistently exceed moving forward. In general - he needs the balanced system and its weapons moving forward. i don't think he can just improv his way to #7. That's all.

Ricco Suavez
01-02-2013, 12:55 PM
All I have tried to point out to any detractor of our QB play is that it is tied directly to our ability to run. When you abandon the run or run with no gain then you have to have to game plan accordingly, which once again I do not think we have done, even with Arians, I feel Haleys plan can work but not with what he did this year, he is going to have to compromise his system some, and Ben in turn has to adapt more to Haleys way. With all that said I feel Ben should be more in control and be allowed to freelance from time to time, even run the no-huddle more.

austinfrench76
01-02-2013, 12:58 PM
I agree with most of what's being said on this thread but mainly that Identity is a word that escapes the Steeler offense. 1st, because of Ben and the fact that he is an elite QB who wants to throw the ball. Secondly, because Arians was his OC for the majority of his career and a push over. Hence, we don't really have a balanced Offense becasue we don't know how too. Since Ben got here, he HAS been at war with the Steelers. They basically fired Arians becasue of it.

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 01:01 PM
I agree with most of what's being said on this thread but mainly that Identity is a word that escapes the Steeler offense. 1st, because of Ben and the fact that he is an elite QB who wants to throw the ball. Secondly, because Arians was his OC for the majority of his career and a push over. Hence, we don't really have a balanced Offense becasue we don't know how too. Since Ben got here, he HAS been at war with the Steelers. They basically fired Arians becasue of it.

Yup. Sometimes I get the feeling that Ben feels 100% responsible for both SB wins, when in fact, he had 1 great drive, all other 52 men be damned. I just don't think he's earned the right to call the shots on offense. I just don't see the proof of why he deserves it.

Ricco - I would like to see more no huddle - but, they have to use it a lot earlier than late in the game, also - the run game is tied into that - and, IMO, Ben doesn't do a great job of correctly calling the run plays. He out-thunk himself a little too often instead of sticking with the call, or going to something more favorable

Ricco Suavez
01-02-2013, 01:07 PM
I agree with most of what's being said on this thread but mainly that Identity is a word that escapes the Steeler offense. 1st, because of Ben and the fact that he is an elite QB who wants to throw the ball. Secondly, because Arians was his OC for the majority of his career and a push over. Hence, we don't really have a balanced Offense becasue we don't know how too. Since Ben got here, he HAS been at war with the Steelers. They basically fired Arians becasue of it.

I wish you would not use the word Elite, it just stirs up issues. Ben wants to throw the ball, no argument from me, name a QB that does not want to throw the ball. As far as being at war with the Steelers I just cant agree with that as an absolute, for one thing a lot of current and former players have been at odds with the Steelers for various reasons. I know that Ben has not fully bought into Haley and whether we failed this season because of it or because of the system its self is what is really up to debate. I for one believe it to be a matter of both, Ben was not as good late in the season and after watching Haleys offense the last few games I have to agree he did Ben no favors. On the other hand I saw Ben and the offense coinciding early and to me at least they looked pretty good. This season may be a waste to some but if the participates take what they learned and use it next season we could see a much improved team.

Gnutella
01-02-2013, 01:11 PM
Wow. 2007 was the only year Ben was voted to the Pro Bowl. In 2011, he got in only because Brady stepped out.

In 2011, Ben Roethlisberger received the second-most votes of all AFC QBs, so he was, in fact, voted to the Pro Bowl. Oops.

steelfury02
01-02-2013, 01:14 PM
I wish you would not use the word Elite, it just stirs up issues. Ben wants to throw the ball, no argument from me, name a QB that does not want to throw the ball. As far as being at war with the Steelers I just cant agree with that as an absolute, for one thing a lot of current and former players have been at odds with the Steelers for various reasons. I know that Ben has not fully bought into Haley and whether we failed this season because of it or because of the system its self is what is really up to debate. I for one believe it to be a matter of both, Ben was not as good late in the season and after watching Haleys offense the last few games I have to agree he did Ben no favors. On the other hand I saw Ben and the offense coinciding early and to me at least they looked pretty good. This season may be a waste to some but if the participates take what they learned and use it next season we could see a much improved team.

this^ if they build on it - watch out.

Winning is a great medicine for any inside issues.

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 01:34 PM
I wish you would not use the word Elite, it just stirs up issues. Ben wants to throw the ball, no argument from me, name a QB that does not want to throw the ball. As far as being at war with the Steelers I just cant agree with that as an absolute, for one thing a lot of current and former players have been at odds with the Steelers for various reasons. I know that Ben has not fully bought into Haley and whether we failed this season because of it or because of the system its self is what is really up to debate. I for one believe it to be a matter of both, Ben was not as good late in the season and after watching Haleys offense the last few games I have to agree he did Ben no favors. On the other hand I saw Ben and the offense coinciding early and to me at least they looked pretty good. This season may be a waste to some but if the participates take what they learned and use it next season we could see a much improved team.

You can not judge Haley's offense by the last two games. Haley ran the ball against Cincy because the Steelers ran all over them in their first meeting, the weather was terrible and that means running is a good idea, and Ben had just lost the 2 previous games throwing more than 40 times. Antonio Brown lost the Dallas game with a fumble but Ben lost the Cincy game with a pick 6. It was a team effort.

Edman
01-02-2013, 01:34 PM
You have to keep Ben under the bus. It is your job as a civilized person.

"Next, Porter took Roethlisberger to task for separating himself from the team, according to Davenport.

"Last year you used to hang out with us," Davenport recalls Joey Porter saying. "This year, it's like 'the Pittsburgh Steelers and Ben.'" " From ESPN

It has been the Steelers vs. Ben for a long time now... since 2006. If you let off that gas pedal and Roethlisberger gets out from under that bus... then the rest of the Steelers are going under the bus.

Didn't you read the posts calling for LeBeau to step down after 9 straight top 10 defenses? The calls for a new OC? New RBs?

All most fans want is for Ben to stop openly criticizing his OC's "dink and dunk" offense. All most fans want is the return of a balanced offense.

Bingo. Ben should shut the hell up.

I don't care if it's dink and dunk or stale or Cowherball or whatever the hell it's called. It's working and it's helping the team. Ben the Mr. Know-It-All is a significant factor in the downfall of the 2012 campaign, throwing the season away because he wanted to do what he wanted to prove something to the Rooneys and the Organization. Yeah, he proved something alright, and a lingering sentiment that hung around since his rookie year. That it is best for the team if the offense isn't in your hands.

The Running game has to improve. It is a MUST.

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 01:42 PM
Bingo. Ben should shut the hell up.

I don't care if it's dink and dunk or stale or Cowherball or whatever the hell it's called. It's working and it's helping the team. Ben the Mr. Know-It-All is a significant factor in the downfall of the 2012 campaign, throwing the season away because he wanted to do what he wanted to prove something to the Rooneys and the Organization. Yeah, he proved something alright, and a lingering sentiment that hung around since his rookie year. That it is best for the team if the ball isn't in your hands.

The Running game has to improve. It is a MUST.

Yeah the running game has to improve. Those that want Ben to throw more make my head spin. The idea that Ben was going to air it out to victory is why the personnel exists on the Steelers the way it does.

Haley marks a change in philosophy. As soon as Arians goes the first 2 draft picks are offensive line- a commitment to the run. DeCastro was a major indicator of the direction the team wants to go. Mike Adams was a reminder.

The team is already moving towards the run. Because of the injuries to the line Haley used passes to running backs in place of a running game. I hope to see more run next year.

And to be fair Ben's passing totals are inflated. Short passes to the running backs are really handoffs. He isn't throwing 35-40 times a game it is more like 30-35.

Ben should welcome the new offense. It is going to pad his stats in completion % and tds and result in fewer interceptions. It is also going to take him to the superbowl again if he buys in. If Ben gets a superbowl MVP I will gladly shut up forever.:chuckle:

Gnutella
01-02-2013, 01:51 PM
Ben is 55-10 lifetime when he throws fewer than 30 times in a game.

Are we really back to that stupid shit again? :doh:

Here are Roethlisberger's career numbers on pass attempts 31 and higher:


278/444, 3,343 yards, 23 TD, 18 INT -- 86.0 rating


Now, to show you how significantly one bad season skews the numbers, here are his career numbers on pass attempts 31 and higher minus 2006:


240/375, 2,863 yards, 22 TD, 11 INT -- 94.6 rating


Outside the 2006 season, Roethlisberger has a 2/1 TD/INT ratio on pass attempts 31 and higher. That doesn't sound like somebody who's a liability when attempting more than 30 passes. If anything, that sounds like somebody who should be trusted with the ball.

It's a shame that one bad season out of nine could have such a negative impact on his numbers, and an even bigger shame that people still want to dwell in 2006, as though a) that season is anywhere close to the norm for Roethlisberger, and b) he hasn't become a better QB since then.

Gnutella
01-02-2013, 01:58 PM
And to be fair Ben's passing totals are inflated. Short passes to the running backs are really handoffs. He isn't throwing 35-40 times a game it is more like 30-35.

Well then Drew Brees only throws 20 to 25 times per game instead of 40.

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 02:03 PM
Are we really back to that stupid shit again? :doh:

Here are Roethlisberger's career numbers on pass attempts 31 and higher:


278/444, 3,343 yards, 23 TD, 18 INT -- 86.0 rating


Now, to show you how significantly one bad season skews the numbers, here are his career numbers on pass attempts 31 and higher minus 2006:


240/375, 2,863 yards, 22 TD, 11 INT -- 94.6 rating[


Outside the 2006 season, Roethlisberger has a 2/1 TD/INT ratio on pass attempts 31 and higher. That doesn't sound like somebody who's a liability when attempting more than 30 passes. If anything, that sounds like a QB who should be trusted with the ball.

It's a shame that one bad season out of nine could have such a negative impact on his numbers, and an even bigger shame that people still want to dwell in 2006, as though a) that season is anywhere close to the norm for Roethlisberger, and b) he hasn't become a better QB since then.

He has become a better quarterback but that does not change the fact that he needs the run to win. The Steelers must implement the run. His record when throwing fewer than 30 times is a helluva lot better than his record when he throws more than 30 times. 5-5 when over and 2-1 when under in 2012. 9-4 when over 3-0 when under in 2011. 13-8 when over and 5-1 when under over the last 2 seasons.

Ben needs a running game same as every other quarterback.

lloydwoodson
01-02-2013, 02:10 PM
Well then Drew Brees only throws 20 to 25 times per game instead of 40.

Brees throws 35 times a game if you subtract passes to running backs. Ben throws 30 times a game if you subtract passes to running backs.

desertsteel
01-02-2013, 02:21 PM
Thanks. I think it's nonsense that Ben doesn't buy in Haley's system. The problem is that the running game is non-existence. Even the Saints and the Packers have better running game than the Steelers and the Steelers still insist to have a 'balance offense' which to me is stupid.
The problem is that every RB on the roster is a bum. We try to fool ourselves into thinking otherwise. Just consider that beast Morris for the Redskins; anyone like him on the roster? My point.

torpedoshell31
01-02-2013, 04:16 PM
The problem is mostly our OL. When you try to run the ball every week behind a banged up, patch work offensive line it just isn't going to work. Our offense is based on Ben scrambling around, shaking off 4 defenders and trying to make something happen out of nothing. We won't have a balanced offense until we get a healthy, consistent OL.

GoFor7
01-02-2013, 05:28 PM
Bingo. Ben should shut the hell up.

I don't care if it's dink and dunk or stale or Cowherball or whatever the hell it's called. It's working and it's helping the team. Ben the Mr. Know-It-All is a significant factor in the downfall of the 2012 campaign, throwing the season away because he wanted to do what he wanted to prove something to the Rooneys and the Organization. Yeah, he proved something alright, and a lingering sentiment that hung around since his rookie year. That it is best for the team if the offense isn't in your hands.

The Running game has to improve. It is a MUST.

8-8

It's sure working really well....

lloydwoodson
01-03-2013, 08:38 PM
8-8

It's sure working really well....

Ben threw a pick 6 in two of those 8 losses.

Your thoughts.

lardlad
01-03-2013, 08:54 PM
The NFL is full of guys with assaults, DUIs and drug possessions and fans hate Mendy because of his tweets.... :banging:

Nice, that is a great point.

I don't care what he thinks either, hell he's been accused of a lot less than other people on the team, outside the game a anyway. My beef with Mendy is he only seems to run hard after he had his ass chewed.

No doubt he is the most talented guy carrying the ball, I'm just puzzled why it is so hard to get out of him.

I'm pulling for him, but hey if someone better is available…

GoFor7
01-03-2013, 09:02 PM
Ben threw a pick 6 in two of those 8 losses.

Your thoughts.

Same as they've been for a while - the Steelers need to stop dicking around for the majority of the game with this small ball shit.

lloydwoodson
01-03-2013, 10:51 PM
The problem is that every RB on the roster is a bum. We try to fool ourselves into thinking otherwise. Just consider that beast Morris for the Redskins; anyone like him on the roster? My point.

Yeah every rb on the roster is kind of a bum. Every one of them had fumbling problems this year and Mendenhall has had attitude problems.

I know how to fix it! Replace Haley with Kirby Wilson and get a RB coach that can do the job! This will fix the offense.

Same as they've been for a while - the Steelers need to stop dicking around for the majority of the game with this small ball shit.

Interesting... interesting... so you are saying that Ben should not be throwing pick 6s in the 4th quarter like he did on the final drive in the hurry up offense @ Denver... he should be throwing them earlier like the one he threw in Cincy in the 2nd quarter to end the season? Is it possible that Ben came into week 1 with an injury? I am waiting for him to confirm this suspicion but I think it is possible. Why else would he throw an int to lose the game?

Riddle_Of_Steel
01-04-2013, 12:30 PM
8-8

It's sure working really well....

Take away the losses to Dallas and San Diego because we had no secondary (and nothing to do with Haley) and we are 10-6 and in the playoffs.

You like to keep bringing up the 8-8 record because it is easier than explaining why we started out 6-3 but finished out at 1-5.

Your arguments are lacking any teeth whatsoever.

Riddle_Of_Steel
01-04-2013, 12:34 PM
The answer to the running game problems are simple: Tomlin and Mendy need to kiss and make up.

Mendy was starting to get back to form near the end, and is the legit #1 RB that we needed all year. I don't think he and Tomlin have ever gotten along. Nobody, including the coach, acknowleged that Mendy had to rehab REALLY HARD to get back to playing football in 12 months for what was projected to be an 18 month rehab on his knee.

Of course he was not going to be 100% right after that.

There is no need to burn another high draft pick this April to bring in another franchise RB, when we already have one and the defense needs so much work. Tomlin is letting his personal feelings get in teh way of doing his job efficiently on this one, IMHO.

Riddle_Of_Steel
01-04-2013, 12:37 PM
Yeah, Mendy needs to re-evaluate his attitude, but to be fair, if I busted my ass to rehab and get back to playing shape, and then get benched for a mistake that 3 other guys were also guilty of-- I might be inclined to blow off my employer as well.

I also do not appreciate his 911 Truther statements-- but his personal feelings are his own. Me personaly- I would rather have a deep thinker on our team than a Pacman Jones or am Odell Thruman.

Tomlin and Mendy need to get past this because it is hurting the team for reasons I classify as "petty".

Hawaii 5-0
01-04-2013, 04:50 PM
Steelers’ rushing woes drop to historic levels

By Alan Robinson
Published: Thursday, January 3, 2013

The Steelers‘ worst full-season rushing yardage totals in past 50 years:

Yards Year Record

1,092 1966 5-8-1

1,378 1965 2-12

1,397 1967 4-9-1

1,488 2003 6-10

1,537 2012 8-8

1,542 1969 1-13

1,627 1991 7-9

1,690 2008 12-4

1,715 1970 5-9

1,721 1968 2-11-1

Fewest yards by Steelers‘ single-season leader (16-game schedule):

Yards Player Year

610 Merril Hoge 1991

623 Jonathan Dwyer 2012

696 Earnest Jackson 1987

705 Merril Hoge 1988

762 Amos Zereoue 2002

Team president Art Rooney created a stir when a playoffs-free season prompted him to mandate the Steelers run the ball more consistently and efficiently.

That was nearly three years ago, and it still hasn‘t happened.

Since Rooney‘s mandate, the Steelers‘ rushing yardage bumped to 1,924 yards in 2010 (from 1,793 yards in ‘09) but has declined to 1,903 in ‘11 to 1,537 in ‘12, or only 49 yards fewer than they had while going 6-10 in 2003 — pass-heavy Tommy Maddox‘s one full season at quarterback.

Blame it on injuries, personnel turnover or the inability to identify and stay with a feature running back. Whatever the reason, the Steelers‘ running game reached historically low proportions during a 2012 season in which the productivity was confined mostly to a three-game midseason stretch.

Even as the Steelers tried Jonathan Dwyer, Isaac Redman and Rashard Mendenhall as their lead runner, and they handed carries to Chris Rainey and Baron Batch, those 1,537 yards were their second fewest in a full season since the NFL adopted a 16-game schedule in 1978.

It also was their fifth-worst rushing season in the past 50 years and their worst in any nonlosing season during that time. Dwyer‘s 623 yards also represented the second-lowest total by a team leader to Merril Hoge‘s 610 yards in 1991.

Adrian Peterson of the Minnesota Vikings, for comparison‘s sake, had far more yards in December (861) than Dwyer did all season.

Was it the lack of an identifiable feature runner, especially when former 1,000-yard runner Mendenhall was sidelined for the first month after knee surgery?

“I‘m sure that would be a fair assessment,” coach Mike Tomlin said. “But there are also several reasons why that didn‘t occur, just general ineffectiveness being one of them.”

The Steelers seemed to have sorted out their running game when, during a three-game stretch from Oct. 21-Nov. 4, Dwyer ran off games of 122 yards against the Bengals and 107 against the Redskins and Redman ran for 147 yards against the Giants. Coincidentally, a much-injured offensive line settled down as Max Starks, Willie Colon, Maurkice Pouncey, Ramon Foster and Mike Adams started and blocked effectively.

But Colon and Adams later got hurt, Foster was forced to switch sides, David DeCastro returned to start at right guard, Kelvin Beachum became the third right tackle and Doug Legursky filled in at multiple positions, and no running back had more than 56 yards in a game after that.

Dwyer carried 17 times in each of his 100-yard games, but he had that many carries only once more the rest of the season.

“I think I‘ve proven myself this year to have the ability to compete for that job and compete for that role, and that‘s what I‘m going to prepare myself for in the offseason,” Dwyer said.

Regardless, the running game bottomed out during the eight-turnover, five-fumble game Nov. 28 in Cleveland, where Tomlin seemed to lose confidence in all of his runners. From then on, no running back gained more than 52 yards.

Starks‘ recommendation is to identify a feature back and stay with him.

“You can‘t have as much uncertainty going into a week,” Starks said. “Be more definitive about who your starter is, who is that main guy, and then who are your auxiliary and situation guys. Early on we didn‘t have that — it was like by committee, trying to feel it out. I think going into next year (there should be) clear and defined roles after training camp.”

Longtime NFL general manager Charley Casserly, now an NFL Network analyst, said the Steelers must do one more thing going into next season.

“They‘ve got to find a runner,” he said.

http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/3233003-74/yards-season-steelers#ixzz2H2uR8QKG

torpedoshell31
01-04-2013, 06:29 PM
If we draft Chance Warmack from Ala. in the first round, our OL next year is Adams, Warmack, Pouncey, DeCastro and Gilbert. You would be surprised how much better our backs look with a healthy, stable line in front of them.

pete74
01-04-2013, 06:35 PM
If we draft Chance Warmack from Ala. in the first round, our OL next year is Adams, Warmack, Pouncey, DeCastro and Gilbert. You would be surprised how much better our backs look with a healthy, stable line in front of them.

No way can we draft another offensive lineman early. Our entire line would be 1st and 2nd round picks. It won't happen

Fire Arians
01-04-2013, 06:47 PM
No way can we draft another offensive lineman early. Our entire line would be 1st and 2nd round picks. It won't happen

if he's the best player available at our pick i don't see why not. not a bad idea to solidify your o-line until the next decade

SteelersCanada
01-04-2013, 06:47 PM
No way can we draft another offensive lineman early. Our entire line would be 1st and 2nd round picks. It won't happen

Because it's not necessary. We haven't had our starting offensive line together yet and people are already asking for another linemen to be taken in the first round - it's a wasted pick. Let's see how our guys do as a unit (a healthy unit) before we start taking linemen when we could be reloading our defense.

steeltheone
01-04-2013, 07:05 PM
If we draft Chance Warmack from Ala. in the first round, our OL next year is Adams, Warmack, Pouncey, DeCastro and Gilbert. You would be surprised how much better our backs look with a healthy, stable line in front of them.

Lets hope DeCastro and Adams pan out....i know it was only a couple of starts but DeCastro looked like a free agent lineman. Im not saying he is or will be a flop, but he got trampled. For one of the top lineman in the draft, thats not good. Adams has his issues too, but i think everyone figured he needed a little more work. DeCastro was NFL ready.

lloydwoodson
01-04-2013, 07:23 PM
if he's the best player available at our pick i don't see why not. not a bad idea to solidify your o-line until the next decade

You can't put all your cap space into one position.... like the Steelers did by paying Roethlisberger more than P Manning, Brees and Rodgers (by cap penalty). Other parts of the team will suffer.

Offensive lines of SB QBs by draft pick:

Manning's SB OL: 1st, 4th, 5th, UDFA, UDFA
Brady's 1st SB OL: 2nd, UDFA, 3rd, 1st, 4th
Brady's last SB OL: 2nd, UDFA, 5th, UDFA, 7th
Brees SB OL 4th, 5th, 5th, 4th, 2nd
Rodgers SB OL: 2nd, 2nd, 7th, 4th, 4th

If you think the OL is the issue you are wrong. The Steelers draft big maulers like Kemoeatu and Colon and put them in pass protection. The problem is they aren't built to pass protect. The other problem is an OL made up of Ogden, Allen, Webster, Upshaw, Munoz would still give up 30 sacks a season playing in front of Roethlisberger while he holds the ball for 5 seconds on every pass.

The OL gets hurt year after year when they are pushed back into each other while trying to sustain blocks for Roethlisberger.

There is nothing wrong with the OL that Ben growing up and playing in a real system can't fix.

lloydwoodson
01-04-2013, 07:28 PM
Lets hope DeCastro and Adams pan out....i know it was only a couple of starts but DeCastro looked like a free agent lineman. Im not saying he is or will be a flop, but he got trampled. For one of the top lineman in the draft, thats not good. Adams has his issues too, but i think everyone figured he needed a little more work. DeCastro was NFL ready.

I agree DeCastro looked terrible in pass protection. Geno Atkins embarassed him but Geno Atkins embarassed a lot of players this year. Atkins is the best interior lineman in the NFL right now. DeCastro had played 1 game at the time.

Adams is going to be a very good player. Loved his hustle and he was always the first guy to stick up for teammates. He has a great motor. I think he will be the LT because he also has great feet. Time will tell.

This OL will not reach its peak until 2014 but should show big improvement next year.

TheVet
01-06-2013, 02:17 AM
If we draft Chance Warmack from Ala. in the first round, our OL next year is Adams, Warmack, Pouncey, DeCastro and Gilbert. You would be surprised how much better our backs look with a healthy, stable line in front of them.

If Gilbert can get his head straight. He took a big step backwards this year.

lloydwoodson
01-07-2013, 01:28 AM
If Gilbert can get his head straight. He took a big step backwards this year.

I think moving Gilbert to guard next year is the answer.

Starks DeCastro Pouncey Gilbert Adams

Someone has to be the odd man out if Starks stays and I hope he does.

Legursky and Foster the main backups. Of course someone will get hurt and everything will change.

teegre
01-07-2013, 07:47 AM
I think moving Gilbert to guard next year is the answer.

Starks DeCastro Pouncey Gilbert Adams

Someone has to be the odd man out if Starks stays and I hope he does.

I agree: Gilbert to LG is a good idea, if Starks returns.

Put the best five linemen on the field.

kan_t
01-07-2013, 10:09 AM
I think moving Gilbert to guard next year is the answer.

Starks DeCastro Pouncey Gilbert Adams

Someone has to be the odd man out if Starks stays and I hope he does.

Legursky and Foster the main backups. Of course someone will get hurt and everything will change.

I'm not sure Gilbert is a better guard than Foster. I think Foster is underrated here.

steelfury02
01-07-2013, 10:40 AM
I'm not sure Gilbert is a better guard than Foster. I think Foster is underrated here.

We absolutely need Gilbert to step up because A. Starks won't be around forever, if any longer for that matter and I wouldn't be shocked to see someone else be asked to play multiple positions again (even though I really just want good to dominant at each position) B. Someone is inevitably going to go down and while I like Legursky as a career fill-in, I believe Gilber > Legursky when committed in terms of more than capable bodies.

lloydwoodson
01-10-2013, 05:15 AM
I'm not sure Gilbert is a better guard than Foster. I think Foster is underrated here.

Foster is decent but is he better at G than Gilbert who seems unable to be effective at RT let alone people thinking he might develop into a LT. More of a criticism against Gilbert than Foster. Foster is a FA who may or may not return.

VaDave
01-10-2013, 06:15 AM
Total non-passing TDs by NFL team (2012)

33 - New England
28 - Washington
25 - Carolina
24 - Houston
22 - Baltimore
22 - Seattle
21 - Chicago
21 - Minnesota
21 - New York Giants
21 - San Francisco
20 - Denver
19 - Tennessee
18 - Miami
17 - Detroit
17 - Indianapolis
17 - New York Jets
17 - Tampa Bay
16 - Buffalo
15 - Cincinnati
15 - Cleveland
15 - New Orleans
14 - Arizona
14 - Atlanta
13 - Green Bay
13 - San Diego
12 - Dallas
11 - Philadelphia
10 - Kansas City
10 - St. Louis
9 - Pittsburgh
6 - Jacksonville
4 - Oakland


This season, the Steelers ranked 22nd in the NFL in TDs scored, with 36. Of those 36, 27 were scored by passing, eight by running, one by defense, and zero by special teams. Only four teams had fewer TD runs. Only three teams had fewer defensive TDs. No team had fewer special teams TDs. And as you can see on the chart above, only two teams had fewer non-passing TDs overall.

Conversely, only seven teams had more TD passes than the Steelers this season -- and this is with Ben Roethlisberger missing three-and-a-half games, and the backup QBs combining for one lonely TD pass.

As I've illustrated elsewhere, Roethlisberger was on pace to throw 33 TD passes in 16 games at the rate he was throwing them when he played.* If the Steelers had 33 TD passes, they'd rank 5th in the NFL in that regard, but still only 15th in total TDs. If they could rank in the top five in TD passes but still only be midpack in total TDs, then this proves that the scoring problem has nothing at all to do with the passing game.

It should also be noted that eight of the top dozen teams on that chart are playoff teams, but only two of the bottom dozen are. For that matter, only four playoff teams have scored fewer than 20 TDs by means other than the pass. In other words, there's a strong correlation between versatility in scoring TDs and the likelihood of making the playoffs.

(*: I am fully aware that playing 16 games could have resulted in fewer than 33 TD passes for Roethlisberger, but it could have just as easily resulted in more than 33 TD passes, for all we know.)

Maybe the mash unit of an offensive line we trotted out there may be more of an indicator? Like when the priority of the linemen is to keep your franchise QB healthy, working on pass protection might be a priority, meaning less practice snaps and less study for running plays.

wwhickok
01-10-2013, 06:23 AM
I admit I havent read through all the posts of this thread but I think based on the title, it DOES have something to do with the passing game but its just not limited to that. Our offebse is SUPER predictable almost every time we get the ball. Run on first down, run on 2nd down, pass on 3rd down. If the defense KNOWS how you are going to run your offense they need not bother trying to read the formation or play. The biggest issue with our offense is the unpredictability and the lack of a consistent offensive line. The second biggest problem is the #right of drops our WR's had this season. We need some consistency and 'surprise'to bqck in our offense.

Gnutella
01-10-2013, 07:22 AM
For those of you assholes still clamoring for Bruce Arians, allow me to slap you with some knowledge...


Ben Roethlisberger's TD passes per game per season

2007: 2.13
2008: 1.10
2009: 1.73
2010: 1.42
2011: 1.40
2012: 2.08


Those 2.08 TD passes per game this season came despite an offensive line and running game that were markedly inferior to what Roethlisberger benefited from in 2007. And I'm supposed to believe that Todd Haley's system won't work, or that Roethlisberger is stupid and/or uncoachable? Bullshit!

Somebody earlier talked about Roethlisberger being the common denominator on underachieving offenses. He's not the only one. You know what else is? A below-average supporting cast on offense. The offensive line has been bad since 2008. The RBs have all lacked either talent or commitment. The TEs were underutilized in the passing game until this season. The WRs have been overrated. (Yes, I said overrated. Hines Ward was the only consistent one. Antwaan Randle El, Santonio Holmes and Mike Wallace all made as many bonehead plays as good plays.)

Every other QB who's supposedly better than Roethlisberger has gotten more help from his teammates on offense in the last five seasons than Roethlisberger has. Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers have all had better offensive lines. Manning and Rodgers have had better WRs. Brees and Rodgers have been playing in better systems (although Haley's system is plenty good, contrary to popular opinion.) Even Matt Ryan has had a solid offensive line, two awesome WRs and a Hall-of-Fame TE, plus a good system now with Dirk Koetter. Plain and simple, Roethlisberger has had the worst supporting cast of any top-tier QB in the last five seasons.

And I'm not letting Arians off the hook for it either. At the end of the 2007 season, Roethlisberger's career TD percentage was 5.8%. At the end of the 2011 season, it was 5.0%. That's a precipitous decline. Enter Haley, and Roethlisberger's TD percentage this season was 5.8%, which is a nice jump, especially given the fact that his supporting cast wasn't any better this season than it was in the previous four.

Ben Roethlisberger ain't the problem, period, and neither is Todd Haley. The problem is everybody else on offense not named Heath Miller or Maurkice Pouncey.

teegre
01-10-2013, 07:52 AM
For those of you assholes still clamoring for Bruce Arians, allow me to slap you with some knowledge...


Ben Roethlisberger's TD passes per game per season

2007: 2.13
2008: 1.10
2009: 1.73
2010: 1.42
2011: 1.40
2012: 2.08


Those 2.08 TD passes per game this season came despite an offensive line and running game that were markedly inferior to what Roethlisberger benefited from in 2007. And I'm supposed to believe that Todd Haley's system won't work, or that Roethlisberger is stupid and/or uncoachable? Bullshit!

Somebody earlier talked about Roethlisberger being the common denominator on underachieving offenses. He's not the only one. You know what else is? A below-average supporting cast on offense. The offensive line has been bad since 2008. The RBs have all lacked either talent or commitment. The TEs were underutilized in the passing game until this season. The WRs have been overrated. (Yes, I said overrated. Hines Ward was the only consistent one. Antwaan Randle El, Santonio Holmes and Mike Wallace all made as many bonehead plays as good plays.)

Every other QB who's supposedly better than Roethlisberger has gotten more help from his teammates on offense in the last five seasons than Roethlisberger has. Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers have all had better offensive lines. Manning and Rodgers have had better WRs. Brees and Rodgers have been playing in better systems (although Haley's system is plenty good, contrary to popular opinion.) Even Matt Ryan has had a solid offensive line, two awesome WRs and a Hall-of-Fame TE, plus a good system now with Dirk Koetter. Plain and simple, Roethlisberger has had the worst supporting cast of any top-tier QB in the last five seasons.

And I'm not letting Arians off the hook for it either. At the end of the 2007 season, Roethlisberger's career TD percentage was 5.8%. At the end of the 2011 season, it was 5.0%. That's a precipitous decline. Enter Haley, and Roethlisberger's TD percentage this season was 5.8%, which is a nice jump, especially given the fact that his supporting cast wasn't any better this season than it was in the previous four.

Ben Roethlisberger ain't the problem, period, and neither is Todd Haley. The problem is everybody else on offense not named Heath Miller or Maurkice Pouncey.

Great post!!!

I agree: it was neither BB nor Haley; it was a rib/shoulder injury AND the execution (or lack thereof) of the WRs & RBs.

steelfury02
01-10-2013, 07:57 AM
good points

I'll still argue that the QB has to work on not reverting back to holding the ball for too long, but hell - I would start reverting back to some habits (not always bad ones) too if I was feeling as shitty as he probably felt after the injury

maddog78
01-10-2013, 07:59 AM
The Steelers lack killer instinct. Get up 7 or more, they pull the plug on the offense. Hate that philosophy. Bury the opponent, don't "keep it close and find a way to win" unless you are severely overmatched, which the Steelers rarely are.

If they try to play everyone close, they're going to have seasons like this, where a play here or there turns several games the wrong way. You never hear Belichick saying "there's a fine line" or "we didn't make significant plays at significant times". That's because he tries to win every game by 30 and his players take on that mindset.

steelfury02
01-10-2013, 08:05 AM
The Steelers lack killer instinct. Get up 7 or more, they pull the plug on the offense. Hate that philosophy. Bury the opponent, don't "keep it close and find a way to win" unless you are severely overmatched, which the Steelers rarely are.

If they try to play everyone close, they're going to have seasons like this, where a play here or there turns several games the wrong way. You never hear Belichick saying "there's a fine line" or "we didn't make significant plays at significant times". That's because he tries to win every game by 30 and his players take on that mindset.

killer instinct is exactly right - I see way too many instances of throwing up their hands, actually smiling when a drive fails - I don't see a lot of heated passion from anyone on that offense, unless that is, if they make a first down catch, then there's a lot of that meaningful flexing going on . . .:coffee:

lloydwoodson
01-11-2013, 02:49 PM
killer instinct is exactly right - I see way too many instances of throwing up their hands, actually smiling when a drive fails - I don't see a lot of heated passion from anyone on that offense, unless that is, if they make a first down catch, then there's a lot of that meaningful flexing going on . . .:coffee:

I watched a youtube clip of Tom Brady yelling at his teammates. He was livid that they weren't executing. They were up 10-3 over the Steelers at the time.

GoFor7
01-11-2013, 03:02 PM
Interesting read from Steelers Depot about why the offense faultered in the last few games. It points to more besides Ben's injury:

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2013/01/was-it-injury-or-lack-of-adjustments-that-caused-poor-play-by-roethlisberger-down-the-stretch/

Steeler7BR
01-11-2013, 04:29 PM
Interesting read from Steelers Depot about why the offense faultered in the last few games. It points to more besides Ben's injury:

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2013/01/was-it-injury-or-lack-of-adjustments-that-caused-poor-play-by-roethlisberger-down-the-stretch/

When you see the stats it don't put Haley in a very good light here because obviously the short throws that Haley wanted all year didn't worked anymore at the end of the season.

Did Ben flinch a little bit at the end? Yes. Did Haley offense was to uncreative and to predictable at the end of the year? I think so.

Gnutella
01-11-2013, 05:01 PM
Exactly what I've said elsewhere. Teams just took away all the short routes and were able to get pressure on Roethlisberger before he could throw it longer, especially once the offensive line started to get injured (again). It didn't help that the WRs are all smurfs who can't beat press coverage, or that the running game was unable to pick up the slack. As for Todd Haley, if he sticks around, then I have faith that he'll make adjustments going forward, which was too much to ask of his predecessor. And Roethlisberger's injury did still play a part in this whole mess. Just because he was accurate on a few notable throws doesn't mean that his shoulder wasn't bothering him.

This season could best be described as "death by a thousand cuts."