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wwhickok
01-07-2013, 12:54 PM
Before you rush to a quick answer take a moment and really think about our current roster. There have been times in the past where I feel like I’ve ‘rushed to conclusions’ about wanting to get rid of Kevin Colbert, but then gone on to believe that was foolishness. However, this time, it feels different. I am as satisfied as we as Steeler fans can be in regards to our 8-8 season. We’ve had a lot of injuries, we’ve had a lot of setbacks, and quite frankly, our team just hasn’t performed. But I have to really begin questioning some of the picks Colbert has made. I’m not yet ready to slap the ‘bust’ label on Ziggy Hood, Cameron Hayward, Steven Sylvester, Jason Worilds, Curtis Brown, & Ryan Mundy and the jury is definitely still out on Ta’amu, but let’s face it, there are a lot of guys no longer on the roster, such as Limas Sweed and Dennis Dixon that didn’t pan out.

Heyward and Hood have not been productive this season, Curtis Brown, a guy I really still think has some potential, doesn’t seem to have near the potential I thought he did when he was drafted (I was ecstatic that we drafted him). Ryan Mundy is mediocre at best, a career backup, and while I said I wasn’t ready to call Sylvester or Worilds a bust..I don’t think they have done anything that I’d say is enough for new contracts. Then you get into guys like Santonio Holmes, Plaxico Burress, even Rashard Mendenhall, who have not been kept due to character issues or have fallen flat on their face in terms of production. Woodley even has people questioning his validity right now; I think it’s a weight issue, he looked fat to me this season to be honest. I like, don’t love, Cortez Allen and Kellen Lewis. I think they did a real nice job but I also think it wouldn’t be too difficult to draft a guy that could start over both of them, if drafted in the first round.

There have definitely been ‘gems’; Heath Miller, Troy Polamalu, Ben Roethlisberger, Ike Taylor, Maurkice Pouncey, Lawrence Timmons, but the jury is also still out on DeCastro, Adams, Redman, and Dwyer. I do believe Adams and DeCastro will pan out and I hope Redman and/or Dwyer do but I can’t say I’m greatly confident. The last TE we drafted (prior to Paulson) was Spaethe…how’d that work out? We drafted a Punter that didn’t work out, we’ve drafted numerous offensive linemen in deeper rounds and very few of them are anywhere to be found.

My point is that it’s easier to find guys who Colbert completely missed on than it is to find guys that we can say, honestly, he really hit the nail on the head with at this point. Do you think that perhaps the time is growing near where we have to get rid of Kevin Colbert and bring in ‘Fresh Blood’?

Darkstorm05
01-07-2013, 01:08 PM
You have to look at the odds. If you go into the draft counting on your 1st round pick to be a starter by the end of season 1, and your 2nd rounder to start during season 2, then you made out well. 3rd round and later are just warm bodies half the time. There are charts out there with odds, but after like the 4th you're looking at a huge percentage favoring a bust.

Of those guys you mention...Hood, Heyward...they would likely be starting right now on almost any other team in the league. Guys like Spaeth, Dwyer, and Redman...later round/undrafted guys, and they've performed about as expected...career backups. Sure, you can grab punters and kickers in late rounds and get a star, but if you want a guy you can bet the farm on to start day 1 at a skill position, you better be high in the 1st round.

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-07-2013, 02:58 PM
Do you really think the draft is all the picks of Kevin Colbert?? Not on the Scouts that do all the background workup and interviews with prospect highschool, college coaches. Not the Steeler position coaches that goto the Senior Bowl, Shrine Game, Personal workouts, Pro days?? Not on the head coach and coordinators that advocate for certain players that can help in their system?

Tons of work is done before anybody gets selected on draft day. That being said, Kevin Colbert and the staff he works with is one of the NFL's top 10 or better when it comes to building thru the draft.

OX1947
01-07-2013, 03:22 PM
Steelers havent had a bust in the first round since Troy Edwards in 1999. Id say he has done pretty well.

wwhickok
01-07-2013, 03:26 PM
To answer you Jackson, thats a fair question/statement. I agree with it 100%. As for thr "no bust since troy edwards" the jury imo is still out on heywards and hood. But I was posing a question, not necessarily speakimg to my opinion however i do think something needs to change. Perhaps that something is our 'scouting dept'.

steelfury02
01-07-2013, 03:29 PM
I completely understand what you are saying - and I applaud you for your high expectations as any Steeler fan would have

As a Steeler fan, and based on recent history - I think it is reasonable to expect someone selected within the first 3 rounds to contribute within the first couple of seasons. Of course, there are a ton of variables to factor in along with that general expectation.

What position are they being drafted for v. what the team needs are and who is already at that position and what is already being produced at that position? Is this a draft pick for an immediate need, long term need that you have confidence will grow into what you want them to be over time, or someone you know needs a little work on and then should be ready to step up or a project guy that is a bit of a gamble?

Then, there are other variables to throw in when measuring player versus player, and what you wanted to see more to fit your need. OR - do you throw a lot of this out the window when a high prospect falls in your lap and is too good to pass up regardless of their position and the situation you already have at it? and is available without giving too much in return (trading up or down) ?

You hope your Rd 1 pick can contribute right away. You have a 50/50 shot of getting Rd 1 capabilities in the 2nd round, have someone who might just need some time in your system or tweaking in Rd 3 and so on or, you have some bottom of the barrel picks left over, don't expect much, and might take a risk on something you don't really need as a pet project in the later rounds. Or, maybe you are feeling pretty good about taking a gamble, and like what you saw out of someone for your team, regardless of what other people think.

A SHIT TON OF THOUGHT.

wwhickok
01-07-2013, 03:36 PM
I like it steelfury, good post and I definitely can't disagree with you.

GMU Steeler
01-07-2013, 03:41 PM
He's good at what he does.Very good at first round picks. If you look at his record compared to others, you'll see that he's done his job by and large. That's not to say that I agree with every decision he's made- Worillds over Sean Lee still grates me but sometimes he knocks it out of the park e.g. Antonio Brown and it looks like Cortez Allen could be someone like that too. He's also good at finding UDFAs. Willie Parker, James Harrison.

teegre
01-07-2013, 04:14 PM
My friends and I have always joked that Colbert is good in R1 and then with undrafted rookie free agents... but, terrible in R2-R7. Ergo, we have often suggested that Colbert tradeh his R2-R7 picks for an extra R1 pick.

BUT... recently, he has done really well in R2-R7, but only "decently" in R1.

2003 - 2006
Troy, BB, Heath, & Santonio were home runs... four years in a row. The rest of those drafts were horrible, with one great pick sprinkled in the later rounds of each draft: Ike Taylor in R4, Max Starks in R3, Chris Kemoeatu in R5, & Willie Colon in R4. That is it. Two players from each of those drafts... albeit, two rock-solid players.

2007
Then, there was the 2007 draft. Ugh. Spinny is not a bust, but he is not Ray Rice either. And, the rest of that draft was horrid (even though, at the time, it looked extremely promising).

2008-2011
Like I said, he has done decently with his mid-round picks... but, only one home run in the first round: Pouncey.

Timmons, Hood, Heyward are not the greatest... but, they are not the worst picks. With Timmons, missing out on Revis (or Willis) taints that pick, because honestly, no one after him was much better. Hood has been good, but he is compared with Aaron Smith. And, Heyward has not started yet (the jury's still out).

What these drafts had was a lot of really good mid-round picks: Mike Wallace, Keenan Lewis, Jason Worilds, Emmanual Sanders, Stevenosn Sylvester, Jonothan Dwyer, Antonio Brown, Marcus Gilbert, Cortez Allen, Chris Carter, Baron Batch.

[Note: 2012... too early to tell.]

The 2002 draft was mentioned (on NFL Films) as ebing the draft that set up Pittsburgh's 2005 SuperBowl victory: Antwaan Randle-El, Chris Hope, Larry Foote, & Brett Keisel.

I like the 2010 & the 2011 (and IMO, the 2012) drafts as being just as good.

SUMMATION:
Considering the strength of the 2010, 2011, & 2012 drafts, I would say that the Steelers are about to get young & good... and go on a run of three straight SuperBowls.

People will say that that is blind Homer-ism, but look at this roster on offense: they are loaded with WRs, have a young O-line that could be "special" in a year or so, and they have BB. The defense is & always will be dominant (Cortez & Keenan are going to be a tandem to reckon with). AND, the rest of the AFC is weakening. I look at the list of players from the past three drafts, and I honestly see a juggernaut ebing formed in Pittsburgh.

steelfury02
01-07-2013, 04:18 PM
My friends and I have always joked that Colbert is good in R1 and then with undrafted rookie free agents... but, terrible in R2-R7. Ergo, we have often suggested that Colbert tradeh his R2-R7 picks for an extra R1 pick.

BUT... recently, he has done really well in R2-R7, but only "decently" in R1.

2003 - 2006
Troy, BB, Heath, & Santonio were home runs... four years in a row. The rest of those drafts were horrible, with one great pick sprinkled in the later rounds of each draft: Ike Taylor in R4, Max Starks in R3, Chris Kemoeatu in R5, & Willie Colon in R4. That is it. Two players from each of those drafts... albeit, two rock-solid players.

2007
Then, there was the 2007 draft. Ugh. Spinny is not a bust, but he is not Ray Rice either. And, the rest of that draft was horrid (even though, at the time, it looked extremely promising).

2008-2011
Like I said, he has done decently with his mid-round picks... but, only one home run in the first round: Pouncey.

Timmons, Hood, Heyward are not the greatest... but, they are not the worst picks. With Timmons, missing out on Revis (or Willis) taints that pick, because honestly, no one after him was much better. Hood has been good, but he is compared with Aaron Smith. And, Heyward has not started yet (the jury's still out).

What these drafts had was a lot of really good mid-round picks: Mike Wallace, Keenan Lewis, Jason Worilds, Emmanual Sanders, Stevenosn Sylvester, Jonothan Dwyer, Antonio Brown, Marcus Gilbert, Cortez Allen, Chris Carter, Baron Batch.

[Note: 2012... too early to tell.]

The 2002 draft was mentioned (on NFL Films) as ebing the draft that set up Pittsburgh's 2005 SuperBowl victory: Antwaan Randle-El, Chris Hope, Larry Foote, & Brett Keisel.

I like the 2010 & the 2011 (and IMO, the 2012) drafts as being just as good.

SUMMATION:
Considering the strength of the 2010, 2011, & 2012 drafts, I would say that the Steelers are about to get young & good... and go on a run of three straight SuperBowls.

People will say that that is blind Homer-ism, but look at this roster on offense: they are loaded with WRs, have a young O-line that could be "special" in a year or so, and they have BB. The defense is & always will be dominant (Cortez & Keenan are going to be a tandem to reckon with). AND, the rest of the AFC is weakening. I look at the list of players from the past three drafts, and I honestly see a juggernaut ebing formed in Pittsburgh.

I will mark you down as the first person to say we might have a juggernaut on our hands- I hope you're right!

torpedoshell31
01-07-2013, 04:28 PM
I agree that the drafting of Santonio Holmes wasn't a bust. I know he wasn't around long with his off the field problems, but that one drive and one catch against the Cards in the Super Bowl made the selection of him worth while. If wasn't for that draft pick we would still have 5 Lombardi's instead of 6. We really missed him on the last drive against the Packers in Super Bowl 45, Ben's go to guy on that last drive was Wallace, who was never a receiver who will come back for the ball or battle a defender for the pass like Holmes.

austinfrench76
01-07-2013, 04:30 PM
I think Colbert is fine. We have missed on a ton of 2nd rounders, which seems weird but the 1st rounders have mostly been hits. Also, remember that we pick at the back end of teh 1st round most of the time so it's not like we are looking for starters. The Worilds pick, although not a bust, was definitely unwarranted. We had many more pressing needs and that was a reach. We didn't miss out on Revis, the Jets had the pick in front of us and grabbed him.

steelfury02
01-07-2013, 04:32 PM
I agree that the drafting of Santonio Holmes wasn't a bust. I know he wasn't around long with his off the field problems, but that one drive and one catch against the Cards in the Super Bowl made the selection of him worth while. If wasn't for that draft pick we would still have 5 Lombardi's instead of 6. We really missed him on the last drive against the Packers in Super Bowl 45, Ben's go to guy on that last drive was Wallace, who was never a receiver who will come back for the ball or battle a defender for the pass like Holmes.

battle for the pass and possession seem to be an extremely undervalued commodity in a receiver - speed isn't enough - while I don't want to rely on Ben's improv alone, it wouldn't hurt for him to have a backup plan with one of them, on the fly, and could get into that type of rhythm he and Holmes seemd to have had - can't teach it though!

pete74
01-07-2013, 04:32 PM
He's good at what he does.Very good at first round picks. If you look at his record compared to others, you'll see that he's done his job by and large. That's not to say that I agree with every decision he's made- Worillds over Sean Lee still grates me but sometimes he knocks it out of the park e.g. Antonio Brown and it looks like Cortez Allen could be someone like that too. He's also good at finding UDFAs. Willie Parker, James Harrison.

I'm not knocking Colbert because I really like him but every team in the NFL finds late round gems and un drafted players who excel. Foster and Brady lead that list. Colbert has been dead on in the 1st round until we decided to draft hood and Heyward. I still don't understand why we took them. They may turn into really good players but the way we use our ends a 1st rounder just isn't needed on them. We don't need super athletic players. Smith and Keisel were both later picks who went super athletic and they held our line for years.
I just never really understood the picks at the time and still don't. Unless were letting our ends get up the field like Houston does then there is no use going after guys considered first round material.
I don't know, that's just how I feel. Maybe I'm wrong but that's the way I look at it. I would of rather of taken.

Du'Quan Bowers and Ray Mauaula or Paul Krueger who were both drafted after Hood and Heyward

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-07-2013, 04:55 PM
Again, everybody bitches about Ziggy Hood maybe being a bust, but in the same draft the Steelers took Mike Wallace, Keenan Lewis and Kraig Urbik in the 3rd round. Should really be 4 starters with the first 4 picks.

No credit given for finding great players with late 3rd round picks, but tons of criticism for finding a solid 2 gap D lineman with the #32 pick.. I dont understand fans of football....that dont understand football. :doh:

pete74
01-07-2013, 04:58 PM
Urbik was a bust for us. We didn't do a good job evaluating him because he is doing well in Buffalo.

steeltheone
01-07-2013, 06:17 PM
My friends and I have always joked that Colbert is good in R1 and then with undrafted rookie free agents... but, terrible in R2-R7. Ergo, we have often suggested that Colbert tradeh his R2-R7 picks for an extra R1 pick.

BUT... recently, he has done really well in R2-R7, but only "decently" in R1.

2003 - 2006
Troy, BB, Heath, & Santonio were home runs... four years in a row. The rest of those drafts were horrible, with one great pick sprinkled in the later rounds of each draft: Ike Taylor in R4, Max Starks in R3, Chris Kemoeatu in R5, & Willie Colon in R4. That is it. Two players from each of those drafts... albeit, two rock-solid players.

2007
Then, there was the 2007 draft. Ugh. Spinny is not a bust, but he is not Ray Rice either. And, the rest of that draft was horrid (even though, at the time, it looked extremely promising).

2008-2011
Like I said, he has done decently with his mid-round picks... but, only one home run in the first round: Pouncey.

Timmons, Hood, Heyward are not the greatest... but, they are not the worst picks. With Timmons, missing out on Revis (or Willis) taints that pick, because honestly, no one after him was much better. Hood has been good, but he is compared with Aaron Smith. And, Heyward has not started yet (the jury's still out).

What these drafts had was a lot of really good mid-round picks: Mike Wallace, Keenan Lewis, Jason Worilds, Emmanual Sanders, Stevenosn Sylvester, Jonothan Dwyer, Antonio Brown, Marcus Gilbert, Cortez Allen, Chris Carter, Baron Batch.

[Note: 2012... too early to tell.]

The 2002 draft was mentioned (on NFL Films) as ebing the draft that set up Pittsburgh's 2005 SuperBowl victory: Antwaan Randle-El, Chris Hope, Larry Foote, & Brett Keisel.

I like the 2010 & the 2011 (and IMO, the 2012) drafts as being just as good.

SUMMATION:
Considering the strength of the 2010, 2011, & 2012 drafts, I would say that the Steelers are about to get young & good... and go on a run of three straight SuperBowls.

People will say that that is blind Homer-ism, but look at this roster on offense: they are loaded with WRs, have a young O-line that could be "special" in a year or so, and they have BB. The defense is & always will be dominant (Cortez & Keenan are going to be a tandem to reckon with). AND, the rest of the AFC is weakening. I look at the list of players from the past three drafts, and I honestly see a juggernaut ebing formed in Pittsburgh. Loaded with wideouts? Wallace is gone and AB is a question mark number 2, Sanders can be replaced easily.

steeltheone
01-07-2013, 06:23 PM
Again, everybody bitches about Ziggy Hood maybe being a bust, but in the same draft the Steelers took Mike Wallace, Keenan Lewis and Kraig Urbik in the 3rd round. Should really be 4 starters with the first 4 picks.

No credit given for finding great players with late 3rd round picks, but tons of criticism for finding a solid 2 gap D lineman with the #32 pick.. I dont understand fans of football....that dont understand football. :doh:

Ziggy is not a bust!

GMU Steeler
01-07-2013, 06:34 PM
I'm not knocking Colbert because I really like him but every team in the NFL finds late round gems and un drafted players who excel. Foster and Brady lead that list. Colbert has been dead on in the 1st round until we decided to draft hood and Heyward. I still don't understand why we took them. They may turn into really good players but the way we use our ends a 1st rounder just isn't needed on them. We don't need super athletic players. Smith and Keisel were both later picks who went super athletic and they held our line for years.
I just never really understood the picks at the time and still don't. Unless were letting our ends get up the field like Houston does then there is no use going after guys considered first round material.
I don't know, that's just how I feel. Maybe I'm wrong but that's the way I look at it. I would of rather of taken.

Du'Quan Bowers and Ray Mauaula or Paul Krueger who were both drafted after Hood and Heyward

Never said or implied that you were knocking him. Agree with your pov about the ends but do remember when we drafted Smith and Keisel in the late 90's/early 00's it was a lot easier to find guys who positioned well as 3-4 ends later because the 4-3 was more common those days than it is now. Anyhow, I think we go defense first round next year. We seem to alternate D to O from one year to the next. That could be sheer coincidence though. Not sure who we all were looking at in 2009 and 2011 respectively with the first pick. I know a lot of people wanted a corner in 2011. Think the name I saw mentioned most was BSU's Kyle Wilson who hasn't done much with the Jets.

teegre
01-07-2013, 06:44 PM
We didn't miss out on Revis, the Jets had the pick in front of us and grabbed him.

That's what I was talking about: the NYJets snatched him from the Steelers... and, thus, people have talked about "not getting Revis" for years. It's not Timmons' fault that he is not Revis, but people always compare him to Revis (as well as comparing him to Patrick Willis, who was in that same draft).

Make sense?

Furthermore, my point was that after Timmons was drafted, the rest of R1 was not any better. That draft was great at the top (Joe Thomas, AP, Willis, Revis)... and then just dropped off of a cliff after the 14th pick. Timmons was in that second tier... and, Colbert chose the best of that tier. As in: there really wasn't anyone "better" than Timmons; he was the BAP. It happens in drafts (a drop-off in talent).

Make sense?

teegre
01-07-2013, 06:46 PM
Again, everybody bitches about Ziggy Hood maybe being a bust

I think people compare him to Aaron Smith... which is akin to comparing the Eagles' current DEs to Reggie White & then complaining about them.

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-07-2013, 06:47 PM
Urbik was a bust for us. We didn't do a good job evaluating him because he is doing well in Buffalo.

Not me. I had him as a guy that will last 10 years in the NFL and hopefully with the Steelers. We didnt even give Urbik 24 months on the team, but gave Tony Hills 4 years. Below is my posting from 2009.... (man was I wrong on Duke Robinson and Trevor Canfield)


I like Urbik. When I saw him play in reg season I thought he was a big strong mauler with a nasty streak....but he didnt look to have quick feet to pull and trap. After watching him in the Senior Bowl week of practice he showed good agility.

I honestly think Urbik is behind Mack, Robinson, Wood, Cantwell and Tyronne Green. I can see Urbik probably going in the 3rd round, but could move up if there is a run on guards.http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=33202&highlight=urbik

Ziggy is not a bust!
I dont think he is either. We needed a D lineman at #32 and got one that year. Everybody thinks if you draft a 1st rounder, he better be a pro bowler every year.

teegre
01-07-2013, 06:49 PM
Loaded with wideouts? Wallace is gone and AB is a question mark number 2, Sanders can be replaced easily.

Yes, we know that you do not like AB.

For a 6th round pick, I'd say the kid is pretty good. I also thought that Wallace was a good pick (although, he could be gone... or, franchised). And, I am not ruling out Sanders after just three seasons (Hines Ward was considered a bust early on, and hence, they drafted Troy Edwards & Plaxico Burress in back-to-back years). Add in Cotcherty, and I think that this is a very skilled WR corps.

Blackout
01-07-2013, 07:01 PM
I thought Tomlin played just as big as a role in drafting as Colbert does.

Colbert is probably one of the best GM's in the NFL, and it would be a mistake to let him go. From what I understand, he has a lot of power to make decisions for the Steelers. Obviously the Rooneys trust him to make the best decisions.

If you were to get rid of Colbert, who are you going to replace him with? Drafting is always a gamble, some star players in college pan out in the pros, others do not. Is it the fault of the GM is those don't pan out?

But I think Colbert has done a pretty great job on getting talent, although sometimes not always the "best available", but for the most part we should be thankful of his decisions.

teegre
01-07-2013, 07:07 PM
I thought Tomlin played just as big as a role in drafting as Colbert does.

Colbert is probably one of the best GM's in the NFL, and it would be a mistake to let him go. From what I understand, he has a lot of power to make decisions for the Steelers. Obviously the Rooneys trust him to make the best decisions.

If you were to get rid of Colbert, who are you going to replace him with? Drafting is always a gamble, some star players in college pan out in the pros, others do not. Is it the fault of the GM is those don't pan out?

But I think Colbert has done a pretty great job on getting talent, although sometimes not always the "best available", but for the most part we should be thankful of his decisions.

To clarify:
Colbert is going nowhere. He will retire in a few years... and then...

To answer your question of "Who?":
Omar Khan.

Khan has been offered other GM jobs, but has turned them down, because he will take over as the GM for the Steelers (which just happens to be one of the top jobs in ALL of sports).

Millers the sh!t
01-07-2013, 09:55 PM
I think he is good but way overrated on this board. He seems to have slipped a bit in recent years and missed out on a lot of great opportunities. Besides M.Pouncey, Colbert hasn't had any recent stud draft picks. I'm still looking to see how DeCastro pans out but I have a bad feeling he will be a dud. Like a lot of Roethlisburger fans, I believe the Colbert fans are living in the not so far past. Can't see what is in store for us this year's draft.

SteelersCanada
01-07-2013, 10:00 PM
Guys, listen to Teegre. Khan is going to be the next GM of the Steelers. He would've left a long, long time ago unless, ya know, he got the idea from somewhere that he would become the GM of the Steelers. He deserves the job, too. With the magic he's worked with our cap situation, he should be nicknamed Houdini.

wwhickok
01-08-2013, 07:43 AM
Steelers win AFC North next 2 seasons in a row.

VaDave
01-08-2013, 08:31 AM
RE: Hood

While I'll agree that it maybe unreasonable to expect Hood to play at the same level as A.Smith, but for a guy as big and as strong as he's supposed to be, one would like to see him not getting trucked like he's on skates as often as he does, especially against zone blocking schemes. Of course playing next to Mr. Softy at OLB isn't making him look any too good.....