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maddog78
01-10-2013, 08:10 AM
I alluded to this in another thread and want to expound on the point.

Anyway, the Steelers play scared football on both sides of the ball. This has been going on since Cowher and Tomlin has carried the torch.

On offense, get any kind of lead and they pull the plug on offense and go into kill the clock mode. Even when they don't, they play to run and control the clock.

On defense, it's contain, keep everything in front of you, tackle the catch. How many times did we see an opponent pinned inside the five only to turn field position around? Thad Freaking Lewis did it with the Browns in the finale.

The result is a defense that doesn't get sacks or turnovers, which kill drives and set up good field position, and an offense that seems to max out at around 24 points on their best days.

That means every Sunday, no matter the opponent, the game will be in reach in the 4th quarter. In close games, a play or two here or there turns them. Enough of them turn the wrong way, and you're 8-8 instead of 12-4.

This philosophy emanates from the head coach down to the players. With Cowher it was "there's a fine line between winning and losing". With Tomlin, you "have to make significant plays at significant times". He said after the season that the reason dominant teams are dominant is because they find a way to win close games, and the Steelers couldn't do that this year.

A little research found that claim to be bogus. The Steelers won a grand total of 3 games by more than one score, i.e. 9 or more points, none by more than 17. The top three playoff seeds in each conference won no less than 6, some won 9 or 10, often times by 20 or more. They don't pucker up hoping to run out the clock in the 2nd half, they continue to attack and bury teams.

Maybe next year the breaks will go our way and we'll win those close games, but if they don't, Tomlin may be on a very short leash in 2014.

MACH1
01-10-2013, 08:33 AM
Flush it down

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dGS5HvA_v4A/Tsz-RrQotNI/AAAAAAAAAy8/mbjqNo5z7LY/s1600/Picture+016.gif

eafratitpm3
01-10-2013, 10:17 AM
I agree with this thread to some degree, only because this past year's team really never got leads, they always had to come from behind. They definately had a lacksidasical (?spelling) attitude in all phases of the game. I put that on the players themselves, at some point you have to take ownership and pride in your work and I didn't think as a man the majority of these guys put that effort forward. I have to give it to two teams this year as much as I hate to admit it. The Patriots & Broncos, these teams know how to bury other teams. They keep their foot on the gas until your will is broken.
I wish the NFL would do like the PGA Tour does, your earnings are based on your play. You don't play well, you don't earn very much money. If that was the case, there would be many 2012 Steelers on the soup line. It really amazes me how much money these guys makes and how entitled most of them think they are. They think just because they are wearing a Steelers uniform they just have to show up. Until this attitude is changed this Team and Organization will continue to be mediocre at best! Steeler Nation deserves better!

Twentyvalve
01-10-2013, 10:29 AM
I agree. Their soft defense does not force mistakes. The other teams seem to just make the occasional mistake as a result of statistics, not through forced error. While on the other side of the ball the opponent is trying to force mistakes.

To make big plays you need to take big chances. On both sides of the ball. You can't allow the other team to force mistakes while having a predictable low-risk offense. At the same time you can't sit back and wait for the other team to make mistakes. You won't win many games that way.

Take Chances=Big Plays.

GoFor7
01-10-2013, 10:37 AM
I swear to God maddog78 is not my second username!!!!!!!!! :wink02:

I would add one more thing to the original post. It seemed like after one of the few times the Steelers defense did force a turnover, the offense never went for the kill shot.

In Denver, the defense recovered a fumble early in the first half in Denver territory. What did the offense do? Run, run, sack, punt. How about after the first Allen interception in the Bengals game? Run, run, sack, punt.

The Steelers never drove the dagger into the other team when they had a chance. Why? As was alluded to, they were playing scared. "Oh no! Ben could get hurt if he throws!" "Oh no! If we score quickly the defense won't be as rested!" "Oh no! The owner might not like that play!"

Do any of the teams in the playoffs right now play like that? Do those teams fret over that stuff? There's only one team in the playoffs that is in the top 5 of the NFL in time of possession - Houston. Maybe next season the Steelers should trade some possession time for some points. It may very well be the difference between playoffs or no playoffs.

desertsteel
01-10-2013, 10:39 AM
Anyway, the Steelers play scared football on both sides of the ball. This has been going on since Cowher and Tomlin has carried the torch.


You do realize that Cowher's all-time record when leading by more than 10 points at anytime during the game was 102-1-1 don't you?

102-1-1

GoFor7
01-10-2013, 11:45 AM
You do realize that Cowher's all-time record when leading by more than 10 points at anytime during the game was 102-1-1 don't you?

102-1-1

True. But wouldn't you say offenses weren't quite as wide-open during Cowher's tenure?

Also consider Cowher isn't here anymore and the Steelers defense has had some fourth quarter issues for the last three seasons. Playing close to the vest hasn't worked out too well in recent history.

steelfury02
01-10-2013, 11:50 AM
True. But wouldn't you say offenses weren't quite as wide-open during Cowher's tenure?

Also consider Cowher isn't here anymore and the Steelers defense has had some fourth quarter issues for the last three seasons. Playing close to the vest hasn't worked out too well in recent history.

they should let Ben be Ben and score all those points he usually scores.

maddog78
01-10-2013, 12:10 PM
I agree. Their soft defense does not force mistakes. The other teams seem to just make the occasional mistake as a result of statistics, not through forced error. While on the other side of the ball the opponent is trying to force mistakes.

To make big plays you need to take big chances. On both sides of the ball. You can't allow the other team to force mistakes while having a predictable low-risk offense. At the same time you can't sit back and wait for the other team to make mistakes. You won't win many games that way.

Take Chances=Big Plays.

It was refreshing watching the playoffs last week and seeing DBs break on balls and get INTs, DBs crash the pocket and knock passes down or sack the QB. Been a long time since we've seen either.

Blonde Bomber
01-10-2013, 12:29 PM
they should let Ben be Ben and score all those points he usually scores.

Yes, get rid of that stupid bubble pass, and mix in a few of Haley's dink and dunk plays and he just may have scored them. Maybe a "Halians" or "Arieys" mixture of offense. Although, that means we would need a RB that defenses felt was a threat. We start scoring points and the Defense can come out of prevent.

One good thing about Arians, or was it Whiz, was they were not afraid to go deep on a 1st and the rest of the game.

harrison'samonster
01-10-2013, 12:36 PM
Yes, get rid of that stupid bubble pass, and mix in a few of Haley's dink and dunk plays and he just may have scored them. Maybe a "Halians" or "Arieys" mixture of offense. Although, that means we would need a RB that defenses felt was a threat. We start scoring points and the Defense can come out of prevent.

One good thing about Arians, or was it Whiz, was they were not afraid to go deep on a 1st and the rest of the game.

Absolutely! It doesn't matter if your RB is getting 100 yards a game. The opposing D needs to be forced to respect your running game. I'd like a back who defenses have to worry about even if it isn't a running play.

TRH
01-10-2013, 12:48 PM
i get tired of games in the 4th quarter when we go into the DREADED prevent defensive scheme. Any and all quarterbacks, probably hot dog vendors too if they would let them come out on the field and play, lead the opposing team right down the field to score - almost without fail.
We get burned on this more than anybody. I hate it.

And i agree - on offense - how many times do we have a 3 or 7 point lead - only to go 3 and out? Or similar to punt when it doesn't even appear we're trying to get first downs.
So what happens? The other teams get the ball back quickly - and do just what i wrote in the above paragraph. It happens SO much it feels like its nearly every single game.

teegre
01-10-2013, 12:56 PM
You do realize that Cowher's all-time record when leading by more than 10 points at anytime during the game was 102-1-1 don't you?

102-1-1

Yea... but... uh... there was that one loss. So... obviously, it doesn't work.

steelfury02
01-10-2013, 01:04 PM
Yes, get rid of that stupid bubble pass, and mix in a few of Haley's dink and dunk plays and he just may have scored them. Maybe a "Halians" or "Arieys" mixture of offense. Although, that means we would need a RB that defenses felt was a threat. We start scoring points and the Defense can come out of prevent.

One good thing about Arians, or was it Whiz, was they were not afraid to go deep on a 1st and the rest of the game.

Truce Halians to the rescue! We need a bit of the dink and dunk, and some aggressive stuff thrown in there as well!

torpedoshell31
01-10-2013, 01:55 PM
I completely agree with the original post. I hate to always use the Patriots as an example, but if their up 28-0 in the second quarter, they don't call off the dogs. They usually go on to win by a score of something like 56-3 and Bilechek is pissed the other team got 3.

maddog78
01-10-2013, 02:04 PM
You do realize that Cowher's all-time record when leading by more than 10 points at anytime during the game was 102-1-1 don't you?

102-1-1

That is a good point about Cowher, and maybe it was unfair to include him since he was usually trying to hide the QB. This current team, however, should be attacking more than it does.

teegre
01-10-2013, 03:00 PM
That is a good point about Cowher, and maybe it was unfair to include him since he was usually trying to hide the QB. This current team, however, should be attacking more than it does.

Actually, I think that mentioning Cowher actually points to two huge factors (that are currently missing):

1) No running game. Cowher had The Bus. The Steelers could close out games better than anyone... via killing the clock.

I remember a game against the Browns, where Bam Morris ran the ball like 13 straight times, taking 6 minutes off of the clock... and the Steelers knelt down on the 6 yard line in victory formation.

Likewise, I rememebr a game agains the Titans, where FWP ran the ball 22 straight times in the fourth quarter, to kill the clock.

This O-line was far too injured to accomlish such feats.

2) No pressure. I remember being up 10 points, and when the prevent defense was put into affect, LeBeau would also unleash Greg Lloyd (or Joey Porter)... and the OLB would always (ALWAYS) get a crucial sack (making it third and looong) or get the strip-sack.

Alas, Harrison was not "Harrison" for the first half of the season (i.e. in the Tennessee & Oakland games). And, Woodley is nearly 320 pounds. In turn, no pressure.

Blacksburg Zach
01-10-2013, 03:55 PM
I hate the prevent defense. All it does is prevent the Steelers from winning as the defense watches has-beens, never-weres, never-will-bes, and other no-name quarterbacks effortlessly complete passes, march right down the field, and eventually score points that have caused the Steelers to lose games. Not only does it make average to downright awful quarterbacks look like future hall of famers, but it also all but guarantees that pressure on the quarterback and turnovers will be exceptionally rare, which allows the average Joe to look like a good quarterback.

torpedoshell31
01-10-2013, 03:58 PM
That is a good point about Cowher, and maybe it was unfair to include him since he was usually trying to hide the QB. This current team, however, should be attacking more than it does.

Indeed Cowher did have to hide our QB's in those situations. Cowher greatest legacy is what QB's he had that went to the playoffs. Brister, O'Donnell, Tomczak, Stewart and Maddox. All of these guys started a playoff game for Cowher. What other coach could take a collection of QB's like this and still go to the playoffs almost every year?

GoFor7
01-10-2013, 04:05 PM
I think bringing up Cowher's accomplishments playing close to the vest is irrelevant because a) Cowher isn't here anymore, and b) offenses have opened up more since then. When this team does it, bad things happen too often.

steelfury02
01-10-2013, 04:30 PM
Actually, I think that mentioning Cowher actually points to two huge factors (that are currently missing):

1) No running game. Cowher had The Bus. The Steelers could close out games better than anyone... via killing the clock.

I remember a game against the Browns, where Bam Morris ran the ball like 13 straight times, taking 6 minutes off of the clock... and the Steelers knelt down on the 6 yard line in victory formation.

Likewise, I rememebr a game agains the Titans, where FWP ran the ball 22 straight times in the fourth quarter, to kill the clock.

This O-line was far too injured to accomlish such feats.

2) No pressure. I remember being up 10 points, and when the prevent defense was put into affect, LeBeau would also unleash Greg Lloyd (or Joey Porter)... and the OLB would always (ALWAYS) get a crucial sack (making it third and looong) or get the strip-sack.

Alas, Harrison was not "Harrison" for the first half of the season (i.e. in the Tennessee & Oakland games). And, Woodley is nearly 320 pounds. In turn, no pressure.

The only pressure Woodley is creating is on his belt buckle.
Woodley: Mmmmm, Belt buuucckle

FrancoLambert
01-10-2013, 05:04 PM
The only pressure Woodley is creating is on his belt buckle.
Woodley: Mmmmm, Belt buuucckle

:applaudit: :sofunny:

Recently saw tape of him on NFL network about 2008 season.
He easily looks 25 pounds heavier now if not more.
He had quickness for a big man...no more.

NSMaster56
01-10-2013, 05:18 PM
Not sure that 'playing scared' is the right term.

More objectively, the Steelers play 'conservative' football for sure and said style does bite them in the arse more often than not.

On one hand, this 'keeps them in' every game and usually avoids blowout losses. However, on the other it keeps them from definitively beating their opponents, too.

Overall, it is frustrating and appears to be a fixable 'problem'.

EDIT: That was a horribly dyslexic attempt at spelling 'definitively'. :doh:

GoFor7
01-10-2013, 05:28 PM
Not sure that 'playing scared' is the right term.

More objectively, the Steelers play 'conservative' football for sure and said style does bite them in the arse more often than not.

On one hand, this 'keeps them in' every game and usually avoids blowout losses. However, on the other it keeps them from definintely beating their opponents, too.

Overall, it is frustrating and appears to be a fixable 'problem'.

It's mostly about their fixation with time of possession. They fear if the offense scores too quickly the defense will suck and they'll be suckered into a shootout. In reality, this close to the vest football has just put more pressure on the defense to keep the team in the game.

Lets look at where the playoff teams rank in TOP:

Houston: 1
Seattle: 4
Denver: 6
San Francisco: 8
Indianapolis: 9 (BOOOO! AIR-HEAD! BOOOOOOO!)
Atlanta: 10
Washington: 11
New England: 12
Green Bay: 13
Cincinnati: 17
Minnesota: 28
Baltimore: 30
Source: http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/average-time-of-possession-net-of-ot

Only 2 of the 12 playoff teams ranked top 5 in time of possession. Obviously, Baltimore and Minnesota are outliers in the opposite direction and most teams that rank that low aren't in the playoffs. But what this would suggest is that if you trade some possession time for some points, being anywhere from 6th to 15th in time of possession isn't the end of the world.

Twentyvalve
01-10-2013, 07:00 PM
Yeap, For this team, a simple sack, an interception, or even a recovery from their own fumble is a monumental achievement. Other teams, even lower tier teams, do those things on a regular basis. Last year I thought it was bad luck. This year I don't think it is luck at all. At any rate, we all just watched Baltimore make their own luck and quite possibly be one of the poorest teams to make the playoffs.

It was refreshing watching the playoffs last week and seeing DBs break on balls and get INTs, DBs crash the pocket and knock passes down or sack the QB. Been a long time since we've seen either.

Steelers5895
01-10-2013, 07:07 PM
i dont think its a mindset or plan, i just think the talent isnt there to blow teams out and because of that, games are close.

if you were able to objectively evaluate the steelers position by position, the only place we may be better than 25 other teams are:

QB
C
S

again, i said objectively. there are probably 25 teams with a better 1 & 2 rb, 20 teams with better 1 & 2 wrs, 10-12 better TE, 20+ better tackles, 20+ better Guards, on and on and on

Fire Haley
01-10-2013, 08:07 PM
The defense has always played soft when trying to cover up for CB weakness for the last decade, that's nothing new.

Ben's aorta spooked the team and him, for sure. You could tell he played different after he got hurt.

The wife was probably changing his insurance policy, I could see how that would affect his game.

teegre
01-10-2013, 09:14 PM
The wife was probably changing his insurance policy, I could see how that would affect his game.

Dude, I have no idea what you're talking about. My life has not changed one bit since I got married. Oh crap... the "honey-do" alarm sounded... gotta go.

NSMaster56
01-10-2013, 10:19 PM
It's mostly about their fixation with time of possession. They fear if the offense scores too quickly the defense will suck and they'll be suckered into a shootout. In reality, this close to the vest football has just put more pressure on the defense to keep the team in the game.
...

Only 2 of the 12 playoff teams ranked top 5 in time of possession. Obviously, Baltimore and Minnesota are outliers in the opposite direction and most teams that rank that low aren't in the playoffs. But what this would suggest is that if you trade some possession time for some points, being anywhere from 6th to 15th in time of possession isn't the end of the world.

Very true and well said.

The T.O.P. fetish is preventing them from maturing as an offense.

BowCatShot
01-10-2013, 11:29 PM
Keep in mind another factor to consider. The NFL and the tv networks love close games. That's what keeps the viewers glued to the tv watching those commercials that pay for the whole shebang. Regardless of what some other teams do, the Steelers are playing ball [sic] with the powers that be.

austinfrench76
01-10-2013, 11:43 PM
When you have a top ranked defense and a lead, you run the ball to kill the clock and play good defense. I don't think its playing scared I believe it's playing smart. IMO.

VaDave
01-11-2013, 07:08 AM
I agree this years defense was less than steller early on. We had mix and match going on in the secondary for the first 3 games. Coupled with Woodley and his 45 extra pounds lounging out there at the hash marks, Harrison with a bum knee on the other side, and a couple of soft served defensive linemen in Hampton and Hood, this had all the makings of horror show in action

Well, we fixed the secondary issues and as a unit they were solid until Taylor got hurt. Harrison play did improve significantly the last 3-4 games, but make no mistake, he is not the all-pro defensive player of the year we had a few years ago. Woodley played his season like he is very much interested in staying healthy to insure collecting the rest of his $65 milion dollar contract.

AS for the DL, Hood just doesn't have the instincts to play that DE position. He is too mechanical, and has no creativity when it comes to moves. I can just hear what's going on in his head on a play, " Ok at the snap, up, land punch, ok that;s done, two steps to the left, punch, lean forward.... meanwhile, he's now 5 yards off the lol and the runner is past him. As a pass rusher he is passable, as a run defender, especially against zone blocking schemes, he's a liability. With Casey, he gave it all he had, all 380lbs of it, unfortunately at his age, you can still get shoved of your spot even with an extra 40 lbs you're sporting.

Amazingly, with all of this crap going on, we STILL end up with a top D. It's nothing short of incredible, and a testament to LeBeau's system.

It's no wonder we didn't have the take aways. No wonder why we could hold teams in their own end. The front seven pressure on the line of scrimage just was not there, especially from our two outside linebackers. With Harrison, it's understandable. With Woodley, it's inexcusable. Why McClendon wasn't playing, and how Hood is still in the starting lineup is beyond me.

SteeleReign
01-11-2013, 07:45 AM
I agree with the poster that said this is nothing more than playing conservatively - not scared. That's old-time Steelers football. I think it's related to the Rooney's mandate that the team get back to "Steelers football." Most Steelers fans over 40 grew up during the Steel Curtain era of bloody knuckles, missing teeth, and bone-rattling defense. And the Cowher days were equally defense & run-the-ball related.

Rooney made it clear that the team would not become an offensive highlight reel as BB would have it, and would return to the mentality of the glory days.

I think that statement has caused a conundrum for game-planning. How do the coaches stay true to the Steelers glory days, while also keeping pace with the new NFL? How does Lebeau coach down his players to keep them from getting game-turning 15-yard personal fouls? How does Arians/Haley coach up his offense to score enough points to outscore their high-octane, Goodell-protected opponents?

Injuries, age, poor coaching, and poor play are all contributors to this 8-8 season, but I contend that it's also related to this idea that the Steelers need to go back to the days of yore. As much as I hate to say it, maybe it's time to open up the offense. Maybe it's time to look at the 4-3, or draft some bump & run corners? Something clearly needs to change in Pittsburgh, not just names on the jerseys, something fundamental.

lipps83
01-11-2013, 08:05 AM
When you have a top ranked defense and a lead, you run the ball to kill the clock and play good defense. I don't think its playing scared I believe it's playing smart. IMO.

That would be the case if they played good defense. They don't.

How many 4th quarter leads did we squander this year?

maddog78
01-11-2013, 08:12 AM
That would be the case if they played good defense. They don't.

How many 4th quarter leads did we squander this year?

Or could run the ball to save their lives.

We're relying on an old philosophy when we have neither a defense nor a running game to close teams out.

wwhickok
01-11-2013, 08:20 AM
Defensively and for that matter I think there were times when their defficienies determined how they played and there were times where it was obvious they were playing as though they knew they had defficiencies and they had to compensate for them. I wouldn't call it scared as much as I would call it skittish or over cautious.

FanSince72
01-11-2013, 08:39 AM
True. But wouldn't you say offenses weren't quite as wide-open during Cowher's tenure?

Also consider Cowher isn't here anymore and the Steelers defense has had some fourth quarter issues for the last three seasons. Playing close to the vest hasn't worked out too well in recent history.

Cowher was worse - the original "Martyball" disciple.

There is an NFL Films clip of a verbal exchange between Ben and Cowher during SB 40 where Ben is walking towards the sidelines and says to Cowher, "Coach let's play to win; let's not play not to lose." And I think that that particular exchange sums up Bill Cowher's approach to the game when things got tight.

After Cowher and with Ben becoming a more mature player, it seemed as if things were easing a bit and the offense became more wide-open and took more risks and even the defense was more aggressive and seemed to try to cause takeaways instead of just trying to keep teams from scoring.

But lately, things seem to have drifted back towards Martyball and there's a strong sense of Deja vu. I don't know if it's philosophy, fear or something else, but I don't like it and it needs to change.

lipps83
01-11-2013, 08:55 AM
Or could run the ball to save their lives.

We're relying on an old philosophy when we have neither a defense nor a running game to close teams out.

Yes. I am not quite sure why some are so enamored by having the top defense in yards allowed, especially when a big reason for that is that we played against some of the worst offenses (Jets, Titans, Chiefs, Browns 2x, Bengals2x, Chargers). And then we couldn't even stop half of them from scoring points, especially when it mattered most.

IMO, the defense was the problem in the first half of the season. They stepped it up when Ben got hurt (nowhere near an elite level however) and the offense was the problem in the 2nd half for the most part, and I feel that was because Ben was still hurt.

I am thankful to Lebeau for everything he has done for this team, but he has been running the same scheme for 30 years. I don't expect him to be going anywhere, so I expect to see the same scheme next year with the same players (since his defense is uber-complicated and rookies sit for 3 years). I would be okay with that if he would actually play the younger guys to their capabilities and bring some aggression back to the defense instead of dropping 7 or 8 into coverage and hoping the offense makes a mistake.

lloydwoodson
01-11-2013, 09:06 AM
Everything perceived as "the Steelers play scared" comes from Coach Tomlin. I will consider your arguments that Tomlin needs to change his philosophy when and if he has a losing season. Until then I think the image of a toilet was an appropriate response to this thread and all subsequent commentary was unnecessary.

VaDave
01-11-2013, 09:58 AM
Yes. I am not quite sure why some are so enamored by having the top defense in yards allowed, especially when a big reason for that is that we played against some of the worst offenses (Jets, Titans, Chiefs, Browns 2x, Bengals2x, Chargers). And then we couldn't even stop half of them from scoring points, especially when it mattered most.

IMO, the defense was the problem in the first half of the season. They stepped it up when Ben got hurt (nowhere near an elite level however) and the offense was the problem in the 2nd half for the most part, and I feel that was because Ben was still hurt.

I am thankful to Lebeau for everything he has done for this team, but he has been running the same scheme for 30 years. I don't expect him to be going anywhere, so I expect to see the same scheme next year with the same players (since his defense is uber-complicated and rookies sit for 3 years). I would be okay with that if he would actually play the younger guys to their capabilities and bring some aggression back to the defense instead of dropping 7 or 8 into coverage and hoping the offense makes a mistake.

Two points, I would like to contend.

A, the Bengals were underated, and B, last year we played 9 out of 16 games against either rookie QBs, or scrub QBs. This years schedule was much tougher than last year.

IMO, historically, his system does work. You may not like his playing the averages approach, and frankly, I would love to see more carnage too, so I get that. But the fact is, it is an effective defense against other team scoring, which I understand the whole point.

GoFor7
01-11-2013, 10:19 AM
When you have a top ranked defense and a lead, you run the ball to kill the clock and play good defense. I don't think its playing scared I believe it's playing smart. IMO.

It's smart in the 4th quarter maybe. But when you get a lead in the second quarter and then try to sit on it for the rest of the game, then yes, it is playing scared.

Cowher was worse - the original "Martyball" disciple.

There is an NFL Films clip of a verbal exchange between Ben and Cowher during SB 40 where Ben is walking towards the sidelines and says to Cowher, "Coach let's play to win; let's not play not to lose." And I think that that particular exchange sums up Bill Cowher's approach to the game when things got tight.

After Cowher and with Ben becoming a more mature player, it seemed as if things were easing a bit and the offense became more wide-open and took more risks and even the defense was more aggressive and seemed to try to cause takeaways instead of just trying to keep teams from scoring.

I give Cowher a little bit of a pass considering offenses weren't as wide open back then as they are today. He did give his fanbase unnecessary heart-attacks at times and I see where you are coming from.

But lately, things seem to have drifted back towards Martyball and there's a strong sense of Deja vu. I don't know if it's philosophy, fear or something else, but I don't like it and it needs to change

Like I said before, the Steelers are scared shitless that if the offense "scores too quickly" then the defense will be ineffective an get suckered into a shootout. If you look back at my post about where the playoff teams rank in time of possession, then it's not unreasonable to think the Steelers can trade some possession time for some points.

desertsteel
01-11-2013, 10:26 AM
Yea... but... uh... there was that one loss. So... obviously, it doesn't work.

LMAO... yeah good point! What was I thinking?!

desertsteel
01-11-2013, 10:31 AM
It's mostly about their fixation with time of possession. They fear if the offense scores too quickly the defense will suck and they'll be suckered into a shootout. In reality, this close to the vest football has just put more pressure on the defense to keep the team in the game.

Lets look at where the playoff teams rank in TOP:

Houston: 1
Seattle: 4
Denver: 6
San Francisco: 8
Indianapolis: 9 (BOOOO! AIR-HEAD! BOOOOOOO!)
Atlanta: 10
Washington: 11
New England: 12
Green Bay: 13
Cincinnati: 17
Minnesota: 28
Baltimore: 30
Source: http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/average-time-of-possession-net-of-ot

Only 2 of the 12 playoff teams ranked top 5 in time of possession. Obviously, Baltimore and Minnesota are outliers in the opposite direction and most teams that rank that low aren't in the playoffs. But what this would suggest is that if you trade some possession time for some points, being anywhere from 6th to 15th in time of possession isn't the end of the world.

I don't know, I think your stats prove that TOP is important. 9 out of the 12 playoff teams finished in the top 13 in TOP. Only 3 were in the bottom half of the league and 1 of those just barely (bengals at 17).

I do agree, however, that the Steelers are too preoccupied with TOP. I would rather it be situational, like when we have the lead in the 4th quarter.

harrison'samonster
01-11-2013, 10:36 AM
I don't know, I think your stats prove that TOP is important. 9 out of the 12 playoff teams finished in the top 13 in TOP. Only 3 were in the bottom half of the league and 1 of those just barely (bengals at 17).

I do agree, however, that the Steelers are too preoccupied with TOP. I would rather it be situational, like when we have the lead in the 4th quarter.

I absolutely agree with your point about holding onto the ball in the 4th qtr. TOP also might be a result of trying to be more balanced on offense. That is crucial to offensive success in the long run, nobody wants to become one-sided.

GoFor7
01-11-2013, 12:30 PM
I don't know, I think your stats prove that TOP is important. 9 out of the 12 playoff teams finished in the top 13 in TOP. Only 3 were in the bottom half of the league and 1 of those just barely (bengals at 17).

I do agree, however, that the Steelers are too preoccupied with TOP. I would rather it be situational, like when we have the lead in the 4th quarter.

I did point out teams on the opposite side of the spectrum like Baltimore and Minnesota are rare to make the playoffs. The point is, like you said, the Steelers are too preoccupied with TOP. Being top 5 in TOP is not important. If the Steelers can trade some possession time for points, then what's wrong with being ranked somewhere between 6th and 15th?

lloydwoodson
01-11-2013, 03:03 PM
I did point out teams on the opposite side of the spectrum like Baltimore and Minnesota are rare to make the playoffs. The point is, like you said, the Steelers are too preoccupied with TOP. Being top 5 in TOP is not important. If the Steelers can trade some possession time for points, then what's wrong with being ranked somewhere between 6th and 15th?

I think you are just as fixated with TOP as Tomlin is. TOP doesn't win games just like TOP doesn't lose games. TOP is a by-product of an offense that stays on the field and a defense that gets off the field.

I don't agree with you on much but I do agree that the offense should be more aggressive early in games and early in downs. What you are seeing is Tomlin's influence. Haley is one of the most aggressive playcallers in the NFL.

"RUTM, RUTM, BEN HELP!" has been around since Arians and continues with Haley- the constant is Tomlin. It is what it is and this will continue to the next offensive coordinator. If you were honest to yourself you would see that Haley trusts Roethlisberger more than Arians did.

NSMaster56
01-11-2013, 03:03 PM
When you have a top ranked defense and a lead, you run the ball to kill the clock and play good defense. I don't think its playing scared I believe it's playing smart. IMO.

Fixed:

When you have a top-ranked D and a >8 point lead then you run the ball, kill the clock and [hope to] play good D.

---

The Steelers, far too often, follow the 'protect the lead' strategy when they hold <7 point lead or even in tie situations.

That's a problem.

teegre
01-11-2013, 03:47 PM
I absolutely agree with your point about holding onto the ball in the 4th qtr. TOP also might be a result of trying to be more balanced on offense. That is crucial to offensive success in the long run, nobody wants to become one-sided.

I heard Trent Dilfer talking about TOP recently... specifically, talking about playing against the Broncos. [I think Dilfer is a great analyst. He watches a LOT of film, and is very savvy about offense.]

Simply, Dilfer said that the best way to stop Peyton Manning is to keep him on the side-lines.

Dilfer pointed specifically to the Steelers-Broncos game from earlier in the season, and said that the Steelers did it right... except, they had to settle for FGs instead of TDs.

Likewise, on a personal level, I do not necessarily need to see drastic changes to this offense. What I would like to see is what Dilfer said: scoring TDs instead of FGs.

I know that some do not like what Haley was doing, but IMO, this offense was on the right track towards that change (TDs instead of FGs). Were they there yet? No. Were they on the right track? Yes. Remember, if BB converts two more third downs, at the end of the Oakland game & the end of Tennessee game, the Steelers would have made them 8-1.

Speaking of third downs, before this season, when trying to convert third down (e.g. 4 yards), I would see BB drop back, and he has a RB open for the first down (5 yards), but BB would routinely throw it 20 yards down field. Now, a lot of those times, we would all cheer the long completion, but not always... sometimes, the ball would fall incomplete, and the drive would stall: no third-down conversion, with a FG... or, worse: no third down, with a sack taking them out of FG range.

For the first nine games (pre-injury), BB was keeping scoring opportunities alive: he had the best third-down conversion rate in the entire league.

Then the injury occurred...

...and, the third downs stopped being converted. In turn, the offense had multiple three-&-outs (and/or drives that ended in FGs as opposed ot TDs).

Like Dilfer said, the thing (maybe the only thing) that the Steelers need to work on is converting third downs in the red-zone, in order to increase their opportunities for scoring FGs (not getting knocked out fo FG range) and/or increase their opportunities for scoring TDs (coverting third downs, as opposed to always going for the TD on every down inside of the 30, in order to get three (or six) more downs to try & score).

GoFor7
01-11-2013, 03:59 PM
Well if Trent Dilfer said it then who am I to argue?

It was sad when he retired, but when you play for that long your arm gets tired after handing off so much.

teegre
01-11-2013, 04:04 PM
Well if Trent Dilfer said it then who am I to argue?

It was sad when he retired, but when you play for that long your arm gets tired after handing off so much.

Dude, do you really think that you know more than Trent Dilfer?
:toofunny:

Trent is the next up & coming guy in ESPN. They all love him, because he us smart & great at analysis. He is the next "Tom Jackson" type of player-turned-analyst. He is "the man."

But... well... he's not you.

harrison'samonster
01-11-2013, 05:28 PM
I think Dilfer is a good analyst as well. Not as good as Merril Hoge, who deserves his own show.

Not only would I like to see them turn the FG's into TDs, but like you say when we get close to FG range it would be nice to see us end up getting a field goal, and not pushed back to the 50.

teegre
01-11-2013, 06:00 PM
I think Dilfer is a good analyst as well. Not as good as Merril Hoge, who deserves his own show.

Not only would I like to see them turn the FG's into TDs, but like you say when we get close to FG range it would be nice to see us end up getting a field goal, and not pushed back to the 50.

I agree 100% with this post.

I might be biased (in junior high, I made a line-drawing, in permanent black ink, of Meril Hoge... which is still on the wall at my parents' house), but Meril Hoge definitely needs his own show. The dude is money.

FGs turning into TDs is always nice, but like you said, I'd settle for not getting pushed out of FG range (once already inside of it). That alone would easily be 3 more points per game (which is huge/the difference between a few of the losses this season).

GoFor7
01-12-2013, 09:08 PM
Denver TOP: 40:06
Baltimore TOP: 36:36

Edman
01-12-2013, 09:37 PM
Denver TOP: 40:06
Baltimore TOP: 36:36

Denver Defense surrenders over 500 yards of offense and Peyton Manning throws a game-losing INT, just as Ben Roethlisberger did weeks ago.

TOP works wonders...when your Defense isn't shit and you have competent QB play. The Broncos are stupid for not unleashing Manning. The Steelers are smart for leashing Ben.

Denver and New England have to score, because their Defenses suck. When they can't score, they're up shit creek.

Pittsburgh has to play top-line Defense, because their QB can't put up points. When the Defense sucks, the Steelers are dead in the water.

GoFor7
01-12-2013, 10:20 PM
Denver Defense surrenders over 500 yards of offense and Peyton Manning throws a game-losing INT, just as Ben Roethlisberger did weeks ago.

Which proves TOP isn't king anymore.

TOP works wonders...when your Defense isn't shit and you have competent QB play. The Broncos are stupid for not unleashing Manning. The Steelers are smart for leashing Ben.

Yep, the Steelers leashed Ben. That resulted in 8-8.

Denver and New England have to score, because their Defenses suck. When they can't score, they're up shit creek.

Actually, Denver had the #2 defense. New England's defense may not rank highly in yards allowed, but they get turnovers. The Pats D is an impact D, the Steelers defense is a stat defense. Even your god Artie admitted such.

Pittsburgh has to play top-line Defense, because their QB can't put up points. When the Defense sucks, the Steelers are dead in the water.

The Steelers handcuff Ben until the last 2 mins, then hope he bails them out from their stubbornness. That's not Ben's fault.

Typical yinzer thinking. You should quit while you're ahead and go back to watching old videos of the 90's Steelers not winning anything.

DanRooney
01-12-2013, 10:37 PM
Denver Defense surrenders over 500 yards of offense and Peyton Manning throws a game-losing INT, just as Ben Roethlisberger did weeks ago.

TOP works wonders...when your Defense isn't shit and you have competent QB play. The Broncos are stupid for not unleashing Manning. The Steelers are smart for leashing Ben.

Denver and New England have to score, because their Defenses suck. When they can't score, they're up shit creek.

Pittsburgh has to play top-line Defense, because their QB can't put up points. When the Defense sucks, the Steelers are dead in the water.

Denver's defense sucks?

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&defensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&conference=ALL&role=OPP&season=2012&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=TOTAL_YARDS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-o=1&d-447263-n=1

GoFor7
01-12-2013, 10:42 PM
Denver's defense sucks?

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&defensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&conference=ALL&role=OPP&season=2012&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=TOTAL_YARDS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-o=1&d-447263-n=1

I guess you don't read many of Edman's posts? He's a typical yinzer that just wants to run the QB out of town. Was probably on the Bradshaw hater bandwagon back in the day.

Edman
01-12-2013, 10:47 PM
Denver's defense sucks?

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&defensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&conference=ALL&role=OPP&season=2012&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=TOTAL_YARDS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-o=1&d-447263-n=1

The Denver D is ranked 2nd, but their ranking meant jack today, huh? The Denver Defense shit the bed harder than any Lebeau Defense did.

70 Yard Touchdown pass given up near the end of regulation.

38 Points and 331 yards given up to Flacco.

500 Yards Of Offense by the Ravens.

It sucks.

DanRooney
01-12-2013, 10:49 PM
The Denver D is ranked 2nd, but their Rankings meant jack today, did they? The Denver Defense shit the bed.

70 Yard Touchdown pass given up at the end of regulation.

38 Points and 331 yards given up to Joe Flacco.

500 Yards Of Offense by the Ravens.

It sucks.

The Steelers "#1 defense" meant jack shit today as well.

Manning had his 31st ranked defense carry him to a championship and then his 2 RBs carry him during the SB (yet HE won MVP because he's the media boy). Don't give me his defense sucked. His special teams scored 14 points for him. He's a choke artist. He's been 1 and done 8 times in his career.

Edman
01-12-2013, 10:52 PM
Typical yinzer thinking. You should quit while you're ahead and go back to watching old videos of the 90's Steelers not winning anything.

No thanks, I already had my fill of the 2012 Steelers not winning anything thanks to Ben.

GoFor7
01-12-2013, 10:58 PM
No thanks, I already had my fill of the 2012 Steelers not winning anything thanks to Ben.

So let me get all of this straight:

Ben sucks because he can't bail the Steelers out from Marty ball every time.

Denver's defense ranking #2 doesn't mean anything, but the Steelers defense ranking #1 means it's a great defense.

Hey, even Artie said the defense needs more sacks and turnovers. Is he an Arians lover now?

Really, quit while you're ahead buddy.

Edman
01-12-2013, 11:02 PM
The Steelers "#1 defense" meant jack shit today as well.

Manning had his 31st ranked defense carry him to a championship and then his 2 RBs carry him during the SB (yet HE won MVP because he's the media boy). Don't give me his defense sucked. His special teams scored 14 points for him. He's a choke artist. He's been 1 and done 8 times in his career.

And where would our hero be without Lebeau's Defense to bail him out time and time again?

Manning wins a SB thanks to his Defense = Manning is a Choke Artist.

Ben wins Super Bowls thanks to his Defense = Ben is an Elite Championship Quarterback.

Manning at least does what he can to lead his team to the postseason, even if he eventually sucks. Ben can't do better than 9-7 and 8-8. The Steelers Defense has to go above and beyond to save his ass. They have to play lights out for Ben to even have a chance. Not only do they have to stop the other team, they have to turn the ball over and score as well.

GoFor7
01-12-2013, 11:04 PM
And where would our hero be without Lebeau's Defense to bail him out time and time again?

Manning wins a SB thanks to his Defense = Manning is a Choke Artist.

Ben wins Super Bowls thanks to his Defense = Ben is an Elite Championship Quarterback.

Manning at least does what he can to lead his team to the postseason, even if he eventually sucks. Ben can't do better than 9-7 and 8-8. The Steelers Defense has to go above and beyond to save his ass. They have to play lights out for Ben to even have a chance. Not only do they have to stop the other team, they have to turn the ball over and score as well.

Larry Fitz is still running after catching that pass from Warner....

Edman
01-12-2013, 11:14 PM
So let me get all of this straight:

Ben sucks because he can't bail the Steelers out from Marty ball every time.

Denver's defense ranking #2 doesn't mean anything, but the Steelers defense ranking #1 means it's a great defense.

Hey, even Artie said the defense needs more sacks and turnovers. Is he an Arians lover now?

Really, quit while you're ahead buddy.

No, Ben stunk because he played like hot garbage down the stretch. The Dallas and Cincinnati games will never go away, no matter who you try to scapegoat, deflect, and "Martyball" names and synonyms you throw around.

I said Denver's D sucked ass in this game. It was your buddy who brought out the dumb statistic to prove they didn't suck. Today proved that it didn't even matter.

The Steelers did not have a great defense in 2012, they did however have a solid enough one, more than enough for an "Elite" guy like Ben to do better than 8-8.

Even then, Artie only supports the argument that Ben simply put just isn't good enough to carry the Steelers through the season and to the postseason like the Best QB's can. The Defense has to pick up the slack for him. The Defense isn't good enough, it has to do EVERYTHING.

Maybe if you keep calling me "Yinzer" and throwing more characterizations around like a coward it'll make you stop being wrong.

GoFor7
01-12-2013, 11:27 PM
No, Ben stunk because he played like hot garbage down the stretch. The Dallas and Cincinnati games will never go away, no matter who you try to scapegoat, deflect, and "Martyball" names and synonyms you throw around.

I never said he didn't make bad throws against Dallas or Cincy. My Marty ball criticisms go beyond those two games. Ben spent the first half of the season bailing out Haley on 3rd down. Remember that?

The Steelers try to play the possession game for the first 58 mins, then when that doesn't work, it's BEN HELP!

Let him try and win the game early, then maybe late game dramatics won't be necessary as often.

I said Denver's D sucked ass in this game. It was your buddy who brought out the dumb statistic to prove they didn't suck. Today proved that it didn't even matter.

The Steelers did not have a great defense in 2012, they did however have a solid enough one, more than enough for an "Elite" guy like Ben to do better than 8-8.

Did the #1 ranking for the Steelers defense matter against Denver, Oakland, Tennessee, and San Diego? It was the Stat Curtain. No splash plays until it was too late, just a paper defense.

Even then, Artie only supports the argument that Ben simply put just isn't good enough to carry the Steelers through the season and to the postseason like the Best QB's can. The Defense has to pick up the slack for him. The Defense isn't good enough, it has to do EVERYTHING.

So it's not a defense's job to force turnovers? The offense has to go 80-90 yards every drive and if they don't score then the QB sucks? You really don't get how dumb you sound right now, do you?

Like I said, stat curtain.

Maybe if you keep calling me "Yinzer" and throwing more characterizations around like a coward it'll make you stop being wrong.

Perhaps if you take your head out of the 70's and the Pittsburgh QB hating bandwagon it'll make you stop being wrong.

And Larry Fitz is still running.....

lloydwoodson
01-13-2013, 03:45 AM
Did the #1 ranking for the Steelers defense matter against Denver, Oakland, Tennessee, and San Diego? It was the Stat Curtain. No splash plays until it was too late, just a paper defense.


Denver - Defense held second ranked offense to 14 pts going into 4th. In 4th Steelers offense went 3 and out twice and threw a pick 6. Manning had too many possessions and good field position.

Oakland - Steelers D was just bad.

Tennessee - Steelers 3 and out turned into blocked Steelers punt turned into 1st and goal from the 1. Steelers defense actually only gave up 19 points.

San Diego - 17 SD points scored on drives starting on Steelers 17, 36 and 47 yard line. Steelers had five 3 and outs and a ToD in the first half. Steelers D ended up being on the field for 36 minutes. Ike was out and Keenan was hurt. Only 1 SD drive that started in their own territory made it into the Steelers red zone.

Roethlisberger turned the ball over twice in his own red zone resulting in 14 Charger points. Who really cost the Steelers this game? I know, I know, Ben was handcuffed, they only ran 44 pass plays, 23 minutes TOP doesn't mean anything and when you find yourself in a hole you just have to keep digging. :sofunny:

Fire Haley
01-13-2013, 08:04 AM
Defense is irrelevant in the new NFL. The Steelers would lose by 30 to these teams anyway, with Mr Dink&Dunk making sure he got his 10 pts while they score 40.

OX1947
01-13-2013, 11:39 AM
Steelers lacked discipline, they lacked focus and they lacked any respect for the game and their coaches. Between Mendenhall being a bitch to Mike Wallace playing like a ***** to not get injured. That, and no true leader on the field. Ben is not a leader and never will be. Guys like Harrison and Troy are doers, they aren't the vocal type. The leader on this team needed to be Tomlin, but instead, he was too busy padding people on the ass telling them good job after mistake after mistake. Losing to the Titans and the Raiders was unacceptable and those two losses had as much to do with a shitty season then Ben playing like an idiot.

So, Tomlin will need to re-evaluate his role in this thing. First thing you can do as an org, is get rid of the cancers. Mendy and Wallace. Sign the young guys and play the young guys who are performing. Sign Lewis, draft a safety can take over when Clark and Troy retire. Pray, for at least one (bleep) year that our offensive line doesn't get injured every other damn play.

Twentyvalve
01-13-2013, 12:11 PM
Did you just say Ben was not a leader? Are you sure you have the correct Ben R. ?

Steelers lacked discipline, they lacked focus and they lacked any respect for the game and their coaches. Between Mendenhall being a bitch to Mike Wallace playing like a ***** to not get injured. That, and no true leader on the field. Ben is not a leader and never will be. Guys like Harrison and Troy are doers, they aren't the vocal type. The leader on this team needed to be Tomlin, but instead, he was too busy padding people on the ass telling them good job after mistake after mistake. Losing to the Titans and the Raiders was unacceptable and those two losses had as much to do with a shitty season then Ben playing like an idiot.

So, Tomlin will need to re-evaluate his role in this thing. First thing you can do as an org, is get rid of the cancers. Mendy and Wallace. Sign the young guys and play the young guys who are performing. Sign Lewis, draft a safety can take over when Clark and Troy retire. Pray, for at least one (bleep) year that our offensive line doesn't get injured every other damn play.

lloydwoodson
01-13-2013, 12:25 PM
If someone says "New NFL" one more time I am going to lose my mind. :banging:

Of the 6 teams alive in the playoffs 4 were in the top 10 in rushing. Ravens were 11th and the Falcons were 29th.

5 of the 6 remaining teams have top 10 scoring defenses- Baltimore is 12th.

There is no "New NFL" there is only an abundance of good quarterbacks. Playoff teams are teams that can play defense and run.

The Steelers have always been a run and stop-the-run football team. That is what I want out of the Steelers. Maybe a lot of people became fans after Superbowl XL I don't know.

Edman
01-13-2013, 12:42 PM
There is no "New NFL".

A good majority of the playoff teams this year can RUN the ball. Even the ones who are currently eliminated.

The Niners are in their 2nd consecutive NFC Title game because they could RUN THE BALL.

Seattle, Baltimore and Atlanta can RUN THE BALL.

Even New England, with Tom Brady could RUN THE BALL with nobody Stevan Ridley.

OX1947
01-13-2013, 12:44 PM
Did you just say Ben was not a leader? Are you sure you have the correct Ben R. ?

I cant tell if you are being sarcastic.

Edman
01-13-2013, 12:47 PM
Steelers lacked discipline, they lacked focus and they lacked any respect for the game and their coaches. Between Mendenhall being a bitch to Mike Wallace playing like a ***** to not get injured. That, and no true leader on the field. Ben is not a leader and never will be. Guys like Harrison and Troy are doers, they aren't the vocal type. The leader on this team needed to be Tomlin, but instead, he was too busy padding people on the ass telling them good job after mistake after mistake. Losing to the Titans and the Raiders was unacceptable and those two losses had as much to do with a shitty season then Ben playing like an idiot.

So, Tomlin will need to re-evaluate his role in this thing. First thing you can do as an org, is get rid of the cancers. Mendy and Wallace. Sign the young guys and play the young guys who are performing. Sign Lewis, draft a safety can take over when Clark and Troy retire. Pray, for at least one (bleep) year that our offensive line doesn't get injured every other damn play.

Oakland and Tennesee were bad losses, but not worth losing sleep over.

The San Diego, Dallas, and Cincinnati losses were far more offensive.

Edman
01-13-2013, 12:57 PM
Larry Fitz is still running after catching that pass from Warner....

And Harrison is still huffing oxygen after running the longest INT return in Super Bowl History. Scoring because our "Elite QB" once again couldn't move the ball or score against the vaunted 28th ranked Cardinals Defense.

GoFor7
01-13-2013, 01:12 PM
And Harrison is still huffing oxygen after running the longest INT return in Super Bowl History. Scoring because our "Elite QB" once again couldn't move the ball or score against the vaunted 28th ranked Cardinals Defense.

Yup, Ben was a total non-factor in that game :coffee:

You know what, I've had a total change of heart. I agree with you now.

BOOOOOOOOO! BEN STINKS! BOOOOOOOOO! he ain't even dun nuttin' fer da stillerz in da super bowl! da stillers won cuz of DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! in fact, ah ain't even watched da last two minutes of dat game cuz ah knew ben wouldn't do nuttin'! ah figured da defense just got da lead back! CUZ DA STILLERZ IS ALL BOUT DEFENSE! ben ain't dun nuttin'! cut him and run da ball like dey did in da 90's! dem wuz REAL stillerz teams! IT AIN'T EVEN MATTER DAT DEY DIDN'T WIN NUTTIN' CUZ DEY WUZ PLAYIN' DA STILLERZ WAY!!!!!!!!!!

Edman
01-13-2013, 01:18 PM
Yup, Ben was a total non-factor in that game :coffee:

You know what, I've had a total change of heart. I agree with you now.

BOOOOOOOOO! BEN STINKS! BOOOOOOOOO! he ain't even dun nuttin' fer da stillerz in da super bowl! da stillers won cuz of DEFENSE! DEFENSE! DEFENSE! in fact, ah ain't even watched da last two minutes of dat game cuz ah knew ben wouldn't do nuttin'! ah figured da defense just got da lead back! CUZ DA STILLERZ IS ALL BOUT DEFENSE! ben ain't dun nuttin'! cut him and run da ball like dey did in da 90's! dem wuz REAL stillerz teams! IT AIN'T EVEN MATTER DAT DEY DIDN'T WIN NUTTIN' CUZ DEY WUZ PLAYIN' DA STILLERZ WAY!!!!!!!!!!

Ben was a complete NON FACTOR in XLIII until the very end. That final drive really clouded the minds of how mediocre he played that day.

Bayz101
01-13-2013, 01:18 PM
Seriously? Is EVERY FUCKING THREAD going to turn into a thread about how Ben's a terrible quarterback? I got news for ya.

If he isn't drafted in '04, we're the 4 time super bowl champs. The team as a whole had a bad season, which is normal with new coaches on board. Every time this team has a losing season this bullshit spews all over the place.

Bayz101
01-13-2013, 01:19 PM
Ben was a complete NON FACTOR in XLIII until the very end. That final drive really clouded the minds of how mediocre he played that day.

Statistics don't mean shit, buddy. He won the game. Plain and simple.

SteelersCanada
01-13-2013, 01:23 PM
Do you know what stats got Peyton Manning in the playoffs? 9-11 and one Super Bowl win over Rex Grossman.

Let's talk about how stats got Drew Brees to the Super Bowl this year! Oh, wait a sec. Well, let's talk about how the Saints got into the playoffs on the back of Drew's 5000 yard year! Oh, shit, that too. Well, Stafford went for almost 5000 and they're in the playoffs competing for a title! What? They're picking top 5? My mistake.

Stats =/= success.

Edman
01-13-2013, 01:24 PM
Seriously? Is EVERY FUCKING THREAD going to turn into a thread about how Ben's a terrible quarterback? I got news for ya.

If he isn't drafted in '04, we're the 4 time super bowl champs. The team as a whole had a bad season, which is normal with new coaches on board. Every time this team has a losing season this bullshit spews all over the place.

Look, another Ben fanboy putting words in other people's mouths.

Show me ONE Post from me or anyone that said Ben is a terrible QB who needs to be cut loose or traded.

Legitimate criticism of Ben =/= Get rid of him.

Edman
01-13-2013, 01:26 PM
Statistics don't mean shit, buddy. He won the game. Plain and simple.

That's right Slappy, HE WON the game, no one else won it. HE WON IT.

That's good.

Then you won't mind if I put a little more responsibility on him for why the 2012 Steelers failed? I can't say that, though, cause then I'd be saying Ben's a Terrible QB! I know, it must be Todd Haley's fault!

steelerchad
01-13-2013, 01:34 PM
Seriously? Is EVERY FUCKING THREAD going to turn into a thread about how Ben's a terrible quarterback? I got news for ya.

If he isn't drafted in '04, we're the 4 time super bowl champs. The team as a whole had a bad season, which is normal with new coaches on board. Every time this team has a losing season this bullshit spews all over the place.

Funny part about your last statement is that this team has never had a losing season since they drafted BR. I know 8-8 and 9-7 feel like it when they miss the playoffs, but there are plenty of teams who's good years end at around .500 ball.

I don't think Ben is top 3, but I think he's top 5. He was again this year, until the injury.
So the top 3 QB's IMO are in action this weekend and the 2 that played yesterday basically sucked. They all aren't great all the time.

pczach
01-13-2013, 02:00 PM
Ben was a complete NON FACTOR in XLIII until the very end. That final drive really clouded the minds of how mediocre he played that day.

No, what clouds the mind is listening to you admit that Ben played his absolute best with the game on the line, but trying to tell everyone else how mediocre he is. :doh:

You keep talking about unleashing Manning, while keeping Ben leashed. Over both thier careers, Ben has been the overwhelmingly better pressure QB in the playoffs. It's not even close. Please get a grip on reality. With everything on the line in playoff football, Ben is the guy that gets it done better than just about anybody ever has.

There are certain guys in sports that just come up big in the biggest moments, while not being statistically as good as the regular season heroes. Take baseball. Roger Clemens, Greg Maddox, Randy Johnson, etc.. were fantastic regular season pitchers. If my child's life was on the line in the final game of the World Series, I would take Curt Schilling any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Statistically he wasn't as good, but when the shit hits the fan and you need one man to get it done, he was the man. If you wouldn't make that same choice, you're lying to yourself and us.

teegre
01-13-2013, 02:39 PM
No, what clouds the mind is listening to you admit that Ben played his absolute best with the game on the line, but trying to tell everyone else how mediocre he is. :doh:

You keep talking about unleashing Manning, while keeping Ben leashed. Over both thier careers, Ben has been the overwhelmingly better pressure QB in the playoffs. It's not even close. Please get a grip on reality. With everything on the line in playoff football, Ben is the guy that gets it done better than just about anybody ever has.

There are certain guys in sports that just come up big in the biggest moments, while not being statistically as good as the regular season heroes. Take baseball. Roger Clemens, Greg Maddox, Randy Johnson, etc.. were fantastic regular season pitchers. If my child's life was on the line in the final game of the World Series, I would take Curt Schilling any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Statistically he wasn't as good, but when the shit hits the fan and you need one man to get it done, he was the man. If you wouldn't make that same choice, you're lying to yourself and us.

Dude, that last drive in SuperBowl XLIII sucked. Kirk Gibson's home run in the World Series sucked... as did Bill Mazeroski's home run. Mary Lou Retton's "10" in the 1984 Olympics sucked. Michael Jordan's game six sucked. And, lastly, the end of "Slumdog Millionaire" sucked.

lloydwoodson
01-13-2013, 03:33 PM
Funny part about your last statement is that this team has never had a losing season since they drafted BR. I know 8-8 and 9-7 feel like it when they miss the playoffs, but there are plenty of teams who's good years end at around .500 ball.

I don't think Ben is top 3, but I think he's top 5. He was again this year, until the injury.
So the top 3 QB's IMO are in action this weekend and the 2 that played yesterday basically sucked. They all aren't great all the time.

The Steelers were 6-10 in 2006. You are thinking of Tomlin. The Steelers have never had a losing season under Tomlin therefore Tomlin is the sole reason for all of the Steelers success.

Funny how when Manning and Rodgers "basically suck" they still throw for multiple touchdowns.

OX1947
01-13-2013, 04:14 PM
The Steelers were 6-10 in 2006. You are thinking of Tomlin. The Steelers have never had a losing season under Tomlin therefore Tomlin is the sole reason for all of the Steelers success.

Funny how when Manning and Rodgers "basically suck" they still throw for multiple touchdowns.

They were 8-8 in 2006. And Cowher got a lot of "last year not caring" comments about his coaching. Conveniently forgetting that his star QB decided to ride motorcycles and eating windshields instead of working on his game after the worst performance by a winning QB in Super Bowl history.

OX1947
01-13-2013, 04:18 PM
You guys need to relax. Of course Ben is a good QB. Anyone with a brain can tell you that. However, I think the "Elite" tag gets thrown around WAY too much in sports. WAY too much. And if a player isnt "clutch", they suck. Well, the only thing more rare then elite is clutch.

Ben is not elite and is in the 2nd tier qb section with guys likes Eli Manning and Joe Flacco.

Elite QBs dont always mean you are going to win it all. Its a team sport. And you need some luck to win titles, ALOT of luck. I mean, the luck involved in winning is so big, that a helmet catch and a routine 3rd down drop late in the 4th quarter last Feb cost Brady from being a 5 time super bowl winner. That's how one little play can change the course of history.

Manning, Brady, Brees and Rodgers: Elite Qbs in the NFL. Everyone else is below. I think I have said this a few times in other posts, this is the last time im writing it.

harrison'samonster
01-13-2013, 04:33 PM
The Steelers were 6-10 in 2006.

I had to go back and look that one up, thinking that they were 7-9. They were actually 8-8, winning 6 of their last 8 games!

Funny that I remember that year as one filled with inconsistant play and bad fundamentals.

harrison'samonster
01-13-2013, 04:36 PM
Elite QBs dont always mean you are going to win it all. Its a team sport. And you need some luck to win titles, ALOT of luck. I mean, the luck involved in winning is so big, that a helmet catch and a routine 3rd down drop late in the 4th quarter last Feb cost Brady from being a 5 time super bowl winner. That's how one little play can change the course of history.



that's something we overlook a lot. When it comes down to it, even while winning, the "elite", "great", or whatever you want to call them get too much credit. It's absolutely a team sport and every piece needs to be there to win in the playoffs.

pczach
01-13-2013, 05:57 PM
Dude, that last drive in SuperBowl XLIII sucked. Kirk Gibson's home run in the World Series sucked... as did Bill Mazeroski's home run. Mary Lou Retton's "10" in the 1984 Olympics sucked. Michael Jordan's game six sucked. And, lastly, the end of "Slumdog Millionaire" sucked.

I'm not really sure what you're saying here. Could you please explain?

pczach
01-13-2013, 06:20 PM
You guys need to relax. Of course Ben is a good QB. Anyone with a brain can tell you that. However, I think the "Elite" tag gets thrown around WAY too much in sports. WAY too much. And if a player isnt "clutch", they suck. Well, the only thing more rare then elite is clutch.

Ben is not elite and is in the 2nd tier qb section with guys likes Eli Manning and Joe Flacco.

Elite QBs dont always mean you are going to win it all. Its a team sport. And you need some luck to win titles, ALOT of luck. I mean, the luck involved in winning is so big, that a helmet catch and a routine 3rd down drop late in the 4th quarter last Feb cost Brady from being a 5 time super bowl winner. That's how one little play can change the course of history.

Manning, Brady, Brees and Rodgers: Elite Qbs in the NFL. Everyone else is below. I think I have said this a few times in other posts, this is the last time im writing it.

Even if we accept everything you say as absolute truth. If a QB that you state is "elite", is not as good as QB's you say are not "elite" in the playoffs or when it matters most, then WTF are you talking about. If Manning is the greatest QB ever, but not as good as Ben under pressure....How good is Manning really? Rodgers is great. He had 96 yards passing in the first half yesterday, and 50 of them came on a jump ball that ended up bouncing into the hands of his receiver. He got most of his yards at garbage time in the game, and still only threw for 256 yards. Does he suck too? So much of this is subjective, I know, but come on.

Oh, and why don't you ask any Raven player to tell you candidly whether they would rather have Flacco or Ben as thier quarterback. You've heard Raven's players marvel at Ben in the past, and also know the record when Ben does or doesn't play. If you believe Flacco is as good as him, that's your opinion. I think if you asked most people in this league, they would overwhelmingly take Ben.

teegre
01-13-2013, 06:31 PM
I'm not really sure what you're saying here. Could you please explain?

I was agreeing with your post (that it's asinine to say that BB wasn't great in XLIII).

Explaining the joke... ruins it a tad. Oh well.

pczach
01-13-2013, 06:36 PM
I was agreeing with your post (that it's asinine to say that BB wasn't great in XLIII).

Explaining the joke... ruins it a tad. Oh well.

Sorry, I'm a little slow today. I thought that's where you were going, but I'm a little punchy and defensive from taking all the hits for Ben! I may also have a concussion. :flap:

teegre
01-13-2013, 06:39 PM
Sorry, I'm a little slow today. I thought that's where you were going, but I'm a little punchy and defensive from taking all the hits for Ben! I may also have a concussion. :flap:

LOL

Fire Haley
01-13-2013, 07:06 PM
If someone says "New NFL" one more time I am going to lose my mind. :banging:


New NFL

New NFL

New NFL


the days of 13-10 playoff games are long over grandpa

defense is irrelevant, if you can't score 40, stay home

harrison'samonster
01-13-2013, 07:11 PM
I still wouldn't say defenses are irrelevant, and neither is a good running game. But you'll have to be able to put up big points to get through the playoffs anymore.

Fire Haley
01-13-2013, 07:21 PM
Gronk breaks forearm again, done for playoffs

Ravens get lucky again

GoFor7
01-13-2013, 07:32 PM
I wonder what Steelers' management is thinking after watching this weekend of playoff games?

"Hey, maybe we should actually get some skill positions for offense and try to score some points next season."

Or......

"We're the Steelers! Our way is always right! Ball control and defense is enough!"

teegre
01-13-2013, 07:40 PM
I wonder what Steelers' management is thinking after watching this weekend of playoff games?

"Hey, maybe we should actually get some skill positions for offense and try to score some points next season."

Or......

"We're the Steelers! Our way is always right! Ball control and defense is enough!"

They're probably thinking:

"Why can't our skill positions play like that!?!"

Mike Wallace "could" be Torrey Smith. AB "could" be Wes Weller. Spinny, Dwyer, & Reggie Noble "could" be just as good as Ronnie Hillman, Stephan Ridley, and Shane Vareen.

harrison'samonster
01-13-2013, 07:44 PM
I wonder what Steelers' management is thinking after watching this weekend of playoff games?

"Hey, maybe we should actually get some skill positions for offense and try to score some points next season."

Or......

"We're the Steelers! Our way is always right! Ball control and defense is enough!"

Steelers management thinks scared. They're probably wondering what's under the bed when they go to sleep at night.

GoFor7
01-13-2013, 07:46 PM
They're probably thinking:

"Why can't our skill positions play like that!?!"

Mike Wallace "could" be Torrey Smith.

AB "could" be Wes Weller.

Spinny, Dwyer, & Reggie Noble "could" be just as good as Ronnie Hillman, Stephan Ridley, and Shane Vareen.

Yes, those guys underachieved and it's apart of the Steelers' failure this season. But do these playoff teams look like they're worrying about time of possession? Are they holding back their offenses from "scoring too quickly"?

Some guys gotta step up, but the Steelers need to change their philosophies and start getting the vertical passing game back. Other teams started catching onto the dink-and-dunk and Marty ball stuff and the offense never adjusted.

It's okay to trade some possession time for points.

rich4eagle
01-13-2013, 07:49 PM
I alluded to this in another thread and want to expound on the point.

Anyway, the Steelers play scared football on both sides of the ball. This has been going on since Cowher and Tomlin has carried the torch.

On offense, get any kind of lead and they pull the plug on offense and go into kill the clock mode. Even when they don't, they play to run and control the clock.

On defense, it's contain, keep everything in front of you, tackle the catch. How many times did we see an opponent pinned inside the five only to turn field position around? Thad Freaking Lewis did it with the Browns in the finale.

The result is a defense that doesn't get sacks or turnovers, which kill drives and set up good field position, and an offense that seems to max out at around 24 points on their best days.

That means every Sunday, no matter the opponent, the game will be in reach in the 4th quarter. In close games, a play or two here or there turns them. Enough of them turn the wrong way, and you're 8-8 instead of 12-4.

This philosophy emanates from the head coach down to the players. With Cowher it was "there's a fine line between winning and losing". With Tomlin, you "have to make significant plays at significant times". He said after the season that the reason dominant teams are dominant is because they find a way to win close games, and the Steelers couldn't do that this year.

A little research found that claim to be bogus. The Steelers won a grand total of 3 games by more than one score, i.e. 9 or more points, none by more than 17. The top three playoff seeds in each conference won no less than 6, some won 9 or 10, often times by 20 or more. They don't pucker up hoping to run out the clock in the 2nd half, they continue to attack and bury teams.

Maybe next year the breaks will go our way and we'll win those close games, but if they don't, Tomlin may be on a very short leash in 2014.

I mostly agree except with Cowher the played to end the game in Q4, while under Tomlin they played not to lose and in a shell and hoped for luck. Tomlin is NOT a good game coach.:tt::tt04::tt03::tt02:

teegre
01-13-2013, 07:59 PM
Yes, those guys underachieved and it's apart of the Steelers' failure this season. But do these playoff teams look like they're worrying about time of possession? Are they holding back their offenses from "scoring too quickly"?

Some guys gotta step up, but the Steelers need to change their philosophies and start getting the vertical passing game back. Other teams started catching onto the dink-and-dunk and Marty ball stuff and the offense never adjusted.

It's okay to trade some possession time for points.

You say that Art II was concerned about TOP. When did he ever say that? In his pre-season press conference, he stated that his main goal was to keep his QB upright... which they did. Please, provide a link or cite a reference that says that he was more concerned with TOP that with anything else. Alas, every time that you've posted this, I've asked the same question... and then, you disappear from the thread.

Did he mention that he wants the running game to be better? Yes... because, look at it: it's horrid. Since that declaration, they have drafted three O-linemen in the first two rounds is a step in the right direction... a move which even you can agree with (right???).

Regardless, the bolded part is the difference between play-off teams and the current Steelers. Wes Welker's sideline pass was the epitome of "wanting it." The ball should have been knocked away, but he one-armed it. I can count on my fingers the number of times that the skill player on last year's roster tried even a fourth that hard.

Wallace not dragging his feet and/or not going after balls thrown in his direction. Fumbles by AB... and the RBs. Not getting out of bounds when the clock is winding down. Et cetera.

GoFor7
01-13-2013, 08:17 PM
You say that Art II was concerned about TOP. When did he ever say that? In his pre-season press conference, he stated that his main goal was to keep his QB upright... which they did. Please, provide a link or cite a reference that says that he was more concerned with TOP that with anything else. Alas, every time that you've posted this, I've asked the same question... and then, you disappear from the thread.

When the WRs, all of them, are only sent 5 to 10 yards beyond the LOS, that's my indication that the Steelers are more concerned about TOP than scoring regardless of what anyone says. When they call run, run, pass after one of the few turnovers the defense gets instead of going to the jugular, that says they're more concerned about TOP.

And Ben wasn't kept upright, he missed 3 weeks.

Did he mention that he wants the running game to be better? Yes... because, look at it: it's horrid. Since that declaration, they have drafted three O-linemen in the first two rounds is a step in the right direction... a move which even you can agree with (right???).

The problem is the Steelers are going about it the wrong way. They're definition of fixing the running game is stubbornly calling RUTMs on the first two downs and hope Ben bails them out on 3rd and long. They essentially shut down their own running game by doing that. Also, last week the Packers were able to run the ball effectively against the Vikings because they used a lot of no huddle which tired out the Vikings' front 7.

Perhaps the Steelers should pass more often on first down because a) it's a down where the defense has to respect both the run and the pass, and b) it'll probably result in more manageable third downs.

Regardless, the bolded part is the difference between play-off teams and the current Steelers. Wes Welker's sideline pass was the epitome of "wanting it." The ball should have been knocked away, but he one-armed it. I can count on my fingers the number of times that the skill player on last year's roster tried even a fourth that hard.

Wallace not dragging his feet and/or not going after balls thrown in his direction. Fumbles by AB... and the RBs. Not getting out of bounds when the clock is winding down. Et cetera.

I acknowledge that the WRs never made the difficult catches (or the easy ones) for much of this season. However, the Steelers also have to realize that this ball control offense isn't putting up points. Like I said before, only two playoff teams were in the top 5 in TOP, and both of them were eliminated today (Houston and Seattle). Trade some TOP for points.

teegre
01-13-2013, 08:44 PM
When the WRs, all of them, are only sent 5 to 10 yards beyond the LOS, that's my indication that the Steelers are more concerned about TOP than scoring regardless of what anyone says. When they call run, run, pass after one of the few turnovers the defense gets instead of going to the jugular, that says they're more concerned about TOP.

And Ben wasn't kept upright, he missed 3 weeks.



The problem is the Steelers are going about it the wrong way. They're definition of fixing the running game is stubbornly calling RUTMs on the first two downs and hope Ben bails them out on 3rd and long. They essentially shut down their own running game by doing that. Also, last week the Packers were able to run the ball effectively against the Vikings because they used a lot of no huddle which tired out the Vikings' front 7.

Perhaps the Steelers should pass more often on first down because a) it's a down where the defense has to respect both the run and the pass, and b) it'll probably result in more manageable third downs.



I acknowledge that the WRs never made the difficult catches (or the easy ones) for much of this season. However, the Steelers also have to realize that this ball control offense isn't putting up points. Like I said before, only two playoff teams were in the top 5 in TOP, and both of them were eliminated today (Houston and Seattle). Trade some TOP for points.

1. TOP
Ah, your opinion. Just clarifying that it is merely your opinion. Thanks, once again.

2. INJURY
injuries can happen on any given play. Ergo, limited the number of sacks, reduces the chances for injury. The sacks were down. Period.

3. RUTM
Greg Cosell said that the correct plays were called, but that the injuries to the O-line reduced the execution. Furthermore, he stated that prior the the O-line collapse, the offense was heading upwards (not significantly, but upwards). The NYGiants game was an example of the healthy O-line running well. BUT, obviously, as the Cosell thread proved: your OPINION is more valuable than the analysis of an unbiased analyst with thrifty years of film study under his belt.

4. PLAY-CALLING
Likewise, Trent Dilfer has stated that the Steelers have called the right plays, but due to execution (or lack thereof), many of those drives resulted in FGs (or even turnovers) instead of TDs. BUT, again, obviously your OPINION is obviously more accurate than ESPN's top analyst.

5. YAWN
Yet another reference to Marty-ball. At least you never give up on your opinions. I'll give you that much. It could be raining, and you'd throw down an umbrella. Kudos for sticking to your guns... albeit, rain-soaked guns.

GoFor7
01-13-2013, 09:27 PM
1. TOP
Ah, your opinion. Just clarifying that it is merely your opinion. Thanks, once again.

2. INJURY
injuries can happen on any given play. Ergo, limited the number of sacks, reduces the chances for injury. The sacks were down. Period.

3. RUTM
Greg Cosell said that the correct plays were called, but that the injuries to the O-line reduced the execution. Furthermore, he stated that prior the the O-line collapse, the offense was heading upwards (not significantly, but upwards). The NYGiants game was an example of the healthy O-line running well. BUT, obviously, as the Cosell thread proved: your OPINION is more valuable than the analysis of an unbiased analyst with thrifty years of film study under his belt.

4. PLAY-CALLING
Likewise, Trent Dilfer has stated that the Steelers have called the right plays, but due to execution (or lack thereof), many of those drives resulted in FGs (or even turnovers) instead of TDs. BUT, again, obviously your OPINION is obviously more accurate than ESPN's top analyst.

5. YAWN
Yet another reference to Marty-ball. At least you never give up on your opinions. I'll give you that much. It could be raining, and you'd throw down an umbrella. Kudos for sticking to your guns... albeit, rain-soaked guns.

Don't be pissed off when the offense doesn't score many points then.

I guess if Cossel says the sky is green then the sky is green.

teegre
01-13-2013, 09:37 PM
Don't be pissed off when the offense doesn't score many points then.

I guess if Cossel says the sky is green then the sky is green.

I was happy with the offense, prior to the injury. They were 6-3, and BB was an MVP candidate. If they make two more short completions (in the Oakland & the Tennessee game), they are 8-1. That said, as many of us have said, and as Trent Dilfer said, getting "7 instead of 3" is the next step. Not getting sacked out of FG is step one; going from FG to TD is step two. I saw progress... hence, I was & am happy.

At the north pole, at times the sky is indeed green. Thanks for clarifying that Cosell knows more about football than the rest of us.

SteelersCanada
01-13-2013, 10:20 PM
I don't want to take away from the debate you two are having, but I'll throw my one liner in here.

Prior to Ben's injury, the Steelers were rolling. The defense was starting to click and Ben was indeed playing like a legitimate MVP candidate. Then, we lost him to fucking Kansas City, but I digress.

DanRooney
01-13-2013, 10:33 PM
Ben was a complete NON FACTOR in XLIII until the very end. That final drive really clouded the minds of how mediocre he played that day.

The first drive he marched right down the field to the 1 but our shit OL mixed with a shit run game wasn't able to punch it in.

harrison'samonster
01-13-2013, 10:35 PM
I don't want to take away from the debate you two are having, but I'll throw my one liner in here.

Prior to Ben's injury, the Steelers were rolling. The defense was starting to click and Ben was indeed playing like a legitimate MVP candidate. Then, we lost him to fucking Kansas City, but I digress.

I agree. This team was putting it together, we got through some pretty big injuries, but couldn't overcome Ben going down. That and the running game suffering from injuries by the end of the season, and this offense went nowhere.

teegre
01-13-2013, 10:42 PM
I don't want to take away from the debate you two are having, but I'll throw my one liner in here.

Prior to Ben's injury, the Steelers were rolling. The defense was starting to click and Ben was indeed playing like a legitimate MVP candidate. Then, we lost him to fucking Kansas City, but I digress.

Exactly.

I've been saying that for weeks... to no avail.

teegre
01-13-2013, 10:44 PM
I agree. This team was putting it together, we got through some pretty big injuries, but couldn't overcome Ben going down. That and the running game suffering from injuries by the end of the season, and this offense went nowhere.

This.

SteelersCanada
01-13-2013, 10:49 PM
Exactly.

I've been saying that for weeks... to no avail.

Oh I've seen it. People just lose their minds when we have a down season and start to question everything, including our franchise quarterback.

teegre
01-13-2013, 10:52 PM
The first drive he marched right down the field to the 1 but our shit OL mixed with a shit run game wasn't able to punch it in.

The way that they used Hines Ward on that opening drive, who was "supposed to be too injured to play", was brilliant. Ward had about three good routes in his knee... all of which he used on that opening drive. Then, afterwards, the safeties were actually rolling the coverage his way... since Ward had "burned" them on the first drive. In turn, at the end, Santonio was left "open" ("open" being less covered than he should have been)... and the rest of was history.

I could watch that final drive over & over.

Steve Young talked about how it was the "perfect" drive.

But, yea... uh... BB sucked in that game... uh... hmmm.

teegre
01-13-2013, 10:54 PM
Oh I've seen it. People just lose their minds when we have a down season and start to question everything, including our franchise quarterback.

Exactly.

In fact, last week, I heard two Steelers fans arguing over orange versus lemon-lime Gatorade. One blamed the season on the orange flavor: too sweet. The other said that lemon-lime is too "90s." Strangely, this is not far from the truth.

Note: the answer is obviously cucumber-lime.

SteelersCanada
01-13-2013, 10:59 PM
Exactly.

In fact, last week, I heard two Steelers fans arguing over orange versus lemon-lime Gatorade. One blamed the season on the orange flavor: too sweet. The other said that lemon-lime is too "90s." Strangely, this is not far from the truth.

Note: the answer is obviously cucumber-lime.

I think I'm laughing at this harder than I should be.

:drink:

teegre
01-13-2013, 11:03 PM
I think I'm laughing at this harder than I should be.

:drink:

Mission completed.

:drink:

OX1947
01-13-2013, 11:05 PM
Even if we accept everything you say as absolute truth. If a QB that you state is "elite", is not as good as QB's you say are not "elite" in the playoffs or when it matters most, then WTF are you talking about. If Manning is the greatest QB ever, but not as good as Ben under pressure....How good is Manning really? Rodgers is great. He had 96 yards passing in the first half yesterday, and 50 of them came on a jump ball that ended up bouncing into the hands of his receiver. He got most of his yards at garbage time in the game, and still only threw for 256 yards. Does he suck too? So much of this is subjective, I know, but come on.

Oh, and why don't you ask any Raven player to tell you candidly whether they would rather have Flacco or Ben as thier quarterback. You've heard Raven's players marvel at Ben in the past, and also know the record when Ben does or doesn't play. If you believe Flacco is as good as him, that's your opinion. I think if you asked most people in this league, they would overwhelmingly take Ben.

Big Ben has been (bleep) in the clutch for 3 years now. It started from the last drive in SB 45. So, lets say, had he won that game with a last min drive again, then yes, he would be elite because he would be a 3 time SB champ and more then likely would have won the SB MVP too. But he didnt. And he has been shitty for "elite" status.

As far as Aaron Rodgers and Peyton Manning, did you watch the games? Was is Aaron's fault their defense allowed almost 600 yards. Is it Manning's fault the Broncos defense cant cover a damn receiver with secs left to win the game? Was it Brady's fault for the helmet catch and Welker dropping a 1st down pass to end the game?

Now, last year, Ben was good. There were two games we lost that cost us last year and it wasn't Ben's fault. The Ravens game when they drove 92 yards to win. And the Denver playoff game where Ike Taylor made Dey Thomas look like Jerry Rice and Randy Moss merged together in their prime. BUT, he still doesnt think about his mortality. He needs to throw the damn ball away sometimes. Each year he keeps missing key games and coming back and playing badly. The other thing is, he keeps whining about something. He needs to shut up and just play. I am tired of hearing him whining about coaches and players. Just play the (bleep) game.

Edman
01-13-2013, 11:45 PM
I don't want to take away from the debate you two are having, but I'll throw my one liner in here.

Prior to Ben's injury, the Steelers were rolling. The defense was starting to click and Ben was indeed playing like a legitimate MVP candidate. Then, we lost him to fucking Kansas City, but I digress.

Then the debate starts all over again when you realize WHY Ben was lost to Kansas City.

Ben was lost once again because he went sandlot on 3rd and 4.

SteelersCanada
01-13-2013, 11:49 PM
Then the debate starts all over again when you realize WHY Ben was lost to Kansas City.

Ben was lost once again because he went sandlot on 3rd and 4.

Ben going sandlot shouldn't be new to you. Stuff breaks down - look at the Patriots tonight. They had a 3rd-and-5 and Brady was bouncing around in the pocket and eventually threw a pass that was incomplete.

Whatever the play was, it broke down and Ben was trying to improvise. Sure, in a perfect world we would've had the correct playcall in and he wouldn't have had to scramble on such a manageable down, but shit happens.

Bayz101
01-14-2013, 07:46 AM
Then the debate starts all over again when you realize WHY Ben was lost to Kansas City.

Ben was lost once again because he went sandlot on 3rd and 4.

Ben was IN the pocket (which completely collapsed) when he was injured.

He wasn't running towards the sidelines shedding off tackles and throwing over his body. He wasn't playing "sandlot", he was simply trying to make a play. ALL great QB's try and make things happen in the pocket and try buy as much time as they can. Even the immobile Peyton Manning tried buying time in the pocket in Denver this weekend.

If Ben would have thrown it away half the damn fan base would call him a bitch, so honestly, it doesn't really matter. :chuckle:

teegre
01-14-2013, 10:37 AM
Ben going sandlot shouldn't be new to you. Stuff breaks down - look at the Patriots tonight. They had a 3rd-and-5 and Brady was bouncing around in the pocket and eventually threw a pass that was incomplete.

Whatever the play was, it broke down and Ben was trying to improvise. Sure, in a perfect world we would've had the correct playcall in and he wouldn't have had to scramble on such a manageable down, but shit happens.

Wait, wait, wait... are you saying that all of those top-five drafted defensive players and/or All-Pro players (Derrick Johnson) are actually trying to earn their paychecks? Are you saying that defenders can & will actually get into the pocket & sack the QB??? Are you saying that other teams have defenders... and that sometimes a QB just has to make do???

Poppycock!!!

:wink02:

steelfury02
01-14-2013, 10:40 AM
way too much marty-ball - when his skill set is playing sandlot - I propose a permanent V formation in front of Ben

GoFor7
01-14-2013, 10:56 AM
I don't want to take away from the debate you two are having, but I'll throw my one liner in here.

Prior to Ben's injury, the Steelers were rolling. The defense was starting to click and Ben was indeed playing like a legitimate MVP candidate. Then, we lost him to fucking Kansas City, but I digress.

He was an MVP candidate not because of Haley, but because he was bailing the offense out on 3rd & long all the time. Ben made Haley look good, not the other way around.

These playoffs should be a red flag that the Steelers are way behind the times in regards to offense. It's not about ball control, it's about putting up points. Dink-and-dunk isn't enough, nor does it fit the Steelers offense.

lloydwoodson
01-15-2013, 08:37 AM
He was an MVP candidate not because of Haley, but because he was bailing the offense out on 3rd & long all the time. Ben made Haley look good, not the other way around.

These playoffs should be a red flag that the Steelers are way behind the times in regards to offense. It's not about ball control, it's about putting up points. Dink-and-dunk isn't enough, nor does it fit the Steelers offense.

It is too bad Roethlisberger couldn't make Arians look good... Bruce would still be a Steeler.

These playoff should be a red flag that the Steelers need to run the ball more effectively. Every team that has rushed for the most yards has won (except for Minnesota and their backup qb).

The 49ers ran for 323 yards! It is a running league! Quick sign Vick! Draft Warmack and Lacy! Sign a FA running back! The NEWEST NFL is a running league! Only 1 elite qb is still in the playoffs!!! STEELERS NEED A RUNNING GAME!!!

steelfury02
01-15-2013, 08:56 AM
It is too bad Roethlisberger couldn't make Arians look good... Bruce would still be a Steeler.

These playoff should be a red flag that the Steelers need to run the ball more effectively. Every team that has rushed for the most yards has won (except for Minnesota and their backup qb).

The 49ers ran for 323 yards! It is a running league! Quick sign Vick! Draft Warmack and Lacy! Sign a FA running back! The NEWEST NFL is a running league! Only 1 elite qb is still in the playoffs!!! STEELERS NEED A RUNNING GAME!!!

someone else posted an interesting idea, and I believe that is what Haley was getting at before the start of the season. He had no intentions of hand-cuffing Ben, and, Ben was slinging it quite a bit (even if it was on 3rd down - Redman and Dwyer were getting into enough of a groove that teams were starting to respect the run and they didn't know what was going to happen on 3rd down - hence being the best 3rd down conversion team in the NFL at the 5-3/6-3 mark) We can't play scared with Ben, but, delivering it to 10 different receivers while letting Ben improv if it breaks down is not a bad formula. You def need a respectable running game (and O-line) to do this otherwise Ben just can't be Ben - defenses will just tee off not respecting anything other than "We know Ben is going to throw - let's get to him and jump the routes" - and. the more injuries we sustained, the more vanilla and predictable things got

Injuries and no running game is/was a fact. You absolutely can dink and dunk it - the best offense in the league just demolished the vaunted Texans D doing it all day long - and their RB stable contributed in a huge way this season. We had a great O-line coming together before injuries. Anyone else like the way they were lining up their RBs at WR against Texans? - extremely crafty. Before we throw Mendy out the door (which I wouldn't lose sleep over) let's think about those passes in the flat and especially to our FB who was starting to look a like a key contributer until the O was decimated - I'd like to see our RB more involved in passing game as well.

Fire Haley
01-15-2013, 09:39 AM
way too much marty-ball - when his skill set is playing sandlot

I don't think you have a clue what "Marty ball" means...



In simple terms, it means a focus on the running game, with passing used only to further the running game.

teegre
01-15-2013, 10:10 AM
I don't think you have a clue what "Marty ball" means...



In simple terms, it means a focus on the running game, with passing used only to further the running game.

He's being facetious. (It's a dig at Gofor7.)

VaDave
01-16-2013, 05:42 AM
It is too bad Roethlisberger couldn't make Arians look good... Bruce would still be a Steeler.

These playoff should be a red flag that the Steelers need to run the ball more effectively. Every team that has rushed for the most yards has won (except for Minnesota and their backup qb).

The 49ers ran for 323 yards! It is a running league! Quick sign Vick! Draft Warmack and Lacy! Sign a FA running back! The NEWEST NFL is a running league! Only 1 elite qb is still in the playoffs!!! STEELERS NEED A RUNNING GAME!!!

How many of those yards were picked up by the QBs? Some how, I just don't see Ben puting up those kind of numbers.

tomlin_era
01-16-2013, 11:44 AM
Actually, I think that mentioning Cowher actually points to two huge factors (that are currently missing):

1) No running game. Cowher had The Bus. The Steelers could close out games better than anyone... via killing the clock.

I remember a game against the Browns, where Bam Morris ran the ball like 13 straight times, taking 6 minutes off of the clock... and the Steelers knelt down on the 6 yard line in victory formation.

Likewise, I rememebr a game agains the Titans, where FWP ran the ball 22 straight times in the fourth quarter, to kill the clock.

This O-line was far too injured to accomlish such feats.

2) No pressure. I remember being up 10 points, and when the prevent defense was put into affect, LeBeau would also unleash Greg Lloyd (or Joey Porter)... and the OLB would always (ALWAYS) get a crucial sack (making it third and looong) or get the strip-sack.

Alas, Harrison was not "Harrison" for the first half of the season (i.e. in the Tennessee & Oakland games). And, Woodley is nearly 320 pounds. In turn, no pressure.

Woodley has turned into a fat, lazy sack of shit!

StainlessStill
01-16-2013, 11:57 AM
Scared? How about just cautious? When a guy in front of you goes from Ben, to Leftwhich, to Batch, to Ben in weeks time, things can get complicated. When Ben is back, when your center goes from Pouncey, to Legursky and your blindside goes from Colon to Pouncey or Foster, that's when you play the game cautiously.

We don't play scared. We play hurt! Time for a change. All I want for Christmas next September is a well conditioned starting unit that can last one full game! Too much to ask? Probably.

steelfury02
01-16-2013, 12:51 PM
Scared? How about just cautious? When a guy in front of you goes from Ben, to Leftwhich, to Batch, to Ben in weeks time, things can get complicated. When Ben is back, when your center goes from Pouncey, to Legursky and your blindside goes from Colon to Pouncey or Foster, that's when you play the game cautiously.

We don't play scared. We play hurt! Time for a change. All I want for Christmas next September is a well conditioned starting unit that can last one full game! Too much to ask? Probably.

Oh pweese toof fairy, one healthy year and I swears I'll be good

pczach
01-16-2013, 05:17 PM
Woodley has turned into a fat, lazy sack of shit!

Don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel about Woodley! :sofunny: