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View Full Version : How will posterity remember Peyton?


PATS16N0
01-14-2013, 02:40 PM
First of all, despite all the hate for Tom Brady, from fans and media, I believe this man will get his due on the day of retirement by even his most jadded critics and be regarded as the best of all time..

But what about Peyton?

Peyton was always the quarterback everyone wanted to succeed.
In fact, I have never seen an NFL player whose media-legacy and on-the-field play have such a wide disconnect from one another.

Peyton just gets lavished with rose peddles each and every season.
This year he moved to a "more complete team" than both Brady and Rodgers were on, and put up inferior statistics than both quarterbacks, yet was discussed for the last 8 weeks of football as the obvious MVP winner.

I mean, every time the media talks about him they turn into North Korea.

Peyton became the quarterback with the most all time QB losses in post season history (ironically, on the same weekend Brady separated himself from Montana with 17 wins) against Baltimore. He now also has the `record` for most first round eliminations with 8.

Think about this.
In the 2000's the AFC South was trash. It was Peyton Manning and a bunch of crappy expansion teams (Texans, Jags, Titans). Mark Sanchez could get to the first round of the post season in this division. And now the AFC West.

Say what you want about the AFC East but Miami was a post-season team during our Dynasty, the Jets are a strong defense and went to two back to back AFCCG's, and its a mute point anyway because the Pats win in the post-season.

Peyton has basically been in a situation his entire career where it would be impossible NOT to make the play offs, then once there he was immediately kicked out of them in his first game.

Peyton is a true system quarterback. He even brought his one system with him from Indy to Denver. Once he faces good teams, he gets shut down, then he clams up, then he tosses interceptions. Even his one Superbowl year came with a post season performance of 3 touchdowns and 7 interceptions. In other words, his defense carried him. The Patriots stripped their offense down to the bare-bones in 2006 before the '07 reload, and still barely lost the AFC Championship game in Indianapolis, allowing Peyton to proceed.

I say when it's all said and done, all this "GOAT" talk of Manning fades with his retirement and he goes down in history as somewhere on the bottom of a top ten all time list, and nowhere near the top of it.

harrison'samonster
01-14-2013, 02:42 PM
unless Brady wins any more SB's all he's going to be remembered for is spygate and being defeated twice by Eli Manning.

PATS16N0
01-14-2013, 02:45 PM
unless Brady wins any more SB's all he's going to be remembered for is spygate and being defeated twice by Eli Manning.

lol. I know with such certainty that that ALREADY isn't the case, I'm not gonna' even bother to argue the point

fansince'76
01-14-2013, 02:55 PM
lol. I know with such certainty that that ALREADY isn't the case, I'm not gonna' even bother to argue the point

Riiiight.

Atlanta Dan
01-14-2013, 03:10 PM
Brady will not be regarded as the equal of Montana unless he wins another Super Bowl

After the 2004 season I thought Brady might win around 6 Super Bowls - has not turned out that way has it now?

Post-2004 Brady has had his share of disappointing losses too

PATS16N0
01-14-2013, 03:18 PM
Brady will not be regarded as the equal of Montana unless he wins another Super Bowl

After the 2004 season I thought Brady might win around 6 Super Bowls - has not turned out that way has it now?

Post-2004 Brady has had his share of disappointing losses too

He does need a 4ing ring, I agree. But he also has 2 more conference championships than Montana, too.

I think if anything what I've learned in watching the trials and tribulations of New England since the 2006 season is that it's very hard to win a Superbowl. Very hard.

Green Bay was probably expecting Rodgers to win six, too, all last season while he was steam rolling people.
Two back to back divisional round losses.

PhantomJB93
01-14-2013, 03:53 PM
I still think up through 2009 Peyton was better than Brady. Obviously since then he's been on the decline and Brady clearly hasn't, but to me the Peyton Manning up to the end of the 00's was an all-time great who didn't have enough of a supporting cast to win as many SB's as he should have. He had complete mastery of his offense and team and made throws I thought were simply impossible. Not that Brady didn't either but to me Peyton's control and mastery of his passing attack was on another level...where Brady executed well for the Patriots, Peyton WAS the Colts, if that makes any sense (it probably doesn't but I'm having trouble putting my opinion into words). The 09 Super Bowl loss to Brees, to me, marked the end of Peyton's reign as the best QB...he's still playing well but at nowhere near the level he was back then. But, in short, I will remember him for his fantastic career as a Colt, regardless of whether he ever wins with the Broncos or not.

Then again, I'm one of those people who still argues Marino was better than Montana despite the lack of rings, so maybe I just have a soft spot for great QBs who didn't win many championships.

PATS16N0
01-14-2013, 04:02 PM
And it’s not like he’s entered the playoffs with bad teams, folks.

Quite the opposite. He’s consistently entered the playoffs with GREAT teams. The 2005 Colts, for example, were 14-2, No. 2 in scoring defense and the AFC’s No. 1 seed. They failed to win a single playoff game, losing to Pittsburgh, 21-18.

The 2007 Colts were 13-3, No. 1 in scoring defense and the AFC’s No. 2 seed. They failed to win a single playoff game, losing to San Diego 28-24.

And, of course, the 2012 Broncos were 13-3, No. 4 in scoring defense and the AFC’s No. 1 seed. They failed to win a single playoff game, too.

Notice a trend here, folks?

Naturally, Manning reserved one of his worst performances of the year for the playoffs:

28 of 43, 290 yards, 6.7 YPA, 3 TD, 2 INT, 88.3 rating

It was Manning’s third-lowest-rated game of the entire 2012 season: 58.5 vs. Atlanta and 83.0 vs. Houston – all three of his lowest-rated games losses. That's how it works in the NFL, folks. QB puts up great numbers you win. QB doesn't and you lose.

In 14 of 17 games this season, including all 13 wins, Manning posted a passer rating better than 90, including 10 games better than 100. But in the biggest game of the year, he was once again merely ordinary.

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/heartbreaker-same-old-song-and-dance-for-peyton-manning/20801/

He's had plenty of great teams. He's had teams a hell of a lot better than the 2011 Patriots, that's for sure. That team was gaping with holes.

dez09231
01-14-2013, 04:06 PM
I still think up through 2009 Peyton was better than Brady. Obviously since then he's been on the decline and Brady clearly hasn't, but to me the Peyton Manning up to the end of the 00's was an all-time great who didn't have enough of a supporting cast to win as many SB's as he should have. He had complete mastery of his offense and team and made throws I thought were simply impossible. Not that Brady didn't either but to me Peyton's control and mastery of his passing attack was on another level...where Brady executed well for the Patriots, Peyton WAS the Colts, if that makes any sense (it probably doesn't but I'm having trouble putting my opinion into words). The 09 Super Bowl loss to Brees, to me, marked the end of Peyton's reign as the best QB...he's still playing well but at nowhere near the level he was back then. But, in short, I will remember him for his fantastic career as a Colt, regardless of whether he ever wins with the Broncos or not.

Then again, I'm one of those people who still argues Marino was better than Montana despite the lack of rings, so maybe I just have a soft spot for great QBs who didn't win many championships.


Nailed it. It's easy to forget that Brady also has one of the best, if not the best coach of all time. If Peyton was in New England and Brady was in Indy, you could probably swap how many rings they have.

Brady is far and away better than Peyton in the playoffs, and as of right now is the better QB, but I don't know how you can call Peyton a "system" QB when Brady has put up numbers when Belichek has given him an amazing offense. Granted, Peyton had some studs too at one point, and both Brady and Peyton make the people around them better, but New England has had multiple years now where opposing defenses flat out can't match the personnel that the Patriots offense has.

They are both great. Brady will go down as being better, but it's not as if he is far and away better. To me, Brady will go down as the second best post season QB of all-time, and they will both go down as top 5 overall.

SteelersCanada
01-14-2013, 04:15 PM
Peyton is a great regular season quarterback. He'll win you games and win division titles, but he won't win you playoff games. 8 one-and-dones in the playoffs is bad. If his name wasn't Peyton Manning, we'd look at that stat and say 'average quarterback'. Sure, he's been to 20 playoff games - that's great. Winning 9 of them isn't.

One of the arguments that was just erased in this postseason was 'If Peyton had a defense like the Steelers, he'd have 5 rings!'. I'd argue against that point until I was blue in the face and often times, my friends who are Peyton and/or Indy fans would be flustered too. It would get heated by the end of it, but these playoffs just erased that point. The Broncos had a top 5 defense and a top 5 offense. His defense was playing stout football and were arguably the best defense left in the playoffs at that point. What happened, though? Peyton did as Peyton does and came up un-clutch in the playoffs. The simple fact of the matter is, Peyton Manning isn't that great when it matters most.

One of the biggest boosts that Brady has is, who did he win a Super Bowl with? Can you name a receiver that Brady won with? He was able to put up ridiculous numbers and play at such a high level without any true supporting cast. He made those receivers who they were and took a bunch of no-names to the Super Bowl and won. Three times. Peyton had Reggie. Montana had Rice. Brady had ... Givens? Branch?

Brady has always been and will always be the better Quarterback. Peyton should be remembered as the guy who couldn't get it done when games actually mattered, but he won't be.

BrandonCarr39
01-14-2013, 04:22 PM
At least for now, Tony Romo is the most maligned QB in the NFL. Peyton at least has 9 playoff wins + a SB. Romo OTOH has only ONE playoff win, and 6 losses in win-or-go-home games.

Peyton has had quite a career, overall, despite a few bumps in the road.

lloydwoodson
01-14-2013, 04:27 PM
Aaron Rodgers is the greatest quarterback of all time. Rodgers>Brady. 103.6 rating in the playoffs!!! Brady can't hold Rodgers jock. Rodgers will end his career with 4 superbowls and Brady is stuck at 3.

The End.

PATS16N0
01-14-2013, 04:31 PM
. Peyton should be remembered as the guy who couldn't get it done when games actually mattered, but he won't be.

I agree with absolutely everything you said except this.

I think a lot of `legendary` football players get treated one way and then another once they retire. Manning has a lot of sycophants in the media, and they can keep his name alive with some people for now, but at the end of the day, when the curtain call comes, I can think of no player, ever, that wasn't remembered rightly for exactly what he was.

I remember when Marino retired, everyone saying "he'll be remembered up there with Montana and Elway, even though he never won the big one."

Truth is, he isn't.

Being the "greatest regular season quarterback of all time" sounds like a really great achievement, but when you consider his divisions, and his post-season play, it starts to sound more insulting than complimentary.

The Colts were guaranteed a post-season spot just about every season. All they had to do was beat up expansion teams.

Regular season stats are just a notch in the feather of great post season quarterbacks, NOT the other way around.

Atlanta Dan
01-14-2013, 04:32 PM
Of course part of Peyton's persona is that he also is a good guy (which is why he has all those endorsements) - please walk me through how many other HOF QBs who had just experienced one of the most devastating losses of their career would do this?

Inside the empty locker room Peyton Manning hugged Ray Lewis.

This was long after the great double-overtime playoff game had finished Saturday evening, after Lewis had left the field and the near-zero temperatures, victorious. This was also after Lewis had wept at his locker, eye black rolling down his face. And this was even after he showered, dressed slowly in a suit, did a news conference and a television interview that went longer than promised.

Manning undoubtedly wanted to go home, yet the Denver Broncos quarterback waited somberly inside a deserted Baltimore Ravens locker room. Beside him was his wife Ashley and their nearly 2-year-old son Marshall. Saturday's defeat had to be one of the most agonizing of Manning's career – a 38-35 loss in a game he was 38 seconds from winning – and still the Mannings stood in front of the empty locker of Ravens nose tackle Terrence Cody for a long, long time Saturday evening.

They did this because it was Ray Lewis.

Because in his last days of football, the Ravens linebacker won't walk silently into the night. "I'm so happy for you," Ashley Manning said as Lewis finally walked into the room.

Then Peyton Manning and Lewis talked quietly, their voices mostly muffled but the tone obvious and admiring. If Peyton Manning wasn't going to go to the Super Bowl it was clear he wanted Ray Lewis to be the one who did

http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/sine8ddrcENwZ51ivA7MYQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTMxMA--/http://l.yimg.com/os/388/2013/01/13/raypeytonx-jpg_062943.jpg

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl--ray-lewis--peyton-manning-share-special-moment-after-broncos-ravens-playoff-classic-062005410.html

PATS16N0
01-14-2013, 04:39 PM
Big deal. Which HOF quarterback WOULDN'T wait for a defensive first ballot HOF'er they've played a bunch of times when he was retiring?

And what do these pity stories have to do with where Peyton will place all time?

Atlanta Dan
01-14-2013, 04:48 PM
Big deal. Which HOF quarterback WOULDN'T wait for a defensive first ballot HOF'er they've played a bunch of times when he was retiring?

And what do these pity stories have to do with where Peyton will place all time?

Because you do not see why that is a big deal is why you do not get why if Brady or Belichick were on fire most fans outside of New England would not piss on them to put out the fire and why the Giants wins over the Pats were so popular

Get me the links when Brady dropped by the locker room to congratulate Peyton in 2006, Eli in 2007 or Eli in 2011

Thanks for confirming the arrogance associated with the Patriots and their fan base:drink:

silver & black
01-14-2013, 05:06 PM
The word choke comes to mind...lol.

Fire Arians
01-14-2013, 05:21 PM
we all know how ray lewis will be remembered

http://steelersfever.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1573&stc=1&d=1358202034

fansince'76
01-14-2013, 05:25 PM
Because you do not see why that is a big deal is why you do not get why if Brady or Belichick were on fire most fans outside of New England would not piss on them to put out the fire and why the Giants wins over the Pats were so popular

Get me the links when Brady dropped by the locker room to congratulate Peyton in 2006, Eli in 2007 or Eli in 2011

Thanks for confirming the arrogance associated with the Patriots and their fan base:drink:

Not to mention the entire motivation behind starting this thread was to engage in schadenfreude and to ease the inferiority complex Patriots fans have ALWAYS had when it came to Manning. If the guy truly sucked as much as they like to claim and if they had any doubts as to who the better QB is, they wouldn't be on opposing team's message boards continually trying to hammer the "See guys! Doncha think Brady's better? Doncha? Doncha?" message across.

I hope the Ravens dickstomp the Patriots next Sunday and then I hope they lose to the Falcons in the Super Bowl.

NSMaster56
01-14-2013, 05:27 PM
In fact, I have never seen an NFL player whose media-legacy and on-the-field play have such a wide disconnect from one another.

Brett Favre.

dez09231
01-14-2013, 05:31 PM
The Colts were guaranteed a post-season spot just about every season. All they had to do was beat up expansion teams.




Since the realignment in 2002 up until the 10-11 playoffs, since Peyton sat out the next year, the AFC East has sent 13 teams to the playoffs. In that same time period, the AFC South sent 15 teams to the playoffs.

There were 6 spots not represented by the Colts or Patriots in both eras in each division.

The 6 South teams that were in the playoffs were a combined 69-27, or a .718 winning percentage, and the Eastern teams were a combined 50-46, or a .520 winning percentage.


Empirical evidence suggests that not only has the AFC South had better quality teams overall, but that there have also been more quality teams in the South than the East during that time.

So if Peyton was "given" the division over and again, then Brady was served his as breakfast in bed.

vasteeler
01-14-2013, 06:00 PM
The Colts were guaranteed a post-season spot just about every season. All they had to do was beat up expansion teams.

.

says the guy whos division includes the likes of the jets, bills and dophins
:coffee:

GMU Steeler
01-15-2013, 01:14 AM
says the guy whos division includes the likes of the jets, bills and dophins
:coffee:

Yeah no kidding. You can't claim Peyton benefited from a weak division when you've had the likes of those as competition. Anyhow, to answer the original question. I think he'll still be remembered as a great one as he should but he'll also be remembered for his failures also as he should be. I'm not sure about Brady. What kind of amuses me is he's put up his best offensive numbers in years he hasn't won the SB. When the Pats were a more balanced team, that's when he was winning the SBs with them. I'd still take Montana or Elway with a game on the line over Brady. That doesn't mean Brady sucks fwiw but I'd probably take those two over Brady if I could have any QB from any time to start a team.

BrandonCarr39
01-15-2013, 11:18 AM
Yeah no kidding. You can't claim Peyton benefited from a weak division when you've had the likes of those as competition. Anyhow, to answer the original question. I think he'll still be remembered as a great one as he should but he'll also be remembered for his failures also as he should be. I'm not sure about Brady. What kind of amuses me is he's put up his best offensive numbers in years he hasn't won the SB. When the Pats were a more balanced team, that's when he was winning the SBs with them. I'd still take Montana or Elway with a game on the line over Brady. That doesn't mean Brady sucks fwiw but I'd probably take those two over Brady if I could have any QB from any time to start a team.

Montana had that very rotten playoff loss against Minnesota in 1987. Niners were the #1 seed playing against an above average team(who happened to play their 2 best games against them and New Orleans in the WC round). He was also benched in that game for Steve Young. He also wasn't any better in those 3 Giants playoff losses.

Elway lost his first 3 SBs by blowouts. BTW, he DID have a running game in the 3rd SB, and the 2nd SB was against an above average "winning ugly" Redskins team.

Ultimately, it's hard to win SBs.