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View Full Version : 5 accidentally shot at gun shows in North Carolina, Ohio, Indiana


Vis
01-20-2013, 06:09 AM
By Vignesh Ramachandran, Staff Writer, NBC News
Five people were wounded in accidents at gun shows in North Carolina, Ohio and Indiana on Saturday, according to authorities.

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In Raleigh, N.C., authorities said three people were wounded when a loaded shotgun accidentally discharged at the Dixie Gun and Knife Show at the N.C. State Fairgrounds.

Officials say Gary Lynn Wilson, 36, was having his shotgun checked before entering the show when the incident happened. He was unzipping his 12-gauge shotgun's case when it accidentally fired birdshot pellets, hitting three people, The News & Observer in Raleigh reported. Wilson was planning on privately selling the gun at the show, according to NBC affiliate WNCN.

The three victims, Janet Hoover, Linwood Hester and Jake Alderman, were hit, respectively, in the right torso, left hand and right hand, WNCN reported. They were taken to the hospital for non-life threatening injuries.

Witness Daniel Peadan told WNCN he was about to enter the building, when he heard a loud pop: "The people right there at the door, a lot of them ran ... They scattered because it was chaotic."

"This was an accidental discharge," said Brian Long, a spokesman for the North Carolina Department of Agriculture & Consumer Services, in a statement.

The show closed early Saturday because of the shooting, according to The News & Observer. When the show reopens Sunday private gun sales will not be permitted, but only sales by licensed dealers at the show are allowed, Long said. By Saturday evening, the event's website clearly stipulated: "No personal firearms are to be brought into the show."

The Wake County Sheriff's Department is investigating Saturday's incident, and it's not clear yet whether there are pending charges, according to Long.

In Medina, Ohio, an exhibitor at a local gun show was opening a box containing a gun when the weapon went off, striking his partner, who was sitting next to him, NBC station WKYC of Cleveland reported.

The victim suffered non-life threatening injuries in the arm and thigh and was taken to a hospital.

Police told WKYC the shooting was accidental, and a man who attended the show had sold that gun to the exhibitor.

In Indianapolis, state police said a 54-year-old man was loading his .45 caliber semi-automatic gun when he shot himself in the hand, The Associated Press reported. The victim, Emory L. Cozee, had been leaving the Indy 1500 Gun and Knife show at the state fairgrounds, officials told the AP. Loaded personal weapons are not permitted inside this show, according to the AP.

Cozee was hospitalized. Police told the AP no charges will be filed and the shooting was accidental.

These incidents all happened on the first "National Gun Appreciation Day," which was organized by Political Media, a Republican consulting firm.

In Raleigh, police say around 200 gun-rights supporters marched around the legislative building in downtown Raleigh on Saturday, The News & Observer reported.

Across the country Saturday, there were similar rallies by gun-rights advocates. In Brooksville, Fla., about 1,000 people gathered holding signs like "Stop the Gun Grabbers," Reuters reported. In Denver, just miles away from the scene of the July 2012 movie theater massacre, about 500 people were outside the state capitol rallying, according to Reuters.

The attack on an elementary school in Newtown, Conn., that left 20 first-graders and six staffers dead in December has sparked a new debate over gun control. Last week, President Barack Obama proposed new gun controls to reduce violence.

Firearms expert Greg A. Danas told NBC News while it's up to a gun show owner to determine safety rules, he recommends measures like inspecting guns and ensuring firing pins are disabled.

"Even people with the best intentions, screw up, occasionally make mistakes," Danas said.

Vis
01-20-2013, 06:14 AM
The only thing that could prevent these tragedies is more guns.

Vis
01-20-2013, 06:23 AM
Armed School Security Guard Clark Arnold Leaves Gun Unattended In Student Bathroom

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/18/armed-school-security-gua_n_2505747.html




Then you have this:
http://localtvkdvr.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/joseph-kelley-carries-and-assault-rifle-in-plain-view-at-a-utah-jcpenny-on-jan-17-2013-photo-ktsu-again.jpg?w=370

If you were in that store how do you know this guy isn't a crazed gunman trying to beat the last guy's tally? How do you know he isn't just a dumb ass who will accidentally shoot you like the idiots at the gun shows?

SteelCityMom
01-20-2013, 09:23 AM
Armed School Security Guard Clark Arnold Leaves Gun Unattended In Student Bathroom

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/18/armed-school-security-gua_n_2505747.html




Then you have this:
http://localtvkdvr.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/joseph-kelley-carries-and-assault-rifle-in-plain-view-at-a-utah-jcpenny-on-jan-17-2013-photo-ktsu-again.jpg?w=370

If you were in that store how do you know this guy isn't a crazed gunman trying to beat the last guy's tally? How do you know he isn't just a dumb ass who will accidentally shoot you like the idiots at the gun shows?

Because his hands aren't on his weapon and he appears to be in a checkout line paying for something? :noidea: Were liberals THIS afraid of legal gun owners before Colorado and Newton? I certainly never heard such a clamor before that. Two people go off the rails, and suddenly everyone is a potential nut. Talk about living your life in fear.

I heard about the gun show thing. How tragic. :chuckle: Luckily, no one opened fire and mowed down 50 people. It was that close, apparently.

Yes, accidents are going to happen. 5 people got injured out of thousands (maybe tens of thousands) that attended those shows nationwide yesterday. That isn't even a statistic worth talking about.

Vis
01-20-2013, 09:30 AM
Because his hands aren't on his weapon and he appears to be in a checkout line paying for something? :noidea:

I heard about the gun show thing. How tragic. :chuckle: Luckily, no one opened fire and mowed down 50 people. It was that close, apparently.

Yes, accidents are going to happen. 5 people got injured out of thousands (maybe tens of thousands) that attended those shows nationwide yesterday. That isn't even a statistic worth talking about.

5 accidentally shot out of 10,000 isn't significant? Heinz field holds 65,000. If everyone was carrying at the next game you attend and only 32 are shot (higher if people, God forbid, drink at the game) you are fine and will feel safe with your family there. Odds in your favor and all.

SteelCityMom
01-20-2013, 09:48 AM
5 accidentally shot out of 10,000 isn't significant? Heinz field holds 65,000. If everyone was carrying at the next game you attend and only 32 are shot (higher if people, God forbid, drink at the game) you are fine and will feel safe with your family there. Odds in your favor and all.

No, it's actually not significant. That's not a valid comparison either, because you know for a fact that not everyone is going to carry a gun at Heinz field. You're creating a straw man argument.

If you wanted to even make a valid argument here, you would say this is one of the reasons the gun show loopholes should be closed (which isn't limited to gun shows, gun show is just a buzzword). And I agree that they should be closed. Gun shows should be limited to FFL sellers. You'll never (or very rarely) catch one of them trying to sell a loaded shotgun (the guy selling it most likely forgot). The other two, who were openly loading their pistols, should be criminally punished in some way (I'm guessing their not stark raving criminals, so I'd lay a hefty fine on them for being stupid). These are realistic solutions.

Vis
01-20-2013, 09:59 AM
No, it's actually not significant. That's not a valid comparison either, because you know for a fact that not everyone is going to carry a gun at Heinz field. You're creating a straw man argument.

If you wanted to even make a valid argument here, you would say this is one of the reasons the gun show loopholes should be closed (which isn't limited to gun shows, gun show is just a buzzword). And I agree that they should be closed. Gun shows should be limited to FFL sellers. You'll never (or very rarely) catch one of them trying to sell a loaded shotgun (the guy selling it most likely forgot). The other two, who were openly loading their pistols, should be criminally punished in some way (I'm guessing their not stark raving criminals, so I'd lay a hefty fine on them for being stupid). These are realistic solutions.

I'lll leave for now how callous I think your statistics comment was. My argument is that there are too many stupid people to have guns everywhere. in anyone's hands. I certainly wouldn't let them in my store if I had one. And some argue you should be able to take them anywhere, even into bars and clubs.

So tell me what the penalty should be for the owner if he accidentally kills someone in a public place. How about if he just mames someone? If your kid is shot does it help to know it was just some HS dropout trying to feel powerful by carrying a 357 instead of a "stark raving criminal?"

SteelCityMom
01-20-2013, 10:00 AM
At least the gun show in NC got the message quick. This is how gun shows should be. While you'll never see a massacre at a gun show, I do understand that the loophole needs closed. Not just because people can be stupid and forgetful, but private sellers don't do background checks. This is wrong.

The show closed early Saturday because of the shooting, according to The News & Observer. When the show reopens Sunday private gun sales will not be permitted, but only sales by licensed dealers at the show are allowed, Long said. By Saturday evening, the event's website clearly stipulated: "No personal firearms are to be brought into the show."

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/19/16603029-5-accidentally-shot-at-gun-shows-in-north-carolina-ohio-indiana?lite

And OMG...not a common sense response! That's heinous!

Firearms expert Greg A. Danas told NBC News while it's up to a gun show owner to determine safety rules, he recommends measures like inspecting guns and ensuring firing pins are disabled.
"Even people with the best intentions, screw up, occasionally make mistakes," Danas said.

(same link)

SteelCityMom
01-20-2013, 10:04 AM
I'lll leave for now how callous I think your statistics comment was. My argument is that there are too many stupid people to have guns everywhere. in anyone's hands. I certainly wouldn't let them in my store if I had one. And some argue you should be able to take them anywhere, even into bars and clubs.

So tell me what the penalty should be for the owner if he accidentally kills someone in a public place. How about if he just mames someone? If your kid is shot does it help to know it was just some HS dropout trying to feel powerful by carrying a 357 instead of a "stark raving criminal?"

Why are you even arguing that first point? No rational person wants that. Nobody I've ever come into contact with at least. Why is it that when people argue that those who are legally cleared to own and carry firearms should retain their 2nd amendment rights to do so, people against it automatically jump to the conclusion that we think anyone should be allowed to carry anything, anywhere. That's simply not the case.

I don't need to tell you what I think the penalties should be for those things. There are already laws that cover that. If you think those laws should be stricter, that's fine. Talk to those in your local community about getting those laws changed.

I won't even dignify your last comment with a response. It's even more callous than my statistic comment.

Vis
01-20-2013, 10:10 AM
Why are you even arguing that first point? No rational person wants that. Nobody I've ever come into contact with at least. Why is it that when people argue for people who are legally cleared to own and carry firearms should retain their 2nd amendment rights to do so, people against is automatically jump to the conclusion that we think anyone should be allowed to carry anything, anywhere. That's simply not the case.

I don't need to tell you what I think the penalties should be for those things. There are already laws that cover that. If you think those laws should be stricter, that's fine. Talk to those in your local community about getting those laws changed.

I won't even dignify your last comment with a response. It's even more callous than my statistic comment.

My comment was hypothetical yours was about real wounded people you don't give a shit about. Or, as you put, are not worth talking about.

But moving on to you not believing that anyone should be able to carry anywhere - tell me specifically the restrictions and limitation you endorse. Who can carry and who can't? Where is it ok and where is it not? Who decides and how is it enforced?

SteelCityMom
01-20-2013, 10:26 AM
My comment was hypothetical yours was about real wounded people you don't give a shit about. Or, as you put, are not worth talking about.

But moving on to you not believing that anyone should be able to carry anywhere - tell me specifically the restrictions and limitation you endorse. Who can carry and who can't? Where is it ok and where is it not? Who decides and how is it enforced?

No, you assume I don't give a shit. I care that those people were injured...but let's be real. They were accidents they brought about in their own stupidity. And they aren't all that common.

You want a hypothetical? Why don't you care about the hundreds that die or are maimed in car accidents daily? Many at the hands of drunk drivers? Why do we continue to allow bars and clubs to be legal? Why are there cars that are even made to go double the speed limit? Oh shit, none of that is hypothetical... sorry, that was my strawman.

This serves no point though...neither of us is unfeeling. I'm sure we both care about human life...I just don't think ignoring realistic options is the way to go.

Obviously convicted felons and the mentally ill should not be allowed to own firearms. It's not up to me to say where is ok and where is not ok. If you have a private business, and you don't want people carrying firearms, that's your right. I think schools should have properly trained armed guards, if their community feels it necessary. People in their local communities should decide, for the most part, how these laws are enforced (when not dealing with something like national background checks).

The problems we have now stem from the government’s inability to actually monitor the practices they created.

The only thing I would really change is better enforcement of the laws already in place. Although I would add that anyone looking to buy a gun should have to list who all lives in the household, and if they are convicted felons, or mentally ill (I wouldn't even be opposed to household background checks). I would reinstate the mandatory 7 day waiting period. I know checks can be done at lightening speed now...but there's nothing anyone needs a gun for that they can't wait a few days. It allows a cooling off period.

I would put stricter regulations and fines on gun stores who don't properly follow the laws. It's too easy to get an FFL nowadays, and these regulations would do away with little po-dunk shops that might sneak under the radar.

Concealed Carry classes are a joke. Finding a reputable one in my area was not easy. If you want to properly teach people how to safely use a firearm, then start having proper trainers. All gun owners will benefit from this and appreciate it. I'd go as far to say that you should have to take these classes just to own a gun. And I think you should have to update your training every 1-4 years.

Vis
01-20-2013, 10:45 AM
I'll give you mine.

Gun ownership needs a license. The license requires real training and proof of competency. There would be different levels for different types of of weapons, like CDLs as a parallel. Some weapons would have need requirements similar to Israeli requirements.

Transferring ownership between private individuals requires both to have the appropriate license and would require documentation similar to selling a car.

I would have special shipping requirements.

If you ever accidentally discharge a weapon in public, you lose you license forever to go with a hefty fine. Any damage done is your responsibility. You pay for the property damage. You pay for medical expenses, pain and suffering and lifetime disabilities, or the wrongful death. No defense, this is pure strict liability.

Criminally, if you cause death or serious bodily injury with a firearm, it's a felony. Accident is no defense. Obviously self defense still is but we're talking about unintentional firing here.

Carrying a firearm under the influence is a felony.

Carrying weapons on private property, including all businesses, stores, malls, etc.. is up to the ownership but it must be posted if it is ok. No posting means it's restricted.

I'm a gun owner and none of these would change a thing about my use.

SteelCityMom
01-20-2013, 11:02 AM
I'll give you mine.

Gun ownership needs a license. The license requires real training and proof of competency. There would be different levels for different types of of weapons, like CDLs as a parallel. Some weapons would have need requirements similar to Israeli requirements.

That can be realistically done...I think all people should have to at least get permits. I'm all for training and proof of competency. Competent trainers are a must too. You wouldn't believe the level of ignorance that abounds in these classes. There are already different levels for different types of weapons (full auto are class III), but I understand the need to expand that. This is a workable solution, IMO.

Transferring ownership between private individuals requires both to have the appropriate license and would require documentation similar to selling a car.

Completely agree. This is the "gun show" loophole. It applies to flea markets and people's basements as well. You only have to "occasionally" sell weapons to not have to do a background check or have proper paperwork. Everybody and their mothers should say "What the hell is this crap!?!"

I would have special shipping requirements.

I believe there already are in most cases? I could be wrong, but I'm not sure exactly what you mean in this regard.

If you ever accidentally discharge a weapon in public, you lose you license forever to go with a hefty fine. Any damage done is your responsibility. You pay for the property damage. You pay for medical expenses, pain and suffering and lifetime disabilities, or the wrongful death. No defense, this is pure strict liability.

Criminally, if you cause death or serious bodily injury with a firearm, it's a felony. Accident is no defense. Obviously self defense still is but we're talking about unintentional firing here.

Most of this I would leave open to local laws. It's not the federal gov'ts job to police everyone. That's why we have local politicians and law enforcement. That's not to say that I don't completely disagree with you, but that's something that should be done on a local level.

Carrying a firearm under the influence is a felony.

Again, this should be left up to local/state law enforcement, like most other laws.

Carrying weapons on private property, including all businesses, stores, malls, etc.. is up to the ownership but it must be posted if it is ok. No posting means it's restricted.

I don't see why the posting matters that much, but ok. Criminals will just know whether or not to look for a sign still lol.

Vis
01-20-2013, 11:08 AM
Shipping - done by approved carriers with bonded employees. Legal guns becoming street guns is a problem. They shouldn't be shipped in the same truck as the Amazon delivery.

The laws I propose are state laws but these are the ones I would say a minimum for every state. For PA, would you want them?

Vis
01-20-2013, 11:12 AM
That can be realistically done...I think all people should have to at least get permits. I'm all for training and proof of competency. Competent trainers are a must too. You wouldn't believe the level of ignorance that abounds in these classes. There are already different levels for different types of weapons (full auto are class III), but I understand the need to expand that. This is a workable solution, IMO.



Completely agree. This is the "gun show" loophole. It applies to flea markets and people's basements as well. You only have to "occasionally" sell weapons to not have to do a background check or have proper paperwork. Everybody and their mothers should say "What the hell is this crap!?!"



I believe there already are in most cases? I could be wrong, but I'm not sure exactly what you mean in this regard.



Most of this I would leave open to local laws. It's not the federal gov'ts job to police everyone. That's why we have local politicians and law enforcement. That's not to say that I don't completely disagree with you, but that's something that should be done on a local level.



Again, this should be left up to local/state law enforcement, like most other laws.



I don't see why the posting matters that much, but ok. Criminals will just know whether or not to look for a sign still lol.

Posting lets customers know. I'm not going into a bar that allows guns.

SteelCityMom
01-20-2013, 11:19 AM
Shipping - done by approved carriers with bonded employees. Legal guns becoming street guns is a problem. They shouldn't be shipped in the same truck as the Amazon delivery.

The laws I propose are state laws but these are the ones I would say a minimum for every state. For PA, would you want them?

Yeah, I can get behind the shipping.

Making those laws you mentioned minimum for every state would require federal enforcement of state laws, so I'm not for it in that respect.

As for PA? Not necessarily to the degree you are mentioning. There is currently no law whatsoever against being drunk and carrying a firearm. I would be remiss to make it a felony. I could see a DA going completely overboard with the law. I think it should be more like VA's laws, where if you are arrested for being drunk, and have a firearm, it's a misdemeanor, you have your license and permit stripped from you (along with a hefty fine), and you cannot apply for another one for at least 5 years. I think that would deter a lot of action.

I can agree with the accidental shooting laws. It should always be made a personal responsibility issue.

SteelCityMom
01-20-2013, 11:27 AM
Posting lets customers know. I'm not going into a bar that allows guns.

Right, I guess I get that. I just don't see it as that big of a deal to flip it the other way. If a place that doesn't allow guns has a sign, and anywhere that doesn't have a sign it's assumed that it's legal to carry, then people would just look for a sign still to know the difference. Have it either way you want, it'd still be easy enough to tell the difference. I don't really care either way.

SteelCityMom
01-20-2013, 11:31 AM
It's good to have this dialogue though. It's much better than mud slinging. Nothing is going to get fixed till both sides can calm down and talk rationally. (I know I'm just as much to blame sometimes :chuckle: )