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View Full Version : Lebeau Defenses not Championship Defenses


Steelers5895
01-21-2013, 10:24 AM
I know I am going to get killed for this but if you look at history, Dick Lebeau's defenses are not championship defenses. (Steel Curtain, Doomsday, 85 Bears, Bellicheck from the Giants and early Pat Years, 2000 Ravens).

Sure, he has 2 Super Bowl wins but for top regular season ranked defenses, none were dominant playoff/Super Bowl defenses. in fact you can go back to when he was the D Coordinator for the bengals.

The Steelers defense was helped a ton in Super Bowl 40 by documented poor officiating. Not saying we would have lost but Seattle would have made a better run of it.

Big Ben bailed out the defense in Super Bowl 43.

Packers had their way in Super Bowl 45.

Plus the 49ers were able to come back on his defense when he was in Cincy.

My point is, I am sick of the high regular season rankings and come playoffs whenever we play a high powered offense we can't stop them. In fact, Tebow tore this defense to shreds.

That being said, I think its time to go in a new direction. Add the fact his defenses are impossible for young players to grasp for 2-3 years, I dont see this changing.

I must rather see a 4-3 being run by a innovative young DC or a new style 3-4 in hopes to get us back to where we need quicker. As much as our offense was the problem in 2012, with Ben that can be fixed quick. The defense with its age and under-developing young players is going to continue to not pressure the qb, not creat turnovers, give up leads to lesser teams for a while.

harrison'samonster
01-21-2013, 10:26 AM
James Harrison 100 yrd int return! That defense in 2008 was GREAT!

Steelers5895
01-21-2013, 10:37 AM
James Harrison 100 yrd int return! That defense in 2008 was GREAT!


and after that play they should have shut it down like a great championship defense should. Arizona was demorilzed and it was a huge swing and in half 2 Arizona came back, took the league on long drives and long plays. Not to mention up until that play Arizona drove the field.

Great is what Steelers want to believe. Reality its not.

OX1947
01-21-2013, 11:06 AM
The Steelers defense was helped a ton in Super Bowl 40 by documented poor officiating. Not saying we would have lost but Seattle would have made a better run of it.

Both teams played like crap. The penalty calls became famous. That push off in the end zone was a push off, I still do not understand why people get so bent on that one. You wanna call Haggens penalty off, fine, the Seahawks got to the 2 yard line, they didnt score on that play. If you are going to use an excuse of, that play killed the Seahawks, that means you assumed they would score a TD after that. If that is the thinking process, then what makes you think Ben wouldnt have score on a 4th and inches when they called his TD run a TD? Cowher is on the mic saying he is going for it if its 4th, so, you can not have it both ways.


Big Ben bailed out the defense in Super Bowl 43.

Actually, the offense effed the defense in more ways then one in that game. The defense held 3 1,000 yard receiver and arguably the best Super Bowl QB, statistically, ever to 7 points through 3 quarters. Fitz was none existent for the first 3 quarter. That last drive and Fitz TD should have never happened had it not been for one of the worst winning centers in SB history holding in the end zone right before the game clinching one hip catch. So, if Hartwig doesn't hold on that play, Steelers win 20-14. Holding the Cardinals high powered offense to 14 points is pretty damn good too me.

Packers had their way in Super Bowl 45.


3 turnovers by the offense. All momentum from there, and one was a TD. 21 points from turnovers. Otherwise, Steelers defense allow 10 points.


Plus the 49ers were able to come back on his defense when he was in Cincy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJFOBI1cZaM


Sports is one play, one mistake, one catch or one drop from changing all of history. Some go your way, some don't. At the end of it all, the players make the plays or they don't, so blaming a coach who's great at what he does for mistakes his players make on one or two plays, is a little ignorant.

harrison'samonster
01-21-2013, 11:08 AM
and after that play they should have shut it down like a great championship defense should. Arizona was demorilzed and it was a huge swing and in half 2 Arizona came back, took the league on long drives and long plays. Not to mention up until that play Arizona drove the field.

Great is what Steelers want to believe. Reality its not.

Nobody can shut everybody down all the time. Arizona was playing lights out for those playoffs. Ppl want to discredit them, but with Warner and Fitz that team was playing out of this world good.

lloydwoodson
01-21-2013, 11:13 AM
Superbowl XL Seahawks scored 10 points.

Superbowl XLIII Cardinals scored 23 points - the defense scored 7 - allowed 16 point net. Not bad against a record-setting playoffs from Fitzgerald. Cardinals had scored more than 30 in 4 straight games.

Superbowl XLV Packers scored 24 (7 points from a pick 6 made 31). Packers scored 21 points off of 3 turnovers. A pick 6 and two drives that started on the GB 45.

harrison'samonster
01-21-2013, 11:15 AM
let's not forget that Seattle was the highest scoring team in the NFL that year we beat them, scoring 28 points per game.

lloydwoodson
01-21-2013, 11:17 AM
So 5895... this post isn't going so well for you. How is your post about rooting for the Ravens going? Or the one about possibly obtaining Demarcus Ware from the Cowboys going? :rofl:

wwhickok
01-21-2013, 11:20 AM
Yes I get that the Ravens are going to the Super Bowl. Yes I get that we shouldve won the division. But I also get that half our starters were injured at some point this season. LeBeau's defense not championship defense? So is that what happened 3 times in 9 years? (Granted we lost one of them to GB)

I think in the near future qe will move to.the 4-3. But then again...our LBs have always been our bread and butter. I like LeBeau. Im satisfied withnour season consideringnall the adversity we had to deal with. But I am also glad the FO is not satisfied.

VaDave
01-21-2013, 11:47 AM
I know I am going to get killed for this but if you look at history, Dick Lebeau's defenses are not championship defenses. (Steel Curtain, Doomsday, 85 Bears, Bellicheck from the Giants and early Pat Years, 2000 Ravens).

Sure, he has 2 Super Bowl wins but for top regular season ranked defenses, none were dominant playoff/Super Bowl defenses. in fact you can go back to when he was the D Coordinator for the bengals.

The Steelers defense was helped a ton in Super Bowl 40 by documented poor officiating. Not saying we would have lost but Seattle would have made a better run of it.

Big Ben bailed out the defense in Super Bowl 43.

Packers had their way in Super Bowl 45.

Plus the 49ers were able to come back on his defense when he was in Cincy.

My point is, I am sick of the high regular season rankings and come playoffs whenever we play a high powered offense we can't stop them. In fact, Tebow tore this defense to shreds.

That being said, I think its time to go in a new direction. Add the fact his defenses are impossible for young players to grasp for 2-3 years, I dont see this changing.

I must rather see a 4-3 being run by a innovative young DC or a new style 3-4 in hopes to get us back to where we need quicker. As much as our offense was the problem in 2012, with Ben that can be fixed quick. The defense with its age and under-developing young players is going to continue to not pressure the qb, not creat turnovers, give up leads to lesser teams for a while.


Just asking, but how many Superbowl winners did Buddy Ryan coach as an DC? How many has LeBeau?

I'll grant you, you aren't going to find too many defenses of the quality of our 70's Steelers today because for all preactical purposes, they've just about outlawed defense, realitively speaking.

The crazy thing is, LeBeau has probably coached in more Superbowls than any other coach besides Belicheck. Philidelphia ( under Vermeil) two at Cincinati, and 4
( if he was with us in 96) with the Steelers and two of thsioe Championships.

You may not like it, certainly, it's not everybody's cup of tea, but the dang thing is effective. It's been successful for over 3o years.

Speaking of Belicheck, how was his "Championship D" looking in the 3rd quarter yesterday?

FanSince72
01-21-2013, 11:50 AM
I know I am going to get killed for this but if you look at history, Dick Lebeau's defenses are not championship defenses. (Steel Curtain, Doomsday, 85 Bears, Bellicheck from the Giants and early Pat Years, 2000 Ravens).

Sure, he has 2 Super Bowl wins but for top regular season ranked defenses, none were dominant playoff/Super Bowl defenses. in fact you can go back to when he was the D Coordinator for the bengals.

The Steelers defense was helped a ton in Super Bowl 40 by documented poor officiating. Not saying we would have lost but Seattle would have made a better run of it.

Big Ben bailed out the defense in Super Bowl 43.

Packers had their way in Super Bowl 45.

Plus the 49ers were able to come back on his defense when he was in Cincy.

My point is, I am sick of the high regular season rankings and come playoffs whenever we play a high powered offense we can't stop them. In fact, Tebow tore this defense to shreds.

That being said, I think its time to go in a new direction. Add the fact his defenses are impossible for young players to grasp for 2-3 years, I dont see this changing.

I must rather see a 4-3 being run by a innovative young DC or a new style 3-4 in hopes to get us back to where we need quicker. As much as our offense was the problem in 2012, with Ben that can be fixed quick. The defense with its age and under-developing young players is going to continue to not pressure the qb, not creat turnovers, give up leads to lesser teams for a while.

My biggest problem with LeBeau defenses is not that they aren't good, but that they're not dynamic.

Today's really good defenses are able to morph into whatever is necessary to counter another team's offense and most can do so within a few series. But LeBeau seems to set up a defense as a sort of "One-Size-Fits-All" crew and he thinks that minor adjustments will be all that's necessary if the basic package isn't working.

I think that's an old-fashioned way of looking at it because today's game happens much faster and offenses are showing more diversity. The better teams seem to arrive on game day with more than just a single game plan and are not afraid of changing gears in mid game and it takes more than a few "adjustments" to compete against such diversity. Often it's required to tear up a game plan and install a significantly different one and LeBeau doesn't seem to have the ability or desire to do that.

Steelers5895
01-21-2013, 11:52 AM
So 5895... this post isn't going so well for you. How is your post about rooting for the Ravens going? Or the one about possibly obtaining Demarcus Ware from the Cowboys going? :rofl:

anyone who thinks our defenses are GREAT are homers. The 93-95 Steelers defenses were great compared to this run we had.

GREAT defenses, CHAMPIONSHIP defenses make up for turnovers, etc.

When we start thinking about great championship defenses no one thinks of the Lebeau defenses. They are NEVER in the conversation.

So if that is the case, why do we insist on keeping this complicated, unfriendly to rookie defensive scheme?

as for the insults, typical of a newbie Steeler fan, can't take debate, needs to do exactly the childish thing you did.

grow up.

teegre
01-21-2013, 11:55 AM
anyone who thinks our defenses are GREAT are homers. The 93-95 Steelers defenses were great compared to this run we had.

GREAT defenses, CHAMPIONSHIP defenses make up for turnovers, etc.

When we start thinking about great championship defenses no one thinks of the Lebeau defenses. They are NEVER in the conversation.

So if that is the case, why do we insist on keeping this complicated, unfriendly to rookie defensive scheme?

as for the insults, typical of a newbie Steeler fan, can't take debate, needs to do exactly the childish thing you did.

grow up.

Wait... the 93-95 teams were championship defenses.

Championship defenses.

CHAMPIONSHIP defenses.

You do know that actually winning the SuperBowl is what constitutes a "championship."

Steelers5895
01-21-2013, 11:56 AM
What you are mising is yes the Steelers won the championships but NOT because anything special our defense did.

Steelers5895
01-21-2013, 11:57 AM
Wait... the 93-95 teams were championship defenses.

Championship defenses.

CHAMPIONSHIP defenses.

You do know that actually winning the SuperBowl is what constitutes a "championship."

Read the post, I said GREAT in 93-95, not championship.

wow, you guys will post anything to discount anything anyone says against our beloved defenses. comical, learn to read, not selectively either.

VaDave
01-21-2013, 12:12 PM
LeBeau makes plenty of on field adjustments. Ever notice how many times our opponent's 1st drive is fairly successful, but then nothing much happens afterwards??

One LeBeau's D is not, never has been, a shut down defense. In order to have a "Shut Down Defense" you have to take on more risk of giving up a big play. I'm sure this is going to impress you, but the fact is, when averaged out over the course of a season, his system works, as dull as it is.

Actually, I find that his defense is dynamic, but make no mistake, he is more than willing to give up ground, on exactly those kind of plays that make us think his D is not so hot, to acheive a better end result.

Think of it like this, it doesn't make sense to win the battle, if it causes you to lose the war.

Part of the problem we were having with the lack of dynamic plays, was Harrison ( clearly not the James Harrison of 2006-2009 even though the number is the same), and Hoaf-a-Loaf Woodley @ 30lbs overweight, with a bad hammie, were not generating much pocket pressure.

The other issue is when your all world safety ,is out for 6 games or so, and you are forced to play a couple of kids off the street, you have no choice but to play even more conservatively. That too effected our turnover ratio profoundly.

VaDave
01-21-2013, 12:14 PM
Let me also add that over the last ten years, Goodell has outlawed defense. Lloyd would have been permanently banned from the league if he played now. I also don't see any Rod Woodsons on the team either....

VaDave
01-21-2013, 12:16 PM
What you are mising is yes the Steelers won the championships but NOT because anything special our defense did.

That is totally absurd statement. "ANYTHING??? Nothing at all??? Are you serious?

teegre
01-21-2013, 12:31 PM
Read the post, I said GREAT in 93-95, not championship.

wow, you guys will post anything to discount anything anyone says against our beloved defenses. comical, learn to read, not selectively either.

Exactly. The 93-95 defenses did not win championships; the 2005 & 2008 defenses did. Thank you for finally getting the point.

lloydwoodson
01-21-2013, 12:32 PM
What you are mising is yes the Steelers won the championships but NOT because anything special our defense did.

No you're right- the top ranked defenses in 2005 and 2008 that allowed 16.1 and 13.9 points per game had nothing to do with the Steelers success. :banging:

And a 100 yard int return for a TD in the superbowl by Harrison and a 40 yard int return for a TD by Polamalu in the AFC Championship in 2008 weren't anything special. :banging:

Who won the Superbowls then? Ben? By himself? Throwing for 1 TD and 3 INTs in his 2 superbowl wins? I know you're a Roethlisberger homer- your kind always is- I just want to hear you say it.

lipps83
01-21-2013, 12:40 PM
LeBeau makes plenty of on field adjustments. Ever notice how many times our opponent's 1st drive is fairly successful, but then nothing much happens afterwards??

You forgot to add "until the 4th quarter".

Lebeau's defense is historically known for giving up late leads. Starting with the Super Bowl against the 49'ers.

It happened against the Cardinals in the Super Bowl.

It happened 5x this years against the super great #1 ranked defense (total yards only) we had. Half of the offenses on this list are deplorable.

Raiders
Titans
Chiefs
Cowboys
Bengals

desertsteel
01-21-2013, 12:45 PM
Sure, he has 2 Super Bowl wins but
You say that so casually that it's laughable :rofl:

Steelers5895
01-21-2013, 12:56 PM
You forgot to add "until the 4th quarter".

Lebeau's defense is historically known for giving up late leads. Starting with the Super Bowl against the 49'ers.

It happened against the Cardinals in the Super Bowl.

It happened 5x this years against the super great #1 ranked defense (total yards only) we had. Half of the offenses on this list are deplorable.

Raiders
Titans
Chiefs
Cowboys
Bengals

Championship defenses don't. i am not saying the defenses weren't good, but they are not championship defenses, when i say that i mean we won because of the defense. In all those runs, our defense didnt stand out. it did enough.

that being said, its not any type of defense that stands out so why not change it?

its gotten progressively worse and easier to move the ball on and does not come of with that big stop when needed.

its not a dominant defense

call me names, pick selective points to dwell on but the bottom line is this is not a championship defense, its a good one but not great and not worth the complexity that stunts the growth of all our 1st round picks.

SteelersCanada
01-21-2013, 12:56 PM
He's a defensive genius. His ideology needs to be updated, though. Not letting rookies start is something that needs to be fixed, especially if we draft someone like Dion Jordan or Sam Montgomery. If his scheme is too complicated for rookies to understand, then we have a red flag. Why does it take 3 years for a rookie to fully understand the key concepts and ideology behind his book, but 31 other defenses are easy to pick up and excel with rookies at the helm? It's starting to look like he's playing favoritism with his veterans, no matter how unproductive they are.

Also, don't punish success. Let the DEs and our NT blow shit up at the line of scrimmage - don't hinder progress. This isn't 2005 - the NFL has changed. DEs are no longer space-eaters and are athletic and agile enough to get around blocks and get sacks themselves. Asking them to be overweight but strong to stop the run is an outdated scheme.

Change the ideology or draft new personnel and change the scheme. Our guys are good enough to be putting up huge sack numbers, but are hindered and punished when they make plays. What other team punishes their NT for getting a sack? It's a ridiculous ideology.

lloydwoodson
01-21-2013, 12:57 PM
You forgot to add "until the 4th quarter".

Lebeau's defense is historically known for giving up late leads. Starting with the Super Bowl against the 49'ers.

It happened against the Cardinals in the Super Bowl.

It happened 5x this years against the super great #1 ranked defense (total yards only) we had. Half of the offenses on this list are deplorable.

Raiders
Titans
Chiefs
Cowboys
Bengals

You are holding the Bengals inability to stop Joe Montana 30 years ago in the superbowl against LeBeau? You know that Joe Montana was pretty good right?

Steelers defense held the historically prolific Cardinals passing attack to 23 points and got 7 back themselves- and who won that game?

You are seriously including the Steelers giving up 6 points to the Bengals as losing the game for the Steelers??? :banging:

The Steelers held the Chiefs to 13 points. :banging:

The Titans were held to 16 (unless you seriously hold the defense accountable for not stopping the Titans on a 1 yard TD drive). :banging:

Ike Taylor was out for the Cowboys game and Lewis was hurt too. Enter Golden and Victorian against the 3rd best pass offense in the NFL. :banging:

Do you people even watch the games? There were just as many injuries on the defensive side of the ball as the offensive side of the ball. The difference is the Steelers finished 6th in points allowed and 22nd in points scored.

lipps83
01-21-2013, 01:27 PM
You are holding the Bengals inability to stop Joe Montana 30 years ago in the superbowl against LeBeau? You know that Joe Montana was pretty good right?.

You completely missed my point. My sole point being that his defenses have HISTORICALLY given up 4TH QUARTER LEADS. I am not talking about the full games.

This was the first big one that caught some attention and then some people started to realize a pattern.

Steelers defense held the historically prolific Cardinals passing attack to 23 points and got 7 back themselves- and who won that game?

So what? That doesn't change the fact the Cardinals scored 14 of those points in the 4TH QUARTER.

You are seriously including the Steelers giving up 6 points to the Bengals as losing the game for the Steelers??? :banging:

No, it wasn't the only problem. However, the inability of the defense to make any type of stop on the Bengals last drive in the 4TH QUARTER, allowing them to kick a field goal, is a problem.

The Steelers held the Chiefs to 13 points. :banging:

The Chiefs going into that game had the worst offensive output since 1929. That's a hell of a long time ago. Again, when the game was on the line the Chiefs and Dan Marino drove right down in the 4TH QUARTER and tied the game to send it into overtime. Never should have gotten to that point. A great defense doesn't allow the worst offense in over 80 years to drive the field to tie.

The Titans were held to 16 (unless you seriously hold the defense accountable for not stopping the Titans on a 1 yard TD drive). :banging:

No, I was referring to the 10 points the Titans scored in last 5 minutes of the 4TH QUARTER.

Ike Taylor was out for the Cowboys game and Lewis was hurt too. Enter Golden and Victorian against the 3rd best pass offense in the NFL. :banging:

Every team deals with injury problems, don't make excuses. The Cowboys tied the game in the 4TH QUARTER, however, there was still 6 minutes left in the game, so it was unLebeau like to have the other team score with that much time left on the clock.

Do you people even watch the games? There were just as many injuries on the defensive side of the ball as the offensive side of the ball. The difference is the Steelers finished 6th in points allowed and 22nd in points scored.

You can bang your head all you want but you completely missed my point.

Steelers5895
01-21-2013, 01:36 PM
Lets go back 20 years, to Super Bowl 25 when offenses started to reall blow it up. I say this Steelers run, our defense is probably in the lower 3rd.

Here is my criteria. Did the defense dominate by getting sacks, turnovers, crucial stops and the game never really being in question. To me that is the difference between a championship defense and a defense that was part of the championship teams. They didnt let infirior teams in the game.

1990 Giants- yes
Redskins- no
Dallas 3 super bowls- yes
49ers in 1994- yes
Packers- no
Broncos for 2- yes
Rams- no
Ravens- yes
Patriots- yes rams, yes eagles, no carolina
Tampa- yes
Colts- no
Giants in 2- yes
Saints- yes
Packers- yes

All the ones I said yes to had crucial turnovers, sacks or held down a top offense.

I just never felt in any of these games they were going to clamp down, hold the offense in check, get the crucial sack or turnover. The defense never took control of any game. One splash play only in 3 games doesnt make a championship defense to me.

desertsteel
01-21-2013, 01:38 PM
We can all make statistics say whatever we want them to say..

desertsteel
01-21-2013, 01:40 PM
You forgot to add "until the 4th quarter".

Lebeau's defense is historically known for giving up late leads. Starting with the Super Bowl against the 49'ers.

It happened against the Cardinals in the Super Bowl.

It happened 5x this years against the super great #1 ranked defense (total yards only) we had. Half of the offenses on this list are deplorable.

Raiders
Titans
Chiefs
Cowboys
Bengals

NEWSFLASH: We sucked in every phase of the game this year!

Steelers5895
01-21-2013, 01:49 PM
We can all make statistics say whatever we want them to say..

right and statistics always rank this defnese in the top 5. reality its mediocre at best

harrison'samonster
01-21-2013, 01:51 PM
right and statistics always rank this defnese in the top 5. reality its mediocre at best

mediocre? that's quite a stretch. If you don't classify Lebeau's SB defenses as Championship that's one thing. OK. You have your own definition.

But mediocre?

desertsteel
01-21-2013, 01:55 PM
right and statistics always rank this defnese in the top 5. reality its mediocre at best
The rankings are what they are. We were first in YARDS ALLOWED. That's only one barometer. Doesn't mean we gave up the fewest points, had the most sacks or created the most turnovers. Those are equally as important.

Steelers5895
01-21-2013, 01:56 PM
I would say the last 5 seasons they were mediocre at best. They have gotten progressively worse since super bowl 43.

in 2009 they blew how many leads? just like this year to below average to bad teams. No big plays at all in Super Bowl 45. Killed by Tebow. BLown leads this year to bad teams like oakland and tennessee not to mention the better teams they were in position to beat.

how would you describe it?

Steelers5895
01-21-2013, 01:58 PM
The rankings are what they are. We were first in YARDS ALLOWED. That's only one barometer. Doesn't mean we gave up the fewest points, had the most sacks or created the most turnovers. Those are equally as important.

no those are more important as they are game changers. Give me an opportunistic defense that creates turnovers and gets sacks , knowing it will give up yards then what we have.

those type defenses give their offense a lot more opportunities with the ball and give up a lot less leads.

harrison'samonster
01-21-2013, 02:01 PM
well, as I've already said, I would describe that 2008 defense as Championship quality. Since then they haven't played up to that, but definitely better than mediocre.

And as far as your original post goes, how many of those Defenses that you define as Championship quality played at that level for a 5 year span? I mean seriously dominating, unrelenting, head-ripping off defense?

desertsteel
01-21-2013, 02:03 PM
no those are more important as they are game changers. Give me an opportunistic defense that creates turnovers and gets sacks , knowing it will give up yards then what we have.

those type defenses give their offense a lot more opportunities with the ball and give up a lot less leads.

You would think it was important if we were giving up 475 yards a game.

madtowndrunkard
01-21-2013, 02:08 PM
I know I am going to get killed for this but if you look at history, Dick Lebeau's defenses are not championship defenses. (Steel Curtain, Doomsday, 85 Bears, Bellicheck from the Giants and early Pat Years, 2000 Ravens).

Sure, he has 2 Super Bowl wins but for top regular season ranked defenses, none were dominant playoff/Super Bowl defenses. in fact you can go back to when he was the D Coordinator for the bengals.

The Steelers defense was helped a ton in Super Bowl 40 by documented poor officiating. Not saying we would have lost but Seattle would have made a better run of it.

Big Ben bailed out the defense in Super Bowl 43.

Packers had their way in Super Bowl 45.

Plus the 49ers were able to come back on his defense when he was in Cincy.

My point is, I am sick of the high regular season rankings and come playoffs whenever we play a high powered offense we can't stop them. In fact, Tebow tore this defense to shreds.

That being said, I think its time to go in a new direction. Add the fact his defenses are impossible for young players to grasp for 2-3 years, I dont see this changing.

I must rather see a 4-3 being run by a innovative young DC or a new style 3-4 in hopes to get us back to where we need quicker. As much as our offense was the problem in 2012, with Ben that can be fixed quick. The defense with its age and under-developing young players is going to continue to not pressure the qb, not creat turnovers, give up leads to lesser teams for a while.



I'm not going to kill you for your opinion...but I am going to tell you why you are wrong... it's not as black and white as you are trying to make it out to be. There's more to it then "rankings"

#1 - our defense during our SB years and all the other years we went deep into the playoffs was good...in most cases VERY good.

#2 - The offense bailing us out is a rare occurrence over the last 20 years. Anyone paying any attention to the steelers knows well that the majority of the time it was the defense bailing out the offense...when that wasn't happening...we weren't making the playoffs. More often then not it was our defense keeping us in games...it was our offense failing to capitalize... this year is a great example of that.

#3 - The GB superbowl - would have been won by the steelers if it weren't for the turnovers made by our offense. We were up against the best offense in the league...we were going to give up points and yardage. This is a new era in the NFL...a passing era... the rules support this. We would not have been to the SB with out a solid defense and offense. I'll argue it does take both to win SB's. It's usually a fluke when a one dimensional team does it.

#4 - poor officiating did not win that SB against Seattle...to say it did is just ignorant. I'd admit it if it were true... I hate the officials as much as anyone. But most of the so called questionable calls were actually correct. A few were not...but we also got hosed on a couple...and Seattle did not exactly do anything to make one think they were the better team. That game was a standoff till a team made something happen... and it was the steelers that did that. We were in that SB because of our defense - PERIOD. The defense kept us in position to win it... it took some imagination from the offense to put points on the board.

#5 - not sure how long you've been a steeler fan but you probably don't have enough fingers to count how many times lack of scoring and turnovers cost us victories in the playoffs. In some cases it kept us from making the playoffs... this season for example.

#6 - apparently you didn't watch the 2nd half of this season...but all we needed was ANYTHING from our offense to make the playoffs...we got nothing.. the offense failed us 10X for every time the defense failed. Turnovers were often the cause.

#7 - What exactly are you expecting from our defense? We are consistently in the top 5 in the NFL year after year. Sure we get beat sometimes...but I do remind you that we are playing professionals... guys like Brady, Manning, Rogers, etc beat defenses on a regular basis... they are among the best ever at their position...obviously we can't expect to dominate every game defensively. I'll remind you that most defenses are NOT as good as ours yet they still find ways to win. The 49ers are a good example... wasn't till they found a QB that their team started winning. The packers on the other hand...have an offense but can't seem to find a defense capable of winning more then the 1 ring they have. Rogers is most definitely good enough to win multiple rings. he's better then Ben by a long shot.

#8 - I could probably go on and on with this...but dude...put some actual thought into what you are saying. This is a team sport.

Steelers5895
01-21-2013, 02:11 PM
well, as I've already said, I would describe that 2008 defense as Championship quality. Since then they haven't played up to that, but definitely better than mediocre.

And as far as your original post goes, how many of those Defenses that you define as Championship quality played at that level for a 5 year span? I mean seriously dominating, unrelenting, head-ripping off defense?

did ours do that? what i miss?

ive seen the pats kills us twice in champiosnhip games at home, lead after lead after lead given up over regular season games, arizona go up and down the field like it was 7 on 7 drills, the jets with mark sanchez come back on us in a championship game, the packers make every play they needed to and then some to win, tebow tear us a new one.

heck, the jags went up and down the field, the ravens in 2010 went up and down the field

one game, the 2008 championship game vs the ravens was the only game they played great.

so, to answer your question, we werent, you may want to believe we are that tough D but look at what we have done since 2001 on defense.

Steelers5895
01-21-2013, 02:12 PM
You would think it was important if we were giving up 475 yards a game.

yards are the overrated stat. pats defense gave up a ton of yards all year but was + 31 in turnovers. I'll take that, it got them to the championship game and outr #1 defense with yards, that blew 6 leads was 8-8.

harrison'samonster
01-21-2013, 02:14 PM
look at what we have done since 2001 on defense.

I know, pretty good shit since 01! 2 SB victorys, another appearance. Continuously a top ranked D.

Rotorhead
01-21-2013, 02:17 PM
Hhmm, so you dont like DL eh. We have a bad year and it is the def coords fault . . . As far as rookies not being able to start, that is false, we typically start new players after there seasoned vets have left, hell spence was projected to start this season before his injury, Troy started his rookie season. Usually we draft replacements 1-2 seasons prior to needing them is the main reason rookies dont often start. But i guess that is a bad idea since our anually top 5 ranked def is actually terrible. There are 30 other teams out there that would love to have our terrible def, why do i even post in stupid threads like these?

madtowndrunkard
01-21-2013, 02:24 PM
You haters of the 3-4 need to ask you selves this..... When was the Steelers OFFENSE considered the best in the NFL? OR even a top 5 offense?

How often does our offense walk onto the field and just light it up? I mean since our defense is so "Bad" , "mediocre" ."smoke and mirrors" etc as many of you say.... what is our offense doing?

Is the offense exempt from being asked to bail out our bad defense from time to time?


It's our defense that consistently performs at a top level... do we have room for improvement? Sure...I would have liked to see more turnovers this year....I'd like to see more sacks....but they still did their job in at least holding the opponent to less then 21 points most of the time..... Don't forget to subtract those points that were a direct result of our offense turning the ball over.

Our offense is as inconsistent as it gets. Our offense often puts pressure on the defense to be dominant in order to win. Chalk it up to injuries or coaching...but either way you slice it... Dick Lebeau's 3-4 defense has for the most part been good enough to win titles. Most certainly our 3-4 defense has consistently been better then the rest of the league - especially when looked at over the past 5-10 years.

The same cannot be said about our offense. If you think Dick Lebeau isn't good enough... I can't imagine what you think about the vast majority of other D-coordinators. Heck minus maybe one or two other guys... NO ONE in the NFL has defenses performing at the level we have over the past 10 years. It's not even debatable.

Steelers5895
01-21-2013, 02:50 PM
I'm not going to kill you for your opinion...but I am going to tell you why you are wrong... it's not as black and white as you are trying to make it out to be. There's more to it then "rankings"

#1 - our defense during our SB years and all the other years we went deep into the playoffs was good...in most cases VERY good.

#2 - The offense bailing us out is a rare occurrence over the last 20 years. Anyone paying any attention to the steelers knows well that the majority of the time it was the defense bailing out the offense...when that wasn't happening...we weren't making the playoffs. More often then not it was our defense keeping us in games...it was our offense failing to capitalize... this year is a great example of that.

#3 - The GB superbowl - would have been won by the steelers if it weren't for the turnovers made by our offense. We were up against the best offense in the league...we were going to give up points and yardage. This is a new era in the NFL...a passing era... the rules support this. We would not have been to the SB with out a solid defense and offense. I'll argue it does take both to win SB's. It's usually a fluke when a one dimensional team does it.

#4 - poor officiating did not win that SB against Seattle...to say it did is just ignorant. I'd admit it if it were true... I hate the officials as much as anyone. But most of the so called questionable calls were actually correct. A few were not...but we also got hosed on a couple...and Seattle did not exactly do anything to make one think they were the better team. That game was a standoff till a team made something happen... and it was the steelers that did that. We were in that SB because of our defense - PERIOD. The defense kept us in position to win it... it took some imagination from the offense to put points on the board.

#5 - not sure how long you've been a steeler fan but you probably don't have enough fingers to count how many times lack of scoring and turnovers cost us victories in the playoffs. In some cases it kept us from making the playoffs... this season for example.

#6 - apparently you didn't watch the 2nd half of this season...but all we needed was ANYTHING from our offense to make the playoffs...we got nothing.. the offense failed us 10X for every time the defense failed. Turnovers were often the cause.

#7 - What exactly are you expecting from our defense? We are consistently in the top 5 in the NFL year after year. Sure we get beat sometimes...but I do remind you that we are playing professionals... guys like Brady, Manning, Rogers, etc beat defenses on a regular basis... they are among the best ever at their position...obviously we can't expect to dominate every game defensively. I'll remind you that most defenses are NOT as good as ours yet they still find ways to win. The 49ers are a good example... wasn't till they found a QB that their team started winning. The packers on the other hand...have an offense but can't seem to find a defense capable of winning more then the 1 ring they have. Rogers is most definitely good enough to win multiple rings. he's better then Ben by a long shot.

#8 - I could probably go on and on with this...but dude...put some actual thought into what you are saying. This is a team sport.

Excellent valid points. Keep in mind, great, championship defenses obsorb costly offensive errors. We let Drew Bledsoe in a relief role make huge plays in a home championship game. yes team sport But I would say since 2001 our offense let us down only in Big Bens championship game in 2004.

Lets not even go back that far, look at just under Tomlin.

2007- Jags game was a joke. We let the Jags move at will and if not for Ben we were not in that game. And, we saw how it ended with garrard running into filed goal range at the end.

2008- solid season but how many games did Ben have to come back and win a game for us? To include the Super Bowl? he was herioic in that season.

2009- Blown lead after blown lead. oakland? really?

2010- I get no defense was stopping the packers BUT there were many opportunities to make a stand and they didnt. Their defense did ours didnt.

2011- Tebow man handles us

2012- well, 6 blown leads

as for Super Bowl 40, i dont think the refs won the game for us, but at crucial times when Seattle was driving a call would be borderline. To include taking a TD off the board.

So, my question, when in any of these games did you feel that when our defesne was on the field it was a done deal?

Steelers5895
01-21-2013, 02:51 PM
Hhmm, so you dont like DL eh. We have a bad year and it is the def coords fault . . . As far as rookies not being able to start, that is false, we typically start new players after there seasoned vets have left, hell spence was projected to start this season before his injury, Troy started his rookie season. Usually we draft replacements 1-2 seasons prior to needing them is the main reason rookies dont often start. But i guess that is a bad idea since our anually top 5 ranked def is actually terrible. There are 30 other teams out there that would love to have our terrible def, why do i even post in stupid threads like these?

troy did not start until late late in the season his rookie year. a #1 pick no less

Steelers5895
01-21-2013, 02:53 PM
You haters of the 3-4 need to ask you selves this..... When was the Steelers OFFENSE considered the best in the NFL? OR even a top 5 offense?

How often does our offense walk onto the field and just light it up? I mean since our defense is so "Bad" , "mediocre" ."smoke and mirrors" etc as many of you say.... what is our offense doing?

Is the offense exempt from being asked to bail out our bad defense from time to time?


It's our defense that consistently performs at a top level... do we have room for improvement? Sure...I would have liked to see more turnovers this year....I'd like to see more sacks....but they still did their job in at least holding the opponent to less then 21 points most of the time..... Don't forget to subtract those points that were a direct result of our offense turning the ball over.

Our offense is as inconsistent as it gets. Our offense often puts pressure on the defense to be dominant in order to win. Chalk it up to injuries or coaching...but either way you slice it... Dick Lebeau's 3-4 defense has for the most part been good enough to win titles. Most certainly our 3-4 defense has consistently been better then the rest of the league - especially when looked at over the past 5-10 years.

The same cannot be said about our offense. If you think Dick Lebeau isn't good enough... I can't imagine what you think about the vast majority of other D-coordinators. Heck minus maybe one or two other guys... NO ONE in the NFL has defenses performing at the level we have over the past 10 years. It's not even debatable.

2008 ben carried us with come back after come back after come back.

I want a winning QB not one who puts up big stats. ben wins and since he has been around its been on his shoulders over the defenses.

harrison'samonster
01-21-2013, 02:59 PM
Excellent valid points. Keep in mind, great, championship defenses obsorb costly offensive errors. We let Drew Bledsoe in a relief role make huge plays in a home championship game. yes team sport But I would say since 2001 our offense let us down only in Big Bens championship game in 2004.

Lets not even go back that far, look at just under Tomlin.

2007- Jags game was a joke. We let the Jags move at will and if not for Ben we were not in that game. And, we saw how it ended with garrard running into filed goal range at the end.

2008- solid season but how many games did Ben have to come back and win a game for us? To include the Super Bowl? he was herioic in that season.

2009- Blown lead after blown lead. oakland? really?

2010- I get no defense was stopping the packers BUT there were many opportunities to make a stand and they didnt. Their defense did ours didnt.

2011- Tebow man handles us

2012- well, 6 blown leads

as for Super Bowl 40, i dont think the refs won the game for us, but at crucial times when Seattle was driving a call would be borderline. To include taking a TD off the board.

So, my question, when in any of these games did you feel that when our defesne was on the field it was a done deal?

well sure leave out 05 when we won the SB and 04 when we went 15-1 with a rookie QB. I also find your reason for not counting 08 as a Championship quality defense as unacceptable.

harrison'samonster
01-21-2013, 03:00 PM
2008 ben carried us with come back after come back after come back.

I want a winning QB not one who puts up big stats. ben wins and since he has been around its been on his shoulders over the defenses.

It's up to the offense to score points. Are you seriously going to put it on the D that our offense has found ways to win games at the end?

madtowndrunkard
01-21-2013, 03:07 PM
Excellent valid points. Keep in mind, great, championship defenses obsorb costly offensive errors. We let Drew Bledsoe in a relief role make huge plays in a home championship game. yes team sport But I would say since 2001 our offense let us down only in Big Bens championship game in 2004.

Lets not even go back that far, look at just under Tomlin.

2007- Jags game was a joke. We let the Jags move at will and if not for Ben we were not in that game. And, we saw how it ended with garrard running into filed goal range at the end.

2008- solid season but how many games did Ben have to come back and win a game for us? To include the Super Bowl? he was herioic in that season.

2009- Blown lead after blown lead. oakland? really?

2010- I get no defense was stopping the packers BUT there were many opportunities to make a stand and they didnt. Their defense did ours didnt.

2011- Tebow man handles us

2012- well, 6 blown leads

as for Super Bowl 40, i dont think the refs won the game for us, but at crucial times when Seattle was driving a call would be borderline. To include taking a TD off the board.

So, my question, when in any of these games did you feel that when our defesne was on the field it was a done deal?


The thing is.. you are pointing to rare occurrences... the vast majority of games were won by the defense.... The idea that Ben single handedly won these games... Well I remember it a little differently... I remember an ineffective Ben in the 1st and 2nd quarters...showing up in the 4th quarter in a close game...and winning it at the end... that is what I remember... and none of that would have been possible if the defense didn't keep us around until the offense found a way to score.

The stats don't lie either... they support what I'm saying... our offense does not put up points like other top 10 offenses do... we are typically average at putting up points compared to the rest of the NFL. Yet our defense is typically in the top 10 in giving up points. Say what you want...but bottom line is it's all about scoring. You give the offense a pass and expect perfection out of the defense.

Steelers5895
01-21-2013, 03:22 PM
The thing is.. you are pointing to rare occurrences... the vast majority of games were won by the defense.... The idea that Ben single handedly won these games... Well I remember it a little differently... I remember an ineffective Ben in the 1st and 2nd quarters...showing up in the 4th quarter in a close game...and winning it at the end... that is what I remember... and none of that would have been possible if the defense didn't keep us around until the offense found a way to score.

The stats don't lie either... they support what I'm saying... our offense does not put up points like other top 10 offenses do... we are typically average at putting up points compared to the rest of the NFL. Yet our defense is typically in the top 10 in giving up points. Say what you want...but bottom line is it's all about scoring. You give the offense a pass and expect perfection out of the defense.

and that is why ben is considered a championship quarterback. when he needed to be great he was. I cant say that for the defense.

the rare accorances? those are all playoff games. the non rare occurances were regualr season blown leads.

I dont get our offense a pass. When you dont get sacks and turnovers you give the offense long fields. How many times did we pin an offense inside the 10 and let them turn around field positon. that happens a ton and has as far back as I can remember.

Steeldude
01-21-2013, 03:58 PM
I know I am going to get killed for this but if you look at history, Dick Lebeau's defenses are not championship defenses. (Steel Curtain, Doomsday, 85 Bears, Bellicheck from the Giants and early Pat Years, 2000 Ravens).

Sure, he has 2 Super Bowl wins but for top regular season ranked defenses, none were dominant playoff/Super Bowl defenses. in fact you can go back to when he was the D Coordinator for the bengals.

The Steelers defense was helped a ton in Super Bowl 40 by documented poor officiating. Not saying we would have lost but Seattle would have made a better run of it.

Big Ben bailed out the defense in Super Bowl 43.

Packers had their way in Super Bowl 45.

Plus the 49ers were able to come back on his defense when he was in Cincy.

My point is, I am sick of the high regular season rankings and come playoffs whenever we play a high powered offense we can't stop them. In fact, Tebow tore this defense to shreds.

That being said, I think its time to go in a new direction. Add the fact his defenses are impossible for young players to grasp for 2-3 years, I dont see this changing.

I must rather see a 4-3 being run by a innovative young DC or a new style 3-4 in hopes to get us back to where we need quicker. As much as our offense was the problem in 2012, with Ben that can be fixed quick. The defense with its age and under-developing young players is going to continue to not pressure the qb, not creat turnovers, give up leads to lesser teams for a while.

The problem is in the post-season the better QBs are playing. Generally, the Steelers do not do well vs the better QBs in the NFL. That's not to say they haven't done well in some games, but overall they are generally eaten up by the Mannings and Bradys. The talent/ability on defense is stagnant with barely any signs of improvement. Woodley was a reach when they gave him that absurd contract. The Steelers and many fans were fooled because he had some sacks. There is more to being a LB than sacks. Polamalu is old and injury prone, as is Harrison. The problem is they are still the two best players on defense. Hampton was kept too long. Kiesel is overrated by fans and has been for most of his career. Taylor still has a few miles left on him, but again he slowing down. Clark is doing well, for the most part, but he is old also. Timmons is pretty much the only bright spot on defense. The Steelers may need to do an overhaul, not a reload.

Currently there is really no one on the team to take the spots of Harrison and Polamalu.

WokeUpWithaWoodley
01-21-2013, 04:18 PM
Guys we were 8-8. Things need to change. Just like colbett said things have to and will change. Both offense and defense. Stop be oblvious to that.

lloydwoodson
01-21-2013, 05:37 PM
and that is why ben is considered a championship quarterback. when he needed to be great he was. I cant say that for the defense.

the rare accorances? those are all playoff games. the non rare occurances were regualr season blown leads.

I dont get our offense a pass. When you dont get sacks and turnovers you give the offense long fields. How many times did we pin an offense inside the 10 and let them turn around field positon. that happens a ton and has as far back as I can remember.

Like I said I knew you were a Ben homer and just wanted you to say it. Thank you that is a big relief off my mind. Now I know you see Roethlisberger as "heroic" and nothing he ever does is wrong.

You pointed out the Jacksonville game- Ben threw a pick 6 and 2 other interceptions in that game. The Steelers lost by 2. Would the Steelers have had a better chance to win if Roethlisberger had not thrown 3 ints or a pick 6?

You pointed out the 2004 NWE game. Again... Roethlisberger threw 3 picks and a pick 6. It was his rookie season but don't put the game all on the defense when NWE scored 17 points off turnovers. Defense had a bad game but the offense sure didn't help.

Your "championship quarterback" had a playoff rating of 81.9 in the Arians era. That is almost identical to the career averages of Jake Del Homme, Neil O'Donnell and Dave Krieg. Joe Montana he is not.

There is a theme on this board amongst those who trash the defense: they all believe Roethlisberger is the greatest Steelers quarterback and that the Steelers could not win without him. :coffee:

ZoneBlitzer
01-21-2013, 05:48 PM
.

Superbowl XLV Packers scored 24 (7 points from a pick 6 made 31). Packers scored 21 points off of 3 turnovers. A pick 6 and two drives that started on the GB 45.

This. That D played its ass off against a lethal GB attack. Harrison was right to be pissed off at Ben for shitting the bed. That crappy offensive performance started the trend of ineptitude that we have today. Of all things to point out I would never call out the D who has carried the majority of the load for years. YEARS.

harrison'samonster
01-21-2013, 05:50 PM
what i don't get is trying to bash the success we've had with Lebeau as the DC just to argue that we should now change to a 4-3 defense.

The defense held Seattle to 10 points when they averaged 28 pts per game (leading the league).
The defense held the Cardinals to 23 points when they had averaged almost 27 pts per game (3rd in the league). The Cardinals had put up more than 30 points in the previous 4 games, had 3 1000 yrd recievers (two of which had double digit TD's) and a QB who plays his best in the SB.

That's in two Championship games. If that's not Championship quality defense then you must be to use to Madden Football.

Steelers5895
01-21-2013, 05:53 PM
The problem is in the post-season the better QBs are playing. Generally, the Steelers do not do well vs the better QBs in the NFL. That's not to say they haven't done well in some games, but overall they are generally eaten up by the Mannings and Bradys. The talent/ability on defense is stagnant with barely any signs of improvement. Woodley was a reach when they gave him that absurd contract. The Steelers and many fans were fooled because he had some sacks. There is more to being a LB than sacks. Polamalu is old and injury prone, as is Harrison. The problem is they are still the two best players on defense. Hampton was kept too long. Kiesel is overrated by fans and has been for most of his career. Taylor still has a few miles left on him, but again he slowing down. Clark is doing well, for the most part, but he is old also. Timmons is pretty much the only bright spot on defense. The Steelers may need to do an overhaul, not a reload.

Currently there is really no one on the team to take the spots of Harrison and Polamalu.

our defense doesnt step up. The Giants faced Matt Ryan, Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady to win their championship because their defense made big plays, had sacks and turnovers and put Eli Manning in good situations.

That is an example of a championship defense

In their first championship they went through Favre and Brady.

Heck the Saints went through Favre and Manning.

Steelers5895
01-21-2013, 05:55 PM
what i don't get is trying to bash the success we've had with Lebeau as the DC just to argue that we should now change to a 4-3 defense.

The defense held Seattle to 10 points when they averaged 28 pts per game (leading the league).
The defense held the Cardinals to 23 points when they had averaged almost 27 pts per game (3rd in the league). The Cardinals had put up more than 30 points in the previous 4 games, had 3 1000 yrd recievers (two of which had double digit TD's) and a QB who plays his best in the SB.

That's in two Championship games. If that's not Championship quality defense then you must be to use to Madden Football.

im not bashing, my opinion is this is not a championship defense.

harrison'samonster
01-21-2013, 05:57 PM
our defense doesnt step up. The Giants faced Matt Ryan, Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady to win their championship because their defense made big plays, had sacks and turnovers and put Eli Manning in good situations.

That is an example of a championship defense

In their first championship they went through Favre and Brady.

Heck the Saints went through Favre and Manning.

doesn't step up? That's a bit of a cliche. I just don't see how you can just ignore the strength of a team that's won 2 SB's and been to another one for the past 8 years!

Steelers5895
01-21-2013, 05:58 PM
Like I said I knew you were a Ben homer and just wanted you to say it. Thank you that is a big relief off my mind. Now I know you see Roethlisberger as "heroic" and nothing he ever does is wrong.

You pointed out the Jacksonville game- Ben threw a pick 6 and 2 other interceptions in that game. The Steelers lost by 2. Would the Steelers have had a better chance to win if Roethlisberger had not thrown 3 ints or a pick 6?

You pointed out the 2004 NWE game. Again... Roethlisberger threw 3 picks and a pick 6. It was his rookie season but don't put the game all on the defense when NWE scored 17 points off turnovers. Defense had a bad game but the offense sure didn't help.

Your "championship quarterback" had a playoff rating of 81.9 in the Arians era. That is almost identical to the career averages of Jake Del Homme, Neil O'Donnell and Dave Krieg. Joe Montana he is not.

There is a theme on this board amongst those who trash the defense: they all believe Roethlisberger is the greatest Steelers quarterback and that the Steelers could not win without him. :coffee:


Ben Homer? yeah we cant win super bowls without him. Couldnt with O Donnell with a ton of super stars on that team. Couldnt with Kordell or Maddox. Ben takes over the same team both of them have andin year 2 we have a champsionship.

same defense with those guys as Ben had.

As for The Packer game, yes Ben wasnt good...why? He was playing against a championship defense. They made plays. They sacked him, intercepted him, returned one for a TD AND THEY STOPPED HIM ON THE LAST DRIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Something our defense cant do.

Bayz101
01-21-2013, 06:01 PM
THIS is what a losing season results in. A bunch of people pointing fingers and blaming everything from the QB to the groundskeeper. God I can't wait for the off-season to end.

harrison'samonster
01-21-2013, 06:10 PM
Ben Homer? yeah we cant win super bowls without him. Couldnt with O Donnell with a ton of super stars on that team. Couldnt with Kordell or Maddox. Ben takes over the same team both of them have andin year 2 we have a champsionship.

same defense with those guys as Ben had.

As for The Packer game, yes Ben wasnt good...why? He was playing against a championship defense. They made plays. They sacked him, intercepted him, returned one for a TD AND THEY STOPPED HIM ON THE LAST DRIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Something our defense cant do.

what makes them a championship defense while Dick Lebeau's Defenses with us are mediocre???? You go on to say that they sacked Ben, intercepted him, and returned one of a TD and stopped him. Lebeau's defenses did all of those things to help win SB's. What do they have to do, throw shut-outs?

WokeUpWithaWoodley
01-21-2013, 06:11 PM
THIS is what a losing season results in. A bunch of people pointing fingers and blaming everything from the QB to the groundskeeper. God I can't wait for the off-season to end.

Well when our gm says things need to change then pointing fingers should be a topic of discussion. The steelers organization realizes we need change so why can't everyone else.

harrison'samonster
01-21-2013, 06:17 PM
Well when our gm says things need to change then pointing fingers should be a topic of discussion. The steelers organization realizes we need change so why can't everyone else.

the FO realizes we need to change every year to stay competitive. Why should we have to put up with threads bashing the recent SB winning Steelers teams just to make a point about our 8-8 season?

tanda10506
01-21-2013, 06:19 PM
I'm definitely on the negative side of things right now, but this is a bit too much, the title itself yells "WRONG". So if the 2008 defense wasn't good in the playoffs then how did we beat the Chargers (who had a great offense that year) and the Ravens? With our offense? :rofl:

Ben made a big play to win the SB, a play that wouldn't have mattered much if Harrison (defense) didn't get a 100 yard TD INT that prevented the Cardinals from scoring 7. The defense did ALL the heavy lifting that entire year from start to finish.

WokeUpWithaWoodley
01-21-2013, 06:21 PM
the FO realizes we need to change every year to stay competitive. Why should we have to put up with threads bashing the recent SB winning Steelers teams just to make a point about our 8-8 season?

Most of those players on those 2 Super Bowl teams are gone or will be gone. Ward, Holmes, mendenhall, Parker, Starks, smith, kiesel, Hampton, farrior, foote, Harrison and many more. And Troy and Clark very very soon along with Ike.

WokeUpWithaWoodley
01-21-2013, 06:24 PM
I'm definitely on the negative side of things right now, but this is a bit too much, the title itself yells "WRONG". So if the 2008 defense wasn't good in the playoffs then how did we beat the Chargers (who had a great offense that year) and the Ravens? With our offense? :rofl:

Ben made a big play to win the SB, a play that wouldn't have mattered much if Harrison (defense) didn't get a 100 yard TD INT that prevented the Cardinals from scoring 7.

Harrison play wasn't because of a great play call by dick or scheme but the opposite it was caused by a great play with very good instincts. He was supposed to rush that play but instead checked himself out of that and drop back to cover the slant. And that great player will be gone this year or next.

harrison'samonster
01-21-2013, 06:28 PM
Most of those players on those 2 Super Bowl teams are gone or will be gone. Ward, Holmes, mendenhall, Parker, Starks, smith, kiesel, Hampton, farrior, foote, Harrison and many more. And Troy and Clark very very soon along with Ike.

So we as fans of those teams, who enjoyed watching them play, are going to discredit what they did by claiming they were never good to begin with? I think "mediocre" was the term the original poster used.

This isn't an argument about our 8-8 team. This is about the history of Lebeau's coaching career.

I agree with you, there need to be changes, and there will be. But let's not start bending over for the Patriots early 2000's defense and the Ravens 2000 defense and put our teams sucking hind tit. These Steelers teams had great, championship quality defenses.

WokeUpWithaWoodley
01-21-2013, 06:35 PM
So we as fans of those teams, who enjoyed watching them play, are going to discredit what they did by claiming they were never good to begin with? I think "mediocre" was the term the original poster used.

This isn't an argument about our 8-8 team. This is about the history of Lebeau's coaching career.

I agree with you, there need to be changes, and there will be. But let's not start bending over for the Patriots early 2000's defense and the Ravens 2000 defense and put our teams sucking hind tit. These Steelers teams had great, championship quality defenses.

Oh I'm not discrediting those players at all actually the complete opposite. Those players have made this defense so good.

Just a lot of people on here defend dick lebeau defense and scheme when in fact the players we had made the scheme work so well. People don't want to change the scheme at all because dick is a Legend but guys like Troy Harrison and the d line made his scheme so good. If lebeau was on the raiders he's defense wouldn't be number 1.

The players have made this defense so good and most of those player are gone or will be gone. For example those key guys Troy Harrison Woodley kiesel were all hurt this year and Ike and look at what the defense looked like when they were down def not a top 5 d

harrison'samonster
01-21-2013, 06:46 PM
Oh I'm not discrediting those players at all actually the complete opposite. Those players have made this defense so good.

Just a lot of people on here defend dick lebeau defense and scheme when in fact the players we had made the scheme work so well. People don't want to change the scheme at all because dick is a Legend but guys like Troy Harrison and the d line made his scheme so good. If lebeau was on the raiders he's defense wouldn't be number 1.

The players have made this defense so good and most of those player are gone or will be gone. For example those key guys Troy Harrison Woodley kiesel were all hurt this year and Ike and look at what the defense looked like when they were down def not a top 5 d

sorry, I read your posts out of context. I'm no x's and o's guy, so I can't argue the quality of his schemes at all. I would definitely like to see them play like Fansince72 said "more dynamic." But I'll leave that up to the experts.

What the original poster is trying to argue is that the history of these defenses (even 05, 04, 08, and 10, even 93-95) were not championship quality. It's his opinion and he's welcome to it. I just think he's bashing our history.

lloydwoodson
01-21-2013, 07:37 PM
sorry, I read your posts out of context. I'm no x's and o's guy, so I can't argue the quality of his schemes at all. I would definitely like to see them play like Fansince72 said "more dynamic." But I'll leave that up to the experts.

What the original poster is trying to argue is that the history of these defenses (even 05, 04, 08, and 10, even 93-95) were not championship quality. It's his opinion and he's welcome to it. I just think he's bashing our history.

"Dick Lebeau's defense is not a big-play defense! It is a dink and dunk defense!" :chuckle:

ricardisimo
01-21-2013, 09:23 PM
I enjoy debate for the sake of debate, but what exactly is the point of the Lebeau bashing? His defense are not championship defenses, except of course the three AFC Championship defenses he headed. I don't get it.

madtowndrunkard
01-21-2013, 10:27 PM
Harrison play wasn't because of a great play call by dick or scheme but the opposite it was caused by a great play with very good instincts. He was supposed to rush that play but instead checked himself out of that and drop back to cover the slant. And that great player will be gone this year or next.

Get your facts straight... the play is designed for Harrison to read and make the call on his own. He made the right call. Which brings up another point... that play never happens if we were playing a 4-3.

It's really laughable that people are blaming the defense for lack of success...not only that but giving credit to the offense when we did have success.... :rofl:

Does anyone even realize that we've had more success then probably 30 other teams in the league the past 10 years? And during those 10 years it was DL's defense that kept us competitive and carried us.

As for Ben's wonderful ability to get it done late in the 4th quarter... yea that was great when he did it.... but that still says nothing to the fact that our Ben lead offenses for the most part have struggled to score points at a rate any higher then the league average.

I love Ben's toughness and I credit him for his great play when the games on the line (usually in a 17 to 13 kinda game.) but you win by scoring points... who's at fault when you lose a game 13-10? or 20-14 ? How often does our offense score more then 21 points? How often does our defense hold the opponents to under 21 points? I'm sure if you look at the last 10 years it's not even close. It's no secret the defense is and has been for some time, the back bone of this team.

BTW Ben lost his magic this past season with the game on the line. Did he pull out a single game we should have lost this season? I don't recall Ben stepping up this season and winning games for us... if he did I'm sure it was very early in the season.

lloydwoodson
01-21-2013, 10:38 PM
I enjoy debate for the sake of debate, but what exactly is the point of the Lebeau bashing? His defense are not championship defenses, except of course the three AFC Championship defenses he headed. I don't get it.

It isn't debate as much as the OP was being a Roethlisberger apologist. All of these "Fire the coordinator" threads, the "Ben needs a tall WR" threads, "This defense/Tomlin/player sucks" threads are all in their own way apologies for Ben. The common theme is "Ben is the best quarterback the Steelers have ever had! If Ben doesn't win the team let him down! It is everyone's fault but Ben!"

It reminds me of the Leon commercials. "Football is a team game and Leon (Ben) can't do everything."

3BkIh1R5utY

"That pick Ben threw in OT vs the Cowboys wouldn't have mattered if Wallace had tackled him at the Steelers 35 and then the defense held them to 0 yards forcing an indoor 50 yard field goal and then blocking that field goal! These guys need to help Ben! Ben can't do everything!"

5895 pointed to the Steelers second game vs Bengals where they allowed 6 points of an example of the defense failing in the 4th quarter because they gave up the game-winning field goal... and I'm fairly certain he was serious.

WokeUpWithaWoodley
01-22-2013, 12:09 AM
Get your facts straight... the play is designed for Harrison to read and make the call on his own. He made the right call. Which brings up another point... that play never happens if we were playing a 4-3.

It's really laughable that people are blaming the defense for lack of success...not only that but giving credit to the offense when we did have success.... :rofl:

Does anyone even realize that we've had more success then probably 30 other teams in the league the past 10 years? And during those 10 years it was DL's defense that kept us competitive and carried us.


Ummmmm get ur facts straight.

By ALAN ROBINSONAP Sports WriterLATROBE, Pa. —One of the greatest plays in Super Bowl history apparently resulted from Steelers linebacker James Harrison's guess work, not the Pittsburgh coaches' game plan.Harrison revealed while reporting to training camp on Friday that he didn't follow his coaches' orders on his 100-yard interception return touchdown that ended the first half against Arizona on Feb. 1 and has quickly become one of the signature plays in any Super Bowl.Harrison's return of Kurt Warner's pass over the middle intended for Anquan Bolden gave the Steelers a 17-7 halftime lead. They went on to win 27-23 on Ben Roethlisberger's last-minute touchdown pass to Santonio Holmes.If the Cardinals had scored on the first-and-goal play from the Pittsburgh 2, they likely would have led 14-10 at the half and would have owned the momentum."I actually wasn't supposed to drop on that play, I was supposed to blitz," Harrison said Friday. "All night, we were a step late. We had an all-out blitz and I figured if I stepped (out) I could hold my tackle ... (then) I would drop off and they would have to do a quick slant."Harrison guessed correctly, stepped in front of Warner's pass and took off down the sideline.The first half clock would have expired if he had been tackled in-bounds, but Harrison shoved the ball across the goal line as Cardinals receiver Larry Fitzgerald pulled him to the turf.Harrison joked it "took me two weeks to catch my breath after that play."Harrison said Steelers defensive coordinator Dick LeBeau never questioned why he gambled."Technique, opportunity and all that other stuff met (on that play) - and a little bit of luck," Harrison said. "Sometimes you just feel that might be the play that does it. I guess coach LeBeau didn't mind it too much."Harrison, the NFL Defensive Player of the Year last season, often is a contrarian known for doing things his way, and he did so again Friday. While his teammates mostly piled out of large SUVs or pickup trucks, he pulled up to camp in a Smart car that was only slightly larger than Steelers nose tackle Casey Hampton.
http://seattletimes.com/html/sports/2009578541_apfbnharrisonsinterception.html

FanSince72
01-22-2013, 07:44 AM
I enjoy debate for the sake of debate, but what exactly is the point of the Lebeau bashing? His defense are not championship defenses, except of course the three AFC Championship defenses he headed. I don't get it.

I wonder if it's for the same reasons that Arians gets bashed as an OC despite a five-year winning record and two SB appearances? :noidea:

maddog78
01-22-2013, 08:13 AM
and after that play they should have shut it down like a great championship defense should. Arizona was demorilzed and it was a huge swing and in half 2 Arizona came back, took the league on long drives and long plays. Not to mention up until that play Arizona drove the field.

Great is what Steelers want to believe. Reality its not.

Yeah, that was a great play by James who admittedly freelanced on the play. LeBeau's defense had a 13-point 2nd half lead in the Super Bowl and blew it.

lipps83
01-22-2013, 08:27 AM
Get your facts straight... the play is designed for Harrison to read and make the call on his own. He made the right call. Which brings up another point... that play never happens if we were playing a 4-3. great when he did it.... but that still says nothing to the fact that our Ben lead offenses for the most part have struggled to score points at a rate any higher then the league average.

Ummmmm get ur facts straight.

By ALAN ROBINSONAP Sports WriterLATROBE, Pa. —[B]One of the greatest plays in Super Bowl history apparently resulted from Steelers linebacker James Harrison's guess work, not the Pittsburgh coaches' game plan.Harrison revealed while reporting to training camp on Friday that he didn't follow his coaches' orders on his 100-yard interception return touchdown that ended the first half against Arizona on Feb. 1 and has quickly become one of the signature plays in any Super Bowl.

Geee, who to side with? A poster on a message board stating he knows the facts, or the words from a player that actually made the play.

Hmmmm

I reject your reality and substitute my own.

lloydwoodson
01-22-2013, 08:43 AM
Yeah, that was a great play by James who admittedly freelanced on the play. LeBeau's defense had a 13-point 2nd half lead in the Super Bowl and blew it.


Let's look at what the offense did in the 4th quarter. Did they move the chains and eat time off the clock to put the game out of reach? Nope. If you look at what the offense did in the 4th quarter you would see they went 3 and out 3 times. Well, that's a sure way to let another team back in the game. The Cards had 5 possessions in the 4th.

If Justin Hartwig had not been called for holding in the end zone the Cardinals would never have gotten the ball back. Roethlisberger made a 19 yard throw to Holmes from his own end zone with 3 minutes left which was a thing of beauty. If that hold never happens the Cardinals finish the game with 14 points - and the Steelers defense got 7 back themselves. Ultimately the Cardinals should have been held to 7 net points by the Steelers D. I think the D played well personally, I would even go so far to say they played at a championship level. I am not sure how many teams would have stood up to Fitzgerald's historic level of play on 5 possessions in the 4th quarter- especially with McFadden and Gay at corner.

lloydwoodson
01-22-2013, 08:50 AM
I wonder if it's for the same reasons that Arians gets bashed as an OC despite a five-year winning record and two SB appearances? :noidea:

Wrong thread. This thread is about defense. Don't worry though, now we will get to see how great Arians is in the NFC West. In his first year he should have it fairly easy what with the strength of schedule being adjusted for a 5-11 team. (Kind of like how the Colts schedule had been adjusted for a 2-14 team).

Steelers5895
01-22-2013, 10:40 AM
Who is bashing Lebeau?

jeez talk about spinning this topic to fit your retorts.

my point was although we won 2 super bowls, MY OPINION is the defneses were good but not what I consider a Championship defense. No one considers this 10 year stretch of defenses a top historic championship defense. Its a good one but not elite. I rate the Giants defenses as championship defenses. They made the big plays when it mattered. Ours doesnt. Ours allows teams to come from behind. they dont seal the deal.

harrison'samonster
01-22-2013, 10:51 AM
Who is bashing Lebeau?

jeez talk about spinning this topic to fit your retorts.

my point was although we won 2 super bowls, MY OPINION is the defneses were good but not what I consider a Championship defense. No one considers this 10 year stretch of defenses a top historic championship defense. Its a good one but not elite. I rate the Giants defenses as championship defenses. They made the big plays when it mattered. Ours doesnt. Ours allows teams to come from behind. they dont seal the deal.

you are bashing Lebeau and the Steelers defense of the last ten years. I'm not spinning any of your words at all. When you want to come on here and claim that the other great defenses that helped win a SB are worthy of your admiration, and then say that the Steelers defenses are medicore--then you are bashing the Steelers.

Let's go over which teams you claim are championship qaulity of the past decade:

early 2000's Patriots (in 2004 we gave up fewer points than the Pats)
2000 Ravens
SB winning Bucs team (lost to us 17-7 that year which according to Foote is the reason Sapp hates the steelers)
The Giants during there past two SB wins (their D gave up 45 pts to the Packers in 2010)
The Packers team that beat us.

I'm telling you if you don't want to put the Steelers with those teams, you are bashing them. And everybody know we're not talking about this past 8-8 season.

FanSince72
01-22-2013, 11:31 AM
Wrong thread. This thread is about defense. Don't worry though, now we will get to see how great Arians is in the NFC West. In his first year he should have it fairly easy what with the strength of schedule being adjusted for a 5-11 team. (Kind of like how the Colts schedule had been adjusted for a 2-14 team).


Oh come on, you know I had to throw that in there! :sofunny:

As far as BA is concerned, I think he'll do very well as a HC and I think he'll surprise a lot of people.

Edman
01-22-2013, 12:33 PM
The Steelers reached three Super Bowls riding on the back of the Defense. Without that Defense, your hero Ben Roethlisberger doesn't have a single ring.

If you ask me, that constitutes a Championship Defense. This team has NO SHOT at winning JACK without the Defense. Especially in 2008.

Funny how you bring up 2009. That's true the Defense blew many leads that year, but once again it proves that this team isn't half as successful without the Defense. The Defense drops off, as we miss the playoffs at 9-7 in 2009. The fact that we have to rely on the Defense for plays and turnovers is proof of how low our expectations are for our annually mediocre Offense and overrated Franchise QB.

It's once again proof that Ben Roethlisberger is not an Elite QB, if we have to continually harp the responsibility on the team's failure on the Defense. To an Elite QB, your Defense shouldn't even matter. You should be good enough to win anyway. The Defense is the least, the LEAST of this team's problems.

Once again, this thread is throwing darts at a scapegoat, instead of heaping the responsibility on a certain guy wearing #7. The Defense didn't lose the Cincinnati game to knock the Steelers out of the playoffs.

lloydwoodson
01-22-2013, 01:02 PM
Edman makes a good point. The only 3 years that the Steelers have missed the playoffs with Ben at QB the Steelers have finished out of the top 5 in points allowed.

11th in 2006
12th in 2009
6th in 2012

I blame the defense! Ben can't do everything!

fansince'76
01-22-2013, 01:19 PM
The Steelers reached three Super Bowls riding on the back of the Defense. Without that Defense, your hero Ben Roethlisberger doesn't have a single ring.

And without Roethlisberger, this team is still chasing after ring #5. There are a couple decades worth of proof of that, including pretty much Cowher's entire tenure, until "guess who" came along, anyway.

Once again, this thread is throwing darts at a scapegoat, instead of heaping the responsibility on a certain guy wearing #7. The Defense didn't lose the Cincinnati game to knock the Steelers out of the playoffs.

It didn't exactly do jack shit to win that game in Oakland earlier in the season when the offense put up 31 points either. Did the Raiders even manage to crack 20 points in a game the rest of the season?

lipps83
01-22-2013, 02:13 PM
It didn't exactly do jack shit to win that game in Oakland earlier in the season when the offense put up 31 points either. Did the Raiders even manage to crack 20 points in a game the rest of the season?

That's not fair. The Raiders scored 34 points against the Steelers which was their highest output of the season.

It's hard to score points when you play top notch defenses all year long like the Saints (17), Dolphins (13), Panthers (6), Bengals (10), Browns (17), Chiefs (15).

It's Ben's fault the defense gave up 13 points in the 4th quarter after a 10 point lead. He only threw for almost 400 yards and 4 TD's.

Steelers5895
01-22-2013, 02:28 PM
That's not fair. The Raiders scored 34 points against the Steelers which was their highest output of the season.

It's hard to score points when you play top notch defenses all year long like the Saints (17), Dolphins (13), Panthers (6), Bengals (10), Browns (17), Chiefs (15).

It's Ben's fault the defense gave up 13 points in the 4th quarter after a 10 point lead. He only threw for almost 400 yards and 4 TD's.

ben was having his BEST statistical year with a regressing wallace until he got hurt.

anyone who has had confidence in this defense in a big spot is blinded by what they want to see and believe.

Steelers5895
01-22-2013, 02:29 PM
That's not fair. The Raiders scored 34 points against the Steelers which was their highest output of the season.

It's hard to score points when you play top notch defenses all year long like the Saints (17), Dolphins (13), Panthers (6), Bengals (10), Browns (17), Chiefs (15).

It's Ben's fault the defense gave up 13 points in the 4th quarter after a 10 point lead. He only threw for almost 400 yards and 4 TD's.

I rather have any of those defenses than ours. well, maybe not the saints, but its close.

Edman
01-22-2013, 05:13 PM
And without Roethlisberger, this team is still chasing after ring #5. There are a couple decades worth of proof of that, including pretty much Cowher's entire tenure, until "guess who" came along, anyway.

Yep. Ben played a role and a reason why the Steelers won #5, but he's not the driving force of those Super Bowl Teams. Again, anytime the Steelers D failed to be top-line, Ben can't do better than 9-7, and the Steelers missed the playoffs.

It didn't exactly do jack shit to win that game in Oakland earlier in the season when the offense put up 31 points either. Did the Raiders even manage to crack 20 points in a game the rest of the season?

The Defense had a bad game in Oakland and was the reason they lost that game. That was Week 3, and had since gotten it together.

With the Season on the line in December, it was the Defense that stepped up and put on a show. Ben proceeded to shit the bed. Season over.

lloydwoodson
01-22-2013, 05:23 PM
And without Roethlisberger, this team is still chasing after ring #5. There are a couple decades worth of proof of that, including pretty much Cowher's entire tenure, until "guess who" came along, anyway.

Is the answer Troy Polamalu?

It didn't exactly do jack shit to win that game in Oakland earlier in the season when the offense put up 31 points either. Did the Raiders even manage to crack 20 points in a game the rest of the season?

Did the Steelers even manage to crack 30 points in a game the rest of the season?

Riddle_Of_Steel
01-22-2013, 05:30 PM
There is too many different things going on in this thread to reply to just one of them.

Dick Lebeau's defenses not Championship defenses? Maybe not every year, but to make a generalized statement like this is inaccurate. That 2008 defense was not only a championship defense, but it was one of the top 10 defenses all-time. You can't really argue against that one-- they were #1 in EVERY CATEGORY except stopping the run, which they fell behind Minnesota by .6 yards in the last game to finish out at #2 against the run.

Not sure what you were looking at with that one (or not looking at).

Big Ben verses great defenses? I have to side with EDMAN-- Ben played a major part, and I don't think we get ring 5 or 6 without him, but....he was NOT the major driving force in those wins. That was the defense.....

Edman
01-22-2013, 07:24 PM
Edman makes a good point. The only 3 years that the Steelers have missed the playoffs with Ben at QB the Steelers have finished out of the top 5 in points allowed.

11th in 2006
12th in 2009
6th in 2012

I blame the defense! Ben can't do everything!

The funny thing is that not even on their best years, the Defense still finished in the top half of the league. 6th in 2012, and the Steelers still miss the postseason. That is unfathomable. If a Defense that solid isn't good enough to do 8-8, I cringe to see what worse will do.

Imagine if the Defense were perpetually terrible/bottom rung like the Patriots and other teams. This team doesn't have a winning season, let alone makes the postseason.

harrison'samonster
01-22-2013, 07:37 PM
the 2007 Giants were 17th in scoring giving up more than 30 pts. 5 times in the regular season. The 2011 Giants were 25th in scoring giving up 400 pts. in the regular season. You want to say these are championship quality defenses but ours over the past decade weren't?

desertsteel
01-22-2013, 07:42 PM
the 2007 Giants were 17th in scoring giving up more than 30 pts. 5 times in the regular season. The 2011 Giants were 25th in scoring giving up 400 pts. in the regular season. You want to say these are championship quality defenses but ours over the past decade weren't?

Do you remember the Colts title? Their defense absolutely sucked all season and yet somehow turned it on during the playoffs.

steelfury02
01-22-2013, 07:43 PM
The funny thing is that not even on their best years, the Defense still finished in the top half of the league. 6th in 2012, and the Steelers still miss the postseason. That is unfathomable. If a Defense that solid isn't good enough to do 8-8, I cringe to see what worse will do.

Imagine if the Defense were perpetually terrible/bottom rung like the Patriots and other teams. This team doesn't have a winning season, let alone makes the postseason.

with the offense we HAVEN'T had - 4-12 team

harrison'samonster
01-22-2013, 07:45 PM
the 2011 Green Bay Packers were 19th in scoring, yet a year before they had a championship quality defense? in 04 they were 23rd. 05 they were 19th. 06 they were 25th. 07 they were 6th. 08 they were 22nd. 09 they were 7th. when they beat us in 2010 they were 2nd (to us). They beat us in one SB and they are championship quality defense. We went 8-8 this season, had a bad first half of the season on D, and we still got the same ranking as their 2nd best in since 04!

desertsteel
01-22-2013, 08:03 PM
Rob Ryan anybody?

harrison'samonster
01-22-2013, 08:19 PM
Rob Ryan anybody?

is he looking for a job? maybe we should give him a shot.

I do remember that Colts D, I remember thinking that they were better than they preformed. I also thought the same about the 2007 Giants.

That 2006 Colts team only held their opponent under 20 pts. 4 times in the regular season! Can you imagine Lebeau putting a Defense on the field like that here in Pittsburgh? They definitely played better in the post-season. Same with the 2008 Cardinals I remember them playing great on D throughout the playoffs that year.

Steelers5895
01-22-2013, 08:21 PM
the 2007 Giants were 17th in scoring giving up more than 30 pts. 5 times in the regular season. The 2011 Giants were 25th in scoring giving up 400 pts. in the regular season. You want to say these are championship quality defenses but ours over the past decade weren't?

yes i can say that. in the super bowls they went against the most historic regular season teams offensively and shut them down. Pretty much the same last year.

we lost to a lower ranked offense in the packers and arizona moved at will the last drive of the first half and the entire second half, to include a long td pass to take a lead.

thats the difference between a defense on a championship team and a championship defense.

desertsteel
01-22-2013, 08:30 PM
yes i can say that. in the super bowls they went against the most historic regular season teams offensively and shut them down. Pretty much the same last year.

we lost to a lower ranked offense in the packers and arizona moved at will the last drive of the first half and the entire second half, to include a long td pass to take a lead.

thats the difference between a defense on a championship team and a championship defense.So if by chance we had made the super bowl this year and shut down the 49's, we would have the greatest defense of all time?

FORMULA for Championship Defense: Play like crap for 18 games and then play lights in the Super Bowl.

harrison'samonster
01-22-2013, 08:32 PM
yes i can say that. in the super bowls they went against the most historic regular season teams offensively and shut them down. Pretty much the same last year.

we lost to a lower ranked offense in the packers and arizona moved at will the last drive of the first half and the entire second half, to include a long td pass to take a lead.

thats the difference between a defense on a championship team and a championship defense.

most historic regular season teams offensively? They were great, but in 2011 there were two offenses ranked higher. If the Patriots were the most historic offensive team in 07 and 2011, then what do you call the teams that were better than them in 2011?

If you want to discredit our team and put down their recent SB victories (Seattle it was the refs, ARZ and GB were poor offenses that moved on us at will), good for you. Fact is we've had a championship quality defense since Lebeau has been here.

WokeUpWithaWoodley
01-22-2013, 09:23 PM
Again let me say I'm a big fan of lebeau and wouldn't trade him for anyone else, but let me pose a question

In there prime, would smith, kiesel, Hampton, Harrison, farrior, Woodley, timmons, Troy, Ike, Clark be pro bowl caliber players on any other team that ran a 3-4?

And would lebeau defenses be just as successful meaning top 5 year in year out on any other team?

What I'm trying to get at is that our defense has been so reluctant to have all those great players under lebeau and without those guys we wouldn't be top 5 every year because of lebeaus scheme. It has a lot to do with the players you have. It's just some people well most don't want to blame anything on lebeau when in reality there should be some blame. Because as everyone saw when Harrison, Woodley, Troy, Ike were hurt we didn't look like a great defense.

So what are your thoughts to the 2 questions?

harrison'samonster
01-22-2013, 09:34 PM
In there prime, would smith, kiesel, Hampton, Harrison, farrior, Woodley, timmons, Troy, Ike, Clark be pro bowl caliber players on any other team that ran a 3-4?

And would lebeau defenses be just as successful meaning top 5 year in year out on any other team?


My answer would be, like all good coaches, if Lebeau has the pieces then his schemes will work.

Would these Steeler players be pro-bowl caliber on other 3-4 teams? I think Troy would have been on any team. Same for Harrison in his prime (unblockable). Final answer: same as the second question, all the pieces fit and make the defense.

I do know that Lebeau has put together top ranked defenses that helped to beat top ranked offenses consistantly throughout the regular seasons, playoff games, and 2 Super Bowls.

desertsteel
01-22-2013, 10:42 PM
Again let me say I'm a big fan of lebeau and wouldn't trade him for anyone else, but let me pose a question

In there prime, would smith, kiesel, Hampton, Harrison, farrior, Woodley, timmons, Troy, Ike, Clark be pro bowl caliber players on any other team that ran a 3-4?



Only 3 on that list were pro bowlers and I think they would have been on any other 3-4. TP and JH on any defense and CH on any 3-4.

WokeUpWithaWoodley
01-22-2013, 11:40 PM
Only 3 on that list were pro bowlers and I think they would have been on any other 3-4. TP and JH on any defense and CH on any 3-4.

Pro bowl caliber doesnt mean actuallt got voted

lloydwoodson
01-23-2013, 02:25 AM
To answer WokeUp's question I think that some of those players would probably be more likely to go to the Pro Bowl with another team. 3-4 DE don't usally get to the Pro Bowl they occupy blockers. If Smith and Keisel played 4-3 DE they would have a better shot at the Pro Bowl. Smith made it one year.

Also, LeBeau's conservative "tackle the catch" scheme (which I think is largely Tomlin's MO from his Tampa 2 days) does not put cornerbacks in a position to intercept many passes. Pro Bowls are popularity and stats contests. Clark and Taylor would not get to many regardless of which team they played for but they might have a better shot in a more aggressive defense.

Side note: "My philosophy is really out of the 1975 Pittsburgh Steelers playbook,” said Dungy during media interviews while at Super Bowl XLI. “That is why I have to laugh when I hear 'Tampa 2'. Chuck Noll and Bud Carson — that is where it came from, I changed very little."

VaDave
01-23-2013, 06:25 AM
Actually, the catch the ball part goes back to when LeBeau was at Philidelphia under DIck Vermiel and he hasn't changed it one iota since.

desertsteel
01-23-2013, 01:48 PM
Pro bowl caliber doesnt mean actuallt got voted

True, but as homers we could say that about any player. Like Ike for example. As long as he has bricks for hands, he is not truly pro bowl caliber. Btw, I don't see him getting better at catching the ball at this stage of his career.

Here is all we need for a championship defense IMO:

Above Average players who fit system 50% (e.g., LM, IT)
Average players who fit system 25% (e.g. ZH, CA)
Playmaker/ Pro Bowler players (e.g., TP, JH)

I mean the Chiefs have 5 pro bowlers and 2 wins. We don't need a star-studded defense. We obviously need more of the Above Average players and seem to have a couple vacancies in the Playmaker roles due to age and injury.