PDA

View Full Version : Pittsburgh Sports Philosophy


Blackout
01-25-2013, 11:44 PM
"The standard is the standard." - Mike Tomlin
"We didn't get to our game" - Sidney Crosby

And not sure what the Pirates is, maybe:

"The standard is we never get to our game" - Robert Nutting

steelfury02
01-26-2013, 07:35 AM
sprinkle in a little:

"That's me taking the bull by the horns. It's how I like to run my business. It's a metaphor. But that actually happened though"

torpedoshell31
01-26-2013, 10:09 AM
"The standard is the standard." - Mike Tomlin
"We didn't get to our game" - Sidney Crosby

And not sure what the Pirates is, maybe:

"The standard is we never get to our game" - Robert Nutting

Ha! I like the Pirates "standard". I was actually at the Pirates last World Series game at home back in 1979. Now I'm an old man with 8 grandkids and the Pirates still haven't been back.

sluggermatt15
01-26-2013, 10:33 AM
The Pirates are just stuck in a rut, a pretty big rut. But IMO they will be back to winning in the near future. Too much talent and prospects not to win baseball games. This is coming from an optimistic Bucco fan.

casteeler
01-26-2013, 11:42 AM
I'm happy the Buccos found another catcher.Barajas is horrible, there for a while it was Barmes....out- Barajas....out- Pitchers spot.....end of inning :wave:

VaDave
01-26-2013, 02:32 PM
The Pirates are just stuck in a rut, a pretty big rut. But IMO they will be back to winning in the near future. Too much talent and prospects not to win baseball games. This is coming from an optimistic Bucco fan.

Very optimistic indeed.

As for the Standard is the Standard, in relation to Next Man Up, is is total BS. There is a reason that starters are starters and play most of the snaps. It's because they are better players.The next man up is not going to be as good, or they would be sharing snaps equally to spread the workload.

As for the Pirates, it is about a reasonable to think they will return to greatness as it is for 8 track tapes to come back to the fore as the recording media of choice.

harrison'samonster
01-26-2013, 02:45 PM
yeah, the standard is the standard is just a phrase used to coach up back-ups. Obviously there are some back-ups who are working towards becoming starters, but there are some who are just plain and simply back-up players (I think these are the main players that phrase is directed towards). They need to be able to come in and make a contribution and not make too many mistakes.

What really needs to be avoided though are players who are unprepared or highly unqualified and are on the team because of injuries or something like that.

teegre
01-26-2013, 03:05 PM
It's been twenty years, and that throw from Barry Bonds STILL hasn't reached home plate yet.

Neil-Still-Rules-14
01-26-2013, 05:49 PM
The Pirates will not be good anytime soon. They legitimately have one good player (McCutchen) and he is guaranteed to be traded in the next 2-3 years, his salary significantly escalates annually for the rest of his contract.

2012: $500,000
2013: $4,500,000
2014: $7,250,000
2015: $10,000,000
2016: $13,000,000
2017: $14,000,000

sluggermatt15
01-27-2013, 09:28 AM
Maybe I should clarify my position. I think the Pirates will have a winning record, that is what I mean by winning. I do not believe they will turn into a perennial playoff contender. That is way too much to ask from them right now.

The past 2 seasons should have been winning seasons. The team just totally fell apart at the most inopportune times. Had they been able to sustain it, they would have gone out winners.

VaDave
01-27-2013, 08:55 PM
Sluggo,

Winning teams don't fall apart. We've had 20+ years of this annual failling to hold together, and truly have not seen much progress towards being mediocure, let alone becoming a winning club.

Do you see any pitchers on the level of Drabek, Zane Smith, or Bob Walk on our staff? Any catchers even close to a Mike LaValiver pardon the spelling? An infielder like Jay Bell?? An impact player at 3rd base on the level of a Bobby Bonnia ( again, pardon the spelling) or even Sid Bream??? A Leyland caliber manager?

It took Sid Thrift all of 3 years to put these pieces together for a championship run. Sorry, I'm not buying the Pirates are a team on the rise, and we need to be patient.

Truth be told, current management is not even remotely interested in fielding a competitive team. At the sametime the've been claiming they are building future success through the farm sysytem, they have been woeful in developing home grown talent. Out of the last twenty years we've managed to develop exactly one blue chip player, McCutchen, and he wouldn't even be a franchise player anywhere else in MLB.

sluggermatt15
01-28-2013, 08:50 AM
Sluggo,

Winning teams don't fall apart. We've had 20+ years of this annual failling to hold together, and truly have not seen much progress towards being mediocure, let alone becoming a winning club.

Do you see any pitchers on the level of Drabek, Zane Smith, or Bob Walk on our staff? Any catchers even close to a Mike LaValiver pardon the spelling? An infielder like Jay Bell?? An impact player at 3rd base on the level of a Bobby Bonnia ( again, pardon the spelling) or even Sid Bream??? A Leyland caliber manager?

It took Sid Thrift all of 3 years to put these pieces together for a championship run. Sorry, I'm not buying the Pirates are a team on the rise, and we need to be patient.

Truth be told, current management is not even remotely interested in fielding a competitive team. At the sametime the've been claiming they are building future success through the farm sysytem, they have been woeful in developing home grown talent. Out of the last twenty years we've managed to develop exactly one blue chip player, McCutchen, and he wouldn't even be a franchise player anywhere else in MLB.

Winning teams don't know how to fall apart? You are correct. Winning teams know how to get it done. They find ways to win the big games and come through with clutch hits, pitches, and plays. I agree.

No I don't notice any of those caliber of players on the current Pirates roster. But IMO teams don't need big name star players to win. Look at the Oakland A's and Tampa Bay Rays as well as the Baltimore Orioles (2012). They don't spend $100 million on payroll every year, and somehow they find ways to come up with winning records. Oakland and Tampa have demonstrated small market teams can win but don't necessarily NEED big superstars to do so. I think if the Pirates big players - McCutchen, Walker, Jones, et al. can continue to play at high levels and stay out of the injury syndrome, this team has a chance to win more games than it loses. But it's the struggles these guys must learn from that can lead them to the next level. They've been on the team the last 2 years. They know how to lose, but they also know how to play .500+ ball. If they can find the winning way, there is a chance.

VaDave
01-28-2013, 12:00 PM
Have you actually watched those other small market teams? Little things that are a noticable difference, they always hit the cuttoff man, they hit behind the runner, they get their bunts down cleanly, they can execute the hit an run, fundementals, that you just don't see with the Pirates.

One other thing you don't see, 6-7 batters in a line up batting below the Medoza line, and wondering where the offense is. Seriously, who they trying to kid?

On to pitchers, the training regimine is below standard which shows up on how many pitchers come out of our farm system with either blown out arms, a 10- 15 mph drop in velocity, or both. It's been proven that increasing long toss training from 90 feet, the Pirate standard, to 150-200 feet, increases both velocity, stamina, and significantly reduces injury factors.

IMO, until the FO gets serious about trainning standards in the farm system, it is hopeless to expect much of anything from this club. I wouldn't expect much hope of these tightwads opening the bank to bring in some first rate FA talent either.

stb_steeler
01-28-2013, 03:34 PM
"The standard is the standard." - Mike Tomlin
"We didn't get to our game" - Sidney Crosby

And not sure what the Pirates is, maybe:

"The standard is we never get to our game" - Robert Nutting

I thought Tomlins saying was,
Its not what you can do but what your willing to do? lol

sluggermatt15
01-30-2013, 10:13 AM
Have you actually watched those other small market teams? Little things that are a noticable difference, they always hit the cuttoff man, they hit behind the runner, they get their bunts down cleanly, they can execute the hit an run, fundementals, that you just don't see with the Pirates.

One other thing you don't see, 6-7 batters in a line up batting below the Medoza line, and wondering where the offense is. Seriously, who they trying to kid?

On to pitchers, the training regimine is below standard which shows up on how many pitchers come out of our farm system with either blown out arms, a 10- 15 mph drop in velocity, or both. It's been proven that increasing long toss training from 90 feet, the Pirate standard, to 150-200 feet, increases both velocity, stamina, and significantly reduces injury factors.

IMO, until the FO gets serious about trainning standards in the farm system, it is hopeless to expect much of anything from this club. I wouldn't expect much hope of these tightwads opening the bank to bring in some first rate FA talent either.

Yes I have watched those teams play. They have very strong fundamentals in the skills you pointed out. Their coaching and managing is superior to that of the Pirates, but you don't need a Jim Leyland type manager or big superstars to be like them - THAT is my point.

I fully agree management has not handled the Pirates in the proper manner for the past 20 years. I attribute this to the major reason why the team has struggled. And though I remain completely optimistic, and very much a fan and enthusiast, in reality the team will not be at the next level until they have the right men running the show. Will that ever happen? I am not certain.

VaDave
01-30-2013, 11:34 AM
Yes I have watched those teams play. They have very strong fundamentals in the skills you pointed out. Their coaching and managing is superior to that of the Pirates, but you don't need a Jim Leyland type manager or big superstars to be like them - THAT is my point.

I fully agree management has not handled the Pirates in the proper manner for the past 20 years. I attribute this to the major reason why the team has struggled. And though I remain completely optimistic, and very much a fan and enthusiast, in reality the team will not be at the next level until they have the right men running the show. Will that ever happen? I am not certain.

I hear you. I've been a long time follower of the Pirates, since the 50's. The drive home from church growing up always had the Joe L Brown show on the radio. They did such a good job of keeping the fan informed on who was doing what. Yeah, the gunner would throw some soft questions at him, but he didn't shrink away from telling it like it was.

Frankly, the club hasn't been the same since the Galbreith family sold it to McClatchy, who totally liquidated anything of value that was not in plain sight. Nutting hasn't been much better.

I hear the words, be patient, that they are trying to build from within, but the product our farm system is cranking out leaves little to be desired. I honestly believe we are signing good enough talent, it's just that our player development sucks, and will continue to suck until we invest in a workable system.

Aa a fan, I was thrilled at the first 5 months of last season. But you had a bunch of guys that were playing way over their heads, and eventually, the laws of average caught up with them.

ERAs crept up ( again proper conditioning issue), key injuries, RBIs went down due to a lack of batting averages, not to mention you best player went in the tank offensively for the last month of the year. In all fairness, there was nobody on either side of Cutch in the lineup that would have scared any MLB pitcher which undoubtedly had an effect.

IMO, the outlook for this team is at best a .500 club, but with our pitching staff , several of whom are coming off of major injuries, getting up there age wise, or never amounted to much of anything in the first place, coupled to a slew of batters that are going to bat .250 or less, with little or no power, I wouldn't be counting on a winning season this year.

sluggermatt15
02-01-2013, 07:21 PM
I agree with you, Dave. You make some great points. Player development is a key aspect of building a successful franchise. The biggest evidence of the Pirates payer development is that they end up trading all their young stars away, or they leave for more $. It's really a tragedy for the fans to watch. Everyone gets excited for the next player to perform well at the big league level, and when they do, that player ends up leaving.

I don't know what it's going to take to turn that around. New ownership or not. But I tend to agree that it will be the same old Bucs until that changes. I think that ownership sees that it is doing something positive due to the winning portions of the last 2 seasons. They can use that point as to defend themselves.. what do you think?

VaDave
02-02-2013, 08:01 AM
The sad thing is the club is doing very well....., from the clubs perspective. The long term capital gain since McClatchy and Nutting's initial investment is nothing short of phenoninal. We should all be so fortunate that our 401ks grew this much.

That's why when I hear the words small market, we are broke, don't have the money, and the like, I go nuts. LOL!!! They have plenty of money, right down the streeet at PNC bank where loan officer would GLADLY lend them a $50-$100 mill or so to land some top level talent. With current attendance levels for a losing squad, can you imagine what revenue would be like with an actual competitive club.

The second thing they need to do, is to find broadcasters that can sell. Bob Prince had no peer in that regard. Some how, when the old Gunner said "Bases Loaded for the Great Roberto" there was an anticipation that good things were about to happen....Listening to Bob Walk at times is about as exciting as watching moss grow on a tree. Knowlegable, yes, passion, no.

. Maybe Prince was a little too good, his radiocasts were so enjoyable, so descriptive, I could visualize the game in my head, so why bother going to the game.

Anyway, I always enjoy talking about the Buccos with good fan like yourself. How long have you been at it?

sluggermatt15
02-03-2013, 09:36 AM
The sad thing is the club is doing very well....., from the clubs perspective. The long term capital gain since McClatchy and Nutting's initial investment is nothing short of phenoninal. We should all be so fortunate that our 401ks grew this much.

That's why when I hear the words small market, we are broke, don't have the money, and the like, I go nuts. LOL!!! They have plenty of money, right down the streeet at PNC bank where loan officer would GLADLY lend them a $50-$100 mill or so to land some top level talent. With current attendance levels for a losing squad, can you imagine what revenue would be like with an actual competitive club.

The second thing they need to do, is to find broadcasters that can sell. Bob Prince had no peer in that regard. Some how, when the old Gunner said "Bases Loaded for the Great Roberto" there was an anticipation that good things were about to happen....Listening to Bob Walk at times is about as exciting as watching moss grow on a tree. Knowlegable, yes, passion, no.

. Maybe Prince was a little too good, his radiocasts were so enjoyable, so descriptive, I could visualize the game in my head, so why bother going to the game.

Anyway, I always enjoy talking about the Buccos with good fan like yourself. How long have you been at it?

I a youngin, in my mid-20s, Dave! haha I've been following the Pirates closely since PNC Park opened, but have been attending games since the mid-90s when my parents would take me to games at Three Rivers. I love the Buccos, win or lose, and it just kills me to see them lose every year. I anxiously await, and maybe foolishly believe they will finally have that winning season. But hey that's part of being a fan. Teams go through stretches of winning, the Pirates have definitely had their stretches and moments of success, but losing is part of the game too. IMO the real fans stick with a team regardless if they win or lose.

I agree about the spending, it's not like the Pirates are losing $. They make a decent profit every year. Problem is the owners don't spend it. And we all wonder why they don't do anything every year. Sad aspect if you ask me.

You're not a fan of the announcers, eh? They're OKAY. I miss Lanny Frattere, I thought he had a pretty good voice. Pretty knowledgeable about the game, had his phrases and cliches, and very informative during broadcasts.

The_Joker
02-03-2013, 10:00 AM
Sorry, but I could give less of a damn about the Pens or Pirates.

Be happy those who do, 2/3 of your teams are great franchises.

sluggermatt15
02-05-2013, 08:58 PM
:tt04:Sorry, but I could give less of a damn about the Pens or Pirates.

Be happy those who do, 2/3 of your teams are great franchises.

Not saying you are, but that reminds me of what typical fair weather Pittsburgh fans say. These people only like the Steelers and the Penguins, but not the Pirates. And gee, I wonder what the reason is.... it's because the Pirates lose far more than the other two franchises. If you're a REAL Pittsburgh fan, IMO you support ALL THREE franchises, whether they win or lose.

Sorry, had to express my feelings there. Again, not accusing you of being fair weather.

aa14
02-05-2013, 09:54 PM
:tt04:

Not saying you are, but that reminds me of what typical fair weather Pittsburgh fans say. These people only like the Steelers and the Penguins, but not the Pirates. And gee, I wonder what the reason is.... it's because the Pirates lose far more than the other two franchises. If you're a REAL Pittsburgh fan, IMO you support ALL THREE franchises, whether they win or lose.

Sorry, had to express my feelings there. Again, not accusing you of being fair weather.

Baseball sucks. If someone doesn't support the team because they realize it's a lame sport, don't blame them. Just a cherry on the poop sundae that the pirates suck as well.

teegre
02-06-2013, 12:54 AM
:tt04:

Not saying you are, but that reminds me of what typical fair weather Pittsburgh fans say. These people only like the Steelers and the Penguins, but not the Pirates. And gee, I wonder what the reason is.... it's because the Pirates lose far more than the other two franchises. If you're a REAL Pittsburgh fan, IMO you support ALL THREE franchises, whether they win or lose.

Sorry, had to express my feelings there. Again, not accusing you of being fair weather.

I always follow the Pirates until they are out of contention... and then, switch over to rooting for the Padres (I loved Tony Gwynn).

My brother says that that is akin to rooting for a chihuahua... and then a dachshund in a dog fight... (against pit bulls & mastiffs).

Anyway, after those two teams are out, I stop watching baseball... which, alas, is usually by mid-May.

lloydwoodson
02-06-2013, 04:49 AM
I always follow the Pirates until they are out of contention... and then, switch over to rooting for the Padres (I loved Tony Gwynn).

My brother says that that is akin to rooting for a chihuahua... and then a dachshund in a dog fight... (against pit bulls & mastiffs).

Anyway, after those two teams are out, I stop watching baseball... which, alas, is usually by mid-May.

Don't worry. One of these days that Chihuahua is going to be mad as hell, rise up and show that Pitbull who the boss is!

Rjba0DeTUpo

wwhickok
02-06-2013, 06:51 AM
sprinkle in a little:

"That's me taking the bull by the horns. It's how I like to run my business. It's a metaphor. But that actually happened though"

Someone has been watching some quality television lately.

wwhickok
02-06-2013, 06:53 AM
Im proud to say Im a Penguins and Steelers fan...for the last 20 years, I cant say Im proud to be a Pirates fan...but...it is what it is..I guess I am one of those fans who will just keep saying "This year is the year!"Corporate and hoping by some miracle Im not wrong....again.

VaDave
02-06-2013, 07:43 AM
I a youngin, in my mid-20s, Dave! haha I've been following the Pirates closely since PNC Park opened, but have been attending games since the mid-90s when my parents would take me to games at Three Rivers. I love the Buccos, win or lose, and it just kills me to see them lose every year. I anxiously await, and maybe foolishly believe they will finally have that winning season. But hey that's part of being a fan. Teams go through stretches of winning, the Pirates have definitely had their stretches and moments of success, but losing is part of the game too. IMO the real fans stick with a team regardless if they win or lose.

I agree about the spending, it's not like the Pirates are losing $. They make a decent profit every year. Problem is the owners don't spend it. And we all wonder why they don't do anything every year. Sad aspect if you ask me.

You're not a fan of the announcers, eh? They're OKAY. I miss Lanny Frattere, I thought he had a pretty good voice. Pretty knowledgeable about the game, had his phrases and cliches, and very informative during broadcasts.

Lanny Frattere came to the Pirates as the second banana behind Milo Hamilton, the man that replace Prince. Frattere replaced Hamilton after a few season later,

If you can ever get your hands on some old radio broadcasts of the Pirates, just listen to the difference, Also, I think you still can get your hands on the network broadcast of game seven of the '71 series. Prince did the first half.

Speaking of the 70's Pirates... Everybody talks about the "Big Red Machine" as the difinitive baseball club of that era. I'm here to tell you, our 70's Pirates were just as good, AND we about completely reworked the team and coaches between '71 and '79. I'm not sure who the GM was during that time, but he was plenty good.



For you anti baseball guys... If you ever played the game much, you'd understand. I'll agree that it is a game from years gone by. I also agree that baseball is not as telegenic as football.

You really need to go to the ballpark to appreciate it. Going once or twice doesn't get it either. You first need to do a little study of the opponents, ball parks, learn the averages, pitching strengths, weaknesses, because if you don't your not going to understand what is going through the managers head. It would be like going to an opera, and without being able to understand Italian, you don't know what the heck is going on.

Football is great sport mainly because you can enjoy it taking it at face value. Results are easily quantified. With baseball, you have to work at it a bit to get the full impact.

sluggermatt15
02-16-2013, 12:46 PM
Lanny Frattere came to the Pirates as the second banana behind Milo Hamilton, the man that replace Prince. Frattere replaced Hamilton after a few season later,

If you can ever get your hands on some old radio broadcasts of the Pirates, just listen to the difference, Also, I think you still can get your hands on the network broadcast of game seven of the '71 series. Prince did the first half.

Speaking of the 70's Pirates... Everybody talks about the "Big Red Machine" as the difinitive baseball club of that era. I'm here to tell you, our 70's Pirates were just as good, AND we about completely reworked the team and coaches between '71 and '79. I'm not sure who the GM was during that time, but he was plenty good.



For you anti baseball guys... If you ever played the game much, you'd understand. I'll agree that it is a game from years gone by. I also agree that baseball is not as telegenic as football.

You really need to go to the ballpark to appreciate it. Going once or twice doesn't get it either. You first need to do a little study of the opponents, ball parks, learn the averages, pitching strengths, weaknesses, because if you don't your not going to understand what is going through the managers head. It would be like going to an opera, and without being able to understand Italian, you don't know what the heck is going on.

Football is great sport mainly because you can enjoy it taking it at face value. Results are easily quantified. With baseball, you have to work at it a bit to get the full impact.

Both of those 70s Pirates teams were so great. I agree that the Lumber Company team does not get much respect from the 70s, where everyone points to the Big Red Machine instead. The Pirates could have been in the World Series more frequently, but they couldn't get past Cincy and LA, I believe, in the NLCS a few years in the mid-70s.

I still consider the Reds to be one of our biggest rivals. Other fans may disagree, but if you look at it from a historical perspective it's hard to deny. Same goes for the Phillies rivalry. Historically it was HUGE back in the 70s and 80s. Those two teams used to dominate the NL East during those decades. It was amazing how competitive they were.

6RingsAndCounting
02-16-2013, 06:23 PM
As a 19 year old, I have yet to see the Pirates above .500. Fortunately, I've been able to see 2 Lombardi's and a Stanley Cup. I love football and Hockey, along with basketball, but there isn't anything like baseball. My issue with the Huntington/Nutting era thus far has been their free agent signings. Over spending for washed up veterans has really hurt the club in my opinion, Barajas, Barmes, Overbay, Iwamura, Bedard, the list goes on. You can't come up short that many times as a small market team.

When Huntington first arrived everyone knew that the Pirates were going to go into massive rebuilding mode. What hurt the team was all the misses early on with those trades, Joel Hanrahan was the only player out of that early group that I would consider successful.

sluggermatt15
02-24-2013, 11:22 AM
As a 19 year old, I have yet to see the Pirates above .500. Fortunately, I've been able to see 2 Lombardi's and a Stanley Cup. I love football and Hockey, along with basketball, but there isn't anything like baseball. My issue with the Huntington/Nutting era thus far has been their free agent signings. Over spending for washed up veterans has really hurt the club in my opinion, Barajas, Barmes, Overbay, Iwamura, Bedard, the list goes on. You can't come up short that many times as a small market team.

When Huntington first arrived everyone knew that the Pirates were going to go into massive rebuilding mode. What hurt the team was all the misses early on with those trades, Joel Hanrahan was the only player out of that early group that I would consider successful.

I hear you, the FA signings have been mostly questionable. Huntingdon also fails to keep these players around. Hanrahan is gone after 2 very good years with the Pirates. Yes he was due $7-8 million for 2013, but with everything he has done for the team and how he is one of the best closers in the game, why let him walk? Pony up and spend the $ to keep him around!!

Management needs to stop being cheap and spend $ to keep a team together. They can't continue to sign FAs for 1-2 years, then let them walk, especially if they have made significant contributions - Hanrahan, Burnett (he's still around), etc. Same goes for young talent. It would be total blasphemy if in a few years if the team lets McCutchen, Alvarez, Walker and players of the like leave.