PDA

View Full Version : Madden: Steelers' Problems Might be Too Big


GoFor7
02-26-2013, 01:49 PM
http://www.timesonline.com/columnists/sports/mark_madden/steelers-problems-might-be-too-big/article_94a829e8-7f07-11e2-8d28-001a4bcf6878.html

Steelers' problems might be too big
Posted: Sunday, February 24, 2013 11:51 pm
By Mark Madden

Turmoil didn't cause 8-8; 8-8 caused turmoil.

But the fact remains that the Steelers locker room appears lousy with malcontents, laggards and tattletales. Which is worst? That's in the eye of the beholder

Such malaise is common with most NFL teams. Localization thereof is just another reminder that the Steelers are no longer a "special" franchise - if they ever were.

So, who's at fault?

Coach Mike Tomlin is hardly blameless. He seems to cede a bit more control and lose a bit more discipline every year.

Linebacker LaMarr Woodley is the founder of the latest tempest. Critics like Ryan Clark may characterize the unnamed Steeler source as a rat, but no one is calling that unnamed source a liar.

It's common knowledge that Woodley was out of shape, overweight and lacked dedication. The proof was in his season: Just four sacks and a level of invisibility the Steelers can't afford from an edge rusher.

Clark and Antonio Brown are right when they say the matter should have been kept in-house. But, given that, why did they keep discussing it publicly?

Oh, right: Got to get on TV.

What's a bigger sin: Tanking a season due to lard and laziness, like Woodley? Or calling Woodley out anonymously after the fact? Stinking, or snitching?

Going 8-8 suggests the former. Gangsta culture dictates the latter.

Hines Ward knows where things went wrong: He retired. Humility lives.

"When you lose so much leadership in the locker room, that is where things present itself like that," Ward told the NFL Network.

The Steelers don't lack leadership. They lack followers. The Young Money Crew and the Florida Gators posse (known collectively as the No-Ring Mafia) seem to believe they got NFL life figured out. So shut up, Troy.

The Steelers also lack self-awareness. The Steelers, as an organization and as individuals, are rarely made to experience an unpleasant moment. As a result, they seem to believe they shouldn't. They run this town, and they know it.

But when you go 8-8 and miss the playoffs, you don't get treated like immortals coated in Teflon. Punks, loafers and lousy performances get called out.

Humiliation isn't always bad. It can motivate. Woodley's problems weren't sorted out internally, or privately. So tell the outside world and see what happens.

Some feel Mike Wallace's impending departure (via Rolls-Royce

Phantom) will restore order. But there is a lot more than one bad apple.

The idea of a player currently without a contract or team purchasing a car that costs $500K is dumbfounding, isn't it? Wallace is in a temporary profession making temporary money. But someday he'll be a TV star: Wallace will be the primary protagonist on ESPN 30 for 30's "Broke 2."

So, how will the Steelers straighten out their locker room?

Winning is generally a cure-all. It's also easier said than done.

The Steelers' biggest problem has traditionally been when they don't recognize there's a problem. But perhaps the Steelers' current problems are too big. Perhaps too many bad actors populate their roster. Perhaps there are insufficient replacements for the broken parts that need to be replaced.

Only one thing seems certain: The Steelers are a lot closer to a losing season than they are a Super Bowl.

On the field, the Steelers' best bet is turning their hopes over to Ben Roethlisberger, one of football's top five quarterbacks. But tradition dictates the Steelers strive for balance on offense and hard-hitting defense. Don't let Roethlisberger win the game in the first quarter. Ask him to bail you out in the last.

Didn't work in 2012. Won't work in 2013. Between inferior weaponry and outdated philosophy, the Steelers are wasting their $102 million quarterback.

You think 8-8 caused turmoil? We might see what 6-10 produces.

BLACK_AND_YELLOW
02-26-2013, 01:53 PM
:blah:

SteelersCanada
02-26-2013, 01:54 PM
Mark Madden is the definition of an ignorant piece of shit. He doesn't have anything good to say about the Steelers or it's players at any time. He was calling out Ryan Clark of all people earlier this year and was acting like a complete asshat.

harrison'samonster
02-26-2013, 01:57 PM
I like the title: "Steelers problems might be too big". But Madden should have added, "or maybe they aren't too big, what the hell do I know?"

sloppyjoe
02-26-2013, 02:52 PM
sounds like he is spot on

steelfury02
02-26-2013, 03:30 PM
Sorry GoFor7 - just because you bolded "bail you out in the last" by Mark Madden doesn't mean that's what was intended

the same article dings the supporting cast for their piss poor attitude and lack of commitment - same piss poor cast that didn't help bail Roethlisberger out

add injuries and 5-3 turns into 8-8

Again - where were you when Ben was finding 10 different receivers and beating the defending champs?

and by the way, just because I generally disagree with you and your whole attitude towards other Steelers fans, doesn't mean I'm burying my head in the sand and leaning back on the whole "We Got 6" attitutde

TheVet
02-26-2013, 03:54 PM
There's some truth in there, no matter what you think of Madden. I thought this point especially was pretty good:
On the field, the Steelers' best bet is turning their hopes over to Ben Roethlisberger, one of football's top five quarterbacks. But tradition dictates the Steelers strive for balance on offense and hard-hitting defense. Don't let Roethlisberger win the game in the first quarter. Ask him to bail you out in the last.

Didn't work in 2012. Won't work in 2013. Between inferior weaponry and outdated philosophy, the Steelers are wasting their $102 million quarterback.

It does seem to me that we're not getting the bang we should out of our offense given that we have an amazing QB. We should think about whether our desperation time philosophy might be useful earlier in the game - it's OK to blow out an opponent right out of the gate. You don't get an extra star by keeping the game in balance until halfway through the 4th Q. Let's play to win vs. trying not to lose!

GoFor7
02-26-2013, 04:00 PM
Again - where were you when Ben was finding 10 different receivers and beating the defending champs?

Okay, they had three good games against teams that were playing their worst football at the time - and the Giants were just as mediocre as the Steelers were. Lousy comparison on your part. Those three games should not be enough to convince anyone this offense is successful.

and by the way, just because I generally disagree with you and your whole attitude towards other Steelers fans, doesn't mean I'm burying my head in the sand and leaning back on the whole "We Got 6" attitutde

No, but your refusal to admit that Artie should stay out of football operations and that the Steelers made a lot of bad choices last offseason does indicate your head is buried in the sand and that you're very gullible.

You want the Steelers to be like Teflon. You want everybody to cheer lead them and just write off 2012 as a fluke. Guess what - doesn't work like that. When your team finishes 8-8, and guys like Clark and Brown run their mouths to the media, bad things are going to be written about the Steelers - and rightly so.

austinfrench76
02-26-2013, 04:07 PM
Madden's a fat pig!!! Just sayin....

casteeler
02-26-2013, 05:29 PM
Madden makes sense. The Steeler fans are as in denial as some of the players, Brown and Sanders are scared to death of running a slant pattern and it showed in countless fumbles and dropped passes. The young money crew 'no ring crew' needs to practice hard and bulk up. Seems that some Steelers need to realize this team isn't intimidating anyone anymore and that includes the Browns(which until recently were their stepping stones) This team has an aging defense,ZERO running game WRs that think the world should bow to them ( stop celebrating every catch!) and no backup QB. The Steelers absolutely have MASSIVE problems and they might be too big to address in one offseason but I'll still watch my team and cheer them on. How can anyone be upset with Maddens' article? It's pretty accurate even if we don't want to admit it.

pittpete
02-26-2013, 07:20 PM
Injuries had nothing to do with it........OK Mark

TheVet
02-26-2013, 07:44 PM
Every team has injuries - 8-8 teams, 5-11 teams, ... and the Super Bowl Champion Ravens had a very tough set of serious injuries too.

We don't need excuses. We need to look our problems squarely in the eye and solve them.

Edman
02-26-2013, 08:17 PM
There's some truth in there, no matter what you think of Madden. I thought this point especially was pretty good:


It does seem to me that we're not getting the bang we should out of our offense given that we have an amazing QB. We should think about whether our desperation time philosophy might be useful earlier in the game - it's OK to blow out an opponent right out of the gate. You don't get an extra star by keeping the game in balance until halfway through the 4th Q. Let's play to win vs. trying not to lose!

Could it just be that our QB isn't THAT amazing? If Ben were "amazing", he would've proven it by now. The offense would be much better than it is right now.

VaDave
02-26-2013, 08:22 PM
vet

It wasn't so much the amount of injuries, is was the depth of those injuries. We played 4 different RTs. Colon screwed two game plans with late scratches, and then ends up on IR. You lose your franchise QB for 3 weeks, team. Our 3rd RG started out the year on the PS.That is just the offense.

There is very limited practice time during the week. When you have to spend most of the time working with replacement players geting them up to speed, so your QB doesn't get killed, leaves little time to game plan or work on the finer points on both sides of the ball.

Now the D. Our last starting cornerback started out the season unemployed because HE WASN"T GOOD ENOUGH to land a spot on a NFL squad. Being forced to play Ryan Munday, Robert Golden, Curtis Brown, none of which is likely to have a long NFL careee, certainly didn't put fear in mind of OCs around the league. Losing Troy early on, Woodley having an off year, and a dimimished Harrison... I'm sure you get the point.

I understand your frustration, but to expect your 3rd sting RG, 4th string RT, 8th string DB to play at a championship level is just a bit unreasonable, don't you think?

The_Joker
02-26-2013, 08:26 PM
He is right, but exaggerating a bit.

10-6.

TheVet
02-26-2013, 09:15 PM
vet

It wasn't so much the amount of injuries, is was the depth of those injuries. We played 4 different RTs. Colon screwed two game plans with late scratches, and then ends up on IR. You lose your franchise QB for 3 weeks, team. Our 3rd RG started out the year on the PS.That is just the offense.

There is very limited practice time during the week. When you have to spend most of the time working with replacement players geting them up to speed, so your QB doesn't get killed, leaves little time to game plan or work on the finer points on both sides of the ball.

Now the D. Our last starting cornerback started out the season unemployed because HE WASN"T GOOD ENOUGH to land a spot on a NFL squad. Being forced to play Ryan Munday, Robert Golden, Curtis Brown, none of which is likely to have a long NFL careee, certainly didn't put fear in mind of OCs around the league. Losing Troy early on, Woodley having an off year, and a dimimished Harrison... I'm sure you get the point.

I understand your frustration, but to expect your 3rd sting RG, 4th string RT, 8th string DB to play at a championship level is just a bit unreasonable, don't you think?

Baltimore had very serious injuries. I remember a time here when we were all celebrating about injuries to a few key guys who always kill us. You remember that, don't you? I'd say they were hit worse than we were - their injuries happened to key proven players.

I don't buy your analysis - certainly not on the OL, where there's simply not enough depth for "deep injuries" to even be a concept. DD was a killer injury, absolutely - but this rookie was our only "sure thing" at guard! Colon was just an experiment, and not a very successful one. We don't have another legitimate starting guard. And sure we played 4 different RTs, but honestly, we only had one proven starter at OT entering the season - Starks, a career journeyman-level player. Gilbert 's preseason had already shown that his second season was going to be a big regression, and the other OTs were rookies. The talent is so light, it's hard to say the backups shouldn't have been starters - look at the happy discovery that Beachum could outperform the slacking Gilbert, for example!

Our true big injuries were DD, Ben, and Troy/James. Maybe Spence, but we really don't know. But the defense did enough to deliver a winning record.

It's silly to talk about " 3rd sting RG, 4th string RT, 8th string DB" - mostly, we only had one proven player at each of those positions, and we were searching for anyone else to start; it's not as if we really had a depth chart. You're actually proving my point (and in fact, DB is looking better than it has in years).

Also, who was "expecting championship level" after we saw this team develop? Lackluster performances by Woodley, Wallace, Sanders, Brown, Mendy, Giilbert, Colon, arguably a few others (II will not blame our backs given the OL performance). Haley was a bit disappointing, no? (but let's give him an incomplete.)

Who overachieved this year? Timmons, pre-injury Ben, Heath and (of all things) Suisham, who probably kept us from being 6-10 or even (gasp) 5-11.

TheVet
02-26-2013, 09:34 PM
I had high hopes for this last season also, but my eyes weren't closed to all the risks and missing pieces. We would have needed a lot of luck with our rookies and other backup players stepping up to fill in the holes, as well as getting the expected performances from the folks who should have been able to deliver.

I read Madden's article again, and didn't find anything wrong in it - except that it doesn't even touch on many of the issues, mostly just the controversial or high-profile points. Plus he's a fat pig, but that doesn't make him wrong. :thumbsup:

We got some big holes to fill.

pittpete
02-26-2013, 09:47 PM
Not making excuses, especially because of injuries.
If you look back through the season though
Lose your #1 draft pick
No Harrison
No Troy
Starting RT goes down
Starting LG goes down
Ike Taylor injured
Brown injured
Lewis hobbling
Woodley injured
Ben misses games
Backup QB goes down
Spence misses the season
Mendy not 100% and then injured again
Redman injured every other game.
Just saying

steelfury02
02-26-2013, 09:58 PM
the bottom line is that some of you can't separate your "I'm the most educated and best Steeler fan ever" attitude with the times you are actually being observant

GoFor7 - I've never thought or said the Steelers ownership was perfect - not sure where the facts are you seem to possess that they actually meddled other than a quote that can be taken any way you'd like to take it - I'd like to see proof that ownership or Colbert were looking to draft guys with work ethic, attitude, and ultimately in some cases, legal problems. By the way, last time I checked - owners can pretty much do what they want, and over time - the Steelers have owned the most consistently successful franchise so you're right - I'll take the Steelers organization and everything in it and about it, as a fan, every single time, over any other franchise.

I never said that doesn't mean they can't go into another downswing. I remember the 80s. I remember the late 90s. I don't like some of the things I'm seeing and hearing from the recent replacements in the last few years. I don't think coaching is free of ridicule but I don't see it as high on the list of problems - I don't think ownership is high on the list either. As of the last few seasons - I think it comes down to personnel - both in the management, scouting department, the training staff, and ultimately, I think it comes down to the players.

To your point, 1 season marred by injuries and obviously plagued by attitudes, where we were really damn lucky to be 8-8, isn't enough to say the new offense is a complete and utter failture and means more failure to come. You can't say I can't measure by 3 games and call it a success and then turn around and in the same breathe say its a failure. You aren't holding yourself to these same measuring standards. Where's my failure to admit "they" made bad choices. Who did? Artie? Colbert? Tomlin? staff? players? Pretty broad range of topics and generic statement just to support your view.

Teflon? I just said the other day during the Tomlin on the hot seat convo that if the same stuff happens next season, the voices for his job and maybe even Colberts will become louder. I don't have a shit fit because bad things are being said about "my Steelers" - I get pissed at the players for not keeping things in-house, realize today's players don't have the same perceived character they should have and have stated as such, and come on here quite often to say bad things about a lot of the Steelers. You seem to forget my bitching about the almighty Roethlisberger - a source of our disagreements for quite a while now.:thumbsup:

TheVet
02-26-2013, 10:16 PM
Not making excuses, especially because of injuries.
If you look back through the season though
Lose your #1 draft pick
No Harrison
No Troy
Starting RT goes down
Starting LG goes down
Ike Taylor injured
Brown injured
Lewis hobbling
Woodley injured
Ben misses games
Backup QB goes down
Spence misses the season
Mendy not 100% and then injured again
Redman injured every other game.
Just saying

Yes, I saw all this. It really exposed our starting lineup holes, lack of depth, missing leadership and our underperformers, didn't it?

But do yourself a favor, and go check out what the Ravens went through injury-wise. We had the easier road in that regard.
.

Riddle_Of_Steel
02-26-2013, 10:50 PM
You think 8-8 caused turmoil? We might see what 6-10 produces.

LMFAO. You've gotta be fucking kidding me....

The Steelers have some issues, but this thread is beyond silliness. They have a few holes to fill in the roster, which they will be doing this offseason.

The Steelers were 6-3 and in command of their destiny at midseason. Injuries, and a few other mitigating factors led to a disappointing finish.

Just as with any successful season, a lot of things had to align to make this year turn out the way it did-- alot of things that are not likely to happen two years in a row.

* We started the year without a starting RB, yet Ben was still lighting it up through 6 weeks.
* We lost all 4 starting CBs for a game, and played the next game with one starter.
* Ben got hurt for a month in what appeared to be a fluke injury.
* We had Wallace's contrat holdout-- something that does not happen too often around here.
* Our QB becmae a new father during the most important stretch of our schedule.
* We lost our 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks to injuries.
* We started the year off with both OLBs injured.
* We had Polamalu for 4 games.
* It was the first year in a completely new offensive system (Arians' was not a new system-- was a carry-over from the WHiz's offense).
* There was a small team chemistry issue in the lockerroom.

Fix even one or two of the above items and the Steelers finish 10-6 or 11-5, in the playoffs, and we aren't even having this conversation. How often does a team lose ALL of its starting CBs?

Until we lost all of our CBs, it looked as though the defense was coming around-- and had Ben not gotten hurt, this team would have been firing on all cylinders come December. The Ben injury was the turning point of the season.

Madden and GoFor7 are the type of person who freak out during a crisis situation, instead of keeping a cool head and trying to find a logical solution to the problem. The Steelers fell short this last year, as they seem to do every 3rd season. They will be fine next year.

A single 8-8 season is no reason to go spouting off a bunch of doom and gloom drivel about going 6-10 next year.

Keep things in perspective, and grow a set of nads already, will you?

teegre
02-26-2013, 10:50 PM
Yes, I saw all this. It really exposed our starting lineup holes, lack of depth, missing leadership and our underperformers, didn't it?

But do yourself a favor, and go check out what the Ravens went through injury-wise. We had the easier road in that regard.
.

Vet,
I disagree.

Losing BB was more significant than ANY other injury last season on ANY team. BB is a top-tier QB, and when one of those types of players goes down, their team struggles. That one injury eclipses any (if not all) of the injuries that the Ravens had to endure.

But, if we delve deeper...

Losing Lardarius Webb < losing Ike Taylor AND Keenan Lewis AND Cortez Allen.
Heck, at one point, the starting CBs were Josh Victorian and Robert Golden... and Golden is a safety.

Losing The Knife = losing Troy.

A crippled Terrell Suggs = an injured James Harrison

Then, the Steelers lost 3/5 of their starting O-line. Whereas, the Ravens started the same line (except for when they reshuffled them) for almost every game of the season.

Regardless of any other injuries, it can't be stated enough: losing BB was devastating. He was an MVP candidate... and then... ugh.

Of course, things need to be dealt with and changes need to be made (e.g. even after good seasons, LeBeau adds 15% new plays). No one disagrees with that. But, if BB does not get injured, the season is very different... and a lot if the in-fighting & finger-pointing does not even surface.

Summation:
ESPN's analysts were picking the Steelers to win it all... BB was looking like an MVP... then... injury... season derails... players start to squabble... and here we are (angry that the effing Ravens won the SuperBowl).

TheVet
02-26-2013, 10:51 PM
I just realized something - I went through the thread and saw that nobody who criticized the article actually referenced the content of the article. It was all personal attacks on Madden.

:toofunny:

Riddle_Of_Steel
02-26-2013, 10:54 PM
I just realized something - I went through the thread and saw that nobody who criticized the article actually referenced the content of the article. It was all personal attacks on Madden.

:toofunny:

I did.

Madden and GoFor7 are a pair of whiney little girls.

Riddle_Of_Steel
02-26-2013, 10:57 PM
Vet,

Summation:
ESPN's analysts were picking the Steelers to win it all... BB was looking like an MVP... then... injury... season derails... players start to squabble... and here we are (angry that the effing Ravens won the SuperBowl).

Fucking exactly.

All this 6-10 talk is rubbish. The Steelers had some minor issues this last offseason, ones that were further exacerbated by our starting QB (who was looking to be our MVP) going down for a month and never coming back at 100%.

How often do the Steelers lose all 4 starting CBs to injuries? Between Ben's injuries and the CBs being out-- that accounts for 2 or 3 of our losses alone.

Ravens fans must get an absolute hoot out of reading posts from fans like GoFor7 and Mark Madden.

"Oh, noes! We finished at .500! Everybody on the team sucks-- FIRE THEM ALL!"

harrison'samonster
02-26-2013, 10:58 PM
I did.

Madden and GoFor7 are a pair of whiney little girls.

that's kind of offensive to whiney little girls. c'mon.

harrison'samonster
02-26-2013, 11:01 PM
Fucking exactly.

All this 6-10 talk is rubbish. The Steelers had some minor issues this last offseason, ones that were further exacerbated by our starting QB (who was looking to be our MVP) going down for a month and never coming back at 100%.

How often do the Steelers lose all 4 starting CBs to injuries? Between Ben's injuries and the CBs being out-- that accounts for 2 or 3 of our losses alone.

this gloom and doom stuff is pure speculation. If Madden had written an article analyzing the way the Steelers played it would be something to argue against.

Instead he speculates a lot about the way things "seemed" or "appeared" using sound-bites from after the season to support his argument. I can't really say he "seems" like he knows what he's talking about.

Riddle_Of_Steel
02-26-2013, 11:08 PM
Okay, so maybe my name-calling was uncalled for, but...come on, man. Folks have let this 8-8 year get completely out of perspective.

OX1947
02-26-2013, 11:49 PM
Out of all the people on the planet to call someone lard and lazy. The irony is just too funny.

GoFor7
02-27-2013, 01:11 AM
I just realized something - I went through the thread and saw that nobody who criticized the article actually referenced the content of the article. It was all personal attacks on Madden.

:toofunny:

Didn't you know, anyone who says anything negative about the Steelers is an Arians-lover, a Ravens fan, a Browns fan, a fag, a Ben lover, a LeBeau hater, an even bigger fag, a Patriots fans, etc, etc...

You can insult the writer of of an article all you want. I think the fact Madden hits a nerve with so many in yinzer nation is because deep down, they know he's spot on about many of the Steelers' problems, but they can't stand anything negative being said about them.

tony hipchest
02-27-2013, 02:02 AM
Madden... hits it on this point-

The Steelers don't lack leadership. They lack followers. The Young Money Crew and the Florida Gators posse (known collectively as the No-Ring Mafia) seem to believe they got NFL life figured out. So shut up, Troy.

GoFer7- troll :troll:

blitz95
02-27-2013, 03:01 AM
I love how Madden writes but leaves out how most of our entire rookie class was injured all season, or most of it along wiht a lot of our key vets. We are gonna be fine.

jtbsteeler
02-27-2013, 05:13 AM
Yes, I saw all this. It really exposed our starting lineup holes, lack of depth, missing leadership and our underperformers, didn't it?

But do yourself a favor, and go check out what the Ravens went through injury-wise. We had the easier road in that regard.
.


Wrong. Flacco played the entire season. This team was 6-3 and if you go and check the Ravens MB's, they had conceded that Sunday night game to us before Ben got hurt... The Steelers were in position to win the division AFTER the halfway mark.

Injuries and a fat Woodley helped to tank this season. I'm glad he was called out. Now the spotlight is on his fat ass. It's win/win if you ask me.

steelfury02
02-27-2013, 08:59 AM
Didn't you know, anyone who says anything negative about the Steelers is an Arians-lover, a Ravens fan, a Browns fan, a fag, a Ben lover, a LeBeau hater, an even bigger fag, a Patriots fans, etc, etc...

You can insult the writer of of an article all you want. I think the fact Madden hits a nerve with so many in yinzer nation is because deep down, they know he's spot on about many of the Steelers' problems, but they can't stand anything negative being said about them.

Come on GoFor7 - where's you're detailed response to my recent posts where I pretty much slap down your "everyone in the Steelers must suck 'cause I said I told you so after the season was over" still waiting to see where you make your complaints at the 5-3 or 6-3 mark. That's right - you came out of the woodwork to make your opinion match with the outcome.

Millers the sh!t
02-27-2013, 10:19 AM
vet

It wasn't so much the amount of injuries, is was the depth of those injuries. We played 4 different RTs. Colon screwed two game plans with late scratches, and then ends up on IR. You lose your franchise QB for 3 weeks, team. Our 3rd RG started out the year on the PS.That is just the offense.

There is very limited practice time during the week. When you have to spend most of the time working with replacement players geting them up to speed, so your QB doesn't get killed, leaves little time to game plan or work on the finer points on both sides of the ball.

Now the D. Our last starting cornerback started out the season unemployed because HE WASN"T GOOD ENOUGH to land a spot on a NFL squad. Being forced to play Ryan Munday, Robert Golden, Curtis Brown, none of which is likely to have a long NFL careee, certainly didn't put fear in mind of OCs around the league. Losing Troy early on, Woodley having an off year, and a dimimished Harrison... I'm sure you get the point.

I understand your frustration, but to expect your 3rd sting RG, 4th string RT, 8th string DB to play at a championship level is just a bit unreasonable, don't you think?




Most of you critic and defense of the trams failure this season is focused.on the defense. Our D was great this year and if it were on any other team in the NFL the offense probably would have been good enough to carry them into the playoffs. We are young and undisciplined on offense. Tomlin needs to start being tough on our you men and future draft picks. These guys are never.gonna hit their full potential and the only time I see disappointment on any offensive players face is only after the 3rd time they drop a pass in a game or the second time they.turn the ball over in the game. These guys are a bunch of punks that won't appreciate what they have and take it seriously until it's too late. Theyplplayers think they are on spring break right now taking everything lightly ad a joke and just for fun. This is work fellas. Very high paying jobs where you must take it very very serious. This ain't no minimum wage over worked underpaid McDonalds job, so stopactibg like it.

SteelersCanada
02-27-2013, 11:13 AM
Madden... hits it on this point-

The Steelers don't lack leadership. They lack followers. The Young Money Crew and the Florida Gators posse (known collectively as the No-Ring Mafia) seem to believe they got NFL life figured out. So shut up, Troy.

GoFer7- troll :troll:

Disagree. Maybe Wallace had this ideology, but Brown and Sanders don't. Brown and Manny are both working out and training to get better when, for most guys, they're still enjoying the offseason. I have a good feeling about these two being our 1/2 punch.

I think, if anything, we're being too hard on our young guys (I say young guys like I have any pearls of wisdom - they're both slightly older than I am). If anything, we need to ease up and let these guys train, work hard and get ready for 2013. Guys like Madden love to hear the sound of their own voice and will bring up any bullshit point as long as it attracts readers. Grouping Manny and AB into the same category as Wallace in terms of ideology is a mistake - they're both showing they're willing to go above and beyond.

tony hipchest
02-27-2013, 11:22 AM
Disagree. Maybe Wallace had this ideology, but Brown and Sanders don't. Brown and Manny are both working out and training to get better when, for most guys, they're still enjoying the offseason. I have a good feeling about these two being our 1/2 punch.

I think, if anything, we're being too hard on our young guys (I say young guys like I have any pearls of wisdom - they're both slightly older than I am). If anything, we need to ease up and let these guys train, work hard and get ready for 2013. Guys like Madden love to hear the sound of their own voice and will bring up any bullshit point as long as it attracts readers. Grouping Manny and AB into the same category as Wallace in terms of ideology is a mistake - they're both showing they're willing to go above and beyond.madden is a douche.

but brown and sanders need to keep training hard, focus on their craft, fall in line, and let the veterans lead.

last year they were both pressing, trying to be the man, and carry the team.

Brown especially. They collectively had 600+ catches in college, showed fantastic hands in their first year or 2 but last year at times, it seemed they had butterfingers.

thats not a knock on them. they just need to regain their focus and quit trying to be hines ward. that will all come with time.

Hawaii 5-0
02-27-2013, 11:25 AM
last year they were both pressing, trying to be the man, and carry the team.

Brown especially.

Antonio may have felt a lot of pressure to perform well after signing his big contract last season...

steelfury02
02-27-2013, 11:31 AM
madden is a douche.

but brown and sanders need to keep training hard, focus on their craft, fall in line, and let the veterans lead.

last year they were both pressing, trying to be the man, and carry the team.

Brown especially. They collectively had 600+ catches in college, showed fantastic hands in their first year or 2 but last year at times, it seemed they had butterfingers.

thats not a knock on them. they just need to regain their focus and quit trying to be hines ward. that will all come with time.

very nicely put - what worries me though is that I can't quickly identify a leader on the offense who will help get them over the hump and producing consistently and squash some of this me-first crap - that's why I think like you said, they pressed because maybe they felt like no one else would step up

now, maybe having Mendy and Wallace gone will help with the overall attitude, approach to the work in front of them, and the atmosphere

tony hipchest
02-27-2013, 11:37 AM
very nicely put - what worries me though is that I can't quickly identify a leader on the offense who will help get them over the hump and producing consistently and squash some of this me-first crap - that's why I think like you said, they pressed because maybe they felt like no one else would step up

now, maybe having Mendy and Wallace gone will help with the overall attitude, approach to the work in front of them, and the atmosphere

the fact that ben isnt quickly identified as the leader of this team is really starting to bug me.

everyone knew john elway, montana, young, bradshaw, rich gannon, jim kelly, brett favre, marino, aikman, (the list goes on and on and on...) were the leaders of their teams. :noidea:

steelfury02
02-27-2013, 11:48 AM
the fact that ben isnt quickly identified as the leader of this team is really starting to bug me.

everyone knew john elway, montana, young, bradshaw, rich gannon, jim kelly, brett favre, marino, aikman, (the list goes on and on and on...) were the leaders of their teams. :noidea:

sorry If I'm being thick-headed

are you saying Steelers fans should be able to easily identify him because of A,B,C . . . and he is already a leader - or,

there's obvious reasons why people don't - whether it be misguided perception or he actually isn't one

I for one see flashes of it from him, but then again, maybe the quotes from Ward and Chaz about him are a little blown out of proportion - thoughts?

tony hipchest
02-27-2013, 12:03 PM
sorry If I'm being thick-headed

are you saying Steelers fans should be able to easily identify him because of A,B,C . . . and he is already a leader - or,

there's obvious reasons why people don't - whether it be misguided perception or he actually isn't one
I for one see flashes of it from him, but then again, maybe the quotes from Ward and Chaz about him are a little blown out of proportion - thoughts?

the latter...

the bolded portion is problematic. there should be NO question, and ben should be easilly identified as the bona fide leader of the team.

the fact that tomlin had to state that a new leader would have to step up last season (whether it be troy, keisel, yada yada, yada) to replace the likes of farrior, ward, smith. is problematic.

the fact that young players like brown feel the need to step up and be leader need to be problematic.

the fact that ryan clark is publicly addressing and defending woodley, and ben is silent on the situation, is problematic.

the fact that steelerfans want ben to be considered and "elite" top 5 QB, yet rookes such as wilson, griffin, and luck show more leadership skills is problematic.

harrison'samonster
02-27-2013, 12:06 PM
sorry If I'm being thick-headed

are you saying Steelers fans should be able to easily identify him because of A,B,C . . . and he is already a leader - or,

there's obvious reasons why people don't - whether it be misguided perception or he actually isn't one

I for one see flashes of it from him, but then again, maybe the quotes from Ward and Chaz about him are a little blown out of proportion - thoughts?

I honestly don't know how he is off the field, but Ben doesn't seem like a leader on the field. But that's just an appearance and I would defer to the players' opinions.

steelfury02
02-27-2013, 12:07 PM
the latter...

the bolded portion is problematic. there should be NO question, and ben should be easilly identified as the bona fide leader of the team.

the fact that tomlin had to state that a new leader would have to step up last season (whether it be troy, keisel, yada yada, yada) to replace the likes of farrior, ward, smith. is problematic.

the fact that young players like brown feel the need to step up and be leader need to be problematic.

the fact that ryan clark is publicly addressing and defending woodley, and ben is silent on the situation, is problematic.

the fact that steelerfans want ben to be considered and "elite" top 5 QB, yet rookes such as wilson, griffin, and luck show more leadership skills is problematic.

again, very well put and while this subject feels like a dead horse at times - it is part of the bigger leadership void issue they're facing in general

steelfury02
02-27-2013, 12:12 PM
I honestly don't know how he is off the field, but Ben doesn't seem like a leader on the field. But that's just an appearance and I would defer to the players' opinions.

just about the best way you can look at things from a fan's perspective

when I say I saw flashes, I'm actually thinking back to the 2010/11 AFC Divisional (think it was that one) where Ben is walking around the sidelines talking about "all heart"

I saw it a couple of times over the past 2 seasons with some sound FX stuff - but what is problematic is that I'm not seeing a killer attitude from anyone on offense. When was the last time you saw or heard a soundbite of Ben or anyone on offense saying in so many words "Ok, we got them right where we want them, now let's keep the pedal down - don't let down" or "We have to be better than that - we have to get points, we have to take the pressure off our D"

Far too often I notice the towel around the neck and the sigh when they settle for 3 points

I apologize in advance if those exist - I just can't remember those memories being on the surface if they're even there.

pczach
02-27-2013, 04:30 PM
Wow, Roethlisberger can't win. So now he needs to be a leader. He needs to have men follow him and be the vocal leader and conscience of this team. Some of the very people that think he needs to just shut up and run the plays given to him. The very same people that think he's not elite. The very same people that claim he's a piece of shit on and off the field....now want him to lead? So which is it? Either he's an average at best QB that has made a great living riding the coattails of the most dominant defense in the league, or he's elite. Because if he's an average QB, he has no juice on this team or any other team. If you can't play, you're not standing up in front of a locker room full of alpha males, and dictating the mindset of the room. It's not going to happen. He doesn't deserve any input on what plays are called, and what players the team keeps or targets to bring to the Steelers.

I think Ben is a leader. Not in the mold of a Ray Lewis, but with the passion he plays the game with on the field. Nobody plays harder than him at his postion in the NFL. Say what you want about his talent or performance, but the dude won't give up on a single play during the course of a game. He wants it bad. I have seen him go to management and support and recommend the signing of a player that he thinks can help the team. He basically put it out there to the team that he thought Starks could help the Steelers win. They listened to Ben, and Ben was right. Also, since that time, Starks has been a steady positive force on this team. He now honors the game with his play. He didn't do this until Ben stepped in to make this happen. He obviously had a huge impact on Starks in making him understand what is expected of him from an effort standpoint.

Let's also not forget that the vast majority of money on this team goes to the defensive side of the ball. He goes out and does everything he can do to get a win. When games are on the line, it's Ben that rallies the troops on the sidelines and in the huddle. He shows no fear. He just plays the game, and his teammates follow.

So I ask you. Is Ben lucky and overrated, or is he elite? Which is it? Because your answer decides whether he is able to lead or not.

steelfury02
02-27-2013, 06:38 PM
Wow, Roethlisberger can't win. So now he needs to be a leader. He needs to have men follow him and be the vocal leader and conscience of this team. Some of the very people that think he needs to just shut up and run the plays given to him. The very same people that think he's not elite. The very same people that claim he's a piece of shit on and off the field....now want him to lead? So which is it? Either he's an average at best QB that has made a great living riding the coattails of the most dominant defense in the league, or he's elite. Because if he's an average QB, he has no juice on this team or any other team. If you can't play, you're not standing up in front of a locker room full of alpha males, and dictating the mindset of the room. It's not going to happen. He doesn't deserve any input on what plays are called, and what players the team keeps or targets to bring to the Steelers.

I think Ben is a leader. Not in the mold of a Ray Lewis, but with the passion he plays the game with on the field. Nobody plays harder than him at his postion in the NFL. Say what you want about his talent or performance, but the dude won't give up on a single play during the course of a game. He wants it bad. I have seen him go to management and support and recommend the signing of a player that he thinks can help the team. He basically put it out there to the team that he thought Starks could help the Steelers win. They listened to Ben, and Ben was right. Also, since that time, Starks has been a steady positive force on this team. He now honors the game with his play. He didn't do this until Ben stepped in to make this happen. He obviously had a huge impact on Starks in making him understand what is expected of him from an effort standpoint.

Let's also not forget that the vast majority of money on this team goes to the defensive side of the ball. He goes out and does everything he can do to get a win. When games are on the line, it's Ben that rallies the troops on the sidelines and in the huddle. He shows no fear. He just plays the game, and his teammates follow.

So I ask you. Is Ben lucky and overrated, or is he elite? Which is it? Because your answer decides whether he is able to lead or not.

As its been said - you dont need to be in the locker room - sometimes hearing all the quotes out there means a picture of him is adding up - I dont remember an elite offense and I don't certainly have to validate that thought to you - its pretty obvious - whether it be under Whiz, Arians, or Haley - Ben wants to do it his way and frankly - he had 1 top 10 offense in the entire time he's been here. That's not all on him - his supporting cast has let him and the team down the past few seasons - but why add more issues by opening your trap about something that isn't going to help. love him, I love his clutchness of old, I love that he helped put them over the top twice. What has he done lately? I haven't forgotten - I just expected him to graduate to another level that is required of him if he wants another ring.

That no fear stuff is what got him 2 rings - great, what's he gonna do in addition to that? Not enough anymore. He's dying by the sword more often now.

pczach
02-27-2013, 07:03 PM
As its been said - you dont need to be in the locker room - sometimes hearing all the quotes out there means a picture of him is adding up - I dont remember an elite offense and I don't certainly have to validate that thought to you - its pretty obvious - whether it be under Whiz, Arians, or Haley - Ben wants to do it his way and frankly - he had 1 top 10 offense in the entire time he's been here. That's not all on him - his supporting cast has let him and the team down the past few seasons - but why add more issues by opening your trap about something that isn't going to help. love him, I love his clutchness of old, I love that he helped put them over the top twice. What has he done lately? I haven't forgotten - I just expected him to graduate to another level that is required of him if he wants another ring.

That no fear stuff is what got him 2 rings - great, what's he gonna do in addition to that? Not enough anymore. He's dying by the sword more often now.

And your thoughts from your trap about his leadership and the points I made about him? Or maybe you need to validate your own position on Ben. I was commenting and reacting to the question of leadership, or lack thereof, from Ben as questioned here. Why don't you answer the question of leadership instead of taking offense to something you think I am accusing you of. I'm speaking to those of you who don't think he is a great qb, not you specifically. If you suck and blow games you can't stand up and run your mouth, telling fellow players that they are not getting it done, because they will tell you to shut up and sit down. Is he good enough to speak up or not? Answer the question.

And by the way. That no fear stuff is called leading by example. At least that's how I see it. This isn't about living by the sword or dying by the sword. I thought we were talking about leadership. This isn't about you.

Riddle_Of_Steel
02-27-2013, 08:41 PM
So I ask you. Is Ben lucky and overrated, or is he elite? Which is it? Because your answer decides whether he is able to lead or not.

A little bit of both, to be honest.

Ben is a great QB, but he has benefitted from a great defense on the opposite side of the ball (we have yet to make the playoffs with anything less than a top ten defense), and by playing for a great organization that does not draft guys to fill immeidate needs.

it is entirely possible to be both great, but a little overrated.

harrison'samonster
02-27-2013, 08:45 PM
Ben's good enough to be listened too that's for sure, but then again so is Polamalu. Ben's great, but not perfect.

Riddle_Of_Steel
02-27-2013, 08:47 PM
Didn't you know, anyone who says anything negative about the Steelers is an Arians-lover, a Ravens fan, a Browns fan, a fag, a Ben lover, a LeBeau hater, an even bigger fag, a Patriots fans, etc, etc...

Not if they actually have something substantial to discuss.

You can insult the writer of of an article all you want. I think the fact Madden hits a nerve with so many in yinzer nation is because deep down, they know he's spot on about many of the Steelers' problems, but they can't stand anything negative being said about them.

Mark Madden is a known douchebag.

He cites a laundry list of problems, with no mention of context or or how those problems interracted with each other to produce the end result we got. Some of the things he cited were not even a factor. Some of the things he cited were repetitive.

Most of the things on his list have been addressed in other conversations, or are such rare issues that it is likely they were a one-time thing and do not need to be "fixed". Wallace won't be here next year, so his contract woes will not affect the team.

It was an empty article. Sorry.

We have already cited numerous times that the major issue that derailed our season, was the Big Ben injury. We've backed it up with statistical proof, as well as a plethora of logical arguments.

Mark madden did not back up anything he said-- he just threw a bunch of poorly stated tidbits out on the table.

harrison'samonster
02-27-2013, 08:50 PM
Not if they actually have something substantial to discuss.



Mark Madden is a known douchebag.

He cites a laundry list of problems, with no mention of context or or how those problems interracted with each other to produce the end result we got. Some of the things he cited were not even a factor. Some of the things he cited were repetitive.

Most of the things on his list have been addressed in other conversations, or are such rare issues that it is likely they were a one-time thing and do not need to be "fixed". Wallace won't be here next year, so his contract woes will not affect the team.

It was an empty article. Sorry.

We have already cited numerous times that the major issue that derailed our season, was the Big Ben injury. We've backed it up with statistical proof, as well as a plethora of logical arguments.

Mark madden did not back up anything he said-- he just threw a bunch of poorly stated tidbits out on the table.

very well said. This article is nothing but an opinion piece. And it happens to be the opinion of an idiot.

BKAnthem
02-27-2013, 08:54 PM
the latter...

the bolded portion is problematic. there should be NO question, and ben should be easilly identified as the bona fide leader of the team.

the fact that tomlin had to state that a new leader would have to step up last season (whether it be troy, keisel, yada yada, yada) to replace the likes of farrior, ward, smith. is problematic.

the fact that young players like brown feel the need to step up and be leader need to be problematic.

the fact that ryan clark is publicly addressing and defending woodley, and ben is silent on the situation, is problematic.

the fact that steelerfans want ben to be considered and "elite" top 5 QB, yet rookes such as wilson, griffin, and luck show more leadership skills is problematic.

I've noticed that too...But it has been written that Ben is more the Aloof, asshole type than leader....

Riddle_Of_Steel
02-27-2013, 09:06 PM
Turmoil didn't cause 8-8; 8-8 caused turmoil.

Uh-oh, Mark Madden trying to be philosophical....

But the fact remains that the Steelers locker room appears lousy with malcontents, laggards and tattletales. Which is worst? That's in the eye of the beholder

Even though he used the word "fact: to start his sentence, he presents none here-- just his opinion.

Such malaise is common with most NFL teams. Localization thereof is just another reminder that the Steelers are no longer a "special" franchise - if they ever were.

Again, no facts-- just Madden's poorly worded opinions.


Coach Mike Tomlin is hardly blameless. He seems to cede a bit more control and lose a bit more discipline every year.

Source? Facts?

Linebacker LaMarr Woodley is the founder of the latest tempest. Critics like Ryan Clark may characterize the unnamed Steeler source as a rat, but no one is calling that unnamed source a liar.

The "latest"? Was there others we are not aware of?

It's common knowledge that Woodley was out of shape, overweight and lacked dedication. The proof was in his season: Just four sacks and a level of invisibility the Steelers can't afford from an edge rusher.

Took Madden until his fourth paragraph to finally cite an actual problem.

Clark and Antonio Brown are right when they say the matter should have been kept in-house. But, given that, why did they keep discussing it publicly?

They didn't.

Oh, right: Got to get on TV.

More Madden editorial-- but still no FACTS.

What's a bigger sin: Tanking a season due to lard and laziness, like Woodley? Or calling Woodley out anonymously after the fact? Stinking, or snitching?

Going 8-8 suggests the former. Gangsta culture dictates the latter.

Who cares? A distinction that is pointless to make. 8-8 is a mediocre season-- notice how Maddden has to use hyperbole and superlatives to get his point across?

Hines Ward knows where things went wrong: He retired. Humility lives.

I am still waiting for Madden to cite something factual that we can discuss or consider. So, if we had not retired Ward--- we would be in the Superbowl this year?

"When you lose so much leadership in the locker room, that is where things present itself like that," Ward told the NFL Network.

Okay, so I think Madden is saying we lost a lot of veteran leadership. You do realize this is a natural process in the NFL.....right? Nobody is ageless-- eventually the vets have to move on.

The Steelers don't lack leadership. They lack followers. The Young Money Crew and the Florida Gators posse (known collectively as the No-Ring Mafia) seem to believe they got NFL life figured out. So shut up, Troy.

Once again, more of Madden's editorial, but nothing factual or concrete.

The Steelers also lack self-awareness. The Steelers, as an organization and as individuals, are rarely made to experience an unpleasant moment. As a result, they seem to believe they shouldn't. They run this town, and they know it.

More editorial but no facts.

But when you go 8-8 and miss the playoffs, you don't get treated like immortals coated in Teflon. Punks, loafers and lousy performances get called out.

Humiliation isn't always bad. It can motivate. Woodley's problems weren't sorted out internally, or privately. So tell the outside world and see what happens.

Some feel Mike Wallace's impending departure (via Rolls-Royce

Phantom) will restore order. But there is a lot more than one bad apple.

Still waiting on something factual or concrete-- all I am reading is some Rush Limbaugh-like filibustering.

The idea of a player currently without a contract or team purchasing a car that costs $500K is dumbfounding, isn't it? Wallace is in a temporary profession making temporary money. But someday he'll be a TV star: Wallace will be the primary protagonist on ESPN 30 for 30's "Broke 2."

Maybe, but I think that the American way is for guys to be able to spend their hard-earned money however they want. We did not go 8-8 because Wallace bought a Roll-Royce.

More filibustering.

So, how will the Steelers straighten out their locker room?

The same way 31 other teams rebuild their lockerroom-- drafting guys with character and some veterans generally step up.


The Steelers' biggest problem has traditionally been when they don't recognize there's a problem. But perhaps the Steelers' current problems are too big. Perhaps too many bad actors populate their roster. Perhaps there are insufficient replacements for the broken parts that need to be replaced.

Now we have Madden speculating about the vague things he has been blabbering about for the last page or so.

Only one thing seems certain: The Steelers are a lot closer to a losing season than they are a Super Bowl.

Based on what? Does Maddden have even a single statistical study to prove this?

On the field, the Steelers' best bet is turning their hopes over to Ben Roethlisberger, one of football's top five quarterbacks. But tradition dictates the Steelers strive for balance on offense and hard-hitting defense. Don't let Roethlisberger win the game in the first quarter. Ask him to bail you out in the last.

Zzzzzzz....

Didn't work in 2012. Won't work in 2013. Between inferior weaponry and outdated philosophy, the Steelers are wasting their $102 million quarterback.

Madden never cited "inferior weaponry" or "outdated philosophy" anywhere else in his tirade. Now he is just throwing as much BS at the reader as possible in the hopes he can slip some of his nonsense by without notice.


You think 8-8 caused turmoil? We might see what 6-10 produces.

We might see what 19-0 produces too. Nothing earth-shattering here....just a very typical Mark Madden mouth diarhea.

harrison'samonster
02-27-2013, 09:11 PM
Riddle of Steel that post is spot on. Thanks!

Hawaii 5-0
02-27-2013, 09:11 PM
very well said. This article is nothing but an opinion piece. And it happens to be the opinion of an idiot.

even worse, an idiot with a megaphone...

pczach
02-27-2013, 09:24 PM
The sky is falling tone of this article is frankly ridiculous. This from a guy that has watched this franchise have massive success for years now. I really don't know how anybody can say that they definitively know that the Steelers are in real trouble. Everything we know about this team and how they quickly rebound and reload makes it hard to fathom how anybody could give up on them so quickly. It just doesn't compute.

Riddle_Of_Steel
02-27-2013, 09:29 PM
The sky is falling tone of this article is frankly ridiculous. This from a guy that has watched this franchise have massive success for years now. I really don't know how anybody can say that they definitively know that the Steelers are in real trouble. Everything we know about this team and how they quickly rebound and reload makes it hard to fathom how anybody could give up on them so quickly. It just doesn't compute.

Exactly.

The Steelers have gone through this same thing before. They will be fine.

There are some issues with the team, that is true of any offseason.

But I honestly feel like some folks are using the 8-8 season as an "open enrollment" period to throw any personal gripes they have been carrying with them about the Steelers, out on the table now that we have a ball of negativity rolling here.

Don't like Colon's neutral zone infractions? Shit, that must be why we went 8-8 this year.

Don't like that Mike Wallace went out like a thug and bought a Rolls-Royce with the money he does not yet have? We went 8-8 because of that?

harrison'samonster
02-27-2013, 09:48 PM
Exactly.

The Steelers have gone through this same thing before. They will be fine.

There are some issues with the team, that is true of any offseason.

But I honestly feel like some folks are using the 8-8 season as an "open enrollment" period to throw any personal gripes they have been carrying with them about the Steelers, out on the table now that we have a ball of negativity rolling here.

Don't like Colon's neutral zone infractions? Shit, that must be why we went 8-8 this year.

Don't like that Mike Wallace went out like a thug and bought a Rolls-Royce with the money he does not yet have? We went 8-8 because of that?

I hate to say "I told you so", but after we went 9-7 in '09 I said we were going to get worse. Now here we are after an 8-8 season. I don't like to toot my own horn but I'm felling pretty big right now.

steelfury02
02-28-2013, 09:43 AM
And your thoughts from your trap about his leadership and the points I made about him? Or maybe you need to validate your own position on Ben. I was commenting and reacting to the question of leadership, or lack thereof, from Ben as questioned here. Why don't you answer the question of leadership instead of taking offense to something you think I am accusing you of. I'm speaking to those of you who don't think he is a great qb, not you specifically. If you suck and blow games you can't stand up and run your mouth, telling fellow players that they are not getting it done, because they will tell you to shut up and sit down. Is he good enough to speak up or not? Answer the question.

And by the way. That no fear stuff is called leading by example. At least that's how I see it. This isn't about living by the sword or dying by the sword. I thought we were talking about leadership. This isn't about you.

My position on Ben is what it always has been: I think he is a 2 time SB winning QB that might have seen his best days already. I love what he did, don't care for his decision making off the field and based on what teammates have said - doesn't sound like the leaders he should be. His quotes this past season sound like a guy that is bucking change. It sounds like the same Ben who couldn't work with Whiz because he wouldn't give him the keys to the car. Ben's play is so unique, I've never witnessed another QB like him, but I think he could be even better ala in releasing the ball quickly and finding a myriad of weapons. I don't think Ben knows what is best in terms of putting the offense on his shoulders and helping them score points more consistently. People say his hands are tied. I say he's lucky to have his hands considering Arians just let him stand back there on 5-7 step drops with a patch work O-line and getting pummeled just as much as he's getting plays.

I see flashes of leadership, and I see flashes of what he could do to his game. I also see a guy that is capable of helping the Steelers seriously contend for 2-3 more seasons if he can step it up in the leadership and teammate category. Sometimes being a leader is knowing when to trust in others - he cannot have full control of the offense - he'll get himself out of the game even faster.

He has the winning record and 2 rings to step it up. The past is the past. He HAS to be the one to step up if they want another ring before his time is done. I think you make a good point about him lobbying for Starks - that was one of the best things Ben has helped the Steelers realize - also, him wanting a big target is something that has fallen on deaf ears - even in bringing Plax back and the Young Money crew sucking it up - they didn't let Plax or Cotch get enough looks towards the end. I think that's why Haley was looking to utilize Heath more - to fulfill Ben's desires. I don't think we can call the new scheme a failure until we get to see a full compliment of weapons, including our QB stay healthy and get some gelling going over time.

Anyone can sit here and say the Giants were playing terrible/mediocre football - but, they were the defending champs - something we used to be - people still consider a victory against the defending champs a defining moment of the season - and, I don't think its ludicrous to say if guys stayed healthy, we would have taken Bmore and the division. Ben and that offense was starting to eat up time on the clock and getting the ball out quickly to 10 different receivers. At only the half-way point and beating the defending champs - no one can say they weren't excited about the prospects of Ben becoming deadly efficient on top of his sandlot style.

pczach
02-28-2013, 03:04 PM
My position on Ben is what it always has been: I think he is a 2 time SB winning QB that might have seen his best days already. I love what he did, don't care for his decision making off the field and based on what teammates have said - doesn't sound like the leaders he should be. His quotes this past season sound like a guy that is bucking change. It sounds like the same Ben who couldn't work with Whiz because he wouldn't give him the keys to the car. Ben's play is so unique, I've never witnessed another QB like him, but I think he could be even better ala in releasing the ball quickly and finding a myriad of weapons. I don't think Ben knows what is best in terms of putting the offense on his shoulders and helping them score points more consistently. People say his hands are tied. I say he's lucky to have his hands considering Arians just let him stand back there on 5-7 step drops with a patch work O-line and getting pummeled just as much as he's getting plays.

I see flashes of leadership, and I see flashes of what he could do to his game. I also see a guy that is capable of helping the Steelers seriously contend for 2-3 more seasons if he can step it up in the leadership and teammate category. Sometimes being a leader is knowing when to trust in others - he cannot have full control of the offense - he'll get himself out of the game even faster.

He has the winning record and 2 rings to step it up. The past is the past. He HAS to be the one to step up if they want another ring before his time is done. I think you make a good point about him lobbying for Starks - that was one of the best things Ben has helped the Steelers realize - also, him wanting a big target is something that has fallen on deaf ears - even in bringing Plax back and the Young Money crew sucking it up - they didn't let Plax or Cotch get enough looks towards the end. I think that's why Haley was looking to utilize Heath more - to fulfill Ben's desires. I don't think we can call the new scheme a failure until we get to see a full compliment of weapons, including our QB stay healthy and get some gelling going over time.

Anyone can sit here and say the Giants were playing terrible/mediocre football - but, they were the defending champs - something we used to be - people still consider a victory against the defending champs a defining moment of the season - and, I don't think its ludicrous to say if guys stayed healthy, we would have taken Bmore and the division. Ben and that offense was starting to eat up time on the clock and getting the ball out quickly to 10 different receivers. At only the half-way point and beating the defending champs - no one can say they weren't excited about the prospects of Ben becoming deadly efficient on top of his sandlot style.

Good post, and I think a pretty good summation of some of the problems from this past year,