PDA

View Full Version : Tomlin


desertsteel
03-24-2013, 11:24 PM
We have all been pretty spoiled around here with good coaches and essentially no attrition. Noll, Cowher and now Tomlin. While Tomlin has his detractors, he's taken us to two Super Bowls and won one. For the first 3-4 years I was liking Tomlin better than Cowher. I could never forgive Bill for his love affair with Kordell. Tomlin's speeches always fired me up. But for the past couple years, it has become just rhetoric to me when I hear it. I'm really looking for Tomlin to have a big bounce back season as a coach this year. I've always believed that in the NFL, a great coach and a great QB were the combination needed for success in the NFL. I'm ready for him and Ben to take us back to prominence.

Hawaii 5-0
03-25-2013, 12:19 AM
I'm glad Mike Tomlin is our head coach...:tt02:

http://www.bullcitystateofmind.com/storage/tomlin.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=134783848197 4

jb500ex
03-25-2013, 05:40 AM
Most overrated coach in the league he flat out can't coach but he speaks real nice

Buddha Bus
03-25-2013, 05:55 AM
Most overrated coach in the league he flat out can't coach but he speaks real nice


Yes, because generally coaches who normally take their team to the playoffs, make 2 Super Bowl appearances, and win one within a 6-year period are pretty much considered a bust as far as coaches go. :dang:

I'm not saying Tomlin doesn't have his faults, but every coach does. Nobody's perfect, but to assert he can't coach at all is flat out absurd.

Steel_Bus_24
03-25-2013, 06:26 AM
Tomlin is a good coach....but this year is a critical year IMO....he needs to grow as well as the team. I think he can be more then just a good coach...I think he can be an all-time great

We have a franchise QB....and Im going to see it as a bit of a failure if we don't get back to 2 more SBs in his tenure(Bens)

Tomlin needs to clean up the lack of discipline and focus.....No more of this sh**

1. Dropping games to inferior competition and struggling against countless others...
2. Leading the league in penalties
3. God Awful Special Teams
4. Game management(Challenges/Decisions to kick FGs)

Buddha Bus
03-25-2013, 06:30 AM
Tomlin is a good coach....but this year is a critical year IMO....he needs to grow as well as the team. I think he can be more then just a good coach...I think he can be an all-time great

We have a franchise QB....and Im going to see it as a bit of a failure if we don't get back to 2 more SBs in his tenure(Bens)

Tomlin needs to clean up the lack of discipline and focus.....No more of this sh**

1. Dropping games to inferior competition and struggling against countless others...
2. Leading the league in penalties
3. God Awful Special Teams
4. Game management(Challenges/Decisions to kick FGs)

Now this is a fair and reasonable assessment of Tomlin.

wwhickok
03-25-2013, 06:35 AM
Most overrated coach in the league he flat out can't coach but he speaks real nice


Most overrated user on this forum. Just sayin'

Steel_Bus_24
03-25-2013, 06:41 AM
I want to see the Steelers excited to be out there again and lighting people up.....Too many times last year...even in their wins, it took an act of God to get the team truly motivated.

I really believe half the battle for Tomlin will be just to get these guys up and ready for battle.

VaDave
03-25-2013, 06:42 AM
...

VaDave
03-25-2013, 06:43 AM
Most overrated user on this forum. Just sayin'

Zing! Right twixt the lookers!

VaDave
03-25-2013, 06:50 AM
Tomlin is young. Real young, and it shows. Most coaches his ages are still coaching high school or as grad assistants in college learning the trade.

Considering he's coaching a team worth about a billion dollars, with players than make more money than they'll ever be able to waste in a lifetime, in a league that is hell bent on passing rule after rule to inhibit the best part of his game, not to mention, coaching a team for the most ungracious fans in the league, I'd say he's done remarkably well.

pete74
03-25-2013, 06:56 AM
I like Tomlin. There are better coaches but there are alot worse. Regardless of who your coach is there will always be complaints because nobody is perfect and even if there was a such thing as a perfect coach the players failures end up being blamed on the coach.
With that said Ben only has four years left. Tomlin should be trying to build a team to make a run in that span. If we don't get another ring before Ben retires Tomlin will get the blame.

VaDave
03-25-2013, 07:21 AM
Speaking of long tenured ( six or more years) coaches, what is so wonderful about the following list:

Jeff Fisher
Norv Turner
the Jets Ryan
Marvin Lewis
Gary Kubiak who has had a loaded club for the last 5 years
Smith in Atlanta who has a franchise QB

l'll grant you that Belichek is probably the best pro coach in the biz, and lets place John Harbaugh ( after this comming season, (you can book it), he's not going to look that great. Other than them, who else ya got?

The deal is, there aren't many wiz bang coaches, and even the best, makes his share of bone head moves. When I take a look around the league, and see what has passed for success, I'm fairly content with what we have.

wwhickok
03-25-2013, 07:55 AM
To me, Ryan, Fisher, Turner, and Lewis are garbage. Fisher albeit having coached playoff teams has never won a super bowl. Turner failed miserably, Ryan is a joke and Lewis is one of the most overrated coaches in the league. He hasn't done anything worthy of discussion.

Bellichick may bebthe best, but he is also, imo, near the end of his career. Tomlin is the best young coach in the league and Harbaugh is only 'good'to because he copies Tomlin.

OX1947
03-25-2013, 08:58 AM
Tomlin is ok. Nothing special, little overrated. Horrible 4th quarter manager. No killer instinct, no stomp on your throat mentality.

ZoneBlitzer
03-25-2013, 10:36 AM
Tomlin is ok. Nothing special, little overrated. Horrible 4th quarter manager. No killer instinct, no stomp on your throat mentality.

Agreed. The issue I have with Tomlin is that the team has been fading over the years in terms of playing effective and efficient football. Cowher had achieved a level of mastery where he knew how to kill the clock to put the game away. That took years to develop though. With MT we are seeing a rather negative trend of a team that loses focus and lacks discipline. Most of this is seen on the offensive side of the ball. They struggle to put up points and turn the ball over too much. The lack of discipline last season is a major concern. Tomlin needs better discernment and judgement for what goes on practice. Instead of the standard is the standard, it should be the standard is very high. Now we'll see just what kind of coach they have in Tomlin.

Quackjack
03-25-2013, 10:58 AM
Tomlin is a fucking badass.

Not the best, but hey, only Belicheck is worthy of the HOF as of now.

TheVet
03-25-2013, 11:12 AM
To me, Ryan, Fisher, Turner, and Lewis are garbage. Fisher albeit having coached playoff teams has never won a super bowl. Turner failed miserably, Ryan is a joke and Lewis is one of the most overrated coaches in the league. He hasn't done anything worthy of discussion.

Bellichick may bebthe best, but he is also, imo, near the end of his career. Tomlin is the best young coach in the league and Harbaugh is only 'good'to because he copies Tomlin.

Look, Tomlin's an OK coach, but honestly, there's no way he's near the class of the Harbaughs. I know we love to hate them, but that doesn't mean we should give up all objectivity. By all means, cheer for your team, but always respect excellence when you see it!

desertsteel
03-25-2013, 11:28 AM
Look, Tomlin's an OK coach, but honestly, there's no way he's near the class of the Harbaughs. I know we love to hate them, but that doesn't mean we should give up all objectivity. By all means, cheer for your team, but always respect excellence when you see it!

Why is Harbaugh a better coach? The results are comparable and Tomlin is 9 years younger. I do like Jim, but after only 2 years to say that he's a great NFL coach is about as ludicrous as listing Kaepernick as a top 5 QB after 10 games.

Tomlin, age 41, 6 years as HC:
63-33 (.656) Reg Season
5-3 (.625) Playoffs
Super Bowls 2 (1-1)

John Harbaugh, age 50, 5 years as HC:
54-26 (.675) Reg Season
9-4 (.692) Playoffs
Super Bowls 1 (1-0)

WVABE
03-25-2013, 11:31 AM
I wouldn't exactly say Chucks second half of his career was HOF worthy, coachs have their ups&downs too.

JackH
03-25-2013, 12:08 PM
Tomlin is a fucking badass.

Not the best, but hey, only Belicheck is worthy of the HOF as of now.

I agree with your first statement, but not your second.

What's Belichick done lately? And a couple of those Super Bowls he won way back when are more than a little tainted.

And let's not forget that Chuck Noll was responsible for the Steelers drafting Gabriel Rivera in the first round in 1983 instead of Dan Marino.

steelersforever58
03-25-2013, 12:24 PM
Most overrated coach in the league he flat out can't coach

I am honestly not asking this to be a dick or start a verbal argument, but what are your qualifications to make such a judgement?

jb500ex
03-25-2013, 12:26 PM
Why is Harbaugh a better coach? The results are comparable and Tomlin is 9 years younger. I do like Jim, but after only 2 years to say that he's a great NFL coach is about as ludicrous as listing Kaepernick as a top 5 QB after 10 games.

Tomlin, age 41, 6 years as HC:
63-33 (.656) Reg Season
5-3 (.625) Playoffs
Super Bowls 2 (1-1)

John Harbaugh, age 50, 5 years as HC:
54-26 (.675) Reg Season
9-4 (.692) Playoffs
Super Bowls 1 (1-0)

Your making the argument why harbaugh is a better coach and he is its not close. Give Tomlin the miners qbs and see where he goes. Shit Tomlin hasn't won even a playoff game in 4 of his 6 seasons with Ben. He has no ability to game plan or adjust and never has the team ready to play. This team has come out flat since tomlins second game. We would be light years ahead with either harbaugh. Tomlin has shown he can't even maintain a talented team harbaugh has built a program and turned the niners in probably the top team

OX1947
03-25-2013, 12:26 PM
I wouldn't exactly say Chucks second half of his career was HOF worthy, coachs have their ups&downs too.

80s were tough financially for the Steelers. Plus not having a decent QB.

steelfury02
03-25-2013, 12:48 PM
outside of Arians and Whiz who are just about never going to coach here - who the hell do you haters want - because those two options are not even legit

fansince'76
03-25-2013, 01:00 PM
Look, Tomlin's an OK coach, but honestly, there's no way he's near the class of the Harbaughs. I know we love to hate them, but that doesn't mean we should give up all objectivity. By all means, cheer for your team, but always respect excellence when you see it!

Once again...

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/garyb12001/Tomlin-Harbaugh-head-2-head.jpg

Advantage: Tomlin 7-5, including 2-0 postseason.

Likewise, don't let being pissed off about a down season cloud your objectivity.

sloppyjoe
03-25-2013, 02:29 PM
tomlin is a mediocre coach in an ideal environment.
numerous coaches would be just as successful if they were given the job.

RavenManiac
03-25-2013, 02:42 PM
I think Jim Harbaugh >> John Harbaugh or Tomlin

I think Tomlin and John Harbaugh are very similar.

Neither get too involved with X's and O's. Both are more motivational coaches than strategists.

Both have issues with gameday responsibilities, timeouts, 4th down calls, challenges (but most coaches do, and a lot are worse).

Both inherited good, solid, stable organizations/situations and haven't dropped the ball. And in this respect I agree that there are several/many HC's in the league that could have achieved the same as either Tomlin or John Harbaugh but for the fact they were hired by dysfunctional franchises.

Jim Harbaugh though really turned around a franchise that was in the skids, and he did so immediately. He also went out of his way to draft Kaepernick, who I admit is overhyped right now, but I think will be pretty good. He also turned Alex Smith into a viable winner purely through coaching and scheme

BengalDestroyer
03-25-2013, 03:01 PM
Tomlin is a good coach....but this year is a critical year IMO....he needs to grow as well as the team. I think he can be more then just a good coach...I think he can be an all-time great

We have a franchise QB....and Im going to see it as a bit of a failure if we don't get back to 2 more SBs in his tenure(Bens)

Tomlin needs to clean up the lack of discipline and focus.....No more of this sh**

1. Dropping games to inferior competition and struggling against countless others...
2. Leading the league in penalties
3. God Awful Special Teams
4. Game management(Challenges/Decisions to kick FGs)

PERFECTLY put. That's exactly what I've been saying since mmmm we lost to the tits... in '12

desertsteel
03-25-2013, 03:02 PM
Your making the argument why harbaugh is a better coach and he is its not close. Give Tomlin the miners qbs and see where he goes. Shit Tomlin hasn't won even a playoff game in 4 of his 6 seasons with Ben. He has no ability to game plan or adjust and never has the team ready to play. This team has come out flat since tomlins second game. We would be light years ahead with either harbaugh. Tomlin has shown he can't even maintain a talented team harbaugh has built a program and turned the niners in probably the top team

Like fansince76 pointed out, head to head:

Tomlin 7-5, including 2-0 postseason.

And don't even make the argument that the Steelers have always had better talent because that would further show your already apparent ignorance, or worse, your love for the ratbirds.

teegre
03-25-2013, 03:13 PM
What's Mike Wallace up to?

Steeldude
03-25-2013, 03:31 PM
We have all been pretty spoiled around here with good coaches and essentially no attrition. Noll, Cowher and now Tomlin. While Tomlin has his detractors, he's taken us to two Super Bowls and won one. For the first 3-4 years I was liking Tomlin better than Cowher. I could never forgive Bill for his love affair with Kordell. Tomlin's speeches always fired me up. But for the past couple years, it has become just rhetoric to me when I hear it. I'm really looking for Tomlin to have a big bounce back season as a coach this year. I've always believed that in the NFL, a great coach and a great QB were the combination needed for success in the NFL. I'm ready for him and Ben to take us back to prominence.

The FO was more in love with Kordell. Cowher had to work with what he was given.

teegre
03-25-2013, 03:38 PM
The FO was more in love with Kordell. Cowher had to work with what he was given.

Cowher passes on Brees. (Ouch.)

Cowher passed on Pennington. (Not a bad choice.)

Cowher tried to pass on BB... but, thankfully, The Rooneys strongly urged Cowher to draft the Miami QB.

SteelersCanada
03-25-2013, 03:41 PM
The FO was more in love with Kordell. Cowher had to work with what he was given.

You think he was just completely out of the loop in terms of drafting players? Also, as Teegre said, he wanted Phillip Rivers over Ben Roethlisberger if he had the chance. Something tells me that San Diego would love a do-over with that pick.

teegre
03-25-2013, 03:52 PM
You think he was just completely out of the loop in terms of drafting players? Also, as Teegre said, he wanted Phillip Rivers over Ben Roethlisberger if he had the chance. Something tells me that San Diego would love a do-over with that pick.

Worse: he wanted Shawn Andrews (an average RG) over ANY of those QBs (Eli, BB, Rivers).

If Cowher had a flaw, it was his deeming of the QB position as being unimportant.

Hawaii 5-0
03-25-2013, 03:55 PM
Worse: he wanted Shawn Andrews (an average RG) over ANY of those QBs (Eli, BB, Rivers).

If Cowher had a flaw, it was his deeming of the QB position as being unimportant.

which is probably why Cowher never won a Super Bowl until Ben was forced on him...

teegre
03-25-2013, 04:03 PM
which is probably why Cowher never won a Super Bowl until Ben was forced on him...

Exactly.

JackH
03-25-2013, 04:03 PM
I think Jim Harbaugh >> John Harbaugh or Tomlin

Jim Harbaugh though really turned around a franchise that was in the skids, and he did so immediately. He also went out of his way to draft Kaepernick, who I admit is overhyped right now, but I think will be pretty good. He also turned Alex Smith into a viable winner purely through coaching and scheme

Yeah, his parents should have named him Jesus instead of Jim. Jesus and John, now that's biblical.

You could make the point that he had better teams the last two years than the Ravens and the Giants and should have two Super Bowl rings instead of zero.

He better win the Super Bowl this season or somebody will say he's worse than Tomlin. I mean, he does have the QB he wants and 14 draft picks.

OX1947
03-25-2013, 04:07 PM
Cowher passes on Brees. (Ouch.)

Cowher passed on Pennington. (Not a bad choice.)

Cowher tried to pass on BB... but, thankfully, The Rooneys strongly urged Cowher to draft the Miami QB.

Yah well, Jerry West, arguably the greatest GM in sports history wanted Sydney Moncrief #1 in 1979 NBA draft, but Dr Jerry Buss told him no, and wanted Magic Johnson. Even the great ones aren't always great. Drafts are always a crap shoot, no matter how you look at it. Half of the players picked in the 1st round of the NFL draft end up as busts or marginal players. It's easy to judge after the fact, but during, its still a gamble no matter how you look at it.

desertsteel
03-25-2013, 04:11 PM
The FO was more in love with Kordell. Cowher had to work with what he was given.
That's not what I saw.

harrison'samonster
03-25-2013, 04:32 PM
Yeah, his parents should have named him Jesus instead of Jim. Jesus and John, now that's biblical.

You could make the point that he had better teams the last two years than the Ravens and the Giants and should have two Super Bowl rings instead of zero.

He better win the Super Bowl this season or somebody will say he's worse than Tomlin. I mean, he does have the QB he wants and 14 draft picks.

not to mention the 49ers have picked high in the draft going back how long? They've hit on those picks and that team has been loaded for a few years. I still disagree that Harbaugh came along and save the niners. That team was loaded on both sides of the ball and his ability to work with the QB position is what put them over the top.

Steelers5895
03-25-2013, 05:16 PM
I love Tomlin. He like any other coach will have their bad moments.

The thing I don't like how politically correct he acts. I'd like to see him pound a team into the ground. He gets a lead and looks to run the game clock out.

teegre
03-25-2013, 05:43 PM
Yah well, Jerry West, arguably the greatest GM in sports history wanted Sydney Moncrief #1 in 1979 NBA draft, but Dr Jerry Buss told him no, and wanted Magic Johnson. Even the great ones aren't always great. Drafts are always a crap shoot, no matter how you look at it. Half of the players picked in the 1st round of the NFL draft end up as busts or marginal players. It's easy to judge after the fact, but during, its still a gamble no matter how you look at it.

Touche.

Although, West never passed on Worthy nor Kobe. And, once West got Magic, he didn't try to bench him (in favor of Tommy Maddox).

VaDave
03-25-2013, 08:11 PM
Touche.

Although, West never passed on Worthy nor Kobe. And, once West got Magic, he didn't try to bench him (in favor of Tommy Maddox).

He also brought in Cooper, Woolrich, Kupchack, Norm Nixon, that little shooting guard, and KAREEM flippen JABBAR.... uh, I say he did ok.....

VaDave
03-25-2013, 08:14 PM
Why is Harbaugh a better coach? The results are comparable and Tomlin is 9 years younger. I do like Jim, but after only 2 years to say that he's a great NFL coach is about as ludicrous as listing Kaepernick as a top 5 QB after 10 games.

Tomlin, age 41, 6 years as HC:
63-33 (.656) Reg Season
5-3 (.625) Playoffs
Super Bowls 2 (1-1)

John Harbaugh, age 50, 5 years as HC:
54-26 (.675) Reg Season
9-4 (.692) Playoffs
Super Bowls 1 (1-0)

I would love to compare 6 year records after this season. John Harbaugh, had a lot of his coaching skills leave town... if you get my drift.....

casteeler
03-25-2013, 09:46 PM
tomlin is a mediocre coach in an ideal environment.
numerous coaches would be just as successful if they were given the job.

Well put Sir. We'll see how good a coach Tomlin is now that the team is fighting an uphill climb. Tomlin was given a Racecar that he's won a few races with now it's starting to sputter,question is can he fix it

Quackjack
03-25-2013, 09:54 PM
Well put Sir. We'll see how good a coach Tomlin is now that the team is fighting an uphill climb. Tomlin was given a Racecar that he's won a few races with now it's starting to sputter,question is can he fix it

You fuckin' stupid?

casteeler
03-25-2013, 10:07 PM
You fuckin' stupid?

Why can't you see anyone's point of view but your own? Seems you can't find out how to take off your rose colored glasses:pity:

SteelersCanada
03-25-2013, 10:07 PM
You fuckin' stupid?

He loves loves loves Bill Cowher and has the rose colored glasses of his balls on his eyes. You'll have to excuse him - Cowher's nutsack is clouding his vision.

In all seriousness, they were both good coaches that won Super Bowls so why are we comparing them? Let's just move on and burn the boats, shall we?

Quackjack
03-25-2013, 10:14 PM
He loves loves loves Bill Cowher and has the rose colored glasses of his balls on his eyes. You'll have to excuse him - Cowher's nutsack is clouding his vision.

In all seriousness, they were both good coaches that won Super Bowls so why are we comparing them? Let's just move on and burn the boats, shall we?

Don't ya know Cowher was perfect?

The Kordell thing never happened.

Anyways, I agree.

casteeler
03-25-2013, 10:14 PM
He loves loves loves Bill Cowher and has the rose colored glasses of his balls on his eyes. You'll have to excuse him - Cowher's nutsack is clouding his vision.

In all seriousness, they were both good coaches that won Super Bowls so why are we comparing them? Let's just move on and burn the boats, shall we?

Ahhh, I knew as soon as something negative was said about Tomlin you'd be there to make some hilarious comment.

Quackjack
03-26-2013, 08:56 AM
Ahhh, I knew as soon as something negative was said about Tomlin you'd be there to make some hilarious comment.

Ahhh, I knew as soon as something positive was said about Tomlin you'd be there to make some nonsensical comment.

SteelersCanada
03-26-2013, 09:17 AM
Ahhh, I knew as soon as something negative was said about Tomlin you'd be there to make some hilarious comment.

I wasn't trying to be funny, I was saying we should burn the boats and move on because Cowher isn't coaching this team anymore and thus comparing those two coaches is beyond stupid.

Move on - he's not the coach anymore.

BKAnthem
03-26-2013, 09:37 AM
Most overrated coach in the league he flat out can't coach but he speaks real nice

:blah:...Bullshit

SteelersCanada
03-26-2013, 09:39 AM
:blah:...Bullshit

Some people on here are unreal.

I was talking to my Jets buddy about how Steelers fans don't like Tomlin and think we should trade Ben and he put it pretty bluntly:

"Wanna trade? We'll take Mike and Ben, and you take Rex and fucking Sanchez."

Millers the sh!t
03-26-2013, 01:26 PM
Tomlin is young. Real young, and it shows. Most coaches his ages are still coaching high school or as grad assistants in college learning the trade.

Considering he's coaching a team worth about a billion dollars, with players than make more money than they'll ever be able to waste in a lifetime, in a league that is hell bent on passing rule after rule to inhibit the best part of his game, not to mention, coaching a team for the most ungracious fans in the league, I'd say he's done remarkably well.

I'm a bug Tomlin critic. But reminders like this about his age makes.me shut up sometimes. I still think that he lost a little momentum and could be a little harder on our guys but he is great for his age. O don't agree about the spending thing... A lot of players are bankrupt before they even retire, and for the most part, a lot of the defensive riles that are put.in place were created or heavily supported by the Roonies. Which bugs the shit out of me....

Hawaii 5-0
03-26-2013, 02:52 PM
Some people on here are unreal.

I was talking to my Jets buddy about how Steelers fans don't like Tomlin and think we should trade Ben and he put it pretty bluntly:

"Wanna trade? We'll take Mike and Ben, and you take Rex and fucking Sanchez."

Rex would enjoy coaching Larry Foote...

teegre
03-26-2013, 02:53 PM
Rex would enjoy coaching Larry Foote...

Nice.

Hawaii 5-0
03-26-2013, 03:21 PM
Some people on here are unreal.

I was talking to my Jets buddy about how Steelers fans don't like Tomlin and think we should trade Ben and he put it pretty bluntly:

"Wanna trade? We'll take Mike and Ben, and you take Rex and fucking Sanchez."

http://gamedayr.com/wp-content/slideshow/2013/01/the-25-best-manti-te-o-memes/full/manti-teo-memes-7.jpg

Steeldude
03-26-2013, 05:47 PM
That's not what I saw.

Constant benching. To the point Kordell cried tears. He even gave Graham a shot because that's all the FO would give him. Thankfully Maddox came along and ended the ridiculous experiment. The FO is still drafting running QBs who can't throw after Cowher left(See Dixon). I am hoping they finally learned their lesson

teegre
03-26-2013, 05:49 PM
Constant benching. To the point Kordell cried tears. He even gave Graham a shot because that's all the FO would give him. Thankfully Maddox came along and ended the ridiculous experiment. The FO is still drafting running QBs who can't throw after Cowher left(See Dixon). I am hoping they finally learned their lesson

Drew Brees would have ended that experiment a year sooner... and been a whole lot better.

Buddha Bus
03-26-2013, 05:52 PM
Drew Brees would have ended that experiment a year sooner... and been a whole lot better.

Actually, Brees was kind of mediocre his first few years with the Chargers. It wasn't until they drafted Rivers that something clicked with him and he went on a tear. The Chargers had a tough decision to make at that point and they chose unwisely.

teegre
03-26-2013, 06:02 PM
Actually, Brees was kind of mediocre his first few years with the Chargers. It wasn't until they drafted Rivers that something clicked with him and he went on a tear. The Chargers had a tough decision to make at that point and they chose unwisely.

Brees as a rookie > Kordell in year seven

Speaking of the Chargers, there were definite signs that Drew was going to be the Drew that we all know & love. It was just that his surroudning talent was abyssmal. It's not shocking that the Chargers were 1-15 a couple of times during that era... with the horrible Bethard drafts in the late 90s (trading away next year's R1 pick, to move up in R2 for an average WR). If you had put ANY quarterback on that roster, they would have struggled.

Conversely, if Brees had been on the 2001 Steelers team (which was #1 in defense, had Jerome in his prime, and some decent receivers in Plax & Ward), he would have done very well... maybe not as good as he is now, but better than Kordell did.

Now, in 2004, when the Bolts should have kept Drew, they drafted Rivers... and the salt got poured into the wound. Why do I say that? Because, not only did Drew become Drew... the Chargers COULD have had Brees, LT, and Fitzgerald... (as opposed to Rivers, Boston, & LT).