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Steelers5895
04-11-2013, 06:39 PM
Let me preface this as this NOT being a bash Lebeau post. He has a resume as a DC that is unmatched. But lets call a spade a spade, I feel he is going on reputation alone, NOT results.

1- I am so sick and tired of hearing that his scheme is so complicated that it takes 2-3 years to get to know it to be able to start. If that is the case, why is it so complicated for our players to figure out but NOT opposing offenses?

2- Since its so hard to figure out and you cant just bring someone in to start, we are forced to settle for a washed up Larry Foote or a Stevenson Sylvestor than sign a former #8 pick overall for $700k in Rolando McClain.

3- His defenses no longer shut the door on teams. Our defense has let below average offenses come back and win games.

4- His packages are non- effective. It has been years since Dick Lebeau has come up with a blitz package late in the game to make a big play or force a team to punt.

5- No turnovers

6- declining sacks

We can say its because our players are older and that is a big part of my arguement, We are forced to play our players on defense 1-2 years past productivity because how long it takes anyone to learn this defense.

Then, once they learn the defense they start on a contract year and become overpriced (Lewis) or feel obligated to overpay a long term contract (Timmons and Woodley).

I hope this is his last year and we bring in a fresh defensive scheme. Hopefully that is why we are patching it together with Foote, Sylvestor, etc

Vis
04-11-2013, 06:42 PM
This is why the defense was last in the league.... Oh, wait

Steelers5895
04-11-2013, 06:45 PM
This is why the defense was last in the league.... Oh, wait

they were first in yards, big deal. That stat is meaningless. The patriots were in the bottom 5 in defense last year but has a +31 turnover ratio.

What defense would you rather have?

harrison'samonster
04-11-2013, 06:46 PM
ours

Bayz101
04-11-2013, 06:46 PM
Our defense may not be as "intense" as it was in '08, but it wasn't the #1 defense last year for nothing.

Vis
04-11-2013, 06:47 PM
they were first in yards, big deal. That stat is meaningless. The patriots were in the bottom 5 in defense last year but has a +31 turnover ratio.

What defense would you rather have?

Never tell me what you want to subtract. Tell me what you would add. Who is available who will make our D better and why do you think he will?

harrison'samonster
04-11-2013, 06:48 PM
and if you could, at what point do you think Lebeau became less affective

pete74
04-11-2013, 06:56 PM
I liked our defense last year minus the pass rush. This year they seem to be pretty bad on paper but every year that happens they end up being awesome

Steelers5895
04-11-2013, 06:57 PM
Never tell me what you want to subtract. Tell me what you would add. Who is available who will make our D better and why do you think he will?

Brad Jones- ILB - Packers- 3 years in league, started for the first time last year when Bishop and Smith went down and in 8 or so starts had 56 tackes, 2 sacks ,a FF and 4 PD.

Doesnt sound like much but he is young, familiar with our scheme as Dom Capers is very similar and I am pretty confident he wasnt commanding a ton.

Could he be worse than Foote?

Rolando McClain. i rather take my lumps in 2013 with the potential upside of a #8 pick overall than going to the well one more time with Foote or signing a waste in Sylvestor, The minute he was available they should have brought him in and made an offer. Then cut Foote or Sylvestor. No one would sign them anyway so if you had to bring them back they would be there

Or better yet, DRAFT a player and insert them day 1 as the starter, give them a shot. A rookie with speed can make up for being out of position. What good is Foote being in the right spot while the faster TE, RB or WR blows right by him?

The_Joker
04-11-2013, 06:57 PM
:doh:

Vis
04-11-2013, 07:39 PM
Brad Jones- ILB - Packers- 3 years in league, started for the first time last year when Bishop and Smith went down and in 8 or so starts had 56 tackes, 2 sacks ,a FF and 4 PD.

Doesnt sound like much but he is young, familiar with our scheme as Dom Capers is very similar and I am pretty confident he wasnt commanding a ton.

Could he be worse than Foote?

Rolando McClain. i rather take my lumps in 2013 with the potential upside of a #8 pick overall than going to the well one more time with Foote or signing a waste in Sylvestor, The minute he was available they should have brought him in and made an offer. Then cut Foote or Sylvestor. No one would sign them anyway so if you had to bring them back they would be there

Or better yet, DRAFT a player and insert them day 1 as the starter, give them a shot. A rookie with speed can make up for being out of position. What good is Foote being in the right spot while the faster TE, RB or WR blows right by him?


ummm, I meant as the DC

NSMaster56
04-11-2013, 08:11 PM
Not adjusting for ST TD's, only five teams allowed fewer points than the Steelers.

Adjusting for ST TD's, only six teams allowed fewer points.

Not adjusting for ST TD's, 21 teams scored more points than the Steelers.

Adjusting for ST TD's, 20 teams scored more.

---

Getting rid of LeBeau would be like breaking your other leg to fix a limp.

Blacksburg Zach
04-11-2013, 08:21 PM
they were first in yards, big deal. That stat is meaningless. The patriots were in the bottom 5 in defense last year but has a +31 turnover ratio.

What defense would you rather have?

I'll take the defense that held the Super Bowl MVP to 54% completion percentage, 352 yards, 1 touchdown, and one interception over the course of two games over the defense that allowed a 65% completion percentage, 622 yards, 6 touchdowns, and 1 interception over the course of two games to said Super Bowl MVP.

Fire Haley
04-11-2013, 08:29 PM
Defense #1

meanwhile the offense was 22nd in the league and nobody is calling for Haley's head

Fire Haley!

Bane
04-11-2013, 08:53 PM
Man, us Steelers fans are spoiled brats. We have one 8-8 season, and we call for the head of the one coach who not only met, but exceeded his expectations given his personnel situation going into and during the year.

Steelers5895
04-11-2013, 09:26 PM
Man, us Steelers fans are spoiled brats. We have one 8-8 season, and we call for the head of the one coach who not only met, but exceeded his expectations given his personnel situation going into and during the year.

no, steeler fans fall in love with players and coaches and dont listen to reason. not to mention steeler fans are so stat driven.

I see a defense that gives up leads to lesser teams

I see a defense that is complicated and relies on old, underperforming players

I see a defense that cant get to the quarter back

I see a defense that can get turnovers

I see a defense that cant shorten the field for the offense by holding an opposing offense inside the 20

But we are #1 in yards allowed...we rock...we are tough...rabble rabble rabble!!!

harrison'samonster
04-11-2013, 09:33 PM
no, steeler fans fall in love with players and coaches and dont listen to reason. not to mention steeler fans are so stat driven.

I see a defense that gives up leads to lesser teams

I see a defense that is complicated and relies on old, underperforming players

I see a defense that cant get to the quarter back

I see a defense that can get turnovers

I see a defense that cant shorten the field for the offense by holding an opposing offense inside the 20

But we are #1 in yards allowed...we rock...we are tough...rabble rabble rabble!!!

seems to me your big problem has to do with field position. Not about the defense holding the other team to low scores.

FanSince72
04-11-2013, 09:34 PM
http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag37/JPsuff/lebeaudefense_zps81889a23.jpg

Bane
04-11-2013, 09:42 PM
no, steeler fans fall in love with players and coaches and dont listen to reason. not to mention steeler fans are so stat driven.

I see a defense that gives up leads to lesser teams

And an offense that offered little to no help in doing exactly that.

I see a defense that is complicated and relies on old, underperforming players

Who underperformed? Troy didn't when he actually played. Harrison wasn't too great during the beginning of the year, but that was due to injury, and he picked up the slack later. Ryan Clark and Ike Taylor were good, if not awesome, this year. Keisel wasn't the bulldozer we needed him to be, but so far, that's the only "old, under-performing" guy we had last year. Casey Hampton did what was expected, but wasn't his old self.

These were also the best guys on the team at their respective decisions. How can LeBeau be blamed for making the best of what he's given to put on the field? He can't hold their hands as they go for an interception.

I see a defense that cant get to the quarter back

Agreed when speaking about Woodley. Already explained Harrison.

I see a defense that can get turnovers

This could be caused by scheme as well players. Given that we're still running the same scheme with many of the same players, I'd say it's more often than not players just not making the plays.

I see a defense that cant shorten the field for the offense by holding an opposing offense inside the 20

I'd like to see what defense did on an extremely consistent basis.

But we are #1 in yards allowed...we rock...we are tough...rabble rabble rabble!!!

And passing defense. And second in rushing defense.

You also have to keep in mind, the NFL is moving into an era where defense is becoming less and less effective compared to past years. Even the top defense in the league (y'know, Dick LeBeau's) wasn't able to perform the way a top defense used to. I chalk this up to two things: The defense not getting takeaways (which, again, was largely a player problem), and the NFL becoming a high-yardage, high-scoring, passing league with numerous quarterbacks who are performing better than ever (Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Brees, etc.).

In other words: Stoppit. You're overreacting.

Fire Arians
04-11-2013, 10:31 PM
lebeau must go!

1. to mcdonalds
2. to applebees
3. to big joe's crab shack

lloydwoodson
04-11-2013, 11:00 PM
Defense #1

meanwhile the offense was 22nd in the league and nobody is calling for Haley's head

Fire Haley!

Haley inherited the 21st offense.

LeBeau had a top 5 defense with injuries to Harrison, Polamalu, Woodley, Taylor, Lewis and Spence. Not bad.

As I have said before- Tennessee loss TERRIBLE field position due to 3 and outs and turnovers.

Cowboys and Chargers half the secondary was injured and out. Blame that one on Victorian and DVD though they did the best they could against 2 of the better passing offenses.

Only game the defense really blew was against the Raiders.

Pretty amazing that a defense as ravaged by injuries, and as we all know has the terrible Foote and Hood on it, was able to do as well as it did.

bl4ckng0ld
04-11-2013, 11:11 PM
You say there are no results and then someone gives a stat showing we had one of the best defenses in the league last year and you say that one doesn't matter.

Mind boggling.

casteeler
04-11-2013, 11:38 PM
Defense #1

meanwhile the offense was 22nd in the league and nobody is calling for Haley's head

Fire Haley!

I don't care who's scheme you use on offense.

1. Injury plagued QB
2.injury plagued Offensive line
3. 3 sub-par RBs
4. WRs that were scared to death of catching a pass over the middle

AgentGold007
04-12-2013, 01:04 AM
I thought this was another one of those "Hines Ward sucks!" threads for a second.

Vis
04-12-2013, 04:11 AM
Still waiting to know who any of the LeBeau haters would like to hire and why the new guy would be better.

pczach
04-12-2013, 05:12 AM
lebeau must go!

1. to mcdonalds
2. to applebees
3. to big joe's crab shack

That's a tough one, but I think I have to go with Applebees. Fast food just doesn't cut it. I tried Joe's Crab Shack, it was expensive and it really sucked. So if LeBeau must go, make him go to Applebees. There, I said it!

VaDave
04-12-2013, 05:36 AM
I can't believe this thread exists,,,,,, oh waiter??

Yeah, this D sucks so bad almost half of the league is running it......

The fact is it is an effective system. No, it's not a dominating 85 Bears, or 76 Steelers type D, it's a D based on percentages, and averages.

Can't it be beat, sure. But it's going to take a very patient, very consistent offense, with great QB play to do it. Over the years there have been very few OC/QB combos that can do it on a week in week out, year after year, basis.

Millers the sh!t
04-12-2013, 06:17 AM
This first sentence is not directed at anybody it's just a general thought if you take offense to it then I'm sorry..... You're out of your stupid fucking mind. NOW, This next paragraph is directed at the OP. Pats defense is .definitely more productive than ours, but take a look at youth, injuries, and most importantly the offense. Patriots offense.is so high powered it cripples opposing offenses and makes them desperate and totally one sided. When it down 14 points at the end of the first quarter you have three more quarters of passing and uninspired hopeless players that already given up cause they know it's a lost battle. That's how turnovers are created. Let's take a look how we were negative 10 in the ratio and the pats were positive 23 or whatever. Even.though they had twenty three more opportunities to keep the opposing offense off the field we still let up less points yards etc. Etc. Our defense is less exciting to watch compared to 08' but it is still very effective and there is nobody that can do better than lebeau. Once Harrison for back into stride our defense started getting more turnovers late in the season. That's why it is a shame he is no longer with us. I believe Harrison was the heart and soul of our team and gave us the toughness and fear factor that is quickly going extinct in Pittsburgh. Bottom line is both NE and Pits defenses are good but you're total fool if you think lebeau must go. Trust me on this, Tue defense was the only reason why we got to 8 wins last year, and the defense is the only consistent and great thing on our team if lebeau go's i promise we will be in 4th place in the AFC North for a while.

WokeUpWithaWoodley
04-12-2013, 06:31 AM
This first sentence is not directed at anybody it's just a general thought if you take offense to it then I'm sorry..... You're out of your stupid fucking mind. NOW, This next paragraph is directed at the OP. Pats defense is .definitely more productive than ours, but take a look at youth, injuries, and most importantly the offense. Patriots offense.is so high powered it cripples opposing offenses and makes them desperate and totally one sided. When it down 14 points at the end of the first quarter you have three more quarters of passing and uninspired hopeless players that already given up cause they know it's a lost battle. That's how turnovers are created. Let's take a look how we were negative 10 in the ratio and the pats were positive 23 or whatever. Even.though they had twenty three more opportunities to keep the opposing offense off the field we still let up less points yards etc. Etc. Our defense is less exciting to watch compared to 08' but it is still very effective and there is nobody that can do better than lebeau. Once Harrison for back into stride our defense started getting more turnovers late in the season. That's why it is a shame he is no longer with us. I believe Harrison was the heart and soul of our team and gave us the toughness and fear factor that is quickly going extinct in Pittsburgh. Bottom line is both NE and Pits defenses are good but you're total fool if you think lebeau must go. Trust me on this, Tue defense was the only reason why we got to 8 wins last year, and the defense is the only consistent and great thing on our team if lebeau go's i promise we will be in 4th place in the AFC North for a while.

When's the last time they won a Super Bowl? Answer 2005.

There defense is not good and your out of your mind. If there defense was any good they would have more superbowls since 05. The fact is Brady won his superbowls will a star studded top 5 defensive team. Offensive gets you to the playoffs these days but defense still wins championships.

ebsteelers
04-12-2013, 08:05 AM
your best defense is a good offense..

and our offense was a little north of dog dump last year...

ebsteelers
04-12-2013, 08:06 AM
That's a tough one, but I think I have to go with Applebees. Fast food just doesn't cut it. I tried Joe's Crab Shack, it was expensive and it really sucked. So if LeBeau must go, make him go to Applebees. There, I said it!

half price apptizers are a game changer!!!

Millers the sh!t
04-12-2013, 08:12 AM
When's the last time they won a Super Bowl? Answer 2005.

There defense is not good and your out of your mind. If there defense was any good they would have more superbowls since 05. The fact is Brady won his superbowls will a star studded top 5 defensive team. Offensive gets you to the playoffs these days but defense still wins championships.

Not sure what your argument is against me, sounds like we both agree... Maybe read the rest of my post...???

Also go check out the past superbowl winners then go check out what rank their defense was. You'll find your theory of defenses winning championships is bunk. The hot team or the most well rounded team wins the championships. It's not all about defense otherwise cowher would have more than one ring and we'd have rings the past 3-4 years in a row.

IamTheSteelGod
04-12-2013, 08:26 AM
Lebeau is in charge for one more season then Butler is the man. Especially when our D will suck this season.

teegre
04-12-2013, 09:15 AM
I thought this was another one of those "Hines Ward sucks!" threads for a second.

I know, huh. The sad thing is: this is NOT tongue in cheek.

By the way... where is that thread...???

SteelersCanada
04-12-2013, 10:06 AM
I'm in the middle about this, honestly. I don't know if he necessarily needs to 'go', but I wouldn't mind if we brought in a more aggressive, more intense style of defense. If there's one thing that consistently bothers me about his defense it's the "tackle the catch" ideology.

If Lovie Smith is still looking for work next year, I wouldn't mind bringing him in. Dude is a defensive genius. This is assuming Dick hangs 'em up and lives out his golden years in a not-so-stressful environment.

Vis
04-12-2013, 10:14 AM
I'm in the middle about this, honestly. I don't know if he necessarily needs to 'go', but I wouldn't mind if we brought in a more aggressive, more intense style of defense. If there's one thing that consistently bothers me about his defense it's the "tackle the catch" ideology.

If Lovie Smith is still looking for work next year, I wouldn't mind bringing him in. Dude is a defensive genius. This is assuming Dick hangs 'em up and lives out his golden years in a not-so-stressful environment.


Could it be that we play the style we need to play to maximize the effectiveness of our personnel?

Lovie is only a genius because he's "the other guy". It's the backup QB syndrome. Read the "fire Lovie" threads in the Bears forums from the last few years

LayingTheWoodley56
04-12-2013, 11:08 AM
These "jettison Lebeau" threads are right up there with the "get rid of Ben" threads in terms of stupidity. The reason we've lacked in turnovers and sacks the past two years is because of our aging personnel, not the scheme. If anyone recalls, our defense completely shut down the Bengals in last year's do or die game; it was the offense that let us down.

Lebeau has earned the right to stay as long as he wants, and he is still turning out excellent defenses, maybe not as good as the ones he used to, but that has to do as much with the players he has than anything else. The defense was excellent in the second half of last season.

teegre
04-12-2013, 11:18 AM
These "jettison Lebeau" threads are right up there with the "get rid of Ben" threads in terms of stupidity. The reason we've lacked in turnovers and sacks the past two years is because of our aging personnel, not the scheme. If anyone recalls, our defense completely shut down the Bengals in last year's do or die game; it was the offense that let us down.

Lebeau has earned the right to stay as long as he wants, and he is still turning out excellent defenses, maybe not as good as the ones he used to, but that has to do as much with the players he has than anything else. The defense was excellent in the second half of last season.

You're totally wrong, man.

In that game, the defense gave up a field goal... a freaking FIELD GOAL!!! Allowing three points is totally unacceptable. I'm not sure where you were raised, but where I'm from, unless the defense pitches a shut out in EVERY single game, the DC should be fired.

[For those of you who look solely at the score, the Steelers offense threw a pick-six, and turned the ball over in FG... essentially giving the Bengals 10 of their 13 points.]

teegre
04-12-2013, 11:33 AM
Could it be that we play the style we need to play to maximize the effectiveness of our personnel?

Lovie is only a genius because he's "the other guy". It's the backup QB syndrome. Read the "fire Lovie" threads in the Bears forums from the last few years

It's also known as the "grass is greener..." effect. Or, to use a more modern euphemism, the "your girlfriend is better than mine" conundrum.

I have a buddy who's a Bears fan, and he's always talking about he wishes that he had Pittsburgh's coaching staff. Every team wants another team's coach... if only they realized, that what they have, is usually pretty darn good. Except for the Chargers... EVERYONE agrees that Norv was just utter shit.

Steelers5895
04-12-2013, 11:36 AM
Still waiting to know who any of the LeBeau haters would like to hire and why the new guy would be better.

Carnell Lake.

For the first time in over a decade our DBs covered well. That comes from coaching. Why not give a fresh new young coach a chance. That is Tomlins pedigre too. DB coach to DC

Kevin Greene- same as above. look how well his lbs are doing in GB

These guys both learned under Lebeau and Capers. So I can see them adopting some of their work but potentially uncomplicated it to where you can plug in a new player.

ebsteelers
04-12-2013, 11:38 AM
Could it be that we play the style we need to play to maximize the effectiveness of our personnel?

Lovie is only a genius because he's "the other guy". It's the backup QB syndrome. Read the "fire Lovie" threads in the Bears forums from the last few years

the grass is always greener on the other side. right right?

it has to be

Millers the sh!t
04-12-2013, 12:01 PM
You're totally wrong, man.

In that game, the defense gave up a field goal... a freaking FIELD GOAL!!! Allowing three points is totally unacceptable. I'm not sure where you were raised, but where I'm from, unless the defense pitches a shut out in EVERY single game, the DC should be fired.

[For those of you who look solely at the score, the Steelers offense threw a pick-six, and turned the ball over in FG... essentially giving the Bengals 10 of their 13 points.]

Thanks for the chuckle tegre.....

VaDave
04-12-2013, 12:24 PM
your best defense is a good offense..

and our offense was a little north of dog dump last year...

And that's being generous......

livingthrudying
04-12-2013, 01:42 PM
My only problem with Lebeau at this point is that the league has changed. You just do not have the luxury to groom players for your defense for 2 - 3 years anymore.

This is why Rob Ryan had a problem in Dallas (other than jerry being a idiot). His defense is similar to Lebeau's in that you have alot of assignments and alot to learn. Thats why they had so many penalties of 12 men on the field and other issues. The dude only had one offseason to teach the defense.

Case in point is that while having that complex defense is nice, its just not a luxury anymore. If we continue to sit draft picks for 3 years to "learn" and then they come out and shine we are going to lose them 80% of the time. Not to mention its a big part of why we have so many aging veterans that are killing our Cap.

Lebeau is still a defensive Genius but he is also stubborn and refusing to alter his ideology for how the current NFL system works in regards to keeping players.

fer522
04-12-2013, 04:52 PM
Defense wins championships damit!!! Wait we didn't even make the playoffs last season and hall of famer Tim Tebow kicked our arse two years ago:doh: what the fuck was I thinking when I posted this :banging:

Blacksburg Zach
04-12-2013, 05:31 PM
Defense wins championships damit!!! Wait we didn't even make the playoffs last season and hall of famer Tim Tebow kicked our arse two years ago:doh: what the fuck was I thinking when I posted this :banging:

Because missing the playoffs was totally the defense's fault. :doh: Tim Tebow and the Broncos' offense moved the ball against a defense that had all its starters at the defensive line injured, that had the incomparable Ryan Mundy at safety, an injured LaMarr Woodley, and Ike Taylor had the worst game of his career. That doesn't even take into account the fact that Ben was far from 100%. Yet it took all that for the Broncos to win in overtime.

harrison'samonster
04-12-2013, 05:32 PM
Because missing the playoffs was totally the defense's fault. :doh: Tim Tebow and the Broncos' offense moved the ball against a defense that had all its starters at the defensive line injured, that had the incomparable Ryan Mundy at safety, an injured LaMarr Woodley, and Ike Taylor had the worst game of his career. That doesn't even take into account the fact that Ben was far from 100%. Yet it took all that for the Broncos to win in overtime.

not to mention, Tebow played the best game of his NFL career. His long throws were right on the money

fer522
04-12-2013, 06:00 PM
Because missing the playoffs was totally the defense's fault. :doh: Tim Tebow and the Broncos' offense moved the ball against a defense that had all its starters at the defensive line injured, that had the incomparable Ryan Mundy at safety, an injured LaMarr Woodley, and Ike Taylor had the worst game of his career. That doesn't even take into account the fact that Ben was far from 100%. Yet it took all that for the Broncos to win in overtime.



So we're the only team in the league with injured players? Tired of that tune:noidea:

Blacksburg Zach
04-12-2013, 06:17 PM
So we're the only team in the league with injured players? Tired of that tune:noidea:

No, but when injuries knock out the entire starting defensive line, the number one running back, part of the already shaky offensive line, make the team's co-sack leader ineffective, make the franchise quarterback ineffective, and the high altitude eliminates the team's leading tackler because of sickle cell, I'd say those are pretty significant blows. Sure, all teams have injured players, but some have it far worse than others, and I think it would be fair to say the Steelers were hit by the injury bug pretty damn hard for the past couple of seasons compared to many other teams in the National Football League.

harrison'samonster
04-12-2013, 06:19 PM
No, but when injuries knock out the entire starting defensive line, the number one running back, part of the already shaky offensive line, make the team's co-sack leader ineffective, make the franchise quarterback ineffective, and the high altitude eliminates the team's leading tackler because of sickle cell, I'd say those are pretty significant blows. Sure, all teams have injured players, but some have it far worse than others, and I think it would be fair to say the Steelers were hit by the injury bug pretty damn hard for the past couple of seasons compared to many other teams in the National Football League.

don't forget we're talking playoffs too. not many teams are succesful in the playoffs when their injuries are that bad. In the regular season a team can usually fight through injuries.

pete74
04-12-2013, 06:29 PM
I do agree on the injury thing. I'm so tired of people blaming our loss on injuries especially when it's Ben. Rothlisbetger is hurt every year. Green Bay won the super bowl when they had more injuries then just about any team. Injuries happen. All that matters is wins and losses not why and how

Steelers5895
04-12-2013, 06:43 PM
You say there are no results and then someone gives a stat showing we had one of the best defenses in the league last year and you say that one doesn't matter.

Mind boggling.

I am saying being # 1 in yards is deceiving. Ok so they hold a team at bay all game but let them come back and win in the end is your response " great game! We held the team to not a lot if yards!"

Or is the point to keep the opposing team from scoring more?

harrison'samonster
04-12-2013, 07:04 PM
I am saying being # 1 in yards is deceiving. Ok so they hold a team at bay all game but let them come back and win in the end is your response " great game! We held the team to not a lot if yards!"

Or is the point to keep the opposing team from scoring more?

got to keep them from scoring more.
:chuckle: "Hello? You play to win the game!"

but we also had one of the top scoring D's in the league. Like I said before, our problem isn't yardage, or giving up scores, it's playing field position. We were pretty bad at winning field position battles. and turnovers would help.

NSMaster56
04-12-2013, 07:59 PM
To re-emphasize what LloydWoodson and Teegree have said:

The 2012 Steelers...

Threw a game-icing pick-six vs. DEN
Allowed a blocked punt and threw an INT in opposing territory vs. TEN
Allowed a PR TD vs. BAL
Had SEVEN turnovers vs. CLE
Had numerous untimely fumbles vs. BAL, DAL and others
Threw a game-icing INT vs. DAL
Threw a pick-six vs. CIN

...and those are just the offensive/ST miscues that are memorable. Upon analysis surely more could be found.

So, even after ALL THAT, the D allowed the fifth or sixth FEWEST points (depending on adjustments) in the NFL.

The defense is fine. STFU.

harrison'samonster
04-12-2013, 08:01 PM
not to mention about the whole Chargers game was played on our side of the field.

Steelers5895
04-12-2013, 08:19 PM
To re-emphasize what LloydWoodson and Teegree have said:

The 2012 Steelers...

Threw a game-icing pick-six vs. DEN
Allowed a blocked punt and threw an INT in opposing territory vs. TEN
Allowed a PR TD vs. BAL
Had SEVEN turnovers vs. CLE
Had numerous untimely fumbles vs. BAL, DAL and others
Threw a game-icing INT vs. DAL
Threw a pick-six vs. CIN

...and those are just the offensive/ST miscues that are memorable. Upon analysis surely more could be found.

So, even after ALL THAT, the D allowed the fifth or sixth FEWEST points (depending on adjustments) in the NFL.

The defense is fine. STFU.

The defense already gave up the lead in the denver game. Ben wasnt able to bail out the defense

No mention of the Oakland game?

So basically our offense cant make any mistakes because our defense is not good enough to hold any offense, to include oakland and tennessee

thank you for helping me with my point.

Riddle_Of_Steel
04-12-2013, 08:58 PM
The defense already gave up the lead in the denver game. Ben wasnt able to bail out the defense

No mention of the Oakland game?

So basically our offense cant make any mistakes because our defense is not good enough to hold any offense, to include oakland and tennessee

thank you for helping me with my point.

I think you make some good points here. Unfortunately, you are not allowed to talk bad about DL in Steelers country, as I am sure you are finding out.

I think our defense needs some updating-- they sure had their share of the blame in both of the last two disappointing seasons. Folks can't blame the offense when Tim freaking Tebow wings three huge TD passes right over their heads. Injuries are no excuse-- the Ravens were as battered as the Steelers this year, yet they went all the way.

TO say DL "needs to go" though-- is hyperbole that I am sure even you don't believe. he shouldn't be untouchable, but he sure can stay as long as he wants...

NSMaster56
04-12-2013, 08:58 PM
The defense already gave up the lead in the denver game. Ben wasnt able to bail out the defense

No mention of the Oakland game?

So basically our offense cant make any mistakes because our defense is not good enough to hold any offense, to include oakland and tennessee

thank you for helping me with my point.

No.

Basically, BECAUSE the offense made so many mistakes, while the defense is good it cannot be expected to be perfect enough to win EVERY game.

Thank you for missing the point.

EDIT: And to emphasize the quote in bold (again), THE DEFENSE WAS FIFTH/SIXTH BEST IN THE LEAGUE AT HOLDING OPPOSING OFFENSES.

Not adjusting for Turnover/ST TD's, the D allowed roughly 19.625 PPG... how is it the D's fault that the O can't score 20 a game???

fer522
04-12-2013, 09:13 PM
I do agree on the injury thing. I'm so tired of people blaming our loss on injuries especially when it's Ben. Rothlisbetger is hurt every year. Green Bay won the super bowl when they had more injuries then just about any team. Injuries happen. All that matters is wins and losses not why and how


THANK YOU!!! :thumbsup:

SteelersCanada
04-12-2013, 09:50 PM
The defense already gave up the lead in the denver game. Ben wasnt able to bail out the defense

No mention of the Oakland game?

So basically our offense cant make any mistakes because our defense is not good enough to hold any offense, to include oakland and tennessee

thank you for helping me with my point.

Stop.

Our offense can't make any mistakes? I'm sorry, did you forget the Cleveland game in which the offense gave the ball over 8 fucking times? We lost that game by 6 points. 6. As in, a single Touchdown. Weeden passed for 158 and Richardson ran for 85 yards on 29 attempts.

The Oakland game was bad on both sides of the ball. Three fumbles, all costly, and gave them the ball either close to or on our side of the field. I don't care what team it is, turning the ball over that many times is unacceptable.

The second half of the season is when our defense got hot. Timmons was a force to be reckoned with and our line was finally coming to form. Roethlisberger went down and that's what tanked our season, not LeBeau's playcalling or our defense playing poorly. Fuck, we beat the Ravens in Baltimore with Charlie Batch but that game doesn't get mentioned? Are you kidding me?

There are legitimate concerns with his defensive ideology but this isn't it.

harrison'samonster
04-12-2013, 09:54 PM
Stop.

Our offense can't make any mistakes? I'm sorry, did you forget the Cleveland game in which the offense gave the ball over 8 fucking times? We lost that game by 6 points. 6. As in, a single Touchdown. Weeden passed for 158 and Richardson ran for 85 yards on 29 attempts.

The Oakland game was bad on both sides of the ball. Three fumbles, all costly, and gave them the ball either close to or on our side of the field. I don't care what team it is, turning the ball over that many times is unacceptable.

The second half of the season is when our defense got hot. Timmons was a force to be reckoned with and our line was finally coming to form. Roethlisberger went down and that's what tanked our season, not LeBeau's playcalling or our defense playing poorly. Fuck, we beat the Ravens in Baltimore with Charlie Batch but that game doesn't get mentioned? Are you kidding me?

There are legitimate concerns with his defensive ideology but this isn't it.

couldn't have said it better myself. If Ben doesn't get injured nobody would be talking about Lebeau.

Steelers5895
04-13-2013, 08:53 AM
Its time for a change. The defense is too complicated and its costing us every year with cap issues. we have to pay our defensive players a ton because we need to lock up players who finally understand their defense. that includes keeping players way too long.

so, OL suffers, depth suffers, special teams suffers.

I dont expect a shut down defense in this era of the NFL but 3 and outs inside the 20 would be nice. a turnover time to time would be nice. A key sack would be nice. Agressive play would be nice.

harrison'samonster
04-13-2013, 08:56 AM
Its time for a change. The defense is too complicated and its costing us every year with cap issues. we have to pay our defensive players a ton because we need to lock up players who finally understand their defense. that includes keeping players way too long.

so, OL suffers, depth suffers, special teams suffers.

I dont expect a shut down defense in this era of the NFL but 3 and outs inside the 20 would be nice. a turnover time to time would be nice. A key sack would be nice. Agressive play would be nice.

I'd settle for keeping the other team's score low, and that's what we have.

steelerchad
04-13-2013, 09:20 AM
The biggest problem with this defense the last 2 years has been the inability to force turnovers. Pinning down the reason for the lack of them is the real chore. There are likely a variety of reasons. But our D went from a turnover machine, to the worst D in the league at forcing them in the last 2 seasons.
The reasons as I see them.

1. Lack of pressure- The decline and exit of Aaron Smith is big. The overall decline of the front 3 being able to hold up blockers and keep the LB's free.
2. No healthy Troy- He's been injured and not on the field. When he is on the field, he's not been the same guy. He's a playmaker when healthy and not so much when hurt.
3. Harrison's injury- This guy was a great pass rusher, but he also crushed ball carriers and was a league leader in forced fumbles. Age and injury caught up to him.
4. Goodell- I can't help but think that the "new rules" have slowed us down a step. If you have any hesitation due to thinking about a penalty or fine, you'll be a step slow or late. When's the last time you saw Ryan Clark light someone up? Those kind of hits cause fumbles and intimidate ball carriers and receivers into mistakes.

SteelersCanada
04-13-2013, 09:24 AM
Its time for a change. The defense is too complicated and its costing us every year with cap issues. we have to pay our defensive players a ton because we need to lock up players who finally understand their defense. that includes keeping players way too long.

so, OL suffers, depth suffers, special teams suffers.

I dont expect a shut down defense in this era of the NFL but 3 and outs inside the 20 would be nice. a turnover time to time would be nice. A key sack would be nice. Agressive play would be nice.

Those two things aren't connected, but that's not my main gripe with this.

OL suffers? 4 of our 5 OLinemen are first or second round picks. That's far from suffering.

ST suffers? AB got 1000 yards receiving and returning two years ago.

We had a down year with injuries and guys underperforming.

Steelers5895
04-13-2013, 09:38 AM
Those two things aren't connected, but that's not my main gripe with this.

OL suffers? 4 of our 5 OLinemen are first or second round picks. That's far from suffering.

ST suffers? AB got 1000 yards receiving and returning two years ago.

We had a down year with injuries and guys underperforming.

we have no depth on the OL. our special teams coverage is terrible constant penalties and allowing of big returns. why? no depth...why? huge contracts all over the defense and meanwhile we lose weapons for Ben or dont bring any in. Instead of signing a proven OL upgrade we put it in the hands of youth...to protect our franchise qb.

BUT, we overpay our defensive players as they age because we cant get young players to figure out the offense.

they are related. we cant mix in young inexpensive players on defense and keep balance. this is not just this year, this has been over the course of 4 seasons.

Vis
04-13-2013, 09:41 AM
Lets simplify. Sure the opposing offense will know everything we will do but the kids will get PT and that's what's important.

NSMaster56
04-13-2013, 09:59 AM
There are likely a variety of reasons. But our D went from a turnover machine, to the worst D in the league at forcing them in the last 2 seasons.
The reasons as I see them.

1. Lack of pressure- The decline and exit of Aaron Smith is big. The overall decline of the front 3 being able to hold up blockers and keep the LB's free.
2. No healthy Troy- He's been injured and not on the field. When he is on the field, he's not been the same guy. He's a playmaker when healthy and not so much when hurt.

More #1 than #2 (and #'s 3 and 4 might be valid, but less impactful), but still the two biggest reasons.

Pass rush/pressure is created/started from the trenches. The Steelers are one of few teams that primarily use LB's to cause pressure and it obviously doesn't work consistently.

The Giants, Texans, Seahawks, 49ers... the better pash rush teams have guys in their front 3/4 who demand attention from one, two or more OL/blockers, opening up gaps for LB's to create pressure and wreak havoc (on top of what their DL is already doing).

Without Smith, a dominant Big Snack and other viable DL's, the LB's, as great as they can be, can't do their thing.

The injury to Debo, relying on aging vets like Farrior/Foote and the deterioration of Woodley haven't helped, but those things would have been less impactful if the Steelers had a DL worth a damn.

Vis
04-13-2013, 10:18 AM
And yet we luckily had a DC who could overcome those issues to field the #1 D. No new hire could have created a new stud player out of spare parts. They could only have done what LeBeau did but not as well.

Steelers5895
04-13-2013, 10:23 AM
And yet we luckily had a DC who could overcome those issues to field the #1 D. No new hire could have created a new stud player out of spare parts. They could only have done what LeBeau did but not as well.

# 1 at not getting sacks and turnovers and in age

Vis
04-13-2013, 10:24 AM
# 1 at not getting sacks and turnovers and in age

Who would have done better with the same team and why? You seem to want change just for change. Please never buy the team.

SteelersCanada
04-13-2013, 10:27 AM
we have no depth on the OL. our special teams coverage is terrible constant penalties and allowing of big returns. why? no depth...why? huge contracts all over the defense and meanwhile we lose weapons for Ben or dont bring any in. Instead of signing a proven OL upgrade we put it in the hands of youth...to protect our franchise qb.

BUT, we overpay our defensive players as they age because we cant get young players to figure out the offense.

they are related. we cant mix in young inexpensive players on defense and keep balance. this is not just this year, this has been over the course of 4 seasons.

We never sign free agents. Why would we start now?

We're lacking depth on the offensive line because we haven't even had the draft yet. You're panicking 12 days before the draft about our roster. You have to understand why this is silly.

You're right - we're overpaying some guys on our defense. The fact is though, when they're on and playing, they're top 5 at their position. I wouldn't mind seeing a younger guy come in and start at Safety, but a year behind Troy and Ryan would do great things for whoever we have waiting in the wings.

We lost weapons for Ben? Who? Dropsies and Fumbles-a-lot?

So you're griping about a lack of youth but turning around and complaining at the youth we have on our offensive line? What?

Give Vaccaro and someone like TJ McDonald a year behind Troy and Clark and they'll be ready. I don't know what you mean by saying "we can't mix in young and inexpensive players" when you're asking for youth to play which will be young and inexpensive.

You want younger guys to play but you want us to get them in free agency? We don't do that. That's not how we do things. This shouldn't surprise you.

NSMaster56
04-13-2013, 11:03 AM
# 1 at not getting sacks and turnovers and in age

Who cares?

What # defense were the CHAMPION Ravens last year?

You're finding nits to pick. The D, while as flawed as any other, has been fine.

Until the D starts allowing 21 or more points a game and falls into the bottom half of PA (something that HAS NOT happened under LeBeau) there's nothing to worry about.

Steelers5895
04-13-2013, 03:32 PM
We never sign free agents. Why would we start now?

We're lacking depth on the offensive line because we haven't even had the draft yet. You're panicking 12 days before the draft about our roster. You have to understand why this is silly.

You're right - we're overpaying some guys on our defense. The fact is though, when they're on and playing, they're top 5 at their position. I wouldn't mind seeing a younger guy come in and start at Safety, but a year behind Troy and Ryan would do great things for whoever we have waiting in the wings.

We lost weapons for Ben? Who? Dropsies and Fumbles-a-lot?

So you're griping about a lack of youth but turning around and complaining at the youth we have on our offensive line? What?

Give Vaccaro and someone like TJ McDonald a year behind Troy and Clark and they'll be ready. I don't know what you mean by saying "we can't mix in young and inexpensive players" when you're asking for youth to play which will be young and inexpensive.

You want younger guys to play but you want us to get them in free agency? We don't do that. That's not how we do things. This shouldn't surprise you.


We sign free free agents just not superstars. And when I mention no depth I am not talking right this second I am talking over the last 3-4 years

Top 5 at their position? I don't see Woodley or Timmons on the top 5. I don't see Ike Taylor as a top 5 corner. Harrison yes and Troy yes but they signed both who have had injury history.

This has been 3 years in the making. #1 in yards which you all hold your hat on is a useless stat.

Ever think our offense is struggling because the long fields they get stuck with because our defense can't get sacks, turnovers or 3 and outs?

Yeah let's glaze over that

harrison'samonster
04-13-2013, 03:36 PM
Ever think our offense is struggling because the long fields they get stuck with because our defense can't get sacks, turnovers or 3 and outs?

Yeah let's glaze over that

no, because this past year they didn't do any better when they had a short field.


EDIT: by my numbers, we only scored on 47.6% of drives that started in our opponents territory. Compare that to our opponents scoring on 72% of drives starting in our territory. Now before you start saying this proves your point that our defense gives up to many points, an offense should be expected to at least score a FG when given the ball on the opponents side of the field.

SteelersCanada
04-13-2013, 03:42 PM
Top 5 at their position? I don't see Woodley or Timmons on the top 5...

I stopped reading after this. Timmons isn't top 5? That's a joke.

harrison'samonster
04-13-2013, 03:48 PM
I stopped reading after this. Timmons isn't top 5? That's a joke.

Timmons is definitely underrated

SteelersCanada
04-13-2013, 04:22 PM
Timmons is definitely underrated

The only ILB I'd take over him right now is Willis. Can you imagine what kind of statistics and what kind of monster he'd be if he had a Navorro Bowman playing next to him? Guys like Arthur Brown or Ogletree would let him disrupt the line which is what he was drafted for but has been unable to do to this point. Having to compensate for Foote and Farior has really made Timmons play two positions at once which I think is unfair.

NSMaster56
04-13-2013, 04:52 PM
Ever think our offense is struggling because the long fields they get stuck with because our defense can't get sacks, turnovers or 3 and outs?

You're correct that the Steelers could stand to cause more sacks, TO's and three/outs, but the answer to your question is still NO.

The primary purpose of a defense is to stop the opposition from scoring and the Steelers accomplish that just fine. Creating turnovers and controlling field position are a bonus for most D's.

Conversely, regardless of field position, the primary purpose of an offense is to [drive down the field and] score. The Steelers accomplish that at an average at best clip and it's (obviously) not good enough.

Provided the O stays healthy, commits to learning and then gathers as much experience in Haley's system as possible, that should be the 'boost' the Steelers need.

A more efficient O would help keep the D on the sidelines longer and therefore fresher and should force a dramatic enough swing in overall performance to earn the Steelers a few more W's.

All in theory, of course.

Millers the sh!t
04-13-2013, 10:10 PM
I just want to say again his thread really sucks man.