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43Hitman
05-31-2013, 09:30 AM
I've been instructed by the ESPN gendarmes not to reveal who made our Greatest Coaches in NFL History poll. But I know who I voted for, and I know who the group voted for, and one of us must've voted on nitrous oxide, because we're a Carnival cruise ship apart on some picks.
20. Dan Reeves -- Gruff and grouchy, the man went to four Super Bowls, three with John Elway (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/6470/john-elway) and one against him. That says something, doesn't it? And in that one, he woke up on game day to find out his best defensive player had been busted by an undercover hooker.
19. Ray Flaherty -- Don't start with me. Just because he coached before Netflix doesn't mean he wasn't great. Invented the screen pass. Invented situational substitution. Won two NFL titles and a bunch of division titles in the All-America Football Conference (AAFC), which was a very big deal despite TMZ never having heard of it.

GREATEST COACHES IN NFL HISTORY

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2013/0507/nfl_tripanel_jv_203.jpg This series is a collaborative effort between ESPN TV, ESPN.com, ESPN Digital Video, ESPN The Magazine,
ESPN Radio and ESPN Stats & Info.
Counting down to the 100th anniversary of Vince Lombardi's birth on June 11, we'll reveal the top 20 coaches of all time, as selected by a blue-ribbon panel of ESPN analysts and writers. ESPN television will profile the countdown in a four-episode series beginning June 4.
We'll also trace the league's evolution with eight extensive features on its most significant coaching trees.
We'll profile 175 coaches in more than 50,000 words, a colossal project befitting the greatest coaches in NFL history.


18. Tom Coughlin -- Won two Super Bowls with The Wrong Manning.
17. Marv Levy -- Made four straight Super Bowls. You say he never won The Big One. I say he won two Grey Cups. History buff. Once said, "This is not a must-win. World War II was a must-win."
16. Hank Stram -- Easily the most persnickety man on this list. Always wore a jacket and tie and, often, a red vest underneath. Saw him do it on a 100-degree Sunday. As thorough and obsessed a coach as has ever lived. He never had an offensive coordinator, defensive coordinator or special teams coach with the Chiefs. Never needed 'em.
15. George Allen -- Would've been a great general. He'd find a way to beat you if all he had was two right tackles and a spatula. Never had a losing season. Won 71 percent of the time. OK, so it never happened for him in the playoffs. Sue.
14. Jimmy Johnson -- Still can't believe he's not in the Hall of Fame. Do you think Cowboys fans would take him back right now? Made all those egos work, the largest of which was his.
13. Sid Gillman -- You like the NFL, right? Well, the NFL wouldn't be the NFL without Sid Gillman, who did for football what color did for television. He was the first to throw it deep and stretch the field. He was the first to study film religiously. (When he was with the Chargers, he did it in his garage.) The former movie usher turned the NFL into a show.
12. Curly Lambeau -- Six NFL titles. First to use the forward pass as his main weapon. Won two out of every three games with the Packers. Oddity: Lambeau never went to Lambeau Field. When he was alive, it was called New City Stadium. Cue the music. Cue John Facenda. The frozen TUN-dra of New City Stadium. Not the same.
11. Bud Grant -- The Norse God. He looked like the guy Hollywood hires to play a football coach. Always wore the expression of an Easter Island statue, even as Gary Cuozzo or Joe Kapp was fumbling away another Super Bowl. Maybe if he could've relaxed the rules a little on his players, like Chuck Noll, he would've won one of those four Super Bowls. Wasn't going to happen.
10. John Madden -- No matter where you visited Madden, whether it was at his apartment in The Dakota in New York City, or his house in Carmel, you'd find him in a big easy chair in front of about five TVs. The man's whole life has been football -- playing it, coaching it, and describing it. A name known to both grandpa and grandson. He's the very face of this game and what a grand face it is.
9. Chuck Noll -- Four Super Bowl wins in six years. Then why isn't he higher, you ask? Because he did it with only one quarterback, Terry Bradshaw, and one defense, the Steel Curtain. The Rooneys go on winning long after Noll. And once Bradshaw left? Noll went 62-67.
8. Bill Walsh -- This will torque people off, having Walsh this low, but I answer with two words: Joe Montana (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/6445/joe-montana). He won all three of his Super Bowls with Joe Montana. Still, a very smart guy. One of the smartest things he did? Quit just before Montana did.
7. Don Shula -- Best thing ever said about Shula was by Bum Phillips: "He's awfully smart. He can take his'n and beat your'n. Or he can take your'n and beat his'n." Nobody won more games than Shula. Nobody coached in more Super Bowls (six). I have him lower than most people because well, I just felt OK, maybe I messed this up.
6. Tom Landry -- The Fedora had 20 straight winning seasons, made five Super Bowls, and was my mom's favorite coach because he looked so nice on the sideline, unlike certain coaches in cut-off, bottom-of-the-hamper sweatshirts you might find at your finer Goodwill stores.
[+] Enlargehttp://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/1112/chi_g_lombardi_halas_b1_200.jpg (http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/1112/chi_g_lombardi_halas_b1_400.jpg)Vernon Biever/Getty ImagesThe Super Bowl trophy is named after Vince Lombardi, but there wouldn't have been an NFL without George Halas.


5. George Halas -- Greatest car salesman in history. There's no NFL without Halas. Played, owned, founded, coached, and nurtured this league. But did you know he was the MVP of the Rose Bowl?
4. Bill Belichick -- A mad scientist. Stores his blood in the freezer at night. Would've made a terrific despot way back when. The man already has been to five Super Bowls and he's only 61. The way he's going, he could make it to seven, a record. You say, "What about your one-quarterback rule NOW?" And I say, "How do you know Tom Brady (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/2330/tom-brady) would be Tom Brady anywhere else? He wasn't Tom Brady in college, was he?"
3. Paul Brown -- I have him ahead of Walsh because without Brown, there would be no Walsh. Or West Coast offense, which was born of Brown's ideas. Brown didn't just win three NFL titles, he won four AAFC titles with Cleveland for an all-time high of seven championships. You know anybody else with an NFL team named after him?

2. Joe Gibbs -- OK, here's where you start throwing shoes. But it goes back to quarterbacks. Nobody has ever come close to doing what Gibbs did, which is win three Super Bowls with three different quarterbacks, none of whom are in the Hall of Fame. That's like crossing the Pacific in a Little Mermaid floatie.
1. Vince Lombardi -- OK, the chalk pick, but do you think Bart Starr would be in the Hall of Fame without him? How about Jim Ringo or Herb Adderly? The talent didn't make Lombardi. Lombardi made the talent. This former Latin teacher got a job nobody wanted -- coaching the 1-10-1 Packers -- and proceeded to win 74 percent of his games after that. Seventy-four percent!
Now let me tell you whom I didn't vote for.
I didn't put Bill Parcells in the top 20. Lot of people are going to file a grievance over that. Fine coach, fun guy, but his regular-season coaching record was only .570, which ranks below most of the coaches in my top 20. Plus, Parcells' stature was blown up because he did his best work in New York, which is the scuba mask of the world. Everything you do in New York looks one-third bigger than it really is.
I stiffed Mike Shanahan, too. Like Parcells, Shanahan is a wizard, but both his Super Bowls came with one quarterback, Elway. He has won one playoff game in the 13 years since. Needs to prove it.
Lastly, I didn't vote for Tony Dungy. People act as if he won two Super Bowls: the one with Indy and the one Tampa Bay won the year after he was fired. Kim Kardashian just got pregnant with Kanye West. Does Kris Humphries get credit for that? And yes, he won a Super Bowl with Peyton Manning (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/1428/peyton-manning), but your muffler guy could win one with Manning in those years. Wonderful man, though.
Anyway, if you have any beefs, run them all through Adam Schefter.


http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/page/greatestcoachreilly/my-top-20-nfl-coaches


What a joke! Chuck Noll 9th, give me a freaking break. The reasoning that they use is completely asinine.

Vis
05-31-2013, 09:42 AM
Horse Pucky.

No one else got knocked for the same reason he knocked Noll. Landry, Belicheat, theyy both rode 1 QB. And who says Bradshaw would have been Bradshaw under any other coach.

43Hitman
06-01-2013, 08:52 AM
You say, "What about your one-quarterback rule NOW?" And I say, "How do you know Tom Brady would be Tom Brady anywhere else? He wasn't Tom Brady in college, was he?"

Holy shit the mental gymnastics that it takes to rationalize this statement is incredible. Doesn't this guy know that it took the starter Phil Robertson deciding not to play football anymore for Terry to even have a shot of starting at Louisiana Tech? How hard is it for these ass hat journalists to do a little research before writing their stories? :banging:

lloydwoodson
06-02-2013, 03:09 AM
Belichick was 41-57 without Brady in 2008 (with 11-5 record with Cassel he is still well below .500).

Belichick is a defensive coach.

Belichick has had a top 10 defense 4 times in 13 seasons with New England.

Belichick had a top 10 defense 1 time in 5 seasons with Cleveland.

I would vote for Belichick as most overrated coach of all time.

It is a stupid list if it has Belichick above Walsh. Walsh inherited a 2-14 team and created a dynasty with a 3rd round quarterback and won 3 superbowls. Walsh popularized the WCO.

Belichick inherited a .500 team that had made the playoffs 3 of the last 4 years and created a dynasty with a 6th round quarterback and won 3 superbowls. Belichick used the WCO Walsh popularized.

Bill Parcells, Tom Flores, Mike Shanahan and George Seifert all won the superbowl more than once and didn't make the list. Tom Flores was the first minority head coach to win a superbowl and he won two- still didn't make the list.

Congrats to Paul Brown for making #3. It must have been really hard to win games with a top 5 all-time quarterback in Otto Graham and then a top 5 all-time player in Jim Brown. How did he do it?!?!?!?!

George Allen never won a superbowl and was 2-7 in the playoffs yet makes the list.

Bud Grant, Marv Levy and Sid Gillman never won a superbowl either and still made the list.

4 coaches who won multiple superbowls didn't make the list.

4 coaches who never won a superbowl made the list.

The head coach who won the most superbowls was 9th best.

This is one of the worst lists I have seen. Ever.

lloydwoodson
06-02-2013, 03:37 AM
Don Shula had the most wins in the regular season, the second most wins in the postseason, and the only undefeated season for an NFL team and is 7th. He is one of only two coaches to have more than 300 wins (the other being George Halas).

GMU Steeler
06-02-2013, 09:29 AM
Belichick the way he's going? Uh Rick he hasn't won in nearly a decade now. Anyhow Noll only being 9 a joke especially considering that he's a large part of the reason why the Steelers have become the most successful team post merger in the NFL. His whole logic was Gibbs is that Gibbs won with three QBs. Gibbs was a great coach but the Redskins had until last year arguably been in ruins since he retired. What a crappy list. I didn't mind Rick Reilly's columns when he wrote for SI but this is pretty bad.

NSMaster56
06-02-2013, 10:07 AM
I didn't mind Rick Reilly's columns when he wrote for SI but this is pretty bad.

This was a Rick Reilly piece?

Why wasn't that put in the subject line so we all knew it was crap?

43Hitman
06-02-2013, 10:42 AM
This was a Rick Reilly piece?

Why wasn't that put in the subject line so we all knew it was crap?

whoops a bit of an oversight on my part. :doh:

GMU Steeler
06-02-2013, 11:50 AM
whoops a bit of an oversight on my part. :doh:

That's okay man. But thanks for sharing it anyhow. I read it the other day and was just amazed that he could put a coach who won 4 SBs at 9. And the silly thing is he makes it out like the 4 SBs were just due to Terry B. Love Bradshaw but he got to in large part where he got because of the defense that Noll built.

sluggermatt15
06-02-2013, 01:06 PM
Belichick the way he's going? Uh Rick he hasn't won in nearly a decade now. Anyhow Noll only being 9 a joke especially considering that he's a large part of the reason why the Steelers have become the most successful team post merger in the NFL. His whole logic was Gibbs is that Gibbs won with three QBs. Gibbs was a great coach but the Redskins had until last year arguably been in ruins since he retired. What a crappy list. I didn't mind Rick Reilly's columns when he wrote for SI but this is pretty bad.

Belichick created a dynasty in an era where dynasties are not supposed to exist. How can you say he is NOT one of the greatest coaches of all-time? He's not even done coaching yet!

vasteeler
06-02-2013, 01:12 PM
Belichick created a dynasty in an era where dynasties are not supposed to exist. How can you say he is NOT one of the greatest coaches of all-time? He's not even done coaching yet!


video tape:noidea:

GMU Steeler
06-04-2013, 10:41 AM
video tape:noidea:

Crap I didn't even say he wasn't. I just rank Noll higher. I don't think many people realize that the Steelers were far from the team they are now when he took over. The Patriots were a few years removed from a SB appearance and a couple playoff appearances when Belichick took over. I also think Reilly applies double standards- knocking Noll for not doing anything after Bradshaw retired but ignoring Belichick's struggles in the playoffs after the elephant in the room that is Spygate came to light. And I am sorry but you can't ignore that. Sorry ranting I know since we're on the same page here.

Vis
06-04-2013, 12:27 PM
Holy shit the mental gymnastics that it takes to rationalize this statement is incredible. Doesn't this guy know that it took the starter Phil Robertson deciding not to play football anymore for Terry to even have a shot of starting at Louisiana Tech? How hard is it for these ass hat journalists to do a little research before writing their stories? :banging:

Of course Brady was a 6th round pick and Bradshaw was the first pick in the '70 draft

ebsteelers
06-04-2013, 01:53 PM
well according to espn gibbs is 9..

riley is jabroni..


1) noll
2) the chin
3) tomlin
4) bud parker

Atlanta Dan
06-04-2013, 02:15 PM
With Tom Landry at #8 the question is where Chuck Noll will fit in the remaining top 7

The countdown so far

No. 20 -- Tony Dungy (disagree - Peyton coached the Colts offense)
No. 19 -- Mike Shanahan (another disagree)
No. 18 -- Sid Gillman (agreed - 1963 Chargers better than 1963 NFL champ Bears)
No. 17 -- Marv Levy (could not coach up Bills in Super Bowls)
No. 16 -- Hank Stram (good to see 2 AFC coaches on the list)
No. 15 -- Bud Grant (outcoached by Stram in Super Bowl IV and same issue as Levy)
No. 14 -- Tom Coughlin (rated too high - New York bias)
No. 13 -- Jimmy Johnson
No. 12 -- John Madden (that Raiders team was an Al Davis production)
No. 11 -- Bill Parcells
No. 10 -- Curly Lambeau
No. 9 -- Joe Gibbs (underrated)
No. 8 -- Tom Landry (could have been higher but for 70s Steelers that beat him)

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/greatestcoach8/greatest-coaches-nfl-history-tom-landry

Noll better go above Belichick and will go below Shula, Brown, Walsh, Halas and Lombardi

So I bet Noll is #6 on the list

ebsteelers
06-04-2013, 02:54 PM
With Tom Landry at #8 the question is where Chuck Noll will fit in the remaining top 7

The countdown so far

No. 20 -- Tony Dungy (disagree - Peyton coached the Colts offense)
No. 19 -- Mike Shanahan (another disagree)
No. 18 -- Sid Gillman (agreed - 1963 Chargers better than 1963 NFL champ Bears)
No. 17 -- Marv Levy (could not coach up Bills in Super Bowls)
No. 16 -- Hank Stram (good to see 2 AFC coaches on the list)
No. 15 -- Bud Grant (outcoached by Stram in Super Bowl IV and same issue as Levy)
No. 14 -- Tom Coughlin (rated too high - New York bias)
No. 13 -- Jimmy Johnson
No. 12 -- John Madden (that Raiders team was an Al Davis production)
No. 11 -- Bill Parcells
No. 10 -- Curly Lambeau
No. 9 -- Joe Gibbs (underrated)
No. 8 -- Tom Landry (could have been higher but for 70s Steelers that beat him)

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/greatestcoach8/greatest-coaches-nfl-history-tom-landry

Noll better go above Belichick and will go below Shula, Brown, Walsh, Halas and Lombardi

So I bet Noll is #6 on the list


interesting list... 4 super bowl titles though... could be top 3.. he made the steelers what they are today.
i'll guess hes number 4 or 5.. walsh, halas, lombardi a head of him


but remember espn is near boston, dont be surprised if billy cheeks is in top 3

NSMaster56
06-04-2013, 06:39 PM
Having Landry outside the top-5 is insane, insulting and some other word that starts with I (Inconceivable?!).

43Hitman
06-04-2013, 07:53 PM
Of course Brady was a 6th round pick and Bradshaw was the first pick in the '70 draft

Yeah I know, good point. Billacheat still has no business being ranked higher than Noll though.

Atlanta Dan
06-04-2013, 08:08 PM
Having Landry outside the top-5 is insane, insulting and some other word that starts with I (Inconceivable?!).

Arguably Landry should be ranked ahead of Belichick (who I despise and who, like Landry, has an increasingly spotty record in playoff games), but who among Noll, Halas, Walsh, Shula, Lombardi and Paul Brown should be ranked below Landry?

NSMaster56
06-04-2013, 09:32 PM
Arguably Landry should be ranked ahead of Belichick (who I despise and who, like Landry, has an increasingly spotty record in playoff games), but who among Noll, Halas, Walsh, Shula, Lombardi and Paul Brown should be ranked below Landry?

Halas and Brown are LONG before my time, so I can't accurately speak on their prowess.

(Granted, Noll, Walsh, Lombardi and (most of) Shula are, also 'before my time, but only slightly so. Plus, they all coached post-merger and we have enough game footage and semi-modern testimonial to accurately gauge them.)

That aside, one-through-five should be (in no particular order):
Landry, Lombardi, Shula and Walsh... with Noll and the old timers battling for fifth-sixth-seventh.

Reasoning for the four 'iron-clads':
Walsh revolutionized passing/offense. He's also the Abraham (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/Bill_Walsh_Coaching_Tree.svg/791px-Bill_Walsh_Coaching_Tree.svg.png) of [modern] coaching.
Not only did Landry establish Dallas as 'America's Team', but for nearly three decades he succeeded [with excellence] with Meredith, Morton, Staubach and White under center.
Shula made both the Colts and Dolphins the barometer of excellence. He succeeded for more than three decades with Griese, Marino, Morrall, Unitas and Woodley under center.
They named the title trophy after Lombardi. Enough said.

Until BB has success with a QB not named Brady he's 'overrated'.

Atlanta Dan
06-04-2013, 10:29 PM
Halas and Brown are LONG before my time, so I can't accurately speak on their prowess.

(Granted, Noll, Walsh, Lombardi and (most of) Shula are, also 'before my time, but only slightly so. Plus, they all coached post-merger and we have enough game footage and semi-modern testimonial to accurately gauge them.)

That aside, one-through-five should be (in no particular order):
Landry, Lombardi, Shula and Walsh... with Noll and the old timers battling for fifth-sixth-seventh.

Reasoning for the four 'iron-clads':
Walsh revolutionized passing/offense. He's also the Abraham (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/Bill_Walsh_Coaching_Tree.svg/791px-Bill_Walsh_Coaching_Tree.svg.png) of [modern] coaching.
Not only did Landry establish Dallas as 'America's Team', but for nearly three decades he succeeded [with excellence] with Meredith, Morton, Staubach and White under center.
Shula made both the Colts and Dolphins the barometer of excellence. He succeeded for more than three decades with Griese, Marino, Morrall, Unitas and Woodley under center.
They named the title trophy after Lombardi. Enough said.

Until BB has success with a QB not named Brady he's 'overrated'.

Landry only won championships with Staubach - as far as the Danny White era goes, his teams lost to the 49ers, Redskins, and Eagles

Noll won twice as many championships as Landry and pretty much owned Landry in both regular season and championship games - I think on any place other than a Cowboys message board you will not see Landry ranked over Noll

As far as establishing Dallas as America's Team, NFL Films did that

:drink:

GMU Steeler
06-04-2013, 11:08 PM
Landry only won championships with Staubach - as far as the Danny White era goes, his teams lost to the 49ers, Redskins, and Eagles

Noll won twice as many championships as Landry and pretty much owned Landry in both regular season and championship games - I think on any place other than a Cowboys message board you will not see Landry ranked over Noll

As far as establishing Dallas as America's Team, NFL Films did that

:drink:

Isn't the story that The Chief turned down the offer saying "We're Pittsburgh's team." Anyhow yeah I'd take Noll over Landry especially given 4 > 2 and the 2-0 record in head to head in the SB.

kan_t
06-05-2013, 05:02 AM
Landry only won championships with Staubach - as far as the Danny White era goes, his teams lost to the 49ers, Redskins, and Eagles

Noll won twice as many championships as Landry and pretty much owned Landry in both regular season and championship games - I think on any place other than a Cowboys message board you will not see Landry ranked over Noll

As far as establishing Dallas as America's Team, NFL Films did that

:drink:
The reason Landry may rank over Noll is that he also invented (or is given credit to) 4-3 defense.

In coach ranking, people may not rank it strictly on team record but also coaching influence.

kan_t
06-05-2013, 05:12 AM
With Tom Landry at #8 the question is where Chuck Noll will fit in the remaining top 7

The countdown so far

No. 20 -- Tony Dungy (disagree - Peyton coached the Colts offense)
No. 19 -- Mike Shanahan (another disagree)
No. 18 -- Sid Gillman (agreed - 1963 Chargers better than 1963 NFL champ Bears)
No. 17 -- Marv Levy (could not coach up Bills in Super Bowls)
No. 16 -- Hank Stram (good to see 2 AFC coaches on the list)
No. 15 -- Bud Grant (outcoached by Stram in Super Bowl IV and same issue as Levy)
No. 14 -- Tom Coughlin (rated too high - New York bias)
No. 13 -- Jimmy Johnson
No. 12 -- John Madden (that Raiders team was an Al Davis production)
No. 11 -- Bill Parcells
No. 10 -- Curly Lambeau
No. 9 -- Joe Gibbs (underrated)
No. 8 -- Tom Landry (could have been higher but for 70s Steelers that beat him)

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/greatestcoach8/greatest-coaches-nfl-history-tom-landry

Noll better go above Belichick and will go below Shula, Brown, Walsh, Halas and Lombardi

So I bet Noll is #6 on the list
Joe Gibbs is very underrated. Winning 3 SBs with 3 different QBs and none of them are HOFers. Strictly speaking on coaching record that may be the most impressive feat.

patsfaninpittsburgh
06-05-2013, 08:52 AM
Landry only won championships with Staubach - as far as the Danny White era goes, his teams lost to the 49ers, Redskins, and Eagles

Noll won twice as many championships as Landry and pretty much owned Landry in both regular season and championship games - I think on any place other than a Cowboys message board you will not see Landry ranked over Noll

As far as establishing Dallas as America's Team, NFL Films did that

:drink:

"Pretty much owned"...yup...only in the 'burgh.

If Jackie Smith makes the catch in the end zone or..................in typical Steeler fashion...the officials don't magically come up with a bogus PI call....history is different.

Besides, the 80's weren't exactly kind to either franchise.

If anything was "owned" in the 70's, it was NFL officials and officials by the Rooney's.

How else does one explain bogus call after bogus call that limits it's benefit to one franchise.

pczach
06-05-2013, 09:13 AM
"Pretty much owned"...yup...only in the 'burgh.

If Jackie Smith makes the catch in the end zone or..................in typical Steeler fashion...the officials don't magically come up with a bogus PI call....history is different.

Besides, the 80's weren't exactly kind to either franchise.

If anything was "owned" in the 70's, it was NFL officials and officials by the Rooney's.

How else does one explain bogus call after bogus call that limits it's benefit to one franchise.

Fuck off asshole!

Brady's hair needs to be brushed. Split ends are not acceptable......run along moron.

pczach
06-05-2013, 09:14 AM
"Pretty much owned"...yup...only in the 'burgh.

If Jackie Smith makes the catch in the end zone or..................in typical Steeler fashion...the officials don't magically come up with a bogus PI call....history is different.

Besides, the 80's weren't exactly kind to either franchise.

If anything was "owned" in the 70's, it was NFL officials and officials by the Rooney's.

How else does one explain bogus call after bogus call that limits it's benefit to one franchise.

Hey moron, how many Super Bowls have the Patriots won since Spygate again?

:toofunny:

Atlanta Dan
06-05-2013, 11:13 AM
"Pretty much owned"...yup...only in the 'burgh.

If Jackie Smith makes the catch in the end zone or..................in typical Steeler fashion...the officials don't magically come up with a bogus PI call....history is different.

Besides, the 80's weren't exactly kind to either franchise.

If anything was "owned" in the 70's, it was NFL officials and officials by the Rooney's.

How else does one explain bogus call after bogus call that limits it's benefit to one franchise.

Welcome back - see you are still living in your parallel universe where the winning team actually lost because the losing team failed to make certain plays

So which team is greater - the undefeated 19-0 Patriots of 2007 or the 2011 Patriots team that beat the Giants again for the 5th Super Bowl victory of the Belichick/Brady era?

Atlanta Dan
06-05-2013, 01:56 PM
Belichick comes in at #7 on the ESPN list

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/greatestcoach7/greatest-coaches-nfl-history-bill-belichick

This ESPN columnist apparently wishes the ranking was higher

Were it not for Coughlin and Manning, he might be tied with Chuck Noll with four Super Bowl wins or even stand alone with five.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/greatestcoach-belichick/greatest-coaches-bill-belichick-ranking-limited-giants

pczach
06-05-2013, 02:06 PM
Belichick comes in at #7 on the ESPN list

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/greatestcoach7/greatest-coaches-nfl-history-bill-belichick

This ESPN columnist apparently wishes the ranking was higher

Were it not for Coughlin and Manning, he might be tied with Chuck Noll with four Super Bowl wins or even stand alone with five.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/greatestcoach-belichick/greatest-coaches-bill-belichick-ranking-limited-giants

Yeah, and maybe if not for cheating all those years, he'd be handing out men's cologne in rest rooms for a living...

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c89/jilliecats/Las%20Vegas%201-07/LasVegas1-25-07to1-29-07014.jpg

NSMaster56
06-05-2013, 05:46 PM
Landry only won championships with Staubach - as far as the Danny White era goes, his teams lost to the 49ers, Redskins, and Eagles

Sorry, I meant he 'won' as in "was successful and/or made the playoffs".

Whereas ALL of Belichick's success has been with Tom Boy.

Noll won twice as many championships as Landry and pretty much owned Landry in both regular season and championship games - I think on any place other than a Cowboys message board you will not see Landry ranked over Noll

I know this is a Steelers forum and all, and I'm a young-ish Steelers fan, but...

Noll is a tad 'overrated'. That is, in terms of longevity (and/or if we use the 'Belichick hasn't won without Brady' case against Belichick).

The bulk of his [EPIC] success came with Bradshaw under center and/or thanks to that legendary draft.

Though I haven't run the #'s, if you broke down Landry vs. Noll in terms of record (regular and post season) w/ different QB's, you'd probably see that Noll was epic with Bradshaw (and 'the Steel Curtain') and merely good without whereas Landry sustained success with four different QB's.

That's why I'd give the edge to Landry. It's close, but Landry edges it out.

Also, if Lombardi didn't have a pair of brass one's and the 'Ice Bowl' turned out differently, it might be called 'The Landry Trophy'...

As far as establishing Dallas as America's Team, NFL Films did that

:drink:

:chuckle:

True. But they had good reason with a class act like Landry making the 'Boys a formidable force for so long.

NSMaster56
06-05-2013, 05:55 PM
"Pretty much owned"...yup...only in the 'burgh.

If Jackie Smith makes the catch in the end zone or..................

Also that.

It's easy to say that Pittsburgh 'owned' Dallas because they beat them twice, but it's not like they were 92-93 Cowboys vs. Bills landslides.

In both games Dallas was one play from making things a different outcome.

It's not folly to use the 'COUNT DA RINGZZZ!!1' argument for Landry vs. Noll, but it's only one aspect of it.

All things considered, and biases put aside, it's a close battle.

NSMaster56
06-05-2013, 06:02 PM
Belichick comes in at #7 on the ESPN list

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/greatestcoach7/greatest-coaches-nfl-history-bill-belichick

This ESPN columnist apparently wishes the ranking was higher

Were it not for Coughlin and Manning, he might be tied with Chuck Noll with four Super Bowl wins or even stand alone with five.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/greatestcoach-belichick/greatest-coaches-bill-belichick-ranking-limited-giants

Yeah, that's a crap argument.

If not for Leonard Marshall how many rings would Seifert/Montana have?

If not for Scott Norwood and the Herschel Walker trade, how many rings would Marv Levy/Jim Kelly have?

We Steelers fans can count with GREAT detail the number of near-rings Noll and Sgt. Slaughter have.

Belichick's a great coach, but to 'pad' his resume with hypotheticals is a disservice to every other Head Coach who came thisclose to greater success.

Atlanta Dan
06-05-2013, 06:48 PM
Sorry, I meant he 'won' as in "was successful and/or made the playoffs".

Whereas ALL of Belichick's success has been with Tom Boy.

I know this is a Steelers forum and all, and I'm a young-ish Steelers fan, but...

Noll is a tad 'overrated'. That is, in terms of longevity (and/or if we use the 'Belichick hasn't won without Brady' case against Belichick).

The bulk of his [EPIC] success came with Bradshaw under center and/or thanks to that legendary draft.

Though I haven't run the #'s, if you broke down Landry vs. Noll in terms of record (regular and post season) w/ different QB's, you'd probably see that Noll was epic with Bradshaw (and 'the Steel Curtain') and merely good without whereas Landry sustained success with four different QB's.


Chuck Noll went to the AFC championship with Mark Malone as QB and made the playoffs with Malone, Cliff Stoudt and Bubby Brister - beat that:chuckle:

The rap on Landry until he won with Staubach was that he could not win the big one - with Staubach Landry won 2 and lost 2 Super Bowls to ... wait for it ... Noll. After Staubach's career ended so did Landry's trips to the Super Bowl, so the argument some coaches owe it all to their HOF QB does not only apply to Noll and Belichick (in fact it applies to every successful modern coach, including Saint Vince, other than Joe Gibbs)

I always hear how Noll owes it all to having so many Hall of Famers on those 70s teams - but it was the 4 Lombardis that put so many Steelers in Canton and arguably the 2 Steelers wins over Dallas in Super Bowls are why so many more 70s Steelers than 70s Cowboys are in Canton

I was fortunate to watch 70s football and can tell you the level of talent between the Cowboys, Raiders & Steelers was regarded at the time as pretty close (Bradshaw was regarded as inferior to Stabler and Staubach until the late 1970s) - so coaching counts for something

In addition, IMO Noll is given insufficient credit for having the flexibility to adapt on the fly with the rules changes in the late 1970s opened up the passing game - yeah he had the players to do so but lots of coaches have stuck with what has won for them previously until it is too late to change

As a writer once said about the great Casey Stengel allegedly being a great manager only because the Yankees had so much talent

Critics who denigrate him as a manager like to point out that of the four major league teams he ran, three never finished higher than fifth, and one of those never higher than 10th. It doesn't matter. There is a story about a fine poker player who described a better poker player by saying, "When I have the cards, I clean the table. When he has them, he cleans the room." When Stengel had the players, and the resources to get more, he cleaned the room.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1090349/index.htm

When Noll had the players he cleaned the room - Landry did not.

Atlanta Dan
06-05-2013, 07:00 PM
Also that.

It's easy to say that Pittsburgh 'owned' Dallas because they beat them twice, but it's not like they were 92-93 Cowboys vs. Bills landslides.

In both games Dallas was one play from making things a different outcome.

It's not folly to use the 'COUNT DA RINGZZZ!!1' argument for Landry vs. Noll, but it's only one aspect of it.

All things considered, and biases put aside, it's a close battle.

When both teams were at their peak the Steelers also beat Dallas in the regular season in 1977 and 1979 as well as when a declining Steelers team beat Dallas in Dallas for the Monday night opener in 1982 (what you regard as the Danny White era of success)

Sports Illustrated summed it up after the 1979 regular season loss

Mean Joe Greene, the elder statesman of the defensive line, drew a deep breath and pronounced in that deliberate way of his, " Dallas is a team that tries to fool you. They wait for you to make a mistake. Well, what happens when they don't fool you? Can they blow you out?" And he looked up and paused for a moment. "I think not."

This was nothing new in the recent history of the Dallas- Pittsburgh series. The computer has been feeding the Cowboys that same information since they played the Steelers in Super Bowl X in 1976, when Thomas Henderson almost broke the opening kickoff for a TD off a reverse, a gimmick play. Dallas has been trying to relive that magic moment ever since. Remember the flea flicker the Cowboys tried against the Steelers in Super Bowl XIII last January? That one cost them almost two freeway exits worth of yardage. But still the Cowboys try to bamboozle the Steelers, and Pittsburgh has now beaten them four straight, including Super Bowls X and XIII. Sooner or later the message will get through: Hey, Tom, the Steelers know which shell the pea is under....

"I don't think we really have to change anything," Landry said. " Pittsburgh just played an excellent defensive game. Even as poorly as we played offensively, we had chances to go in once or twice, but couldn't. If we do, it's a different story."

"If," Bradshaw said. "Always the big if.":chuckle:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1095568/1/index.htm

NSMaster56
06-05-2013, 09:03 PM
When Noll had the players he cleaned the room - Landry did not.

Pretty much.

Noll's peaks were higher than Landry's and he wins the head-to-head debate.

It's still a close debate for who's 'better' though. It's not as if one over the other is a right/wrong thing (although it's clear that the 70's Steelers were superior to the great 70's Cowboys).

Both were terrific head coaches for decades and impacted both their franchises and the NFL dramatically.

It would be interesting to break down their records w/ different QB's, vs. like opponents, yearly stat rankings, etc.

Fire Arians
06-05-2013, 09:52 PM
i would take cowher power over #20-15

ebsteelers
06-05-2013, 10:28 PM
Yeah, that's a crap argument.

If not for Leonard Marshall how many rings would Seifert/Montana have?

If not for Scott Norwood and the Herschel Walker trade, how many rings would Marv Levy/Jim Kelly have?

We Steelers fans can count with GREAT detail the number of near-rings Noll and Sgt. Slaughter have.

Belichick's a great coach, but to 'pad' his resume with hypotheticals is a disservice to every other Head Coach who came thisclose to greater success.

if if if if i didnt have some big man meat, i'd be a lady...


steelers could have 10 rings if things went right in the 90s

and if no spygate could be up to 12 rings

Buddha Bus
06-06-2013, 04:06 AM
"Pretty much owned"...yup...only in the 'burgh.

If Jackie Smith makes the catch in the end zone or..................in typical Steeler fashion...the officials don't magically come up with a bogus PI call....history is different.

Besides, the 80's weren't exactly kind to either franchise.

If anything was "owned" in the 70's, it was NFL officials and officials by the Rooney's.

How else does one explain bogus call after bogus call that limits it's benefit to one franchise.


Don't you have some mulching to do in my yard, idiot? If you don't get your shit together I'm gonna switch from a rolled up newspaper to a size 10-1/2 steel-toed boot up your ass. I would have thought rubbing your nose in your own feces would have taught you to respect your superiors, but I guess you're just too stupid for that. You really need to stop drinking the Weed-B-Gon. I know you get a courage buzz from it and come here trying to talk smack, but your shit is weak and that stuff is no good for you.

Maybe I'll get one of those dog tethers for you that you screw into the ground so I can get you to concentrate on something you know a little better than football..... hard manual labor. Now.... GET TO WORK, BITCH-BOY! :whip:

And everybody else here, keep this on the down-low. I don't need any grief from the authorities for violating child labor laws. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/Gemaki/Mocons/be7eab06-1.gif

Atlanta Dan
06-06-2013, 07:50 AM
Pretty much.

Noll's peaks were higher than Landry's and he wins the head-to-head debate.

It's still a close debate for who's 'better' though. It's not as if one over the other is a right/wrong thing (although it's clear that the 70's Steelers were superior to the great 70's Cowboys).

Both were terrific head coaches for decades and impacted both their franchises and the NFL dramatically.

It would be interesting to break down their records w/ different QB's, vs. like opponents, yearly stat rankings, etc.

Agreed Landry and Noll were both great coaches - when you get to that level ranking one over the other admittedly involves what data you want to cite in support of an admittedly subjective opinion:drink:

Atlanta Dan
06-06-2013, 11:06 AM
Paul Brown at #6

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/greatestcoach6/greatest-coaches-nfl-history-paul-brown

IMO that is too low - Brown basically invented much of how the modern game is coached

Don Shula on Paul Brown's influence

I was brought up on Paul Brown football. I played college ball at John Carroll, a small school outside Cleveland. I think our coach, Herb Eisele, went to every clinic that Paul Brown ever had. Our terminology was same terminology that the Browns used, although obviously a lot simpler.

When I was drafted by the Browns, it was just a continuation of the same Paul Brown system, just a lot more sophisticated. Then I got traded to the Baltimore Colts, and the coach there, Weeb Ewbank, was a Brown guy, too. My 33 years [as an NFL head coach], that was pretty much from the Paul Brown playbook. Chuck Noll, same thing. He took it and did some pretty good things in Pittsburgh, won four Super Bowls.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/greatestcoach6/greatest-coaches-nfl-history-paul-brown

ebsteelers
06-06-2013, 11:42 AM
noll
shula,
walsh,
halas
lombardi


of the remainders any of them who would be 1 wouldnt be a bad choice though

Atlanta Dan
06-06-2013, 03:36 PM
noll
shula,
walsh,
halas
lombardi


of the remainders any of them who would be 1 wouldnt be a bad choice though

I think Halas will go below Walsh for the same reason Brown only got #6 - with the passage of time the older coaches are diminished

GMU Steeler
06-06-2013, 04:12 PM
I think Halas will go below Walsh for the same reason Brown only got #6 - with the passage of time the older coaches are diminished

Yep with the exception of Lombardi, the older coaches will be hurt because while they were certainly great ones, they don't have Lombardi's iconic status. Lombardi after all is the man that the SB trophy is named after, a man that even most non-football fans know, etc.

NSMaster56
06-06-2013, 10:25 PM
I think Halas will go below Walsh for the same reason Brown only got #6 - with the passage of time the older coaches are diminished

Yep with the exception of Lombardi, the older coaches will be hurt because while they were certainly great ones, they don't have Lombardi's iconic status. Lombardi after all is the man that the SB trophy is named after, a man that even most non-football fans know, etc.

Good points.

Also, there seems to be a general idea that the original may have been too 'primitive' and that 'renovations' and 'revolutions' either impacted the game more or made it more effective.

For example, think of the original motor cars or phones compared to cars or phones of today. We can give a ton of credit to Benz and Bell (or others) for their original designs, but compared to what they've become they're... 'obsolete'.

Not that such thinking is correct, rather that it's focused more on the 'evolution' and not the 'creation'.

It's tough to separate the two or give them their respective dues simultaneously (or without bias) because the achievements are equally impressive based on conditions (and viewed from vastly different perspectives).

ebsteelers
06-07-2013, 02:43 PM
Chuck is 5

In 1969, Chuck Noll took over a Pittsburgh Steelers team that had never won a title of any kind. By the time he left 23 seasons later, the Steelers had become one of the NFL's greatest dynasties, with four Super Bowl wins.



Noll's Steelers won nine AFC Central titles in all, and their four championships came in a six-year period, spanning the 1974 through 1979 seasons. The only coach to win four Super Bowls, Noll was inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 1993.



Starting during his playing days, Noll was groomed by some of the greatest coaches in NFL history. The Cleveland Browns selected him out of Dayton in the 1953 draft, giving him a chance to win two NFL championships while playing offensive line and linebacker for seven seasons under Paul Brown.



Noll got his start in coaching in 1960, the year after he finished his playing career, as a defensive assistant under Sid Gillman with the AFL's Los Angeles Chargers. He followed the franchise to San Diego and worked with Gillman fox six seasons, then moved to Don Shula's staff with the Baltimore Colts in 1966 before landing his first -- and only -- head-coaching job three years later.



Noll had almost become Patriots' head coach days before the Steelers hired him in 1969. Boston owner Billy Sullivan's two finalists were Noll and New York Jets assistant Clive Rush. Since the Jets had just defeated the Colts in Super Bowl III, Sullivan opted for Rush. The Patriots went 5-16 under Rush, who was gone after a 1-6 start in 1970.



Noll believed in building through the draft and emphasizing defense. Pittsburgh's 1974 draft, which featured four future Hall of Famers -- Lynn Swann, Jack Lambert, John Stallworth and Mike Webster -- among the team's first five picks, is widely acknowledged as the best in NFL history. The Steelers' "Steel Curtain" was one of the most feared defenses of the 1970s.



Hall of Famers Joe Greene, Jack Ham, Mel Blount, Terry Bradshaw, Lambert, Swann and Stallworth played their entire careers under Noll. Coaches who worked under Noll include Tony Dungy, John Fox and Bud Carson.



-- Shawna Seed






NOLL THROUGH THE EYES OF A PLAYER: MEL BLOUNT

The big thing with Chuck Noll was how consistent he was dealing with players. As a player, you always knew what to do and when to do it. He was always consistent with how he dealt with people. It didn't matter if you came from Penn State or Florida A&M or whether you were from USC or Southern University.




[+] Enlarge
Malcolm Emmons/USA TODAY Sports
Steelers players always knew what was expected of them under Chuck Noll.


I don't see current coaches dealing with players the way he did. It's a different game now, and I see a lot of coaches getting caught up in the media with the way they deal with players. You see it on the sidelines. Chuck Noll was always consistent. You wouldn't see him give a high five if you made a great play or get in your face if you made a bad play. I guess that would make Chuck Noll a dinosaur now.



His pregame speeches were usually him talking about the game plan and how we had to use our fundamentals. But I was talking to Joe Greene about this the other day. The one pregame we never forgot was before our playoff game against the Oakland Raiders in 1974.



The week before, the Raiders beat the Miami Dolphins. Somebody saw that John Madden said the two best teams in football played that week and that was the Super Bowl. Chuck came in and said we were going out there and were going to win this game. He said we have the best team. We all looked around and said, "Wow." We had never seen that from Chuck. We went out there, won the game and went on to win our first Super Bowl.



-- Former Steelers defensive back and Hall of Famer Mel Blount, as told to John Clayton

ebsteelers
06-07-2013, 02:44 PM
it seems fair...

the last 5 is gonna be spilting hairs anyway..

4 rings, made the steelers who they are.

but all the guys a head of him, are inovaters to the sport.

so 5 is understandable

Atlanta Dan
06-08-2013, 09:26 AM
I think Halas will go below Walsh for the same reason Brown only got #6 - with the passage of time the older coaches are diminished

Yep - Halas at #4 below Walsh and Shula - guess Halas should have won more games and championships:noidea:

When "Papa Bear" was done coaching for good after the 1967 season, his 324 total victories were far and away the most in history. That record stood for 27 years until Don Shula surpassed it in 1993....

Forty-two years elapsed between George Halas' first and last championships. He won six titles in total.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/greatestcoach4/greatest-coaches-nfl-history-george-halas

ebsteelers
06-08-2013, 09:40 AM
Yep - Halas at #4 below Walsh and Shula - guess Halas should have won more games and championships:noidea:

When "Papa Bear" was done coaching for good after the 1967 season, his 324 total victories were far and away the most in history. That record stood for 27 years until Don Shula surpassed it in 1993....

Forty-two years elapsed between George Halas' first and last championships. He won six titles in total.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/greatestcoach4/greatest-coaches-nfl-history-george-halas

good call..

im only 24 and still know the importance of halas to the game... apparently this list is made up of by some guys who dont understand his greatness.

i guess shula 3, walsh 2?

sidenote

i never realized walsh "only" had 3 super bowl titles, i had thought he had won all 4 in the 80s and george won in the 90s..

Atlanta Dan
06-08-2013, 09:49 AM
i guess shula 3, walsh 2?.

I bet Shula gets #2 over Walsh because of the 17-0 season and the all time wins record even though Shula was 2-3 in Super Bowls (including the all time upset loss to the Jets) and did not win a championship during his final 2 decades as a coach

ebsteelers
06-09-2013, 11:08 AM
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/greatestcoach3/greatest-coaches-nfl-history-don-shula

f they ever build a Mount Rushmore for NFL coaches, Don Shula's face will be on it. Until then, an expressway bearing his name in Miami-Dade County will have to do.

In an NFL head-coaching career full of highlights, he is best known for setting the career wins record (347, including postseason) and leading the 1972 Miami Dolphins to the NFL's first perfect season.

His 33-year head-coaching career with the Baltimore Colts and Dolphins included a record 19 playoff appearances and just two sub-.500 seasons. Shula led teams to a record six Super Bowls, with his Dolphins winning twice (1972 and 1973 seasons), and he was the first coach to reach three consecutive Super Bowls (1971-73 seasons).

Shula cut his teeth in the NFL as a defensive back for three teams and played for the likes of coaching legends Paul Brown (two seasons) and Weeb Ewbank (three seasons). After his playing days were over, Shula worked two seasons as a college assistant -- including one under Brown disciple Blanton Collier at Kentucky -- before becoming the Detroit Lions' defensive coordinator in 1960. In 1963, at age 33, Shula replaced Ewbank as the Colts' head coach. In the 1968 season, Shula's NFL champion Colts lost to Ewbank's New York Jets in Super Bowl III, the first AFL-NFL championship to officially be called a Super Bowl.

In 1970, the Dolphins lured Shula away from Baltimore and made him the second coach in franchise history -- succeeding George Wilson, whom Shula coached under in Detroit. Shula led Miami to its first playoff berth that season and its first AFC championship a year later. Then came the perfect season and back-to-back championships. The Dolphins also went to the Super Bowl under Shula in the 1982 and 1984 seasons.

Shula retired following the 1995 season, his 26th in Miami, after taking the Dolphins to the playoffs for the 16th time. He was inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 1997.

In the early '70s, Shula and Dolphins defensive coordinator Bill Arnsparger were at the forefront of bringing the 3-4 defense from the college ranks to the NFL. Shula's most successful assistant was Chuck Noll, who served as the Colts' defensive backfield coach and coordinator for three seasons before beginning a long, successful run as the Pittsburgh Steelers' head coach in 1969.

-- Kevin Stone


SHULA THROUGH THE EYES OF A PLAYER: BOB GRIESE
He followed George Wilson as the head coach in Miami in 1970. He was a guy on the rise and really hungry to win. At his very first press conference he said, "That kid Griese's OK at quarterback, but there's one thing I don't like about him. He scrambles too much; I want him to stay in the pocket."

[+] Enlarge
AP Photo
Don Shula got a lift after the Dolphins defeated the Redskins in Super Bowl VII to complete the NFL's first perfect season on Jan. 14, 1973 in Los Angeles.
Well, I wasn't too happy about that. I said to Coach Shula, "There was no pocket. Give me a pocket and I'll stay in it." I had to straighten him out, but eventually we found an offensive line that could protect me. He was stern, yes, but everything a coach can be -- and should be.

He played the game. He was always bragging about his 21 interceptions. And he was smart. We could tell he wanted to win and, very soon, we knew we were going to win. He said we're going to run a lot more and work hard -- which none of us minded.

He didn't miss much. There was one practice, where the defense and offense were working on separate fields. He was 60, 70 yards away with the defense. I ran a little bootleg and I was walking back to the huddle, and he hollers, "Hey, Griese, get your ass in gear! Run back to that huddle!" I'm still not sure how he saw that.

The Dolphins were 3-10-1 the year before, but we finished 10-4 in his first season. We got to the Super Bowl the next year and we won it the next two. I think 347 wins is a terrific record. He never really slowed down and never got tired.

When we lost, he'd give us hell on Monday, but on Tuesday that game was history. When we won, he'd say, "You've got to come back and do it again the next week." Even when we won them all [17-0 in 1972], he said, "That was great, but now we're going to come back next season and do it again."

-- Former Dolphins quarterback and and Hall of Famer Bob Griese, as told to Greg Garber


ESPN "Greatest Coaches in NFL History" voting panel: Chris Berman, Jeffri Chadiha, John Clayton, Colin Cowherd, Mike Ditka, Gregg Easterbrook, Herm Edwards, David Fleming, Ashley Fox, Greg Garber, Mike Golic, Suzy Kolber, Eric Mangini, Chris Mortensen, Sal Paolantonio, Bill Polian, Rick Reilly, Mike Sando, Adam Schefter, Ed Werder, Seth Wickersham, Trey Wingo.

workinghard
06-10-2013, 06:51 PM
Could Noll have won 3 SBs with Brady? Could Belichick have won 4 with Bradshaw and that defense?

fansince'76
06-10-2013, 06:59 PM
Could Noll have won 3 SBs with Brady?

Considering that he got to one AFC championship with Mark Malone under center and within a point of going to another one with Bubby Brister, yeah, probably.

workinghard
06-10-2013, 09:37 PM
Considering that he got to one AFC championship with Mark Malone under center and within a point of going to another one with Bubby Brister, yeah, probably.

Maybe, maybe not. The Patriots could be 0 for 5 for their last 5 SB appearances, and they could be 5 and 0. Every game was close.

You have to look at the complete body of work.

ebsteelers
06-11-2013, 12:08 PM
Vince Lombardi took over a downtrodden Green Bay Packers team in 1959 and turned it into professional football's most dominant organization of the 1960s.




GREATEST COACHES IN NFL HISTORY



This series is a collaborative effort between ESPN TV, ESPN.com, ESPN Digital Video, ESPN The Magazine,
the Elias Sports Bureau, ESPN Radio
and ESPN Stats & Info.

Counting down to the 100th anniversary of Vince Lombardi's birth on June 11, 2013, we selected the top 20 coaches of all time, as chosen by a blue-ribbon panel of ESPN analysts and writers.

We've also traced the NFL's evolution with 14 extensive features on the league's most significant coaching trees.

In all, we've profiled 175 coaches in more than 50,000 words, a colossal project befitting the greatest coaches in NFL history.

Also see:
• Vince Lombardi coaching tree
• Lombardi tree photo gallery
• Coaching countdown snubs
• Current coaches set for greatness
• "Greatest Coaches" home page



Lombardi, a tireless worker with exacting standards, led Green Bay to five championships in nine seasons as head coach. His Packers won the first two Super Bowls, and the trophy given to the league champion now bears his name. In his 15 seasons as an NFL assistant and head coach, his teams never had a losing season.



Lombardi was born in Brooklyn and played college football at Fordham University, at which he was a member of the offensive line known as "The Seven Blocks of Granite." After a stint coaching high school football and working as an assistant at Fordham, Lombardi joined the staff of the legendary Red Blaik at Army in 1949.



His next move was to the New York Giants, for whom he was offensive backfield coach (while Tom Landry was defensive coordinator) for five seasons (1954-58) under Jim Lee Howell. The 1956 Giants won the NFL championship, a taste of things to come for Lombardi.



The Packers hadn't finished above .500 since 1947 -- while team founder Curly Lambeau was still roaming the sidelines -- when they hired Lombardi as head coach and general manager on Jan. 28, 1959. Lombardi was offered the job only after Iowa coach Forrest Evashevski turned it down.


They went 7-5 in his first season for their highest win total since 1944. Green Bay played in the NFL Championship Game in Lombardi's second season and won it all in 1961 and '62. In 1965, the Packers started a run of three consecutive championships to bring Lombardi's total to five.



The Packers dominated the Kansas City Chiefs 35-10 to cap off the 1966 season in the first matchup between the champions of the NFL and AFL. A year later, it was another Green Bay Super Bowl blowout, 33-14 over the Oakland Raiders.



Lombardi retired from coaching the Packers after Super Bowl II but retained his general manager duties in 1968. He returned to the sideline in 1969 as head coach of the Washington Redskins, who lured him with an ownership stake. Lombardi led the Redskins to their first winning record in 15 years that season.



Lombardi died of cancer on Sept. 3, 1970 at age 57, just a few months after learning he was ill. When Lombardi died, only Guy Chamberlin, who coached in the 1920s, had a higher career winning percentage (John Madden would later pass Lombardi in that category). Lombardi still holds the highest playoff winning percentage of all time (.900). He was inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame a year after his death.




-- Shawna Seed






LOMBARDI THROUGH THE EYES OF A PLAYER: BART STARR

For the folks who weren't in the meeting rooms and on the practice field, I would tell you the story of how Coach Lombardi approached us when he first came to Green Bay. I had already been there for three seasons, and we had not had much success.




[+] Enlarge
AP Photo
Following the Packers' victory over the Chiefs in the initial AFL-NFL Championship Game, Vince Lombardi is handed the trophy that would later bear his name.


Well, in our first session, he was so strong and dynamic and powerful; when we took our first break after 30 minutes or so, I ran down the hall and into one of the offices and called my wife back here in Alabama. I said, "Honey, we're going to start winning." I mean, it was that obvious.



His charisma, his manner was very, very impressive. One of the first things he said was we're going to relentlessly pursue perfection -- even though we know full well that we won't catch it, because nothing is perfect. Put the RELENTLESSLY in capital letters, because that's how he said it.



There was just a magnetism in that session that was overwhelming. He was a tough and demanding individual and, because I came from a military family, I was loving that. We were so well prepared in how we approached everything that when it came down to the game, it was going to work -- or you got down to time where it needed to work.



At the same time, he was very fair and objective. One time in my first or second year, he just chewed my butt out in a big group meeting. I had made some errors, some small things, but he really got into me. Later that day, I asked permission to see him. I said to him, "I know I made some mistakes, but the next time I do that, I would ask you respectfully to do it in the privacy of this office. I have to lead these men and I can't do it to the full extent if you're undermining me in front of them."



Well, he looked at me and he apologized and said, "It will never happen again." And, nope, it never did.



-- Former Packers quarterback and Hall of Famer Bart Starr, as told to Greg Garber







obvious choice, set it up for his 100th birthday..

dont think too many people will argue this choice..