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teegre
06-23-2013, 12:32 PM
Here is the thing about these political discussions. Some of us can discuss politics, but some people tend to go "too far."

Let's start with the good.

Mach1 is one of the ones, that I've found, who asserts his opinion (whether I agree or not) and doesn't go to the "other level." For example, the post of his that comes to mind is where he asked that the Supreme Court "uphold the Constitution."

Simple... non-inflammatory... and not making a personal slur towards any other person/political party.

Now, his interpretation of what "upholding the Constitution" means, and what it means to Vis... are two entirely different things. But, that is a discussion that can be had.

Alas, someone undoubtedly will come along, and add some vitriol... which ruins any chance of a discussion. And the thread quickly becomes a series of personal attacks and/or school-yard bickering.

For example:

Mach1 says: "Uphold the Constitution."

Vis replies: "What is your interpretation of the second amendment?"

Someone bursts in, and posts something like: "Obama hates God" or "Screw all of the Catholic a$$holes" or, a racial slur is added to the mix.

Ugh.

Another way of putting it is that some topics are debatable, some topics are not so debatable, and some posts are just plain mean-spirited.

"We need more funds going towards _____." Whether I agree or not is irrelevant; this is a discussion about allotment of our tax money. One can insert any of the following into the blank space: military, education, police, public roads, health care, the border, et cetera.

"We need prayer in school" (or, similar religious topics) are not as debatable, IMO, because I am a believer in the separation of church & state. That said, there is room for some debate. BUT... this is where some politicians (& posters) lose me. I might agree with sending more money to military families and/or to schools, but then, the pundit adds the words "Because God wants it that way"... and I cringe. (Which God? whose God? and, the aforementioned separation of church & state.)

Lastly, there are the topics that are just personal attacks on political parties, genders, races, and/or other posters... with no room for discussion; the goal of those posts is just to hurt feelings. Alas, those are becoming more & more prevalent.

As I've stated numerous times, I can sit at at BBQ, at a table with people of five different ethnicities, of three different religious affiliations, of two different sexual orientations... Marines, teachers, & construction workers... and we can discuss these topics in a civil manner. It can be done... it can be done.

Buddha Bus
06-23-2013, 12:46 PM
Unfortunately, I think it is the goal of some posters to just stir shit, illicit negative reaction, and throw tantrums when they aren't agreed with. Sad really.

MACH1
06-23-2013, 01:52 PM
:uhh:

Oh I've done my fair share of shit stirring over the years, just ask Tony. :chuckle:
But yea having a respectful conservation, It can be done. Opinions are like assholes everybody has one and we're not always going to agree on everything, sometimes you just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. Someones more than likely not going to change my opinion and I'm probably not going to change theirs and I'm not going to get all butt hurt because they don't share my opinion. And I'm not going to start lecturing and telling people how and what to think if they don't agree with me.

As far as the prayer in school thing if it's not allowed then it's not allowed. Lets not be hypocritical and deny christian prayer then turn around and allow muslim prayer for fear of offending them.

Bayz101
06-23-2013, 01:53 PM
Civility. That is all.

The_Joker
06-23-2013, 02:15 PM
Believe me, I love civil conversations, but when some people burst in going LOL OBAMA IS A MUSLIM ATHEIST TERRORIST COMMIE SCUMBAG GO JESUS AND RON PAUL I don't care to be civil anymore.

Bayz101
06-23-2013, 02:28 PM
Believe me, I love civil conversations, but when some people burst in going LOL OBAMA IS A MUSLIM ATHEIST TERRORIST COMMIE SCUMBAG GO JESUS AND RON PAUL I don't care to be civil anymore.

I don't recall seeing that being said, but I understand. When someone shares an opinion other than yours, you don't care to be civil anymore. :thumbsup:

Keep in mind that most everyone has carried on civil discussions in the Locker room over the last couple of weeks, and only on some occasions have people gotten out of line. On those occasions, infractions were issued and those people moved on and reconciled. You on the other hand insist on dragging it through the mud and threatening personal attacks. If someone's opinions bother you so much, please hit the "ignore" button. I've went back through several dozens of posts, and not once were you personally attacked by anyone, and the attacks came from you. If an opinion bothers you so much, dispute it and present an argument against it. Don't resort to direct-personal attacks. It'll only get you in hot water.

Civility.

The_Joker
06-23-2013, 02:44 PM
I don't recall seeing that being said, but I understand. When someone shares an opinion other than yours, you don't care to be civil anymore. :thumbsup:

Keep in mind that most everyone has carried on civil discussions in the Locker room over the last couple of weeks, and only on some occasions have people gotten out of line. On those occasions, infractions were issued and those people moved on and reconciled. You on the other hand insist on dragging it through the mud and threatening personal attacks. If someone's opinions bother you so much, please hit the "ignore" button. I've went back through several dozens of posts, and not once were you personally attacked by anyone, and the attacks came from you. If an opinion bothers you so much, dispute it and present an argument against it. Don't resort to direct-personal attacks. It'll only get you in hot water.

Civility.

Wait wait wait, there is an ignore button?

Please tell me where.

And when someone shares an opinion that isn't civil, why should I be?

Bayz101
06-23-2013, 02:44 PM
People are GOING to have opinions you WILL NOT agree with. This is politics. Everyone here knows this. If someone has a differing opinion, the point of a forum is to discuss the differing opinions. If you feel strongly against someone's opinion, you either ignore this person or put together a case against it. Not personally attack the person presenting it. This an outlet for discussion, and if you can't agree, simply agree to disagree, and if it bothers you so much, ignore each other. Just don't resort to personally attacking and flaming each other, because infractions will be handed out. There's a report button attached to each post, and I strongly recommend using that button when you feel something needs to be looked at by us. We're not biased. Everyone gets the same treatment. If something needs to be done about a post on the forums, it'll get done.

Bayz101
06-23-2013, 02:45 PM
Wait wait wait, there is an ignore button?

Please tell me where.

And when someone shares an opinion that isn't civil, why should I be?

Visit the users profile, select "User lists" near "Send Message" and select "Add to ignore list" from the drop-down menu.

Bayz101
06-23-2013, 02:48 PM
Wait wait wait, there is an ignore button?

Please tell me where.

And when someone shares an opinion that isn't civil, why should I be?

There's a difference between being passionate about an opinion, and simply personally attacking someone. With politics, we expect members to be passionate and fiery about their opinions. We expect heated debates. All that jazz. It's when members begin personally attacking each other that things get messy and we have to step in.

The_Joker
06-23-2013, 02:59 PM
Thanks!

Anywho, just don't act suprised when I lash back at someone calling the President a monkey...

Bayz101
06-23-2013, 03:03 PM
Thanks!

Anywho, just don't act suprised when I lash back at someone calling the President a monkey...

There's a report button. It's a speech-bubble near a users online/offline indicator.

If someone calls the president a monkey, hit that little button. I would advise you refrain from lashing out at anyone until at least one of your infractions expire. :chuckle:

The_Joker
06-23-2013, 03:06 PM
There's a report button. It's a speech-bubble near a users online/offline indicator.

If someone calls the president a monkey, hit that little button. I would advise you refrain from lashing out at anyone until at least one of your infractions expire. :chuckle:


But what if I want to take a vacation again? Keeping Buddha in line is hard work, let me tell ya.

Bayz101
06-23-2013, 04:04 PM
But what if I want to take a vacation again? Keeping Buddha in line is hard work, let me tell ya.

Just keep in mind it'll be an extended vacation next time, and you'll actually start to miss him after about a week. :chuckle:

The_Joker
06-23-2013, 04:11 PM
Just keep in mind it'll be an extended vacation next time, and you'll actually start to miss him after about a week. :chuckle:

Paid leave or no?

Bayz101
06-23-2013, 04:24 PM
Paid leave or no?

http://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-administration/fact-sheets/leave-without-pay/

The_Joker
06-23-2013, 04:31 PM
http://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-administration/fact-sheets/leave-without-pay/

:'(

Why would you do that, I thought we had a special friendship!

teegre
06-23-2013, 05:51 PM
:uhh:

Oh I've done my fair share of shit stirring over the years, just ask Tony. :chuckle:
But yea having a respectful conservation, It can be done. Opinions are like assholes everybody has one and we're not always going to agree on everything, sometimes you just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. Someones more than likely not going to change my opinion and I'm probably not going to change theirs and I'm not going to get all butt hurt because they don't share my opinion. And I'm not going to start lecturing and telling people how and what to think if they don't agree with me.

As far as the prayer in school thing if it's not allowed then it's not allowed. Lets not be hypocritical and deny christian prayer then turn around and allow muslim prayer for fear of offending them.

1. Yep. People need to know when to "agree to disagree."

2. I enjoy discussing politics... and my friends (with whom I don't necessarily agree with politically) do so in a much different manner than I've seen here. Interestingly, Michael Savages' best friend is the polar opposite of him... which (he has stated) has provided him with hours of good discussion. In other words, differing opinions do not necessarily equal anger.

3. Absolutely: either everyone gets to (pray in school), or no one gets to pray... and (IMO) none of them should be.

teegre
06-23-2013, 05:55 PM
Believe me, I love civil conversations, but when some people burst in going LOL OBAMA IS A MUSLIM ATHEIST TERRORIST COMMIE SCUMBAG GO JESUS AND RON PAUL I don't care to be civil anymore.

Yeah... so... this is one of those types of posts that I was talking about.

Lady Steel
06-24-2013, 12:54 AM
I agree with Bayz that civility is the key. If you can't be civil, the administrators/moderators are gonna give you a lickin', and I'm gonna laugh. :laughing:

MasterOfPuppets
06-24-2013, 02:49 AM
I agree with Bayz that civility is the key. If you can't be civil, the administrators/moderators are gonna give you a lickin', and I'm gonna laugh. :laughing:
a bagz lickin ??? :chuckle:

Vis
06-24-2013, 06:30 AM
We also all have our hot button issues. Except me of course.

tony hipchest
06-24-2013, 12:21 PM
:uhh:

Oh I've done my fair share of shit stirring over the years, just ask Tony. :chuckle:
.

:laughing:

Teegree obviously missed the "Summer of Love, 2008". tour here at SF...

caplovestroyp43
06-24-2013, 12:31 PM
Exactly right on the prayer thing. Christians can't pray but muslims can? That is not fair. Seems like Christianity is taking more than its share of persecution these days. Very, very sad.

Vis
06-24-2013, 12:45 PM
Exactly right on the prayer thing. Christians can't pray but muslims can? That is not fair. Seems like Christianity is taking more than its share of persecution these days. Very, very sad.

You can pray wherever and whenever you want. No rule, no law has ever prevented it.

steelax04
06-24-2013, 12:47 PM
We also all have our hot button issues. Except me of course.

YOU are a hot button issue... and not in the way Buddha thinks.

SteelCityMom
06-24-2013, 12:50 PM
Christians can pray in school all they want. It's just the school can't lead everyone in prayer...they can't lead the entire school in Muslim prayer either. This is as it should be.

The whole issue is about letting some students (mind you, students who have excellent grades are the ones who get to do this, it's not for all of them) leave the classroom once, maybe twice, a day at their required prayer time.

So in all honesty, Christians still have the upper hand here since all they have to do to pray is bow their head and close their eyes whenever the feeling strikes them. Only certain Muslims (and this is only in certain schools from what I can tell) with high academic records are given the right to have their prayer time.

Fire Arians
06-24-2013, 01:00 PM
politics is stupid yo

Bayz101
06-24-2013, 01:24 PM
politics is stupid yo

Damn Polerticks! :chuckle:

The_Joker
06-24-2013, 02:11 PM
As an Atheist, all religions are equal in my eyes, so let them all pray whenever.

I don't have to like it and I don't, but I have no right to deny them that.

teegre
06-24-2013, 04:47 PM
As an Atheist, all religions are equal in my eyes, so let them all pray whenever.

I don't have to like it and I don't, but I have no right to deny them that.

As an American, all religious people/not religious people are equal in my eyes, so let them: all pray whenever, or none of them pray. Making exceptions for only one is a problem.

If there is no time allotted (for every student), the students would still have recess, nutrition breaks, and lunch... which still allows the Muslims the necessary two times (in the middle of the day) to pray. Christians/Catholics/Baptists/(et al) may pray then, too. Atheists will continue to play hackey-sack.

SteelCityMom
06-24-2013, 05:01 PM
As an American, all religious people/not religious people are equal in my eyes, so let them: all pray whenever, or none of them pray. Making exceptions for only one is a problem.

If there is no time allotted (for every student), the students would still have recess, nutrition breaks, and lunch... which still allows the Muslims the necessary two times (in the middle of the day) to pray. Christians/Catholics/Baptists/(et al) may pray then, too. Atheists will continue to play hackey-sack.

Right, but Muslims have specific times when they are supposed to pray, and those change as the seasons change. Also, many high schools have students going to lunch at different times, and elementary schools typically split their recess times up (i.e. grades 1 and 2 will go first, then 3rd and 4th and so on). So they aren't all having their breaks at the same time (usually...very small schools may have all their students do these things at the same time).

The (commanded) prayer times for Muslims are:

Fajr: Just before sunrise
Dhuhr: When the sun it at it's zenith (midday)
Asr: When the sun has declined and the shadow of an object is twice the object's actual height
Maghrib: At sunset, immediately upon the disappearance of the sun from the horizon (it is still a bit light out, but the sun is gone)
Isha: Nighttime, when all light has gone from the sky (approx 1 1/2 hours after maghrib)

So the specific times will change daily with seasonal changes. For example, in the summer, fajr will be very early, while in the winter it will be much later. The times will also vary from region to region.

teegre
06-24-2013, 05:03 PM
Right, but Muslims have specific times when they are supposed to pray, and those change as the seasons change. Also, many high schools have students going to lunch at different times, and elementary schools typically split their recess times up (i.e. grades 1 and 2 will go first, then 3rd and 4th and so on). So they aren't all having their breaks at the same time (usually...very small schools may have all their students do these things at the same time).

The (commanded) prayer times for Muslims are:

Fajr: Just before sunrise
Dhuhr: When the sun it at it's zenith (midday)
Asr: When the sun has declined and the shadow of an object is twice the object's actual height
Maghrib: At sunset, immediately upon the disappearance of the sun from the horizon (it is still a bit light out, but the sun is gone)
Isha: Nighttime, when all light has gone from the sky (approx 1 1/2 hours after maghrib)

So the specific times will change daily with seasonal changes. For example, in the summer, fajr will be very early, while in the winter it will be much later. The times will also vary from region to region.

Hmmm... that does indeed pose a problem.

As long as the other four times are "good", is the fourth allowable to be slightly off (e.g. if lunch is at 12:00-12:30, but the zenith is 12:45)?

I'm truly asking... I have no clue.

The_Joker
06-24-2013, 05:22 PM
Right, but Muslims have specific times when they are supposed to pray, and those change as the seasons change. Also, many high schools have students going to lunch at different times, and elementary schools typically split their recess times up (i.e. grades 1 and 2 will go first, then 3rd and 4th and so on). So they aren't all having their breaks at the same time (usually...very small schools may have all their students do these things at the same time).

The (commanded) prayer times for Muslims are:

Fajr: Just before sunrise
Dhuhr: When the sun it at it's zenith (midday)
Asr: When the sun has declined and the shadow of an object is twice the object's actual height
Maghrib: At sunset, immediately upon the disappearance of the sun from the horizon (it is still a bit light out, but the sun is gone)
Isha: Nighttime, when all light has gone from the sky (approx 1 1/2 hours after maghrib)

So the specific times will change daily with seasonal changes. For example, in the summer, fajr will be very early, while in the winter it will be much later. The times will also vary from region to region.

Hrm...

Weird, several of my friends are practicing Muslims and yet they never complain about their scheduals...

SteelCityMom
06-24-2013, 05:25 PM
Missed prayers can be made up at different times...but it should be as avoidable as possible, and that's why it's not a requirement for schools to allow all Muslims to have specific prayer times, I'm guessing. But they do feel it is important to meet the required times for the structure in their faith.

Again, it has to be realized that this was only in a couple of schools (or maybe even only one...I can't really remember) and it is only for Muslim students who excelled academically.

** This article is about one school in Maryland, where the students are allowed the time to go pray if they have good enough grades and parental permission. It mentions a couple of other school programs at the end.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/31/16791998-maryland-school-allows-muslim-students-to-leave-class-to-pray?lite

Also note in the article: While schools may restrict how students exercise their religious rights, the First Amendment guarantees they can practice their faith on school property.
Guidance provided by the Department of Education stipulates that schools "have the discretion to dismiss students to off-premises religious instruction, provided that schools do not encourage or discourage participation in such instruction or penalize students for attending or not attending.
"Similarly, schools may excuse students from class to remove a significant burden on their religious exercise, where doing so would not impose material burdens on other students," the guidance reads.

Guidance on Constitutionally Protected Prayer in Public Elementary and Secondary Schools
http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/religionandschools/prayer_guidance.html


I honestly don't think it's over the top to allow them to pray, and I think the grades requirement is a good one. They aren't playing favorites to any religion here.

teegre
06-24-2013, 06:46 PM
Hmmm... I don't know. I'm still not comfortable with prayer in school...

...and even more uncomfortable with only a select religion being given an "exception"...

...and totally against students who don't meet grade requirements being "punished."

If my kid is struggling in reading, he needs to pray (even more than a kid who is "at grade level"). I'm being tongue-in-cheek... to a degree. In all seriousness, I think that if they are going to let kids out to pray, the "not so smart" kids should be allowed. I equate it to not letting a kid eat lunch, because (let's say) he doesn't know his times tables. If they're gonna let the A students pray, then they should let the F students pray, too.

MasterOfPuppets
06-24-2013, 07:04 PM
Hmmm... I don't know. I'm still not comfortable with prayer in school...

...and even more uncomfortable with only a select religion being given an "exception"...

...and totally against students who don't meet grade requirements being "punished."

If my kid is struggling in reading, he needs to pray (even more than a kid who is "at grade level"). I'm being tongue-in-cheek... to a degree. In all seriousness, I think that if they are going to let kids out to pray, the "not so smart" kids should be allowed. I equate it to not letting a kid eat lunch, because (let's say) he doesn't know his times tables. If they're gonna let the A students pray, then they should let the F students pray, too.
so you think praying for better grades will help ? :pde:

MACH1
06-24-2013, 07:05 PM
Just a friendly reminder......

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/994168_10151518152822971_391170909_n.jpg

teegre
06-24-2013, 07:07 PM
so you think praying for better grades will help ? :pde:

It worked in high school.

Kidding aside...
If prayer is seen as a necessity of life, then it is equatable with lunch. Legally, teachers can not exclude ANY student from eating lunch... and thus, teachers should not have the right to take away prayer from students who are doing poorly in school. (Make sense?)