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83-Steelers-43 10-21-2007 04:34 AM

Steelers vs Broncos Game Day Thread - 10/21/07
Finally, the day has arrived.....:tt02:

Game 6 Matchup: Steelers vs. Broncos
Sunday, October 21, 2007
By Gerry Dulac, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Game plan

What the Steelers will do: The Broncos have allowed 79 points the past two games and their run defense is the worst in the league (187 ypg). That should mean lots of work for Willie Parker (507 yards) and Najeh Davenport (209), the AFC's No. 1 rushing tandem. Look for them to attack the corners in the run game because CBs Champ Bailey and Dre Bly are not good tacklers. QB Ben Roethlisberger, who completed his last 13 passes against the Seahawks, will need another big game from LT Marvel Smith, who gets another speed rusher, DE Elvis Dumervil (4 sacks).

What the Broncos will do: The loss of WR Javon Walker has led to inconsistency by QB Jay Cutler ( 6 INTs, 4 TDs). The Broncos, though, are a team that relies on the run. Travis Henry is fifth in the AFC (498 yards). However, this will be their first game without five-time Pro Bowl C Tom Nalen, and that could be a big mismatch. His replacement, Chris Myers, has to contain Pro Bowl NT Casey Hampton. Defensively, they will try to pressure QB Ben Roethlisberger with Dumervil, DE Simeon Rice and rookie DE Jarvis Moss in third-down situations.

Keep an eye on ...

CB Champ Bailey: He is generally regarded as the best in the NFL. He had 10 interceptions among his 21 passes defensed last year, even though teams rarely throw to his side (35 times in 2006). He is a rarity -- a cornerback who can catch -- and he has the speed and instincts to jump routes. But the Steelers did not back away from him the last time they played. Bailey, though, has been bothered by a thigh bruise and was limited in practice this week.


Game: Steelers (4-1) at Denver Broncos (2-3).

When: 8:15 p.m.

Where: Invesco Field.


Radio: WDVE-FM (102.5), WBGG-AM (970).


Each team is coming off an off week, so they've had plenty of time to prepare. The Broncos are 14-4 after an off week, the third-best percentage (.778) in the league. The Steelers' challenge is to perform better than their last game on the road (Arizona). The Broncos' challenge is to improve a defense that yielded 38 points to Indianapolis and 41 points to San Diego.

Keys to Victory

1 Get men on Ben. Roethlisberger has passed for 708 yards and three touchdowns in two games against Denver.

2 Say "Oh, Henry!" They have to be able to run the ball to keep the Steelers' blitz package away from Cutler.

3 Have Bailey be a champ. The Steelers insist they will not shy away from the Broncos' cornerback

To win, the Steelers must ...

1 Reduce turnovers. They committed six (three INTs, three fumbles) in last year's loss at Heinz Field, despite gaining 499 yards.

2 Stampede the Broncos. The Steelers have the league's No. 2 rush offense; the Broncos have the worst run defense.

3 Stop the chop. The three-man line has to be aware of Denver's penchant for throwing chop blocks to create holes.

83-Steelers-43 10-21-2007 04:35 AM

Re: Steelers vs Broncos Game Day Thread - 10/21/07
Head to Head: Broncos run offense vs. Steelers run defense
A closer look at the game within the game

Sunday, October 21, 2007
By Gerry Dulac, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

The names change, but the numbers almost never do. Terrell Davis. Olandis Gary. Mike Anderson. Clinton Portis. Reuben Droughns. Tatum Bell.

The Rocky Mountains might provide a nice setting for skiers and beer commercials, but they also have served as a breeding ground for 1,000-yard running backs. At least since Mike Shanahan became the head coach of the Denver Broncos.

"Whatever running back they have back there is always gaining a bunch of yards," said inside linebacker James Farrior. "It's been going on since I've been in the league."

Even longer.

Since he arrived in 1995, Shanahan and the Broncos have had a 1,000-yard back every season but one, and that was in 2001 when Davis was limited by injuries and gained 701 yards. But his replacement -- Anderson -- gained 678 that year, giving the Broncos a two-headed back who gained 1,379 yards.

The latest interchangeable part is running back Travis Henry, acquired in free agency after two seasons with the Tennessee Titans and four with the Buffalo Bills.

Henry, a Pro Bowl running back in 2002, has had three 1,000-yard seasons in his career. He is headed for a fourth -- he is fifth in the AFC with 498 yards rushing on 102 carries ----if he can continue to legally challenge a suspension for violating the league's substance-abuse policy.

"It's just the coaching," said defensive end Aaron Smith. "They have a great system, and the guys execute it well."

The Broncos and Steelers will share a similar philosophy, if not style, when the teams meet tonight at Invesco Field in Denver.

Since 1995, the Broncos (27,868) are the only NFL team to rush for more yards than the Steelers (26,799). They are also the only team with more 100-yard rushing performances (91) than the Steelers (82) in that time.

The Steelers, though, do a better job of stopping the run. They have the league's longest streak of not allowing a 100-yard rusher (30 games) and have allowed just one in the past 55 games.

What's more, the Broncos' offensive line -- the source of their running success -- has been juggled because of a season-ending injury to five-time Pro Bowl center Tom Nalen (torn bicep). Nalen will be replaced by guard Chris Myers and Chris Kuper, a fifth-round pick in 2006, will start at left guard.

"He's a good player," nose tackle Casey Hampton said of Nalen. "But with that type of offense, if you have anyone quick get in your way, you can pretty much do the same thing."

The Broncos' offensive line uses smaller, quicker players to execute the zone-blocking schemes introduced by former offensive line coach Alex Gibbs and continued by Gibbs-disciple Rick Dennison.

However, the Broncos employ a lot of tandem blocks -- known as cut blocks -- that often blur the line of what is allowed under NFL rules. Opponents claim the Broncos use chop blocks, which are illegal as well as dangerous because they can cause injuries.

Nalen was fined $25,000 last season for a cut block he threw on San Diego defensive tackle Igor Olshansky in the final minute of a game.

"That's all they do," Hampton said of the zone-blocking schemes. "When you do something over and over, that's all you do, you get good at it. That's been their running game for the past 10 years. They just perfected it."

83-Steelers-43 10-21-2007 04:35 AM

Re: Steelers vs Broncos Game Day Thread - 10/21/07
Ed Bouchette On the Steelers: Cut blocking
Sunday, October 21, 2007
By Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Every time the Denver Broncos play a game, at least against a team outside their own division, the topic of cut blocking comes up.

A cut block occurs below the knees and is legal if it happens in the front or -- near the line of scrimmage between the tackles -- from the side.

Denver long has used those kinds of blocks by their offensive linemen, perfected when Alex Gibbs was line coach from 1995 through 2003 and continued under current Broncos line coach Rick Denison.

The block is illegal if it comes from behind a defender or if the cut becomes a "chop" block -- if a player is engaged in a block by one lineman and another cuts his legs out.

The list of wounded defensive linemen playing against Denver is long and controversial.

Last season, Denver center Tom Nalen was fined $25,000 for illegally cutting San Diego defender Igor Olshanksy. Tackle Matt Lepsis was fined $15,000 in 2001 for ending the season of San Diego's Maa Tanuvasa, who had a broken ankle. Offensive tackle George Foster knocked two players out for the season in 2004 with cut blocks -- Cincinnati's Tony Williams and Jacksonville's Paul Spicer.

Even Bill Cowher publicly criticized Denver's technique after those plays at one of his weekly press conferences in 2004, saying the Broncos should "do unto others as you want them to do onto you.''

That prompted Denver coach Mike Shanahan to invite reporters in to a film session in which he showed other teams' players using the cut block, including Steelers guard Alan Faneca.

Steelers defensive linemen spent a lot of time this week answering questions about the tactic -- which often is discussed at NFL meetings but never banned. To a man, they said they cannot worry about it.

The blocking scheme has helped Denver produce a long list of 1,000-yard rushers. Since the 1995 season, when Gibbs began his second turn as Denver's line coach, the Broncos have had a 1,000-yard rusher every season but in 2001, and six different players have done it. Travis Henry, with 498 yards, will be well on his way to becoming the seventh if he is not suspended for a drug violation.

With all that success, the question is not so much why Denver does it but why more teams do not?

One reason is it has to be taught and ingrained, as it has in Denver for so long. The Steelers' famed trap blocking scheme worked under Chuck Noll but others rarely used it.

There's another reason.

"If you don't do it right, you get whooped,'' said Steelers defensive end Aaron Smith.

An offensive lineman has to lunge at the lower legs and if he misses, he's laying on the ground, of no use.

"You're going down and you're not getting up and blocking anybody else,'' Smith said. "If you try to cut me and miss, then I'm running free.''

Smith, of course, would like to see the block eliminated, but he grudgingly sees its advantage.

"I'd love it if it were illegal. Sometimes when you can't block somebody there's no other way to engage him. If you can't get a guy blocked, then try cutting him. It's a good strategy on their part, it's effective. It makes it difficult to play -- you're basically trying to neutralize the front guys by getting them on the ground."

The Haggans influence

Rookie linebacker LaMarr Woodley tied for the team lead with two sacks after three games and has not been seen on defense in the past two.

One reason for that is the play of Clark Haggans, who has 31/2 sacks and already surpassed his total of the entire 2006 season with nine quarterback pressures.

Woodley, though, likely will see plenty of time tonight in Denver, as will many of the backup defensive linemen. Recovery time in high altitude is important so the Steelers plan to substitute freely on defense tonight.

NFL covets


That was a lead balloon, not a trial balloon NFL commissioner Roger Goodell launched in Phoenix this week when he suggested a possible Super Bowl to be played in London.

"There's a great deal of interest in having a Super Bowl in London," Goodell said Monday. "We'll be looking at that."

The idea is as popular as Michael Vick at the New York Kennel Club.

It's one thing to export some preseason games overseas, it's even a stretch to play a regular season game in London, as the Giants and Dolphins will do next week.

But putting a Super Bowl in London? They won't even play one in Los Angeles anymore because that city does not have a team. Oh, fans would still watch it on television and if the game between the Dolphins and Giants sold out in 60 minutes or whatever, the Super Bowl in Wembley Stadium would sell quicker and in the more expensive Euros or whatever passes as legal tender in England these days.

It is all about the money, and the NFL has been trying to crack the European market for years. Apparently, the demise of NFL Europe or NFL Europa or the World League hasn't convinced them that it's not happening.

Think of football in Europe as soccer in America. A niche sport that will never make it big no matter how hard people try to shove one or the other down the citizens' throats.

That quick sellout by the Giants and Dolphins in London, though, has gotten the attention of the NFL, which has committed to playing one regular season game in London every year. What's to stop a team that may be struggling in a small market here -- Jacksonville comes to mind -- to think of moving over there? It's a six-hour flight from the East Coast, one less than an East Coast team flying to California or Seattle.

Good luck, though, trying to lure free agents.

It's all about the money

Don't look for the Steelers to put the franchise tag on Alan Faneca after the season, nor negotiate a new contract for him.

The Steelers have used the franchise tag only on a few occasions when they believed the player wanted to stay with them and wanted to sign a long-term contract. The most recent example was linebacker Jason Gildon, who signed a long-term deal within days after he was franchised.

They could do it, and Faneca acknowledged as much, but they won't. The franchise tag would keep Faneca under contract for one more season. But they would have to pay him a bundle to do so. This year, putting a franchise tag on an offensive lineman costs $9,556,000 in salary, all of it coming off the salary cap in 2007. It will rise next season.

The Steelers are not about to pay any offensive lineman a $10 million, one-year salary. They won't have that much room under the cap, for one thing. For another, if they wanted Faneca to stay, they would have negotiated a long-term deal for him last spring or summer.

83-Steelers-43 10-21-2007 04:39 AM

Re: Steelers vs Broncos Game Day Thread - 10/21/07
For Steelers, Denver might bring with it more good memories than bad

Sunday, October 21, 2007
By Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

The Steelers will return to Denver tonight, where they previously experienced a mile high and then some.

Twenty-one months earlier, they used the Broncos to catapult into the Super Bowl, winning the sixth AFC championship game in their history on the way to their fifth Super Bowl title.

It was their biggest win in a long line of memorable games through the years in Denver.

"We had a great game plan," said Hines Ward, who disrupted what looked like an early interception by Denver cornerback Champ Bailey that could have turned the game the other way.

"We executed better than they did. Our defense played solid and gave us great field position. I think every time we had the ball, we went down and put up points."

The Steelers jumped out to a quick lead and never looked back, running up a 24-3 halftime advantage in a 34-17 victory. Ward said they need to do more of the same in tonight's 8:15 kickoff against a team that does not look much like the one they beat for that AFC championship, including a new quarterback and plenty of different faces on defense.

"Playing on the road, we have to take the crowd out of it and make some plays. One thing about us, we have to score when we get in the red zone -- we want touchdowns, not field goals."

The Steelers have done plenty of early scoring this season, outpacing opponents, 57-6, in the first halves on the way to a 4-1 record. Denver has scored often in the first half as well with 46 points, but the Broncos have allowed 61 in the first halves en route to a 2-3 record, including losses in their past three games.

The AFC title game also was the most memorable for a backup linebacker, whose play that day helped convince the Steelers to make a change at right defensive end. Within two months, they allowed Kimo von Oelhoffen to sign with the Jets as a free agent and they signed his backup, Brett Keisel, to a long-term deal.

"I think that game was the deciding factor,'' Keisel said this week.

Keisel had two sacks, four tackles and a forced fumble against the Broncos that day.

"That was probably my best game, especially being a backup player at the time, being able to get a couple of sacks in that game. That's home for me. It was incredible and something I'll never get."

It was the most recent of memorable Steelers games in Denver that began when the teams played to the first overtime tie in NFL history, 35-35, in 1974. Joe Gilliam was the Steelers' starting quarterback that day and, calling his own plays, passed so often against his coaches' wishes that it prompted Chuck Noll to go back to Terry Bradshaw and onto their first Super Bowl victory.

In 1977, the Broncos ended the Steelers' try for an unprecedented third Super Bowl victory with a playoff win in Denver. The Steelers' frustration in that loss was depicted graphically when Joe Greene punched Denver guard Paul Howard in the stomach because he was continuously holding him.

The Steelers, however, returned the favor in 1984 when, as big underdogs, they upset the Broncos and quarterback John Elway, 24-17, to advance to the AFC championship game in Miami.

"There have been two victories in my life where I was so overwhelmed that I was really emotionally played out, and that was one of them," said Steelers broadcaster Tunch Ilkin, then a starting tackle.

The Steelers had eked into the playoffs that season at 9-7.

"Denver was 13-3 and had a great defense," Ilkin said, "and fans were chanting 'Bring on the Dolphins.' The place was going crazy. The place was so loud, you could actually feel the entire stadium vibrate."

Ilkin and the Steelers enjoyed the dead silence at the end.

Again in 1989, Noll brought his last playoff team to Denver. The Steelers again squeaked in with a 9-7 record and had upset the Oilers in Houston in overtime. Denver was 11-5 and had a bye the previous week.

The Steelers stunned the Broncos by taking an early 10-0 lead and led, 23-17, in the fourth quarter as Merril Hoge gouged Denver's defense for 120 yards on 16 carries.

"Merril had an unbelievable game," said Ilkin, who was still playing right tackle. "Their safety, Dennis Smith, was yelling 'We have to stop Hoag; Hoag is killing us.' I yelled back, it's Hawdj, you idiot."

But Elway, as he did to many others, broke their hearts by engineering a 71-yard touchdown drive with 2:22 left and a 24-23 victory.

"We took control of that game from the outset, we were just pounding them,'' Ilkin said. "Then it was like, all of a sudden, we lost. It was an Elway thing."

Elway still lives in Denver, but the Broncos have a new, young quarterback. It's no longer Jake "The Snake" Plummer, their quarterback in the AFC title game in the 2005 season and the one who beat the Steelers in Heinz Field last November, 31-20.

Jay Cutler is a second-year quarterback who will hand off to a new halfback, Travis Henry. Gone are the many former Cleveland Browns defensive linemen who last played against the Steelers, too.

Also, this ranks among the few times the Steelers actually play in Denver as favorites. They should understand by their own history there that being a favorite in Denver in this series means little.

"I know a lot of people make a big deal out of this team being no good,'' quarterback Ben Roethlisberger said.

"Actually, they're pretty doggone good. Just because they're giving up a lot of rushing yards doesn't mean they're not a good defense. They've got a lot of big-name guys, especially in the secondary, who are going to get after it.

"We're going to need our best game to be able to go out there and be productive."

83-Steelers-43 10-21-2007 04:43 AM

Re: Steelers vs Broncos Game Day Thread - 10/21/07
Steelers plan against Broncos' defense is simple: run
By The Associated Press
Sunday, October 21, 2007

DENVER -- Ben Roethlisberger wasn't tipping Pittsburgh's hand, just stating the obvious.
The Steelers quarterback said he expects to give his right arm a bit of a rest Sunday when the Steelers (4-1) play the Denver Broncos (2-3).

The Broncos are dead last in the league in stopping the run and the Steelers own the NFL's second-best rushing offense.

"I told the wide receivers I'll get my throws in before practice," Roethlisberger said. "It might be the last throwing I do all week."

The Broncos brought in new defensive boss Jim Bates to help revamp the defense, but it hasn't worked so far. The defense has struggled to pick up his system. Denver is giving up 188 yards a game on the ground.

It's the perfect recipe for a big night from Willie Parker, whose career high is 223 yards against Cleveland last season. Parker can't believe the difference in Denver's run defense this season. He was held to 70 yards in a 31-20 loss at Heinz Field last November.

"I'm really surprised because they smashed the run in the previous games we played them," Parker said.

The Broncos' run defense has only smashed into itself. Denver gave up 214 yards to San Diego two weeks ago, a team struggling until then with its run game.

Oakland's LaMont Jordan gained 159 yards on the Broncos and Indy's Joseph Addai had 136.

Parker's explosiveness around the outside could give the Broncos fits. He's sixth in the league in rushing.

"He's a good back," Broncos safety Nick Ferguson said. "Sometimes, when you play in this league, you may not get the recognition you deserve. I think he should."

Steelers coach Mike Tomlin isn't ready to lump Parker in with the league's elite just yet.

"I know he's the right man for us," Tomlin said. "He's a complete back. He's a tough back."

Although Denver hasn't been tough against the run, the Broncos do possess the best pass defense, allowing just 146 yards. No wonder Roethlisberger expects a lot of running plays.

"They're susceptible to the run and we run the ball well, so I'm sure that's kind of what we want to feature," he said.

Broncos coach Mike Shanahan isn't buying it, not with Roethlisberger at the helm. He's thrown nine touchdown passes and three just interceptions so far.

"He's been playing extremely well this year," Shanahan said.

Denver and Pittsburgh, both coming off bye weeks, are traveling in opposite directions. The Steelers are a contender in the AFC, while the Broncos remain in a tailspin, dropping three in a row, although in the weak AFC West, they're only a half-game behind the leaders, Kansas City and San Diego.

Roethlisberger's wary of the Broncos.

"A lot of people ... make a big deal that this team is no good," he said. "Well, actually, they're pretty good. Just because they've given up a lot of rushing yards doesn't make them not a good defense. They've got a lot of big-name guys, especially in the secondary."

But one of those big names in the secondary is banged up. Champ Bailey has a thigh injury.

"It's going to be a challenge for us," Roethlisberger said. "They're a wounded dog."

More than just wounded. Denver has lost offensive linemen Tom Nalen (torn biceps) and Ben Hamilton (concussion) for the season. Tight end Stephen Alexander is also out for the year with a calf injury. Receiver Javon Walker required surgery on his right knee and is out "for a few weeks," Shanahan said.

Walker tore through Pittsburgh last season, catching six passes for 134 yards. He also had a 72-yard touchdown run.

The Broncos' offense was already reeling, especially in the red zone. On 16 trips inside the opponents' 20-yard line, Denver has scored just seven touchdowns.

It won't get any easier this week against a Steelers defense that has yet to give up a touchdown in the first half.

"They got a good defense," said Denver running back Travis Henry, who has 498 yards this season. "It's going to be a hard four quarters, that's what they do."

Broncos quarterback Jay Cutler isn't worried about his team's offensive woes. He said the team hasn't lost its confidence.

"Anytime you are losing, it's tough," Cutler said. "A lot of things are working against us right now, but we have stayed positive as a group and have positive attitudes. We know we are a good offensive team."

83-Steelers-43 10-21-2007 04:44 AM

Re: Steelers vs Broncos Game Day Thread - 10/21/07
Steelers-Broncos key matchup
By Mike Prisuta
Sunday, October 21, 2007

Broncos DT Sam Adams vs. Steelers G Kendall Simmons

He's been around since 1994, and when we say around, we mean a-round. Adams (6-foot-3, 350 pounds) has 44 career sacks in 14 NFL seasons (3.1 per), but he keeps getting jobs because of his potential as a run-stuffer. He's bounced from Seattle to Baltimore to Oakland to Buffalo to Cincinnati, and now to Denver. So far, it hasn't worked out as the Broncos envisioned.

Adams has nine tackles in four games (he was designated inactive for the Broncos' loss on Sept. 30 at Indianapolis), and Denver is last in the NFL in rushing defense, having allowed an average of 187.6 yards per game.

Adams won a Super Bowl in Baltimore in 2000, the year he qualified for the first of his three Pro Bowls. Adams also started for the Raiders in Super Bowl XXXVII (against Mike Tomlin and Tampa Bay).

Adams' last Pro Bowl recognition came in 2004, and you have to wonder what he has left to offer besides girth.

He's not the terror he used to be lining up next to Tony Siragusa in the middle of the Ravens' defense.

STEELERS G KENDALL SIMMONS: He came to training camp having to fight for his job as a four-year starter at right guard. Simmons has emerged with a contract extension, and his spot along the Steelers' offensive line solidified.

At 6-foot-3, 315 pounds, Simmons combines strength with athleticism. His problem in recent seasons has been consistency. The Steelers have split practice snaps between Simmons and Chris Kemoeatu in recent seasons and made no secret of the challenge Kemoeatu presented heading into camp. Simmons responded and has been a key contributor on a line that has been better than advertised while protecting Ben Roethlisberger (for the most part) and opening enough holes for the rushing attack to rank second in the NFL heading to Denver (167.0 per game).

THE MATCHUP: The Steelers will want to run the ball, and to do so they'll have to control Adams. That might require Simmons getting a little help from RT Willie Colon. The Steelers will also have to be alert to recognize and quick to adjust to any unforeseen wrinkles they might see from the Denver defense coming out of a bye week.

The Broncos not altering what they've tried to do on run defense so far would be a surprise, given that Denver has allowed 112, 200, 186, 226 and 214 yards on the ground in five games. The Broncos have given up their share of big plays on the ground while failing to stop everyone they've encountered, including a 74-yard run to San Diego's Michael Turner (10 carries, 147 yards) on Oct. 7 in Denver.

LAST GAME: Seahawks LB Julian Peterson had his moments (10 tackles, a sack, a quarterback hurry and a hellacious stuffing of RB Najeh Davenport at the goal line) on Oct. 10 at Heinz Field. But when that stuff wasn't happening, the Steelers' offense was controlling the ball for agonizingly long stretches and inflicting its will on the Seahawks' defense in a 21-0 win.

touchdownward 10-21-2007 09:32 AM

Re: Steelers vs Broncos Game Day Thread - 10/21/07
It feels like it's been a month since we played.:tt02:
Go Steelers!!!!!

SteelCityMan786 10-21-2007 11:34 AM

Re: Steelers vs Broncos Game Day Thread - 10/21/07
Alright, It's that time again.

Mamaduck43 10-21-2007 11:35 AM

Re: Steelers vs Broncos Game Day Thread - 10/21/07
I am leaving Colorado Springs in about 3+ hours for the game - - it is snowing like crazy right now, and it looks like real Steeler Weather..... Forecast is for snow showers all day and temperature at Invesco at game start should be 33?..........

Just keep your fingers crossed that I-25 stays clear...... We just have to get there - - if we get snowed in, my DD called her dad and told him that we might be bunking at his house after the game!!!!!! Please pray for a thaw!!!!! :flap:

fansince'76 10-21-2007 11:37 AM

Re: Steelers vs Broncos Game Day Thread - 10/21/07

Originally Posted by Mamaduck43 (Post 309852)
I am leaving Colorado Springs in about 3+ hours for the game - - it is snowing like crazy right now, and it looks like real Steeler Weather..... Forecast is for snow showers all day and temperature at Invesco at game start should be 33?..........

Just keep your fingers crossed that I-25 stays clear...... We just have to get there - - if we get snowed in, my DD called her dad and told him that we might be bunking at his house after the game!!!!!! Please pray for a thaw!!!!! :flap:

Be careful on Monument Hill - that stretch of I-25 gets treacherous when it snows.

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