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-   -   The non-existent "vertical game" (http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=20738)

Mosca 10-22-2007 09:38 AM

The non-existent "vertical game"
 
Is it me, or is that "stretching the field" idea not working out so well for us? I understand that it's not a high percentage play. However, it looks like either our timing or our accuracy on the deep pass play isn't what it is for the teams that have TRUE deep threats.

If Roethlisberger is going to be compared favorably to the best, to Brady, P Manning, Farve, and Palmer, and if the Steelers are going to be considered among the elite, I think that it has to be credible that the team can strike long from anywhere, and at any time; and I really don't think the Steelers have that threat.

Anyone else?

Hines0wnz 10-22-2007 11:15 AM

Re: The non-existent "vertical game"
 
I think they have the capability but this is still a run first team. Denver put 8 men in the box last night (as do most Defenses against the Steelers) and dared Ben to beat them with his arm. Now that Hines is back and with the obvious comfort Ben has with both TEs, maybe the passing game will start to blossom which I think will cause all sorts of problems for opposing Ds. This team has loads of potential and maybe last night taught them to not believe the hype.

X-Terminator 10-22-2007 11:43 AM

Re: The non-existent "vertical game"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosca (Post 311276)
Is it me, or is that "stretching the field" idea not working out so well for us? I understand that it's not a high percentage play. However, it looks like either our timing or our accuracy on the deep pass play isn't what it is for the teams that have TRUE deep threats.

If Roethlisberger is going to be compared favorably to the best, to Brady, P Manning, Farve, and Palmer, and if the Steelers are going to be considered among the elite, I think that it has to be credible that the team can strike long from anywhere, and at any time; and I really don't think the Steelers have that threat.

Anyone else?

The Steelers definitely have the threat to strike from anywhere on the field. It just doesn't work too well when the OL doesn't give the QB enough time to throw the deep ball accurately.

tony hipchest 10-22-2007 11:48 AM

Re: The non-existent "vertical game"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosca (Post 311276)

Anyone else?

did you see the 2 touchdowns randy moss caught yesterday? 2 balls that brady had absolutely no business throwing. moss was draped in 2 defenders. moss made both catches though. ben made the exact same 2 throws to holmes vs. the bills and again last night and the ball was picked off.

now holmes definitely isnt a moss or a burress. hes shown he can stretch the field, but just hasnt really shown off any of his vertical leaping skills or proven he can consistantly climb the ladder over defenders.

Atlanta Dan 10-22-2007 12:13 PM

Re: The non-existent "vertical game"
 
Part of the problem is that when Ben gets the green light to throw deep he insists on throwing it regadless of the coverage, so Arians may be reluctant to dial up a turnover by making that call.

I thought he had broken his habit of consistently throwing deep reagrdless of teh coverege, but the forced INT into double coverage on Holmes was a repeat of a forced throw into double coverage in the Bills game (after which the deep ball disappeared).

The INT was just one example of Madden's observation the Steelers seemed out of sync in the first half last night, which I attribute to Arians' daffy throw first game plan.

Mosca 10-22-2007 01:14 PM

Re: The non-existent "vertical game"
 
XTerm, I don't see that. I see the ability to throw deep, and to run deep, but I don't see the ability to connect the two. I don't think teams see us as having any extra ability to score in thaat way. Denver was sticking 8 in the box all night; if you have a viable deep threat, then there is no 8 in the box and the running game works.

Tony, Moss is unreal. But even Wes Welker and Donte Stallworth are deep threats for the Pats. They have the accuracy and timing down better than we do. No one can convince me that their running game is more talented than ours; but because other teams have to cover the entire field, on every play, they can beat you with every weapon in their arsenal. They run the ball as effectively as we do because they pass it so much better.

The ability to do EVERYTHING better is the key to being able to do whatever you want, whenever you want to. There was nothing wrong with last night's "pass first" game plan, other than we didn't execute well enough in the first half to pull it off; but it worked really well in the second half when they stacked against the run. When they went into pass defense, Parker broke some nice gains. But because our passing game wasn't credible for the first 40 minutes or so, the run got stuffed.

Whether it's that we can't hit the deep guy, or like AD says that when the deep guy is covered we don't hit the short guy; we have to make that play credible. If I were a defensive coordinator, I would accept the risk of Roethlisberger scrambling against the increased possibility that he'll throw an interception, or fumble, or get sacked. Or get injured. Is the line a part of the problem? Of course. But all that means is that it has to be part of the solution, too; the problem still is the same, that teams can set up a certain way and handle us if we can't make the big yardage plays.

Big D 10-22-2007 01:29 PM

Re: The non-existent "vertical game"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosca (Post 311276)
Is it me, or is that "stretching the field" idea not working out so well for us? I understand that it's not a high percentage play. However, it looks like either our timing or our accuracy on the deep pass play isn't what it is for the teams that have TRUE deep threats.

If Roethlisberger is going to be compared favorably to the best, to Brady, P Manning, Farve, and Palmer, and if the Steelers are going to be considered among the elite, I think that it has to be credible that the team can strike long from anywhere, and at any time; and I really don't think the Steelers have that threat.

Anyone else?

I couldnt agree with you more. Ben isnt Carson, Brady or manning. We need to go back to steeler football. Run first.... We faced the worst run defense in the league and we got pass freaking happy.I think between davenport and parker they should have had 40 carries between the two of them. It's funny to me when willie struggles how quickly we are to abandon the run. But yet when benny was fumbling and throwing ints in the first half we kept throwing. I think that we should have hired a proven expierienced offensive coordinator

Atlanta Dan 10-22-2007 01:46 PM

Re: The non-existent "vertical game"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Big D (Post 311453)
I think that we should have hired a proven expierienced offensive coordinator

Well, Arians is "experienced" - unfortunately he experienced being fired as O-coordinator by the Browns.:dang:

FWIW Tomlin stayed in house with both the defensive coordiantor (IMO the Rooneys were assured by Tomlin before his hire that LeBeau was staying) and o-coordiantor (although what Arians specifically brings to the table escapes me). Maybe as a young coach of a competitive team he wanted soem continuity.

Tomlin is still finding his way - he may very well find his way to a new coordinator in 2008 (his comment to Andrea Kramer at the half last night that the Steelers needed to run more indicaed to me that posters here were not the only ones ticked off by the game plan). Until then he may have asit down with arians and tell him that pass first is not the way to go with an O-line having protection issues as well as good (not great) WRs and a good (not great) QB.

Big D 10-22-2007 01:50 PM

Re: The non-existent "vertical game"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlanta Dan (Post 311461)
Well, Arians is "experienced" - unfortunately he experienced being fired as O-coordinator by the Browns.:dang:

FWIW Tomlin stayed in house with both the defensive coordiantor (IMO the Rooneys were assured by Tomlin before his hire that LeBeau was staying) and o-coordiantor (although what Arians specifically brings to the table escapes me). Maybe as a young coach of a competitive team he wanted soem continuity.

Tomlin is still finding his way - he may very well find his way to a new coordinator in 2008 (his comment to Andrea Kramer at the half last night that the Steelers needed to run more indicaed to me that posters here were not the only ones ticked off by the game plan). Until then he may have asit down with arians and tell him that pass first is not the way to go with an O-line having protection issues as well as good (not great) WRs and a good (not great) QB.

yeah I know he is experienced but he was absolute garbage in cleveland.

moedap 10-22-2007 02:36 PM

Re: The non-existent "vertical game"
 
The deep ball has to be set up with P.A. or short passes with our Steelers due to the small receivers. Going deep using double moves is not going to work if you havent set the D up with short passes.

Footballoutsiders.com has a great article on how Indy sets up its passing game. Out of the Singleback formation they run a lot of stretches and off tackle runs which gets the LBs moving horizontally. Once they get the LB's conditioned to look for the stretches they will hit you with P.A. to WR or Tightend in the middle of the field. Now you get the safties concentrating on the middle of the field when oops Manning will hit Harrison or Wayne on a fly. The point is each preceding play sets up the next play. Where Arians seems to be calling a mixture of passing plays out of different formations with the intent of appearing unpredictable.


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